1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:01,160 Speaker 1: Welcome everybody. 2 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:05,439 Speaker 2: Tuesday edition of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show 3 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:10,040 Speaker 2: kicks off right now, and we've got a lot to discuss, 4 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 2: including the referral to the DOJ of those names from 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 2: the Russia collusion soft cop attempt of years past, and 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 2: now the impaneling of a grand jury. 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: A grand jury is now in the mix on this. 8 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 3: We shall give you the latest on it and where 9 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 3: we think that this is going. Prosecutors are starting that 10 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 3: grand jury probe into the Obama era officials of the 11 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 3: Russia collusion investigation. Interesting note, Clay, you know, I talked 12 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 3: to our friend Miranda Devine on also our friends legitimately 13 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 3: these are friends of ours, are also our friend Will 14 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 3: Caine show yesterday? Were you and Jesse last night? Was 15 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 3: that right where I see you were somewhere? You're Hannity. 16 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 3: You were in someone's show last night? Oh god, I 17 00:00:59,080 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 3: don't know one of them. 18 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 4: I was on. I was on what, I don't know Will? 19 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 4: I was on Will Show too, Oh okay, Will Show. 20 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 4: I saw a clip. Okay, there we go. 21 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. 22 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 3: So yeah, but in point point being we're talking about 23 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 3: this Clay's Clay's omni prison. You know what I mean 24 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 3: those jackets that he wears. You guys have demanded more news. 25 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 4: Has got me basically on every day somewhere. So when 26 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 4: you asked me, I was like, I couldn't even remember 27 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 4: there for a sec where I was on America's newsroom 28 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 4: this morning. 29 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 3: Okay, I saw you there, and then your Will show. 30 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 3: My point being he's talking about the Pam Bondi stuff. 31 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 3: I'm talking about the panm Bondi stuff. Everybody's talking about 32 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 3: what's going to happen here in this Russia era Russia 33 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 3: collusion investigation, and part of it is I spoke to 34 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 3: Miranda Divine on Will Show and she said something I 35 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 3: thought was interesting and maybe we should ping Miranda to 36 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 3: come talk to us more about this because she raised 37 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:50,919 Speaker 3: this and I hadn't heard this before. 38 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: So I'm just putting this out there. 39 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 5: Uh. 40 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 3: You know, that's the thing. You get to do a 41 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 3: hit with some some great people. You know, a hit 42 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 3: is our shorthand for TV apparents. But any was wondering 43 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 3: and sometimes we'll even learned things of the process. She 44 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 3: said Clay that the statute of limitations issues that clearly 45 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 3: would come up in some cases because five years five 46 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 3: years when you're talking about something happened ten years ago. 47 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 3: This is not a tough call. Ten year statute of 48 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 3: limitations also applies to some things federal crimes that would 49 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 3: have run. But if the conspiracy was continued and there 50 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 3: was cover up and even endured during some of the 51 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 3: Trump years and beyond, perhaps into the Biden years, that 52 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,679 Speaker 3: would Now I hadn't heard this before, but she indicated 53 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 3: this on TV that that could be a part of 54 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 3: all of this. Because short of that, I look at this, 55 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 3: Clay and I say, I don't understand what the statutory 56 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 3: framework would be for the charges yet. I'm not a lawyer, 57 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 3: but Play's a lawyer. We're going to get into this. 58 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 3: I think the grand jury probe into Obama officials is 59 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 3: an interesting step. I am still not con convinced it 60 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 3: is likely that any of them will face even with 61 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,679 Speaker 3: a grand jury looking at them criminal charges, but I'm 62 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 3: certainly open to and no, I could be wrong. What 63 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 3: do you see given where this is right now? 64 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 4: There are so many different angles that you can analyze 65 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 4: this report from the one that I think is paramount 66 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 4: and matters more than anything else, is where is the 67 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 4: grand jury going to be impaneled? And I haven't heard 68 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 4: this widely discussed because to me, it's the only thing 69 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 4: that matters, because if they did a DC based grand jury, 70 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 4: I think the odds of anybody inside of Obama's administration 71 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 4: getting indicted for anything related to Russia collusion or virtually zero. 72 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 4: And so I think you would have to find a 73 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 4: hook to move the grand jury out of DC and 74 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 4: put it somewhere else. Now, what I've heard being discussed 75 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 4: is because of the marri Lago raid, maybe the grand 76 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 4: jury is going to be I paneled in somewhere in 77 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 4: South Florida as the mar Lago case was. 78 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: Here is the challenge with that. 79 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 3: Do you think I could put on like one of 80 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 3: those glasses with mustache outfits and be like, hello, fellow citizens, 81 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 3: put me on. 82 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: This grand jury. 83 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 4: Well, it would be funny because in theory you could 84 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 4: be impaneled as a South Florida resident on one of 85 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:22,359 Speaker 4: these grand juries. But I imagine that you would be 86 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 4: stricken from the jury pool quite quickly. I would imagine 87 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 4: so too. 88 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: Yes, But here is the challenge. 89 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 4: So one everything else, all I think that matters is 90 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 4: where's the grand jury located? 91 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: Two? 92 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 4: Is there a is the grand jury? If it were 93 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 4: located in Florida? Is that a valid grand jury? And 94 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 4: that's where you try to argue, oh, this is all 95 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 4: part of one grand conspiracy to get Trump and it 96 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 4: includes even the mar A Lago investigation and raid from 97 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 4: the FBI. I would imagine that almost immediately you would 98 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 4: see where the grand jury is located as a major 99 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 4: part of any defense that was offered. And remember this 100 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 4: became an issue because initially Jack Smith tried to impanel 101 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 4: the Florida Classified Documents case in DC and then up 102 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 4: at the last moment and recognize that he had a 103 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 4: jurisdiction issue, a venue issue, and he suddenly moved into 104 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 4: South Florida. 105 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: This is me being a legal nerd and telling you 106 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: where this case is headed. 107 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 4: Part of me wonders buck whether this is partly just 108 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 4: a exercise in following through on promises. And if the 109 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 4: jury declines to indict politically, the Trump team can just 110 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 4: throw up their hands and say, democrats won't indict democrats 111 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 4: for committing crimes. We did everything we could in this case, 112 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 4: and then they think they win politically because it retains 113 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 4: the issue here. But they did everything they could do 114 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 4: from a legal process perspective. 115 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: Does that make sense. 116 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 4: A boy, the way we can take calls on this 117 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 4: because I know it's complicated, but I think you've got 118 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 4: the number one question that has to be resolved is 119 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 4: where is this grand jury going to be? And for 120 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 4: those of you out there that don't know, usually indictments 121 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 4: are handed out by a grand jury. And if you 122 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 4: have a grand jury in DC that is ninety six 123 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 4: percent or ninety five percent or whatever the heck, the 124 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 4: percentage is maybe ninety seven percent inclined to favor Democrats. 125 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 4: I don't believe they're going to indict Hillary or former 126 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 4: Obama officials. 127 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 3: Continue if it's in DC, there's there's no there's I 128 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 3: would say, no chance. 129 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,119 Speaker 1: I mean, which is why like nine percent. 130 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 4: No, it's just a political move because they can say 131 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 4: we took this to the grand jury, but the DC 132 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 4: grand jury would not indict. Remember, I give credit to 133 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 4: the President because he's also said this, but we were 134 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 4: the first show that I heard even talking about it. 135 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 4: Obama is going to be protected by presidential immunity the 136 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 4: same way that Trump was protected by presidential immunity. And 137 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 4: there are people out there that will tell you that 138 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 4: that's not true. And maybe you listen to some of them. 139 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 4: I believe they are wrong, and I believe they are 140 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 4: getting you fired up with the idea of Oh, Obama's 141 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 4: going to face charges. Obama I would be stunned beyond 142 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 4: belief if he face charges, and if he did, he 143 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 4: would immediately defend himself by saying, Hey, the same Supreme 144 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 4: Court president that applied for Trump related to twenty twenty 145 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 4: also applies for me. 146 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 3: There's no chance, in my mind zero Obama's going to 147 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 3: face any And I'm just being honest with all of you. 148 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 3: I don't think anybody should think that that's going to happen. 149 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 3: It's just not going to happen. He has immunity while 150 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 3: he's president, and trying to prove something after people can 151 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 3: write in well what if we find something, Well, you 152 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 3: know what if a million different things you could say, 153 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 3: But the reality is that's not I think going to 154 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 3: now showing doing what Tulsea Gabbert has done and showing 155 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 3: the way that the Obama officials were clearly being disingenuous 156 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 3: and dishonest in all of this is important for people 157 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 3: to see. The Other problem is with a lot of 158 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 3: this stuff, you're gonna run into anytime. It's an interpretation 159 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 3: of analysis. Trying to say it's criminal is going to 160 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 3: be very hard, even if anybody should have known. I mean, 161 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 3: you saw this with the FISA warrants they ran against Carter, 162 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 3: against Papadopoulos, Carter Page, FBI stuff. They can say, well, 163 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 3: maybe it wasn't a lock, but we thought that this 164 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 3: was good enough that we should use our authority for 165 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,959 Speaker 3: the following reasons. Now, there was that one guy who lied. 166 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 3: Now we're going back into the right. This is the 167 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 3: thing I've been covering for a decade, right, so I 168 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 3: got to go back in the memory banks. Here there 169 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 3: was that lawyer who lied and changed evidence so that 170 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 3: they could get the FISA on I think it was 171 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 3: Carter Page and removed that he had been in good 172 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 3: standing with the intelligence community previously, some thing along those lines. 173 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 3: He was prosecuted and nothing actually ended up happening to him. 174 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 3: So just remember, I mean, he did not get punished 175 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 3: at all. So it's this is a challenge, and it 176 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 3: was in DC. This is the point. It's in DC. 177 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 3: To Clay's point, if they bring it in South Florida 178 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 3: or somewhere else, then things can get a little bit spicier. 179 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 3: That could be a little bit more interesting. 180 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 4: Here is another legal weeds analysis. I question whether all 181 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 4: of these things are connected so in order to have 182 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 4: a conspiracy and argue that it's an ongoing conspiracy, I 183 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 4: actually think there are different crimes, and I think they 184 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 4: have beginning and end dates. I think that what happened 185 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 4: with Russia is one crime, right, the Russia collusion, the hoax, 186 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 4: everything associated with that, and it lasted for several years, 187 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 4: and I think that is one thing. I actually think 188 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 4: that's different than the mar Lago raid and also the 189 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 4: twenty twenty and destigations and all those things. So I 190 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 4: think connecting all of those issues to argue it's one 191 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 4: grand conspiracy is actually a challenging legal proposition because usually, 192 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 4: and I'll just give you an example, if you and 193 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 4: Ibuck engaged in a conspiracy to rob a bank and 194 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 4: then the bank robbery ended up happening one day and 195 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 4: that was a finite finished scenario, and then we engaged 196 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 4: in an additional conspiracy and we decided to steal a boat, 197 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 4: I would argue that those are you know, hopefully we 198 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 4: don't do either of those things, but I would argue 199 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 4: that those are two distinct crimes, and our partnership, even 200 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 4: though we're involved in the same thing, would not necessarily 201 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 4: be a conspiracy because they have an open and shut, 202 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 4: closed date. I think that's going to be a challenge 203 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 4: to argue that all of this is interconnected matters, because 204 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 4: that would then give the that's the hook that allows 205 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 4: the jurisdiction to be outside of DC, because otherwise I 206 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 4: think most people would say, yeah, the Russia collusion case 207 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 4: should be DC. And and by the way, I think 208 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 4: the twenty twenty investigation into the election would be DC. 209 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: But mar Lago is different, so I see those as distinct. 210 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 3: I also think part of the frustration, and that's why 211 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 3: I believe it's necessary for us to all set our 212 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 3: expectations within what is likely. Like I said, I could pambondy, 213 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 3: there could be an announcement, there could be a press 214 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 3: conference in a couple of in a couple of weeks, whenever, Hey, 215 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 3: you know this guy, that guy who worked for Obama's 216 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 3: facing falling charges. I'm not saying that's impossible or not 217 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 3: on the table. I think it's highly unlikely, but I 218 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 3: think that part of the frustration, and it's unlikely for 219 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 3: procedural reasons, right, I don't I don't need anyone to 220 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 3: email me and remind me I lived eight eight rather 221 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 3: eight and breathed Russia collusion, conspiracy for years of my life. 222 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 3: All right, do a consolo radio show before I teamed 223 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 3: up with Clay. This, day in and day out, they 224 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 3: were spying, They lied this, there's nothing with russ So 225 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 3: trust me, I'm well aware of all the nasty and 226 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 3: evil things they did. But we have a system, and 227 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 3: within that legal system, there are some challenges to going 228 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 3: after these individuals, even knowing what they did now. I 229 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 3: think part of the frustration on this play is we've 230 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 3: all seen that when the shoe is on the other foot, 231 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 3: and when Democrats are in a position to do so, 232 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 3: whether it's the mar Lago raid or the Faiso warrants, 233 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 3: or the Special councils, or the impeachments or the four 234 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 3: Criminal prosecutions or all the they abuse their authority in bad 235 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 3: faith as a political weapon against their opponents. And the 236 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 3: real question for Maga, I think in this moment, for 237 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 3: everybody who supports the president, is do we play within 238 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 3: this system as boy scouts, no offense boy scouts, or 239 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 3: did the brass knuckles come out? And what we can 240 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 3: justify what we can get away with justifying we do 241 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 3: through the system instead of reading in the best possible 242 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 3: faith within the system. I think that's a real discussion 243 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 3: or a real thought process that's going on here, Meaning, 244 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 3: you know, do you bring a charge even if you 245 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 3: know you can't prove it because you're gonna make them 246 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 3: lawyer up and mess them up, and the processes the 247 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 3: punishment that remains to be seen. 248 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 4: I think that's important too, because you could get indictments, 249 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 4: and then the indictments are the underlying crimes are going 250 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 4: to be litigated for years. Remember they got indictments on 251 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 4: all the Marra A Lago raids, and then before Trump 252 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 4: won reelection, the judge down there tossed that entire case, 253 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 4: I believe in July of twenty twenty four if I 254 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 4: remember correctly. So my concern would be, just because you 255 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 4: get an indictment doesn't mean that you've got a valid 256 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 4: upstanding going to withstand all of the criminal challenges that 257 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 4: will be coming. So this is complicated. We'll take calls. 258 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 4: We're not talking about what should necessarily happen as much 259 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 4: as the challenges that have to be followed in order 260 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 4: to put something in place. I think, beyond the shadow 261 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 4: of the doubt, they have to do it in Florida 262 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 4: if they're going to even hope to get an indictment. 263 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 4: And I also think that as all this unfolds, I 264 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 4: get it, a lot of people want an eye for 265 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 4: an eye attitude now that Trump and his team runs 266 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 4: the system. 267 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: It's an end. 268 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 5: You know. 269 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 3: We used to say, I'll just point this out conservatives, 270 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 3: Clay used to be, we don't want the other side 271 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 3: to get canceled. We just don't want anyone to be canceled. 272 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: You know what. 273 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 3: That didn't work until all of a sudden you had 274 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 3: the bud light effect, until you had people that were 275 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 3: suffering consequences for their their bad actions. Yes, they kept 276 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 3: doing it and doing it and doing it. An eye 277 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 3: for an eye within the system, as long as it's 278 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 3: within the system and you can justify it. I think 279 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 3: some people want to see that, and that's where a 280 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 3: lot of the frustration comes. And I'm aware of that, 281 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 3: all right. Look, every day, thousands of women across our 282 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 3: nation are contending with an unplanned pregnancy with so few 283 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 3: options in front of them, at least that's what they're told. 284 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 3: But thanks to preborn. There are options, there's hope. The 285 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 3: preborn clinics offer life and support for that child and 286 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 3: that mother, and they have a level of understanding and 287 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 3: compassion for pregnant women that is just so incredible, and 288 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 3: it's saving so many lives day in and day out. 289 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 3: Over three hundred and fifty thousand babies have been saved 290 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 3: through this life giving work. Mother's like Valeria, who thought 291 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 3: she didn't deserve to have a child until her search 292 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 3: led her to a Preborn Network clinic. Now she has 293 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 3: a beautiful baby daughter. This is happening every day. That's 294 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 3: why your support is so critical. Just twenty eight dollars 295 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 3: a month can save a life. That's the price of 296 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 3: a preborn ultrasound, which they give to any pregnant woman 297 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 3: who walks in for free. They introduce mother to child 298 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 3: through that ultrasound, and then the conversation about life becomes 299 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 3: so much easier. Dial pound two fifty say the keyword baby. 300 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 3: That's pound two five zero, say the keyword baby. Or 301 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 3: go to preborn dot com, slash buck preborn dot com 302 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 3: slash b u C King America. 303 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: One thought at a time. 304 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 6: Clay Travis and Buck Sexton them find them on the 305 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 6: free iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. 306 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 4: Walk back in Clay Travis buck Sexton Show. Appreciate all 307 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 4: of you rolling with us. We got a ton of 308 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 4: you weighing in with vip emails. 309 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: Maybe we can run into some of these. 310 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 4: And a lot of people saying if Obama, here's Michael, 311 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 4: and we'll get into some of this. If Obama can't 312 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 4: be prosecuted, can he be called to testify under oath? 313 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 4: No criminal liability, no Fifth Amendment? Seems like he must 314 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 4: testify truthfully on pain of perjury. You could still take 315 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 4: the Fifth Amendment. Yeah, I mean this is I've seen 316 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 4: people saying, oh, if you can't be prosecuted, you can't. 317 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 4: I mean, you could still have to be sued civilly, like, 318 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 4: there are lots of ways that you could be liable 319 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 4: for what you say in some way in court. So again, 320 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 4: I just think that a lot of you are chasing 321 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 4: this idea of Obama's going to walk out in handcuffs, 322 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 4: because there are people who have sold this idea. 323 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 3: And they're being dishonest. Sorry, just they're being dishonest with 324 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 3: their audience. Okay, I'm not even I'm not going to 325 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 3: name some names. They know Obama's not gonna get arrested. 326 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 3: They know Obama's not going to be prosecuted, but they 327 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 3: know that it's going to cause a lot of online clicks. 328 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 3: I don't like that behavior. I think that that shows 329 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 3: a disrespect for the people who give you their time. 330 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 3: Obama is ninety nine point nine nine percent not going 331 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 3: to be criminally indicted over any of this. 332 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: He can't be. He cannot be Trump under up state. 333 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 4: I give credit to Trump for pointing out again the 334 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 4: Supreme Court that they claimed was rigged by Trump has 335 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 4: given all presidents expansive protection, Democrat, Republican, independent, all for 336 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 4: both past and present actions. To come, we'll take some 337 00:17:58,320 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 4: of your calls. We'll read some more of these emails. 338 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 4: In the meantime. Two of my three boys have cell phones. 339 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 4: The youngest does not. We let him communicate via a 340 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 4: rapid radio, which is great. These are a lot of fun. 341 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 4: If you remember being a kid, maybe you had like 342 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 4: the old Gi Joe radios and you ran around with them. 343 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 4: It's a great easy way to communicate with a kid 344 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 4: without having to worry about them being able to get 345 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,719 Speaker 4: on the internet. It's also good football seasons coming up, 346 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 4: maybe you're going to be in a crowded tailgate situation. 347 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 4: Maybe a lot of cell phone networks are going to 348 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 4: be overloaded. Rapid radios can find a way to communicate 349 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 4: because they search all of the available networks. They get 350 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 4: you hooked up. Also worked great in times of catastrophe, 351 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 4: no setup required, pull them out of the box, press 352 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,440 Speaker 4: a button, Boom, You're ready to go. Rapid radios dot 353 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 4: com to save sixty percent off. That's rapid radios dot Com. 354 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 4: Get hooked up today. 355 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 3: All right, welcome back into Clay and Buck. We're talking 356 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 3: about the impaneling of a grand jury to look into 357 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 3: the Russia collusion conspiracy that has spanned a decade now 358 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 3: and was really the original ultra dirty trick used against 359 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 3: Trump to try to stop him before MAGA could even 360 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 3: get going. It was meant to, you know, smother Maga 361 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 3: with a pillow. It was really an insidious effort using 362 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 3: the media, elements of the deep state, within the intelligence 363 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 3: community and yes the White House in the control of 364 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 3: the Obama regime at the time. And we're just trying 365 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 3: to tell you where this stands now, where it's likely 366 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 3: to go. 367 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 1: And with that in mind. 368 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 3: Let's let's dive into some of these emails and some 369 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 3: of these calls. Clay, we have Mike in North Carolina. 370 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 3: He's a caller, right, Let's hear from Mike. What's going on. 371 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 7: Hey, Bella's thanks a lot. You guys are doing a 372 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 7: great job. 373 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 1: Thank you. 374 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 7: I'm almost a fifty year veteran law enforcements. I've got 375 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,719 Speaker 7: lots of contacts that are federal prosecutors that have wrote 376 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 7: that have risen to just about the highest position short 377 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 7: of Pam Bondi's office. And I've discussed this whole issue 378 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 7: with them and it's not good. So everybody probably shouldn't 379 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 7: get their hopes up too high. The statue of limitations 380 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 7: is going to be a problem once they get into 381 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:35,360 Speaker 7: court because they don't believe that the recent axe clause 382 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 7: and the conspiracy will will hold up. They don't think 383 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 7: that they can use it. RICO is going to be 384 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 7: lacking the myriad of minor crimes minor but the lesser 385 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 7: crimes and wire fraud is probably going to get a 386 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 7: real tough one to do too. The good point is 387 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 7: that perjury will definitely be in play because once once 388 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 7: the conspiracy in the lies came out, they continue to 389 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 7: push it while under oaths. So that's good. 390 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 1: Thank you for the thank you for the call. 391 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 4: Let me let me dive into this a little bit, 392 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,959 Speaker 4: buck and I'll start in reverse, because he finished with perjury. 393 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: Perjury is really hard to prove. 394 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 4: It is just really hard to prove, especially if you're 395 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 4: dealing with someone who is actually smart. 396 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: Uh. 397 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 4: And I'll go back to uh. You know, that depends 398 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 4: on what the meaning of the word is is. For 399 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 4: those of you who remember the Clinton era, you know, 400 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 4: remember when he committed perjury. 401 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: But that's okay, he'll actually committed perjury, right, But the. 402 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 4: Way that he would answer questions, he said, you know, 403 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:55,719 Speaker 4: there is no relationship there. There are lots of angles 404 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 4: where you're able to dodge around. The only reason, by 405 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 4: the way, Bill Clinton got caught for perjury, correct me 406 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 4: if I'm wrong, is because Monica Lewinsky saved the dress 407 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 4: and they were able to prove. 408 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I did not have a sexual relationship with that woman. 409 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 3: I mean, he was a liar. He committed perjury, black letter, 410 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 3: clear obvious perjury. But I could but only I think 411 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 3: because she kept that dress. If that dress had not existed, 412 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 3: I think it would have been hard to prove. It 413 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 3: would have been a he said, she said, And it 414 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 3: would have been hard to prove whether or not Monica 415 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 3: Lewinsky was being honest or he was. I will say 416 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 3: a great example of somebody who has not faced any 417 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 3: charges and will not face any charges despite being a liar. 418 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 3: But he's a creature of the bureaucracy is fauci. Everything 419 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 3: he says, he goes. You know, the data was coming 420 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 3: from multiple sources. And I looked at this, and I 421 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,479 Speaker 3: looked at that, and it was complicated, and it was 422 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 3: if someone can turn your brain to mush with kind 423 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 3: of vague non answers on it's very hard to get 424 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 3: them with perjury unless you have a think. I brought 425 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 3: this up in the context of counter terrorism cases. Why 426 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 3: did guys who were and it was guys who were 427 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 3: raising money for al Qaeda, or you know, bought a 428 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 3: weapon illegally for a guy who was an anwar Alackey sympathizer, 429 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 3: things like that, why did they get nailed on perjury charges? 430 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 3: Because they would the investigators, usually FBI. The investigators would 431 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 3: sit down with them and ask them answers to questions 432 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,400 Speaker 3: they already knew and hammer them on a few times, 433 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 3: and they didn't realize because they didn't have a lawyer 434 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 3: with them. It's very illegal to lie to the FBI 435 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 3: about whether you bought explosives material for somebody or something 436 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 3: like that. Right, so, even if you couldn't prove the 437 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 3: criminal terrorist conspiracy, you had them dead to rights on 438 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 3: the lie. And then they end up pleading and they 439 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 3: take for five years or you know, seven years with 440 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 3: the terrorism enhancement something like that. You're not going to 441 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 3: get that with these guys. This is kind of remember, 442 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,719 Speaker 3: you know, I know that we think of them as 443 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 3: as bumbling buffoon and they are at some level, but 444 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 3: they're also creatures clay of the intelligence community and the bureaucracy, 445 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 3: people like Brennan and Clapper. They've been mumbling through testimony 446 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 3: for as long as I've been alive. This is what 447 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 3: these guys do. So thinking that they're going to. 448 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: Say, you know, oh, I'm telling a big obvious lie. 449 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: You can prove. Maybe you get them on this, but 450 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 1: very unlikely you haven't. We haven't got them on it yet. 451 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 4: I would also usually perjury has a very set statute 452 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 4: of limitations, and much of the testimony relating to Russia collusion, 453 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 4: I believe would be past the perjury. 454 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: It's all five years. It's all that. That perjury is 455 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 1: all five years. And I just say this. 456 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 3: People are saying, now, put them through the process and 457 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 3: get them to lie. They don't have to testify. Everything 458 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 3: will be through lawyers. They're not more they're not. I 459 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 3: mean I say things sometimes like they're you know, there's 460 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 3: different levels of moron. But you're not going to get 461 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 3: John Brennan to perjure himself when he doesn't even have 462 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 3: to testify about one of these matters. You know, this 463 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 3: is we just need to keep this in the realm 464 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 3: of reality a little bit. That's that's what I think 465 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 3: is important. I mean people, by the way, a lot 466 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 3: of people calling and Clay they you know what, and 467 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 3: this this I get. They just want the process to 468 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 3: be the punishment. 469 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: I am. 470 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 4: There is a let me say this, by the way, 471 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 4: on the conspiracy element. When I was in krimlaw class, 472 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 4: we had a great professor Don Hall, and he used 473 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 4: to say, this is the reality inside of criminal prosecutions. 474 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 4: They will say, boy, we don't have them on hardly anything. 475 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 4: Let's just get him on a conspiracy. Right, So this 476 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 4: is a very broad based charge. My concern on the 477 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 4: conspiracy again, this is where we started the show, is 478 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 4: how do you locate the conspiracy charges in Florida. The 479 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 4: only way to do that with the Russia collusion case 480 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 4: is to argue it's one grand conspiracy. I think that's 481 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 4: a very hard put to sink. So my concern is 482 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 4: getting Russia collusion charges to me would almost certainly require 483 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 4: a DC grand jury, which I don't think a DC 484 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 4: grand jury is willing to indict. So you have to 485 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 4: get it to Florida. But then you get the challenge 486 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 4: of is the conspiracy actually the appropriate venue in Florida. 487 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 4: I understand this is complicated, but I'm trying to tell 488 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 4: you where we are headed from a legal process and procedure, 489 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 4: And this is why it's complicated. Now to your point, Buck, 490 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 4: some people are just like, screw it, bring the charges, 491 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 4: get the story out there. Who cares what happens. 492 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 3: This is the eye for an eye approach, which, by 493 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 3: the way, I understand I'm not discounting it. I'm just 494 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 3: saying that that's a different thing than I think we'll 495 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 3: be able to take this all the way, get criminal 496 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 3: convictions that will be upheld on appeal and that people 497 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 3: are going to go to prison. That's a different thing 498 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 3: than screw it. Let's just make these guys pay whatever 499 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 3: price we can. We know that they're scumbags. That's also 500 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 3: that's also a valid philosophical position. Let's get Roger in 501 00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 3: a story of Queen's What's going on? 502 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 8: Roger, Hey, guys, you just stole my thunder there. Uh oh, 503 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 8: what I was going to say is what I was 504 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 8: going to say is I think it's what's going on 505 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 8: now is a success. You know, Uh, You've got uh Obama, 506 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 8: You've got Comi, you got Brennan. And to them, their 507 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 8: egos are so large that you know that they want 508 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,159 Speaker 8: to be thought of as gods. And this is bringing 509 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 8: them down. This is showing the people just you know 510 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 8: what type of political hacks they were, and and you know. 511 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the thank you, Roger. 512 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 3: This is the political Yeah, this is the political accountability 513 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 3: part of it, which I think I do think is 514 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 3: important and valid. So thank you for calling in on that. 515 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:48,199 Speaker 3: I think that's Clay. I think that's real. The more 516 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 3: people know how gross and underhanded these efforts were, it 517 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 3: stays with them longer. And some of these people still 518 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 3: think they should have a say. I mean, certainly Obama 519 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,120 Speaker 3: does in our public life, public discourse, in national elections. 520 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 4: I also think this is important to build on what 521 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,479 Speaker 4: he said about the process and having some sort of 522 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 4: public hearing on this and a reckoning for lack of 523 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 4: a better way to say it. You know, when Trump 524 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 4: got charged, we told all of you four months they're 525 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 4: going to charge him. 526 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: This is coming. 527 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 4: We don't think it's legitimate, but we're laying out all 528 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 4: of the different parameters associated with it. On the left, 529 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 4: if charges come down, does that audience have any idea 530 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 4: that there's enough legitimacy for charges to be brought here? 531 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 4: Because they've been told all of Russia collusion was true. 532 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 4: They've been told everything that Tulsea Gabbard said is made up. 533 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 4: There's no legitimacy to it whatsoever. You guys, meaning everybody 534 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 4: listening to us right now, you are super well informed. 535 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 4: We covered it aggressively on New York City, on Atlanta, 536 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 4: on South Florida, on DC, and we really kind of 537 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 4: told you where we were headed, what was likely to come. 538 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 4: I don't think any of you were shocked by what 539 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 4: you saw transpire there. What is the average MSNBC viewer 540 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 4: or New York Times reader going to think if suddenly 541 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 4: indictments come down for lies associated with Russia collusion, I 542 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 4: think that's a real Now they're probably going to say, oh, 543 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 4: this is unprecedented, this is a present, it's invalid. 544 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 3: But I think the point you're making is they will 545 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 3: be completely blind shot out of nowhere that this could occur. Yeah, yeah, 546 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 3: I think I think that's right. Greg and Orlando, Florida. 547 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 3: What's going on, Greg, Well. 548 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 5: Truck drivers. So my favorite time of the day is 549 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 5: twelve to three here in Florida. 550 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: But they love our truck drivers. Thank you, Greg. 551 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 5: No problem. What's that quote all stairs lov and war? 552 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 5: I think it should be love, war and politics. I 553 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 5: think we should go blow to blow with them, and 554 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 5: if we can't get them legally at least well, at 555 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 5: least try to get them on accountability a little bit 556 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 5: more and like Clay saying, bring the light to what 557 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 5: they're doing. More people will know. And if we can't 558 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 5: get them legally a left at least morally and ethically, 559 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 5: people have a little bit bigger open eyes and realize 560 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 5: what they've done, and remember that with future elections and 561 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 5: anything else, that comes up. 562 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 4: I think that's a great call, and I think that's 563 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 4: really what you should expect and hope to have occurring. 564 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 4: Here is just a public reckoning, even if we don't 565 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,959 Speaker 4: get a criminal court reckoning, because I'm telling you, this 566 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 4: is gonna get bogged down. By the way, a lot 567 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 4: of three and four thousand dollars an hour criminal defense 568 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 4: attorneys in DC buck that are just rubbing their hands 569 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 4: with glee because they want charges to come down. Because 570 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 4: you know who the real winner here is criminal defense 571 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 4: lawyers because Democrats are going to pay them tens of 572 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 4: millions of dollars in legal defense fees that all their 573 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 4: rich benefactors, the Soroses of the world, are going to fund. 574 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 4: And those guys are just like it's bonus season, baby, 575 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 4: I'm gonna go buy a new house. I'm telling you 576 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 4: right now. That's exactly the conversations they're having. Ruth in 577 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 4: Cape Coral, Florida. A lot of Florida representatives representation rather 578 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 4: on Today Show. 579 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: What's going on? 580 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 9: Ruth, Hi, good afternoon. Clay in back. Yeah, I was 581 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 9: calling about presidential immunity. But before I get into my 582 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 9: points on that, just want to make a quick observation 583 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 9: about Grand Conspiracy. You were indicating that you felt that 584 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 9: the parts of the Grand Conspiracy were all separate. But 585 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 9: I think if they have evidence showing that the same 586 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 9: people coordinated all these efforts, can you be. 587 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 3: Clear, Clay, Just to be clear, Clay thinks that it's 588 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 3: very hard to prove the I'm Buck, He's Clay. He 589 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 3: thinks it's very hard to prove the Grand Conspiracy all 590 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 3: ties together. So you're saying you think it'll be easier 591 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 3: than he maybe thinks. 592 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 9: If they have evidence showing that the same people perpetrated 593 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 9: the conspiracy. 594 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 4: That My argument with that is, let me just say, 595 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 4: like Barack Obama was definitely involved in the Russia investigation 596 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 4: and collusion, I don't think Barack Obama was involved in 597 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 4: the decision for the FBI to raid the Department of Justice, right. 598 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 7: So. 599 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 4: I remember at all, Yeah, sorry to raid mar Lago. 600 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 4: He was not in office at that point, so for 601 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 4: him to be involved in that, I think it's hard 602 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 4: to have conspirators that are part of a conspiracy for 603 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 4: one conspiracy and not for another, and so I think 604 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 4: it's separate. Ruth, you had another point, though we got 605 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 4: only about thirty seconds but go for it. 606 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 9: Yes, I do, I do, okay with absolute presidential immunity. 607 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 9: There were two parts to that Supreme Court decision. One 608 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 9: was absolute immunity, the other was presumed immunity. And they 609 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 9: kicked it back to the lower courts so that they 610 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 9: would have to determine which were official acts which were not. 611 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 9: But if you remember, it was one of the liberal 612 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 9: justices Chanji Brown or Kagan or so Money or that says, oh, 613 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 9: what if he ordered somebody to go out and kill somebody, 614 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 9: you know, blah blah blah. 615 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 3: So you're saying that this wouldn't be covered under official acts, 616 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 3: I am. 617 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 9: Saying, yes, I am saying. They have some emails right now, 618 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 9: as far as I understand that the Russians had hacked 619 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 9: into either the DNC or Hillary's computer that show that 620 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 9: Obama and Hillary knew that they were contriving the Russia conspiracy. 621 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 9: And that's not an officials. 622 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll see, we'll see. Thank you, Thank you, Ruth. 623 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 3: I don't think that there's any Obama emails or he's like, hey, 624 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 3: those fake emails, let's pin them on Trump. 625 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that he didn't do it. 626 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 3: I'm just saying I don't think there's any emails that 627 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 3: will show it with that level of clarity. Here's the problem, Clay, 628 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 3: any conversations that Obama, as president at the time, is 629 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 3: having with the FBI director, with the CIA director, any 630 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 3: of that is going to be considered under his official 631 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 3: duty in terms of decisions made within their per you, 632 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 3: of surveillance, of contact with the press, all of that. 633 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 3: You're never going to get around that. What Ruth said 634 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 3: is there was a hypothetical. My recollection is what if 635 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 3: the president just decided he wanted to assassinate someone? Could 636 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 3: if the president killed the maid in the Oval office 637 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 3: because he's in a bad move, that's not an official act. 638 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 3: That's clearly not covered. But talking to the FBI director 639 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 3: about surveillance that's going to be covered, or ordering Seal 640 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 3: Team six to take out somebody in a foreign country, 641 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 3: arguably that's within the presidential provinces too, right, So I 642 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 3: think Obama just you got to take him off the table. 643 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: It's unlikely to happen. I know it's people, don't you know. 644 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: I get it. 645 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 3: It's frustrated to hear, but I'm just telling you the truth, 646 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 3: at Clays, is it the same way. If we're wrong, 647 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 3: we will show up on the air and maya kulpa 648 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 3: and you know we'll take our lumps. Look, part of 649 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 3: my health journey has involved this. Right here, I'm holding 650 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 3: up on the video. You can see Chalk dally. I've 651 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 3: got it in my hand here. Boost free and total 652 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 3: testosterone contains four hundred five hundred mega milligrams rather prima 653 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 3: v shi legit and supports lean muscle mass. This is awesome. 654 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 3: I take it every day. I got to hear my 655 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 3: desk doing the show. Proper supplementation along with that. An 656 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 3: exercise is critical for your health, and Chalk is there 657 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 3: for you. The Male Vitality Stack, by the way, that's 658 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 3: where I would start. It helps with so many things 659 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 3: energy drive and yes, boosting testosterone. Go to Chalk dot 660 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 3: com today see what they've got. Choq dot com get 661 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 3: set up like I am. Massive discount when you use 662 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 3: my name Buck as your promo code. Go to chalkcchoq 663 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,320 Speaker 3: dot com use promo code Buck. 664 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 6: Patriots Radio hosts a couple of regular guys, Clay Travis 665 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 6: and Buck Sex. To find them on the free iHeartRadio 666 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 6: app or wherever you get your podcast. 667 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,879 Speaker 4: Welcome back in Clay Travis buck Sexton show rolling through 668 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 4: and having some fun with all of you. We'll take 669 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 4: some more of your calls as we continue through the program. 670 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: Next hour, Buck, Sorry, Buck. 671 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 4: There are subpoenas that have gone out in the Epstein 672 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 4: case from James Comer. We will tell you a bit 673 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 4: about those. Everything basically is in the legal process at 674 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 4: this point in time, and what I would say to 675 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 4: you is, don't miss sometimes the larger scale successes for 676 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 4: the individual day to day storyline, because one reason that 677 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 4: this is all happening is because the economy, border crime 678 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:30,240 Speaker 4: Trump's rolling on, and so it feels sometimes like there 679 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 4: are bright, shiny distractions that are occupying everybody's attention. But 680 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 4: I think big picture, economy, border crime Trump is delivering 681 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 4: on all three fronts. We'll talk about that when we 682 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 4: come back. And the latest on the subpoenas going out 683 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 4: from Washington, d C. To the Clintons and more related 684 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 4: to Epstein here on Clambuck