WEBVTT - Crime & Punishment. Judge Goodman Talks to A&G

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<v Speaker 1>We talk a lot about crime and punishment on this

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<v Speaker 1>radio show, like a lot of people do in the country.

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<v Speaker 1>It's one of the top issues everywhere, all the time.

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<v Speaker 1>And Katie, Katie, Katie the news Lady. Her dad was

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<v Speaker 1>a judge, he's now a retired judge, and thought it

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<v Speaker 1>would be cool to talk to him at some length

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<v Speaker 1>about a whole bunch of different stuff. I'm gonna let

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<v Speaker 1>Katie introduce her own dad. Okay, Yes, judge in Oakland

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<v Speaker 1>for thirty three plus years.

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<v Speaker 2>Thirty three thirty three plus yep.

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<v Speaker 1>Known to some as Judge Larry Goodman, known to others

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<v Speaker 1>as LL Dog and Daddy O. So here he is here,

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<v Speaker 1>Come here, pops, Judge, thanks for coming back on the

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<v Speaker 1>Armstrong and Getty Show. Appreciated how you How you like

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<v Speaker 1>in retirement? By the way, not everybody adjusts well to retirement.

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<v Speaker 3>I love it. I love it.

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<v Speaker 2>No adjudgment problem.

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<v Speaker 3>No, Because it got to be a point where remember

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<v Speaker 3>Sunday nights when you were in school and you hated

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<v Speaker 3>Sunday nights because you had to go to school. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>never felt that until right before I retired, and it

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<v Speaker 3>was like I knew it was time at that point.

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<v Speaker 2>Interesting so you stuck around long enough. Yeah. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So before I get into some like specific questions I have,

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<v Speaker 1>do you think you have an overall takeaway from all

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<v Speaker 1>those years of being judge a judge just about society

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<v Speaker 1>and order and crime in general in Oakland?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, not so much overall. I mean, you see good people,

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<v Speaker 3>you see bad people. Oakland is particularly depressing at times,

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<v Speaker 3>just because it's it's overwhelming and the kind of cases

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<v Speaker 3>I did you just life was so cheap and there

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<v Speaker 3>was really no concert. There was consequences, but it didn't

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<v Speaker 3>seem to stop anybody from acting out. So but overall,

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<v Speaker 3>it's it's it's a job, just like everything else. The

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<v Speaker 3>only you feel like you're contributing a little bit by

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<v Speaker 3>being part of the judicial system or the justice system.

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<v Speaker 3>But outside of that, it's not like any shattering awareness

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<v Speaker 3>that I have.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, Well, do you think most people who commit crimes,

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<v Speaker 1>particularly bad crimes, it's because of they're just born to

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<v Speaker 1>be bad or do you think there's an environment they

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<v Speaker 1>came from?

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<v Speaker 3>I think most of them are. It's the environment. I

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<v Speaker 3>think it's life is cheap. Would you like to sell

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<v Speaker 3>burgers at McDonald's or sell drugs? And if you sell drugs,

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<v Speaker 3>you hang more gold, and you drive better cars. So

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<v Speaker 3>I think that's what I'll do. But there's a certain

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<v Speaker 3>risk involved in that, but I'm willing to take it.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's what they see, that's who their role models are,

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<v Speaker 3>and that's what they do.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know if you know the statistics on this,

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<v Speaker 1>but were the vast majority of people that would come

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<v Speaker 1>before you guilty found guilty?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh? Yeah, I had three three non I tried according

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<v Speaker 3>to my clerk, one hundred and seventeen murder trials. I

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<v Speaker 3>had three not guilty verdicts.

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<v Speaker 2>Really and in your opinion, do you think they were

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<v Speaker 2>not guilty?

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<v Speaker 3>One of them in a death penalty case, he was

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<v Speaker 3>definitely guilty.

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<v Speaker 2>The other two and it was found non guilty and

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<v Speaker 2>found out not guilty.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Interesting.

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<v Speaker 3>He killed both his sisters and tried to kill his parents.

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<v Speaker 3>But that's a long story for another day. But the

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<v Speaker 3>other two they probably did it, but the evidence wasn't

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<v Speaker 3>all that great.

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<v Speaker 1>But so most of the time, if specifically a murder

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<v Speaker 1>gets to a courtroom, they did it.

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<v Speaker 3>The chances are pretty good. I mean, they've gone through

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<v Speaker 3>the charging, the screening before the charging, they've gone through

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<v Speaker 3>a grand jury or a preliminary hearing. They've gone through

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<v Speaker 3>all the pre trial motions by that time, it's been

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<v Speaker 3>reviewed quite a few times, and so it may not

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<v Speaker 3>be a murder, it may not be a first degree murder,

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<v Speaker 3>it may be a second, it may be a manslaughter.

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<v Speaker 3>But they pretty sure that they killed somebody.

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<v Speaker 1>And I suppose because of limited resources and time, you know, money,

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<v Speaker 1>all that, you wouldn't pursue it unless you're pretty sure

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<v Speaker 1>they were guilty.

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<v Speaker 3>On the prosecution sign In Alameda County, where I worked,

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<v Speaker 3>we had used to have not anymore. They had one

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<v Speaker 3>of the best DA's offices in the country, and so

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<v Speaker 3>there was a lot of checks and balance, and nobody

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<v Speaker 3>really went to trial unless they were pretty sure they

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<v Speaker 3>had the right person, although I will say I did

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<v Speaker 3>one trial. After about three witnesses, the DA came in

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<v Speaker 3>and said, you know, I think we got this one wrong.

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<v Speaker 3>We're going to dismiss the case.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, So you weren't in the era or place of

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<v Speaker 1>these das who don't want to charge anybody with anything

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<v Speaker 1>to try to make some sort of point about society.

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<v Speaker 3>No, that's one of the other reasons I'm glad I'm out,

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<v Speaker 3>because i'd be getting in trouble all the time.

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<v Speaker 1>So how would you have handled that as a judge,

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<v Speaker 1>or would you have had any role in it whatsoever?

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<v Speaker 1>If your local, if you got a gascon or whoever

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<v Speaker 1>that just doesn't want to prosecute crime.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I mean, eventually what happens. I have a friend

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<v Speaker 3>of mine who's still sitting on the bench and he's

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<v Speaker 3>been challenged by the DA because he wouldn't go along

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<v Speaker 3>with all of her issues or all the things she

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<v Speaker 3>was trying to do. He kept denying motions to strike

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<v Speaker 3>priors or strike that, so they finally filed a blanket challenge.

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<v Speaker 3>So he went from criminal into probate.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh so that's interesting. Back to the violent crime.

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<v Speaker 1>So you you've had a lot of violent criminals come

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<v Speaker 1>before you do they tend to regret what they did

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<v Speaker 1>at the point that they're in a courtroom. And I

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<v Speaker 1>don't mean like regret it because they got caught, but

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<v Speaker 1>if they could go back, they wish they hadn't done it.

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<v Speaker 3>Very few, very few. I mean, I'm sure some of

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<v Speaker 3>them deep inside might have felt that way, but it's

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<v Speaker 3>kind of a sign of weakness if they do that.

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<v Speaker 3>I most of them kind of maintained the aura of

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<v Speaker 3>I'm a criminal and I didn't do it, but you're

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<v Speaker 3>gonna and if I did do it, you got to

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<v Speaker 3>prove it. But I'm not going to say I did

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<v Speaker 3>it and I'm sorry. Once in a while it's sentencing,

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<v Speaker 3>they will address the family of the victim and say

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<v Speaker 3>I'm sorry, But not up until that point.

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<v Speaker 1>You said, these people live in a world where life

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<v Speaker 1>is cheap. Expound on that a little bit. They just

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<v Speaker 1>for some reason, it because of their youth or environment.

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<v Speaker 1>They just don't get what.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't think. They think that they're going to live

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<v Speaker 3>that long because they see a lot of their peers

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<v Speaker 3>get shot or get killed, and so it's kind of

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<v Speaker 3>like a live why you can go fast and go

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<v Speaker 3>hard because you're not going to be here that long.

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<v Speaker 3>And so you look at me funny while I'm standing

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<v Speaker 3>on the street corner and I come back and I

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<v Speaker 3>shoot you, because that's the kind of a unwritten rule

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<v Speaker 3>of the streets. You don't disrespect somebody without having consequences,

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<v Speaker 3>And people get shot over the dumbest things. Or I'll

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<v Speaker 3>shoot at you and I'll hit a twelve year old

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<v Speaker 3>girl across the street because I miss. But that's collateral damage,

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<v Speaker 3>and I really don't think about it. I just move on.

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<v Speaker 3>And that was just kind of the mindset that we

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<v Speaker 3>saw a lot of.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you have people come into your courtroom with as

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<v Speaker 1>flimsy a reason for killing somebody as you just described.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh sure, Oh yeah, lots of times.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, give me some examples.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, we had the gun well, I used to call

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<v Speaker 3>it the gunfight at the ok Corral. It was the

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<v Speaker 3>gunfight ninety eight the needs in Oakland, and one gang

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<v Speaker 3>got disrespected by another game because somebody disrespected the guy's car.

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<v Speaker 3>He said that car looks like this and looks like that,

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<v Speaker 3>and it was his pride and joy. So one group

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<v Speaker 3>of kids is in the liquor store buying liquor, and

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<v Speaker 3>this other group rolls up and opens fire with semiautomatic

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<v Speaker 3>weapons and kills three people. The other gang he finally

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<v Speaker 3>gets their guns out and shoots back, and one of

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<v Speaker 3>them misses, and the bullet goes across the street and

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<v Speaker 3>hits a guy getting gas and bodges in his neck

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<v Speaker 3>and he has a stroke and he loses his ability

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<v Speaker 3>to talk. And all the people that we did the

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<v Speaker 3>trial for, they had no remorse whatsoever. Matter of fact,

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<v Speaker 3>I had to keep pulling this one kid out because

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<v Speaker 3>he kept disrespecting and saying rude things to the one

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<v Speaker 3>of the victims mothers who came to address the court.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, and how old were these people?

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<v Speaker 3>Unfortunately, when he did it, he was seventeen, which is

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<v Speaker 3>entitled him to have another resentencing under the new laws

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<v Speaker 3>in California. I sentenced him to sixty five years to

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<v Speaker 3>life or something like that, but that he was seventeen

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<v Speaker 3>when he did the crime, so he was entitled to

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<v Speaker 3>be re sentenced. I don't know what he got again,

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<v Speaker 3>but do.

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<v Speaker 2>You keep track of people after you sentenced him?

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<v Speaker 3>The only I kept track of two people, and they

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<v Speaker 3>weren't even murder cases. They were multiple sexual assault cases.

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<v Speaker 3>And one one guy was a retired law enforcement officer

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<v Speaker 3>who continually raped his stepdaughter. And he came up for

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<v Speaker 3>parole and I was asked to write a letter, and

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<v Speaker 3>I'd never done it before, but he actually raped his

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<v Speaker 3>step son, who kind of gave him. He gave himself

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<v Speaker 3>up to protect his step daughter, and the son ended

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<v Speaker 3>up killing himself. So I wrote a letter saying he

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<v Speaker 3>should I sentenced him to ninety nine years, but he's

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<v Speaker 3>now in his sixty so he's eligible for elder parole

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<v Speaker 3>or whatever they call it. And I wrote a letter

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<v Speaker 3>saying I sentenced him for that long they didn't ever

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<v Speaker 3>getting out, and he didn't know his step son had

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<v Speaker 3>killed himself. So once he found that out, he withdrew

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<v Speaker 3>his request for a parole and he's still in there.

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<v Speaker 1>So I've always believed that on a lot of the

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<v Speaker 1>sexual stuff, their brains don't work right. They were they

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<v Speaker 1>were they were, they're born in such a way or whatever,

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<v Speaker 1>their brains don't work right, as opposed to the other

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<v Speaker 1>thing you were talking about, the you know, you grew

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<v Speaker 1>up in an environment where you run with gangs in

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<v Speaker 1>the more environmental than your brain doesn't work well.

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<v Speaker 3>The sexual the in home sexual predators like this guy,

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<v Speaker 3>Ron Roy Chass, I still remember his name. He's probably

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<v Speaker 3>not wired right. But some of them are just mean,

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<v Speaker 3>vicious people that it's you know, rape is not about sex,

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<v Speaker 3>it's about violence, about control, and so some of these

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<v Speaker 3>people are just violent sexual predators who just like to

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<v Speaker 3>inflict that kind of pain on people.

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<v Speaker 1>How how do you And this is tough for cops

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<v Speaker 1>and prosecutors and people work in prisons, all kinds of

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<v Speaker 1>different people. How do you keep your sense of humanity

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<v Speaker 1>in that most of us are good and most of

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<v Speaker 1>us don't do that.

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<v Speaker 2>When you're encountering these people all the time, it's got

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<v Speaker 2>to wear on you.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Well, I was lucky enough to have Patty and

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<v Speaker 3>Katie and come home and be able to, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>coach Katie and sports and hang out with her and

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<v Speaker 3>my wife, and you just kind of leave it at work.

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<v Speaker 3>And I don't think I tried real hard not to

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<v Speaker 3>bring any of that stuff home, even when it was

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<v Speaker 3>a high publicity stuff, when we didn't talk about it,

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<v Speaker 3>we didn't watch it on the news or read the newspapers.

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<v Speaker 3>You just try to when you leave the office, you

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<v Speaker 3>just try to leave it there because it will wear

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<v Speaker 3>on you. I mean, I had a couple of cases

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<v Speaker 3>that to this day I still don't like to talk

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<v Speaker 3>about them. But most of the time you're able to

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<v Speaker 3>leave it at work.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, that's interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>We're talking to Katie's dad, who is a was a

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<v Speaker 1>judge for a very long time, is retired.

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<v Speaker 2>Now what do you do? Mostly? You fish? You hunt? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>You what do you what do you do?

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<v Speaker 3>I work out, I play, guitar, trying to get back

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<v Speaker 3>into golf, which will probably shorten my lifespan exactly. We

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<v Speaker 3>still have a boat that we keep in Craplifornia that

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<v Speaker 3>we go out and stay on for a while.

0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:15.320
<v Speaker 1>To that story, we got to talk about you getting

0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:18.680
<v Speaker 1>robbed in our old hometown and what that was like,

0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:21.720
<v Speaker 1>because this is just a story about the lawlessness of

0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:23.080
<v Speaker 1>some areas of the country.

0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:25.160
<v Speaker 2>You came back the other day, tell us what happened.

0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:29.520
<v Speaker 3>Well, we keep our boat in Alameda because we one

0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:31.959
<v Speaker 3>thing we do miss is the ocean and stuff like that.

0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:35.040
<v Speaker 3>So we were having some people to go out on

0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:36.960
<v Speaker 3>the boat for the Blue Angels. So we were on

0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:38.800
<v Speaker 3>our way to the grocery store to get some things.

0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:41.079
<v Speaker 3>We go out to the parking lot and I look,

0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:44.520
<v Speaker 3>and I said, honey, our tires are gone. And there

0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:48.120
<v Speaker 3>was the Toyota Corolla sitting. They brought their own blocks,

0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:50.200
<v Speaker 3>so there was blocks under each of the doors, and

0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:53.400
<v Speaker 3>they left the lug nuts, but all four tires were gone.

0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:55.480
<v Speaker 2>With the wheels. Yeah, tires.

0:11:56.000 --> 0:12:00.000
<v Speaker 1>So so you're back in California, which you fled because

0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:02.280
<v Speaker 1>of the crime and the homelessness and the taxes and

0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:04.520
<v Speaker 1>all that sort of stuff. You come back briefly and

0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:06.800
<v Speaker 1>your round car gets all four wheels stolen off of it.

0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:08.839
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I'm like a junkie. I had to come back

0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:10.960
<v Speaker 3>from my crime fix. I guess that is.

0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:15.920
<v Speaker 1>An amazing story and so emblematic of why you can't

0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:18.400
<v Speaker 1>hardly ever get a U haul in California because there

0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:19.760
<v Speaker 1>are so many people fleeing the state.

0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:22.400
<v Speaker 3>And the funny part about is the lady that rented

0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:24.520
<v Speaker 3>us the car, she said, now, you'd be careful because

0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.200
<v Speaker 3>they'll steal everything. And when you go get gas, you

0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:29.560
<v Speaker 3>keep your eye open because they'll break the passenger door

0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:31.600
<v Speaker 3>window and steal your purse. I mean, she went through

0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:33.600
<v Speaker 3>this whole litany of things that were going to happen,

0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:36.440
<v Speaker 3>and sure enough, the day after that happened to us.

0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:37.240
<v Speaker 2>Unbelievable.

0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:40.760
<v Speaker 1>Back to you judging and crime and punishment and what

0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:43.440
<v Speaker 1>you've learned over all the decades of being in the system.

0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:47.720
<v Speaker 1>I've always been I'm a big believer in the US

0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:50.680
<v Speaker 1>justice system, and I've always just I've never been afraid

0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:53.080
<v Speaker 1>of being falsely accused of anything like that, because I

0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:56.800
<v Speaker 1>just feel like the justice system generally works, is that

0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:59.719
<v Speaker 1>your assessment after decades of being involved in it the

0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:02.040
<v Speaker 1>vast majority of the time, we get it right.

0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:04.800
<v Speaker 3>I think so absolutely. I mean, like I said, we

0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:08.000
<v Speaker 3>were always a little bit better than a lot of

0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:10.720
<v Speaker 3>places in Alameda County. But yeah, I think for the

0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:12.520
<v Speaker 3>most part it works the way it's supposed to.

0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:17.160
<v Speaker 1>And for places that it doesn't work as well, what

0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:18.040
<v Speaker 1>would cause that?

0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:25.080
<v Speaker 3>Just an overload of cases. Sometimes things get shuffled through

0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:28.439
<v Speaker 3>that shouldn't get shuffled through. There are places where based

0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:31.040
<v Speaker 3>upon how you look and how you act, sometimes you

0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:36.560
<v Speaker 3>get charged. They're built in prejudices in some places. I

0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:40.120
<v Speaker 3>taught at the National Judges College in Reno one day

0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:43.079
<v Speaker 3>and the judges from Louisiana, a certain part of Louisiana

0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:45.320
<v Speaker 3>came up and we're kind of making fun of us

0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:47.880
<v Speaker 3>from California about how long it took us to pick

0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:51.160
<v Speaker 3>juris and death penalty cases and everything, and really so

0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.400
<v Speaker 3>it's just kind of a different mindset.

0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:55.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I should ask you about that.

0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:57.800
<v Speaker 1>California has the death penalty but doesn't actually put anybody

0:13:57.840 --> 0:13:59.880
<v Speaker 1>to death. The leading cause of death on death or

0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:03.839
<v Speaker 1>in California is old age. We taxpayers spend gazillions of

0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:07.360
<v Speaker 1>dollars on this and nobody actually dies are you four

0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:08.559
<v Speaker 1>or against the death penalty?

0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:11.160
<v Speaker 3>Oh? I was for it. I sentenced nine people to

0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:13.880
<v Speaker 3>death I think, and one of them die to liver failure.

0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:15.360
<v Speaker 3>The rest of them will probably outlive me.

0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:17.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, that's the problem with it. We're not getting it.

0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:19.440
<v Speaker 1>Nobody's dying, so I don't like paying for it. I

0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:22.440
<v Speaker 1>don't mind capital punishment. I'm against it for the it does.

0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:24.160
<v Speaker 1>It's not practical if nobody's dying.

0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:24.800
<v Speaker 2>Standpoint.

0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:26.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, if we're not going to do it, we shouldn't

0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:27.120
<v Speaker 3>have it.

0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:28.240
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for coming on.

0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:30.040
<v Speaker 1>I just want to ask you some questions about your

0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:32.720
<v Speaker 1>experience as a judge, and whenever a big case hits,

0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:34.080
<v Speaker 1>we'll go to you for expertise.

0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:38.200
<v Speaker 3>As always, I appreciate it. Thanks Jack, you bet, you

0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:40.120
<v Speaker 3>Armstrong and Getty