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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and what kind of

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Speaker 1: stuff I never told you are protection by? I heard you,

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Speaker 1: and today we are talking about a Greek mythological figure, Cassandra,

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Speaker 1: who's had a huge impact and it continues to resonate

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Speaker 1: to this day. I know we've talked about this before, Samantha,

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Speaker 1: but were you Did you ever get into Greek mythology?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so all of the encyclopedias or like Britannicas or

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Speaker 2: any of those, especially our children would have great myths

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Speaker 2: as like one of them, and I would read through

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Speaker 2: all of those. I was very fascinated with Greek myths,

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Speaker 2: Roman myths, which kind of had a whole tie into it.

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Speaker 2: So yes, I may have forgotten though quite a bit

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Speaker 2: of it though, But when you remind me like, oh.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, did you know about Cassandra?

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Speaker 2: I did not. I did not until I came into

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Speaker 2: you and said my partner said this phrase, and I

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Speaker 2: just stared at him and I was like, who's Cassandra?

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Speaker 2: And he said do you not know about this saying?

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Speaker 2: And I was like no, And.

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Speaker 1: I immediately was like here's Ally.

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Speaker 2: Yep, yep.

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Speaker 1: Yes. So this is a topic that is inspired by

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Speaker 1: Samantha's partner who then asked me and then I was like, yes,

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Speaker 1: let's do it. You can see I would say relevant

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Speaker 1: past episodes are why didn't you believe her? That I

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Speaker 1: did with Friend of the show and at that time

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Speaker 1: to post and at current moment host over on the

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Speaker 1: other podcast, I do save her and it was all

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Speaker 1: about yeah, why it was tying in the kind of

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Speaker 1: the politics of not believing women with this history that

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Speaker 1: we see in media. Also you can see the episode

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Speaker 1: we did, a book club episode we did on the

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Speaker 1: book Circe related all right, So yes, I, through your partner,

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Speaker 1: have learned that I guess this is coming back this

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Speaker 1: idea of I don't want to be a Cassandra or

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Speaker 1: I'm tired of being a Cassandra. This isn't new, but

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Speaker 1: it's having any resurgence, and we will talk about that

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Speaker 1: and why I think it is at the end. But yes,

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Speaker 1: I was big into Greek mythology as well. But I

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Speaker 1: also have told this story of many times watched the

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Speaker 1: Scream movies when I was far too young to be

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Speaker 1: watching them, and the second Scream movie when Sydney goes

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Speaker 1: to college, she is an actress and she is in

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Speaker 1: this play where she plays Sondra Yes, and she has

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Speaker 1: this whole scary scene where she foresees the fall of

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Speaker 1: Troy and there's lollble, lights are going wild and everybody's

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Speaker 1: wearing masks, and then of course she sees ghost Face

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Speaker 1: in there, you know. But she's saying, like, no one

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Speaker 1: believes me. I'm seeing all these horrible things and no

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Speaker 1: one believes me, And so of course I had to

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Speaker 1: look it up. I had to learn this Cassandra. So

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Speaker 1: that's the first time I remember learning about her. She

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Speaker 1: the play Cassandra is also the play the last play

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Speaker 1: that happens in the Last of US two in the

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Speaker 1: video game before everything shut down. In the show, it's

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Speaker 1: Sick Habit, which is a made up band in the universe,

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Speaker 1: but in the game it is the play Cassandra is

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Speaker 1: what is on their Kind of Theater home based Marquee.

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Speaker 1: Then just this year, Taylor No It's twenty thirty five.

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Speaker 1: Just in twenty twenty four, Taylor Swift released the song

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Speaker 1: Cassandra and I was going to read some lyrics. You're

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Speaker 1: gonna get some song lyrics.

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Speaker 2: In here, excited. I'm not going to sing.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to sing. This song has been stuck

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Speaker 1: in my head though, since I've been doing this research.

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Speaker 1: So when the first stones thrown, they're screaming, and the

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Speaker 1: street there's a raging riot. When it's burned, the they're shrieking.

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Speaker 1: When the truth comes out, it's quiet. So they killed

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Speaker 1: Cassandra first because she feared the worst and tried to

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Speaker 1: tell the town. So they set my life in flames.

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Speaker 1: I regret to say, do you believe me now? And

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Speaker 1: then there's also an Abba song. There's actually several songs,

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Speaker 1: but these are the two that I know. Yes, So

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Speaker 1: here's some some quotes from the Abba song, pity Cassandra

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Speaker 1: that no one believed you, But then again, you were

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Speaker 1: lost from the start. Now we must suffer and sell

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Speaker 1: our secrets, bargain, playing smart, aching in our hearts. Sorry, Cassandra,

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Speaker 1: I misunderstand now. The last day is dawning. Some of

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Speaker 1: us wanted, but none of us would listen to the

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Speaker 1: words of warning. But on the darkest of nights, nobody

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Speaker 1: knew how to fight, and we were caught in our sleep. Son,

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you don't know the story of Cassandra,

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Speaker 1: I feel like you're probably getting a vibe here already, right, Yes,

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Speaker 1: I would also say just this theme is relevant in

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Speaker 1: horror movies, Like eighty percent horror movies has something that

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Speaker 1: goes along these lines. Also, this brought back a memory

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Speaker 1: for me. One of my best friends, uh we in

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Speaker 1: eighth grade, we tried to sneak into the R rated

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Speaker 1: film Troy.

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Speaker 2: And none of all films that one ge.

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Speaker 1: Was wearing a middle school track shirt. And so the

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Speaker 1: person selling the tickets was like, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: no no. And so then we said mean girls and

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Speaker 1: bought tickets for that, and then we went to go

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Speaker 1: watch Troy. But you know, looking back, I'm like, wow,

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Speaker 1: but my whole life I could have diverged, but I

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Speaker 1: looked it up. I haven't seen that movie since then.

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Speaker 1: Cassandra is not in it. Yes, yes, But with all

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Speaker 1: of this this clear impact that Cassandra has had on

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Speaker 1: media on me, let's talk about the history and the myth.

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Speaker 1: So in Greek mythology, Cassandra was an intelligent, brave, mortal

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Speaker 1: princess of the ancient, powerful, wealthy city state of Troy,

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Speaker 1: which was located in what is now Turkey, which is

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Speaker 1: a real city by the way, you can look it up,

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Speaker 1: and was the process of Apollo who gifted her with

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Speaker 1: the ability to accurately and precisely predict the future. She

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Speaker 1: features heavily and several tragedies, including essuelas Agamemnon, which shelves

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Speaker 1: into her prophecies and the events leading to the fall

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Speaker 1: of Troy and her death, Euripides The Trojan Women, which

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Speaker 1: highlighted the pain and suffering of Trojan women after Troy's

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Speaker 1: fall and the injustice done to Cassandra specifically, and then

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Speaker 1: Virgil's I Need, which described the fall of Troy, fate

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Speaker 1: and Cassandra's role and all of it. She's been in

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Speaker 1: a lot of other things from that time, but those

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Speaker 1: were the three big ones. She was the daughter of

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Speaker 1: the last king and Queen of Troy, King Priam and

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Speaker 1: Queen Hecuba. Stepping aside a bit. Priam's father angered the

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Speaker 1: gods by not repaying them for building the wall around

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Speaker 1: Troy and other things, so they killed him and the

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Speaker 1: rest of his family, leaving only Priam alive. Priam went

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Speaker 1: on to have a boatload of children, perhaps up to

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Speaker 1: one hundred, including Cassandra. Like he was like, my whole

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Speaker 1: family died, I'm going to have this huge family and

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Speaker 1: hopefully someone will make it out. He also fathered Prince Paris,

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Speaker 1: who set off the Trojan War by running away with

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Speaker 1: or kidnapping Helen. Depending on what you read and how

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Speaker 1: you interpret it, t Yeah, yes, the wife of the

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Speaker 1: king of Sparta. So he basically, oh gosh, this is

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Speaker 1: such a complicated family story to tell, but he all right,

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Speaker 1: let me step back. I'll get to that a second.

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Speaker 1: Depending on what you read, Cassandra desperately tried to stop Paris,

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Speaker 1: like begging him, please do not go to Sparta, do

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Speaker 1: not have any contact with Helen, and definitely do not

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Speaker 1: bring her back to Troy. In some versions, she even

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Speaker 1: requested he be killed as an infant because she knew

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Speaker 1: his actions would lead to the downfall of Troy. Of course,

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Speaker 1: he didn't listen to her, and everything she foresaw came

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Speaker 1: to fruition. His abduction, slash elopement of Helen to Troy

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Speaker 1: led to the Spartans laying siege on the city. The

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Speaker 1: Trojans held off the Spartans for nine years, but the

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Speaker 1: whole area around them was kind of getting decimated and

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Speaker 1: they were taking in prisoners, and then they set up

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Speaker 1: this trap that led to the final blow and the

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Speaker 1: fall of Troy. Hector was another of Cassandra's siblings, the

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Speaker 1: most skilled warrior in Troy until Achilles killed him. This

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Speaker 1: is one of those episodes where I'm like, I just

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Speaker 1: don't have time to explain the history and who everyone is.

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Speaker 1: I feel like people know Achilles, at least they know

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Speaker 1: Achilles heel, but that's kind of a big that's kind

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Speaker 1: of a big deal, and this all kind of happened

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Speaker 1: after Hector killed achilles friend and possible lover, Patrick Collis.

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Speaker 1: Achilles was so infuriated and full of vengeance after that

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Speaker 1: that he slays Hector, drags his body around behind his

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Speaker 1: chariot in front of the walls of Troy, refusing to

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Speaker 1: return him to a failing for a proper burial as

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Speaker 1: was custom. However, Priam snuck into the Greek camp and

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Speaker 1: convinced Achilles to turn over his son's body, and Paris

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Speaker 1: later kills Achilles. Oh my goodness. Cassandra also has a

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Speaker 1: twin brother, Helenus, who had the power of prophecy too.

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Speaker 1: In some versions, Apollo gave it to him as well,

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Speaker 1: and other versions Cassandra taught him, but people believed him.

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Speaker 1: They did not believe her. He may have got his

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Speaker 1: powers from Polo, but there's a later version where they

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Speaker 1: both got their powers after they were left in Apollo's temple,

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Speaker 1: his babies and a serpent licked their ears clean so

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Speaker 1: that they could hear things more clearly and divine things

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Speaker 1: from nature. Most of the stuff I read said that

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Speaker 1: came much like that was somebody having fun much later

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Speaker 1: after they original were written. But I did want to

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Speaker 1: mention it because it does come up quite a bit.

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Speaker 1: And if you're already like, wait, you're giving several facts

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Speaker 1: that don't align, yes, because these are very old, right,

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Speaker 1: and people had a lot of versions of them.

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Speaker 2: So right, and again like the Roman gods were similar

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Speaker 2: and had different stories but had like again similar that

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Speaker 2: they're same with different ideals, names and places, so like,

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Speaker 2: there's so many things. Because I remember being really confused.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, wait this, I've heard this story before, but

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Speaker 2: it's this and realizing it's switched up, so that, yeah,

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Speaker 2: the narrative is very different.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's just slightly different enough to be like hmm, okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: but that let us get back to the generally told version,

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Speaker 1: because this is Greek mythology. Unfortunately, for Cassandra, she was

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Speaker 1: very beautiful, perhaps the most beautiful of Priam's numerous daughters,

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Speaker 1: which in summer countings, is why Apollo gave her the

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Speaker 1: gift in the first place. At the time, such a

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Speaker 1: gift would have been highly revered because you know, it's

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Speaker 1: the time of ancient Greece. There's a lot of stuff

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Speaker 1: that wasn't understood. You have these guides. If you had

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Speaker 1: the power of prophecy and could see what was coming,

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Speaker 1: that would be a really valuable thing. She rejected sooner

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Speaker 1: after suitor incruding Apollo who made these advances towards her,

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Speaker 1: and when she rejected those advances, he accepted completely gracefully. Nope,

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Speaker 1: just kidding. He tried to take back the gift, but

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Speaker 1: discovered that gods can't take back gifts like that. It

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Speaker 1: was like a little contract like no no returns. So

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Speaker 1: instead he cursed her so no one would believe her prophecies.

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Speaker 1: It's a real, real class act. Yeah, so emotional. Yep,

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Speaker 1: her gift then becomes a curse if you don't know again,

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Speaker 1: Apollo is the son of Zeus, the king of the gods,

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Speaker 1: and he is the god of white poetry and music

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Speaker 1: and prophecy. A bunch of other stuff, but those main things.

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Speaker 1: Some recountings detail how Cassandra considered Apollo's romantic advances at first,

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Speaker 1: like she was sort of thinking about it and maybe

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Speaker 1: even encouraged them, but ultimately decided they were better off

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Speaker 1: not being together romantically. And some other versions she agreed

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Speaker 1: to pursue romance with him in order to get the gift,

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Speaker 1: but then fact out I would say, in any case

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Speaker 1: he's dead.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, yeah.

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Speaker 1: I agree, And I mean if you just sit and

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Speaker 1: think about how terrible this is like to know what's

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Speaker 1: coming and have no one believe you. It was a

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Speaker 1: really brutal curse, and it worked. No one believed Cassandra's

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Speaker 1: vision of the future, ones that she knew were true.

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Speaker 1: People speculated that she'd lost her mind and may have

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Speaker 1: even imprisoned her at one point. Still, she kept trying

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Speaker 1: to convince people of the truth of her prophecies, and

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Speaker 1: this was particularly painful when it did come to some

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Speaker 1: of these huge tragedies that she foresaw that could have

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Speaker 1: been prevented if people believed her. And yes, one of

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Speaker 1: the most disastrous cases was when she foresaw the destruction

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Speaker 1: of Troy. She foresaw the Trojan Horse, but no one

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Speaker 1: believed her, and Troy fell, along with a lot of

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Speaker 1: her family. And I mean when it fell, almost everybody

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Speaker 1: was slaughtered. Hardly anybody escaped. She tried desperately to stop

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Speaker 1: the Trojans from allowing this giant wooden horse within their walls,

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Speaker 1: knowing it was full of Spartan soldiers, the best of

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Speaker 1: their soldiers, but no one listened. She took an axe

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Speaker 1: to the horse. The Trojans, who believed it was a

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Speaker 1: gift of surrender from the Spartans and a sign of

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Speaker 1: their victory, stopped her. But again she was right and

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Speaker 1: Troy was destroyed. Things did not get better after that

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Speaker 1: for Cassandra. She knew the destruction was coming, so she

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Speaker 1: took shelter in Athena's temple, clinging to the statue of

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Speaker 1: Athena for protection, but was discovered by Spartan soldiers. Of

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Speaker 1: the people who found her was this soldier named Ajax

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Speaker 1: the Lesser, who was second only to Achilles and his

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Speaker 1: abilities as a soldier. He dragged her from the altar

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Speaker 1: and viciously raped her oh why yeah in some versions,

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Speaker 1: in front of her father before they killed him. Athena

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Speaker 1: later enlisted the help of Poseidon got at the sea

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Speaker 1: for revenge on Cassandra's path because she was taking shelter

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Speaker 1: under Athena's protection, and he violated that. And Poseidon sank

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Speaker 1: a good portion of the Greek fleet and killed Ajax

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Speaker 1: especially Ajax survived the sinking. He was clinging to a rock,

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Speaker 1: and Persuiden was like nope and threw the trident at

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Speaker 1: the rock and killed him. This is part of the

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Speaker 1: story told in the Odyssey, by the way rough Sea's part.

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Speaker 1: Ajax's abduction of Cassandra is featured in a lot of

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Speaker 1: art art uh So. The Greek king Agamemnon, who was

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Speaker 1: the victor in the Trojan War, took her as a concubine,

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Speaker 1: eventually giving birth. She gave birth to twins from him.

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Speaker 1: When she tried to warn him that they would die

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Speaker 1: if they returned to Greece, that they would be murdered,

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Speaker 1: he didn't believe her, and the prophecy came true. Agamemnon's

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Speaker 1: wife Clytemnestra and her lover Aegis. This killed them both

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Speaker 1: and the twins. Clytemnestra was angry that Agamemnon had sacrificed

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Speaker 1: their daughter to the gods, and that he had taken

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Speaker 1: Cassandra as a concubine, which I feel was not on her,

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Speaker 1: but okay. Depictions of her either showcase her beauty or

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Speaker 1: her absolute despair, because that is where her story ends.

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Speaker 1: Some even show her ripping her hair out because no

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Speaker 1: one believes what she has to say. And I would

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Speaker 1: also like to know how much of this as men

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Speaker 1: or men the gods wanting to possess a beautiful young woman,

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Speaker 1: Apollo mad at being rejected by a beautiful woman, Paris

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Speaker 1: starts a war by kidnapping Slash running off with Helen

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Speaker 1: the most beautiful mortal Woman, which was a prize he

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Speaker 1: chose from the gods. That was the part I didn't

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Speaker 1: get into earlier. But he had this whole thing where

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Speaker 1: he could have chosen three prizes, and the one he

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Speaker 1: chose was I want to be with the most beautiful woman.

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Speaker 1: Agamemnon enslaves Cassandra. Helenus goes on to be king. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: Cassandra's story did resonate with many, and it is one

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Speaker 1: of the most memorable. The tragedy of someone who warns

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Speaker 1: us of future danger, who is ignored, who is silenced

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Speaker 1: until it is too late is unfortunately one that many

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Speaker 1: can relate to or have seen, raising your voice, ringing

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Speaker 1: that warning bell, trying to protect the ones you love,

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Speaker 1: knowing what is coming, and not being able to do

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Speaker 1: anything to stop it. Like it's just a really visceral,

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Speaker 1: terrifying feeling, and I can see it would make you

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Speaker 1: feel like ripping out your hair and feel like you're

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Speaker 1: losing your minds, which brings us to the Cassandra complex.

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Speaker 1: So nowadays there is something called the Cassandra complex, our

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Speaker 1: Cassandra syndrome, or Cassandra phenomenon which describe situations or valid

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Speaker 1: warnings were dismissed and ignored. French philosopher Gaston Bechlar was

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Speaker 1: the first to use the term in nineteen forty nine.

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Speaker 1: Over time, it has been used in all kinds of contexts, politics, business,

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Speaker 1: and even things like climate change, where despite substantial evidence,

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Speaker 1: warnings are ignored. This is also true in areas where

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Speaker 1: economists predict recessions are people in tech raise questions about tech,

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Speaker 1: and then are accused of holding everyone back, like preventing progress.

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Speaker 1: When it comes to psychology, it isn't a formal diagnosis,

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Speaker 1: but it is often used to describe someone who feels

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Speaker 1: an impending sense of doom and can do nothing to

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Speaker 1: change it, and no one's listening to them. It is

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Speaker 1: an isolating, frightening, frustrating feeling, and just not a good feeling.

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Speaker 2: I've seen it being used in context to like no

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Speaker 2: typical people trying to talk about their partners if they

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Speaker 2: are not if they have neurodivergent diagnosis but it's not

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Speaker 2: been diagnosed yet, and no one believes the sentence. They

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Speaker 2: call that Cassandra syndrome, Like, wait, you're dignosing them from

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Speaker 2: noticing other diagnoses. I don't understand, which is an interesting concept.

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Speaker 1: It is, and it relates to my next point. Eh.

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Speaker 1: On a more personal level, you may have seen this

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Speaker 1: kind of thrown around when you're warning a friend about

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Speaker 1: a toxic relationship and they don't listen to you. Or

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Speaker 1: as a parent, you might get warnings about your child

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Speaker 1: that you dismiss because it's uncomfortable ignoring medical advice or

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Speaker 1: early symptoms of something. It could be like way more

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Speaker 1: complicated than that, obviously, because the medical field we get

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Speaker 1: misdiagnoses all the time, but that kind of idea, these

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Speaker 1: are still instances that could be labeled or fall under

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Speaker 1: the Cassandra complex. There are a lot of reasons people

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Speaker 1: ignore warnings with evidence, a lot of evidence even to

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Speaker 1: back them up, bias, not trusting sources, doubting the credibility

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Speaker 1: of sources, group think, social pressure, just don't want to

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Speaker 1: deal with it, vibe and not thinking about the future,

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Speaker 1: and dismissing someone who is marginalized, which Cassandra. She would

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Speaker 1: have been more privileged as a pretty princess, but she

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Speaker 1: would have been marginalized at the time. There's also something

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Speaker 1: called the Apollo archetype, which is sort of the antithesis

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Speaker 1: that basically entails someone who is all about being reasonable.

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Speaker 1: So in this case, sort of like Helenus is making

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Speaker 1: these prophecies, but they're like he's reasonable, though Cassandra does

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Speaker 1: it like, oh, that's a hysterical woman that cannot be

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Speaker 1: And she did get a lot of she got a

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Speaker 1: lot of that kind of flack of she is a

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Speaker 1: woman who's got doo any emotions. We need to keep

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Speaker 1: her behind closed doors and we don't need to keep

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Speaker 1: her quiet. Uh huh. But she really she to her credit,

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Speaker 1: and the real tragedy of it is she never stopped trying.

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Speaker 1: She never stopped trying to prevent these things and to

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Speaker 1: warn people. It's just a shame that she had to

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Speaker 1: go through all of that and she knew, like, can

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Speaker 1: you imagine seeing your death coming and knowing like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, why won't they just listen? Right right? The

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Speaker 1: death of your family. There is also another rabbit hole

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Speaker 1: you can go down if you would like, you can.

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Speaker 1: It's called real life Cassandra's. So, for instance, there are

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Speaker 1: diplomats who tried to stop war. There's several cases of that,

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Speaker 1: economists who tried to stop the sessions. Officials who tried

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Speaker 1: to warn about COVID.

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Speaker 2: Nobody listened, and they're still demonized.

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Speaker 1: Yes, sorry, oh my gosh, I'm just trying to tell

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Speaker 1: you what's happening.

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Speaker 2: This is what's happening. Can you do today? Is liberal

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Speaker 2: agenda to make us wear masks? Are right?

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Speaker 1: What a power? Also, somebody who just leaves like a

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Speaker 1: big wooden horse outside, open it outside.

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Speaker 2: Also like what is it like? Why would you like

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Speaker 2: this so much? That's a wooden horse, sir, Yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: not like it's marble.

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Speaker 1: We don't need to bring it in, leave it out.

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Speaker 1: There was no need, no need at all. Then, you know.

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Speaker 1: Also historically we do have hysteria, which was the thing,

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Speaker 1: hysterical emotional woman that we don't believe. It was a

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Speaker 1: thing in the sense that people thought that's what was

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Speaker 1: going on or it's not really what was going on.

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Speaker 1: And then presently things like not believing women when it

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Speaker 1: comes to health or anything or anything, right, which brings

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Speaker 1: me to the next one, hashtag me too. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: was another example where for so long women have been saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, hey, this is a real problem, and then

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Speaker 1: when it finally unleashes online becomes this big movement, it's

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Speaker 1: a witch hunt. It's all these women who are trying

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Speaker 1: to like punish men.

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Speaker 2: Can't be nice or we're gonna be told that we're

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Speaker 2: being harassing. Sir, we know what nice is. This is

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Speaker 2: not it?

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Speaker 1: No, no, it's not. And do you think this is fun?

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Speaker 1: Like this is a miserable, painful experience.

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Speaker 2: Right, The fact that mostly women are being ostracized and

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Speaker 2: fired or being pushed out because they have been harassed

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Speaker 2: and actually wanted to stop it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and we have, unfortunately, I mean, in some

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Speaker 1: ways fortunately, I guess, but in a lot of ways unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: we have some pretty high profile sexual assault plus a

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Speaker 1: lot of other thing cases going on right now in

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Speaker 1: the US.

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Speaker 2: I mean, people like pe did it just got Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And a.

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Speaker 1: Lot of the discourse around it is like look at

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Speaker 1: these women, right, but uh kind of another example of

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Speaker 1: that is whistleblers. I would say, who will say, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is a this is a real problem and are

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Speaker 1: just completely often completely ignored, are silenced. And this is

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Speaker 1: a bigger issue than for this episode, but it is

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Speaker 1: really related this whole idea of like dismantling expertise when

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Speaker 1: it's inconvenient. So when your expertise is saying I can

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Speaker 1: go about living my life, I love that. That's great.

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Speaker 1: I don't have to make any changes. But when it's

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Speaker 1: saying this is a real problem you need we all

396
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 1: need to make a change, then it's oh, who do

397
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Speaker 1: you think you are? What do you really know?

398
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 2: Right? Choosing much change doesn't exist? What are you talking about?

399
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Speaker 2: Big corporations? Love me, They're not polluting the world if

400
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 2: only you would recycle?

401
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 1: Right, it snowed last year, can't.

402
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 2: Be it's so cold now for a day? Yes?

403
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Speaker 1: Oh, but I mean that's also it's frustrating in terms

404
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:49,479
Speaker 1: of the skills, like having these skills are this knowledge

405
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: and seeing these consequences of ignoring these experiences, especially of

406
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Speaker 1: marginalized people. It's not that no one and can't understand,

407
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 1: because some people paint it as like I read an

408
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Speaker 1: article about Cassandra that was wondering if maybe we've painted

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00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 1: Cassandras into too much of a like no one can

410
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 1: be on their level. But it's not that because they're

411
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: kind of they're breaking it down for you. That's like

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00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 1: their goals to get you to understand.

413
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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: But people just a lot of people, for one reason

415
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 1: or another don't listen or don't want to listen. And

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Speaker 1: that's been a long that's that's an old idea that

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Speaker 1: why do we tear down people who have knowledge? We've

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Speaker 1: done that forever and then it's sort of a shoot

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Speaker 1: the messenger type thing of blaming experts when their predictions

420
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 1: come true. Right, And some people were even talking about,

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Speaker 1: you know, why would you want to be a Cassandra

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Speaker 1: in this case because keeping your mouth shut would be

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Speaker 1: better because you'd be punished for being a Cassandra. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: all killed or killed m yep. And a lot of Cassandra's,

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Speaker 1: especially women in marginalized folks, have been buriased but that

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00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,439
Speaker 1: I mean, there are a lot of reasons why I

427
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: think it's resonating now. I think that marginalized folks feel

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Speaker 1: that they've been sounding alarmed for years and years and

429
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: years and years, and this burden of truth and this

430
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: kind of dealing with this whole people being annoyed. I

431
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: think kind of a backlash about do I and stuff

432
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 1: might be an example of this, but being annoyed, like

433
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: you're bringing too much attention to this thing. It's not

434
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: that big of a deal, but it is and it

435
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: has been. And then there's this sort of other idea

436
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 1: of people getting really angry. Do we not know this

437
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: when people did know this? Yeah, they've been saying it.

438
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 2: Right, we've been saying the fact that they're going after

439
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 2: trans people and just because you're not trans doesn't mean

440
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 2: it's not going to fall on you. The same thing

441
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 2: as they're going after the black community, and just because

442
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 2: you're not black doesn't mean they're not coming after you next.

443
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 2: It's kind of the same thing as they're going after

444
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 2: immigrant people. At first, it was the Muslim community saying

445
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 2: they're trying to protect the you know, from terrorists because

446
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 2: we have so many bad players. I'm saying that sarcastically

447
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 2: that they use that, and the next like they win

448
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 2: the Latino votes, saying that, yeah, those are the bad

449
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 2: people for sure. For sure they are or like queer

450
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 2: people for bad. And then they're like, oh wait, they're

451
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 2: gonna get us too, okay, and the other minorities, including

452
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 2: Asian communities, who are like, but we're fine because you know,

453
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 2: we're the model minority and they're getting just as many

454
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 2: people being deported out. You're like, ah, that was the

455
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 2: Cassandra call. You're not listening to when they come for all.

456
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: They will eventually when they come for one, they're going

457
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 2: to come for all, like it's it's happening and no

458
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 2: one's listening. Yeah, they really think that they're protected somehow

459
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 2: or it doesn't really affect them. That's the other part

460
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 2: is that like as where they just not believe them.

461
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 2: They just don't believe it's going to affect them personally.

462
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: That's true. And of course I got to put in

463
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: another another NERD reference because I just do this. I

464
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: was thinking about this in another context because I feel

465
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: like there's this thing I've talked about it before called

466
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: the Iceman list, which is basically like if you look

467
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: back at a lot of a lot of eighties movies,

468
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: the villain kind of maybe they were a jerk but

469
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: was kind of right, Yeah, but they're they're very painted

470
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: as villainous. But a lot of times it's like you know,

471
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: the EPA guy and Ghostbusters saying, you know, hey, this

472
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: is not this is bad right, or like it's Goose

473
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: in top gun me, like this is not safe. I

474
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: guess what happened to Goose? Like there. I think there's

475
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: also a villainizing of Cassandra's in that way. But I

476
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 1: also just have to mention, Okay, there's this character name

477
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: Fives from Star Wars. Okay, so he he was a

478
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: Clone and he the Clones all had these chips in

479
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: their heads and that's how the Jedi were pretty much

480
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: wiped out because they couldn't sense what was coming in

481
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: the forest because the Clones didn't sense what was coming

482
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: in the force because they didn't know they had these

483
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: chips in their head. Right, But Fives found out about

484
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: is from the Clone Wars show. Oh okay, yes, but

485
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: I have a friend who just texted me it was like,

486
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: I cannot believe you've turned me into this Star Wars person.

487
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 1: And now I can't unsee all the parallels in our society.

488
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: And I was like, I know, But anyway, fives he

489
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: learns and he figures it out, and no one listens

490
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: to him, and they think he's like this big conspiracy theorist.

491
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: But his friends and Anakin Skywalker and Obi Wan Kenobi

492
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: also as friends, they're like, you know something, something is here.

493
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: We should he's a friend of ours, even if he's

494
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: this is a conspiracy theory. Something's clearly wrong, and they

495
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: try to help him, and then of course the old

496
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: Emperor Palpatine kills him. But he was he was sounding

497
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: that alarm and if if he had gotten that message out,

498
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: things could have gone very differently and probably much better.

499
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: So that's the peril of not listening to.

500
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 2: Right, this is the we live in this peril, you know,

501
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 2: we do.

502
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: We do. Unfortunately, Also, as we've touched on the dangers

503
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: of being of voice of dissent, I think a lot

504
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: of people are worried about that, and so that's why

505
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: Cassandra is resonating how it feels to not be believed

506
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: is a really miserable feeling, especially if you share something

507
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: painful or maybe something you never shared so I think

508
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons. And having that feeling of

509
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: knowing what's coming and not being able to do about it,

510
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: like that helpless feeling that I can't stop this. That

511
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: just I think all of us are feeling that right now,

512
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: a lot of us, at least powerful people abusing power,

513
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: so you know, Apollo doing what he did, especially when

514
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: someone refuses to fall in line or give them with

515
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: what they want or feel entitled to because they gave

516
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: you a gift. AI and disinformation and misinformation I think now,

517
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: I think we've we've got a lot of like I

518
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: don't know what even is right right.

519
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 2: There's so many videos I'm even saying that people like wait,

520
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 2: this is it? Maybe? Is it? No?

521
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: No?

522
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 2: Yes? And there's it's bad. It's already it's been bad

523
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 2: for a while, whether it's just misinformation that's being leaked

524
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 2: as fact to this to like having videos of being

525
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 2: like is that a real video? What is this cute

526
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 2: dog in bear? Is this a thing?

527
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have I have an episode

528
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,439
Speaker 1: coming up where I had to I had to really

529
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: do some digging like this, really, I just need to

530
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: make sure that this is okay, okay, all right. Yeah. Also,

531
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 1: I think a lot of this story is about fate,

532
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: so she can't stop these things. And I think for

533
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: for some people that idea is really frightening because that's

534
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 1: that goes back to the whole free will we can

535
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: change things versus the that's just fate, that's what it is.

536
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder if writing this tale is one of

537
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 2: those explainers, because it doesn't make sense why women are

538
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 2: so distrusted, just like in such a way that this

539
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 2: fairy tale is like, maybe this is why because nothing

540
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,720
Speaker 2: else makes sense. It's a curse because there's no reason.

541
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,439
Speaker 2: Kind of the same as the Adam and Eve tail.

542
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 2: It's kind of like, oh, we have to say this

543
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 2: is the reason why they're not trustworthy, or this is

544
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 2: the reason it's their fault. And so this kind of

545
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 2: aligns to explaining why we don't believe women, not just

546
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 2: why we shouldn't, but why we don't because nothing else

547
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 2: makes sense.

548
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I would say that is a brutal punishment. Yeah,

549
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 1: it is a huge like punishing a woman for knowing

550
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 1: right what is coming, So that hats off. I mean,

551
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 1: that's awful. I didn't get to read the entire article,

552
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 1: but there's a piece about Virgil's depiction of Cassandra and

553
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: how sexist it was, So there's definitely I mean, if

554
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 1: it's coming from like ancient times, there's no part of

555
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: me that it thinks it was probably a healthy depiction

556
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:33,919
Speaker 1: of women, right. But it is interesting how as time

557
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: has moved on, modern interpretations are much more like I

558
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 1: don't even know if you knew what you were writing, right, Yeah,

559
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 1: and then the final points to end on because it

560
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 1: kind of a bummer on some of these, but resistance,

561
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,399
Speaker 1: I mean, like I said, she she didn't give up

562
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 1: even though no one believed her. She kept trying, and

563
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 1: her story did stick around and has lasted and has

564
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: resonated with so many people. And I'm sure you know

565
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,760
Speaker 1: that's kind of amazing, right because it was a story

566
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: about a woman coming from that long ago very easily

567
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,320
Speaker 1: could have been lost, or she would have been the

568
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,839
Speaker 1: character that got kind of pushed to the side, right,

569
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 1: But she really wasn't.

570
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 2: Sad she is a metaphor, yeah.

571
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 1: And I mean it's a terrible what happened in that

572
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:40,359
Speaker 1: story to her is off.

573
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 2: I feel like they just always have to add this

574
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:51,320
Speaker 2: that one, like why why why? Yeah, it was really beaten,

575
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 2: would have been bad enough, kidnapped pretty bad, but no,

576
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 2: we have to add one more. I'm okay, everything's fine.

577
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: Yep. Well, listeners, If you have any thoughts about this,

578
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 1: I would definitely love to hear that yes, yes, any

579
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: other mythological figures we should do, or if you have

580
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: any examples of real, real world spandras that we should do,

581
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,800
Speaker 1: please let us know. You can email us at Hello

582
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 1: at steffanever told You dot com. You can find us

583
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: on Blue Sky at Moustil podcast, or on Instagram and

584
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: TikTok at stuff I Never told You. We're also on

585
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: YouTube and we have a book you can get where

586
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: you get your books. Thanks as always to you, a

587
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,359
Speaker 1: super ducer Christina or Executi producer and a con trooper Joey.

588
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks to you for listening Stuff Never

589
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 1: Told You should I Heart Radio for more podcast or

590
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 1: my heart Radio. You can check out the Heart Radio

591
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 1: ap Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite

592
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 1: shows