Speaker 1: Hey, Daniel. So we did an episode about teleportation, whether
Speaker 1: it's possible to go from one point in space to
Speaker 1: another point in space instantly, that's right, without actually moving
Speaker 1: through space. And the episode was very popular, but we
Speaker 1: got a ton of comments on Twitter and the Facebook's
Speaker 1: about something we may have missed. That's right. A lot
Speaker 1: of people commented that we didn't talk about one possible way,
Speaker 1: one important possible way to move to another part of
Speaker 1: the universe very rapidly. Yeah, like there's a loophole in
Speaker 1: the laws of the universe. Perhaps I don't think this
Speaker 1: counts as a loophole. I don't think it counts as teleportation,
Speaker 1: but we'll dig into it. Him and I'm Daniel. Welcome
Speaker 1: to our podcast. Daniel and Jorge explain the Universe, in
Speaker 1: which a physicist and a cartoonist try to take the
Speaker 1: universe apart, break it into pieces you can understand, and
Speaker 1: download them one at a time into your brain. Today
Speaker 1: on the episode, we're going to talk about possible loophole
Speaker 1: in the laws of physics worm more molds. A lot
Speaker 1: of people commented when we talked about teleportation that wormholes
Speaker 1: might be another way to get from one place in
Speaker 1: space to another place in space without actually moving through space.
Speaker 1: And I'm going to take issue with that that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: wormholes might let you move um rapidly from one place
Speaker 1: in space to another, but it's not technically teleportation. But
Speaker 1: we'll dig into that in a moment. So, yeah, wormholes,
Speaker 1: they're they're kind of the basis of one of my
Speaker 1: favorite movie sci fi movies, which is Okay, good Contact interest,
Speaker 1: Why is Contact your favorite movie? It's one of my
Speaker 1: favorite movies just it's such a great, well me made movie.
Speaker 1: The storyline is is great, and it's just kind of
Speaker 1: this great character portrait of Jodie Foster's character kind of
Speaker 1: searching for answers out there in the universe. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: also one of my favorite movies because it touches on
Speaker 1: a bunch of really interesting themes. First of all, of course,
Speaker 1: it's fascinating to have to potentially get a message from
Speaker 1: outer space that's like everybody's dream, right. But the other
Speaker 1: thing I really like about that movie is that it
Speaker 1: shows the process that a lot of the excitement of
Speaker 1: the plot is in unraveling the message. Right. You don't
Speaker 1: just get the message and boom you understand it. It's
Speaker 1: like in English, and it makes perfect sense. It's a
Speaker 1: puzzle and they have to figure it out and think
Speaker 1: about it, and then it clicks into place and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, this gibberish turns into into physics and math.
Speaker 1: And to me, that was really exciting to see that
Speaker 1: process played out. Yeah, and I liked how you Know
Speaker 1: is based on a book written by Carl Sagan. Do
Speaker 1: of that, yes, Yeah, And so he really thought about
Speaker 1: the whole process of like, if we had to build
Speaker 1: this giant machine from a message from aliens, have would
Speaker 1: that happen? You know, what sort of international cooperations or
Speaker 1: organizations and how how would the engineering be done? And
Speaker 1: he really thought through all these kind of interesting political details. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think Carl Sagon probably spent a lot of time
Speaker 1: thinking about how to talk to aliens and how to
Speaker 1: respond if they talk to us, and all sorts of stuff.
Speaker 1: I bet that dude smoked a lot of banana peals
Speaker 1: and had a lot of deep thoughts on the topic.
Speaker 1: Ate a lot of banana, right, probably ate a lot
Speaker 1: of bananas as well. That's why I don't think that
Speaker 1: puts you in the same frame of mind is smoking
Speaker 1: the peels. But it's probably helpful. Yeah, but anyways, in
Speaker 1: that movie, Jodie Foster's character goes to another galaxy through
Speaker 1: a wormhole. Like that's what. Sorry, I may have spoiled
Speaker 1: the plot, but they build a machine and it takes
Speaker 1: her through a wormhole and she travels to another part
Speaker 1: of the universe with through it. I think it's okay
Speaker 1: to spoil the plot twenty year old movies at this point,
Speaker 1: or Hey, you don't need to never talk about that movie.
Speaker 1: I think it's all right. Yeah, um, yeah, they in
Speaker 1: that movie they have like this intergalactic network. It's like
Speaker 1: a subway system where you can like zip from one
Speaker 1: place to the other um in order to get around
Speaker 1: and and it's a sort of a common trope that's
Speaker 1: like the thinking of humans as new on the scene
Speaker 1: and then maybe somebody else in the galaxy has already
Speaker 1: built this incredible infrastructure. And it's a common way that
Speaker 1: science fiction writers approached this problem of we're so isolated,
Speaker 1: we're so far from everybody else. How could we possibly
Speaker 1: have either an interstellar civilization of just humans or interact
Speaker 1: with and and live with and develop with and talk
Speaker 1: to communicate with aliens and other star systems When everything
Speaker 1: is so dang far apart. Yeah, so warmholes is kind
Speaker 1: of one way you could do it, at least in
Speaker 1: science fiction, is have these tunnels through space that connect
Speaker 1: really far away points. That's right. Typically you do either
Speaker 1: fasten the light travel or warp speed or wormholes. Right,
Speaker 1: and so we've covered two of those already, So it's
Speaker 1: time to dig into wormholes. Try to jump into the hole.
Speaker 1: It's worm our way into this holy topic. Well, as usually,
Speaker 1: we were wondering how many of you out there knew
Speaker 1: what a wormhole was and whether or not they're real,
Speaker 1: that's right. So I walked around and I asked a
Speaker 1: bunch of random people, one of whom was my wife,
Speaker 1: if they knew what wormholes were and if they thought
Speaker 1: they were a real thing out there in space or
Speaker 1: just sort of an idea and a head of science
Speaker 1: fiction authors, So does have you listening think about it
Speaker 1: for a second. Do you think wormholes are real? And
Speaker 1: do you know what they are? Here's what people had
Speaker 1: to say. Um, and the question was if that would
Speaker 1: be possible. It's a real thing, like it's out there,
Speaker 1: it's pretty somewhere. I don't think so. No, Yeah, that
Speaker 1: seems something like I would see like in a scientific
Speaker 1: or like a sci fi movie. But yeah, I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think they're a real thing. I think so,
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure, all right, I believe it's a distinct possibility.
Speaker 1: I don't. I will not say for sure that it
Speaker 1: is or it isn't, but I do believe the possibility
Speaker 1: remains open that there is ways to traverse through space. No,
Speaker 1: why not? I don't know. They just have this sci
Speaker 1: fi sheen about them. Probably maybe I don't know. I'm
Speaker 1: a chemical engineer, so it was not really my field,
Speaker 1: but it's possible. Yeah, in this case, I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people seem to have heard about wormholes, Like
Speaker 1: almost nobody has said what what the wormhole um? And
Speaker 1: a lot of people believe that they exist and and
Speaker 1: a lot of people believe that scientists will be able
Speaker 1: to make them. Yeah, a lot of people seem to
Speaker 1: know them from science fiction. Like it's kind of a
Speaker 1: well known science fiction idea and used a lot in
Speaker 1: science fiction. Yeah, it's a common trop um to solve
Speaker 1: that problem with with your your plot having people spread
Speaker 1: all over the galaxy. And so it's definitely something we
Speaker 1: should talk about because it's something that's out there. So
Speaker 1: I wonder if if that's a thing, like, if you
Speaker 1: show it enough in science fiction, eventually people will think
Speaker 1: it's just an engineering problem. I thought you were gonna
Speaker 1: say something else. If it's an if it appears in
Speaker 1: science fiction oft enough, does it become real? That would
Speaker 1: be pretty cool, right if if things that were right
Speaker 1: into novels eventually turned out to be reality because they
Speaker 1: were written into novels, that would be a cool sci
Speaker 1: fi novel right there. Yeah, well, sort of in a way.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's sort of becomes possible in the minds
Speaker 1: of people, and so engineers then go like, hey, what
Speaker 1: what will we need to make this happen? And so
Speaker 1: then um, yeah, you kind of have to believe that
Speaker 1: it's possible before you can try to do it, right,
Speaker 1: That's right. It might seem like a bit of a stretch,
Speaker 1: but I definitely include science fiction authors in the sort
Speaker 1: of spectrum of intellectuals who are responsible for creating the future.
Speaker 1: You know, in my mind, he goes from science fiction
Speaker 1: authors who do whatever they need to do to get
Speaker 1: inspired and think of crazy ways that that technology might
Speaker 1: change our society, to physicists who think is that at
Speaker 1: all possible, like even technically that could even ever happen,
Speaker 1: And once physicists sign off on it, then yeah, it
Speaker 1: gets dumped on the engineers like make it so. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But science fiction authors also have to know the science right,
Speaker 1: Like they can't just say like, hey, here, here is
Speaker 1: a pink unicorn that make helps you travel through space.
Speaker 1: Oh man, I don't know how much science fiction. I
Speaker 1: read a lot of science fiction, and a lot of
Speaker 1: it doesn't sound science at all. I just said they
Speaker 1: have to read signs, not understand signs. So what is
Speaker 1: a wormhole? A wormhole is a connection between two parts
Speaker 1: of space that otherwise seem very distant. Okay, And it's
Speaker 1: not a teleportation. It's not like I'm here in Los
Speaker 1: Angeles and I want to go to New York and
Speaker 1: I disappear from Los Angeles and then I appear in
Speaker 1: New York. That's teleportation with you, you appear in another
Speaker 1: place in space without actually moving through space. A wormhole
Speaker 1: is a very different solution. A wormhole says, can we
Speaker 1: create a connection between l A and New York? And
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about elon Musk underground tunnels or anything crazy.
Speaker 1: I'm saying, can you bring those two parts of space
Speaker 1: close together. Can you connect them so that you are
Speaker 1: still moving through space? But that the distance is very short? Right?
Speaker 1: So what does it mean to connect two points that
Speaker 1: are distant to each other? Meaning like, I'm here in
Speaker 1: Pasadena and next to me is another point in space,
Speaker 1: so I can move to that point in space. But
Speaker 1: you're saying that my point in space that I'm in
Speaker 1: right now could also potentially be connected to another point
Speaker 1: far away from here. That's right, And to understand this
Speaker 1: you need to relax a little bit your concept of
Speaker 1: what space is. Right, If you're thinking of space as
Speaker 1: like emptiness, like the backdrop, the stage on which the
Speaker 1: theater of the universe takes place, that's an old idea
Speaker 1: and it makes a lot of sense based on your experience, right,
Speaker 1: that's what how it seems to work. But that's but
Speaker 1: we have a more modern idea of space. Now. Space
Speaker 1: can do all sorts of weird things that that nothingness
Speaker 1: or emptiness or backdrop can't do, right, and most importantly,
Speaker 1: space can bend. Space has a shape. Okay, you know
Speaker 1: this is a very confusing topic for a lot of
Speaker 1: people to get their minds around, meaning that space is
Speaker 1: not rigid, you know, like a big empty warehouse that
Speaker 1: just it's it's there and it's fixed and it's square.
Speaker 1: You're saying space is more like I think the idea
Speaker 1: is more like spaces like like the ocean, you know,
Speaker 1: like it's like like we're swimming in water and this
Speaker 1: thing can kind of squish and bend and flow and
Speaker 1: and and push you in different directions. That's right. The
Speaker 1: ocean is a useful analogy because it tells you that
Speaker 1: this space can do all sorts of interesting things, and
Speaker 1: that we're embedded in it. And it's not an emptiness,
Speaker 1: it's a thing. It's a physical thing with behaviors. Right.
Speaker 1: And a very common way to think about the bending
Speaker 1: of space is to think about the bending of space
Speaker 1: in a higher dimension, and typically people use a two
Speaker 1: dimensional analogy. Now this analogy is flawed for one very
Speaker 1: important reason, which I'll tell you after we're done with
Speaker 1: the analogy, but it is still helpful in thinking about
Speaker 1: how space can move. So typically people think about space
Speaker 1: and two to pensions so that then they can then
Speaker 1: they can think about the bending of space and three dimensions,
Speaker 1: because it's really hard to think in four dimensions, right,
Speaker 1: bending of three dimensional space and four dimensions is hard,
Speaker 1: so let's just start with two. So you imagine your
Speaker 1: typical notion of two dimensional space might be like a
Speaker 1: rubber sheet, okay, and then we think about the bending
Speaker 1: of that spaces that bending in the third dimension, Like
Speaker 1: you put a heavy ball on the rubber sheet. What
Speaker 1: happens while the sheet bends right? Where you can imagine
Speaker 1: twisting a rubber sheet or or folding a rubber sheet over. Right,
Speaker 1: If you fold a rubber sheet over, then two parts
Speaker 1: which would be far apart if you moved along the sheet,
Speaker 1: could be very close to each other in that third dimension, right,
Speaker 1: Or if you roll it up right, imagine rolling up
Speaker 1: a two dimensional um sheet of space, then you have
Speaker 1: like a toilet paper roll or a toilet paper universe
Speaker 1: in which parts of the sheet are touching other parts
Speaker 1: of the sheet that are outside or inside on the roll,
Speaker 1: and then they're actually very close to each other. Oh
Speaker 1: you mean, like I can walk forward for a long
Speaker 1: time and I think I'm going straight, but really I'm
Speaker 1: going around and around this toilet paper. That's right. And
Speaker 1: a wormhole would be a connection that's not along the paper.
Speaker 1: It would be a more complex connection to be a
Speaker 1: connection from one um one roll around to the next roll,
Speaker 1: or to the to the inner roll, or to the
Speaker 1: more outer roll. Or if you imagine just a simple
Speaker 1: simple rubber sheet where you're folding it like a taco,
Speaker 1: it would be a connection between the two sides of
Speaker 1: the taco, and you can go the long way around
Speaker 1: by moving along the sheet. But a wormhole would be
Speaker 1: a more unusual connection, would be a connection that sort
Speaker 1: of shortcuts. And space can do these things, right. We
Speaker 1: know that space is more complicated than just emptiness, and
Speaker 1: it has a shape, and that shape can be complicated. Right.
Speaker 1: It can bend, it can stretch, you can wiggle, it
Speaker 1: can ripple. They could also just have strange connections to it. Right,
Speaker 1: you can connect two parts of space that are distant
Speaker 1: along one path, and you can make them very close
Speaker 1: together on other paths. Right. I thought of a great analogy.
Speaker 1: You know, how you when you're an how to do
Speaker 1: with the banana most it's yellow? Um, you know when
Speaker 1: you're in ikea and you're walking along and you're you know,
Speaker 1: watching all the furnit turn and stuff, and then suddenly
Speaker 1: you come upon like a here, here's a shortgut to
Speaker 1: betting or here's her shortgut to kitchen, and it's like,
Speaker 1: you're like, what what's going on? It's like the Ikea.
Speaker 1: It takes you in a path that curves around every
Speaker 1: every once in a while you can cut through some
Speaker 1: of these folds of your path. That's sort of like
Speaker 1: what a worm hall is, right, that's exactly right. And uh,
Speaker 1: some hot times when I'm in Ikea, I really wish
Speaker 1: I had a wormhole to just get me out of
Speaker 1: here immediately and send me home. Oh my god. Well,
Speaker 1: they really do kind of distort your spacetime in there
Speaker 1: that you never leave. It's like a casino. There's no
Speaker 1: outside windows. You can't tell if you've been there for
Speaker 1: ten minutes or ten hours. It's sort of a nightmare. Now,
Speaker 1: that's a that's a perfect analogy, um, And it shows
Speaker 1: you how there can be two paths to get to
Speaker 1: the same place, right, a long one and a short one.
Speaker 1: And the thing that's tricky for people to understand is
Speaker 1: how this space can be bent. And the problem with
Speaker 1: the analogy we talked about earlier bending of two dimensional
Speaker 1: space in the third dimension, right, it's that third dimension
Speaker 1: that helps you get from one place to the other
Speaker 1: because the bending is in that third dimension. So you
Speaker 1: have to be able to move in that third dimension
Speaker 1: or connect space in that third dimension. The problem with
Speaker 1: that analogy is that we don't think our three dimensional
Speaker 1: space is embedded in some four dimensional space. Right. The
Speaker 1: bending of space is not in some other higher fourth dimension.
Speaker 1: It's intrinsic, okay, rather than extrinsic. It's intrinsic. It's the
Speaker 1: relationship between points in space. It's not that the space
Speaker 1: itself is embedded in some four dimensional space that's twisting
Speaker 1: it like a three D rubber sheet. Right. It's all
Speaker 1: about the relationship between points in space. Right. But I
Speaker 1: guess the weird thing is to think about these forks
Speaker 1: in the road, right, like an I key, I'm walking around,
Speaker 1: walking forward, and suddenly I have two options. I can
Speaker 1: keep going on the loopy path, or I can take
Speaker 1: the shortcut to the next loop. Right, that's right? And
Speaker 1: so what does it mean to connect something in space
Speaker 1: for us? You know? Like, does that mean that I
Speaker 1: can either move to the side of myself or I
Speaker 1: can move a bazillion light years away if I move
Speaker 1: in a special direction. What does that mean to have
Speaker 1: two points connected? That are actually far away. It just
Speaker 1: means that there's two different paths with two different lengths
Speaker 1: to the same place. Right when you say that other
Speaker 1: point is a Brazilian light year was away, Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a bazilion light years the way if you move through
Speaker 1: flat space, right, if you sort of like point yourself
Speaker 1: in that direction and go right. But um, there can
Speaker 1: be another path that's shorter. Right, But how do I
Speaker 1: choose those paths? Like, how do I choose to take
Speaker 1: the shortcut or not the shortcut? Well, there has to
Speaker 1: be a connection there, and that's where the wormhole is, right.
Speaker 1: A wormhole is that kind of connection. It's a connection
Speaker 1: between two parts of space which otherwise are far apart,
Speaker 1: to make them actually closer. And that's why earlier I
Speaker 1: was saying it's not teleportation. You're still just moving through space.
Speaker 1: If we define teleportation as moving to another location without
Speaker 1: moving through space, then a wormhole is not teleportation because
Speaker 1: you're still moving through space. You've just shrunk the distance
Speaker 1: you have to travel by bringing those two things closer together,
Speaker 1: by creating a path between them that's short. And the
Speaker 1: only way this is possible is if space can do
Speaker 1: these weird things. If space can twist and bend and
Speaker 1: and have bizarre shapes to it. M always see you're saying,
Speaker 1: teleportation is more like you disappear from here and you
Speaker 1: appear over there. But traveling through a warm hole is
Speaker 1: basically just um, just still traveling. You're still moving. It
Speaker 1: just so happens to be a shortcut, that's right. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know if you say, hey, can you teleport something
Speaker 1: from the fridge to the couch, and I like, you know,
Speaker 1: make a lasso, and I dragged the fridge over to
Speaker 1: the couch, and I'm like, hey, look, I don't have
Speaker 1: to get off the couch to get something out of
Speaker 1: the fridge anymore. That's not really teleportation, right, I've just
Speaker 1: brought the destination closer to me so that I can
Speaker 1: reach it without getting off the couch. Right, Although for
Speaker 1: me either way, you did it for me, so I'm happy.
Speaker 1: You're like, I don't care about the details. Just get
Speaker 1: me that drink, my next banana, right, I don't pay
Speaker 1: you to bother me with the details. Um. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: so it's a semantic distinction. I only I don't really
Speaker 1: usually care about semantic distinctions, but a lot of people
Speaker 1: were curious about why we didn't talk about wormholes in
Speaker 1: the teleportation episode. And that's why because in my mind,
Speaker 1: it's not really teleportation. Also, it's actually maybe possible, whereas
Speaker 1: teleportation is, like, you know, much more difficult. You're being
Speaker 1: a physics lawyer, Yes, I was being a physicist. That's
Speaker 1: sort of my job, is his lawyer. Before we keep going,
Speaker 1: let's take a short break. So, yeah, so that's a wormhole.
Speaker 1: It's connect It's like when you short circuit two point
Speaker 1: in space. That's right, Yeah, you bring them, you make
Speaker 1: you create a path between them. Um, a short path
Speaker 1: between two points that are otherwise really far apart. That's
Speaker 1: where a wormhole is. Yeah. So this seems to really fantastical.
Speaker 1: Is this real? Is this actually based on the laws
Speaker 1: of physics? That this is possible? It's an amazing idea, right,
Speaker 1: And the craziest thing about it is that it does
Speaker 1: follow the laws of physics. If you brought this concept
Speaker 1: to the International or the Intergalactic or the Universal Court
Speaker 1: of Physics, they would say, yeah, that's allowed. WHOA, what
Speaker 1: does that mean? How kind of how can the laws
Speaker 1: of physics allowed? Is? Well, you know, um, it violates
Speaker 1: our intuition and it seems really odd. But a lot
Speaker 1: of things in the universe violate our intuition and seem odd.
Speaker 1: And those are the most fun things, right, Those are
Speaker 1: the things that make physics so interesting. Um. But we
Speaker 1: say that it's theoretically allowed because we figured out some
Speaker 1: rules of the universe. Right. We watch the universe, We
Speaker 1: watch apples fall off trees, we see balls moving through
Speaker 1: the air, we watch planets go around suns, and we
Speaker 1: observes various things, and then we develop laws that describe them. Right.
Speaker 1: So in this case, we're talking about general relativity, right
Speaker 1: Einstein's field equations. That's say, here are the rules of
Speaker 1: how space can be bent. I remember general relativity described gravity,
Speaker 1: and gravity is not a force like other forces, and
Speaker 1: that we have like a quantum mechanical description of little
Speaker 1: particles being sent back and forth to transmit the force.
Speaker 1: As far as we know, gravity is a bending of space.
Speaker 1: And so general relativity tells us what are the rules
Speaker 1: for bending space? And there's a list of rules. Right,
Speaker 1: space can do this basically do that's basically do the
Speaker 1: other thing. So when we say is something theoretically allowed,
Speaker 1: what we mean is does it follow those rules, Right,
Speaker 1: And so the rules say that you can bend space
Speaker 1: so much that it comes around and kind of touches itself. Again,
Speaker 1: that's right, wormholes satisfy those equations. According to those equations,
Speaker 1: wormholes are allowed. And that that doesn't mean that wormsholes exist, right,
Speaker 1: It means that they are allowed. It's like saying, you know,
Speaker 1: before anybody had ever build a tesla, you might say,
Speaker 1: we'll do the laws of physics prevent anyone from building
Speaker 1: this awesome car. They can go two miles an hour
Speaker 1: and looks really cool. You might say, yeah, the laws
Speaker 1: of physics allow it, but nobody has ever built a
Speaker 1: tesla before. Right, In the same way, worm holes are
Speaker 1: allowed by the laws of physics. But that doesn't mean
Speaker 1: necessarily that there are any, right. And then, and black
Speaker 1: holes were also in this category for a long time, right, Like,
Speaker 1: we thought black holes were possible, but we had never
Speaker 1: absorved one or seen evidence of one. That's right. Black
Speaker 1: holes were just theoretical for a long time. And it
Speaker 1: came about exactly the same way. People were playing with
Speaker 1: the Einstein equations and saying, well, what's the weirdest thing
Speaker 1: we can get space to do? Right? One, can you
Speaker 1: can you do this, can do that, can do this
Speaker 1: other thing? And they found all these solutions to the equations. Right,
Speaker 1: a solution of the equation is a description of space
Speaker 1: that follows all those rules. And from the case of
Speaker 1: black holes, they figured out if you have a really,
Speaker 1: really dense object and you get this bizarre thing in
Speaker 1: space called a black hole. And it was decades before
Speaker 1: anybody actually observed one. It was for a long time
Speaker 1: people didn't know is this just theoretical, I mean, this
Speaker 1: is right, or is it something that's actually real, or
Speaker 1: is it just you know, is it proof that the
Speaker 1: equations are wrong? Right? It sort It seems like a bizarre,
Speaker 1: nonsensical prediction of the equations. And that's the kind thing
Speaker 1: we're always doing in physics. We're saying, let's take the
Speaker 1: equations we have, let's see what they predict, and let's
Speaker 1: go out and look to see if we can spot that.
Speaker 1: Because if you can spot it, it means probably more
Speaker 1: likely that the equations are right, and if we can't,
Speaker 1: then it means more likely the equations are wrong. And
Speaker 1: we keep finding these weird predictions of general relativity that
Speaker 1: turn out to be true. Black holes, gravitational waves, so
Speaker 1: when you say connects two points together in space, like
Speaker 1: like a shortcut, is it only a point or is
Speaker 1: it Could it be like a region of space is
Speaker 1: connected to another regional space or does it only work
Speaker 1: for little, tiny points. That's a great question. There's a
Speaker 1: few different varieties of wormholes. Most of them the opening
Speaker 1: is super duper tiny, and so if anything could even
Speaker 1: go through it, it would have to be like a
Speaker 1: single particle or a single photon or something. But there
Speaker 1: are some theories of wormholes where it could be bigger,
Speaker 1: you know, big enough for you to pass through or
Speaker 1: drive your car through, so you wouldn't have to sit
Speaker 1: on the four or five in traffic. Right. Well, what's
Speaker 1: the difference between these two types of theories? Like how
Speaker 1: can one predict a whole big tunnel? Well, and a
Speaker 1: lot of conceptions. A wormhole is sort of like a
Speaker 1: hole in space. It's like a If you actually found one,
Speaker 1: it would be like a three D object, right, not
Speaker 1: not a two D object. Would be like a sphere, okay,
Speaker 1: And if you went into that sphere, then you would
Speaker 1: appear in another place in space where you would space
Speaker 1: is connected through that sphere, right, So it would be
Speaker 1: like a really strange door, right, and you look at
Speaker 1: the sphere, you can see what's in that other part
Speaker 1: of space, and so it's more than just a point
Speaker 1: that can be larger. And so in theory you could
Speaker 1: you know, go through them. But as we can talk
Speaker 1: about that in a moment about the practicalities of making
Speaker 1: a wormhole and and and the limitations of them. So
Speaker 1: wormholes are theoretically possible, that's right. So there's nothing the
Speaker 1: loss of physics to say wormholes cannot exist. And that's
Speaker 1: just because space can do these weird things, right. It
Speaker 1: can do all these It can twist, it can bend,
Speaker 1: it can be strangely connected. You can only have a
Speaker 1: wormhole where spaces can of bent around and into itself, right.
Speaker 1: And then when these when the space kind of touches
Speaker 1: itself again, that's where the wormhole can happen. It's not
Speaker 1: like an actual tunnel that goes from one part of
Speaker 1: the toilet paper to another part of the toilet paper.
Speaker 1: It's like it's when space kind of touches itself again, right,
Speaker 1: that's right, you'd be traveling no distance. Right. One side
Speaker 1: of the wormhole is exactly the same as the other
Speaker 1: side of the wormhole. You know, there's not like a
Speaker 1: tunnel where like flashing lights and crazy stuff is happening. Um,
Speaker 1: it would be as you pass through, you're on one
Speaker 1: side of it and instantly you're on the other side.
Speaker 1: It's like zero length. Well, boy, that sounds great. So
Speaker 1: you don't have to pack any snacks? That was that?
Speaker 1: Was that the goal of your question? You have just
Speaker 1: in case you need to go fishing on the other side.
Speaker 1: That might be helpful. But yeah, they sound great. They
Speaker 1: sound like like it would cut down or travel time
Speaker 1: to other stars and like like you could just step
Speaker 1: through it and you wouldn't need to pack a lot
Speaker 1: or you have a lot of protection to in a
Speaker 1: space suit or spaceship. Right, it sounds pretty good. It
Speaker 1: does sound pretty good. And so for those folks out
Speaker 1: there who are now like googling how to travel to
Speaker 1: wormholes or you know, looking on kayak to book your
Speaker 1: wormhole ticket, maybe we should bring them down a notch
Speaker 1: and then talk about weather wormholes, Um, how wormholes work
Speaker 1: in reality? Alright, So unfortunately I have a long list
Speaker 1: of reasons here why you will never go through a wormhole.
Speaker 1: Wait me in particular or in particular I'm focusing on you, Horror.
Speaker 1: Everything I do is about you. I'm just I'm not
Speaker 1: skinny enough to fit through what You've been eaten too
Speaker 1: many bananas, I've noticed. Um. No, Problem number one is
Speaker 1: that nobody's ever found a wormhole, right, so we don't
Speaker 1: know if there are any out there. Um. And problem
Speaker 1: number one A is that even if wormholes are theoretically possible,
Speaker 1: we don't know how to make one, right. I mean,
Speaker 1: option one is find a wormhole and go in and
Speaker 1: see where you end up. Right. That's sort of like
Speaker 1: just getting on a random plane at the airport and
Speaker 1: having no idea if you're going to win us Iris
Speaker 1: or you know, Singapore. Right. Well, I guess the question
Speaker 1: is how would you find one? Like? What what would
Speaker 1: what would you look for? Yeah? So, well, how would
Speaker 1: you find a wormhole? It would be pretty tough, right.
Speaker 1: You'd need to sort of spotted the way we spotted
Speaker 1: black holes. Right. We spotted black holes by noticing that
Speaker 1: there was this black spot in space where if something
Speaker 1: passed behind it, it would disappear and no light was
Speaker 1: coming out from it. So for a wormhole, you need
Speaker 1: to see things going into it, right, But then it
Speaker 1: might just look like a black hole. So you need
Speaker 1: to see the other side also, and you need to
Speaker 1: see something coming out of it. So you need to
Speaker 1: see like particle a going in and then that same
Speaker 1: particle coming out the other side. That would be pretty tricky.
Speaker 1: You might find one edge of a wormhole and just
Speaker 1: think it's a black hole. Oh, until you found the
Speaker 1: other side. The one side of the wormhole just looks
Speaker 1: like a black hole. That's right. In fact, a lot
Speaker 1: of the theories of wormholes start from black holes. They
Speaker 1: say that, I am because a wormhole in a black
Speaker 1: hole are very similar, right. They both suck things in
Speaker 1: and then they constrict space down to a very narrow spot.
Speaker 1: The space is very dense inside them. Um, And so
Speaker 1: one side of a wormhole could just look like a
Speaker 1: black hole. Oh. Wormholes do the same thing as black holes.
Speaker 1: They look like a little like a pinch They pinched
Speaker 1: space around them, like they contract space leading up to
Speaker 1: exactly exactly. And you can think of a wormhole sort
Speaker 1: of like imagine whatever visualization you're using for a black
Speaker 1: hole in your head. Now, put two of those together
Speaker 1: with a little pinchy parts touch, and you had a
Speaker 1: sort of flares it like zooms in and then flares
Speaker 1: out again and sort of and on one side you
Speaker 1: have a black hole. On the other side you have
Speaker 1: this thing called a white hole move which is sort
Speaker 1: of the opposite of a black hole. And we should
Speaker 1: do like a whole podcast episode on white holes. But
Speaker 1: what you should know about white holes is that you
Speaker 1: can't enter a white hole, but stuff can leave, So
Speaker 1: it's sort of the opposite of a black hole in
Speaker 1: that sense. Now, no white hole has ever been seen.
Speaker 1: It's just a theoretical concept. But if a wormhole really
Speaker 1: did exist, it would be a black hole pair to
Speaker 1: the white hole. Oh, it's one directional. You can't use
Speaker 1: a wormhole two ways, not that we're aware of, right,
Speaker 1: So that's that's Problem number two is that wormholes are
Speaker 1: a one way trip, and so you might go into it,
Speaker 1: come out in Alpha centauri and be like, wow, I
Speaker 1: forgot to pack my underwear, and now it's too late.
Speaker 1: It's too late. You're going commanded for the rest of
Speaker 1: your galactic existence. That's right, um, But there are deeper
Speaker 1: problems with wormholes. Um. Problem number three is that wormholes,
Speaker 1: as far as we theoretically understand them, are very short lived.
Speaker 1: So if a wormhole is created, the equations of general
Speaker 1: relativity tell us that that pinching point would last very
Speaker 1: very briefly, and then they would snap, and then you
Speaker 1: just end up with a black hole in a white
Speaker 1: hole separated. What wouldn't be connected that general relativity doesn't
Speaker 1: like having a It's not a stable solution, all right.
Speaker 1: It's not something which can exist and and not change
Speaker 1: through time. The equations of general relativity say that um
Speaker 1: space space what doesn't like to be connected that way
Speaker 1: for very long. It's not the low energy configuration. And
Speaker 1: so if a wormhole is created by whatever means, then
Speaker 1: a space would relax by separating back into a black
Speaker 1: hole and in a white hole. Wait, so wormholes are
Speaker 1: not permanent like the curvature. You're talking about a space
Speaker 1: and space looping your on itself. It's constantly moving and changing.
Speaker 1: That's right. It's like a gravitational wave, right. It's not
Speaker 1: a permanent fixture in space. It's a wiggle. And so
Speaker 1: wormholes are like that. Wormholes can be created, though we
Speaker 1: don't know how, but they can be described by the
Speaker 1: equation of general relativity. But they don't last very long.
Speaker 1: They're very short lived. They're like, you know, momentarily existing.
Speaker 1: Oh boy, yeah, that's a problem. So we we can't
Speaker 1: find them and they don't last for very long. That's right,
Speaker 1: But some clever physicists thought up a way to maybe
Speaker 1: make wormholes last a little longer. I have so many
Speaker 1: questions for you, but before we dive in, let's take
Speaker 1: a short break. First of all, can we make wormholes?
Speaker 1: Is that theoretically possible? Like, can we build something that
Speaker 1: would make one? We have no idea. I mean, we
Speaker 1: know that the equations of general relativity allow them, but
Speaker 1: we don't know how to make a wormhole. Um. But
Speaker 1: if we did find a wormhole before it collapsed, some
Speaker 1: physicists worked out a way too to make it last longer.
Speaker 1: For it to be stable, all you need to do
Speaker 1: is stuff it filled with a huge amount of exotic matter,
Speaker 1: which is something we've never seen before and don't know
Speaker 1: if it exists. But if you could create a huge
Speaker 1: amount of it and stuff it inside a wormhole, then
Speaker 1: theoretically you might be able to stabilize the wormhole. Now,
Speaker 1: exotic matter is this weird stuff that has negative mass,
Speaker 1: and you need something with negative mass because it would
Speaker 1: have sort of the opposite gravitational effect of normal mass.
Speaker 1: Normal mass pull stuff together, negative mass would be pushing
Speaker 1: stuff apart. So you stuff that inside the wormhole, it
Speaker 1: was sort of hold it open. So if you could
Speaker 1: find this special impossible mass, and you could also find
Speaker 1: a wormhole and you could throw it in there, it
Speaker 1: might keep the wormhole open for more than that's right,
Speaker 1: But I wouldn't go in there with your kids. On
Speaker 1: the guessing of a bunch of businesses. You could throw
Speaker 1: some bananas in there first, that's right. And you know
Speaker 1: the other problem with wormholes is they might be super
Speaker 1: duper small, right, Even these wormholes were talking about could
Speaker 1: be like plank length size, like ten to the minus
Speaker 1: thirty five wide. Wait, do you mean like the size
Speaker 1: of something that would fit in a wormhole? Is that small?
Speaker 1: That's right. We don't really know, but some theories say
Speaker 1: that wormholes would have to be super duper tiny if
Speaker 1: they exist at all. Right, So that's another disappointing fact.
Speaker 1: And and also the the idea about stuffing it full
Speaker 1: of exotic matter. That would hold the wormhole open, but
Speaker 1: it would also mean you can't go through it, because
Speaker 1: as soon as any sort of normal matter went through
Speaker 1: it, it it would disrupt it, and then the wormhole would collapse.
Speaker 1: So it might be that the wormholes exist, and it
Speaker 1: might be that you can hold them open with exotic matter,
Speaker 1: but then you couldn't go through them, which makes them
Speaker 1: sort of pointless because as soon as you go in
Speaker 1: it would close, or yeah, exactly as soon as you
Speaker 1: go in then it would collapse. So like totally might
Speaker 1: make it through, but then it'll collapse, and then you
Speaker 1: don't have any that's right, And then we haven't even
Speaker 1: talked about like the dangers of approaching anything that looks
Speaker 1: like a black hole. I mean, the gravitational forces are tremendous.
Speaker 1: You get anywhere close to a black hole, you're not
Speaker 1: going to get into it. You're gonna get shredded by
Speaker 1: the title forces before you get very close. So there's
Speaker 1: a lot of practical problems with using a wormhole, but
Speaker 1: so weird wire wormholes one directional. That's one thing I
Speaker 1: didn't quite yet. How does the universe decide which ways
Speaker 1: in and which ways out? Well, um, that's a good question.
Speaker 1: I don't know. We don't know how to make them,
Speaker 1: so we don't know what process determines their directionality. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a good question. But the but the physics say
Speaker 1: the mass says that they are one direction. That's right,
Speaker 1: And so let me add an important qualifier. We've been
Speaker 1: saying this whole time that they are theoretically possible. That's
Speaker 1: true according to general relativity. General relativity, as far as
Speaker 1: we note, is true. But we also know that general
Speaker 1: relativity is not quantum mechanical, right, that it cannot describe
Speaker 1: microscopic things very well, things where the quantum description of
Speaker 1: the universe takes over, where particles have fixed amounts of
Speaker 1: energy and are divided up into concrete chunks. Right, general
Speaker 1: relativity thinks of the universe is continuous and infinitely divisible,
Speaker 1: but we know it's not that. Most of the time,
Speaker 1: that's not a big deal because we're dealing with macroscopic objects.
Speaker 1: But when you're talking about the inside of black holes
Speaker 1: or the inside of wormholes, we're pretty sure that quantum
Speaker 1: effects are going to be important, which means that if
Speaker 1: you're gonna go inside a wormhole, you shouldn't just check
Speaker 1: with general relativity. You need to check with quantum gravity,
Speaker 1: which is the theory we don't even have. So I
Speaker 1: would be very wary of going inside a wormhole, even
Speaker 1: if you found one, even if you stabilized it, because
Speaker 1: we don't really know what the rules are of quantum gravity, right,
Speaker 1: and the hardest part seems to be to stand quantum physics.
Speaker 1: It's pretty tricky. Yeah, you gotta be pretty smart to
Speaker 1: understand quantum physics, I'll admit. Okay, So to answer the question,
Speaker 1: can we use a wormhole to get to another star galaxy?
Speaker 1: The answer is maybe, probably not theoretically possible, but it
Speaker 1: seems practically impossible. I would be super impressed with the
Speaker 1: next generation of engineers if we managed to build useful
Speaker 1: wormholes in the next hundred years or so, I would
Speaker 1: be very, very deeply impressed. Good job, guys, I think
Speaker 1: you'd probably be dead. They'll probably send me as an
Speaker 1: experimental subject through the first wormhole just to prove them wrong. Um. Yes,
Speaker 1: so I would say. The takeaway is wormholes theoretically possible
Speaker 1: but never been seen, and also very impractical. Right. But
Speaker 1: let's carry the fantasy a little bit longer here, because
Speaker 1: I heard I read that they wormholes might not just
Speaker 1: connect space, but they could also connect space and time.
Speaker 1: That's right, Space is part of this constructor called space
Speaker 1: time right where time is sort of the fourth dimension.
Speaker 1: And um, people have crazy ideas with what you could
Speaker 1: do with wormholes if you found them. If you take
Speaker 1: one end of the wormhole and you accelerated to really
Speaker 1: really high speeds, then you can take advantage of time dilation. Right,
Speaker 1: that's moving clocks run more slowly. Um. But if you're connected,
Speaker 1: if you have a stationary point connected to the fast
Speaker 1: moving point, that you can play all sorts of tricks
Speaker 1: with special relativity and maybe even go back in time.
Speaker 1: But Stephen Hawking says that's impossible. He says that if
Speaker 1: you send anything through the wormhole that the wormhole will collapse.
Speaker 1: And so they called this the chronological protection conjecture, with
Speaker 1: the universes like conspired to make the laws of physics
Speaker 1: impossible to do time travel. And I said, I took
Speaker 1: a stand on our time travel episode. I said time
Speaker 1: travel is impossible, and I stick by that because I
Speaker 1: think that this concept of using wormholes and trail back
Speaker 1: in time is absurd, not just impractical, but absurd and illogical. Okay,
Speaker 1: so sorry to rain on your parade, to to to
Speaker 1: prick your fantasy there, Jorge, let me throughout my idea
Speaker 1: for a sci fi novel right here. I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna crush that out and put it in
Speaker 1: the trash here. No, no, science fiction is totally allowed, totally.
Speaker 1: You let in your universe. You can make up whatever
Speaker 1: rules you want as long as you follow them, so
Speaker 1: we can have that in your science fiction universe, no problem.
Speaker 1: All right, I guess until then we have to sit
Speaker 1: in traffic until the engineers figure out the wormhole. That's right,
Speaker 1: And so we hope you enjoyed this episode of Daniel
Speaker 1: and Jorge and um explain the universe and Daniel moorehe
Speaker 1: shoot down your sci fi idea. That's right, and try
Speaker 1: send me your sci fi idea through the wormhole of
Speaker 1: the internet, and I'll tell you why it's wrong, but
Speaker 1: in a very cheerful tone. That's right. Warm your way
Speaker 1: into Daniel's inbox. All right. Thanks to everyone, have a
Speaker 1: good one, see you next time. If you still have
Speaker 1: a question after listening to all these explanations, please drop
Speaker 1: us a line. We'd love to hear from you. You
Speaker 1: can find us at Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Daniel
Speaker 1: and Jorge as one Word, or email us at Feedback
Speaker 1: at Daniel and Jorge dot com,