1 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wi wasn't Thal, and I'm Tracy Alloway. So, Tracy, 3 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,959 Speaker 1: I know that you don't play chess, that we've already established, 4 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: but was this is the show Queen's Gambit. Is that 5 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: stream in Hong Kong? Okay? So two things. First of all, 6 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: I do play chess. I know how to play chess. 7 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: I just don't play it with any regularity, and I 8 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: don't know like the names of the moves and the 9 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: openings and all of that in the same way that 10 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: you do. Secondly, I did watch Queen's Gambit and I 11 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: thought it was excellent. Did you after watching it get 12 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: excited and like want to play chess and go online 13 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: and have any interest because a lot of people apparently did. Yeah. 14 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: I heard that. So my problem with chess has always 15 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: been that I'm just not very very good at it, 16 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: and I'm not motivated to get better. So when I 17 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: watch something like Queen's Gambit, I actually find it demotivating 18 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: because I think I'll just never be as good as 19 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: these people. So but um, yes, I heard that. It 20 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 1: set off a huge wave of interest in chess over 21 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 1: well in the States primarily. Yeah, no, it has been 22 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: pretty wild. I was. I mean, I've played chess all 23 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: my life, but very often on like, I'll go through 24 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: these phases where I'll play a lot and get addicted, 25 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: and then I realize I'm playing too much and I 26 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: won't play for two years, and that I'll start playing again. 27 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: So I was among the people who, after watching it, 28 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 1: started playing a bunch again. And now, like what I'm 29 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: like getting makeup done for going on TV or on 30 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 1: the subway or something like that, I'll like or in 31 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: a car, I'll play like a quick uh, a quick 32 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: game of a blitz on chess dot com. So I 33 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: am one of those people who has got the bug 34 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: again after watching that show. Now, if you're going to 35 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: get addicted to something, I'd say playing chess online is 36 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: probably a reasonably healthy addiction, right, Yeah, I guess so. Um, 37 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: you know what else I've gotten really addicted to besides 38 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: playing chess, watching grand masters stream their chess games live 39 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: online and talking about them. See, now this is something 40 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: that I don't think I would necessarily get. Why is that? 41 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: Why is that interesting? Well, I don't know, I mean 42 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: it is. I find it to be extremely transfixing. But um, 43 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: there's something I particularly like watching someone do something and 44 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 1: seeing them talk about their thought process at the same time. Like, 45 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: I find that I learned well that way, So it's 46 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 1: like better than reading for me, better than listening. Like 47 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: watching someone do something, whether it's cooking, whether it's some 48 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: other skill, or whether it's playing chess. The process of 49 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: watching someone sort of like talk out their thoughts in 50 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: real time I find to be very compelling. Yeah, I 51 00:02:55,880 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 1: could see that being um mildly interesting. Sure, but you're 52 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: I mean, you're right that chess has had a massive year, 53 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: and alongside this renewed interest from Queen's Gambit, we are 54 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,679 Speaker 1: seeing like a major major uptick, or let me say, 55 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 1: a major change in the way people are actually like 56 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: watching and engaging. Yeah, and of course this whole life 57 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: phenomenon of people streaming their chess games live, it's part 58 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: of a much bigger phenomenon which I'm really fascinated about. 59 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 1: But I actually haven't like dug into that much, which 60 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 1: is the whole world of like twitch streaming. And there 61 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 1: are people who make lots of money and are just 62 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: incredibly popular, um, playing video games live online. So people 63 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: watching someone play a game like I don't even know 64 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: what a popular game is Halo. I think that's a 65 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: popular game. Stuff like that. I don't know, a World 66 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: of Warcraft or something streaming that live on Twitch people 67 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: have like millions of fans. It's this massive, massive phenomenon 68 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: of which chess is a sort of a small part 69 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, I think that's right. But also, I mean, 70 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: we did see a pick up in people watching video 71 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: games on Twitch. Everyone was stuck at home, You're sort 72 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: of looking for new sources of entertainment, and somewhat surprisingly, 73 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: chess has also been part of that streaming or twitch boom. 74 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: So I am very excited about our guests because not 75 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: only are we going to be talking to someone who 76 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: streams on Twitch, he's also, in his own right, one 77 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: of the best chess players in the entire world Twitch aside. 78 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 1: A real treat to be talking to him about the 79 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: sort of I guess the chess economy. Is actually someone 80 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: we had on years ago on odd Lots to talk 81 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: about trading, and overlapped between chess and trading. But I'm 82 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: very excited we're gonna be speaking to Hikaru Nakamura. He 83 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 1: became a grand master at the age of fifteen, beating 84 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: at the time, breaking the record. Apparently some people have 85 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 1: broken the record for the youngest ever American grand master 86 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: at the time. He's also the highest rated blitz chess 87 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: player in the entire world. Also just one of the 88 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: top players in regular time controls, and he is fantastic 89 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: to watch on Twitch. So Hakara, thank you very much 90 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 1: for joining us. It's good to be here. It's been 91 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 1: quite a while. So what's this year been like? What? 92 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,679 Speaker 1: How do is the what's the post Queen's Gambit world? 93 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: How different is it compared to the pre Queen's Gambit world? So, 94 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: I mean I think, uh, you kind of have to 95 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 1: go back to the beginning of COVID in terms of chess. 96 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: So one of the weird things with chess is that 97 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: Queen's Gambit certainly has been a boom, but there's actually 98 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: another boom um of chess on Twitch, specifically between March 99 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: and about June of this year. So in about March, 100 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: when when um, when the lockdown started happening, everyone was 101 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 1: staying at home, Um, the viewership for chess and the 102 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: viewership in general on Twitch start exploding. Um. But in particular, 103 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: one of the one of the things that's very unique 104 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,799 Speaker 1: to Twitch is that when you see the top streamers 105 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: are top influencers, what they gravitate towards in terms of games. Now, 106 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: I know you mentioned Halo before. If you said that 107 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: on Twitch just two people, they'd be like, you're such 108 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: a boomer polar at all. I don't know anything about 109 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 1: video games. I just that was the first thing that 110 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: came to my head. I knew I was gonna embarrass myself, 111 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 1: and I said, no, it's it's fine. But so like 112 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: this is kind of thing is there are a lot 113 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: of games that people play, and um, one thing that's 114 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: that's uh unique, I think two chess is a sort 115 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: of it's it's it's had this presence offline over the 116 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: board chess has been around, I mean forever basically, but 117 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: online there hasn't really been this interest or there hasn't 118 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: been where you can find people who are streaming it. 119 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: Um in the way that Twitch really sets itself apart 120 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: because with Twitch you can just go you can look 121 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: at the chess category and find people to watch. So um, 122 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: probably in March, I would say March or early April, 123 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: a couple of the biggest streamers on the platform they 124 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: started getting interested in chess and and that sort of 125 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: created this snowball effect where because of them, a lot 126 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: of other streamers started playing chess as well. And um, 127 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: and then then eventually it kind of culminated in this 128 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: major event that we had called pog Champs in June. 129 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: But there was this big boom from like Marcia June, 130 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: then there was sort of it dipped a little bit, 131 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: I would say in July, August, and September. It didn't 132 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: like go down to or was before COVID, before COVID happened, 133 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: but um, around like late October, and then of course 134 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: in November it's it's taken off again. And I would say, actually, 135 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: in many ways, my viewership now is higher than it 136 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: was even at the peak when there was a first 137 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: move on Twitch. I think that's largely because that boom 138 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: in March was solely people who are already on Twitch, 139 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: who are used to watching streamers and influencers on the 140 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: platform where it's Queen's gamb But I think a lot 141 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: of people who are just watched the show on Netflix 142 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: and they're like, they weren't on Twitch, or they weren't 143 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: looking on Twitch and YouTube, and then they sort of 144 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: were trying to find chess content, so they end up 145 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: filtering over to both both both platforms. So we're gonna 146 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: get into, um a lot of what's going on on 147 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: Twitch and like the dynamics driving that and things like 148 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: that in more detail. But before we do, since you 149 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: mentioned Queen's Gambit, how accurate was that of a portrayal 150 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: of the world of competitive chess and did you like it? Yeah, So, 151 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: first of all, I love the show. I think in 152 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: terms of chess, whether it's a television show or whether 153 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: it's a movie, it's by far and away the best 154 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: portrayal of chess because there are a lot of there 155 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: are a lot of moments in the show. Um, I 156 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: don't know if you both watched it or not, but 157 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: there were some moments where you see this this this character, 158 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: Benny Watts, who is the United States chess champion, and 159 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: you see him living in this very sort of um 160 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: let's let's just say it's it's not it's not a 161 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: great apartment in New York City, And in many ways 162 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: that's been That's that's a very accurate portrayal because even 163 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 1: the best players in the world of chess, outside of 164 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:41,959 Speaker 1: say the absolute best, like the top two or three players, 165 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: they would not be making a lot of money from 166 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: the game of chess itself. So there are a lot 167 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: of moments in the show when I was watching where 168 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: it's like wow, you know, it reminds me of some 169 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: some experience that I had, or things along those lines. 170 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: So for the most part, is very accurate. The only 171 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 1: part that I think, unfortunately was not so accurate is that, um, 172 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: there are there are some I would I would say 173 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: players don't always treat female players as nicely as a 174 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 1: Beth Harmon is treat in the show, So there there 175 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: can be some there can be a barrier to entry 176 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: for for female players. Um So that's the only thing 177 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: that I would say is not necessarily accurate. But overall 178 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: it's fantastically done and I loved it. Uh So, you 179 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: mentioned that you're in the post Queen's game, but world 180 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: that you're streaming numbers are as high as ever. Let's 181 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: talk about the business of streaming first of all, like, 182 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: how many people watch you at any given time? Typically, right, 183 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: So I so just to give some some some more background, 184 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: I think probably when I when I started treading about 185 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: a year ago and up until maybe January February, I 186 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: would get maybe, let's just say two thousand and three 187 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: thousand viewers concurrent viewers on average, and then during the 188 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: peak when it really started going up in in March 189 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: and April, I was getting around ten to twelve thousand 190 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: every stream. UM, So it went up there, and then 191 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: then there was a summer roll where it dipped a 192 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: little bit below ten thousand years around nine hous of. 193 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: But nowadays, especially the last month or so, I'm getting 194 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: around fifteen to sixteen thousand concurrent viewers um for every stream. 195 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: And when there have been major chess tournaments, which we 196 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: can talk about the sports as well, but when they've 197 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: been major competitions that the peak viewership I've had has 198 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: actually been close to fifty viewers, So it's really really large. Yeah, 199 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: So you mentioned that, Um it all kicked off with 200 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: some existing Twitch streamers who suddenly got interested in chess. 201 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: Why did that happen? And what's what's the overlap between 202 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: the usual video games people are are streaming on that 203 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 1: platform versus the oldest game in the world. So I think, um, 204 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: first of all, it's very tricky because one thing that 205 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: a lot of streamers who do variety where they don't 206 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: just play one game per se. They tend to they 207 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: tend to move around and try to see where they 208 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: get the best audiences, and most people watch. So when 209 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: you think about chess, and especially like in March or April, 210 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: before it had gotten this traction um, you would think 211 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: that most streamers, especially the biggest, one of the biggest ones, 212 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: they'd be worried that their numbers be going down if 213 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 1: they tried to stream chess. UM. But I would say 214 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 1: one streamer in particular, his name is x q c 215 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: o w UM. He started streaming chess pretty much regardless 216 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: of what his viewership was because he loved the game, 217 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: and so naturally more streamers started seeing that and um 218 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: and then beyond that, I think it's just just a 219 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: very easy game to get into. I mean, you don't 220 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 1: you really if you you only have to learn the 221 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: basic rules of how the pieces move, and then you 222 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: can just go off on your own and play games. 223 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 1: Um and so I think it's very friendly and the 224 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: barrier to entry is really low, unlike say a major 225 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: e sport like League of Legends, for example, where you 226 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 1: have to learn all the different basically different champions. You 227 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 1: can pick. You have to learn a lot of different 228 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: strategies there. There there's a lot to learn, and so 229 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: the barrier to entry, even just starting out is very high, 230 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: whereas with chess it's a lot lower. So I think 231 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: I think that's one of the biggest reasons that that 232 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: I started getting going is that there are a couple 233 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: of streams they just like, they didn't care, They just 234 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: love the game of chess and they just started playing 235 00:11:52,080 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: as much as they as much as they could. So 236 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:15,199 Speaker 1: you mentioned in the show that one character, not exactly 237 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: he was like the best player in the US, I guess, 238 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: and his life didn't seem that great. He wasn't like 239 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: rolling in riches. Uh, what is the revenue model for 240 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:29,719 Speaker 1: you in terms of how audience on Twitch is monetized? 241 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: And then what's like the combination of like ads, sponsorship, 242 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: Like how does that all work as a pro Yeah? So, 243 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: um so, so none of this is, to be clear, 244 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: none of this really existed in a substantial way if 245 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,079 Speaker 1: you go back nine months. So I've been very fortunate. 246 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: Um yeah, So in terms of in terms of the audience, 247 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: I think the way that you monetize your viewership is 248 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: when you have very high numbers and you have high 249 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: averages or say the thirty days or periods UM. Sponsors 250 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: see those numbers and then you have you have opportunities 251 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: where their sponsor will come to you in the ask 252 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 1: you to promote their product UM whatever it may be. 253 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: For example, I've done a couple of them, but probably 254 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: I did a bounty the paper towel company. I did 255 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 1: an add for them several months back. And so when 256 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: you have these very high concurrent viewers and these averages UM, 257 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: a lot of sponsors interesting getting their product out there. 258 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 1: And I think this also speaks to media as well, 259 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: that you see more of these sponsors moving, moving to Twitch, 260 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: moving to YouTube, and seeing that in this day and age, 261 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: most people are now like getting their content from the 262 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: internet as opposed to watching on TV. Probably the biggest 263 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: that's the biggest way with the numbers matter. UM. You 264 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 1: can also run run ads. A lot of streamers run ads. 265 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: You can run like thirty second ads, a sixty second 266 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: ad UM or a three minute ads. So that's usually 267 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: the periods of times that you run ads. UM. I 268 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: don't know exactly how that revenue is calculated in terms 269 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: of how much you make, but more viewers you have 270 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: obviously obviously it's higher UM. And then the third third 271 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: part is UM is subscribers. So you can subscribe to 272 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: any channel on Twitch for five dollars a month for 273 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: Tier one. There's a tier two option which is ten dollars. 274 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: I believe in the Tier three which is twenty five 275 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: dollars a month. And basically what you get out of 276 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: this is you get the usage of the emotes. So 277 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: I don't know how familiar the audience is going to 278 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: be with Twitch, but when you go on Twitch, a 279 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: large part of it is the interaction between the streamer 280 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: and the community itself. So when you're watching the chat scroll, 281 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: a lot of times are these emotes. They're basically like 282 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: where they just you know, things are moving and and 283 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: it just becomes this big community and so a lot 284 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: of people subscribe for that on top of essentially just 285 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: supporting the streamer as well. So it's it's very similar, 286 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: I would say, to like tipping, but you get some 287 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: added benefits on top of that. Yeah, so I wanted 288 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: to ask you about this. I guess that interactive element 289 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: of Twitch streaming. So we already mentioned UM that you 290 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: you play blitz or speed chess, and I think you're 291 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: sort of known for playing in a very specific way, 292 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: and and you've done stuff in the past like playing 293 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: blindfold matches or matches without means and rooks and things 294 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: like that. Do you think your particular style of chess 295 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: is especially well suited to a live platform like Twitch 296 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: And is there anything that you do um or that 297 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: you've started to do in order to adapt to that platform. 298 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: So I think, um, certainly, I'm very well adapted to 299 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: it because when when when I look back to when 300 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: I was much younger, some of my earliest experiences of 301 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: playing chess were on the Internet. I used to play 302 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: on the site called the Internet. I was like ten 303 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: or eleven years old, and in many cases I would 304 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: play games I would actually type at the same time. 305 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: So it was basically I play the games that I'd 306 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: be talking to people via typing because at the time 307 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: there there there wasn't a technology. Um. So in many ways, 308 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: I think I'm very fortunate that I had that. That 309 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: certainly has helped me transition onto Twitch. Um. I don't think. 310 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: I don't think I've really had to change anything specifically. 311 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: The one thing that I have done is I've tried 312 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: to make chess much more friendly to the people who 313 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: are not, say, grand masters the game. So you know, 314 00:15:57,800 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: like joke could joke, Joe could allude to this, but 315 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: when he watches I definitely will use certain words at 316 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: times that make no sense whatsoever. So if you spend 317 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: if you spend a lot of time playing chests, and 318 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: you tune into my stream, you might be like, wait, 319 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: what did you just say? What? What's that piece? What's 320 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: what's going on? Because I use some some some jargon 321 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: that's not not standard per se. So that's the one 322 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: thing I have done. But I think a large part 323 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: of it, and probably the biggest reason that I have 324 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: the success I do is um the fact that I 325 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: am as good at chess as I am over the board, 326 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: having that, having that credibility, and the fact that I 327 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: can also play the games and more or less in 328 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: some cases just talk to the audience while I'm playing 329 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: the game, still win most of the time. All Right, 330 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: here's a stupid question that I've been wondering about the 331 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: whole time, and I have to say, like I've tuned 332 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: into a bunch of your streams, I find it really enjoyable. 333 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: I think you're sort of a natural host, extremely engaging. 334 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: It looks like you're having a fun time. It's clear 335 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: the your fans are enjoying it. What if someone is 336 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: is someone you're playing against, did they ever watch it? 337 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: Like you're talking about your thinking, you're talking about potential moves, 338 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: you're talking about, you know, certain ideas that you may 339 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 1: be exploring in the game. Does it ever happen? But 340 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 1: like the person on the other end is like watching 341 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: you talk through the game. So this is this is 342 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: uh common I think to to streaming in general. It 343 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: doesn't matter whether its chess or other games. What you're 344 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: referring to is essentially called stream sniping, or someone watches 345 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 1: the stream and so like you know, if it's it's 346 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: like a shooter game, for example, you're on a map, 347 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: someone someone will watch a stream, will try to magically, 348 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: they'll they'll see where you know, there's there's a name 349 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: for this phenomenon. Yeah, it's called stream sniping. So so 350 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 1: that's what it's called. Yeah, So I mean it does 351 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 1: happen from time to time. Again, um, there there's a 352 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 1: difference in the competitions when I when I'm normally just 353 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 1: in my regular streaming, it's more it's more for fun, 354 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 1: it's it's just sort of in the spirit. So it 355 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 1: does happen from time to time, but but very rarely 356 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: doesn't really affect the outcome of the game per se 357 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: um and most players don't do it, so it's not 358 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: that big of an issue. Um. When it comes to 359 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: like the more serious competitions, um and just like having 360 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: these these big prize funds, these these sort of east 361 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: work petitions, then then of course I'm not I'm not 362 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: actually usually streaming, but it they compliment each other. So 363 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about the response from I 364 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: guess the traditional chess community. Uh, the game is not 365 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: necessarily known for adapting and evolving that quickly. People have 366 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: been playing well, from my understanding, like fairly similarly for 367 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 1: many many years. Has there been any pushback to playing 368 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: chess in this particular way on this new platform to 369 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: people think that, you know, it's somehow like denigrating the 370 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: game to to be doing it in this way. Yeah. 371 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: So I would say when during the first moment around 372 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: April April and May specifically, there were certainly some people 373 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: who are who are really unhappy to see what was happening, 374 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: because chess has traditionally has been very sort of closed 375 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: or hasn't been much in the way of change. If 376 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 1: you if you look at chess now versus twenty years ago, 377 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: there isn't really much of a difference. It's generally the 378 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 1: same player as it's organizers. Just just the general um, 379 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: the general structure and everything around it has been pretty similar. 380 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: So I think there were definitely people who are upset UM. 381 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: My my argument. I think in many ways the thing 382 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: that is most important and the key is if you 383 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: look at um, if you look at the game of chess. 384 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: I think there have been It's not studies, but I 385 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: think there was. There was a fact that was given 386 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: by the governing body of Chess feed A that said 387 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: approximately five million people or six or a million people 388 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:26,159 Speaker 1: around the world have been exposed to the game of 389 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: chess now. That is a very large number. I don't 390 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: think there's any other game UM sort of basically a 391 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: non sport where you can make that claim that there's 392 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,360 Speaker 1: that number of people worldwide who are familiar with something UM. 393 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,120 Speaker 1: So from that standpoint, when you see a number like that, 394 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: you have to realize the vast majority of those people 395 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: are not people who are going to play the game 396 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: at a high level. Um. In fact, most of those 397 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: people are simply gonna probably know the basic moves or 398 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: know what chess is that you have, you know, the king, 399 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 1: the queen of the bishop, knights and so forth. So 400 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 1: so for that reason, I think when you have such 401 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: a large potential market, it's very important to be inclusive 402 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: of people of all levels. And like, like you were 403 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: saying earlier, Tracy, very often times when someone's new to 404 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: chess and they play the game, let's just say they 405 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 1: start up playing, they lose some games like well, I'm stupid. 406 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: I I you know, I can't play this game. I'm 407 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: just not gonna ever gonna be any good at it. Um. 408 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: I think that's certainly uh turns people off. And so 409 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: you really do need to be very inclusive of everybody. 410 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: And so that's also why, like when when I play 411 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: very oftentimes I do keep it simpler. I do try 412 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 1: to make it more understandable. And also like there are 413 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: many times when I'm streaming, I'll say, oh, what a 414 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: stupid move I made, And to me, it is very stupid. 415 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 1: Because I really like perfection. I try to be the 416 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: best I can. But I think that's also very relatable 417 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: for a lot of the audience because most people are 418 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: watching are not super strong chess players. They're just trying 419 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 1: to get something out of the game of chess. So 420 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: just on that note, again, I haven't spent that much 421 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: time on Twitch, but one of my understandings of it 422 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: is that it's not exactly the friendliest place in the world, 423 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:56,679 Speaker 1: Like a lot of the people who are watching you 424 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: play might be insulting you at the same time and saying, oh, 425 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,199 Speaker 1: you just made a really stupid move. How do you 426 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: How do you deal with that sort of element of 427 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: toxicity when you're trying to make the game as welcoming 428 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: and inclusive as possible. Well, now, now you come to 429 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: basically the thing that makes Twitch the most amazing, which 430 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: is that all channels have moderators, and these are people 431 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: just just normal people on Twitch who for the most part, 432 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: they volunteer their time. They moderate so they can like 433 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: time out a common or block a common and these 434 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: sorts of things. And I'm very fortunate that I've had 435 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 1: a team of moderators over the last couple of years 436 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 1: who really worked very hard to keep the chat as 437 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: friendly as they can. And there are many ways that 438 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 1: you can do that. For example, you can you can 439 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 1: like time out of common, you can block a common 440 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 1: so which just vanishes. You can also ban them from 441 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: the channel. But there are other ways you can do it. 442 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: Where I mentioned emotes, which are like these these gifts, 443 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: they're just like moving emotes on the screen. And sometimes 444 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: the chat becomes too like to rollity, or the comments 445 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 1: are too negative. Sometimes you just turn it into what 446 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: we call emote only, so you can really only right 447 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: with emotes. You can't even like write a comment in 448 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: the chat, and so um. The moderators really in many 449 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: ways or what make Twitch amazing because you have a 450 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: lot of people who volunteer their time. They just love 451 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: watching streamers, they love being on Twitch, and and in 452 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: most cases they do this for free. So that's probably 453 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: that's one of the most important things is having a 454 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: good atmosphere. And I think because of the team of 455 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: mods that I've had at least this year specifically, they 456 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: do a very good job of controlling in and people 457 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: sort of understand what is acceptable and not acceptable. When 458 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 1: you're playing, how do you find who are the people 459 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: you're playing with? I think people just challenge you on 460 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: chess dot Com or you challengers there like a pool, like, 461 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 1: how does that? How does that work? So in most 462 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: cases I will just challenge challenge people to various time 463 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: control and play games, whether it's blitz chess which is 464 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: three minutes, bullet chess which is one minute, or slower control. 465 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: That's one thing. But but but what's really great about 466 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: chess is there's just I feel like, so many, so 467 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: many avenues of content. So I can play blitz against people, um. 468 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: I can do what are called viewer arenas, where people 469 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: who are watching the stream has chance to play against me. 470 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: I can play against subscribers of the channel. I can 471 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: do blindfold games. Um. I can also play occasionally serious 472 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: competitions as well when I'm streaming. So I feel like 473 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 1: there's just so many possibilities, um, in terms of content 474 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: that I mean, that's that's why CHEST is still booming 475 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: even now, um because there's just so many different ways 476 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: of of doing various ideas with CHEST content that a 477 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: lot of the fans enjoy. Could you, in theory play 478 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: a few games against a podcast post on the day 479 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: that U a podcast that you were on came out? 480 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, of course I could. Yeah, it's very unsettled. 481 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: So actually, um, we we did a test I think 482 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 1: it was maybe a month it was a little over 483 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: a month ago where I played um against I believe 484 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: seventy I think it was seventy seven players at the 485 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: same time. So I was streaming I played against seventy 486 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: seven players at the same time. And actually we did 487 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: like there was a little bit of an entry fee 488 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: to play, but all the money was was donated to 489 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 1: doctors without boarders, and we just did this sort of 490 00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: on the fly. There was nothing specific set up, but 491 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: we just we just did it. So, yeah, it's it's 492 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: definitely possible we should do We're that happen. Yeah, we 493 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: should do a finance Twitter chess tournament like we did 494 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: with poker and just have a bunch of people play. 495 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: That's a good idea, Yeah, and then donate it to charity, 496 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: which is what we did and then got all our 497 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: credit cards to fraud it. So that was fun. Hopefully 498 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: that doesn't happen again. Okay, I had a question actually 499 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: on a related note, I was watching some of your 500 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: videos and I saw a few of them. In a 501 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: few of them, you take on bots, like there's one 502 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: here saying that you took down like all of Chess 503 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: dot com spots and things like that. Um, why is 504 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: that interesting to people? And is it different playing against 505 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: bots live in this way, you know, on a streaming platform, 506 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 1: in a very speedy way to taking down a real 507 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 1: life opponent. Um. Yeah, So I think that's what you're 508 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: referring to was where there was a competition amongst chess 509 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: streamers where we played against the I think thirty or 510 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: third five programmed boughts that they have on Chess dot Com. 511 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: Each one has a different personality and different skill level. 512 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: So the reason that I think people enjoy watching that 513 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 1: is because they see they see the challenge like it 514 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: starts out really easy. You play against these bots that 515 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,360 Speaker 1: are basically beginners, and by the end they're they're essentially 516 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: better than than all all the human players are. So 517 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: I think players like to see the progression. Um. But 518 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: that's the second thing is that a lot of the 519 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: is that it's not just Twitch. So a lot of 520 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: my content I also upload to YouTube as well, because 521 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,959 Speaker 1: strangely enough, the the YouTube audience is actually significantly different 522 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: from the Twitch audience. There are a lot of people 523 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: I feel like there are a lot more people from 524 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: outside the US will watch YouTube versus Twitch, which I 525 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 1: think is very it's very it's very North America cent 526 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: strict to the U. S And Canada. Do you think 527 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: that if Tracy and I um did a thing on 528 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 1: Twitch where we like had our Bloomberg terminals on the 529 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: screen instead of the chessboard and talked through charge to 530 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: talk to macro and talk trading, that would be popular. Um. Yeah, 531 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 1: So there is a streamer who has had quite a 532 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 1: bit of success um streaming about finance on Twitch. I 533 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: I don't remember his name right off, will definitely try 534 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: try to find it, but um, that's one of the 535 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: great things about twitched as well. So so for example, 536 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: just briefly about politics. So, so obviously there's a presidential election, 537 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: and I think when the election happened, or when the 538 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: debates were happening, at some point there were maybe three 539 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: hundred thousand plus people on Twitch. We were watching a 540 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: couple of the biggest streamers talk about it or just 541 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: watch the debate itself. And I think there was a 542 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: New York Times article about it. There are several other 543 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: articles and also I think at one point uh Aoc, 544 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: Alexandria Okasia Cortez. She actually played played on Twitch with 545 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 1: some other streamers, and when she did, at one time 546 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 1: there were, um there were I think about four thirty 547 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,959 Speaker 1: thousand people who watched her stream, and that I think 548 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: was the second or third highest ever on the platform. 549 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 1: So it across the board, there are many, many opportunities, 550 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: and I think people are saying I think especially like 551 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: big sponsor as, these big companies are seeing that people 552 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: are watching more and more content on the platforms like 553 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 1: Twitch and YouTube. So you mentioned towards the beginning of 554 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: this episode Benny Watts from Queen's Gambit and how he 555 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: was living in this really decrepit basement apartment in New York, 556 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: and that was an accurate depiction of how chess players exist, 557 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: and many of them don't actually make that much money 558 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: and can't exist purely off the game. Is Twitch going 559 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: to be enough to change the economics of competitive chess? 560 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: And secondly, are there any other ways that that the 561 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,919 Speaker 1: economics of competitive chess are actually changing at the moment. 562 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: So at the moment, I mean, it's just pre covid. 563 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: I would say that no, that the economics of chess 564 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,439 Speaker 1: we're not changing. It's something where maybe the top twenty, 565 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: top thirty players in the world make a pretty good living. 566 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,479 Speaker 1: Everyone after that and you struggle going from tournament tournament, 567 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 1: you pay your expenses. It's a very difficult lifestyle. UM 568 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 1: now because of Twitch, what you're having, first of all, 569 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 1: is you're having a lot of straight rumors who are 570 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: I would argue, making more money than everyone except the 571 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 1: top twenty players in the world from streaming uh. And 572 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: beyond that, the economics have changed because now you're having 573 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: more major tournaments being held online. And the reason that 574 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: that's different is because when you have these eyeballs, when 575 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 1: you have the numbers of the concurrent viewers and you 576 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: can show that to brands, it's very different than saying 577 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: trying to hold a major tournament over the board at 578 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: at you know, some some some location and try to 579 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: get sponsors. So this is also I would argue that 580 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: when people talk about like UM trying to be you know, 581 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: preserve the game as it is, you want more people 582 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: watching the game because that's gonna lead to more sponsors, 583 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: which then can potentially shake up the structure. You can 584 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: have more and more people playing tournaments online and making money. 585 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: So I'm very hopeful that Chess can potentially become an 586 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: e sport down the road. And um. On that note, also, 587 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: like I actually signed a deal in in August with 588 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: one of the sports organizations t SM or Team SoloMid 589 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: uh To to sort of repped them and Peo part 590 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: of their chess teams. So it's a lot of stuff 591 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: is going on that's cool. So do you ever play 592 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: anything besides chess on Twitter? So from time to time, 593 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: I do. UM. I mean I've I've played games like 594 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: among Us, which is the game that you c was playing. Uh, 595 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: I've I've played, Um what else have I've played on stream? 596 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: I've also played Fortnight, I've played Call of Duty. UM. 597 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: It's not something that I do frequently because most of 598 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,719 Speaker 1: my audience they do watch me for the chess um. 599 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: But again, I think from time to time they people 600 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: do enjoy seeing that because one of the things that 601 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: I would say is very unique to me specifically is 602 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: that I am. I do stream a lot um, but 603 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: I do have that credibility as a very strong chest 604 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: for one of the top one of the top of 605 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: the world, Whereas there are a lot of other chest 606 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: streamers who are successful, but none of them really have 607 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: that sort of um, that long history of playing the game. 608 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: So I think because of that, when people see me 609 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: playing so much and always being so so good and winning, 610 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: you know, winning almost almost all the time, when I 611 00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: start playing other games, or you know, I do something 612 00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: that looks dumb or it looks clumsy, it's I think. 613 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: I think it's good for people because it kind of 614 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 1: it puts it all in perspective that, yes, I'm really 615 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: good at chuss, but you know I I can be 616 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: bad at other games, not just automatically genius at everything. 617 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: So a lot of what you're discussing in terms of 618 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: getting ads and sponsorship, it kind of reminds me of 619 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: the Instagram economy and being an influencer on that platform, 620 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: and often on that platform you have to go out 621 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: and sell yourself and you have to think about your 622 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: particular brand, your content, what you're offering that no one 623 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: else does, and which companies might see that as beneficial 624 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: to them. Is it similar on Twitch and does that 625 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: mean that it might take a different skill set to 626 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: be commercially successful on that platform to you know, playing 627 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: competitive chess in the old fashioned or traditional way, do 628 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: you have to sell yourself in a particular way that 629 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: that you didn't have to do in competitive chess tournaments. Well, 630 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: I think, first of all, I'm very lucky because I 631 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: do have an agent UM and I am represented by 632 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: a United Talent agency, so I don't actually have to 633 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: do the selling of myself per se UM. But most 634 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: of the time what happens is like the agent will 635 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: come to me and he'll ask me about you know 636 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: this brand or that brand. Do you want to do 637 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: sponsored streams? How do you want to promote them? Does 638 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: it fit in well with what you do? And one 639 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: thing is I have a lot of people who watch 640 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: my stream as well because I tend not to you know, curse, 641 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,959 Speaker 1: I don't. I keep the language pretty pretty PG and 642 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: so there are a lot of kids who watch my stream. 643 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: So I am very cognizant of that in terms of 644 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: in terms of sponsors that I want to be talking 645 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: about representing UM now over the board. This is one 646 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: thing that's very I mean, it's it's very odd to 647 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: me just thinking about my whole career being being a 648 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: pro chest player for for the last decade or more UM, 649 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: which is that I struggled very very much to get sponsors, 650 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: Like it was very difficult getting sponsors when I would 651 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: go compete and play over the board tournaments, and I 652 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: think again, it's because it's not something that you can 653 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: directly quantify, like I can say I play this tournament 654 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: and the organizers might say, well, you know, we have 655 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: X amount of viewership online, but it's not it's it's 656 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: I think, a lot harder of a cell. Whereas when 657 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: you're stay streaming on Twitch, I can say, well, you know, 658 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: I had this number of viewers, that's what I had, 659 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: or I've had this number of last three days. It's 660 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: right there. It's quantifiable in a way that um, I 661 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 1: think trying to get sponsors for over the board chess isn't. 662 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: And so I think that's why. Um that's also why 663 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: I think chess is very well suited for being on 664 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: the internet, because the whole audience or the audience is 665 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: already online when they watched the over over the board 666 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: tournaments as well. Magnus has been in like Perfume Adge 667 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: and Calvin Kleinas and stuff, hasn't he m hmmm, yeah, 668 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: I mean that's that's one thing that's really difficult about 669 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: chess is that there are certain places where it chess 670 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: is really revered. It's viewed as something that's like a sport. 671 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: It's like super serious. I mean people like Magnus Norway. 672 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: I mean he's probably one of the five most popular 673 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: people in the whole country. Um. And so in some 674 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: countries it's like that. But say in the US, for example, 675 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,479 Speaker 1: I mean I'm I mean as a streamer. Now I'm 676 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: being an influencer and being on Twitch, I think I'm 677 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: much more recognizable. But prior to this boom, I mean 678 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: I was essentially nobody. I mean, people knew who I 679 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 1: was to some degree, but it wasn't something um where 680 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: I was really known. And that that tends to apply 681 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: to most places, um in terms of chess, But there 682 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: are there are a handful places where where it's really 683 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 1: really serious and people view it as a major sport. 684 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: It's and um and so there's a lot of reverence 685 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: given towards towards players and towards the game in general. 686 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: Why has the US lag behind some other places in 687 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: terms of making chess a big thing that people are 688 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: really dedicated to? And and secondly, are there any efforts 689 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: under way to try to change that? Are people actively 690 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: trying to develop US chess? Rex Singfield. He's a he's 691 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: a billionaire. Um he was the co founder of Dimensional 692 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 1: Fund Advisors A E. T. S. I mean they basically 693 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: et F s um he uh. He's done a law 694 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: for chess, probably is starting around two thousand and ten, 695 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,879 Speaker 1: so so essentially the last decade or so. St. Louis 696 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: started out by holding the US Championship, the US Women's Championship, 697 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: in the U S Juniors Championships, so those were the 698 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: championships for best players overall, the best female players and 699 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: also the best junior players under the age of twenties. 700 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: So they started out with holding those major events, but 701 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,439 Speaker 1: now they started holding tournaments for um uh, for trying 702 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: to get the titles like International Master, grand Master and 703 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: so forth. They I think there are programs at St. 704 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: Louis University, Webster University, and I think Lyndon would also. 705 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: Those are three universities in St. Louis. So there's been 706 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: a big push in St. Louis, which I think is 707 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,399 Speaker 1: really important because a lot of times kids stopped playing 708 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: the game around the time that they're about sixteen seventeen, 709 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 1: which is normally when you have to make the decision 710 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: whether you're gonna be a pro chess player or whether 711 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 1: you're going to say, go to school and pursue a 712 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: different career. And having these opportunities I think has led 713 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 1: to a lot of junior players continuing to play the 714 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: game now, and um, there there is an American player 715 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: right now who's actually I think the number number two 716 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: ranks player in the world under the age of I 717 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: believe twenty one. So uh St Louis has been at 718 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: the forefront of trying to um of trying to promote 719 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: US chess specifically, and then in terms of why its 720 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: chests lagged behind in the US, I would say in 721 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: large part that's because after the Fisher boom in the 722 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: nineties seventies, for about twenty to thirty years, the interest 723 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: just waned and and kind of die. It died out. 724 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 1: There just wasn't much interest in the game until a 725 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: new generation came around. So that's that's also why when 726 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: I look at this boom on on Twitch or on 727 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: the internet in general, UM, I try to do as 728 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: much as I can to try and push chus and 729 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: promote chess because I've seen these boom to bus cycles 730 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: happen at least two or three times actually in my 731 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 1: lifetime alone. So so I try to do what I 732 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: can to keep keep pushing it ahead. So my daughter 733 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 1: is four and a half, actually she's almost five, and 734 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: I'm trying to teach her chess. And I started with 735 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 1: like rook end games, like her having two rooks against 736 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: my king to see if she could check. Is that 737 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 1: a good start? Yeah? So I I actually remember one 738 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: of the first checkmates I learned was King and Queen 739 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 1: against King. And I think the basic checkmates are really 740 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 1: really really important. Um. You know, one thing I would 741 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,880 Speaker 1: say that really makes chess also unique besides you know 742 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 1: everything else, is that you can do puzzles, like you 743 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: can do these puzzles on an iPad um on your 744 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: computer where you just learn these basic checkmating patterns and 745 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: you can do puzzles over and over and over again. 746 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: And when I think of a lot of other major 747 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 1: E sports and a lot of games like for example, um, 748 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,839 Speaker 1: something you know, like like a shooter game like Call 749 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: of Duty, it's it's very much in the moment, like 750 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: you try to make sure you aim correct, you try 751 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: to get the best um best spot when you're shooting, 752 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: and so forth. But it's not something where you can 753 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 1: replicate it or do it again in exactly the same way. 754 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: It's always gonna be different and sort of the instincts 755 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: or the skill on the spot. And with chess you 756 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,839 Speaker 1: can go back and always like reap a game, start 757 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: a new game, you can do puzzles. It's just very easy, 758 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: I think, to get into it. And that's why a 759 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 1: lot of people, um are, I think, are finding it 760 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: once again after not playing for a while. This was 761 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,919 Speaker 1: something I was wondering after watching Queen's Gambit. Actually, so 762 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: a prominent part of that series for anyone who hasn't 763 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: seen it yet, is this genius chess player. The main 764 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,720 Speaker 1: character of the story, she sort of at night sits 765 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: there and thinks and envisions chess plays on on the 766 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: ceiling of her bedroom, and you can see her sort 767 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: of thinking through all the different permutations, the ways that 768 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: the pieces could actually move on the board. How much 769 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: of being a successful chess player is about memorizing those 770 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: different possibilities versus I don't know if I'm gonna say 771 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: this right, versus sort of actively I don't know, like 772 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: trying to size up your opponent and reacting properly to 773 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,240 Speaker 1: your opponent. Like, how much of it is wrote memory 774 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: and mathematics versus something else. I mean, I think a 775 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 1: large part of it, I mean, up until maybe you're 776 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: a grand master is very much about about like memorization 777 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: of opening strategies, but also the powder recognition of seeing 778 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 1: you know, in peace on certain squares is like in 779 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 1: a sort of sense that there's some sort of combination 780 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,319 Speaker 1: of using one or two of the pieces to create 781 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: a checkmate or to attack your opponents king, and so 782 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,879 Speaker 1: I think a large part is definitely about memorization and 783 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 1: just pattern recognition. If if you're trying to become like 784 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: grand master better. Um, but I think even if you 785 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,439 Speaker 1: don't have that, you can still probably get to about 786 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: an expert level, which is about two thousand elo or 787 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,760 Speaker 1: better than probably I would say ninety percent of players 788 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 1: in the world. So, um, you can still get to 789 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: a very high level even if you don't have everything memorized, 790 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: you know, or you don't have it all down super 791 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: super hard. I have another coin to game big question, 792 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,360 Speaker 1: and this is where I thought that Tracy who was 793 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 1: going to go at the last question, But how prevalent 794 00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 1: is the use of performance enhancing drugs in the world 795 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 1: of top level chess and is that something tested, Like 796 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,239 Speaker 1: what's the deal with stuff like that? So yeah, um, 797 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: I to my knowledge, I don't. I mean, I've never 798 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,759 Speaker 1: come across any any drugs that I think are performance enhancing. Now. 799 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 1: I know, for quite a while the governing body Feeding 800 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 1: they were trying very hard to get chess into the Olympics. 801 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,840 Speaker 1: So at the Chess Olympics, which are held every two years, 802 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: they were doing drug testing. Um, I think the last 803 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,319 Speaker 1: like three or four then they did. But other than 804 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: I think adderall and um, there's madefinitely think that that 805 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 1: same thing. But I think there are a couple of 806 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: drugs that are banned and they try to say you 807 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: can't have more than three or four cups of coffee. 808 00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:40,719 Speaker 1: But that's about the extent in terms of what they 809 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 1: consider performance enhancing drugs. So No, as far as far 810 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,440 Speaker 1: as I know, I don't think they're there. There really are. 811 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 1: Now maybe maybe people will prove me wrong, but it's 812 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: not something that that i've that's widespread or is even known. 813 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 1: Most players don't don't don't do drugs. Um. Is there 814 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: anything else you see coming out on the horizon of 815 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:03,439 Speaker 1: the world of chess that's going to be the next 816 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: big thing. So this year we had the shift to 817 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: streaming and we had Queen's gambit. Is there's something else 818 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,839 Speaker 1: that you're keeping your eye on at the moment, Well, 819 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: right now there's I mean, I think the final part 820 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 1: of it for me that I see is UM is 821 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 1: chest becoming sort of a bona fide East sport, and 822 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 1: what I mean by that is having top level competitions 823 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 1: with with you know, with some frequency like once a 824 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 1: month or thereabouts. And actually at the moment there is 825 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,799 Speaker 1: what's called the Chess Champions Tour where they're holding one 826 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,360 Speaker 1: online tournament every month. So the first one was in November, 827 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,400 Speaker 1: there will be one in December, one in January, all 828 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,439 Speaker 1: the way out through I think October of next year. 829 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: And these prized ones are very substantial. I think the 830 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,719 Speaker 1: first prize of the event that I just played was 831 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:44,880 Speaker 1: the thirty thousand dollars. The next one will be sixty 832 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,200 Speaker 1: thousand UM, so the prizes are quite large. And I 833 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,399 Speaker 1: think once you have these events established, you're the top 834 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,880 Speaker 1: players competing, UM, you'll have more sponsors involved, and I 835 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 1: think chess can become very very big. So that's really 836 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:57,840 Speaker 1: what I'm looking forward to the most is seeing if 837 00:40:57,920 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 1: chess can become a true e sport the way like 838 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 1: say doughte or a league of legends have become around 839 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,440 Speaker 1: the world. All right, So what I play? I, As 840 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 1: I mentioned at the beginning, I don't have much time 841 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: to play. I sometimes like play in between like a 842 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,919 Speaker 1: meeting or something like that. I'm about fifteen hundred right now, 843 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,799 Speaker 1: I'm blitz. Should I if I want to like get 844 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 1: up to say, like eighteen hundred. Should I spend more 845 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: time learning openings and really like sort of like committing 846 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:29,839 Speaker 1: those two memories, Or should I spend time doing tactics puzzles? Um, 847 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: if you have to pick one, I would say tactics puzzles. 848 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 1: But I think mainly you're at a level where you 849 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,719 Speaker 1: should have a pretty good, um, you should have pretty 850 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:37,920 Speaker 1: good powdered recognition. So I think mainly it's just playing 851 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,640 Speaker 1: as much as you can. Thank you, Thank you for 852 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 1: that endorsement of playing as much as I can. I'll 853 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: keep doing that. Yeah, I mean, that's one thing that's 854 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 1: very interesting is when they we have this term called 855 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,480 Speaker 1: plock chats, which featured streamers. A lot of streamers had 856 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 1: some understanding of the game, but they they're they're pretty 857 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,359 Speaker 1: new to it, and so in cases like that, it's 858 00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,439 Speaker 1: very important that they sort of do puzzles to try 859 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,439 Speaker 1: and get add recognition. But you're already past that stage 860 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 1: where you're sort of a I would say, you know, 861 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,000 Speaker 1: intermediate ish player, and so you've already had quite a 862 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 1: bit of experience with puzzles. So if there, it's more 863 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 1: I think just playing as much as you can, because 864 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 1: you're gonna you're gonna pick up the you're gonna see 865 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,359 Speaker 1: what you did wrong games much more easily than someone 866 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:17,960 Speaker 1: who's new the game. We're say, if I'm totally new 867 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 1: and I play a game, I don't know what to 868 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:21,400 Speaker 1: look for. Once I've lost a game, I just go 869 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 1: start the next game, but I'm not really learning anything 870 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 1: per se. Whereas because you've played quite a bit, I 871 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,319 Speaker 1: think it's more likely you're gonna be able to pick 872 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,320 Speaker 1: up on what you did wrong. And so that's where 873 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 1: playing a lot will really come in handy for someone 874 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,920 Speaker 1: like you. Well, I think on that note, uh Carlo, 875 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,400 Speaker 1: there is a great place to leave it. Really appreciate you, 876 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,480 Speaker 1: uh joining us, and I will definitely take internalize your 877 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 1: advice to play as much as possible to improve my game. Great, well, 878 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 1: it's great, it's great talking to you guys. Once again. 879 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,160 Speaker 1: We should do the we should do the charity tournament. 880 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,520 Speaker 1: Yeah sure, yeah that would be great. Yeah we can 881 00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 1: we can figure that out. But that that would be awesome. 882 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:20,960 Speaker 1: All right, Thanks to car. Really appreciate it, no problem. 883 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,400 Speaker 1: Talking to Hakara was really fun. And I think, like 884 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,759 Speaker 1: just anyone listening to that and anyone can see he's 885 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,400 Speaker 1: just like a very like easygoing, um sort of positive person. 886 00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:32,720 Speaker 1: I think you could sort of understand why, in addition 887 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,319 Speaker 1: to be really good at chess, like why he's a 888 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,840 Speaker 1: popular person to watch on Twitter. Yeah, this was what 889 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: I was sort of trying to get it with a 890 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,160 Speaker 1: few of the questions. I think it maybe does take 891 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: a particular personality and a particular brand to become that 892 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,799 Speaker 1: successful on a streaming platform. But I have to say 893 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,719 Speaker 1: Karu is really nice, and I personally, as someone who 894 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,359 Speaker 1: doesn't play much, endorse his message of making it as 895 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: accessible as possible to a wide range of people. He's 896 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:09,839 Speaker 1: really nice, And I also think that's like kind of 897 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:14,279 Speaker 1: different from the like traditional like chess master stereotype. I 898 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,239 Speaker 1: don't know if the chech master stereotype, but you know, 899 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:17,680 Speaker 1: you always sort of think of these sort of like 900 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: dark intellectual types to like get really angry and like 901 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,560 Speaker 1: knock over the board when someone you know makes a 902 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 1: wrong pawn move or something like that, And that's not 903 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 1: his vibe at all. Um, it's certainly not how it 904 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 1: comes off. I don't know, maybe like when he's like 905 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,640 Speaker 1: practicing for like true like grand master tournament play, he's 906 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,680 Speaker 1: more severe, But um, you know it really comes through, 907 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 1: and I think, like you know, it lends itself to 908 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:43,479 Speaker 1: this sort of this new era of the game. Yeah, 909 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 1: I guess the stakes are lower when you're you're streaming 910 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,520 Speaker 1: on Twitch. I suppose people get mad if you make 911 00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,279 Speaker 1: a wrong move with a pawn, if you like mess 912 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,879 Speaker 1: up their game or their strategy. No, I think it's 913 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,400 Speaker 1: like did you ever see that movie like Searching for 914 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:02,120 Speaker 1: Bobby Fisher where it's like the teachers like teaching the 915 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 1: kid how to play, and he's like, it's like more 916 00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:10,760 Speaker 1: like the stereotype of like the stern old chess master 917 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 1: like teaching. Remember even like the guy like in the 918 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,680 Speaker 1: in the show Queen's Gambit, like you know, the teacher 919 00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:20,200 Speaker 1: in the basement, he took it very seriously. That's true, right, 920 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:22,960 Speaker 1: Like that kind of vibe, I think, yeah, but that 921 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,480 Speaker 1: is I mean, it feels like that's the vibe that 922 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:30,400 Speaker 1: we are beginning to see change slightly. You have this 923 00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,120 Speaker 1: cultural movement in the form of Queen's Gambit, you have 924 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:37,319 Speaker 1: these new online economics and dynamics that might be reshaping 925 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 1: the game. And speed chess or blitz chess is a 926 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,640 Speaker 1: pretty good example of of one way that maybe it's 927 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,360 Speaker 1: involving in one way that it might become more popular. 928 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: And I guess Hikaro made the point that this has 929 00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 1: happened before, and we've had these boom bust cycles, but 930 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:58,960 Speaker 1: maybe this is a significant one. Yeah, hopefully and hopefully 931 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,160 Speaker 1: at last, because it's a pretty fun I enjoy it. Okay, 932 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,560 Speaker 1: all right, shall we leave it there? Yeah, let's save 933 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,799 Speaker 1: it there. This has been another episode of the All 934 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,719 Speaker 1: Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on 935 00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:15,200 Speaker 1: Twitter at Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe wisn't Thal. You 936 00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:19,239 Speaker 1: can follow me on Twitter at the Stalwart. You can 937 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:23,680 Speaker 1: follow our guest on Twitter, Hacarl Nacklemara. He's at Gmhicaru 938 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,960 Speaker 1: and on Twitch. He's also GM Hakaru. Definitely check him 939 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:32,239 Speaker 1: out there very fun. Follow our producer Laura Carlson at 940 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:36,080 Speaker 1: Laura M. Carlson. Follow the Bloomberg head of podcast, Francesca 941 00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,480 Speaker 1: Levie at Francesca Today, and check out all of our 942 00:46:39,480 --> 00:47:00,640 Speaker 1: podcasts under the handle at podcasts. Thanks for listening to 943 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:08,120 Speaker 1: the year