1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to Canadian Music Week. In the Bob 2 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: Left Sets the podcast. My guest today is Murk Peculiadest, 3 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: who runs the hottest company in music today, the Hypnosis 4 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: Songs Fun Mark. How's it going, Bob, It's a pleasure 5 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: to be with you, mate for a long time. Okay, 6 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: So you're constantly signing new acts, new catalogs. Do you 7 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: reach out to people or do they approach you? Um, 8 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: it's a combination of both. I would say that of 9 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: the deals that we make are you know, people that 10 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: who's music that I'm listening to, and when I'm listening 11 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 1: to that music, it makes me reach out and turn 12 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: around and tell people that, you know, I admire the 13 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: work that they're doing and that I would like them 14 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: to be a part of Hypnosis. But it's it's generally 15 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: a long courtship. I I generally build the relationship with someone. 16 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: In my case there you know, many of these relationships 17 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: are relationships that have been built over ten, twenty thirty 18 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: forty years at the time that I've been in this business. 19 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: So you know, it's it's it's there's a bit of 20 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: a love affair that's been going on for a long 21 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: period of time generally before I approach anybody. But then, 22 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: of course, on the back of success, you have a 23 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: lot of people that pick up the telephone and want 24 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: to be a part of what you're doing as well. Okay, 25 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: let's talk about a couple of specific cases. You recently 26 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: signed the Red Hot Chili Peppers. How did that come 27 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: together so that when I can't talk about Bob and 28 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: I apologize for that, But that's a deal that uh 29 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: under n d A and that is is a deal 30 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: that is is not something that we can talk about publicly, 31 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: and I apologize. I should have said that at the 32 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: very beginning. Okay, is there a deal that would be 33 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: representative that you can talk about relatively recent? Sure, we 34 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: can talk about Neil Young, we can talk about Lindsay Buckingham, 35 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: we can talk about and let's talk about Shakira. Okay, 36 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: let's start with Neil Young. How did you what was 37 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: the entreaty with Neil Young? Did you reach out to 38 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: him or do you reach out to you? Well, you know, 39 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: I've had a relationship with Neil for about twenty five years, 40 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: maybe longer. Um I was very close with his manager, 41 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: Elliott Roberts, sadly who's no longer with us anymore. And 42 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 1: Elliott was a bit of a mentor to me. We were, 43 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: you know, we had a very similar approach to the 44 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: way we did things, always integrity, lead um and Frank Geronda, 45 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: who was Elliott's lieutenant for many many years and is 46 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: now Neil's manager, was also part of of of that 47 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: circle of of of friends around Neil, and it was 48 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: there therefore very easy. I mean. The funny thing about 49 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: the Neil deal was that when I first started to 50 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: see investors, uh four or five years ago to educate 51 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: them on the idea of songs as an asset class um, 52 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: and I would explain to them, you know, the way 53 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: that certain artists cared about music, and that it would 54 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: be you know, the kind of equivalent of uh, you know, 55 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: the songs being metaphorical children, uh, if you like. And 56 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: therefore these were very emotional transactions that uh the artists 57 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: would find uh, you know, difficult, and that they would 58 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: want to make sure that they were putting those songs 59 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: into the hands of the right people. I always used 60 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: Neil as the example. I had over a hundred and 61 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: seventy seven meetings with investors in the first twelve or 62 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: thirteen months of of of hypnosis as an idea, and 63 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: in every one of those meetings, Neil was always the 64 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: example of the sort of artists that would do business 65 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: with me as opposed to doing business with other people, 66 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: because they would know that I cared about the music. 67 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: They would know that I amderstood that these were emotional transactions, 68 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: and that they looked upon these songs as metaphorical children 69 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: that they've given birth to in the form of songs, 70 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: and that they would want to know that those songs 71 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: were going into the right hands. And you know, I've 72 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: made my reputation and my success with artists and songwriters 73 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: and producers as opposed to at the expense of artists 74 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: and songwriters and producers, and therefore I have a pretty 75 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 1: good name in the artistic community. They know that I care, 76 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: they know that I'm prepared to fight on behalf of 77 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: the songwriters and the artists and the producers. And they 78 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 1: also know that, you know, perhaps most importantly, that while 79 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 1: I'll always want to, you know, enhance the earnings and 80 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: enhance their reputation, at the same time, I would never 81 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: do that at the cost of protecting their legacy. The 82 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: legacy is always the most important thing. And protecting the 83 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: value of the songs and protecting how the songs are 84 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: used as paramount. That's that's inherent. You know, when you 85 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: look at someone like you young, you know, on the 86 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 1: one hand, the songs are as valuable as they are 87 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 1: because Neil is an incredible artist and a wonderful songwriter. 88 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: But equally well inherent in that is the way that 89 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: he's conducted himself over the past sixty years. The reason 90 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: why people like you and I look up to Neil 91 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 1: is because of that conduct. And I've read you write 92 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: about Neil. Uh, you know, read what you've written about 93 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: Neil many many times over the decades, and you have 94 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: a similar passion to mind most of the time. And 95 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: that's partly based on the fact that Neil is a 96 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: guy that we can believe in. Okay, but walk us 97 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 1: through the process of making a deal with Neil. Did 98 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: you hear that he wanted to sell or did you 99 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 1: approach Frank and tell him, Hey, I think this is 100 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: an opportunity for you here. It's a it's a courtship 101 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: that that has existed from the time that hypnosis started. 102 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: Um And of course you know sometimes the artist will 103 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: get to a place where they be it's the right 104 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: time for them to make a deal like this, and 105 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: other times it will never be the right time to 106 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 1: to to to make a deal. In Neil's case, UM 107 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 1: probably last October he decided that this was the right 108 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: time for him to make a deal and to uh, 109 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 1: you know, put the songs and let me just stop 110 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 1: you for a second. That was totally independent of you 111 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: talking to him. He basically woke up in bed one 112 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: day and said today's the day, okay, correct continually and 113 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: and and instructed his team that it was it was 114 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: time to find uh, you know, the right people to 115 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: do to make a deal with UM. So from that 116 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: point it became very easy. You know, the lawyer and 117 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 1: Frank reached out to me. I told them what I 118 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: was prepared to do, literally within a matter of seconds. 119 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: And ultimately, and you know, when you you have a 120 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: career like Nils and and and you know you've got 121 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 1: sixty years almost worth of incredible songs You've got obviously, uh, 122 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 1: you know understand what the how the marketplace feels about 123 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: your your catalog and your songs. But I was very 124 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: confident that what I proposed to them right from the 125 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: get go would prevail. And indeed it did, and the 126 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: deal was done within about thirty days. Okay, so you're 127 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: saying that within a matter of seconds you had a 128 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: number that you could give them. What it wasn't wasn't 129 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: even minutes, it was seconds. So how did you come 130 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: up with that number? Because you know, as you may know, 131 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:41,239 Speaker 1: you know, the sort of general discussion around catalog sales 132 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: is based on a multiple um. So for me to 133 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: be able to express the multiple that I was prepared 134 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: to pay for Neil just took a matter of seconds. 135 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: You know. By that point, I was already you know, 136 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: the better part of two billion dollars invested. I knew 137 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: what these catalogs were trading ends for. And you know, 138 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: the one thing that I'm never gonna do. And it 139 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: doesn't matter whether you're as famous as Neil Young or 140 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: you know, whether you're you're you're someone that you know, 141 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: maybe as a decade into your your career, your life, 142 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: I'm never gonna mess a great creator around. You know, 143 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: my my modus opper endi is too. And this has 144 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: been this way throughout my career. You know, if I 145 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: believe that I should pay a dollar I'm not going 146 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: to offer ninety cents and then let you talk me 147 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: up to a dollar. I'm going to offer a dollar, 148 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: and then if you want more, I'm gonna justify why 149 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: I believe it's a dollar. So it's it's you know. 150 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: My My approach is always to be as real as 151 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: I possibly can be, and then if there's effort and 152 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: time that's required to then explain and to justify why 153 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: that's the number, and then I'm prepared to do it. 154 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,319 Speaker 1: But I don't. I don't try to nickel and dine people. 155 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: I think that, you know, one of the things that 156 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: I set out to do when I started hypnosis, there 157 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: were three three goals. The first goal was to establish 158 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: songs as an asset class that could rival golden oil um. 159 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: The second was to use the leverage of hypnosis to 160 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: then help to change where the songwriter sits in the 161 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: economic equation, because despite the fact that they're delivering the 162 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: most important component to an artist having success, they are 163 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: the low man or woman on the in the economic equation. 164 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 1: And then the third goal was to destroy the concept 165 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: of traditional publishing, where someone gives you a check but 166 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: doesn't really add much value beyond that and to replace 167 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: it with song management. As as an artist manager, you know, 168 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: I manage people with responsibility because I understand that. You know, 169 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: first of all, I can't play the guitar, I can't 170 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: sing a song, I can't write a song. The only 171 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: thing that gives me a seat at the table with 172 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: these great people is that I take my responsibility seriously 173 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: and I think that that same responsibility should be extended 174 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: to these great songs that make the world go round. 175 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: But that's not what traditional publishing is. Let's get let's 176 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: get downe in the nuts and bolts. So if you 177 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 1: could make a deal or come up with a number 178 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 1: that quickly. Did they tell you how much they were 179 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: making from their catalog every year or is this something 180 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: where you investigate all the available acts yourself and see 181 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: how much they're making. So basically everything that we buy 182 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: is bought on verified data. So the artist will supply 183 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: the last three years of their publishing statements, the last 184 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: three years of their p r O statements, the last 185 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: three years of their you know, neighboring rights, sound exchange masters, 186 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 1: depending on what it is, that's that's that's on the 187 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: table um. But in the case of Neil, what I 188 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: gave immediately was the multiple that I was prepared to 189 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: pay for it. They then supplied me with that verified 190 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: aid to within a couple of days, they had the 191 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: formal offer back with that number, that yearly number times 192 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: the multiple that I was willing to pay, and we 193 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: were there very very quickly after that. What is the 194 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: multiple that I can't talk about I'm under n d A. 195 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: But but what I can, But in general, what I 196 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: can tell you is this is that I've now invested 197 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: over two billion dollars, about two point two billion dollars 198 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: at an average weighted multiple of fifteen. So I've I've 199 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: bought some catalogs for a lot more than a fifteen 200 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 1: times multiple, and I've bought some catalogs for a lot 201 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: less than a fifteen times multiple. But the average weighted 202 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: multiple across the two billion invested is fifteen times. Okay, 203 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: let's assume you pay fifteen times for your purposes. How 204 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: long a period of time do you calculate it will 205 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: take for you to recoup your investment. Well, it's probably 206 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,559 Speaker 1: something that's closer to ten years time rather than fifteen 207 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 1: years time, because, of course, the context for all of 208 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: this is the explosive growth of streaming where when we started, 209 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: you know, just over three years ago, we had thirty 210 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: million paid subscribers to music streaming services. Today we have 211 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: four dred and fifty million paid subscribers. Then in addition 212 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: to that growth, you know, you've got uh things like 213 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: legislation that's taken place all over the world, such as 214 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 1: the Copyright Board ruling in the United States that has 215 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: given the songwriter a forty four greater share of the 216 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: pie incrementally between two thousand and nineteen and the end 217 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: of two thousand and twenty two. Now that's been appealed 218 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: by Spotify and by Amazon, but not by Apple, and 219 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: we believe that that increase will prevail. So by the 220 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: time you get to the end of a dollar's worth 221 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: of income that you bought will be worth a dollar 222 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: forty four if it was predictable, reliable income. And then 223 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: we go to work actively managing the songs better than 224 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: they've been actively managed for a long time, because you know, 225 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 1: the big publishing houses that administer many of these songs 226 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 1: when we buy them, they have as many as twenty 227 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: thousand songs per person. So as good as they are 228 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: what they do, they don't have the ability to be 229 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: able to affect the success of twenty thousand songs per person. 230 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,839 Speaker 1: They just don't have the bandwidth to do it. We 231 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: operate on a basis of five hundred plus songs per 232 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 1: person UM, never more than a thousand songs per person. 233 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: We're adding all the time, so that ratio of between 234 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: five hundred and a thousand songs changes depending on where 235 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: we are between what we've acquired recently. So today we 236 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: have acquired a hundred songs from Andrew Watt um Grammy, 237 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: a winning Producer of the Year UM. But we're adding 238 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: more people to manage those songs and manage the songs 239 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: that are in the catalog on a glue basis, So 240 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: it fluctuates between having five hundred and a thousand songs 241 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: per person depending on where we are in that cycle. Ideally, 242 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: as we get to the point where there's a steady state, 243 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: it's five hundred songs per person as opposed to twenty 244 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: songs per person, and those people are very focused on 245 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: putting the songs in movies, TV commercials, video games, getting 246 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: new artists to cover those songs, getting new songwriters to 247 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: interpolate them, making sure that they're on TikTok, making sure 248 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: that they're on Peloton, that they're on the right playlists, etcetera. 249 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: So by the time you add all of those ratchets, 250 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: you know, what is a fifteen times multiple probably becomes 251 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: something less than a ten times multiple if you're doing 252 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: your job properly. Okay, let's just use Neil Young as 253 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: an example. So a lot of these older artists, Neil, Paul, Simon, 254 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: Dylan have sold in. The conventional wisdom is they're doing 255 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: it for tax reasons. In this particular case, you make 256 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: it deal with all of these very highly well known, 257 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: respected artists, is part of the negotiation where and how 258 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: they get paid for tax reasons. Well, certainly they will 259 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: have all had very very good independent tax planning. So 260 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: you know, you you you are probably aware that under 261 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: the Trump administration previously that at the mid terms last 262 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: time around, Trump tried to get rid of, uh the 263 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: the capital gains tax treatment for songwriters. Bart Harbison at 264 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: the n s a I and Nashville stepped in with 265 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: a very very heavy lobby and they were able to 266 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: turn that around and keep the capital gains tax in place. 267 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: We've now got what I think we all believe is 268 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: a far, far better president and Joe Biden. But Joe 269 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: Biden is also intent on, uh, you know, putting a 270 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: tax program in place that will likely get rid of 271 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: capital gains tax for songwriters. Whether that happens this year, 272 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,119 Speaker 1: whether it happens next year, it's certainly something on the agenda. 273 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: I've been part of many, many discussions with the n 274 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: s a I and various congress people around the country 275 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: explaining to them number one that songwriters deserve capital gains 276 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: treatment and number two that even if we just look 277 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: at hypnosis, hypnosis has probably paid about five dred to 278 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: six hundred million dollars into the treasury based on songwriters 279 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: getting capital gains treatment. If that capital gains treatment were 280 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: to go away, many many songwriters would have to think 281 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: twice about whether or not they sold their songs. Okay, 282 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: but specifically that would be the general leandscape. Do you 283 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: just make a deal and say I'll pay you X 284 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: for this, let's just use a hundred million dollars is 285 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: around number? Or do they say we want you know, like, 286 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: is it like a baseball player where they say, well, 287 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: I want to be paid in Canada or I want 288 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: to be paid. Here are those factors that Hypnosis is 289 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: involved in at all, Where the money is generated, from 290 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 1: where it goes. We're not involved in the factors because 291 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,439 Speaker 1: of course we're not advisors to the artist or the 292 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: songwriter or the producer. But if the songwriter or the 293 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: artist or the producer has a legitimate tax plan with 294 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 1: their advisors, as long as it's a legitimate tax plan, 295 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 1: we will do our very very best to cooperate and 296 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 1: make the transaction and the sale of the catalog is 297 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: smooth and seamless as as as the songwriter needs it 298 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: to be. Um, and that's something that you know, the 299 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: music business that you and I came into wasn't such 300 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: a sophisticated place. I'm happy to say it's becoming more 301 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: sophisticated on behalf of artists and songwriters and producers every day. 302 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: So you know, there are many many good business managers 303 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: and lawyers out there that have looked after clients well, 304 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: certainly in the hundred and fifty odd transactions that we've 305 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: made today. Okay, an iconic artist doesn't have that much 306 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: runway left. Paul Simon talks about not touring anymore. He's 307 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 1: either eighty or going to be eighty this year. Now 308 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: you say, whatever the multiple is, let's just assume it's 309 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: less than twenty, and you predict that you'll make the 310 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: money back in ten. What is the pitch to someone 311 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: who's in their thirties like Andrew Watt. So that's really 312 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: about de risking that person's future. You know that if 313 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: you look at Andrew Watt specifically, Andrew Watt is not 314 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: only an incredible songwriter and perhaps the most important young 315 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: songwriter in the world today. As I mentioned before, you know, 316 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: the Grammy Award winning Producer of the Year, you know, 317 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: killing it with du Olyppa, with Miley Cyrus, with Post Malone, 318 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: with Ozzy Osborne. Because he's a guy that that that 319 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: you know, works on music that he loves. He just 320 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: doesn't just work on on on whatever is the flavor 321 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: of the moment today. Um. And you know, in Andrew's case, 322 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: he was a guy that was very very bright, that 323 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: made an admin deal, didn't take any money for it, 324 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: and just went to work and relied on himself to 325 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,120 Speaker 1: uh succeed in order to put money in his pocket 326 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: and to pay the rent and you know, put food 327 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: on his table and and and everything else that goes 328 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: with it. So for someone like Andrew now at the 329 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: age of thirty, his future is entirely de risked. What 330 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: he works on tomorrow is his own choice because he's 331 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 1: got enough money now to live for the rest of 332 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: his life. And that's an important, you know, point of 333 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: freedom for any young creator. Um so you know, it's 334 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 1: it's it's you know you is you I think are 335 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 1: getting to it. You know, people have different motivations for 336 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,439 Speaker 1: for for selling, and in his case, it's de risking 337 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: his future and creating a relationship with a company like Hypnosis, 338 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: because when we make these transactions, that's the beginning of 339 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 1: the relationship. That's not the sum total of the relationship. 340 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 1: Every one of the hundred and fifty deals that we've made, 341 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: these people are now part of the Hypnosis family. They 342 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: work with the eighty three people that I have around 343 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: the world, and we're doing great things together. So for 344 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: someone like Andrew, the prime motivation is that he's now 345 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 1: de risked his future. But the second part of his 346 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 1: motivation is that he now has a partner to help 347 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,959 Speaker 1: execute many of the things along with Scooter Braun as 348 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: his manager, to execute many of the things that that 349 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: are important to him in his growth as as both 350 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: an artist and a producer and a songwriter. Okay, you 351 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: say they're partners. What is the potential upside of an 352 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: act that makes a deal with you? So every artist, 353 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: without whether they ask for it or whether they don't, 354 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: are going to get a minimum of two bonuses in 355 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: our deals. And the reason why I have those two 356 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: bonuses at the end of year three and at the 357 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: end of year four is because I don't ever want 358 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: anyone to have negative emotion for making a deal with me. 359 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 1: So I'm very clear with people from the get go 360 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: that I'm doing this. On the one part, you know, 361 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: the motive, the motive of the fund is obviously to 362 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: make money for our shareholders and for ourselves. The ulterior 363 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 1: motive is to change where the songwriter sits in the 364 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: economic equation. But as we work towards the ulterior motive, 365 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: you know, the motive is something that is coming together 366 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: very very quickly. And if I'm right, and streaming grows 367 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: from four under the fifty million people inside of the 368 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: next decade to two billion people around the world. If 369 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: I'm right, in the copyright Board ruling stays in place, 370 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: and there's a forty four percent increase if I'm right, 371 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: and we can actively manage our catalogs better than where 372 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 1: they came from before, and there's that growth both from 373 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 1: a capital perspective and from a revenue perspective. I want 374 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: the songwriter to participate paid in that, so I build 375 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: in bonuses at the end of year three and at 376 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,239 Speaker 1: the end of year four that are as much as 377 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 1: of what the purchase price was in the first place. Okay, 378 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 1: what happens after year four? After year four, then it 379 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: depends on what you know. That's a standard practice that 380 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 1: I have for every deal that I make. If someone 381 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 1: has negotiated something better than that after year four, then 382 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: that's a different story. Okay, So some people this is 383 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 1: a negotiable point. It's a negotiable point because, as I say, 384 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: I want people to be able to participate in the 385 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 1: in the upside um. And uh, I'd never wanted to 386 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: be any negative emotion in someone, you know, I never 387 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 1: want someone to knock on the door and say, dude, 388 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: you were smarter than I was, Which is why I'm 389 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: very clear with people from the get go what my 390 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: thoughts are on where this business is going. Okay, now 391 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: you're the big Juna, the Primary Wave is buying catalogs, 392 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 1: Roundhill is buying catalogs. Now we saw Universal and Sony. 393 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: Does everyone ultimately pay the same price or is it 394 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: a bidding war? How does an act ultimately decide? Well, 395 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: seventy of the of the transactions that we make are 396 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: off market transactions that never involve you know, Primary Wave 397 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: or round Hill or or you know any of these 398 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: other companies that are are are out there. Obviously, Universal 399 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 1: and Warner and Sony have made some deals of their own, 400 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: but they're not particularly active. You can understand why if 401 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 1: a Bob Dylan were available on the market, why Universal 402 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: would do that, whereas for the most part they're not buyers. 403 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 1: You can understand why Sony would make a deal like 404 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: Paul Simon, where for the most part they're not buyers. Uh. 405 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: You know, Lend Blevotnik has Tempo as a fund within Warners, 406 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 1: But in general they seem to be buying only catalogs 407 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 1: where they have a first or matching right on having 408 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: signed an artist early enough to be able to have 409 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:17,719 Speaker 1: that built into the contract. But I I don't fear 410 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: the competition in the same way that many of my 411 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: competitors feel the competition because I rely on the relationship 412 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: that I have with artists in the community and songwriters 413 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: in the community and producers in the community that I 414 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: believe in and that in turn believe in me, and 415 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: that puts me in a situation where I don't have 416 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: to compete, as I say, of the time and the 417 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: thirty percent of the time where I am competing, if 418 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,199 Speaker 1: something special comes along. You know, we have people like 419 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: Richie Samborra from Bon Jovi or the Risive from the 420 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,479 Speaker 1: Wood Tang Clan that are you know, on public record 421 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: as having sold to us for less than what they 422 00:24:55,760 --> 00:25:00,360 Speaker 1: were offered by competitors, because the material difference is not 423 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: the size of the check, but the quality of the 424 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: people that you're you know, putting your metaphorical children into 425 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: the hands of you know, where I'm a I'm a 426 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: good surrogate parent when it comes to music, because I care. 427 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: It's not just about the money for me, It's about 428 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: doing what's right for the music. And what I've certainly 429 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 1: discovered in the almost forty years that I've been doing 430 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: this is doing the right thing. Money comes to you. 431 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: If you do something based on money, sometimes you'll find 432 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: it very, very hard to to have that money coming 433 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: to you. So you know I'm I'm someone that is 434 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: always making decisions based on what's in the best interest 435 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: of the music. Um. And then I have the trust 436 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: in the surrender to the good man above that the 437 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 1: money will find us. Okay, in the case of Paul 438 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 1: Simon and Bob Dylan, did you make a bid on 439 00:25:55,000 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: those catalogs on Paul Simon? No? UM On Bob Dylan, 440 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: I'm under n d A. So I have to be 441 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: careful about what I say, but I will say that. UM. 442 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 1: You know, Jeff Rosen, who looks after Bob Dylan's publishing, 443 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: is arguably the most underrated person in our business. He's 444 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: done an unbelievable job for Bob over the years. Bob 445 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 1: obviously has a level of faith and trust in him 446 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: to allow him to execute that job. Was sometimes many 447 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: artists find that difficult to do. So I I pursued 448 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: Jeff and threw him Bob for the better part of 449 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 1: eighteen months or two years to make a deal. And 450 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: and uh I believe that the only discussions that he 451 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: ultimately had were with Hypnosis and Universal and uh I 452 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 1: think that the deal that he was able to make 453 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: was a deal that only a company that's worth you know, 454 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: thirty three and a half billion euros to fifty billion 455 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: dollars could have made. Okay, do you think you helped 456 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,439 Speaker 1: incentivize Bob to sell or was Bob the kicking the 457 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: tires on selling when you get in the picture eighteen 458 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 1: months ago? Now, you know, I worked very hard to 459 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: get uh. You know, when I talk about establishing songs 460 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: as an asset class, inherent in that is that I 461 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: believe that music has a value on behalf of artists 462 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 1: and songwriters and producers, that everyone is known all along, 463 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: but that the major companies and other people like Primary 464 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: Waves who've been buying and selling catalogs for a long 465 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: time didn't want to fully acknowledge. And I was very 466 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: happy to fully acknowledge what the true value of of 467 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: of of of these incredible songs are because it's in 468 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: the context of explosive streaming growth and all of those 469 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,880 Speaker 1: other levers that I talked about. So, you know, it's 470 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: very very important on the part of Hypnosis to truly 471 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: recognize the value of these songs. To make sure, you know, 472 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: nine point nine percent of our deals out of the 473 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty deals that we made A hundred and 474 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,719 Speaker 1: forty eight of them are directly with the songwriter, the artist, 475 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,679 Speaker 1: or the producer. There are only two deals that that 476 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 1: were you know, a collection of songs that were owned 477 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: by Cobalt, for example, that we've made separate and apart 478 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: from that, all of our deals are made directly with 479 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 1: the artist and the songwriter and producer because I want 480 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 1: them to be acknowledged and I want them to be 481 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 1: put in a position where they are their their futures 482 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 1: de risked. Whether you're a thirty year old Andrew Watt 483 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 1: or whether you're a seventy five year old Neil Young, 484 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: I want you to be the beneficiary of of of 485 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: of of the deal, not some corporation. And in doing that, 486 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 1: I've truly do you ever talk to somebody and say 487 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: you ever talk to somebody say I don't think you 488 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: should sell. I tell people that almost in every instance, 489 00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: that I don't think that they should sell, and I 490 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: tell them in exactly why I don't think that they 491 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: should sell. But at the same time, I also tell 492 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 1: them why, if they're at that place in their life 493 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: where they want to sell, why I'm the right person 494 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: to sell to. So you know, because you know, as 495 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: you know, you can take a piece of real estate, 496 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: whether it's you know, anywhere in the world London, Los Angeles, 497 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: you know, and you know New York, Miami where I 498 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: am at the moment, and you know, you could say 499 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: to someone, look, you know, you've got to hold on 500 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: to that property because twenty years from now that's going 501 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: to be you know, it's something really really special, even 502 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: relative to where it is right now. And of course, 503 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: if if you don't have twenty years, what's the point, 504 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: right It's it's so if someone's at a point in 505 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: their life where they're ready to sell, then I'm the 506 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: right person to sell to. If if if your music 507 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: is something that I care about, then I'm the right 508 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: person to sell to. If your if your music is 509 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: not something that I care about, then there's a lot 510 00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: of other people out there. Okay, you only a hundred 511 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: percent of the catalogs you buy. Now, there are there 512 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: are instances where we've bought off interest of the overall catalogs. 513 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: So you know, we would never go in and pick, 514 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: you know, fifty songs out of a hundred. It would 515 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: be buying a half interest in all one hundred songs. 516 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: As an example. Um, so there are instances, you know, 517 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: I would say probably out of the hundred and fifty 518 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: catalogs that we own, a hundred and forty five of 519 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: them are owned, and there are probably five of them 520 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: where we own somewhere between fifty and seventy and in 521 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: those five, and this is a minor part of your portfolio, 522 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: do you have an option to buy the rest of 523 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: it or is it left totally open? Correct? No, we 524 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: have an option to buy the rest of it. And 525 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: most of the deals that we make, even when we're 526 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: buying a hundred percent of a songwriter's catalog, if there's 527 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: someone that that is young and has a future, like 528 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: Andrew Rott as an example, then we'll have a first 529 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: and matching right on their next catalog as well. Okay, 530 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: so let's soon I make a deal. You've established your 531 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: bona fides. But theoretically, and I certainly hope this doesn't happen, 532 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: you could die tonight, Okay, and as so could I. 533 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: Are there chemian clauses or the ability to buy back 534 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: or can the catalogs be transferred freely after Hypnosis purchases them? No, 535 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: there are, there are There are no key man clauses 536 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,239 Speaker 1: and there are no abilities to buy back. But I 537 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: have probably relative to other you know what, I don't 538 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: allow us to be called a publishing company, where a 539 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: song management company, but relative to say, companies that are 540 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: called publishing companies, we probably have a higher level of 541 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: people in position marketing these songs and protecting these songs 542 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: than any other company in the world, including Universal Warner 543 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,959 Speaker 1: and Sony because the sort of executives that we have, 544 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: whether it's Amy Thompson who's the chief catalog officer, or 545 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: Ted Cockle who's the president, you know, these are people 546 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: that are generally reserved for recorded music roles where the 547 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: record company is getting the lion's share of the money, 548 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: where the economics allow them to spend this kind of 549 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: money on on on executives. In most publishing companies, the 550 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: money is being spent on A and R executives rather 551 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: than marketing people. So I've put in an incredible network 552 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: of eight three plus people now that as I say, 553 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: include people like Amy Thompson, Ted Cockle, Kenny McPherson, Richard 554 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: Rowe that are real artist people that understand and love 555 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: the music as much as I do, and that are 556 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: there to to ensure that the artists and the songwriter 557 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 1: are protected. Um, in the case that I do get 558 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: hit by that proverbial bus and I'm no longer there tomorrow. 559 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: And my children, who have grown up with this music 560 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: and who have grown up with these artists all of 561 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: their lives, are also a part of the company, and 562 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: they know what my standards are, UM, and adhere to 563 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: those as well. So it's it's there's probably if you know, 564 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: if you'd asked me this question two years ago, UM, 565 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: that was a real issue, right because obviously I hadn't 566 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: made the company exciting enough yet at that point to 567 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: be able to track people like Ted or Amy or 568 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: Kenny or whoever it might be. Now at this point, 569 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: you know, we're about to start our fourth year. UM. 570 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: You know, as you very nicely said, this is the 571 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: most exciting company and music perhaps today, and therefore there's 572 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: no shortage of quality people that are prepared to follow 573 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: in my footsteps and protect the artist if necessary. Okay, 574 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 1: now one for you dressed earlier. I want to expand 575 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: most of the money is in streaming. There's a dollar 576 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: in streaming dollar of income comes in. Although Spotify is 577 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: being beaten up, we all know, that's not really what's 578 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:15,879 Speaker 1: going on. They have to stay in business. They're taking 579 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: approximately thirty Most people in the artist community feel of 580 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: the remaining seventy cents, let's call it that the songwriter 581 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: got a raw deal. Now we also know that these 582 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: major at this point only three companies also have a 583 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: huge footprint in songwriting and therefore, on some level they 584 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: don't care where the money comes from. Is there any 585 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: chance that the percentage will grow? You know, you talk 586 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: about the legal with one for four, but as we 587 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: go down, what's an appropriate amount of a streaming dollar 588 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 1: that should go to the songwriter and how do we 589 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,839 Speaker 1: get there? Yeah, there's no question that the songwriters share 590 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: of the income is going to grow. And you know, 591 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: the business that you and I came into, both as 592 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,319 Speaker 1: fans and then as professionals was one that you know, 593 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: I I affectionately referred to as the post Beatles paradigm, 594 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 1: right where ninety percent of the artists that we would 595 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: sign and work on were people that, you know, we're 596 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: self contained. They you know, had a good idea of 597 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: who they were, who they might become. They wrote their 598 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 1: own songs, they knew what their album covers should look 599 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: like what their stage show should look like. And the 600 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: job of someone like you or I was to a 601 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 1: believe in them and be to put a plan in 602 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: place to bring their ideas to fruition and to bring 603 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: them success make other people believe in them. Today the 604 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,240 Speaker 1: business is much more like the nineties and the nineteen fifties, 605 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,359 Speaker 1: where nine of the artists that are being signed are 606 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: very talented people, but that are absolutely reliant on outside 607 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,399 Speaker 1: songwriters to deliver their heads. So, you know, I don't 608 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 1: know if you know a statistic, but you know, we 609 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: were talking about Bob Dylan a few minutes ago. It's 610 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 1: the second of the last Bob Dylan album in two 611 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:11,879 Speaker 1: thousand and fourteen, which I think was tempest Um. That 612 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: is the last album that became a Billboard Top one 613 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: album of the year that didn't have an outside songwriter 614 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: on it um. So the song it has never yea 615 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: So the songwriter has never been more important in our 616 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: lifetimes but perhaps ever in history than they are today. 617 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,359 Speaker 1: And you know, if you're Monty Lippmann or if you're 618 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,840 Speaker 1: John Janet or Rob Stringer, you know you need to 619 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: have a relationship with you know, whether it's Andrew Watt 620 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,319 Speaker 1: or Taylor Parks or Benny Blanco or the monsters and strangers. 621 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,399 Speaker 1: Those relationships are more important to you today than your 622 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,959 Speaker 1: than your artist relationships are, because that's where the hits 623 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: are coming from, is from the songwriter. But I want 624 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,399 Speaker 1: to to um, take up a point that you made 625 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: a minute ago, which is, you know, you said they 626 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: didn't care where the money was coming from. But the 627 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,800 Speaker 1: truth is is that they absolutely care where the money 628 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: is coming from. And the reason why the songwriter is 629 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 1: the low man or woman on the totem pole in 630 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: the economic equation today is because the three biggest song 631 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: companies in the world, being Universal, Warner and Sony don't 632 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:29,359 Speaker 1: advocate for songwriters, Um, you know. And it's not because 633 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 1: they don't want to, it's because they can't because they're 634 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 1: you know, those three biggest publishing companies in the world 635 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: are owned by the three biggest recorded music companies in 636 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: the world. And on the recorded music side of the business, 637 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 1: they're getting four fifths of the revenue, they're getting an 638 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 1: eight gross margin of forty net margin, and in general 639 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 1: they own those master recordings in perpetuity, right is you 640 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,720 Speaker 1: and I know there are very few artists that actually 641 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: own their own masters. Right. Conversely, on the song side 642 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: of the busines this on the publishing side of the business, 643 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: you've got a fifth of the revenue, you've got a 644 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,839 Speaker 1: fifth of the margin, and quite rightly, whether it's through 645 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: good management and lawyering in the first place or reversions 646 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: or renegotiations, the songs end up back in the hands 647 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: of the people that co created them. So recorded music 648 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:25,799 Speaker 1: controlling publishing and stopping publishing for advocating for songwriters is 649 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,799 Speaker 1: why you have this unbelievable disparity. In the way that 650 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: you described the dollar being split, You're right, thirty cents 651 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 1: goes to Spotify or Apple. Now you can make an 652 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 1: argument that that thirty cents will eventually become cents twenty 653 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 1: four cents, and I'm quite certain it will, but that's 654 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 1: not the material point. The material points what happens to 655 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,320 Speaker 1: the other seventy cents, And currently the other seventy cents 656 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,319 Speaker 1: is fifty eight and a half cents going to the 657 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: record company. Because of their power that they wield mercilessly, 658 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: they are paying most artists on a sale rather than 659 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: on a license, when it actually should be a license. 660 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 1: If it was a license, they'd be having to split 661 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,480 Speaker 1: that fifty eight and a half cents with them, but 662 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: by paying them on a sale, they pay them about 663 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,240 Speaker 1: nine cents out of every dollar, So they're clearing almost 664 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 1: fifty cents out of every dollar in recorded music. And conversely, 665 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 1: on the song side of the business, you've got eleven 666 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: and a half cents that remain. Sometimes you've got four 667 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,239 Speaker 1: or five six songwriters on a song. They have to 668 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,319 Speaker 1: split that eleven and a half cents with their publishers 669 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: in some way, shape or form. So you know, these 670 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: great songwriters that are delivering the songs that make the 671 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 1: world go around are getting fractions of a penny on 672 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: every dollar. And that you know, as I said at 673 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 1: the very beginning, this has been changing. This system has 674 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,359 Speaker 1: been the ulterior mode of of hypnosis. The reason why 675 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 1: I created hypnosis is that in managing people like Diane 676 00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,399 Speaker 1: Warren and the Dream at Justin Tranter, people that we're 677 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 1: songwriters at at the very very highest heights of success, 678 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,400 Speaker 1: and yet they weren't getting what they should be getting 679 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: because of this system where and people will turn around 680 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 1: to me and say, listen, you know why you blame 681 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,719 Speaker 1: blaming Universal Warner and Sony aren't. Isn't the way that 682 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: songwriters are paid, you know, dictated by legislation, And the 683 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 1: answer to that is absolutely, it's dictated by legislation. But 684 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 1: how is legislation affected. It's affected by lobbying, It's affected 685 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: by advocacy. So if you don't have the three biggest 686 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: companies in the world advocating for songwriters and fighting for 687 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: them to get paid more money, how do you expect 688 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 1: that to be reflected in the legislation. So we're a 689 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 1: catalyst to bring that change. I'm very, very vocal about it. 690 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,879 Speaker 1: As I say, it's the ulterior motive, and every one 691 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: of my four ninety odd institutional investors has known from 692 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 1: day one that this ulterior motive is the real reason 693 00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: why the fund was created, because I knew that if 694 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 1: I talked to Bob Left, it's and I talked this 695 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,600 Speaker 1: way that you know, Universal Warner and Sony could squash 696 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,160 Speaker 1: me like a fly if they wanted to. But now 697 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 1: they can't because I've a multi billion dollar company behind me, 698 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: some of the finest song assets in the world, and 699 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,799 Speaker 1: I have a platform to speak on behalf of the 700 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 1: songwriter and the creator um and to try and bring 701 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,319 Speaker 1: change and of course, the serendipity of it all is 702 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 1: that if I can bring that change and I can 703 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,319 Speaker 1: get the songwriter paid more money, it's also in the 704 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 1: best interest of my shareholders because they'll get more money 705 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,720 Speaker 1: for the songs that we own. And therefore they're prepared 706 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:37,799 Speaker 1: to fight and they're prepared to put their money in 707 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:42,440 Speaker 1: and you know when you've got uh, you know, investors 708 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 1: that range from the Church of England to invest Deck, 709 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 1: to invest Go to refer to you know, Acca and 710 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,920 Speaker 1: Newton and on and on and on. These are all 711 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 1: people that that that have a lot of power in 712 00:41:55,120 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 1: their own right. Um, so that was really the motive. Okay, 713 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,200 Speaker 1: let's just say, let's just say you get more for songwriters. 714 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,000 Speaker 1: Are you agitate for that or advocate for that? It's 715 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 1: got to come out of the recording company's end. I mean, 716 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 1: they're gonna really hard, you know what they've what they've done, Bob, 717 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 1: which I think is unbelievable. You know, if you and 718 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,239 Speaker 1: I were having this conversation five years ago, we'd never 719 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 1: be able to look each other in the eye and 720 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: say that the best years of the music industry in 721 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,359 Speaker 1: front of it, right. We can say, hey, remember back 722 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 1: in ninety nine, remember back in the year two thousand, 723 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 1: whereas right now, you know, I can look my nineteen 724 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 1: year old son in the eye and say you should 725 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,800 Speaker 1: absolutely devote yourself to music because the best years of 726 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,239 Speaker 1: the music industry in front of it. So, you know, 727 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:44,319 Speaker 1: Universal Warner and Sony And despite the fact that our 728 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 1: our business has been saved by Daniel Eck and Spotify, 729 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:51,800 Speaker 1: and the way that Apple have followed and Spotify is 730 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 1: wake um, you know, creating this very powerful one to 731 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,560 Speaker 1: punch and obviously lots of great regionals around the world 732 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,320 Speaker 1: as well. Um, you know we're making them out to 733 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,800 Speaker 1: be the villain, right we were? You know, we've we've 734 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,120 Speaker 1: just given evidence for the last four or five months 735 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,759 Speaker 1: in the UK in the Department of Culture, Music and 736 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,080 Speaker 1: Sciences hearings in Parliament, right and the if you look 737 00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,560 Speaker 1: at our written evidence UH and also our our personal 738 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:24,640 Speaker 1: evidence are in person evidence. The hearings were originally called 739 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:30,839 Speaker 1: UH an investigation into the Business Practices of Music Streaming Services, 740 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,880 Speaker 1: and the first couple of sentences of our written evidence 741 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,879 Speaker 1: basically say, you know, look, we appreciate that you're doing 742 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:42,920 Speaker 1: these hearings into the quote unquote business practices of music 743 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:46,120 Speaker 1: streaming services. But we think what you're gonna find very 744 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,359 Speaker 1: very quickly, and we want to prepare you for this, 745 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,920 Speaker 1: is that what you're really going to be investigating is 746 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 1: the unhealthy relationship that exists between the three major companies 747 00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:01,200 Speaker 1: recorded music companies in the world, controlling three major publishing 748 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:05,160 Speaker 1: companies in the world and stopping them from advocating for songwriters. 749 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 1: That's what stopping the songwriter from being paid properly. And 750 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,759 Speaker 1: the funny thing, and the most ironic thing about all 751 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,759 Speaker 1: of this is that if you're Big John and you're 752 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 1: running Sony, if you're a guy Moot or Carry and 753 00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:22,880 Speaker 1: you're running Warna Chapel, if you're um, excuse me, Jody 754 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,640 Speaker 1: and you're running Universal, you're delivering the most exciting people 755 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 1: in your entire company's business, and yet you're not being 756 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:34,359 Speaker 1: rewarded properly for it. Right. It's it's not I'm not 757 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:39,400 Speaker 1: when I am critical of the majors. I'm not critical 758 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 1: of the publishing companies. I think the publishing companies are 759 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,480 Speaker 1: doing great work. I'm not critical of the people that 760 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,240 Speaker 1: that work in the recorded music companies. What I'm critical 761 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:51,759 Speaker 1: of is the paradigm. There are people that work in 762 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,960 Speaker 1: those companies that are as passionate about music, that care 763 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,880 Speaker 1: as much as I do and and you do, and 764 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,799 Speaker 1: that do great work, but they're off parading under a 765 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,920 Speaker 1: seventy five year old paradigm that doesn't properly recognize the 766 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,560 Speaker 1: role of the songwriter. And that's why I'm intent on 767 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:15,840 Speaker 1: changing it. Let's go to the other side of the equation. 768 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 1: You own these songs. There's administration. This is something that's 769 00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:24,160 Speaker 1: been evolving in the Internet era. Cobalt was the first mover. 770 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,919 Speaker 1: Universal seems to have updated their systems. Let's leave Sync 771 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:34,640 Speaker 1: aside at this point in time. Who administers typnosis? So 772 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:38,080 Speaker 1: we have deals with everybody, so we we you know, Cobalts, 773 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:42,239 Speaker 1: I would say, are our preferred administrator. We believe that 774 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,440 Speaker 1: they collect more. We believe that they collected faster, and 775 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 1: we believe that they pay it through faster, and we 776 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,520 Speaker 1: believe that they do it in a completely transparent way. 777 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 1: But you're absolutely correct that Universal and Sony and now 778 00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:01,920 Speaker 1: Warner two are all king hard to try to get 779 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:06,759 Speaker 1: to a better place, right But the difference is this 780 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:10,960 Speaker 1: is that you know, most of these big companies also 781 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,239 Speaker 1: operate on a two year money go around right where 782 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:16,839 Speaker 1: they collect some money in Spain and it sits there 783 00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,640 Speaker 1: for six months, and then you know, it operates that 784 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,799 Speaker 1: they send the money to the UK and it sits 785 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,520 Speaker 1: there for another six months, and then they send it 786 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:26,960 Speaker 1: to the US and it sits there for another six months. 787 00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:30,000 Speaker 1: And because most of them still only have two non 788 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:33,640 Speaker 1: transparent reporting periods a year, you know, January one to 789 00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,440 Speaker 1: June thirty and they pay you out at September thirty, 790 00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:38,840 Speaker 1: July one to December thirty one, and they pay you 791 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,840 Speaker 1: out at March thirty one. You know, they're basically holding 792 00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,160 Speaker 1: onto your money for the better part of two years. 793 00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:48,440 Speaker 1: And there's a great book um uh that's out this 794 00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:55,120 Speaker 1: week um by will the Formumer team Spotify. Will page 795 00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,920 Speaker 1: that you know, will tell you that, you know, if 796 00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:01,200 Speaker 1: you were to take the cap it all that is 797 00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:04,800 Speaker 1: being used by Universal, Warner and Sony on a daily basis, 798 00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:07,600 Speaker 1: from moneys that haven't gone through, to songwriters that haven't 799 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,080 Speaker 1: gone through to artists, it's a massive part of of 800 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:12,839 Speaker 1: you know, it's the capital that they used to keep 801 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:16,160 Speaker 1: their businesses going and making new investments. Um And this 802 00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:20,800 Speaker 1: is artists money and and songwriters money. You know, Willard 803 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:25,560 Speaker 1: ardreents at cobalt Um, I think came to the business 804 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:30,680 Speaker 1: twenty years ago with a very noble and important idea, 805 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,840 Speaker 1: which was to have transparency for the songwriter and the 806 00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,520 Speaker 1: artist and to put them in a position where their 807 00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,760 Speaker 1: money was being collected quickly, it was being paid through quickly, 808 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,000 Speaker 1: and that they understood every step of the way. The 809 00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:49,960 Speaker 1: fact that that has now forced the major companies to 810 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,800 Speaker 1: try and and and at least uh go some level 811 00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:58,040 Speaker 1: of of emulation, or to some degree of emulation, I 812 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:03,560 Speaker 1: think is the the artistic community and the songwriting community, 813 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,680 Speaker 1: Oh Willard a debt that could never ever be repaid. 814 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,880 Speaker 1: And certainly the spirit of Hypnosis follows very much that 815 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,919 Speaker 1: of Cobalt. That you know, we're forcing people to make 816 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:16,640 Speaker 1: change that they don't want to change, that that they 817 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:18,560 Speaker 1: that they don't want to make, whether they don't feel 818 00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,040 Speaker 1: that they can make because of course people fear change 819 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,040 Speaker 1: right on a on a on a personal level, I 820 00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:26,600 Speaker 1: like things to be the same way every day in 821 00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:30,120 Speaker 1: my personal life, but in my professional life. You know, 822 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,520 Speaker 1: people call me a disruptor. I've never used that word myself, 823 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:38,880 Speaker 1: but I'm absolutely wanting to destroy these paradigms that have existed, 824 00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:40,719 Speaker 1: and that I've put the artists at the bottom of 825 00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:43,080 Speaker 1: the pile, and I want to put them take them 826 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:45,400 Speaker 1: to the top of the pile. Because without the songwriter 827 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,759 Speaker 1: in the artist, what do we have right if you 828 00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:53,920 Speaker 1: go and see an artist. Because yeah, we made that 829 00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:56,319 Speaker 1: point many times. Let's go back to administrator. You can't, 830 00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,000 Speaker 1: but you can't. But you can't make it enough, Bob, 831 00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:05,120 Speaker 1: you know the remember three rises in the past eighties, 832 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,680 Speaker 1: six years, Right, There's there's so much and I'll use 833 00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:10,360 Speaker 1: this word and you can beep it out if you like, 834 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,000 Speaker 1: but there's so much fuccory in this business that you 835 00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,319 Speaker 1: have to keep repeating the same things over and over 836 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,120 Speaker 1: and over again. So thank you for indulging. Those are 837 00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:19,880 Speaker 1: all good points, but I want to be able to 838 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,480 Speaker 1: address a little bit more. So. You say that a 839 00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:29,200 Speaker 1: hypnosis uses multiple administration companies, and would hypnosis ever go 840 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:36,920 Speaker 1: into the administration business? Um? You know, So we use 841 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,959 Speaker 1: multiple administration companies that say Cobalt is our preferred administrator. 842 00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:44,160 Speaker 1: But we do great work with Sony on a daily 843 00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,840 Speaker 1: basis on our artists and songwriters. The same thing with Universal, 844 00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,400 Speaker 1: the same thing with Warner including Concorde as well, and 845 00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,080 Speaker 1: and and and several others. Because of course, when we 846 00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:59,000 Speaker 1: buy our catalogs, often there is no administration deal in place, 847 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,040 Speaker 1: so we can take over on day one. But at 848 00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,879 Speaker 1: other times there's a year left on the administration, there's 849 00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,759 Speaker 1: two years left on the administration. We've even bought some 850 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:12,760 Speaker 1: catalogs where the administration is is perpetual with a particular company. 851 00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,480 Speaker 1: And I think that you know, you you talked about 852 00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:18,560 Speaker 1: universal um, you know, kind of stepping up to the 853 00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,600 Speaker 1: plate as far as emulating Cobalt or or or doing 854 00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,239 Speaker 1: something that's forward thinking. But I think that you can 855 00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:28,359 Speaker 1: give Sony a lot of credit on that front as well. UM. 856 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,959 Speaker 1: And I think that that that now with Guy Mood 857 00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:32,799 Speaker 1: at Warner Chapel, I think he's gonna want to do 858 00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,000 Speaker 1: the same thing. So you know, I have high hopes 859 00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:37,200 Speaker 1: that that all of them will want to do the 860 00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:40,920 Speaker 1: same thing. I'm I'm in the asset business, so you know, 861 00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:45,040 Speaker 1: from that point of view, I believe that my investors 862 00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:51,279 Speaker 1: money should go into buying great songs, um. And that 863 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,640 Speaker 1: you know, you can rent these services from people. But 864 00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:57,840 Speaker 1: as we approach you know what is now, you know, 865 00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:01,280 Speaker 1: two point five billion dollars in did and I expect 866 00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:03,759 Speaker 1: that by the end of the next two years will 867 00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:07,040 Speaker 1: be about six billion dollars invested. It might be in 868 00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:11,600 Speaker 1: the best interest of our shareholders to have an administration 869 00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:15,760 Speaker 1: company UM and that's something that that will continue to 870 00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,239 Speaker 1: to keep an eye on. But you know that, to 871 00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:21,040 Speaker 1: me is not the priority. The priority is to to 872 00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,960 Speaker 1: stay very focused on buying these great songs while they're 873 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,759 Speaker 1: there to buy. Okay, let's talk about you specifically, Mark. 874 00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:31,799 Speaker 1: Where did you grow up, What did your parents do 875 00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,239 Speaker 1: for a living, how many kids in the family, what 876 00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:39,160 Speaker 1: was your adolescents like? Um So I was born in 877 00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:43,200 Speaker 1: a mining town in Quebec that doesn't exist anymore. When 878 00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:45,440 Speaker 1: the when the mind dried up, the people dried up. 879 00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:48,720 Speaker 1: To um So, I ended up being raised in Nova Scotia. 880 00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:53,040 Speaker 1: My parents were Greek immigrants to to Toronto in the 881 00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:56,680 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties. Before I was born, my father had been 882 00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,840 Speaker 1: a soccer player in Greece for a team called Pouk 883 00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,440 Speaker 1: and he was brought to Canada to play soccer for 884 00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:06,319 Speaker 1: a team called the Toronto Star, which is the sort 885 00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:11,200 Speaker 1: of forefather of the Toronto MLS team today. Um and 886 00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:14,640 Speaker 1: his brother was a topographer for the iron Ore company. 887 00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:18,120 Speaker 1: Of Canada. So when he retired from soccer, he went 888 00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,759 Speaker 1: to work with his brother. In those days, you know, 889 00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:26,200 Speaker 1: the brother was was responsible for designing the infrastructure that 890 00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:29,799 Speaker 1: the miners would would need to live and do their job. 891 00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:33,040 Speaker 1: And there were opportunities, whether it was building restaurants or 892 00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,960 Speaker 1: schools or or whatever the case might be. When all 893 00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,719 Speaker 1: that dried up, we moved to Nova Scotia, and I 894 00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:44,080 Speaker 1: had this very idyllic childhood in Nova Scotia. But I 895 00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:46,320 Speaker 1: was very very lucky. I've got I've got a sister 896 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:52,120 Speaker 1: who's still in Toronto today, and and uh, she's lovely 897 00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:55,480 Speaker 1: and everything. But you know, when we were kids, we 898 00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:59,160 Speaker 1: didn't see eye to eye on on on just about anything. 899 00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:02,080 Speaker 1: Right if was black, you know, she loved the Boston Bruins. 900 00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:05,120 Speaker 1: I loved the Montreal Canadians. She loved which one of 901 00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:09,200 Speaker 1: you is older. She's one year older than I am. 902 00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:12,640 Speaker 1: So I had this very serendipitous thing happened to me though, 903 00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:18,239 Speaker 1: which is that my eldest cousin, my father's brother's eldest son, 904 00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,360 Speaker 1: who was about ten years older than I was. Um, 905 00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:24,399 Speaker 1: he got in trouble in Greece because Greece was under 906 00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:28,080 Speaker 1: a military junta. And if you were you know, fourteen 907 00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:30,480 Speaker 1: or fifteen years old and you were smoking dope and 908 00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:34,560 Speaker 1: and and you know, listening to music um and wearing 909 00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:37,680 Speaker 1: peace signs that the Greeks believed were like a broken crucifix, 910 00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:41,400 Speaker 1: you were you were a target for for the military. 911 00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:45,960 Speaker 1: So my uncle sent my older cousin, Mike to live 912 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:50,000 Speaker 1: with us. And this guy arrived with long hair. He 913 00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:54,920 Speaker 1: arrived with argust by wishbone Ash. He arrived with the 914 00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,840 Speaker 1: first two Fleetwood Mac records that the Peter Green Ones. 915 00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:01,719 Speaker 1: He arrived with Paranoid by Black Sabbath, super fled by 916 00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:06,640 Speaker 1: Curtis Mayfield, t for the Tillerman Uh, just about you know, 917 00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:10,160 Speaker 1: fourteen or fifteen albums that are still amongst the fourteen 918 00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:13,360 Speaker 1: or fifteen albums that are the most important in my life. 919 00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,880 Speaker 1: And he knew everything about drugs, and he knew everything 920 00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,440 Speaker 1: about girls, and he was someone to aspire to be 921 00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:23,640 Speaker 1: because he also knew an awful lot about music. And 922 00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:26,200 Speaker 1: that really kind of put me on the path that 923 00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:29,800 Speaker 1: you know, I'm still on today, and I'm still influenced by, 924 00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:32,440 Speaker 1: as I say, those those fourteen or fifteen records that 925 00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:35,239 Speaker 1: he had, and we would sit in in the room 926 00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:37,520 Speaker 1: that my parents had constructed for him, and we had 927 00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,799 Speaker 1: one of those you know, dropped down turntables where you'd 928 00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:43,239 Speaker 1: stack the records up and they dropped one at a 929 00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:45,839 Speaker 1: time and play through, and then you turn them all 930 00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:48,759 Speaker 1: over and play them through. And I fell in love 931 00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:54,040 Speaker 1: with this idea of twenty minutes of music and then 932 00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,520 Speaker 1: instead of wanting to hear the next twenty minutes of music, 933 00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,839 Speaker 1: you'd want to play that same side over and over 934 00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:04,280 Speaker 1: and over again because it was so magical. Um. And 935 00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:06,680 Speaker 1: you know, he arrived, he gave me a present for 936 00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:09,840 Speaker 1: the first birthday that that I had with him there, 937 00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,920 Speaker 1: which was a copy of Sergeant Pepper's And then that 938 00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:17,120 Speaker 1: got me into a place of spending every penny that 939 00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:20,680 Speaker 1: I had on on records. So very soon after I 940 00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:23,759 Speaker 1: bought my own tea for the Tillerman. Very soon after that, 941 00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,239 Speaker 1: I bought Harvest, uh. And these records, you know, a 942 00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:31,560 Speaker 1: small town of of of two thousand people, these records 943 00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:35,040 Speaker 1: really start to teach you that there's something else that's 944 00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,799 Speaker 1: going on in the world, uh, that's not going on 945 00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:42,040 Speaker 1: in your world. And then concurrently with that, my parents 946 00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,080 Speaker 1: one of the restaurants that they had was a diner, 947 00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,480 Speaker 1: and the diner had a jukebox in it, and that 948 00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:52,319 Speaker 1: jukebox had everything from Elvis Presley singing mac Davis's song 949 00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:55,400 Speaker 1: in the Ghetto to you know, looking out by My 950 00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:58,799 Speaker 1: back Door by CCR. And again, these records had a 951 00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:01,640 Speaker 1: massive effect on these So you know, I can very 952 00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:05,960 Speaker 1: distinctly remember In the Ghetto as being the first record 953 00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:08,600 Speaker 1: that I ever heard that made me sad, and that 954 00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:12,800 Speaker 1: made me realize that in fact, everyone's world wasn't perfect 955 00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:15,799 Speaker 1: in the way that my world seemed to be perfect. So, 956 00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:18,480 Speaker 1: if you like, it was my first kind of real 957 00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:23,520 Speaker 1: experience of empathy brought up by mac Davis's great words 958 00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:27,160 Speaker 1: and Elvis is great delivery. And you know, I suddenly 959 00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:29,560 Speaker 1: realized that I was going to the school of Neil Young, 960 00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:32,239 Speaker 1: and going to the school of Lou Reid and led 961 00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:36,239 Speaker 1: Zeppelin and Patti Smith and eventually the Clash, and you know, 962 00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:39,560 Speaker 1: these these are are the people that kind of educated 963 00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:42,520 Speaker 1: me and prepared me for a world. I can remember 964 00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:46,200 Speaker 1: playing needle in the damage done by Neil Young and 965 00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:49,600 Speaker 1: having nightmares that I was taking heroin and waking up 966 00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:51,680 Speaker 1: in in the morning and kind of looking at my 967 00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:53,879 Speaker 1: risks to see whether or not they were really track 968 00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:58,120 Speaker 1: marks there. Um. So the music had an unbelievably profound 969 00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:02,080 Speaker 1: effect on me. And you know, you you, I think 970 00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:05,440 Speaker 1: when you write your best is when you write about Elton, 971 00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:09,879 Speaker 1: and uh, when you write at your best is when 972 00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:13,200 Speaker 1: you're writing it Elton about Elton. And and those Alton 973 00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,760 Speaker 1: records had the same effect on me, particularly a little 974 00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:18,960 Speaker 1: bit later than than the ones that you rave about, 975 00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:22,880 Speaker 1: but particularly Captain Fantastic and someone saved my life tonight. 976 00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:26,200 Speaker 1: Those those are you unbelievably important records for me. So 977 00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:31,240 Speaker 1: they gave me the ability to manifest how the funk 978 00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:33,680 Speaker 1: to get out of this town with two thousand people 979 00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:36,880 Speaker 1: in it and go on to manage Elton John was 980 00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:40,840 Speaker 1: all based on on that obsession with this music and 981 00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:46,040 Speaker 1: recognizing that that, uh uh, there was something for me 982 00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:50,120 Speaker 1: to do because you know I talked about Elliott Roberts earlier. Um, 983 00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:53,360 Speaker 1: I was very clear from the time I was seven 984 00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:56,480 Speaker 1: or eight years old that I had no musical talent 985 00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:58,840 Speaker 1: and that I was never gonna be you know, Neil 986 00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:02,040 Speaker 1: Young or Jimmy Page or Robert Plant. So I started 987 00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:05,720 Speaker 1: to read about these people in everything from Rolling Stone 988 00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:09,240 Speaker 1: to Cream to whatever the library had, and I started 989 00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:11,520 Speaker 1: to learn about people like Elliott, and I started to 990 00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:15,200 Speaker 1: learn about people like Peter Grant, and suddenly there were 991 00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,480 Speaker 1: you know, kind of role models there for me that 992 00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,080 Speaker 1: you know, I believed that I could emulate. I I 993 00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:25,520 Speaker 1: got the real message that, uh, you know, people that 994 00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:27,960 Speaker 1: were making music wanted to make music, and that other 995 00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:30,880 Speaker 1: people had to come along and protect them and make 996 00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:34,000 Speaker 1: sure that that, you know, the commerce was maximized with 997 00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:39,640 Speaker 1: the art not being compromised. Okay, so you graduate from 998 00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:41,600 Speaker 1: high school, what's your next step? How do you get 999 00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:47,080 Speaker 1: out of Nova Scotia? Um? I literally ran away, Uh 1000 00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:51,200 Speaker 1: you know, I ended up in in in Uh you know, 1001 00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:55,840 Speaker 1: I've been writing letters to Simon Draper at Virgin Records 1002 00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:58,720 Speaker 1: in the UK. And and for for those that don't know, 1003 00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:03,920 Speaker 1: Simon was Richard's Richard Branson's cousin, and he was the 1004 00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:08,320 Speaker 1: guy that that uh you know, really was the musical 1005 00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:12,400 Speaker 1: brains behind the company. So you know, he had signed 1006 00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:15,400 Speaker 1: Tangerine Dream, he had signed My Goldfield, he had signed 1007 00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:19,480 Speaker 1: Robert Wyatt. But then of course subsequently everyone from the 1008 00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:22,920 Speaker 1: Sex Pistols to XTC two Simple Minds to You Be 1009 00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:27,200 Speaker 1: forty two. Uh you know the Human League, Peter Gabriel, 1010 00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:30,600 Speaker 1: you know, Orchestral Maneuvers in the dock you beforety On 1011 00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:34,160 Speaker 1: and on and on. So this amazing thing happened where 1012 00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:37,960 Speaker 1: I find myself working for Virgin Records, still in my teens, 1013 00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:42,080 Speaker 1: a little bit, a little bit slower. How do you 1014 00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:45,840 Speaker 1: write these letters? How do you literally get a job 1015 00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:48,760 Speaker 1: at Virgin Records? How old are you? And we're and 1016 00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:52,840 Speaker 1: what is the job? So I'm making I go to 1017 00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:58,200 Speaker 1: Toronto and I get a job for six months thanks 1018 00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:01,040 Speaker 1: to a girlfriend that I had, were king for the 1019 01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:07,080 Speaker 1: Canadian UH distributor of Motown. And before I got that job, 1020 01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:12,400 Speaker 1: I knew that Virgin was opening and they were going 1021 01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:15,200 Speaker 1: to open as a standalone label, and I went and 1022 01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:17,160 Speaker 1: met with the guy that was going to run it, 1023 01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:20,960 Speaker 1: and he offered me the job to be the marketing person, 1024 01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:24,920 Speaker 1: the one and only marketing person at Verga Records at 1025 01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:28,760 Speaker 1: that point. And but the company was gonna open for 1026 01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:32,520 Speaker 1: six months. So for that six month period, I got 1027 01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:37,280 Speaker 1: this job working for the Canadian distributor of Motown and 1028 01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:40,120 Speaker 1: which was a company called Quality Records and run by 1029 01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:44,560 Speaker 1: this magical guy called George Street and UH, a guy 1030 01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:49,240 Speaker 1: called UH Larry McCrae and Cameron Carpenter, who I know 1031 01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:52,200 Speaker 1: you you know quite well, and of course in Canada, 1032 01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:55,200 Speaker 1: and that that kind of became my little gang for 1033 01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:59,800 Speaker 1: this six month period. And the funny thing about this 1034 01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:04,920 Speaker 1: that within days of me starting the company took on 1035 01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:10,200 Speaker 1: a distribution deal with Clive Calder's then brand new Jive Records. 1036 01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:15,440 Speaker 1: And Uh, the guy that UH was the Jive person, 1037 01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:19,000 Speaker 1: the young Jive person in the same way that I 1038 01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:23,400 Speaker 1: was the young Quality Records person, was Barry Weiss. So 1039 01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:25,800 Speaker 1: the first phone call that we ever had, the first 1040 01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:28,080 Speaker 1: phone call I ever made, was to Barry Weiss. The 1041 01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:30,920 Speaker 1: first phone called Barry Weiss ever made, you know, in 1042 01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:33,160 Speaker 1: terms of being in the music business, was to me 1043 01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:36,800 Speaker 1: to talk about a band called the Compsat Angels that 1044 01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:39,760 Speaker 1: we both loved, that had been on poly Door and 1045 01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:42,960 Speaker 1: had a rough time and had now signed to Jive 1046 01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:46,480 Speaker 1: and were affectionately known as the cs Angels because the 1047 01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:50,280 Speaker 1: Compsat Satellite Company was taking action against them not to 1048 01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:52,960 Speaker 1: use the name. Um. So I was there for six 1049 01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:56,080 Speaker 1: months and then I went immediately to Virgin Records and 1050 01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:59,200 Speaker 1: started to work for Virgin Records, and I developed my 1051 01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:02,560 Speaker 1: relationship with Simple Minds, and I developed my relationship with 1052 01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:05,680 Speaker 1: Orchestral Maneuvers in the Dark and with the Human League, 1053 01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:08,520 Speaker 1: and you know, with all these wonderful artists. Because Virgin 1054 01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:13,320 Speaker 1: had this serendipitous situation where even though they were making 1055 01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:17,000 Speaker 1: left of center you know, what was known as alternative music, 1056 01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:21,840 Speaker 1: it was succeeding commercially in wild ways, you know, culture Club. 1057 01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:25,160 Speaker 1: We're becoming the biggest band in the world. Simple Minds 1058 01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:27,680 Speaker 1: were soon to follow suit. Um, and that was my 1059 01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:31,080 Speaker 1: big passion project and remains one of my great passions 1060 01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:34,000 Speaker 1: to today. Um. Same thing with O. M. D. And 1061 01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:36,480 Speaker 1: same thing with you Be forty, who had massive success 1062 01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:42,160 Speaker 1: with Red Red Wine. And I was young and unsophisticated, 1063 01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:47,840 Speaker 1: and I didn't realize that, uh, I wasn't working for 1064 01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:52,640 Speaker 1: the artist, right I because Virgin was the most artist 1065 01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:56,400 Speaker 1: friendly record company. I honestly thought that I was working 1066 01:02:56,440 --> 01:03:00,840 Speaker 1: for the artist, not for the for someone else. And um, 1067 01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:04,160 Speaker 1: what happened was that they rewarded my success at the 1068 01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:07,680 Speaker 1: label by allowing me to be a part of signing 1069 01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:11,280 Speaker 1: one of the most wonderful Canadian artists of all time, 1070 01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:14,520 Speaker 1: someone that I would still rank even though she's never 1071 01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:18,560 Speaker 1: had the career that she deserved, alongside Neil Young and 1072 01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:22,120 Speaker 1: Joni Mitchell and Robbie Robertson and Leonard cone Is you 1073 01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:27,960 Speaker 1: know in the Weekend and Drake is Canada's greatest products. Um. 1074 01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:31,240 Speaker 1: It was a girl called Mary Margaret O'Hara, and she 1075 01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:35,800 Speaker 1: was Catherine O'Hara's little sister, and she was unbelievably special. 1076 01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:41,320 Speaker 1: And uh, you know, we got Andy Partridge from XTC 1077 01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:45,960 Speaker 1: to agree to make her record. And even though Andy 1078 01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:50,640 Speaker 1: was a wonderful artist in the form of XTC, he 1079 01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:54,240 Speaker 1: wasn't a wonderful producer, and he wasn't someone that was 1080 01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:58,640 Speaker 1: prepared to recognize that in the producer's role, that his 1081 01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:02,280 Speaker 1: job was to be there to serve Mary Margaret and 1082 01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:04,720 Speaker 1: to help her make the best record that she wanted 1083 01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:08,320 Speaker 1: to make possible. So there were all kinds of problems 1084 01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:11,640 Speaker 1: from the get go in the making of that record. 1085 01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:14,440 Speaker 1: And even though the record eventually came out three or 1086 01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:16,920 Speaker 1: four years later as a record called Miss America and 1087 01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:19,320 Speaker 1: won a lot of awards and was the album of 1088 01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:22,800 Speaker 1: the Year, the actual making of the record was a 1089 01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:27,400 Speaker 1: very very painful experience. And I recognized at that point 1090 01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:30,600 Speaker 1: that for the first time, suddenly the light bulb went off, 1091 01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:34,160 Speaker 1: and I found myself in a position where I wanted 1092 01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:36,880 Speaker 1: to be on Mary's side rather than on the record 1093 01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:41,240 Speaker 1: company's side. And at that point I became a manager, 1094 01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:45,840 Speaker 1: and uh, they were probably gonna fire me anyways, because 1095 01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:48,800 Speaker 1: it was very clear that I was on on on 1096 01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:52,480 Speaker 1: on Mary's side and the company had new leadership, and 1097 01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:56,720 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, probably wasn't gonna work out. But 1098 01:04:56,800 --> 01:05:00,960 Speaker 1: I basically went to two guys in and that I 1099 01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:03,480 Speaker 1: had a relationship with a guy called Rod Smallwood who 1100 01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:05,640 Speaker 1: you know, and a guy called Andy Taylor, who you know. 1101 01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:08,840 Speaker 1: And I said, listen, I've had this epiphany. I'm not 1102 01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:10,960 Speaker 1: supposed to work for a record company. I'm supposed to 1103 01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:13,200 Speaker 1: work for the artist. I'm supposed to be a manager. 1104 01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:16,440 Speaker 1: And Rod and Andy said, you're right, and you know, 1105 01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:19,440 Speaker 1: you should come in with us. They were both fifteen 1106 01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:23,479 Speaker 1: years older than I was, and they were looking. Yeah, 1107 01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:26,760 Speaker 1: I worked at Sanctuary of course in the eighties, very 1108 01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:29,880 Speaker 1: different the one you worked for. But how did you 1109 01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:34,240 Speaker 1: know Rodd Andy Andy to throw in with them? Because 1110 01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:37,120 Speaker 1: I was a fan of Iron Maidens, and I was 1111 01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:41,960 Speaker 1: particularly a fan of the way that Rod acted on 1112 01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:46,200 Speaker 1: behalf of Iron Maiden and protected the band. And I 1113 01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:50,160 Speaker 1: knew that, you know that that he was one a 1114 01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:55,120 Speaker 1: role model that uh, you know, you could certainly do 1115 01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:58,280 Speaker 1: a lot worse than too. And you know the great 1116 01:05:58,280 --> 01:06:01,600 Speaker 1: thing about these two guys, you know, I'm you already 1117 01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:05,200 Speaker 1: know this, but I'll tell it for everyone else that 1118 01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:08,640 Speaker 1: doesn't is that you know, they were best friends. But 1119 01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:11,360 Speaker 1: they couldn't be more different from each other. Right, one 1120 01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:15,160 Speaker 1: of them was completely business the other was completely creative. 1121 01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:18,440 Speaker 1: One of them hated sports, the other one loved sports. 1122 01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:20,800 Speaker 1: The only thing that they had in common was that 1123 01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:25,480 Speaker 1: they loved drinking, right, and they loved Iron Maiden, and uh, 1124 01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:28,520 Speaker 1: I became the bastard offspring of the two of them. I. 1125 01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:31,840 Speaker 1: I took what Andy knew about business and I absorbed 1126 01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:36,280 Speaker 1: it all. I took what Rod knew about integrity and 1127 01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:41,959 Speaker 1: about creativity and you know, protecting people in fairness, and 1128 01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:44,840 Speaker 1: I absorbed all of that as well. And I became, 1129 01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:48,760 Speaker 1: as I said, I'm very proud to be the bastard 1130 01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:51,400 Speaker 1: offspring of of of the two of them. And I've 1131 01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:56,200 Speaker 1: certainly built a career on the back of lessons that 1132 01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:59,160 Speaker 1: they taught me. And there was another guy that was very, 1133 01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:02,960 Speaker 1: very important in this even before Rod Nandy, and that 1134 01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:06,840 Speaker 1: was a guy called Bruce Finley from Edinburgh in Scotland 1135 01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:12,080 Speaker 1: who managed Simple Minds. And this guy very very similarly 1136 01:07:12,120 --> 01:07:15,800 Speaker 1: to Rod Smallwood. He understood that your job was to 1137 01:07:16,120 --> 01:07:19,880 Speaker 1: go out and create as much enthusiasm for your artists 1138 01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:23,720 Speaker 1: music as possible and get the troops on your side 1139 01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:26,000 Speaker 1: and get them working, and get them in love with 1140 01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:28,560 Speaker 1: the band your band as much as you're in love 1141 01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:31,560 Speaker 1: with your band. And he taught me a tremendous amount 1142 01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:35,200 Speaker 1: as well. And those those three guys, along with Elliott Roberts, 1143 01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:38,200 Speaker 1: are are you know, the people that I consider to 1144 01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:42,959 Speaker 1: be my mentors. Okay, a couple of questions here, Hey, 1145 01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:46,960 Speaker 1: what year did you start working for Sanctuary be the 1146 01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:49,920 Speaker 1: company ultimately goes public, can you tell us the insight 1147 01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:52,680 Speaker 1: and how that happened and see how did you essentially 1148 01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:57,960 Speaker 1: end up running it? Sure? So, so the the uh, 1149 01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:04,000 Speaker 1: this is probably eighty six and probably the better part 1150 01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:08,680 Speaker 1: of of UM five or six years later, you know, 1151 01:08:10,320 --> 01:08:13,880 Speaker 1: were iron Maidens Management Company right when the when the 1152 01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:18,439 Speaker 1: company ends in two thousand and six or so, we're 1153 01:08:18,439 --> 01:08:22,240 Speaker 1: still iron Maidens Management Company, but we go from being 1154 01:08:22,280 --> 01:08:26,439 Speaker 1: iron Maidens Management Company to eventually being out John's management 1155 01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:31,280 Speaker 1: company and Guns and Roses management company, Beyonce's management company, 1156 01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:35,240 Speaker 1: with me driving all of those artists. UM. And the 1157 01:08:35,280 --> 01:08:39,080 Speaker 1: way that it happened was that we recognized in the 1158 01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:45,320 Speaker 1: early nineties, UM, when Uh Polli Graham became a company 1159 01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:50,880 Speaker 1: called p l G. That was the first real consolidation 1160 01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:55,840 Speaker 1: of a major record company where they went from effectively 1161 01:08:55,880 --> 01:08:59,640 Speaker 1: having four companies to basically having four A and R 1162 01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:03,679 Speaker 1: sent ters with a common marketing department and a common 1163 01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:08,040 Speaker 1: promotion department. That this was going to disenfranchise many artists 1164 01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:11,000 Speaker 1: because you know, if you were one of the artists 1165 01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:13,920 Speaker 1: that was selling ten million records around the world, you 1166 01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:16,920 Speaker 1: were going to get a lot of attention because of that. 1167 01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:19,000 Speaker 1: But if you were an artist that was going to 1168 01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:21,720 Speaker 1: sell a million records around the world, that was no 1169 01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:26,160 Speaker 1: longer interesting, believe it or not, you know, knowing what 1170 01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:28,479 Speaker 1: we know about what happened between two thousand and one 1171 01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:31,200 Speaker 1: and two thousand and sixteen, there's a point in the 1172 01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:33,840 Speaker 1: nineties where being able to sell a million copies around 1173 01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:36,680 Speaker 1: the world is not interesting to the major record companies. 1174 01:09:37,200 --> 01:09:39,680 Speaker 1: And we knew that this was going to disenfranchise a 1175 01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:42,960 Speaker 1: lot of artists, and it would particularly disenfranchise a lot 1176 01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:45,479 Speaker 1: of artists in the hard rock world. That that that 1177 01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:48,160 Speaker 1: we had a lot of expertise in, whether that was 1178 01:09:48,200 --> 01:09:51,040 Speaker 1: a Mega Death or a Slayer or whoever it might be. 1179 01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:54,360 Speaker 1: And we wanted to be prepared to be able to 1180 01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:58,400 Speaker 1: service those artists better than the big companies. So, you know, 1181 01:09:58,479 --> 01:10:02,320 Speaker 1: we created an independ the record company that became the 1182 01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:05,360 Speaker 1: biggest independent record company in the world and that worked 1183 01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:10,920 Speaker 1: with everyone from you know Morrissey to Megadeth to you 1184 01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:15,160 Speaker 1: know Ossy and and and Osborne and Kelly Osborne and 1185 01:10:15,479 --> 01:10:18,519 Speaker 1: many many others um and became very much best in 1186 01:10:18,600 --> 01:10:21,760 Speaker 1: class for its period. We had the biggest booking agency 1187 01:10:21,960 --> 01:10:26,799 Speaker 1: outside of North America that was Helter Skelter that booked 1188 01:10:26,840 --> 01:10:30,400 Speaker 1: everyone from from Metallica through to a C d C 1189 01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:33,479 Speaker 1: as well as Iron Maiden. And the idea was we 1190 01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:39,040 Speaker 1: built a real three sixty company, Bravado Merchandizing that you know, 1191 01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:43,000 Speaker 1: merchandised everyone from the Spice Girls to the Red Hot 1192 01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:47,040 Speaker 1: Chili Peppers to Iron Maiden. Um. You know, we built 1193 01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:51,000 Speaker 1: a company that could provide services to all of these 1194 01:10:51,000 --> 01:10:54,600 Speaker 1: wonderful artists on a three hundred and sixty degree basis. 1195 01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:59,080 Speaker 1: But my vision of three sixty was very, very different 1196 01:10:59,240 --> 01:11:03,680 Speaker 1: from the modern record companies version of three sixty. My 1197 01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:05,920 Speaker 1: version of three sixty was, look, we're going to make 1198 01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:09,760 Speaker 1: a capital investment in this artist. In order to get 1199 01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:12,360 Speaker 1: that capital investment back, we need to have as many 1200 01:11:12,400 --> 01:11:16,599 Speaker 1: income streams as possible. But within each of those income streams, 1201 01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:20,040 Speaker 1: we're going to give the artist the best deal possible 1202 01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:22,439 Speaker 1: and will be based on what the market is being 1203 01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:26,080 Speaker 1: is prepared to pay for that artist. And the company, 1204 01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:28,759 Speaker 1: as you know, was wildly successful for a long period 1205 01:11:28,760 --> 01:11:32,760 Speaker 1: of time. It went public and then you know what 1206 01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:36,080 Speaker 1: happened was that as you get from two thousand and 1207 01:11:36,120 --> 01:11:40,639 Speaker 1: five into two thousand and six, the company was the 1208 01:11:40,680 --> 01:11:45,320 Speaker 1: first major company to feel the effect of the bottom 1209 01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:49,160 Speaker 1: falling out of the record business because people were now 1210 01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:53,800 Speaker 1: able to download their music for free illegally rather than 1211 01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:58,920 Speaker 1: to pay for it. And we were too big, um, 1212 01:11:58,960 --> 01:12:00,960 Speaker 1: you know, we were in that period of time where 1213 01:12:01,080 --> 01:12:04,479 Speaker 1: we weren't small enough to be able to make changes quickly, 1214 01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:09,639 Speaker 1: and the effect on the company was disastrous. And also 1215 01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:13,000 Speaker 1: the company didn't have the level of sophistication that it 1216 01:12:13,040 --> 01:12:15,960 Speaker 1: should have with the stock market and its dealings. With 1217 01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:19,840 Speaker 1: the stock market, and effectively what happened was that, you know, 1218 01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:25,080 Speaker 1: after seven years of year on year growth, instead of 1219 01:12:25,120 --> 01:12:28,120 Speaker 1: the company going to the stock market and saying, look, 1220 01:12:28,160 --> 01:12:31,240 Speaker 1: that type of growth isn't possible right now, illegal downloading 1221 01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:34,240 Speaker 1: is killing the music business. But we've got these amazing 1222 01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:37,280 Speaker 1: artists like Elton John and Beyonce and Guns and Roses 1223 01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:41,080 Speaker 1: and Morrissey and many many others, UM, and what you 1224 01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:42,599 Speaker 1: need to do is you need to let us batten 1225 01:12:42,640 --> 01:12:45,400 Speaker 1: down the hatches and get to a point where we 1226 01:12:45,520 --> 01:12:48,120 Speaker 1: ride this out and then we'll be back for you. 1227 01:12:48,479 --> 01:12:52,360 Speaker 1: And instead, more growth was promised and the company wasn't 1228 01:12:52,360 --> 01:12:54,880 Speaker 1: able to sustain itself, so it was sold to Universal. 1229 01:12:55,640 --> 01:13:01,680 Speaker 1: That becomes a very very important UH lesson learned in 1230 01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:07,400 Speaker 1: the UH way that then Hypnosis gets launched. Because when 1231 01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:12,080 Speaker 1: I launched Hypnosis, I ensured that I had a level 1232 01:13:12,080 --> 01:13:15,599 Speaker 1: of sophistication and a level of advice at the very 1233 01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:20,720 Speaker 1: very highest level UM from the financial community. UM that 1234 01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:23,760 Speaker 1: would ensure that I would never ever be in a 1235 01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:28,719 Speaker 1: position where shareholders were let down again. So it's something 1236 01:13:28,720 --> 01:13:31,599 Speaker 1: that I had to be very very honest about in 1237 01:13:31,720 --> 01:13:34,840 Speaker 1: the sense that that UM I was never gonna try 1238 01:13:34,840 --> 01:13:38,080 Speaker 1: and hide the fact that Sanctuary didn't succeed, even though 1239 01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:41,559 Speaker 1: the idea was wonderful. UM. But I also had to 1240 01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:44,439 Speaker 1: make sure that I had the right people around me, um, 1241 01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:49,160 Speaker 1: in order to gain the trust of the financial community. Okay, 1242 01:13:49,160 --> 01:13:54,400 Speaker 1: so what do you do from two thousand six to hypnosis? UM? 1243 01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:59,480 Speaker 1: I pretend that everything is perfect, but really I'm terribly depressed. 1244 01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:03,200 Speaker 1: And while I continue to manage lots of wonderful artists 1245 01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:06,599 Speaker 1: like Morrissey and John Stone and Diane Warren and Justin 1246 01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:09,360 Speaker 1: Tranter and The Dream and and and you know, lots 1247 01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:14,680 Speaker 1: of incredible people, Macy Gray, I'm probably you know, clinically depressed, 1248 01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:19,479 Speaker 1: and I'm trying to keep my chin up and trying to, uh, 1249 01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:24,000 Speaker 1: you know, find myself again, because you know, Sanctuary was 1250 01:14:24,040 --> 01:14:30,000 Speaker 1: a twenty one one year experience that uh was really about, 1251 01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:33,880 Speaker 1: you know, I think doing something important, um, and then 1252 01:14:33,920 --> 01:14:37,920 Speaker 1: it didn't work. And when that happens, of course, UM, 1253 01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:40,280 Speaker 1: you know, not only do you feel like a failure, 1254 01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:44,600 Speaker 1: but probably wrongly, you also assume that the rest of 1255 01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:48,160 Speaker 1: the world sees you as a failure as well. And 1256 01:14:47,880 --> 01:14:50,760 Speaker 1: I found myself talking to people all the time, and 1257 01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:53,559 Speaker 1: people would would you know, say nice things and do 1258 01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:56,439 Speaker 1: nice things. But it didn't feel that way to me. 1259 01:14:56,720 --> 01:15:00,280 Speaker 1: To me, it felt like it was a massive failure. UM. 1260 01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:02,479 Speaker 1: So it took me a long time to come out 1261 01:15:02,479 --> 01:15:04,960 Speaker 1: of that. And even though I think that you know, 1262 01:15:05,040 --> 01:15:09,200 Speaker 1: my friends and my family and my contemporaries didn't ever 1263 01:15:09,320 --> 01:15:12,760 Speaker 1: really see it, my artists never really saw it. I 1264 01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:15,840 Speaker 1: knew it. I knew that I was fighting, um, you know, 1265 01:15:16,040 --> 01:15:20,160 Speaker 1: this this feeling inside of me on a daily basis. 1266 01:15:20,800 --> 01:15:23,439 Speaker 1: And it just took me, you know, the minute that 1267 01:15:23,439 --> 01:15:27,799 Speaker 1: that I hatched the plan for hypnosis and I knew 1268 01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:31,439 Speaker 1: exactly what it was. Um, I came out of that 1269 01:15:31,640 --> 01:15:35,200 Speaker 1: because then I had clarity on what I could do 1270 01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:40,040 Speaker 1: to take this previous failure and turn it into not 1271 01:15:40,320 --> 01:15:44,280 Speaker 1: a victory for myself, but a victory for the songwriting community. 1272 01:15:45,080 --> 01:15:47,960 Speaker 1: Because that's the you know, the idea of hypnosis was 1273 01:15:48,040 --> 01:15:52,320 Speaker 1: born out of managing Diane Warren, managing Justin Tranter, managing 1274 01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:55,880 Speaker 1: the Dream and realizing that these people were delivering massive 1275 01:15:55,920 --> 01:16:00,679 Speaker 1: hit songs for artists and not getting paid properly. And 1276 01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:06,760 Speaker 1: what I saw was that UM streaming was and you know, 1277 01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:10,479 Speaker 1: Daniel Eck and Martin Lawrence and at Spotify can attest 1278 01:16:10,479 --> 01:16:13,559 Speaker 1: to this. It was very clear to me the first 1279 01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:16,560 Speaker 1: time I ever saw Spotify that not only was it 1280 01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:19,559 Speaker 1: going to be wildly successful, but the effect that it 1281 01:16:19,640 --> 01:16:22,679 Speaker 1: was going to have was to take music from being 1282 01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:27,240 Speaker 1: a discretionary or luxury purchase and turn it into a utility. 1283 01:16:27,320 --> 01:16:30,519 Speaker 1: Because that ten dollar price point, that ability to have 1284 01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:35,040 Speaker 1: access to at that point almost everything to today pretty 1285 01:16:35,120 --> 01:16:38,240 Speaker 1: much everything, um, you know, was going to be appealing 1286 01:16:38,360 --> 01:16:42,240 Speaker 1: enough to the passive consumer to make them want to 1287 01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:44,040 Speaker 1: pay for music. So, you know, if you look at 1288 01:16:44,040 --> 01:16:49,440 Speaker 1: where we are today, you know, the benchmark for extraordinary 1289 01:16:49,479 --> 01:16:53,439 Speaker 1: success in our business used to be the platinum record, 1290 01:16:53,640 --> 01:16:57,040 Speaker 1: you know, million copies in a country like the United 1291 01:16:57,080 --> 01:17:01,040 Speaker 1: States that has three sixty million people in it. Today, 1292 01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:03,400 Speaker 1: you know that one in three sixty you know, tells 1293 01:17:03,439 --> 01:17:05,599 Speaker 1: you that the average person might love music, but they 1294 01:17:05,600 --> 01:17:07,720 Speaker 1: didn't love music enough to put their hand in their 1295 01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:11,160 Speaker 1: pocket and pull out money to pay for it. Today, 1296 01:17:11,320 --> 01:17:14,280 Speaker 1: we have a hundred million homes in the United States 1297 01:17:14,680 --> 01:17:18,000 Speaker 1: that are paying for a paid music streaming subscription. Right 1298 01:17:18,080 --> 01:17:21,040 Speaker 1: so we've gone from one in three hundred and sixty 1299 01:17:21,040 --> 01:17:24,280 Speaker 1: people paying for music to one in three point six 1300 01:17:24,360 --> 01:17:28,040 Speaker 1: people paying for music. That's why you're seeing the sort 1301 01:17:28,040 --> 01:17:31,000 Speaker 1: of money flooding into this business that you're seeing is 1302 01:17:31,040 --> 01:17:34,920 Speaker 1: because music has gone from being this luxury purchase to 1303 01:17:35,040 --> 01:17:38,519 Speaker 1: now very much being a utility purchase. That was very 1304 01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:43,400 Speaker 1: clear to me. Alongside that, I knew that these great 1305 01:17:43,439 --> 01:17:47,000 Speaker 1: songs that these songwriters wrote that when they hit they 1306 01:17:47,000 --> 01:17:49,920 Speaker 1: became a part of the fabric of society. And when 1307 01:17:49,920 --> 01:17:52,639 Speaker 1: they become a part of the fabric of society, they 1308 01:17:52,680 --> 01:17:56,240 Speaker 1: start to have predictable, reliable income, and that that would 1309 01:17:56,320 --> 01:17:59,280 Speaker 1: make them investible because those are the same reasons why 1310 01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:09,080 Speaker 1: we look at gold and oil is that predictability and reliability. Okay, 1311 01:18:09,160 --> 01:18:11,799 Speaker 1: so you said that you had a hundred and seventy 1312 01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:18,559 Speaker 1: seven meetings. What transpired to build hypnosis? So out of 1313 01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:21,880 Speaker 1: those hundred and seventy seven meetings, which were really about 1314 01:18:22,120 --> 01:18:26,600 Speaker 1: educating the investment community, as I say, about this predictability 1315 01:18:26,600 --> 01:18:29,800 Speaker 1: and reliability of these income streams, and also the fact 1316 01:18:29,880 --> 01:18:32,640 Speaker 1: that the income streams were uncorrelated. Right if you know, 1317 01:18:32,720 --> 01:18:36,360 Speaker 1: I compare them to golden oil, and you know, if 1318 01:18:36,479 --> 01:18:39,160 Speaker 1: if the if political upheaval, if there's some sort of 1319 01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:43,160 Speaker 1: political upheaval tomorrow, the price of golden oil will be affected, 1320 01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:46,559 Speaker 1: but the price of songs and the revenues associated with 1321 01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:50,200 Speaker 1: songs aren't affected because if people are living their best lives, 1322 01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:53,639 Speaker 1: they're doing it to a soundtrack of music. Equally well, 1323 01:18:53,720 --> 01:18:56,639 Speaker 1: if they're experiencing the sort of challenges that we've experienced 1324 01:18:56,640 --> 01:18:59,719 Speaker 1: over the last fourteen or fifteen months, you're taking comfort 1325 01:18:59,760 --> 01:19:04,800 Speaker 1: and escaping with music. So this uncorrelated aspect of the 1326 01:19:04,840 --> 01:19:08,840 Speaker 1: revenues is something that investors have a real appetite for 1327 01:19:09,040 --> 01:19:12,480 Speaker 1: because they understand that in a world of Donald Trump's 1328 01:19:12,520 --> 01:19:15,120 Speaker 1: and you know, all the craziness that that's happening all 1329 01:19:15,120 --> 01:19:18,920 Speaker 1: over the world, that having uncorrelated assets, at least in 1330 01:19:19,000 --> 01:19:21,920 Speaker 1: part of their portfolio is very important. So it took 1331 01:19:21,920 --> 01:19:24,920 Speaker 1: about a year and a half to do these hundred 1332 01:19:24,920 --> 01:19:29,719 Speaker 1: and seventy seven meetings, and eight of them said to me, Um, 1333 01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:33,800 Speaker 1: don't ever darken our doorstep again. It doesn't matter how 1334 01:19:33,800 --> 01:19:37,679 Speaker 1: successful you make this idea. Our investors will never be 1335 01:19:37,920 --> 01:19:39,599 Speaker 1: you know, the people that give us money will never 1336 01:19:39,680 --> 01:19:43,759 Speaker 1: be comfortable with this. Um. Thirty eight of them said, 1337 01:19:44,439 --> 01:19:47,280 Speaker 1: you know, we're in. We want to do this, and 1338 01:19:47,320 --> 01:19:51,280 Speaker 1: they backed me with two hundred million pounds and the 1339 01:19:51,320 --> 01:19:55,160 Speaker 1: other remaining hundred and thirty odd all said listen, you know, 1340 01:19:55,280 --> 01:19:58,760 Speaker 1: we think what you're doing is fascinating and uh, we 1341 01:19:58,880 --> 01:20:01,080 Speaker 1: love it, but we can't be your guinea pigs. So 1342 01:20:01,200 --> 01:20:03,960 Speaker 1: you go away and make this successful and then you 1343 01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:06,000 Speaker 1: come back and see us. Which is how we've gone 1344 01:20:06,040 --> 01:20:09,040 Speaker 1: from being a two hundred million pound company to being, 1345 01:20:09,479 --> 01:20:11,360 Speaker 1: as you say, at two point to two point three 1346 01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:15,400 Speaker 1: billion dollar company. Um, because we went back to every 1347 01:20:15,439 --> 01:20:19,000 Speaker 1: one of those hundred thirty one investors that said we 1348 01:20:19,040 --> 01:20:21,559 Speaker 1: don't want to be your guinea pig, and we've also 1349 01:20:21,920 --> 01:20:24,600 Speaker 1: now gone to know another three d or so on 1350 01:20:24,680 --> 01:20:26,720 Speaker 1: top of that. So are about four hundred nine or 1351 01:20:26,880 --> 01:20:30,240 Speaker 1: odd investors that make up the two point two billion 1352 01:20:30,280 --> 01:20:33,679 Speaker 1: dollars that's in hypnosis, and that's allowed us to buy 1353 01:20:33,800 --> 01:20:38,000 Speaker 1: sixty three thousand of the most wonderful songs in the world. Okay, 1354 01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:41,800 Speaker 1: why is the company based in Guernsey. It's based in 1355 01:20:41,840 --> 01:20:45,000 Speaker 1: Guernsey for tax reasons, um. And that's not you know, 1356 01:20:45,040 --> 01:20:49,200 Speaker 1: Guernsey is a British Channel island, so it's not tax avoidance. 1357 01:20:49,640 --> 01:20:53,320 Speaker 1: But you know, for example, we get the vast majority 1358 01:20:53,560 --> 01:20:56,519 Speaker 1: of our money, our earnings comes from the United States. 1359 01:20:57,000 --> 01:21:00,360 Speaker 1: Right if we were based on the mainland in UK 1360 01:21:01,240 --> 01:21:05,839 Speaker 1: that those US earnings would be subject to withholding tax. 1361 01:21:06,280 --> 01:21:09,800 Speaker 1: By being based in Guernsey, they are not subject to 1362 01:21:10,080 --> 01:21:15,000 Speaker 1: withholding tax. Does that mean there are people actually in Guernsey. 1363 01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:22,200 Speaker 1: Our administrators and our administrator and administrator in this instance 1364 01:21:22,280 --> 01:21:26,200 Speaker 1: is very different to our publishing administrator. Our administrator and 1365 01:21:26,280 --> 01:21:29,599 Speaker 1: this instances are the people that deal with the money 1366 01:21:29,640 --> 01:21:33,439 Speaker 1: on Hypnosis is part. So I I never touch Hypnosis money. 1367 01:21:33,560 --> 01:21:38,200 Speaker 1: Hypnosis money is only ever touched by our administrators. They 1368 01:21:38,240 --> 01:21:40,640 Speaker 1: make all the payments on our behalf, They collect all 1369 01:21:40,680 --> 01:21:43,400 Speaker 1: the moneys on our behalf. You know, everything gets paid 1370 01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:48,519 Speaker 1: through into two our Guernsey bank accounts. So yeah, we 1371 01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:51,200 Speaker 1: have a small team of people in Guernsey, but the 1372 01:21:51,240 --> 01:21:54,200 Speaker 1: majority of our people are in London and we have 1373 01:21:54,280 --> 01:21:59,479 Speaker 1: eighty three people between London and Los Angeles. Okay, you 1374 01:21:59,560 --> 01:22:03,080 Speaker 1: have a unique structure and I'll let you explain it 1375 01:22:03,080 --> 01:22:05,160 Speaker 1: because I don't want to make a mistake. Where there 1376 01:22:05,280 --> 01:22:09,479 Speaker 1: is the company Hypnosis that owns the asset, yet you 1377 01:22:09,600 --> 01:22:15,840 Speaker 1: work for a different company that provide management services, Why 1378 01:22:16,160 --> 01:22:20,000 Speaker 1: and how does that work? So this so, this is 1379 01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:23,720 Speaker 1: what's known as an investment trust and it's a classic 1380 01:22:23,920 --> 01:22:28,200 Speaker 1: construct on the London stock market. Right. So so there 1381 01:22:28,200 --> 01:22:31,720 Speaker 1: are many many investment trusts. The vast majority of the 1382 01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:35,519 Speaker 1: companies in in in the foot see to fifty our 1383 01:22:35,600 --> 01:22:41,160 Speaker 1: investment trusts. And this construct of having a vehicle that 1384 01:22:41,280 --> 01:22:45,840 Speaker 1: owns the assets and that has no liabilities beyond the 1385 01:22:45,880 --> 01:22:49,720 Speaker 1: ownership of those assets is a very very allows for 1386 01:22:49,760 --> 01:22:52,840 Speaker 1: a very very clean company. And then you have an 1387 01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:57,920 Speaker 1: investment advisor that then manages those assets. So I'm the 1388 01:22:58,000 --> 01:23:02,479 Speaker 1: founder of both companies. I'm founder of the parent company 1389 01:23:02,520 --> 01:23:05,320 Speaker 1: if you like, or the main company, which is the 1390 01:23:05,360 --> 01:23:10,360 Speaker 1: asset holder, Hypnosis Songs Fundlimited. I'm also the founder of 1391 01:23:10,880 --> 01:23:14,439 Speaker 1: the Family Music which is the company that manages those 1392 01:23:14,439 --> 01:23:18,360 Speaker 1: assets and that buys those assets on the behalf of 1393 01:23:18,360 --> 01:23:20,840 Speaker 1: of of of the fund. And as I say, this 1394 01:23:20,960 --> 01:23:26,439 Speaker 1: is a classic English stock market construct. Um. And we've gone, 1395 01:23:26,640 --> 01:23:30,479 Speaker 1: you know, the three years plus that we've been doing this, 1396 01:23:30,960 --> 01:23:34,320 Speaker 1: we've gone from being a normal listing on the London 1397 01:23:34,400 --> 01:23:37,639 Speaker 1: stock market to a year later, on the back of success, 1398 01:23:37,680 --> 01:23:41,120 Speaker 1: being a premier listing, and then fourteen months ago, fifteen 1399 01:23:41,120 --> 01:23:43,800 Speaker 1: months ago we became a foot see two fifty company. 1400 01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:46,439 Speaker 1: We're one of the biggest companies on the London stock 1401 01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:50,519 Speaker 1: market and we're the number twenty three biggest yielder on 1402 01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:53,639 Speaker 1: the London stock Market, meaning that they're only twenty two 1403 01:23:53,640 --> 01:23:57,440 Speaker 1: companies that are paying a bigger dividend to their investors 1404 01:23:57,520 --> 01:24:01,400 Speaker 1: than we are. Okay, there was some scuttle but about 1405 01:24:01,479 --> 01:24:06,800 Speaker 1: this recently. Can you explain how the management company, the 1406 01:24:06,920 --> 01:24:10,439 Speaker 1: family operation gets paid and how you get paid as 1407 01:24:10,439 --> 01:24:13,800 Speaker 1: opposed to the investor, because there were some analysts and 1408 01:24:13,920 --> 01:24:19,439 Speaker 1: investors were kicking around raising questions about this. Yeah, there's 1409 01:24:19,560 --> 01:24:24,640 Speaker 1: there were there were some newspaper reports that, um, you know, 1410 01:24:24,720 --> 01:24:29,520 Speaker 1: we're basically making the point that the more I invest 1411 01:24:30,400 --> 01:24:33,360 Speaker 1: and the more money I raise, the more the family 1412 01:24:33,479 --> 01:24:36,559 Speaker 1: music gets paid. Right. But of course, and and that's 1413 01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:39,040 Speaker 1: a fair statement to make. It's a it's an accurate 1414 01:24:39,080 --> 01:24:42,320 Speaker 1: statement to make. We get paid on the back of 1415 01:24:42,680 --> 01:24:45,519 Speaker 1: the money that we raise and the money that we invest. 1416 01:24:45,640 --> 01:24:50,160 Speaker 1: So we you know, on the first five sorry, first 1417 01:24:50,160 --> 01:24:53,000 Speaker 1: two fifty million pounds that we raised we got, we 1418 01:24:53,040 --> 01:24:55,759 Speaker 1: get paid one percent of that as a management fee. 1419 01:24:56,040 --> 01:24:58,240 Speaker 1: On the next two d fifty million pounds we get 1420 01:24:58,240 --> 01:25:01,120 Speaker 1: paid point nine percent. This is all a matter of 1421 01:25:01,120 --> 01:25:04,680 Speaker 1: public records, so I don't mind mind disclosing this. And 1422 01:25:04,720 --> 01:25:07,920 Speaker 1: then on on everything beyond that first five million pounds 1423 01:25:07,920 --> 01:25:10,800 Speaker 1: we then get paid point eight percent. So the more 1424 01:25:10,840 --> 01:25:13,400 Speaker 1: money we raise and the more money we invest, the 1425 01:25:13,439 --> 01:25:17,040 Speaker 1: more we get paid. So there are are we're a 1426 01:25:17,040 --> 01:25:20,400 Speaker 1: couple of newspaper reports that we're making that point and 1427 01:25:20,439 --> 01:25:24,519 Speaker 1: that we're making that point as as perhaps being the 1428 01:25:24,560 --> 01:25:28,320 Speaker 1: motive of why we raise so much money and why 1429 01:25:28,400 --> 01:25:32,040 Speaker 1: we invest so much money. And what they were missing, 1430 01:25:32,280 --> 01:25:35,880 Speaker 1: of course, was that every one of our investors has 1431 01:25:35,920 --> 01:25:39,320 Speaker 1: backed us with that money for the last three years, 1432 01:25:39,360 --> 01:25:42,160 Speaker 1: as to say, growing it from the initial two million 1433 01:25:42,200 --> 01:25:44,760 Speaker 1: pounds to now what is you know, one point seven 1434 01:25:44,840 --> 01:25:47,759 Speaker 1: one point eight billion pounds two point to two point 1435 01:25:47,800 --> 01:25:51,240 Speaker 1: three billion dollars um. And the reason why they've backed 1436 01:25:51,320 --> 01:25:54,840 Speaker 1: us is because part of the thesis from the get 1437 01:25:54,840 --> 01:25:58,840 Speaker 1: go was that there was a limited opportunity here to 1438 01:25:59,040 --> 01:26:03,120 Speaker 1: buy these assets. It's these great songs at attractive prices. 1439 01:26:03,720 --> 01:26:06,360 Speaker 1: I think that two years from now, three years from now, 1440 01:26:06,800 --> 01:26:09,240 Speaker 1: it won't be you know, you'll be buying these songs 1441 01:26:09,479 --> 01:26:14,320 Speaker 1: for um income, but you won't have the same exponential 1442 01:26:14,400 --> 01:26:17,599 Speaker 1: net asset value growth that you'll have based on what 1443 01:26:17,600 --> 01:26:19,960 Speaker 1: we've bought over the last two years and what will 1444 01:26:20,000 --> 01:26:23,760 Speaker 1: buy over the next two years um and there and 1445 01:26:23,800 --> 01:26:27,280 Speaker 1: all of our shareholders have understood that from the get go. 1446 01:26:27,680 --> 01:26:30,599 Speaker 1: It's been a part of those discussions from the get go, 1447 01:26:31,080 --> 01:26:33,519 Speaker 1: and it's why they continue to back us with with 1448 01:26:33,520 --> 01:26:37,320 Speaker 1: with each fundraise and allow us to continue to um 1449 01:26:37,800 --> 01:26:41,160 Speaker 1: uh invest in these great songs. Okay, So let's just 1450 01:26:41,320 --> 01:26:45,760 Speaker 1: understand there is him, there is hypnosis. It owns the songs. 1451 01:26:45,920 --> 01:26:50,360 Speaker 1: Who owns family? And how does family get paid? Yes, 1452 01:26:50,400 --> 01:26:53,679 Speaker 1: and let's just use round numbers. You raise a hundred million, 1453 01:26:54,080 --> 01:26:57,360 Speaker 1: you get one percent. That's a million dollars that goes 1454 01:26:57,400 --> 01:27:01,800 Speaker 1: to family. Is that distributed it? How do we who 1455 01:27:01,840 --> 01:27:07,080 Speaker 1: owns family? How you know? House family run? So I 1456 01:27:07,200 --> 01:27:09,840 Speaker 1: owned the family. I have some minor shareholders in it 1457 01:27:09,920 --> 01:27:13,160 Speaker 1: as well. And the family employs, as I say, the 1458 01:27:13,200 --> 01:27:16,120 Speaker 1: better part of eighty three people around the world with 1459 01:27:16,160 --> 01:27:20,400 Speaker 1: those fees. Right, So the fund has no expenses other 1460 01:27:20,479 --> 01:27:24,280 Speaker 1: than its legal fees and other than its brokers and 1461 01:27:24,360 --> 01:27:28,080 Speaker 1: professional advisors, one of which is the family. But the 1462 01:27:28,120 --> 01:27:32,320 Speaker 1: people those eighty three people that manage the fund around 1463 01:27:33,520 --> 01:27:36,400 Speaker 1: the manage the assets on behalf of the fund are 1464 01:27:36,439 --> 01:27:40,920 Speaker 1: paid for by the family. Okay, So now you raise 1465 01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:42,880 Speaker 1: on a million, you get a percentage that goes into 1466 01:27:42,880 --> 01:27:46,920 Speaker 1: the family. How much does the family make? What's the 1467 01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:52,280 Speaker 1: return to the family on regular income. Well, that's not 1468 01:27:52,400 --> 01:27:55,160 Speaker 1: a that isn't a matter of of of of of 1469 01:27:55,240 --> 01:27:57,280 Speaker 1: public income. But as as I say, you can do 1470 01:27:57,320 --> 01:28:00,559 Speaker 1: the sums. You know, we the family makes aximately ten 1471 01:28:00,560 --> 01:28:03,280 Speaker 1: million pounds a year, and out of that ten million 1472 01:28:03,320 --> 01:28:05,680 Speaker 1: pounds a year, it pays for offices, It pays for 1473 01:28:05,760 --> 01:28:09,960 Speaker 1: eighty three employees, It pays for the expenses of operating 1474 01:28:09,960 --> 01:28:12,759 Speaker 1: and managing these songs to the best of its ability. 1475 01:28:14,280 --> 01:28:18,000 Speaker 1: I guess what I'm asking. Let's assume I'm an investor. Okay, 1476 01:28:18,240 --> 01:28:21,639 Speaker 1: I know I'm paying you approximately one per cent on 1477 01:28:21,880 --> 01:28:28,599 Speaker 1: every hundred million. But since family is doing the work, 1478 01:28:28,680 --> 01:28:32,800 Speaker 1: so to speak, isn't there a raw percentage that I 1479 01:28:32,880 --> 01:28:35,720 Speaker 1: know that I will have to pay family every year? 1480 01:28:35,840 --> 01:28:38,639 Speaker 1: How does that work? Because an investor is gonna want 1481 01:28:38,640 --> 01:28:41,800 Speaker 1: to know. But all of that is spelled out, and 1482 01:28:41,840 --> 01:28:44,040 Speaker 1: we have a you know, one of the things about 1483 01:28:44,040 --> 01:28:46,559 Speaker 1: being a public company is that you have to have 1484 01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:49,760 Speaker 1: a prospectus. And the prospectus is a document that is 1485 01:28:49,840 --> 01:28:52,240 Speaker 1: a couple of hundred pages long, that is a legal 1486 01:28:52,320 --> 01:28:56,200 Speaker 1: document that literally spells out everything that there is to 1487 01:28:56,240 --> 01:28:59,720 Speaker 1: know from costs to you know, what the upside is, 1488 01:28:59,720 --> 01:29:03,120 Speaker 1: what the potential downside is, what the investment policy of 1489 01:29:03,160 --> 01:29:07,200 Speaker 1: the company is, what the borrowing policy of the company is. 1490 01:29:07,320 --> 01:29:11,960 Speaker 1: Literally every aspect of how we do business is spelled 1491 01:29:12,000 --> 01:29:17,280 Speaker 1: out in that two perspectives. And the perspectus is something 1492 01:29:17,320 --> 01:29:21,960 Speaker 1: that's updated on a yearly basis, and whatever changes are are, 1493 01:29:22,360 --> 01:29:26,040 Speaker 1: you know, to any of those policies goes into that document. 1494 01:29:26,320 --> 01:29:29,680 Speaker 1: So all of our shareholders are very very clear and 1495 01:29:29,840 --> 01:29:35,439 Speaker 1: very aware on a daily basis of exactly how we operate. Okay, 1496 01:29:35,479 --> 01:29:37,960 Speaker 1: so let me ask a different question. What is the 1497 01:29:38,040 --> 01:29:43,280 Speaker 1: present percentage? And who negotiates the change in the percentage? 1498 01:29:44,320 --> 01:29:48,040 Speaker 1: This is a better public record. Yeah, So the present 1499 01:29:48,040 --> 01:29:53,120 Speaker 1: percentages point eight percent of every penny raised, right, so 1500 01:29:53,760 --> 01:29:58,880 Speaker 1: you know, uh point zero eight percent, no point eight 1501 01:29:58,960 --> 01:30:03,120 Speaker 1: point eight of a per end of right, Um, so 1502 01:30:03,280 --> 01:30:06,240 Speaker 1: that is that's the current rate. Then we also have 1503 01:30:06,320 --> 01:30:10,240 Speaker 1: a performance fee. When that performance fee is ten percent 1504 01:30:10,720 --> 01:30:14,880 Speaker 1: over a ten percent hurdle, So that's something that you'd 1505 01:30:14,920 --> 01:30:17,680 Speaker 1: have to get your calculator out and and try and 1506 01:30:17,720 --> 01:30:20,040 Speaker 1: figure out what I think I think we underten it. 1507 01:30:20,400 --> 01:30:22,960 Speaker 1: But what you're saying is the performance fee is what 1508 01:30:23,120 --> 01:30:28,880 Speaker 1: family gets paid, the management fee, and potentially a manage 1509 01:30:28,920 --> 01:30:32,479 Speaker 1: the management fee is guaranteed, right, which is that how 1510 01:30:32,520 --> 01:30:35,639 Speaker 1: much is the percent? And that's the point eight percent. 1511 01:30:35,920 --> 01:30:38,840 Speaker 1: So you get paid not only when you not only 1512 01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:42,679 Speaker 1: when you raise it. You're getting paid point eight percent 1513 01:30:42,760 --> 01:30:49,320 Speaker 1: of the total fund every year. Correct. Okay, so you 1514 01:30:49,400 --> 01:30:54,640 Speaker 1: get the point eight then ten beyond ten percent of 1515 01:30:54,760 --> 01:31:00,479 Speaker 1: net also goes to family, correct. And that's so and 1516 01:31:00,479 --> 01:31:04,479 Speaker 1: and and on that. There's no guarantee because that's based 1517 01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:08,800 Speaker 1: on where the share prices for the entire month of March, 1518 01:31:08,880 --> 01:31:12,400 Speaker 1: which is the last month of of of our fiscal year. 1519 01:31:13,000 --> 01:31:16,599 Speaker 1: So depending on what the average weighted share prices during 1520 01:31:16,640 --> 01:31:19,519 Speaker 1: that entire month, we might make a performance fee. We 1521 01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:22,120 Speaker 1: might not. If we've raised money, we won't make a 1522 01:31:22,160 --> 01:31:24,559 Speaker 1: performance fee because when you raise money, the share price 1523 01:31:24,600 --> 01:31:27,880 Speaker 1: goes down because there are shares that are being offered 1524 01:31:27,920 --> 01:31:31,800 Speaker 1: at at at at a discount for people to come 1525 01:31:31,800 --> 01:31:35,920 Speaker 1: in and and and and invest more money. So, because 1526 01:31:35,960 --> 01:31:38,599 Speaker 1: of the fact that we've been so acquisitive um and 1527 01:31:38,640 --> 01:31:42,240 Speaker 1: because that's been the focus, the performance fee is is 1528 01:31:42,280 --> 01:31:44,439 Speaker 1: something that's been a very minor part of our world 1529 01:31:44,479 --> 01:31:48,040 Speaker 1: so far. Okay, So let's just go back for those 1530 01:31:48,080 --> 01:31:50,800 Speaker 1: you know and make it very basic. Let's assume, for 1531 01:31:50,800 --> 01:31:55,360 Speaker 1: the sake of round numbers, hypnosis generates a hundred million 1532 01:31:55,400 --> 01:32:00,479 Speaker 1: dollars in a year. That is not how family gets paid. 1533 01:32:01,200 --> 01:32:04,320 Speaker 1: Family gets paid the point eight family gets paid the 1534 01:32:04,360 --> 01:32:10,759 Speaker 1: point eight percent, and if you're doing well, the stock 1535 01:32:10,880 --> 01:32:13,519 Speaker 1: price will go up and then you'll get the ten 1536 01:32:13,600 --> 01:32:20,440 Speaker 1: percent beyond the ten percent. Correct. That is roughly accurate 1537 01:32:20,439 --> 01:32:24,679 Speaker 1: and simple terms. Okay, So if the stock price does 1538 01:32:24,760 --> 01:32:29,720 Speaker 1: not go up, family does not get paid beyond the 1539 01:32:29,800 --> 01:32:35,040 Speaker 1: point eight percent of total funds raised. Correct in order 1540 01:32:35,040 --> 01:32:36,519 Speaker 1: for us, in order for us to get paid a 1541 01:32:36,600 --> 01:32:42,120 Speaker 1: performance fee, we need to have the stock price out. Okay. 1542 01:32:42,200 --> 01:32:47,679 Speaker 1: So let's assume I you want to raise money. Are 1543 01:32:47,720 --> 01:32:50,639 Speaker 1: you raising you know, there's different ways. Is it all 1544 01:32:50,800 --> 01:32:53,360 Speaker 1: part of the same company. Is it a separate fund? 1545 01:32:53,400 --> 01:32:57,559 Speaker 1: How does that go when you raise additional funds? It's 1546 01:32:57,560 --> 01:33:00,120 Speaker 1: all part of the same company. There is no there 1547 01:33:00,160 --> 01:33:03,400 Speaker 1: is no fund one, fund two, fund three. It's all 1548 01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:06,759 Speaker 1: a public company. It's all all trades under the ticker 1549 01:33:06,800 --> 01:33:10,599 Speaker 1: of song S O n G, and it's all one company. Now, 1550 01:33:11,000 --> 01:33:15,800 Speaker 1: there are instances where you may without getting complicated, where 1551 01:33:15,840 --> 01:33:19,240 Speaker 1: you may raise money as a C share rather than 1552 01:33:19,280 --> 01:33:23,120 Speaker 1: an ordinary share, and then that C share, once it's 1553 01:33:23,120 --> 01:33:27,839 Speaker 1: fully invested, would then be merged into the ordinary shares. 1554 01:33:28,320 --> 01:33:32,160 Speaker 1: So that can happen at different times depending on on 1555 01:33:32,320 --> 01:33:35,879 Speaker 1: what the circumstances of the fundraise are. But in general, 1556 01:33:36,240 --> 01:33:38,400 Speaker 1: the way to the correct way to look at it 1557 01:33:38,439 --> 01:33:41,760 Speaker 1: is it's all one company. So let's assume, for the 1558 01:33:41,760 --> 01:33:44,360 Speaker 1: sake of discussion, you want to raise a hundred million. 1559 01:33:44,960 --> 01:33:48,040 Speaker 1: He who makes that decision, and b do the shareholders 1560 01:33:48,040 --> 01:33:52,719 Speaker 1: have to approve it? I make that decision, and then 1561 01:33:52,920 --> 01:33:57,080 Speaker 1: that in in a conjunction with my advisers, which are 1562 01:33:57,160 --> 01:34:00,320 Speaker 1: in general my brokers. And my brokers are JP Oregon, 1563 01:34:00,600 --> 01:34:03,840 Speaker 1: the Royal Bank of Canada, and an English company called 1564 01:34:04,000 --> 01:34:06,599 Speaker 1: N plus one Singer, which is the company that brought 1565 01:34:06,680 --> 01:34:09,840 Speaker 1: us to the stock market. And then I go out 1566 01:34:10,000 --> 01:34:13,280 Speaker 1: and I speak to all of our investors and they 1567 01:34:13,320 --> 01:34:15,240 Speaker 1: have a choice of how much they want to put in. 1568 01:34:15,320 --> 01:34:20,120 Speaker 1: So the the investors can't stop us from raising money. 1569 01:34:20,160 --> 01:34:22,920 Speaker 1: But if they but they certainly can choose not to 1570 01:34:22,960 --> 01:34:28,360 Speaker 1: put money in in that latest fundraise. Okay, but theoretically 1571 01:34:29,400 --> 01:34:31,599 Speaker 1: they could be they could see it as being somewhat 1572 01:34:31,680 --> 01:34:35,120 Speaker 1: diluted relative to the stock market. If you raise more 1573 01:34:35,160 --> 01:34:38,719 Speaker 1: money when you go out and you do that raise, 1574 01:34:39,080 --> 01:34:44,120 Speaker 1: you're you're right that people come in at a strike rate, right, 1575 01:34:44,200 --> 01:34:47,120 Speaker 1: and that strike rate is based on what the NAV 1576 01:34:47,360 --> 01:34:51,160 Speaker 1: is of the company net asset value is of the 1577 01:34:51,200 --> 01:34:55,800 Speaker 1: company at that moment in time. So the current um 1578 01:34:56,040 --> 01:35:02,680 Speaker 1: uh NAV of the company is teen pence and change. 1579 01:35:03,240 --> 01:35:06,320 Speaker 1: The current share price of the company is about a 1580 01:35:06,360 --> 01:35:08,840 Speaker 1: hundred and twenty three pence, so we're trading at a 1581 01:35:08,880 --> 01:35:13,400 Speaker 1: premium of about four or five percent. And if we 1582 01:35:13,400 --> 01:35:16,960 Speaker 1: were to issue new shares tomorrow and we issued some 1583 01:35:17,040 --> 01:35:19,479 Speaker 1: new shares a small amount of new shares last week 1584 01:35:19,520 --> 01:35:22,400 Speaker 1: as an example, then those shares were issued at one 1585 01:35:22,400 --> 01:35:26,559 Speaker 1: pound eighteen and people came in. And because of the 1586 01:35:26,560 --> 01:35:29,920 Speaker 1: fact that we're taking this money and investing it in 1587 01:35:30,360 --> 01:35:34,960 Speaker 1: more assets, no one is diluted because the capt market 1588 01:35:34,960 --> 01:35:38,160 Speaker 1: cap of the company grows at the same time with 1589 01:35:38,200 --> 01:35:40,960 Speaker 1: the investment. So it's not like you're taking a hundred 1590 01:35:40,960 --> 01:35:44,479 Speaker 1: million dollars or a hundred million pounds and you're spending 1591 01:35:44,520 --> 01:35:48,519 Speaker 1: it on overheads that don't increase the value of the company. 1592 01:35:48,920 --> 01:35:51,880 Speaker 1: You're spending it on assets that do increase the value 1593 01:35:51,880 --> 01:35:55,800 Speaker 1: of the company, so there is no dilution. So, as 1594 01:35:55,840 --> 01:35:58,680 Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier, one of the good things about publishing, 1595 01:35:58,800 --> 01:36:00,880 Speaker 1: especially with some of these like Onic Acts of the 1596 01:36:00,960 --> 01:36:06,479 Speaker 1: seventies thereafter, they actually own the publishing. So you've got 1597 01:36:06,640 --> 01:36:09,680 Speaker 1: great acts, you've got a hundred and fifty acts, but 1598 01:36:10,360 --> 01:36:13,400 Speaker 1: there's a huge number of people out there who still 1599 01:36:13,400 --> 01:36:19,840 Speaker 1: own their publishing. How does Hypnosis Hypnosis by what's available 1600 01:36:20,040 --> 01:36:22,679 Speaker 1: or does at some point does Hypnosis close its fund 1601 01:36:22,680 --> 01:36:28,439 Speaker 1: and say close its organization and we're only managing X number. Well, 1602 01:36:28,479 --> 01:36:32,799 Speaker 1: there's certainly a ceiling to our growth, but that ceiling 1603 01:36:32,920 --> 01:36:37,400 Speaker 1: is driven by what I referred to as the third 1604 01:36:38,520 --> 01:36:41,560 Speaker 1: key factor in what I wanted to achieve with Hypnosis, 1605 01:36:41,560 --> 01:36:45,240 Speaker 1: which is that I wanted to take that traditional publishing 1606 01:36:45,920 --> 01:36:49,360 Speaker 1: and replace it with song management. Right now, in order 1607 01:36:49,400 --> 01:36:53,479 Speaker 1: to be an effective song management er, there's obviously a 1608 01:36:53,560 --> 01:36:56,599 Speaker 1: ceiling on on what you can do. So we currently 1609 01:36:56,640 --> 01:37:01,080 Speaker 1: own sixty thousand songs. Over five thousand of those songs 1610 01:37:01,080 --> 01:37:04,439 Speaker 1: are number one songs, Over fifteen thousand of them are 1611 01:37:04,479 --> 01:37:08,400 Speaker 1: Top ten songs, over forty thousand them are top forty songs, 1612 01:37:08,800 --> 01:37:10,800 Speaker 1: and the rest are the ones that that that that 1613 01:37:10,960 --> 01:37:14,439 Speaker 1: came with them in in word two point two, as 1614 01:37:14,439 --> 01:37:18,160 Speaker 1: I say billion or so dollars invested in the next 1615 01:37:18,200 --> 01:37:21,519 Speaker 1: two years, I expect to be somewhere around the five 1616 01:37:21,600 --> 01:37:25,360 Speaker 1: or six billion dollar mark invested, and I expect to 1617 01:37:25,439 --> 01:37:29,040 Speaker 1: grow the fund from the hundred sixty three thousand songs 1618 01:37:29,080 --> 01:37:32,080 Speaker 1: that it is today to about a hundred and twenty 1619 01:37:32,080 --> 01:37:35,280 Speaker 1: five thousand to a hundred and fifty thousand songs. At 1620 01:37:35,320 --> 01:37:39,400 Speaker 1: that point, I will also have grown the active management 1621 01:37:39,400 --> 01:37:42,719 Speaker 1: team to about two hundred people, so that we stay 1622 01:37:42,960 --> 01:37:46,479 Speaker 1: on that less than a thousand songs per person um. 1623 01:37:46,600 --> 01:37:49,200 Speaker 1: And at that point you know whether it's two two 1624 01:37:49,280 --> 01:37:52,760 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty people, whether it's a hundred hundred and 1625 01:37:52,840 --> 01:37:55,880 Speaker 1: fifty thousand songs. I think that that is the real 1626 01:37:56,000 --> 01:38:00,400 Speaker 1: ceiling on being a song management company, because I don't 1627 01:38:00,400 --> 01:38:03,280 Speaker 1: think you can manage more than two fifty people. I 1628 01:38:03,320 --> 01:38:06,040 Speaker 1: don't think that you can manage more than fifty thousand 1629 01:38:06,160 --> 01:38:08,960 Speaker 1: songs with the sort of responsibility that I want to 1630 01:38:09,000 --> 01:38:14,320 Speaker 1: manage songs equally well. Coinciding with that same two and 1631 01:38:14,320 --> 01:38:16,479 Speaker 1: a half two to two and a half year period, 1632 01:38:17,040 --> 01:38:20,800 Speaker 1: I think that the true value of streaming will be 1633 01:38:20,920 --> 01:38:24,280 Speaker 1: reflected in the song that the data that you buy 1634 01:38:24,320 --> 01:38:28,040 Speaker 1: these songs on and I think at that point, you know, 1635 01:38:28,080 --> 01:38:32,200 Speaker 1: there'll be a lot of people that want access into 1636 01:38:32,240 --> 01:38:34,680 Speaker 1: this space. I don't think that there'll be a lot 1637 01:38:34,720 --> 01:38:36,960 Speaker 1: of access left. I think that there's a lot of 1638 01:38:37,000 --> 01:38:40,400 Speaker 1: pipeline out there today, whether it's for me, whether it's 1639 01:38:40,439 --> 01:38:44,040 Speaker 1: for Primary Wave, whether it's for Around Hill, whether it's 1640 01:38:44,080 --> 01:38:46,880 Speaker 1: for all of you know, KK are these other companies 1641 01:38:47,160 --> 01:38:49,960 Speaker 1: BMG that are are are looking to buy as well. 1642 01:38:50,200 --> 01:38:52,519 Speaker 1: I think there's more than enough pipeline to go around 1643 01:38:52,560 --> 01:38:56,240 Speaker 1: for everybody. Everyone has their own relationships. But I think 1644 01:38:56,240 --> 01:38:58,320 Speaker 1: that at a certain point there will be a lot 1645 01:38:58,360 --> 01:39:01,720 Speaker 1: of other people wanting to enter space. There won't be 1646 01:39:01,760 --> 01:39:04,240 Speaker 1: a lot of of of action left in the space, 1647 01:39:04,680 --> 01:39:08,360 Speaker 1: and the multiples will really explode because people will want 1648 01:39:08,360 --> 01:39:11,559 Speaker 1: to pay very very high prices to get their hands 1649 01:39:11,560 --> 01:39:14,800 Speaker 1: on these assets. And I'm just to be clear, I'm 1650 01:39:14,880 --> 01:39:18,120 Speaker 1: never a seller. You know, people like Larry Mistell, they buy, 1651 01:39:18,240 --> 01:39:21,160 Speaker 1: they sell, that's the business that that that they're in. 1652 01:39:21,479 --> 01:39:24,080 Speaker 1: We don't sell. We're and and we've been very very 1653 01:39:24,120 --> 01:39:27,400 Speaker 1: clear with our investors from the get go, and it's 1654 01:39:27,439 --> 01:39:30,160 Speaker 1: the reason why I did this as a public vehicle, 1655 01:39:30,240 --> 01:39:33,439 Speaker 1: because I never want to turn around. I don't know 1656 01:39:33,439 --> 01:39:36,439 Speaker 1: how Larry rationalizes it when he talks to someone like 1657 01:39:36,479 --> 01:39:39,000 Speaker 1: Stevie Nicks that you know, he might be selling her 1658 01:39:39,040 --> 01:39:41,640 Speaker 1: catalog in two years time. But I never want to 1659 01:39:41,680 --> 01:39:43,599 Speaker 1: be in a position where I'm looking someone like Neil 1660 01:39:43,680 --> 01:39:45,920 Speaker 1: Young in the I and say that, you know, guess what, 1661 01:39:46,000 --> 01:39:48,800 Speaker 1: We've just sold your catalog. So the reason to do 1662 01:39:48,840 --> 01:39:51,839 Speaker 1: this is a public company is because effectively the capital 1663 01:39:51,920 --> 01:39:56,439 Speaker 1: is permanent, whereas private equity money has five year terms, 1664 01:39:56,560 --> 01:39:59,439 Speaker 1: ten year terms, you know, and and at that point 1665 01:39:59,520 --> 01:40:03,479 Speaker 1: you have to to to sell and and you know, 1666 01:40:03,520 --> 01:40:06,479 Speaker 1: I never want to be in that position. And I've 1667 01:40:06,520 --> 01:40:09,040 Speaker 1: even gone to the extent in terms of protecting my 1668 01:40:09,120 --> 01:40:13,920 Speaker 1: integrity with the songwriter where if for any reason, our 1669 01:40:14,000 --> 01:40:17,840 Speaker 1: shareholders should ever want to sell, or if our shareholders 1670 01:40:17,840 --> 01:40:20,040 Speaker 1: should ever want to get rid of me, they have 1671 01:40:20,160 --> 01:40:23,360 Speaker 1: to sell the catalog to me, because my relationship is 1672 01:40:23,400 --> 01:40:26,760 Speaker 1: with the artists and the songwriters and the producers that 1673 01:40:26,840 --> 01:40:30,519 Speaker 1: have allowed me to become the custodian of of of 1674 01:40:30,520 --> 01:40:33,880 Speaker 1: of these great works. Um, and that's an important part 1675 01:40:33,880 --> 01:40:36,960 Speaker 1: of what we do. Okay, So you know you really 1676 01:40:36,960 --> 01:40:39,799 Speaker 1: went to my next question. So getting to some stock 1677 01:40:39,840 --> 01:40:43,759 Speaker 1: market issues, I would assume A the company has no debt. 1678 01:40:44,360 --> 01:40:49,280 Speaker 1: B it's traded on the stock exchange. See could they 1679 01:40:49,360 --> 01:40:54,160 Speaker 1: get rid of you in family D. Could someone come 1680 01:40:54,200 --> 01:40:56,800 Speaker 1: in and buy all the stock and essentially own the 1681 01:40:56,840 --> 01:41:00,960 Speaker 1: company and run it their way. So in terms of 1682 01:41:00,960 --> 01:41:03,639 Speaker 1: of A yes, we're a public company on the stock 1683 01:41:03,720 --> 01:41:06,280 Speaker 1: market as are saying, we're a foot see two fifty company, 1684 01:41:06,320 --> 01:41:09,280 Speaker 1: one of the highest yielders on the index. And of 1685 01:41:09,320 --> 01:41:14,519 Speaker 1: course with that success having given our shareholders of total 1686 01:41:14,560 --> 01:41:20,759 Speaker 1: return over the last three years, return over the last year. UM, 1687 01:41:20,800 --> 01:41:24,240 Speaker 1: you know, we're looked upon very very kindly, particularly in 1688 01:41:24,360 --> 01:41:29,559 Speaker 1: a pandemic environment. UM. We do have debt because our 1689 01:41:29,600 --> 01:41:35,479 Speaker 1: prospectives allows us to lever our assets bytent um. And 1690 01:41:35,520 --> 01:41:39,720 Speaker 1: that's because our investors want to get paid their dividends UH, 1691 01:41:39,760 --> 01:41:44,040 Speaker 1: and they want to to basically by using leverage, get 1692 01:41:44,080 --> 01:41:47,519 Speaker 1: even higher dividends and even higher total returns. So the 1693 01:41:47,600 --> 01:41:51,080 Speaker 1: leverage is something that is agreed at thirty percent and 1694 01:41:51,120 --> 01:41:56,000 Speaker 1: we have a great UH consortium of of of lenders 1695 01:41:56,040 --> 01:41:59,479 Speaker 1: led by JP Morgan and City National Bank that do 1696 01:41:59,640 --> 01:42:03,240 Speaker 1: that BOB for us UM. And then in terms of 1697 01:42:03,240 --> 01:42:06,040 Speaker 1: of of the family I have a ten year agreement 1698 01:42:06,080 --> 01:42:09,080 Speaker 1: as the founder of of of both sides. I have 1699 01:42:09,120 --> 01:42:13,840 Speaker 1: a ten year agreement with the fund. That agreement rolls 1700 01:42:13,920 --> 01:42:17,040 Speaker 1: over UM and I can only you know, we can 1701 01:42:17,080 --> 01:42:20,200 Speaker 1: never only ever be removed for cause UM. As I 1702 01:42:20,240 --> 01:42:24,680 Speaker 1: mentioned before, we have an administrator that handles all the 1703 01:42:24,680 --> 01:42:28,040 Speaker 1: money for the fund that is an independent administrator. We 1704 01:42:28,120 --> 01:42:31,679 Speaker 1: never touch or see any of the fund's money. UM. 1705 01:42:31,720 --> 01:42:35,400 Speaker 1: We just manage the the assets and the buying of 1706 01:42:35,400 --> 01:42:38,440 Speaker 1: of of the assets. I have a board of directors 1707 01:42:38,800 --> 01:42:42,120 Speaker 1: that is five people strong, that is led by a 1708 01:42:42,160 --> 01:42:48,240 Speaker 1: guy called Andrew Such that a corporate governance specialist, but 1709 01:42:48,439 --> 01:42:51,639 Speaker 1: that includes people like Paul Berger who's the former head 1710 01:42:51,680 --> 01:42:55,479 Speaker 1: of Sony UK and Sony Europe, was also the head 1711 01:42:55,520 --> 01:42:59,080 Speaker 1: at one time of Sony Canada, Sylvia Coleman who was 1712 01:42:59,160 --> 01:43:03,400 Speaker 1: his deputy at Sony UK and Sony Europe. Andrew Wilkinson 1713 01:43:03,439 --> 01:43:06,240 Speaker 1: who was the business manager along with Prince Rupert Lowenstein 1714 01:43:06,320 --> 01:43:11,040 Speaker 1: of the Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd Um and then 1715 01:43:11,560 --> 01:43:16,799 Speaker 1: another guy who's a private equity government specialist called Simon Holden. 1716 01:43:17,320 --> 01:43:21,320 Speaker 1: And those people obviously are there to hold my feet 1717 01:43:21,320 --> 01:43:23,880 Speaker 1: to the fire and make sure that all of the 1718 01:43:23,960 --> 01:43:28,479 Speaker 1: boxes are ticked properly and that both corporate governance and 1719 01:43:28,520 --> 01:43:33,080 Speaker 1: compliance is adhered to at all times. I'm also surrounded 1720 01:43:33,120 --> 01:43:36,479 Speaker 1: by my brokers at JP Morgan and plus one singer 1721 01:43:36,840 --> 01:43:38,960 Speaker 1: in the Royal Bank of Canada that are also there 1722 01:43:38,960 --> 01:43:42,040 Speaker 1: to protect shareholders as well as to guide me in 1723 01:43:42,160 --> 01:43:45,840 Speaker 1: my dealings with shareholders. Um so it's a very very 1724 01:43:45,920 --> 01:43:49,200 Speaker 1: robust situation. And then as I say, you know what 1725 01:43:49,200 --> 01:43:51,800 Speaker 1: what you know? One of the things that the the 1726 01:43:52,680 --> 01:43:58,400 Speaker 1: financial community understands is that whatever the asset is, whether 1727 01:43:58,439 --> 01:44:00,960 Speaker 1: it's in the case of hypno us as songs and 1728 01:44:01,080 --> 01:44:05,320 Speaker 1: music that's created by artists and songwriters and producers, or 1729 01:44:05,360 --> 01:44:08,960 Speaker 1: whether it's something else, the key component is do you 1730 01:44:09,120 --> 01:44:13,880 Speaker 1: or don't you have access right and they understand that 1731 01:44:13,880 --> 01:44:18,240 Speaker 1: that access is quite often based on integrity and the 1732 01:44:18,280 --> 01:44:21,559 Speaker 1: relationships that someone has built over a long period of time. 1733 01:44:22,120 --> 01:44:24,960 Speaker 1: So it was very easy for me to be able 1734 01:44:25,000 --> 01:44:30,559 Speaker 1: to prevail upon those investors and uh, you know, create 1735 01:44:30,600 --> 01:44:35,080 Speaker 1: a deal whereby should our you know, investors ever want 1736 01:44:35,160 --> 01:44:37,720 Speaker 1: to get out of the fund? You know, it's very 1737 01:44:37,760 --> 01:44:40,799 Speaker 1: easy for them in a in an investment trust because 1738 01:44:40,960 --> 01:44:44,120 Speaker 1: they can get out the shares are very liquid and 1739 01:44:44,160 --> 01:44:47,200 Speaker 1: someone else will replace them the next day. But if 1740 01:44:47,200 --> 01:44:49,920 Speaker 1: for whatever reason. If we decide that the company should 1741 01:44:49,920 --> 01:44:54,080 Speaker 1: not be a public company anymore, then the only person 1742 01:44:54,479 --> 01:44:59,479 Speaker 1: that these assets can be sold to Army UM unless again, 1743 01:44:59,640 --> 01:45:02,960 Speaker 1: unless I'm fired for for cause, and I'm never going 1744 01:45:03,000 --> 01:45:05,160 Speaker 1: to put myself in a position having built all this 1745 01:45:05,640 --> 01:45:09,559 Speaker 1: just just I understand you talk about the tenure rollover. 1746 01:45:10,000 --> 01:45:14,880 Speaker 1: Are you talking about you, Merk or Family? And just 1747 01:45:15,080 --> 01:45:18,080 Speaker 1: the other question being theoretically, I'm not saying it's going 1748 01:45:18,160 --> 01:45:21,040 Speaker 1: to happen. Could someone come along and buy up all 1749 01:45:21,080 --> 01:45:25,639 Speaker 1: the assets so effectively they have control or is there 1750 01:45:25,720 --> 01:45:28,160 Speaker 1: some kind of voting structure or something that makes it 1751 01:45:28,200 --> 01:45:32,320 Speaker 1: that that can't happen. So when I talk about the 1752 01:45:32,360 --> 01:45:35,519 Speaker 1: Family and Mark were effectively one and the same, because 1753 01:45:35,680 --> 01:45:37,720 Speaker 1: the company is my company with the exception of a 1754 01:45:37,720 --> 01:45:42,280 Speaker 1: few minor shareholders, and therefore the contract that I have 1755 01:45:43,000 --> 01:45:46,599 Speaker 1: with the fund is through the Family Music Limited as 1756 01:45:46,680 --> 01:45:50,439 Speaker 1: my operating company. UM. In terms of of you know, 1757 01:45:51,160 --> 01:45:53,920 Speaker 1: any company that's on the stock market could be the 1758 01:45:53,960 --> 01:45:56,960 Speaker 1: subject of a hostile takeover this, you know that, and 1759 01:45:57,040 --> 01:46:00,439 Speaker 1: that's something that of course shareholders would have to vote on, 1760 01:46:00,960 --> 01:46:04,599 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, there's there's always the chance when 1761 01:46:04,640 --> 01:46:07,800 Speaker 1: you're on the on the public market that even though 1762 01:46:07,960 --> 01:46:10,840 Speaker 1: something like that is remote, there's always a possibility that 1763 01:46:10,880 --> 01:46:14,560 Speaker 1: it could happen. Okay, Now, just telling about the landscape 1764 01:46:14,560 --> 01:46:20,280 Speaker 1: in general. What are the new opportunities in sync and 1765 01:46:20,320 --> 01:46:25,320 Speaker 1: what are the new opportunities relative to collection in general, 1766 01:46:26,040 --> 01:46:29,840 Speaker 1: and where is the focus of your managers? So the 1767 01:46:29,880 --> 01:46:33,479 Speaker 1: focus is very much on getting more out of these 1768 01:46:33,520 --> 01:46:36,559 Speaker 1: great songs, and getting more out of them in many, 1769 01:46:36,600 --> 01:46:39,360 Speaker 1: many different ways. So you know, we own the great 1770 01:46:39,400 --> 01:46:43,879 Speaker 1: Al Jackson's catalog, and when we bought Al Jackson's catalog, 1771 01:46:44,160 --> 01:46:48,439 Speaker 1: it was making predictable, reliable income of four grand a year. 1772 01:46:49,240 --> 01:46:55,240 Speaker 1: But you know, of that income was concentrated on one song, 1773 01:46:55,640 --> 01:46:59,000 Speaker 1: Al Green's Let's Stay Together and as there probably no 1774 01:46:59,360 --> 01:47:01,760 Speaker 1: Al jack and as the drummer and Booker T and 1775 01:47:01,840 --> 01:47:05,880 Speaker 1: the MG's had an incredible career between nineteen sixty two 1776 01:47:05,920 --> 01:47:08,840 Speaker 1: and when he died in nineteen seventy five, where he 1777 01:47:08,920 --> 01:47:12,520 Speaker 1: wrote you know thirteen or fourteen of the most important 1778 01:47:12,520 --> 01:47:16,559 Speaker 1: soul pop classics, not only Let's Stay Together, but still 1779 01:47:16,600 --> 01:47:19,759 Speaker 1: in Love with You and call Me for Al Green 1780 01:47:19,800 --> 01:47:24,280 Speaker 1: plus seven or eight of his other biggest songs he wrote, uh, 1781 01:47:24,320 --> 01:47:26,880 Speaker 1: you know Booker Team, the MGS, Green Onions plus most 1782 01:47:26,920 --> 01:47:32,439 Speaker 1: of their big records, plus getting royalties on big records 1783 01:47:32,439 --> 01:47:36,320 Speaker 1: by Bill Withers and Otis Redding and many many others. 1784 01:47:37,640 --> 01:47:43,960 Speaker 1: So of the concentration of this four grand is on 1785 01:47:43,960 --> 01:47:47,280 Speaker 1: one song, Let's Stay Together, which just tells you what 1786 01:47:47,400 --> 01:47:49,360 Speaker 1: I was, you know, a great example of what I 1787 01:47:49,400 --> 01:47:53,200 Speaker 1: was saying before about these uh you know, big companies 1788 01:47:53,200 --> 01:47:55,960 Speaker 1: that have twenty thousand songs per person, they don't have 1789 01:47:56,080 --> 01:48:00,519 Speaker 1: the ability to actively manage. They're just taking incoming requests. 1790 01:48:00,600 --> 01:48:03,000 Speaker 1: So in the year and a half that we've owned 1791 01:48:03,000 --> 01:48:06,000 Speaker 1: the catalog, we've gone from four hundred grand a year 1792 01:48:06,080 --> 01:48:08,000 Speaker 1: to six hundred grand a year, so we've grown the 1793 01:48:08,040 --> 01:48:11,800 Speaker 1: earnings by a third. But crucially in doing that, we've 1794 01:48:11,840 --> 01:48:15,720 Speaker 1: taken the earnings of Let's Stay Together from of the 1795 01:48:15,800 --> 01:48:19,320 Speaker 1: overall number to less than fifty percent of the overall number. 1796 01:48:19,640 --> 01:48:23,559 Speaker 1: And the remaining is now having put green onions in 1797 01:48:23,560 --> 01:48:27,080 Speaker 1: about ten different movies, it's putting Call Me in a 1798 01:48:27,080 --> 01:48:30,320 Speaker 1: TV commercial, it's putting Still in Love with You in 1799 01:48:30,360 --> 01:48:34,839 Speaker 1: a movie, a TV commercial, and also having John Legend 1800 01:48:34,880 --> 01:48:38,000 Speaker 1: interpolated in a new song on his last album that 1801 01:48:38,080 --> 01:48:40,040 Speaker 1: was top ten all over the world that we owned 1802 01:48:41,320 --> 01:48:46,040 Speaker 1: of the new song because of the interpolation, so everyone 1803 01:48:46,160 --> 01:48:49,439 Speaker 1: is focused on on on you know, how to you know, 1804 01:48:49,520 --> 01:48:53,400 Speaker 1: we basically operate every song on its own p anal 1805 01:48:53,479 --> 01:48:56,880 Speaker 1: as if it was its own business, not to institutionalize it, 1806 01:48:57,280 --> 01:49:01,560 Speaker 1: but basically to give a starting point to a conversation 1807 01:49:02,040 --> 01:49:05,040 Speaker 1: about whether or not we think the song is performing optimally, 1808 01:49:05,600 --> 01:49:10,599 Speaker 1: and in most cases really to guilt people into going 1809 01:49:10,760 --> 01:49:13,080 Speaker 1: hold on a set. That song is way better than that. 1810 01:49:13,120 --> 01:49:15,160 Speaker 1: We should be doing way better than that with that song, 1811 01:49:15,240 --> 01:49:18,320 Speaker 1: and it gives that kind of impetus for people to 1812 01:49:18,360 --> 01:49:20,760 Speaker 1: go out and do something with it. So, you know, 1813 01:49:20,760 --> 01:49:24,080 Speaker 1: when we look at the Blondie catalog that we acquired 1814 01:49:24,200 --> 01:49:26,719 Speaker 1: a little more than a year ago, you know when 1815 01:49:26,720 --> 01:49:31,639 Speaker 1: Blondie started, and you've written two really important pieces over 1816 01:49:31,680 --> 01:49:35,960 Speaker 1: the last ten days or so on TikTok that everyone 1817 01:49:36,000 --> 01:49:40,920 Speaker 1: in the music business should read. Because these new opportunities, 1818 01:49:41,000 --> 01:49:44,880 Speaker 1: whether it's TikTok, whether it's Peloton, whether it's Thriller, you know, 1819 01:49:45,320 --> 01:49:49,679 Speaker 1: these are are are big opportunities. One because there's massive 1820 01:49:49,720 --> 01:49:53,920 Speaker 1: consumption taking place, and too because it's new income. These 1821 01:49:53,920 --> 01:49:57,519 Speaker 1: are not income streams that are in the data on 1822 01:49:57,640 --> 01:50:00,960 Speaker 1: which you're buying these catalogs. So it's real value add 1823 01:50:01,080 --> 01:50:04,439 Speaker 1: from the get go. So when when when we uh 1824 01:50:04,680 --> 01:50:08,400 Speaker 1: signed Blondie, they didn't have a TikTok page. Amy Thompson, 1825 01:50:08,439 --> 01:50:12,400 Speaker 1: who's the chief catalog officer, got very very excited obviously 1826 01:50:12,439 --> 01:50:15,720 Speaker 1: about Debbie Harry being the icon that she is and 1827 01:50:15,840 --> 01:50:19,000 Speaker 1: Christine and Debbie being the incredible songwriters that they are. 1828 01:50:19,720 --> 01:50:24,439 Speaker 1: They started a campaign to create Blondie's TikTok page. They 1829 01:50:24,479 --> 01:50:28,880 Speaker 1: put Heart of Glass up there, and you know, very 1830 01:50:28,920 --> 01:50:33,280 Speaker 1: soon after that, Miley Cyrus covered Heart of Glass. That 1831 01:50:33,439 --> 01:50:36,960 Speaker 1: gave us an opportunity to bring Debbie and Miley together 1832 01:50:37,560 --> 01:50:41,879 Speaker 1: and create some you know photos that looked like Debbie 1833 01:50:41,880 --> 01:50:46,960 Speaker 1: and Miley, you know, Miley of and Debbie of nine 1834 01:50:48,080 --> 01:50:51,559 Speaker 1: together having a good time in a club that you know, 1835 01:50:51,840 --> 01:50:56,040 Speaker 1: quote unquote went viral. And you know, from last October 1836 01:50:56,640 --> 01:51:00,160 Speaker 1: until the very moment, Heart of Glass hasn't been out 1837 01:51:00,280 --> 01:51:04,479 Speaker 1: of Spotify's viral charts, right and and and you know, 1838 01:51:04,520 --> 01:51:07,120 Speaker 1: I think some at last count, you know, Blonde you've 1839 01:51:07,120 --> 01:51:11,160 Speaker 1: had over a million participants on their TikTok channel. Um, 1840 01:51:11,240 --> 01:51:13,800 Speaker 1: the same thing is happening with Nile Rodgers. We went 1841 01:51:13,840 --> 01:51:17,360 Speaker 1: out and took everybody dance the Great chic song, UM, 1842 01:51:17,640 --> 01:51:20,599 Speaker 1: and we made a new version of it with uh 1843 01:51:21,040 --> 01:51:25,400 Speaker 1: DJ Cedric Gervais and the Sound of Franklin with Nile featured, 1844 01:51:25,720 --> 01:51:29,160 Speaker 1: uh you know, playing his guitar part, and that's becoming 1845 01:51:29,160 --> 01:51:32,320 Speaker 1: a hit all over again. And you know, literally came 1846 01:51:32,320 --> 01:51:36,439 Speaker 1: out in last I think October, and every week the 1847 01:51:36,439 --> 01:51:40,200 Speaker 1: streams are bigger on it, and the TikTok numbers are 1848 01:51:40,240 --> 01:51:43,639 Speaker 1: bigger on it. So it's just really about, you know, 1849 01:51:44,040 --> 01:51:45,920 Speaker 1: what makes us different. I don't know if you know 1850 01:51:45,960 --> 01:51:49,960 Speaker 1: the statistic, but the Royal Bank of Canada, who as 1851 01:51:50,000 --> 01:51:52,960 Speaker 1: I mentioned, is one of our brokers, UM, they put 1852 01:51:52,960 --> 01:51:57,360 Speaker 1: out a comparison chart last year in July when we 1853 01:51:57,400 --> 01:52:02,599 Speaker 1: released our fiscal numbers for Mark thirty, the same day 1854 01:52:02,640 --> 01:52:05,960 Speaker 1: that Warner I p oed, and they did a comparison 1855 01:52:06,000 --> 01:52:10,360 Speaker 1: between the two companies. And at that point, Warner Chapel 1856 01:52:10,439 --> 01:52:14,800 Speaker 1: had done six hundred forty million dollars in their fiscal year. 1857 01:52:15,400 --> 01:52:18,240 Speaker 1: We had done ninety million dollars in our fiscal year, 1858 01:52:18,320 --> 01:52:22,160 Speaker 1: so we did approximately twelve percent of Warner's numbers. They 1859 01:52:22,200 --> 01:52:25,400 Speaker 1: did it on one point four million songs. We did 1860 01:52:25,400 --> 01:52:27,920 Speaker 1: it at the time on thirteen thousand songs, so we 1861 01:52:28,040 --> 01:52:31,479 Speaker 1: did twelve percent of the revenue on less than one 1862 01:52:31,520 --> 01:52:34,639 Speaker 1: percent of the songs. Their songs were putting out. Our 1863 01:52:34,720 --> 01:52:36,800 Speaker 1: songs were putting out six thousand, two hundred and eighty 1864 01:52:36,840 --> 01:52:39,439 Speaker 1: dollars per song. Their songs were putting out a hundred 1865 01:52:39,479 --> 01:52:42,599 Speaker 1: and seventy five dollars per song. And that's not because 1866 01:52:42,640 --> 01:52:45,599 Speaker 1: we're better than they are or we're smarter than they are, 1867 01:52:46,320 --> 01:52:48,599 Speaker 1: quite the opposite. As I said before, there's great people 1868 01:52:48,640 --> 01:52:53,040 Speaker 1: working in those companies. It's purely because we're structured to 1869 01:52:53,120 --> 01:52:55,600 Speaker 1: be able to have the bandwidth, to be able to 1870 01:52:55,680 --> 01:52:59,519 Speaker 1: actively manage these songs, to do song management rather than 1871 01:52:59,560 --> 01:53:03,080 Speaker 1: just collect passive requests. Mark, you're a force of nature 1872 01:53:03,240 --> 01:53:06,840 Speaker 1: and I'm very impressed. You certainly know your business and 1873 01:53:06,920 --> 01:53:10,000 Speaker 1: the business at larger You can pull these names statistics 1874 01:53:10,080 --> 01:53:13,000 Speaker 1: right out of your butt very easily. So I want 1875 01:53:13,000 --> 01:53:15,800 Speaker 1: to thank you so much for taking this time to 1876 01:53:15,840 --> 01:53:21,240 Speaker 1: illuminate about your history and hypnosis. I think people have 1877 01:53:21,280 --> 01:53:24,320 Speaker 1: a much better understanding of what's going on. Thanks again, 1878 01:53:24,560 --> 01:53:28,160 Speaker 1: it's my pleasure, Bob. Thank you, and please keep writing 1879 01:53:28,160 --> 01:53:30,160 Speaker 1: about the music that you love, because when you do, 1880 01:53:30,200 --> 01:53:32,640 Speaker 1: I think you're the best there is. Well, thank you 1881 01:53:32,680 --> 01:53:35,719 Speaker 1: so much. Until next time, this is Bob left sex