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Speaker 1: M hm okay, Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast,

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Speaker 1: a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all

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Speaker 1: the small decisions we can make to become the best

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Speaker 1: possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr joy hard

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Speaker 1: and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more

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Speaker 1: information or to find a therapist in your area, visit

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Speaker 1: our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While

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Speaker 1: I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast,

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Speaker 1: it is not meant to be a substitute for a

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Speaker 1: relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for joining me for session two oh nine

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Speaker 1: of the Therapy for a Black Girls Podcast. We'll jump

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Speaker 1: into the episode right after a word from our sponsors.

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Speaker 1: You may know Michelle Williams as one third of the

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Speaker 1: superstar group Destiny Shall, but this week she's embarking on

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Speaker 1: a ran new identity as an author with her brand

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Speaker 1: new book Checking In. In the past couple of years,

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Speaker 1: Michelle has been more open and sharing about the mental

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Speaker 1: health concern she's experienced, and she's now using her platform

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Speaker 1: to help others to have these conversations to check in

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Speaker 1: with themselves. And others. Michelle and I chatted about the

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Speaker 1: various parts of her identity she's had to navigate throughout

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Speaker 1: her life, the experience of managing depression while being in

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Speaker 1: the spotlight, and keeping some things for yourself as a

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Speaker 1: public figure. If there's anything that resonates with you while

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Speaker 1: enjoying our conversation, please be sure to share it with

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Speaker 1: us on social media using the hashtag tv G in Session.

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Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Michelle. Oh,

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Speaker 1: thank you all so much for having me. Like I

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Speaker 1: said before, I'm a huge fan and supporter of therapy

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Speaker 1: for Black Girls. I think it's brilliant and it's so needed.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. I appreciate that. So I'm very excited your

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Speaker 1: book is out. Yes, May is the release date? Perfect

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Speaker 1: Perfect And so it's called checking In, And I would

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Speaker 1: love for you to just start by telling us what

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Speaker 1: you mean by checking in. Well, it definitely was a

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Speaker 1: play on words as well, you know, from the time

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Speaker 1: in twenty eight team where I actually had to check

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Speaker 1: into a mental health facility. But I learned so much

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Speaker 1: from that time going on three years later, and I

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Speaker 1: added those three pillars to my book, Checking In with yourself,

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Speaker 1: checking in with others, checking in with God, no particular orders,

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Speaker 1: whatever way you want to do it. But I found

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Speaker 1: that to be very restorative for me. M mmmm. And

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Speaker 1: that's also the name of your podcast, Yes it is. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it is just to normalize people being able to process

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Speaker 1: their pain and their trauma, their transitions, even their triumphs

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Speaker 1: that it should really really help one's mental health. Mm hmmm. So, Michelle,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think a part of our difficulty or

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Speaker 1: hesitation in checking in with others is that we are

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Speaker 1: not always prepared for what they might say. And I'm

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Speaker 1: wondering if you have any suggestions for how we might

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Speaker 1: check in with other people and be prepared for the answers. Oh. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: there's a few things. If I am going to check

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Speaker 1: in with somebody to tell them how I'm feeling, I

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Speaker 1: start off by saying, Hey, how are you doing? Hey,

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Speaker 1: do you have the emotional capacity to kind of listen

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Speaker 1: to what I'm gonna say, because this is just gonna

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Speaker 1: be go beyond hey girl, how you doing? And if

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Speaker 1: they say, oh, girl, yes, of course, then you know

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Speaker 1: we go on to have the discussion. Now, if somebody

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Speaker 1: calls me and say, hey, you know I need to

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Speaker 1: talk to you about something. I'm all ears unless I'm

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Speaker 1: like literally like not in a place to talk, but

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Speaker 1: you make it a safe place. You'd be a safe

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Speaker 1: person for them. Listen, don't come off with solutions, because

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Speaker 1: I'm a solution based person. The minute you tell me

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Speaker 1: a problem, I'm gonna go to googling or I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: go to things off the top of my head that

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Speaker 1: have helped me. But sometimes some people just want you

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Speaker 1: to listen and then just empathize with them and say, gosh,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry you are going through that. Is there anything

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Speaker 1: that I can do? How can I best serve you

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Speaker 1: right now? Yeah? I really like that, especially around asking

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Speaker 1: about people's being with right because we aren't always in

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Speaker 1: the place to be able to you know, even if

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Speaker 1: we want to help or have good intentions, sometimes we're

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Speaker 1: just not in a place to be able to do

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Speaker 1: that for one another. Yeah, And you might not notice,

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Speaker 1: say hey, do you have the emotional capacity? But like

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Speaker 1: my best friend, she's married and she's got two kids

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Speaker 1: of her own, she's running two dental practices, So I

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Speaker 1: always make sure, like how's your day, you know, do

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Speaker 1: you have a moment, are you in a place to

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Speaker 1: to talk and she says, oh, girl, yes, So she says, girl,

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Speaker 1: I gotta call you back. Then I take it into

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Speaker 1: that and be like okay, and we always end up connecting. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So early in your memoir you talked about how you

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Speaker 1: changed your name so that it was more palfortable and

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Speaker 1: more marketable for yourself. Can you share a little bit

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Speaker 1: about what that felt like in the moment and how

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Speaker 1: you maybe understand that decision to me? So at that time,

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Speaker 1: I am fresh in the group Destiny's Child, and that

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Speaker 1: question was asked, let's consider you going by the name Michelle.

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Speaker 1: It will be more marketable. And I really go into

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Speaker 1: more detail in the book. I actually tell people the

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Speaker 1: actual verbiage that was used. I can't give it away.

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Speaker 1: You gotta check out the book for the check out

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Speaker 1: the book checking in to get the full story. But

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Speaker 1: I was like, wow, okay, but I will say this,

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Speaker 1: you know, like, did I want to really like not

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Speaker 1: being the group because of that request? You know, when

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Speaker 1: you think of so many people in the entertainment world

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Speaker 1: to go by other names now, for whatever their reasons are,

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Speaker 1: I don't know why, say Chili is Roseann is her

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Speaker 1: real name is Rosanda, you know Sonny Hostin's. You know,

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Speaker 1: we find found out that Sunny is a derivative of

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Speaker 1: like her actual full name, and I'm like, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: Michelle it is now. It wasn't too bad because it's

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Speaker 1: my middle name. So it's not like they just opened

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Speaker 1: up a book of names and say, would you go

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Speaker 1: by this name. It was a part of me, and

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Speaker 1: so I think that's a part of me that made

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Speaker 1: me feel better. But it did not make my mom

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Speaker 1: happy at all. I named you. It's like, yes, ma'am,

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Speaker 1: you did, you did. But I think the initial reason

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Speaker 1: why I won't lie it did sting. Yeah, And I

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Speaker 1: would imagine, you know, maybe at this stage of your career,

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Speaker 1: you might make a very different decision about that. Absolutely

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Speaker 1: when Kamala Harris is our president a vice president, you

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Speaker 1: know what, I've been saying that an interview and no

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Speaker 1: one has corrected me. Well, Harney, we don't know in

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Speaker 1: four years. I'm a baby. I'm just speaking that she is,

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Speaker 1: you know. And then my mayor is Keisha Bottom. You know,

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Speaker 1: I live in Atlanta and it's amazing, and so I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I probably would go by Tannitra You've got Beyonce, Calendria

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Speaker 1: and Tanitra. So I don't know if at that time

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Speaker 1: would people have been able to pronounce these names. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, But like I said, the initial ask did sting? Yes?

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, I would imagine. And do you feel

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Speaker 1: like there are any lessons from that or other experiences

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Speaker 1: in your life that you've learned in terms of like

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Speaker 1: advocating for yourself. Oh? Absolutely. If a person makes you

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Speaker 1: feel like you can't ask them questions to a request

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Speaker 1: that they have of you, are just it's not that

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Speaker 1: you're questioning people, it's just you want to get down

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Speaker 1: to the nitty gritty of the ask and so. But

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Speaker 1: black women, some of us don't ask questions because like

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Speaker 1: I've been called combative, I've been called aggressive, and it's

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Speaker 1: like I was just asking a question, you know, and

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Speaker 1: this could be a further conversation, you know, at the

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Speaker 1: times where I've had to be a little more high

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Speaker 1: pitched in my tone to to make sure that a

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Speaker 1: person receives me well if I ask a question or

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Speaker 1: my point of view differs from them. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of us are very sensitive to

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Speaker 1: those terms being thrown around us, right, you know, because

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Speaker 1: that is how people want to see black women right

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Speaker 1: as aggressive and you know, we are just asking questions

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Speaker 1: or it's like I'm assertive, right, you know, why can't

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Speaker 1: other races, Like a white woman can say what she

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Speaker 1: needs and wants and people are like, wow, she's so

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Speaker 1: assertive and she just knows what she wants. But in

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Speaker 1: my experiences as a black woman, it's always been you're

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Speaker 1: being combative, you're being aggressive, and it's almost just take

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Speaker 1: what you can get. And I wonder, Michelle, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know for me, it feels like later in life,

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Speaker 1: like I definitely feel like I have always been a

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Speaker 1: little bit more outspoken and if I see something going on,

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about it. But I definitely feel

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Speaker 1: like there are parts of my younger life where I

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Speaker 1: wasn't as outspoken as I am now. I'm wondering if

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Speaker 1: you can share, like what that evolution has been for you,

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Speaker 1: Like how have you reframed this idea around being assertive

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Speaker 1: and combative in your absolutely? And it takes wisdom and

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Speaker 1: getting the tools and how to say what I need

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Speaker 1: to say and not feel bad for it. And it's

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Speaker 1: almost like writing that email, writing that text and putting

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Speaker 1: your phone down to walk away, you know, until you

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Speaker 1: can train yourself. And then I think at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, people will know your heart and your intention.

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Speaker 1: Some act like they don't. But the majority of the

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Speaker 1: people that I have in my life where I have

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Speaker 1: to come in business with, within three minutes, I can

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Speaker 1: sense who you are. I don't judge you, but I

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Speaker 1: assess and I use wisdom in every way in every conversation.

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Speaker 1: That kind of sounds like, you know, being very mindful

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Speaker 1: about who's in your circle and who you really allowed

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Speaker 1: close to you. Oh. Absolutely, And then there are going

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Speaker 1: to be some people that you deal with just on

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Speaker 1: a day to day basis. I can imagine, you know,

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Speaker 1: on your podcast, or the people you have to deal

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Speaker 1: with on the business end of it, you know, just

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Speaker 1: being confident and try to be as concise as possible

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Speaker 1: in your needs. So in the book, Michelle, you are

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Speaker 1: very candid in talking about like your depressive episodes and

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Speaker 1: your experiences with depression. And I would imagine, given what

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Speaker 1: kind of is common around you know, people's stories around depression,

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Speaker 1: there's these ideas that, oh, you have so much going

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Speaker 1: for you, why would you be depressed? Right? Can you

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Speaker 1: share a little bit with us about like what it

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Speaker 1: was like to experience depression while also having some pretty

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Speaker 1: major winds in your life. Oh. Absolutely, I tell this

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Speaker 1: to everybody. You know, when people make that statement, it's like,

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Speaker 1: you know what I was dealing with depression before Destiny's Child.

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Speaker 1: The music industry did not make me depress. Destiny's Child

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Speaker 1: did not make me depressed. This was something that I've

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Speaker 1: been dealing with since whatever the ages, when you're in

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Speaker 1: the seventh grade, that's when I kind of was like,

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Speaker 1: I don't feel the way I think I should be feeling.

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Speaker 1: And I got a diagnosis in my thirties. So for me,

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Speaker 1: I don't know where I would be if it wasn't

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Speaker 1: for that time period of me being in music. It

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Speaker 1: was an escape. It was medicine. The Lord blessed me

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Speaker 1: with two solid friendships and women that I'd never had.

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Speaker 1: So I'll first start off by saying that, but depression

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Speaker 1: hits you no matter what race you are, and almost

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Speaker 1: no matter what age you are, no matter what socio

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Speaker 1: economic background you reside in, honey, and it does not

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Speaker 1: have a look. That is why people who die by suicide.

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Speaker 1: There are so many people that say wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: we were just texting yesterday, we just went out for

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Speaker 1: happy hour. It does not have a look unless you

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Speaker 1: got that true spirit of discernment, like an old church

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Speaker 1: mother that can see beyond. And I think that's what

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Speaker 1: I try to do with people. I'm like, Lord, help

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Speaker 1: me see beyond their smile if there is anything to see. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And can you talk about some of the ways maybe

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Speaker 1: you mask that. Oh? Absolutely, I'm a pretty outgoing person,

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Speaker 1: but at the same time, I like to be indoors.

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Speaker 1: I think masking it by making sure everybody else is

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Speaker 1: okay because it would make me feel better knowing that

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Speaker 1: you know, Oh, I know what it is. I could

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Speaker 1: have said this in two minutes. Wanting to be needed,

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Speaker 1: you know, yeah, wanting to be needed. M we can

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Speaker 1: just unpack that, you know. And can you say more about,

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Speaker 1: like what the depression looks like for you, because we

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Speaker 1: know that depression symptoms look different for everybody. Oh, isolation,

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Speaker 1: a lot of sleep, no appetite, losing interest in things

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Speaker 1: that you know normally would make me feel good. I

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Speaker 1: remember on the seventh grade it was those symptoms. My

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Speaker 1: grades were dropping. If it wasn't for a mentor that

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Speaker 1: I had I probably would have had to repeat the

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Speaker 1: seventh grade. They didn't know everything that was going on,

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Speaker 1: you know, because I grew up in a faith based family.

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Speaker 1: My entire family is also known for ministry as well

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Speaker 1: as medicine, but we're known for ministry. My mother's brother,

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Speaker 1: you know, it was our pastor. Then he was consecrated

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Speaker 1: as a bishop, probably fifteen or somebody years ago, and

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Speaker 1: so you kind of had to put that smile on

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Speaker 1: because people just know your family as this strong family.

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Speaker 1: Or I get pulled on to sing. We know you

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Speaker 1: can sing, we know what church you go to, Get

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Speaker 1: on up here ands sing, and you didn't want to

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Speaker 1: let the family name down. We were just known as

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Speaker 1: this strong family of ministry. Can you think about, like,

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Speaker 1: did your symptoms look the same in seventh grade as

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Speaker 1: they did in like adulthood, or did those symptoms change

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Speaker 1: in nature? I think they were pretty much the aim,

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Speaker 1: the isolation, the fatigue, not wanting to follow through with commitments,

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Speaker 1: and I think as an adult you must follow through

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Speaker 1: on your word. There are so many artists and public

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Speaker 1: figures who are saying the same thing. Let me just

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Speaker 1: get through this speech, we just get through this play,

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Speaker 1: Let me get through the fourth quarter. We just play

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Speaker 1: hurt literally. Mm hmmm. Yeah. You know in the book

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Speaker 1: you also talked about feeling like rage was one of

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Speaker 1: your symptoms, which is not something we often connect to depression,

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Speaker 1: but for a lot of people, and I think black

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Speaker 1: women specifically, like that irritability is sometimes a symptom of

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Speaker 1: depression that we miss. Can you say more about that? Well, yes, now,

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Speaker 1: now that's a symptom that I did not have as

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Speaker 1: a child, was rage. I was not an angry child

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Speaker 1: at all, and I'm not an angry woman. It's just

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, depression and anxiety they are responses, right,

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Speaker 1: It's for me, they were a response is and the

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Speaker 1: irritability was just one of the symptoms. And it's like, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: how do I know that it's not hormonal? And ladies,

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Speaker 1: that's a good thing to talk about. Two is, certain

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Speaker 1: women you could have PMDD are hormones. As far as

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Speaker 1: for women are concerned, they just parallels so much with

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Speaker 1: symptoms of depression as well. I remember, you know, being

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Speaker 1: on birth control for a number of years, you know,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes I just look back and like, hey, did

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Speaker 1: that make it worse? I know it added an extra

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Speaker 1: chin hair that I always gotta plug those symptoms comparallel.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's how it can go undiagnosed or misdiagnosed.

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Speaker 1: So you almost gotta go back to even Okay, what

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Speaker 1: was going on pre puberty? Were you abused verbally physically?

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Speaker 1: Because I didn't know how to cope. I had to

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Speaker 1: suppress it all. You know, it's like you're a church girl,

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Speaker 1: you know, Jesus, you can't be sad. Everything is working

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Speaker 1: out for you. More from my conversation with Michelle right

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Speaker 1: after the break, can you share more about like what

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Speaker 1: maybe navigating these conversations around mental health have been like

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Speaker 1: in a family that is so strong faith wise, Like

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Speaker 1: was the something that was understood or was there some

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Speaker 1: pushback around like oh, you just need to pray harder.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Anita Phillips is so amazing. She's as psychologist, but

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Speaker 1: she's also a minister. And I've taken this quote from

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Speaker 1: her and I've used it since prayer is a weapon.

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Speaker 1: Therapy is a strategy, and those are for people who

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Speaker 1: possibly are wandering. Should I be a believer and go

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Speaker 1: to therapy? Like absolutely, you're a believer and you go

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Speaker 1: get your man programs you're a believer and you go

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Speaker 1: get your pap smears. You're a believer and you go

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Speaker 1: to the doctor if you've had a cough that's turned

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Speaker 1: into stres throat. So go ahead and do the same thing.

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Speaker 1: Whatever your faith is or even cultures if you are African, Asian, Indian,

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Speaker 1: you just kind of suck it up. Is taboo and

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Speaker 1: a lot of cultures. Yeah, absolutely, which is why I

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Speaker 1: think the book is so important, right. I think it

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Speaker 1: just goes a long way in terms of normalizing having

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Speaker 1: these conversations, absolutely normalizing the conversations, also normalizing and letting

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Speaker 1: a person feel like they can say I'm not okay,

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Speaker 1: and I don't think you should be telling everybody, but

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Speaker 1: just gosh, can we just normalize to where you have

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Speaker 1: a person everybody needs their person, and hopefully that person

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Speaker 1: too is a licensed, you know, clinical worker, because there

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Speaker 1: are sometimes too where I don't want to feel like

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Speaker 1: I'm dumping on people, so and I'm like, well, therapist,

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Speaker 1: this is what they get paid to do, is to

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Speaker 1: hear you talk. But it's their job to even help

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Speaker 1: you go to a step further by peeling back the layers,

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Speaker 1: getting to the root of things. Some want to help

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Speaker 1: you with solutions and treatment organically, and sometimes you know,

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Speaker 1: medicine us involved. M I want to go back to

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Speaker 1: something you said previously about the old church mother. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: seeing beyond what's going on with someone, can you see

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Speaker 1: a little bit more about what that might look like.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've had some severe depression. I can almost

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Speaker 1: smell it on a person, I can almost see it.

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Speaker 1: And there are certain questions I can ask a person

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Speaker 1: and before you know what, they're opening up to me.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, I'm so glad you asked because I

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Speaker 1: can sense that it's something you're going through. May I

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Speaker 1: help you provide a resource that you know can help

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Speaker 1: you find the therapist because I'm not licensed, But I

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Speaker 1: do want to see people walking in wholeness and healing.

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Speaker 1: I do want to see people being able to process

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Speaker 1: their trauma and pain because a lot of what people

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Speaker 1: are going through was inflicted at the hands of somebody else,

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Speaker 1: and there's a small percentage of our pain or it's

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Speaker 1: been done in our own hands. Right. You know, maybe

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Speaker 1: we stayed in a relationship a little too long, we

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Speaker 1: tolerated some abuse, we didn't get out when we should happen.

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Speaker 1: That took a toll on your mental health. But I'm

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Speaker 1: getting better at being in a place where I want

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Speaker 1: to know beyond the sparkles, how are you really doing mmm?

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Speaker 1: And that might mean actually checking in with people when

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Speaker 1: you know you have to day in with to go deep.

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Speaker 1: If they should share something that's said space, that's so good,

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Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah, yeah, So can you share a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about your thoughts about how we can communicate

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Speaker 1: our triggers to our partners and family and friends and

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Speaker 1: other people in our lives. Absolutely communicating our triggers, that's

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Speaker 1: that's another thing, because you know you might be afraid

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Speaker 1: to tell that, especially if it's a romantic relationship, out

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Speaker 1: of fear of losing the relationship. That's what happened to me.

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Speaker 1: I speak about my engagement ending and how like, man,

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Speaker 1: I'm a truthful person, but that one percent I should

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Speaker 1: have said something. So it's like nine times i'd oftend

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Speaker 1: you're a partner. They want to know what's going on

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Speaker 1: with you, at least minded. So I think it is

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Speaker 1: very important to vocalize a trigger and say this is

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Speaker 1: something I want to work on. But when you raise

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Speaker 1: your voice, even if it's just out of passion, because

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Speaker 1: you're watching a basketball game. It brings me back to

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Speaker 1: hearing my parents yell. I'm not saying don't yell, you

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Speaker 1: know when Lebron makes that shot or Steph Curry makes

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Speaker 1: that shot, or when we're talking, don't raise your voice

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Speaker 1: at me, period. You know, let's work on keeping the

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Speaker 1: levels down now. I have to work on that, y'all,

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Speaker 1: because I'm a passionate person, so my voice elevates the

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Speaker 1: more passionate I get. But it's not because I'm yelling

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Speaker 1: my voice out of anger and aggression or to overpower

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Speaker 1: you and to intimidate you. But that could really trigger

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Speaker 1: somebody else. Yeah, and I really think that those are

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Speaker 1: the kinds of conversations that can really bring you closer

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Speaker 1: in a relationship, even though I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people are afraid of it. But it is really being

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Speaker 1: vulnerable with this person, you know what. That's the thing.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, transparency is telling a person what

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Speaker 1: you've gone through. Vulnerability is being able to tell how

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Speaker 1: you feel, like, yes, I've gone through depression or a breakup. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm very transparent, but I've learned how to be vulnerable, Like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: let me tell you how I really felt when I

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Speaker 1: went through it, I didn't feel you know, there's a

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Speaker 1: difference between being transparent and vulnerable, right, because a lot

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Speaker 1: of us will come up with like a public story

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Speaker 1: of how to share something girl, Yes, especially something that

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Speaker 1: you know you're gonna have to repeat over and over,

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Speaker 1: like you get very rehearsed and sharing the details that

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Speaker 1: make people feel like they know enough but not too much. Absolutely, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: you know, but that could be a defense mechanism. Oh yes,

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Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, So you already talked about, you know,

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Speaker 1: like a major life transition just in terms of your

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Speaker 1: engagement ending, but you've also had other major transitions, like

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Speaker 1: you know, the end of destiny shall right, like the

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Speaker 1: group deciding that it wasn't gonna be like performing and

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Speaker 1: stuff anymore. Can you talk about what you have learned

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Speaker 1: from these transitions about like redirection and conquering change? Oh? Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: you know you want things to go on and on

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Speaker 1: and on and on and on forever, but be ready

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Speaker 1: for that transition. Prepare yourself. It's kind of like you

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Speaker 1: know that athlete that you're good if you can go

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Speaker 1: beyond three years in the NFL, right, And so people

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Speaker 1: aren't ready for those transitions. Same thing in the music industry,

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00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 1: but lately there have been more tools for a person

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Speaker 1: to have a little more longevity in music, sports, and entertainment.

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Speaker 1: When I think of twenty one years later, the work

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Speaker 1: that I'm doing still feels like the first day. So

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Speaker 1: that's a blessing to have some relevance and to still

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Speaker 1: be working in a field that I love and now

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Speaker 1: adding more purpose in another area that I'm really really

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Speaker 1: passionate about. But yes, if I'm don want to be

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Speaker 1: vulnerable at the ending of Destiny shouting, it's saddened me,

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, because I felt like I was kind

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Speaker 1: of just getting my stride and feeling like I'm an

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Speaker 1: actual member now, you know. M m m mmm. Can

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Speaker 1: you talk about like how that might have been processed

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Speaker 1: with the group, like where their conversations around the ending?

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Speaker 1: Not really, No, not really, because I would have said, Yo,

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Speaker 1: what are we doing? What are were you talking about

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Speaker 1: the end? You know, I think that's a part of

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Speaker 1: why I know I took it so hard because I

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Speaker 1: didn't want it to end, And it's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: you should have told me a year in advance, you

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Speaker 1: need a little more time. In addition to working together

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Speaker 1: you also have very strong friendships with your two other

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Speaker 1: band maids, and so how did that impact, Like the

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Speaker 1: end of the working relationship impact the friendship. The friendship moved,

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Speaker 1: it kept going and you know, we are very close.

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Speaker 1: But it didn't take me long to process because I

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Speaker 1: was like, Okay, well you were here for a short

426
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 1: amount of time. The girls have been doing this since

427
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 1: they were eleven and twelve, so yes, it is time

428
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 1: to transition. It is time to move on. And we've

429
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: kept that promise of coming together every few years and

430
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 1: that's been a joy. But the real joy is the

431
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: relationship that we have. I mean, you know, Kelly talked

432
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 1: about how she gave us the zoom link when she

433
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 1: gave birth. I mean, you can't get no better and

434
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: no closer and more intimate than that. It's pretty intimate,

435
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: very intimate, and very special. The reason why there's still

436
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 1: access that we have to each other's lives, I think

437
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: is the respect and the ability has grown women. You know,

438
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 1: we haven't had to have many conversations feeling wrong by

439
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: the other. Matter of fact, we've never had an argument ever. Yeah,

440
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot to be said from that, yes, ma'am.

441
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: More from Michelle right after the break. So, what have

442
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: you learned about yourself about how you prepare for major

443
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: life transitions? Now? So you said you're somebody who typically

444
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 1: needs a little bit more of a runway. You'd like

445
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: to know when things are changing and sometimes life before

446
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: us standing, sometimes not so sometimes. What have you learned

447
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: about yourself and transitions? Now? Just accepting that transitions happened.

448
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: My father passed away in December of last year, and

449
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 1: it's like, well, now, he was sick for a number

450
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 1: of years, so and his transition was so peace fault

451
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: and how I was able to process that? And then

452
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 1: there are things that kind of blindside you and I

453
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 1: kind of deal with them in the same way, you know,

454
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: because I refused to go into a downward spiral. I

455
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 1: have the tools on how to respond. And what are

456
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: some of those tools for you? Some of those tools are,

457
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:20,719
Speaker 1: you know, stepping back from a situation, breathing, praying, you know, texting,

458
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 1: you know, my therapist. Because so much healing has taken place,

459
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: I don't want to do anything that defiles it. Am

460
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: I human? Am I gonna make a mistake along the way?

461
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: Absolutely does anxiety still come? Absolutely? I mean I'm in

462
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 1: my book release s week and I'm anxious. I'm like,

463
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,199
Speaker 1: is it gonna do good? Our people are gonna like it?

464
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: How well will it be received? And blah blah blah,

465
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: all these questions. You know that our legitimate questions. But

466
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 1: I don't let myself ruminate on things anymore like I

467
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 1: used to. Mm hmmm. That feels important the U because

468
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 1: we can really get stuck there and like you on

469
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: that cycle, honey, yeah, no, don't do that to yourself.

470
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: You know, get somebody to process something with. But oh,

471
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: when I see somebody just over and over ruminating, meditating

472
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:17,640
Speaker 1: on something who it's it's heart, it's heartbreaking to see

473
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 1: because it really exhausts you. Yes. So, something that we

474
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: have talked a lot about today, you know, in our

475
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 1: conversation and that we talked a lot about on the

476
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: podcast is maintaining boundaries. And it feels like from the

477
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 1: very beginning, at least of your public life with us,

478
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 1: you really were kind of set on having some stuff

479
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: that was just for you and your family and some

480
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: stuff that like was shared with the public. Can you

481
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: talk about like how your boundaries have evolved and how

482
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: you kind of make decisions about what kinds of things

483
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: are shared publicly and what kinds of stuff stays within

484
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: your inner circle. Absolutely, I just believe in honor. You know.

485
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: There are even some things that share in my book

486
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 1: as it relates to my parents relationship and what I

487
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: witness growing up. You know, that's a part of my

488
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: mental health journey, but out of respect for them, they're

489
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: just certain things you're not gonna go into details about.

490
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: That would be my mother's story to tell. One day.

491
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: I really feel like my mother could, you know, really

492
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: help other caregivers. You know, her and my dad were

493
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: married forty six years with lots of ups and downs,

494
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: and I think she could really be helpful. But that's

495
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: her story to tell. As it relates to myself, I'm

496
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: very wise on the timing and seasons in which I

497
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: share certain aspects of my life because you can mean

498
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,479
Speaker 1: well and you got to be careful. I'm careful of,

499
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: you know, even the specifics of what I share details too,

500
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: you know, in my book, I share as much as

501
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: I possibly can, but out of honor for a lot

502
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: of my relationships, you know, because it's not a tell all.

503
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: By the way, I'm not a tell all type of person.

504
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: I'm okay with telling you about an issue or a problem.

505
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: You don't need all the details, but I give you

506
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: the details that matter and what affected me and how

507
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: I've been able to overcome and the healing journey that

508
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: I'm still currently on. And how do you feel like

509
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: you got to that place, Michelle, I think about you know,

510
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,239
Speaker 1: they're likely going to be lots of younger people who

511
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: are excited to pick up a copy of your book.

512
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: And it does be like in the social media era,

513
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: there is a tendency to want to share more. I'm

514
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: wondering if you can share how you've developed to a

515
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: place where you have this honor around what kinds of

516
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: things are important to share, what kinds of things are not?

517
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: You know, I think that comes from you know, the industry,

518
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 1: the time period in which we came up in. You know,

519
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: there are certain things just media training, like we were

520
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: just taught not to share it. It's about your music.

521
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: Every now and then you give a little personal tipic

522
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: because people want to feel like they know you. People

523
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: want to feel like they can relate to you, Like

524
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: I understand there are certain mysterious artists like Prince was

525
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: very mysterious, is right, and you still loved his music,

526
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: but some of his truth was also in his music.

527
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: But I do feel like you know now, we just

528
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: have to use wisdom in what we share. I'm not

529
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: telling you not to not share things. My mother thinks

530
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: that what I share is t M I. It's t

531
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: M I st and I know details that I've kept

532
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: to myself and that I will keep to myself because

533
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: if you want to keep access to me and verse

534
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,239
Speaker 1: versus I have access to you. It's about honor at

535
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: the end of the day. Unless I have permission, unless

536
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: you've given me permission to share a detail. Did you

537
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: have conversations with family and friends in preparation for writing

538
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: the book around like, okay, is it okay if I

539
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: say this or not? Or did you just kind of

540
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: go on your own like ideas about you know, what

541
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: kinds of things to keep sacred? Yeah, just kind of

542
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: my own ideas because I didn't want anybody to shape

543
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: my truths, and but I knew that I still will

544
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: be honorable and sharing my story because there are people

545
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: who might have hurt you and they didn't mean to,

546
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: but they don't deserve to be put on blast either,

547
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: especially when you've reconciled and the relationship is okay, and

548
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: vice versa. I've done some hurting and you know, but

549
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: you know, just as long as we're doing our part too,

550
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: forgive and say those words I'm sorry, I apologize. You know.

551
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: I make no excuses for my language towards you or

552
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: my behavior towards you. It is my responsibility of how

553
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: I respond to you. And i'm sorry and those words

554
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: my mother would tell me sometimes someone saying i'm sorry

555
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: can be just as powerful as the person getting on

556
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: one need to propose to you. And are you having

557
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: to have any of those conversations now, like as the

558
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: book is preparing to be out in the world, are

559
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: you feeling like you need to have any conversation with

560
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: people like hey, okay, just so you know this is

561
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: gonna be shared. There are parts in the book where

562
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: I say, out of respect for my relationship, I won't

563
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: say this. There's nothing in there that I think is disrespectful.

564
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: You know. There are some names that I didn't even use.

565
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: There are people still alive, there are people legacies to

566
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: still protect. And that's just who I am. That is

567
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: just who I am, you know, And nothing was done

568
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 1: to me that warrants, like an investigation or anything that's different.

569
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 1: You know, especially with my parents and as they say, hey,

570
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: you know, we were doing the best we knew how

571
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: to do. That's like a healing south from me, just

572
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: those words. Because our parents, they were going through their

573
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: own traumas individually, the traumas from their families, you know,

574
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: their siblings in their household. Then you're trying to raise

575
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: kids and all of that, and you know, there could

576
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: be a lot that's said or done. So you've already

577
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: talked about some of the feelings that you're having as

578
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 1: you approach release weak, can you say more about like

579
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: how you're taking care of yourself and how you've taken

580
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: care of yourself throughout the book writing process. Yes, man,

581
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: literally pacing myself, taking times, pockets of time to you know,

582
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: watch my favorite shows if possible. I know today through

583
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: Wednesday is impossible. And then I'm just prepared for it

584
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: to be a week of a lot of work. I'm

585
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: prepared to just be tired. And that's the reality. I

586
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 1: can't sugarcoat it. I'm gonna be tired. Yeah, yeah, but exactly. Yeah. So,

587
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 1: looking back on your life, I'm wondering if you have

588
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 1: some ideas about what advice you might give to your

589
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 1: younger self. Oh, definitely, pacing yourself, trusting the journey, trusting

590
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 1: process and time. Time is so important, and what you're

591
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: doing between the time and your transitions really is very important.

592
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:53,439
Speaker 1: Sometimes what you do while you're waiting is so important. Yeah,

593
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: I tell myself that trusting the weight. Yeah, those transitions

594
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 1: can be your very powerful time. And mmmm, well, I

595
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: am so excited that we've had a chance to chat

596
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: to day Michelle. Tell everybody where they can grab the

597
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: book and what they should be forward to. Thank you

598
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: so much. Like I said, it's been a joy to

599
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 1: talk to you. And you can go to checking in

600
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: book dot com. That's just an easy link in me

601
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: to tell you all the retailers of your choosing that

602
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: you can get my book checking in. And you are

603
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 1: having some incredible conversations with other people as a part

604
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: of your book tour. Do you want to share more

605
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: about that? I am, I have a book tour coming

606
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 1: out and some of my favorite conversations. You know, I've

607
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: got my friend neuroscientists Dr Caroline Leave, Terra G. P. Hinton,

608
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: La Cree, Miss Tina and LaToya Luckett dr Anita Phillips,

609
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: Darryl Walls, Let's see Divine, Franklin, Chan Lamore, and Tamar

610
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 1: Braxton Tabitha Brown Listen. These are amazing us in conversations

611
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 1: that I am delighted for you guys to be able

612
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: to see wonderful. We will be sure to share all

613
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: of those details in the show notes. Good luck with

614
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: your releasing. You're welcome so much, honey, Jesus beyond a massage.

615
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Michelle was able to share with us today.

616
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: To grab your copy of her new book checking in,

617
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for

618
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash Session two oh nine. Don't

619
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 1: forget that if you're looking for a therapist in your area,

620
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: be sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy

621
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you

622
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 1: want to continue digging into this topic or just be

623
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: in community with other sisters, come on over and join

624
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of

625
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 1: the Internet design just for black women. You can join

626
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 1: us at Commune any dot Therapy for Black Girls dot com.

627
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: Thank you all so much for joining me again this week.

628
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 1: I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all

629
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,439
Speaker 1: real soon. Take good care,