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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori

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Speaker 1: with you. Journalist turned psychologist, doctor Laurie Nadel is on

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Speaker 1: the front lines of disaster mental health. For the past

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Speaker 1: couple of years, she's been leading a Sunday night support

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Speaker 1: program online for long haulers, the thirty percent of COVID

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Speaker 1: patients who developed severe neurological cardiac conditions after surviving the

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Speaker 1: acute respiratory infection stage. And after twenty years working in

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Speaker 1: television news, she saw that people whose lives were shattered

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Speaker 1: by breaking news events would need targeted support. Returning to

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Speaker 1: school to become a psychologist, She's been on the front

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Speaker 1: lines of mental health after nine to eleven, Hurricane Sandy,

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Speaker 1: the Parkland School shooting, and now the current pandemic. Maria Shriver,

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Speaker 1: journalist and part of the Kennedy Clan, calls doctor Laurie

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Speaker 1: an architect of change. Her latest book is called The

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Speaker 1: Five Gifts and Laurie, Welcome back to the program. George,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for having me back. It's good

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Speaker 1: to have you. What a time though, huh oh crazy?

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Speaker 1: What is it? The Chinese Sama, you live in interesting times. Yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: are you seeing this with a lot of people? The

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Speaker 1: stress levels have just gone through the roof, through the roof.

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Speaker 1: I've never never seen anything like this. I think the

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Speaker 1: the in the uncertainty going into year three is just

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Speaker 1: really causing people to get agitated. And the numbers show

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Speaker 1: that anxiety levels are much higher than they were in

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. As the restrictions continue to try to get

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Speaker 1: you know, poured on people, They're getting more and more

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Speaker 1: uptight about it, aren't they. I think people don't know

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Speaker 1: what to do. You know, did you stand you go

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Speaker 1: out to do her? A mask? What kind of mask

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Speaker 1: of you know, you get vaccinated? When you get vaccinated,

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Speaker 1: isn't going to protect you? Is it not going to

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Speaker 1: protect you? Is there a new vari and what other

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Speaker 1: new variants may be coming down the pike? And you know,

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Speaker 1: I think that you know, it may be helpful to

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Speaker 1: think something, you know, to kind of take a historical,

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Speaker 1: big picture of view and realized that this isn't the

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Speaker 1: first pandemic that our species has survived. And I just

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Speaker 1: wanted to actually read something briefly from a book called

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Speaker 1: Epidemics and Society from the Black Death to the present.

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Speaker 1: It's by Frank Snowdon. He's a history professor at Yale.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was very interesting because he writes, bubonic

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Speaker 1: plague is one of the best examples of a disease

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Speaker 1: that affects every aspect of society. It's recurring cycles with

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Speaker 1: an epidemic. I hate to say this, with an epidemic,

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Speaker 1: every generation constituted a major break on population growth between

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Speaker 1: the fourteenth and eighteen centuries. It had devastating effects as

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Speaker 1: well on economic life and development. And it's substantially influenced religion,

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Speaker 1: on popular culture, giving rise to a new piety, to

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Speaker 1: cults of what they called plague saints, and to passion place.

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Speaker 1: It also deeply affected the relationship of people to their

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Speaker 1: mortality and indeed to God. Now I think we could

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Speaker 1: say this about our current pandemic. I don't think that

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Speaker 1: that humanity where we are. I mean, every person in

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Speaker 1: the globe is affected by this, and it's going to

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Speaker 1: have an incredible effect for generations to come. I've got

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Speaker 1: a friend, Laurie, who's a doctor, and he said he

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Speaker 1: has never seen so many cases of people coming to

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Speaker 1: him for anxiety in wanting medications or whatever. But he says,

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Speaker 1: I've never seen it this high. I'm sure that that's true.

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Speaker 1: It was very high. I think what we spoke last year,

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Speaker 1: it had jumped up. As far as I could statistics

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Speaker 1: I was able to find it jumped up from like

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Speaker 1: eight point two percent to something like forty two. But

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Speaker 1: that was those statistics were twenty twenty, twenty twenty, I

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Speaker 1: think the end of twenty twenty. And it's just it's

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Speaker 1: just escalating anxiety and a sense of helplessness. And we

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Speaker 1: talk about disaster, we're talking about mass casualty events in

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Speaker 1: which you know, technically more than five people are kind

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Speaker 1: of killed is one definition. And certainly we have millions

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Speaker 1: and millions of people around the world who have died

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Speaker 1: from this and who are getting you continue to get sick,

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Speaker 1: and so we're looking at you know that this pathogen

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Speaker 1: is an invisible energy, it's an invisible enemy. Um, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't have a face. It's a morphous Experts call this

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Speaker 1: a disaster of uncertainty. Unlike other disasters or catastrophes that

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Speaker 1: had a beginning, a middle, and an end, we don't

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Speaker 1: really know when this one began, how long it's going

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Speaker 1: to last, how many variants is it going to have?

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Speaker 1: When is it going to be over? And the continuing

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Speaker 1: evolution and the continuing I hate to say it, kind

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Speaker 1: of hysteria around each new variant in each new wave

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Speaker 1: is just causing these anxiety levels to rise and also

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Speaker 1: anger because comes from helplessness. Absolutely, And one of my concerns,

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Speaker 1: Laurie is with the children, because they have never faced

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Speaker 1: this before. Now, what's going to happen to them a

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Speaker 1: couple of years from now after they faced this for

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Speaker 1: so many years? I think this is going to be

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Speaker 1: traumatizing for you know, generations actually generations of children, generations

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Speaker 1: of young people. I just you know, when we talk

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Speaker 1: about a trauma, we're talking about, you know, a life

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Speaker 1: and death event that happens where suddenly you know you're

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Speaker 1: going along and normal and suddenly you're in a life

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Speaker 1: threatening scenario or situation. Could be a near it could

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Speaker 1: be a near miss on the highway, it could be

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Speaker 1: an accident, it could be witnessing something. And um, I

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Speaker 1: think that, you know, because we're dealing with this pandemic

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Speaker 1: which has escalating into horrifying long term damage to people's health.

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Speaker 1: I think in children and young people growing up will

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Speaker 1: have this as an imprint, just like our parents and

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Speaker 1: grandparents grew up with the poverty of the depression and

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Speaker 1: it became an imprint. It becomes a lens through which

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Speaker 1: you look at the future. I think that that we

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Speaker 1: will be also probably biochemically changed. Our brains will process

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Speaker 1: danger in different ways now because we never we were

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Speaker 1: safe from experiencing something like this until the last two years,

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Speaker 1: and now everybody is aware of that there's this bio

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Speaker 1: threat that's kind of in the air, and the as

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Speaker 1: I said, the helplessness of not knowing what to do,

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Speaker 1: not not We can't know. Nobody seems to know how

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Speaker 1: to make it go away, or how to treat it,

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Speaker 1: or how to help people who've been sick. Now, going

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Speaker 1: into year three, about thirty percent of people who get

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Speaker 1: COVID end up with long term or permanent health problems,

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Speaker 1: serious held problems, disability for many because of COVID. And

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Speaker 1: it's really quite terrifying. Is that what a long hauler

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Speaker 1: is someone who's been faced with longer situations with COVID. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's um they call it, I mean the technical the

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Speaker 1: technical term for it, but it's described by the NIH

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Speaker 1: as a constellation of symptoms. So if you once you

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Speaker 1: come through the acute respiratory illness phase UM, it can

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Speaker 1: start to show up, you know, a month or two

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Speaker 1: months or several months later as chronic fatigue, neuropathy or

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Speaker 1: nerve pain, brain fog, difficulty concentrating, sometimes continuing shortness of breath,

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Speaker 1: nervous nervous neurological disorders liked UM and PTSD. Yes, of

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Speaker 1: course PTSD. Absolutely, it's almost like the same symptoms UH similar,

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Speaker 1: very similar, but there there it also affects UH. There's

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Speaker 1: new research that shows it can affect the lining of

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Speaker 1: the heart. Actually very early on, it can cause inflammation

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Speaker 1: in the brain. I mean, this is this is a

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Speaker 1: severely deadly virus UH in many of its manifestations. And

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Speaker 1: of course there are many people who get over it

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Speaker 1: very quickly, and they're very quick to dismiss it as

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Speaker 1: having you know, no no seriousness at all, and so

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Speaker 1: it's you know, it's it's kind of almost like the

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Speaker 1: weird randomness of it makes it so hard to comprehend.

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Speaker 1: Why do some people get it bad and others don't?

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Speaker 1: Is it their immune system or is there something else

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Speaker 1: I wish we knew. I mean, most of the people

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Speaker 1: who I've met and has been my privilege to spend

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Speaker 1: time with over the last few a couple of years

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Speaker 1: have been previously healthy. They had no serious health issues.

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Speaker 1: Many of them were active meditators, They practiced yoga, pilates,

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Speaker 1: eight organic food. Basically. You know that this level of

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Speaker 1: illness would seem to defy all of the studies that say,

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Speaker 1: if you want to live a long, healthy life, this

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Speaker 1: is what you should do. I know many people who

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Speaker 1: were doing everything that we're supposed to be doing for

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Speaker 1: decades and then came down with this and it went

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Speaker 1: from being a respiratory infection in the acute phase into

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Speaker 1: this kind of what they call long COVID or sequel

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Speaker 1: a post COVID sequel A is with the medical term

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Speaker 1: for it, and it's affecting you know, millions of people

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Speaker 1: in this country and around the world. Let's talk about

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Speaker 1: rage for a moment, Laurie. You said it's almost at

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Speaker 1: an epidemic stage. What is causing it beyond just the COVID.

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Speaker 1: What is COVID doing to the rage? You know, that's

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Speaker 1: a really interesting chicken and egg. I think you know,

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Speaker 1: there's there's a there's a suspicion. That's kind of growing people.

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Speaker 1: People are questioning all all sources of information from the

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Speaker 1: CDC that people on people on one side of the

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Speaker 1: spectrum on the other side of the spectrum. There's there's

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Speaker 1: so much stuff floating around and and people are i think,

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Speaker 1: just becoming suspicious of each other. So, you know, if

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Speaker 1: you're sitting on an airplane, for example, and you're sitting

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Speaker 1: next to somebody who's got their mask down below their

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Speaker 1: nose um, you know, if you're a passenger, you're unlikely

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Speaker 1: to ask the person to please adjust their masks. Even

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Speaker 1: the flight attendants will stand a few feet away and

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Speaker 1: look at that person and won't won't address it because

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Speaker 1: flight attendants are getting assaulted. Yeah, I mean it's crazy.

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Speaker 1: It's crazy, right, So so there's like this intimidation factor

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Speaker 1: where you don't want to um, you don't want to

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Speaker 1: raise any questions, or you don't want to ask the

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Speaker 1: person sitting next to you on a flight excuse me, sir,

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Speaker 1: could you please put your mask up in by the way,

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Speaker 1: are you vaccinated? Because if you ask that question, you know,

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Speaker 1: the whole airplane could break out in a fight. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's crazy. Are we going to get out of this. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we will, we will. I don't know when we're going

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Speaker 1: to get out of it, but we will definitely get

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Speaker 1: out of it. And you know, I think that there

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Speaker 1: are positive and a lot of a lot of teachings

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Speaker 1: or lessons in this crisis for us, both in terms

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Speaker 1: of as a country, as a culture, and I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, even humanity as a species. We need to

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Speaker 1: be able to come together and to be able to

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Speaker 1: support each other as we go through this, and I

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Speaker 1: think that that's that has to be one of the

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Speaker 1: things that we develop, support networks, communities. I know that

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Speaker 1: a lot of people are telling me that their their

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Speaker 1: friendships are deeper and more meaningful, their connections to family

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Speaker 1: are deeper and more meaningful. Somehow out of this, you know,

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Speaker 1: as Frank Snowden said in his eloquent paragraph, that people's

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Speaker 1: sense of mortality. When we have a sense of mortality,

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Speaker 1: it makes it gives life a different kind of meaning.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes people come through this because they feel more alive,

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Speaker 1: almost like an existential awakening that happens. You wrote the

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Speaker 1: Five Gifts right before the pandemic. What did you did

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Speaker 1: you see this coming? Well? I knew something was coming

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Speaker 1: I didn't know it was this. I think as a

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Speaker 1: New Yorker, whenever you know, you feel like something's in

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Speaker 1: the air or something's happening, you always kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: your first reference is, oh my god, you know what

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Speaker 1: if there's another nine to eleven. So, um, I did

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Speaker 1: kind of looking at the trends and I and I

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Speaker 1: write about these in the Five Gifts that we are

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Speaker 1: living in a turbulent cycle. And I was very much

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Speaker 1: aware that disasters of all kinds were increasing. We have

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Speaker 1: um natural disasters, we have environmental disasters, and we have

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Speaker 1: intentional disasters, which are usually considered like acts of terrorism

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Speaker 1: or um, you know, shootings, right, you know, mass shootings,

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Speaker 1: hostage taking, that kind of thing. But you know, this

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Speaker 1: one is so scrambled, like we don't know what kind

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Speaker 1: of disaster this is. And that increases that that it

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Speaker 1: exacerbates that sense of helplessness. But we don't know who

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Speaker 1: to blame. And you know, it's human to want to

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Speaker 1: put a face on the enemy, and this enemy is faceless.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we have no idea. It's invisible, it's amorphous,

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Speaker 1: it's deadly. We don't know where it's coming from. We

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Speaker 1: don't know where it's going but we will come through this,

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Speaker 1: and I think we can build a lot of strength

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Speaker 1: as a people by going through this with again with

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Speaker 1: these five gifts, which are humility, patients, empathy, forgiveness, and growth. Interesting,

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Speaker 1: we'll go through some of that. Is this happening worldwide? Yeah, oh,

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Speaker 1: it is happening worldwide. You know, we don't really hear

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Speaker 1: a lot about what's happening, you know, in other countries,

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Speaker 1: but they kind of muffle it from us. It's happening

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Speaker 1: all over the world. It's crazy. Now, what gets us

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Speaker 1: out of it? Well, I mean there's the you know,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm laughing because it's kind of ironic and

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Speaker 1: reading that that paragraph about the ubonic plague that lasted

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Speaker 1: for hundreds of years, and we can only hope that

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Speaker 1: this thing, you know, is not endemic for anywhere close

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Speaker 1: to them. If this was made in the lab and

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Speaker 1: I convinced it was, who knows how dangerous it is exactly? Well,

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Speaker 1: I tend to agree with you. I don't think it

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Speaker 1: behaves like a previous epidemics. But I would like to

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Speaker 1: kind of add a note of I guess reassurance is

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Speaker 1: that when we if we go back to age and HIV,

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Speaker 1: And I often say this to people. You know, it

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Speaker 1: took I don't know how many years, but it was

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Speaker 1: quite a few years between the time that the you know,

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Speaker 1: the age that age was identified to the time when

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Speaker 1: they began to develop medicines and pharmaceuticals and cocktails that

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Speaker 1: could used to prolong people's lives, when it stopped being

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Speaker 1: a death sentence. And I think that, you know, as

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Speaker 1: treatments are developed, both holistic and nutritional supplements and as

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Speaker 1: well as pharmaceutical treatments and some of the fear and

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Speaker 1: hysteria dies down, I think we'll start to stabilize. What

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Speaker 1: would you recommend is the most important thing people do

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Speaker 1: to calm down? Oh, I think the most important thing

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Speaker 1: that people should do. And I've been thinking about this

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Speaker 1: a lot. Find five minutes, five minute window sometime during

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Speaker 1: your day and close your eyes and go back to

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Speaker 1: a place and time when you felt relaxed and calm,

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Speaker 1: or when you were just having a good time. Maybe

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Speaker 1: you're on vacation, maybe you were hanging out with your pet,

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Speaker 1: and just close your eyes and step into that and

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Speaker 1: let yourself experience what it was like to see and

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Speaker 1: hear and feel being in that plane. And when you

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Speaker 1: do that, what you're doing is you're activating and accessing

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Speaker 1: the molecules of emotion that are actually healing and relaxing

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Speaker 1: and again grounding. And if you get into the habit

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Speaker 1: of doing that for five minutes a day, it's going

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Speaker 1: to help to reset your nervous system so that you

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Speaker 1: will have more sustainable energy and be less volatile throughout

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Speaker 1: the rest of the day. Listen to more Coast to

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Speaker 1: Coast AM every weeknight at one a m. Eastern and

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