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Speaker 1: Body dots, but Joseph's gotten more Darlington County, South Carolina.

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Speaker 1: I think that most people would, particularly down here in

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Speaker 1: the South, when you say Darlington, the first thing that

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Speaker 1: pops to mind is that odd little racetrack that they

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Speaker 1: have in Darlington where NASCAR has been running for years

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Speaker 1: and years and years, and there's several names that are

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Speaker 1: applied to that course, and it's oddly shaped, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of shaped like an egg. But it's one of those places,

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Speaker 1: I think for those that are NASCAR followers. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of like the Masters is for golfers. It's one of

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Speaker 1: those places that people return to year after year, and

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Speaker 1: the term tradition has been applied to it for a

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Speaker 1: long time. And in NASCAR in particular, you know, they're

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Speaker 1: really big things like super speedways. This is far from it.

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Speaker 1: But you know, just like with every small locale on

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Speaker 1: the planet, and certainly in a small county in the

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Speaker 1: rural South, they all have their stories. They all have

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Speaker 1: stories about things that have happened that people only talk

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Speaker 1: about in hushed tones. Today, we're going to be discussing

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Speaker 1: a case just like this that actually originates in Darlington County.

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Speaker 1: It's about a lady that has been missing for some

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Speaker 1: time and about an old abandoned well, I'm Joseph Scott

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Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body Backs. Dave. You have ever

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Speaker 1: gotten off the eggs and an I twenty heading east

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Speaker 1: and got off there and driven through Darlington in that area?

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Speaker 2: Joe, I've never actually been to Darlington. I know there's

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Speaker 2: the Drace what track there. I've been on the exit

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Speaker 2: you're talking about off I twenty. We were on a

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Speaker 2: family vacation years ago and had car trouble, had stopped

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Speaker 2: there to take care of it, but never actually been

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Speaker 2: in a Darlington beautiful area though, about sixty miles northeast

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Speaker 2: of Columbia, South Carolina, west of Florence. That's the geographic

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Speaker 2: area we're talking about. And the person today, her name

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Speaker 2: is Sharma Fealkel Shamra, is forty nine years old. She

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Speaker 2: is one of these people that everybody loves, Everybody has

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Speaker 2: something nice to say about her. Can't find anybody really

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Speaker 2: to say anything bad about her, not that you want

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Speaker 2: to find that, but Sharma Fealkel went missing just last time.

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Speaker 2: Anybody remembers seeing her around September the twenty fifth. And

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Speaker 2: one of the things I always find fascinating. Joe's who

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Speaker 2: reports the person missing. If they're involved in a romantic

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Speaker 2: relationship with somebody, I expect that person to be the

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Speaker 2: one to report them.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 2: Shamra Felkel's family and friends reported her missing. Her daughter's

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Speaker 2: not Daniel Peel, her significant other and a romantic relationship.

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Speaker 2: So that's where all of this starts, with them reporting

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Speaker 2: her missing October seventh. It's been two weeks since they've

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Speaker 2: lasted her. We need help, And that's where it begins.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you wonder, you know, you know, as I say

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Speaker 1: in South where are the police? You know at this

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Speaker 1: point in time, and that that's something that is actually

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Speaker 1: that has actually been stated by the family because the

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Speaker 1: family felt as though that And listen, listen, I have

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Speaker 1: yet to encounter a family that felt like that not

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Speaker 1: enough manpower or not enough shoulders have been put to

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Speaker 1: the stone if you will, to you know, to move

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Speaker 1: the case ahead, because family always wants to take full

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Speaker 1: advantage of every resource that's out there. And you know,

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Speaker 1: they're sitting there and they're thinking, well, where in the

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Speaker 1: world issue she just does? It doesn't fit the pattern

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Speaker 1: of her life. This is not something that you would

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Speaker 1: commonly see her do where she just kind of vanishes

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Speaker 1: off the radar completely and you can't locate her anywhere whatsoever.

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Speaker 1: And of course, listen, the longer the longer something like

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Speaker 1: this extends out for a family, you know, you're thinking,

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Speaker 1: they're thinking the worst, the worst has has occurred because

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Speaker 1: it goes outside the boundaries of normal behavior for this person.

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Speaker 1: Because most of us, most of us are kind of predictable,

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Speaker 1: aren't we. David, I am. I can speak to myself.

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Speaker 1: I know what I'm going to do every single day.

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Speaker 1: I'm getting up at five point thirty in the morning

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Speaker 1: and Kimmy and I are going to sit and you

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Speaker 1: know in our you know, mema and papal chairs, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the sun room. I'm sorry, Gammy, she'll get upset

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Speaker 1: of a color mema Ammy and papal chairs. And I'm

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Speaker 1: drinking my coffee and I'm not doing anything. It's the

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Speaker 1: one time a day when my phone's not going off,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna sit in my chair and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: drink my coffee. Well, that's that's just kind of standard, fair,

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Speaker 1: isn't it. And all of us have patterns like this

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Speaker 1: that we adhere to, and families have an innate ability

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Speaker 1: to sense this because unlike the police, they look at

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Speaker 1: it through a completely different lens. This is when Mamma

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Speaker 1: gets up. This is when this is who she calls.

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Speaker 1: Because there's certain people on her list that she may

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Speaker 1: or may not call on a regular basis. There are

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Speaker 1: those that you know that she's gonna call like clockwork.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm up, honey, I'm moving around, or you know,

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Speaker 1: this and that and the other. And when you start

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Speaker 1: to break that norm, then families get They get really

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Speaker 1: really agitated very quickly because they don't feel like, over

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Speaker 1: over period of time, that people are doing what they

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Speaker 1: have to do. They don't. Their view is that the

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Speaker 1: police don't share the same level of desieration that they share.

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Speaker 2: Dave, I guess that is a fairly common theme where

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Speaker 2: families believe that they're not being given the attention they need,

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Speaker 2: that they're not being taken as seriously as they should

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Speaker 2: because they're loved one that's missing, while police have multiple

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Speaker 2: people that they're dealing with.

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Speaker 1: Yeah it is, and you know, and the police one

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Speaker 1: of the big questions if you finally do catch their

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Speaker 1: eye with a case like this and listen, police are

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Speaker 1: called all the time, and I mean all the time

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Speaker 1: so and so is missing, and after a period of time,

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Speaker 1: I think that there's kind of this callous that's built up,

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Speaker 1: not callous ness, but there's a callous that's built up

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Speaker 1: in the brains of the police where they say, okay,

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Speaker 1: you know, well, first off, is this person known to us?

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Speaker 1: Has has there ever been a domestic squabble? Uh? Is

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Speaker 1: it somebody that is legitimately missing or do they just

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Speaker 1: not want to be found? And there's a lot of cases,

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Speaker 1: you know, like that that are floating around, you know,

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Speaker 1: out there. Uh. I think about this horrible case involving

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Speaker 1: this this young lady from uh from Hawaii, you know

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Speaker 1: now that you know our father god, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: you know, wound up taking his own life. Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 1: And it's it's certainly, it's it's certainly something that just

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Speaker 1: breaks the heart, you know when when you think about this.

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Speaker 1: And in that particular case, she wasn't missing at all.

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Speaker 1: While she was missing, she's missing in sense that her

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Speaker 1: family missed her. But now they're saying that it was

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Speaker 1: an intentional walk away. So those cases do actually exist, Dave,

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Speaker 1: But this is, you know, miss Felkel is she's not

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Speaker 1: some young co ed. Okay, She's lived a life. She's

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Speaker 1: lived a life here in this county, in Darlington County.

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Speaker 1: She's got kin folks that are everywhere. She's got daughters

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Speaker 1: that love her and want to know what happened to her.

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Speaker 1: It's not like she's flighty to the point where she's

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Speaker 1: just gonna hop hop in a car, get in a

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Speaker 1: car with a stranger and just suddenly leave and start

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Speaker 1: a new life. Her life was there, and the trick is,

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Speaker 1: I think probably is to get the police on board

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Speaker 1: to help you out. But in this case, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: the police that actually took the steps to locate this

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Speaker 1: poor missing woman who was actually family and friends. You know,

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Speaker 1: when you're walking through the woods, and I've spent a

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Speaker 1: lot of time, you know, out in rural areas of

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Speaker 1: the course in my life, you never know what you're

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Speaker 1: going to come across. I think one time I was

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Speaker 1: out with buddies and we discovered an old abandoned graveyard

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Speaker 1: that had trees that were just that had overgrown the

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Speaker 1: entire thing. And what was really creepy about it. When

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Speaker 1: we're walking I know that other people probably were aware,

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Speaker 1: but when we were kids. We didn't know that. And

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Speaker 1: what really creeped us out, Dave, is that when we

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Speaker 1: were kind of walking through the area, a lot of

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Speaker 1: the graves had collapsed on their self and you could

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Speaker 1: actually look down, you know, into that space. Now most

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Speaker 1: of it had had deposits of dirt, you know, through

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Speaker 1: through a little washing of earth over a period of time.

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Speaker 1: You couldn't actually see a body. But it's just in

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Speaker 1: particularly in a young young person's mind, you're thinking about, Wow,

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Speaker 1: what what lies just beneath that? You know when you

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Speaker 1: were a kid, you know, that's that was something that

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Speaker 1: was quite quite terrifying. And I one of my friends

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Speaker 1: later went back out uh in the middle of the

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Speaker 1: night with another friend and they walked through that graveyard

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Speaker 1: again and one of our friends stepped through one of

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Speaker 1: the graves and you know, up to his hip and

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Speaker 1: according to our other friend, he was screaming like a

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Speaker 1: banshee at that point in time, and pulled him out.

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Speaker 1: They ex filled out of there pretty quickly. But one

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Speaker 1: of my big fears out out in rural areas, I

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Speaker 1: think where you know that there were old home places

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Speaker 1: are abandoned wells and you don't know where they are

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Speaker 1: And that's a terrifying prospect because we're not talking about

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Speaker 1: a grave. You know, you think about gray well six

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Speaker 1: feet down. Okay, I could probably survive that, all right,

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Speaker 1: But you talk about stepping off in an abandoned well.

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Speaker 1: I mean, how many stories are there that are out

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Speaker 1: there where people have fallen down wells over the years.

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Speaker 1: And dude, when you fall through maybe some kind of

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Speaker 1: brittle covering on top of an old well, maybe plywood

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Speaker 1: or something that was put there years and years ago,

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Speaker 1: and it's decayed. Oh my lord, you're talking about a fall, man,

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Speaker 1: I mean a long fall. And if you're out there

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Speaker 1: by yourself, I hope you got your life in a way,

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Speaker 1: because it's going to be really hard to recover from this.

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Speaker 1: And that's a terrified I don't walk around terrified, you know,

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Speaker 1: like that, but it's certainly something that's in the back

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Speaker 1: of my mind.

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Speaker 2: I'm a little freaking out over the abandoned cemetery and

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Speaker 2: barely aught about them, you know, of.

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Speaker 1: Oh they're out there, Yeah, yeah, they're out there. We

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Speaker 1: it's amazing how many how many families have had graveyards

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Speaker 1: at old home places and the home is gone now

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Speaker 1: and the cemetery is there. Actually, yeah, it's not. Just

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Speaker 1: so folks know, there's a difference between a graveyard and cemetery.

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Speaker 1: A graveyard associated with a church. A cemetery is like

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Speaker 1: I think it comes from the Greek. It's like a

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Speaker 1: public sleeping place or something like that. And that's generally.

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Speaker 1: Cemeteries are associated with municipalities, our governmental organizations, and graveyards

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Speaker 1: are supposed to be on consecrated ground. And so you

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Speaker 1: know what has always there's a church not too far

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Speaker 1: from here, and I'm sure they're lovely people, but I've

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Speaker 1: never been a fan of where the graveyard actually extends

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Speaker 1: up to the front door of a church. There's just

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Speaker 1: something about that when you step out of the front

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Speaker 1: door of the church and you've got to walk through

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Speaker 1: the graves to get to the church. There's just something

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Speaker 1: about that that's kind of creepy to me. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: I digress. Yeah, yeah, well I teach that actually in

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Speaker 1: my Clandestine Graves class at JSU, And yeah, yeah, there are.

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Speaker 1: And that's the big thing because with graveyards in particular,

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Speaker 1: you've kind of got if the church stays in place. Now,

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Speaker 1: we've got a lot of churches that are shutting down,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of fascinating. The church offers perpetual care.

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Speaker 1: So if the church goes toes up, you're thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: who's going to take care of the graves? And a

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Speaker 1: lot of these graves go back, you know, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: some might go back to colonial times or just after

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Speaker 1: colonial times. These things need constant care. My family has

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Speaker 1: got a graveyard in North Louisiana, and there too, I

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Speaker 1: know we've got we've got at least one Revolutionary War

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Speaker 1: veteran that is buried in there. And Dave, if you

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Speaker 1: if you put me in a car right now and

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Speaker 1: try to get me to that location, I couldn't do

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Speaker 1: it because it's in such an isolated area. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's very isolating. This is a big, big graveyard. It's

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Speaker 1: a family graveyard, so graveyard, I guess I'm kind of

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Speaker 1: talking out on both sides of my mouth. The family,

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Speaker 1: the family plot, if you will, that's supposed to be

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Speaker 1: taken care of by the family. Sometimes they go the

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Speaker 1: way of the Dodo bird. But you've still got all

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Speaker 1: these graves. In the same way with home home places,

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Speaker 1: there were no you know, back when people first settled locations,

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Speaker 1: there's not there were plats of land, but there were

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Speaker 1: no codes or anything like that. You know, people, hard

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Speaker 1: scrabble people build these, you know, build these structures to

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Speaker 1: protect their family. And what do you have to have have,

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Speaker 1: David Well, one of the basic components of living a

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Speaker 1: life is to have access to water and just below well,

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Speaker 1: I'll say just below in geologic terms, it is just below. Uh,

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Speaker 1: if you're digging the well, it's not just below, it's

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Speaker 1: really deep. But you have to have uh, you have

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Speaker 1: to get into that water table in order to draw

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Speaker 1: water up. And it's either in the old fashioned style

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Speaker 1: where you think about the traditional you know, uh, Jack

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Speaker 1: and Jill kind of well, you know, the stone thing

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Speaker 1: with a roof over it and all that stuff, and

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Speaker 1: you're yeah, yeah, and you're you're bringing up the water

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Speaker 1: that way, or you yeah, please don't go there, I

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Speaker 1: hate snakes. Or you've got a pumping apparatus in the

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Speaker 1: bottom that's going to draw that water up and it's

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Speaker 1: going to supply, you know, uh supply. And most of

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Speaker 1: the time you're getting into the water table at that

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Speaker 1: point in time because there's the there is a there

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Speaker 1: is a level beneath the land where beneath the surface

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Speaker 1: that has a water table where there's accessible water down

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Speaker 1: in that area. And that's if you've never seen somebody

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Speaker 1: that uses a divining rod, which is kind of a

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Speaker 1: cool thing to see. My grandfather had a buddy of

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Speaker 1: his that was a diviner that would go out and

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Speaker 1: find water, and he found water. It's not like and

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Speaker 1: it's a weird thing, you know, to really see. You know,

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Speaker 1: as they say down in the Louisiana'm fred he's gonna

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Speaker 1: put the Greek grey on me. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: forces he's talking to. So you know, I think about that.

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Speaker 1: I think about, well, you know, how do you know

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Speaker 1: that the water can be sourced there? But many of

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Speaker 1: these wells are abandoned. And the reason I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: this is that in order for you to get rid

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Speaker 1: of something in an old well, Dave, you have to

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Speaker 1: know that the old well exists. And so if you're

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Speaker 1: an investigator and an old well is involved, well, out

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Speaker 1: of all the people in the world, who in the

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Speaker 1: world is going to know that this big hole in

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Speaker 1: the ground, which is by the way, abandoned, Who in

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Speaker 1: the world is going to know that it's there?

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Speaker 2: Dave?

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Speaker 1: And for police, I think that that's a huge starting place.

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Speaker 1: And I think that in the veilcal case, that is

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Speaker 1: a huge starting place here. As often I have stated, Dave,

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Speaker 1: one of the big shocks to any to any human

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Speaker 1: is to find another human deceased. It's something, It's a

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Speaker 1: benchmark in someone's life that you never forget. And you know,

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Speaker 1: that's actually a question I ask my students at jack

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Speaker 1: State when I teach my medical Legal Death Investigation class.

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Speaker 1: I'll say, well, first off, I'll ask them, have any

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Speaker 1: of you guys in the class ever experienced to death

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Speaker 1: in your family? Because that's important. I think it's important

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Speaker 1: because many either college kids, many never have. And then

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Speaker 1: I will ask have any of you people ever found

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Speaker 1: someone deceased? And surprisingly, generally, every other semester I teach

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Speaker 1: this class every semester, surprisingly I will about every other

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Speaker 1: semester I will get one or two kids that have

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Speaker 1: found a body. And it's generally a relative, you know

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Speaker 1: that they walked in and found you know, Grandma deceased

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Speaker 1: or something like that. But every now and then I

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Speaker 1: will I have had kids that have found bodies and

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Speaker 1: it's something. And the thing about is when I will

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Speaker 1: ask them, I'll ask their permission to demand sharing this

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Speaker 1: with a class because it's a traumatic thing and they're

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Speaker 1: more than willing to share. Yeah, we were walking and

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Speaker 1: you can tell the memories are so vivid that it

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Speaker 1: just breathed life into it and suddenly, and nothing I

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Speaker 1: say is going to compare to what this kid says

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Speaker 1: in class, because look, many kids today are so distracted

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Speaker 1: in the world that we live in. Instantaneously their head

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Speaker 1: you see their heads turn, and this one student has

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Speaker 1: a full undivided attention of everybody else in the class.

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Speaker 1: And it's impactful, it really is. So in this case,

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Speaker 1: in miss Felkel's case, please tell me who precisely found

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Speaker 1: her remains.

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Speaker 2: You know, precisely who found the remains is a friend

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Speaker 2: of the family. And here's how you know it went

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Speaker 2: down where the tip is not called the police. It's

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Speaker 2: called to the daughters, this anonymous tip. And then the

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Speaker 2: daughters don't call police with the anonymous tip. They call

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Speaker 2: a friend and say, hey, this is what the anonymous

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Speaker 2: tipster just told us. Would you go see if you

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Speaker 2: can find mama. That's how it all happened. And then

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Speaker 2: the family friend finds Shameras remains and calls law enforcement.

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Speaker 2: Then they come out there and lock down the site.

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Speaker 2: But I'm wondering, what condition are we going to find

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Speaker 2: the remains of Shamra Felkel. It cannot be good. She's

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Speaker 2: been gone. She's been gone since late September. We're now

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Speaker 2: in the first week of December, so two months she's

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Speaker 2: been I'm going to say dead. I'm assuming she died

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Speaker 2: shortly after she was last heard from in September, So

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Speaker 2: two months she's basically been out in the elements, buried

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Speaker 2: in an area without I mean, what kind of condition

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Speaker 2: is her body going to be in? Bad?

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Speaker 1: Really bad? You and I both know because we've lived

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Speaker 1: in the South for so many years, and that time

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Speaker 1: in September it might as well be August, you know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's that hot. Let me reiterate here. Heat

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Speaker 1: speeds things up, and you know, folks will say, well,

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Speaker 1: you know she was buried, so therefore it's going to

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Speaker 1: retard the progression of decomposition. No, it's not, because, first off,

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Speaker 1: let me tell you what I'm hearing by virtue of

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Speaker 1: the fact that this friend found the body. Okay, they

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Speaker 1: found the body. That means if they found the body,

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Speaker 1: and assuming they did no digging, whoever did this did

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Speaker 1: a terrible job of trying to obscure the body. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you've got a hole. You've got a hole here, and

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Speaker 1: this is the best you can do. And she's in

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Speaker 1: this hollowed out space. Well, if she's in a hollowed

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Speaker 1: out space, is that again this goes back to and

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Speaker 1: this is something that crimsing investigators and I would hope

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Speaker 1: that they would have at least consulted of friends against

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Speaker 1: just on this, because there's even you can see strike

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Speaker 1: marks on the walls of this thing. If they use

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Speaker 1: some kind of tool to open this thing up, and

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Speaker 1: that would be very important here, not to mention since

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Speaker 1: it's a decomposed body, you don't know what you're leaving behind.

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Speaker 1: You don't know if it's completely contained, and every bit

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Speaker 1: of evidence in a case like because you have to.

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Speaker 1: The one working assumption here I think is that we

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Speaker 1: know that miss Felkel didn't just lay down adjacent to

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Speaker 1: this old abandoned well, curl up and die. That the

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Speaker 1: probability of that is so far out there that that

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Speaker 1: actually happens. So this leads us to other things. What

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Speaker 1: she injured and she fell into this area, probably not

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Speaker 1: because there's been some half hearted effort to try to

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Speaker 1: obscure her body so that leads us to or that

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Speaker 1: she go here try to obscure her body and take

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Speaker 1: her own life. Look, I've had a lot of cases

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Speaker 1: over the course of my career, Dave, where people have

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Speaker 1: gone into the woods and have taken their own lives.

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Speaker 1: I've had people go up into deer stands and haven't

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Speaker 1: been found for two years and have taken their own life.

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Speaker 1: Those are the individuals that are set on taking.

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Speaker 2: Their own lives.

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Speaker 1: They don't want to be stopped. But this doesn't sound

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Speaker 1: like that. This sounds like somebody was purposed to sequester

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Speaker 1: her body out of you. It's just they did a

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Speaker 1: really crappy job. If you've got a civilian that's walking

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Speaker 1: through there, and God bless this person for going out there,

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Speaker 1: I'm not diminishing their efforts here, but they knew enough

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Speaker 1: to go over to the old home place and kind

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Speaker 1: of seek this out. You know what I really wonder here, Dave,

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Speaker 1: I wonder if this was what sensory elements are involved here?

375
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Speaker 1: Is this something that they visually saw or is this

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Speaker 1: something they smelled? Because it's going to be vile, it

377
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Speaker 1: will be and we don't know the extent to to

378
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Speaker 1: what kind of post mortem condition of body was in.

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Speaker 1: And of course, when I'm saying that, I'm thinking foxes, raccoons, possums, anything,

380
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Speaker 1: hogs written around. There's a lot of hogs out in

381
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Speaker 1: this area. You've got a lot of wild hogs. And

382
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Speaker 1: so you know, you think about you think about what

383
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Speaker 1: condition was she in? Well, she appears to be intact

384
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Speaker 1: to a certain degree in a post mortem sense, of course, Okay.

385
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Speaker 1: And it's the dynamic of this thing is so very

386
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Speaker 1: bizarre when compared to all of the cases that you

387
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Speaker 1: and I cover on body backs, Dave, this is kind

388
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Speaker 1: of an outlier for us, because, yeah, we have people

389
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Speaker 1: that find bodies, but the fact that somebody took the

390
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: lead on this that's non law enforcement and went out

391
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Speaker 1: and actually found a body that I think that probably

392
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:03,239
Speaker 1: most people believe this, this poor woman was deceased. Just

393
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: think about the that construct just in and of itself,

394
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: that's quite fascinating. And then after the fact, after the

395
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: body is found, you know, I've got visions of of police,

396
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: uh police officers, you know, with Darlington County Sheriff's apartment

397
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: rushing to grab their keys, and run for the door.

398
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Speaker 1: Get me any information that you've gotten onne this thing,

399
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: because uh, this has got let's see, how can I

400
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 1: say this politely? Uh, this has got a pucker factor

401
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,400
Speaker 1: to it. I'll put it to you that way. If

402
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: if they have been, if they have been, if they

403
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: have been asked to be engaged with this, this kicks

404
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 1: it up, and I think probably, Uh, I hate to

405
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: go down this road, but I will. I'll just I'll

406
00:25:54,800 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: just say it plainly. Sheriffs are are elected and not

407
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: elected based on cases like this. Okay, this is politically

408
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,919
Speaker 1: this is not a good look if we are to

409
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: believe what the families say. And again there's two sides

410
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: to every story. So yeah, the urgency, though, I think

411
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 1: to get out there and sequester the scene, tape it off,

412
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Speaker 1: get all of the civilians out of there, but hang

413
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: on to the civilians this one person finder in particular.

414
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 1: Get them into headquarters, and you begin taking statements from everybody,

415
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Speaker 1: because right now you've got what the police probably believe

416
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Speaker 1: at this moment in time, they got a killer on

417
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Speaker 1: the loose. Can I just tell you how many. It's

418
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: not a ton of them, but I have been either

419
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 1: involved directly or adjacent to cases involving found bodies where

420
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: somebody went out to the local juke joint and they

421
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: started hammering back Budweiser's and all of a sudden loose

422
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: sink ships got a guilty conscience or something like that.

423
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that's what happened here, but suddenly people

424
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 1: develop diary of the mouth. They just start running on.

425
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: Or it might be just guilt, or it might be stupidity.

426
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: Somebody that did this might not be using the logical

427
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: side of their brain to try to say, well, you know,

428
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: this is going to draw attention to me, and somebody

429
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: picks up on it, maybe they hear something, and that's

430
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: that's I'm going to be. I think I'm more interested

431
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: in knowing out of everything relative to this case, how

432
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: did this person come into this knowledge or was it

433
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 1: the killer or was it the killer that dropped an

434
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: anonymous dime on themselves? You know that you know, maybe

435
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 1: you know that maybe made a comment about it.

436
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 2: Well, think about it, Joe, you've got somebody. Well, the

437
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 2: body's not found, the person is still missing. The person

438
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 2: closest to them as an adult being the boyfriend. You

439
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 2: know that this is not something you're ever going to

440
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 2: get away with. They got to find the body, otherwise

441
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 2: you're just going to be the suspect forever. But they

442
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 2: find the body, you have a chance of putting it

443
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 2: behind you and moving on. But I got a couple

444
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 2: of questions about this. How in the world, Joe, You've

445
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 2: got a body that is dramatically decomposed, and they're able

446
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 2: to investigators, they are able to determine that she was

447
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 2: strangled to death. How are you going to find that

448
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 2: out from a decomposed body. I'm guessing decomposition means the

449
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 2: flesh is going away.

450
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 1: Yeah it is, You've still got underlying soft tissue. And

451
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: I'll put it to you this way. The autopsy in

452
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 1: this case is not something you would have been want

453
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: to have been in the room. To have been there,

454
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: you have to be paid. You have to have individuals

455
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: that are on salary to be present, because this is

456
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: going to be a horrible case to have to be

457
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,959
Speaker 1: there for. And it's what we do in my field. Uh,

458
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: it's not something. Oh wow, yeah, I think I'll go

459
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: to this autopsy today. It's amazing how many people want

460
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 1: to attend autopsies and you say, well, we're doing a

461
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: decomp today, Come on in, I think I'll pass. Yeah,

462
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: but yeah.

463
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 2: I guess we want to see a just so we're

464
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 2: both on the same page here.

465
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. It is fascinating though, And it's fascinating what you

466
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: can learn even from a body that is this far,

467
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: this far in advanced state of decomposition. But here's what

468
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: I do know. The first thing they're going to look

469
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: at is if they can appreciate it. They're going to

470
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: look at and I'll kind of take this, take this

471
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: through by layers. So you're going to do an assessment

472
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: of the external neck. Okay. That means that the surface

473
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: of the neck adjacent to your trachea, you know, where

474
00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: the Adams apple is and this and the structures that

475
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 1: and you're going to see if there's evidence that you

476
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: can appreciate externally that might give you an indication that

477
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: then they haven't said that this is a manual strangulation

478
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: or if this is a literature strangulation at this point

479
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: as of this taping. Okay, and we're going to learn more,

480
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: But it would literature be a lot simpler because you

481
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: can still see a furrow after this period of time. Okay,

482
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: you could probably pick up on a furrow, it's gonna

483
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: be very narrow. It would be deep, deepended, and the

484
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: depth of it's gonna be dictated by the size of literature.

485
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: So if you're talking about, you know, like a piece

486
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: of para cord, it's going to be rather shallow, or

487
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: a piece of wire or something like that. Now you're

488
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 1: going to look and see if you can see that externally.

489
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: And that's why you have to be very very purposed

490
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: in what you're doing here and very careful because this

491
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: is as foul as it is, it's very fragile. Okay,

492
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: just imagine if you're if you're if you're handling an

493
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 1: ancient document. Okay, that's the way I always like to

494
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: look at it in my mind, because anything that I

495
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: do in the morgue when I was working with the

496
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: forensic pathologists, any kind of dissection that we endeavor on

497
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: in particularly the neck, I can destroy. I could easily

498
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: destroy evidence by virtue of some kind of not paying

499
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: attention to what I'm doing, So it would be it

500
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: would go layer by layer. See, you're at a real advantage

501
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: if you have someone that has been freshly killed. I'm

502
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: not saying you're not careful with this case is but

503
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: this thing is on steroids at this point in time.

504
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: The do care that you have to take. So after

505
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: we get past that external the external assessment, you're going

506
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: to go down into the muscular structures. And I'm thinking

507
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: primarily of what's referred to as as strap muscles. And yeah,

508
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: it's spelled just like it sounds. A strap, you know,

509
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: like a strap that you have to tie something on.

510
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: And they're kind of these diagonally oriented muscle structures that

511
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: run across the surface of the trachea. You're going to

512
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: look for focal areas of hemorrhage in there too. The

513
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: trick is is that there are changes that occur from

514
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: a decompositional perspective DAVE that will kind of it will

515
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: mask hemorrhage many times. So that's why there's a delineation

516
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: that takes place. You have to look at this microscopically.

517
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: So let's just say these strap muscles have they think

518
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: maybe what they have is hemorrhage, but they're going to

519
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: have to take a section of that. And when I

520
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: say section, they'll take the a pair of forceps or

521
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: pickups as they're called in the morgue and the scalpel,

522
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: and they'll cut out that muscle and then they'll save it.

523
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: They'll preserve it, and they'll fix it in formulane, which

524
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: is kind of a type of formaldehyde, and then they

525
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: will take that and put it into a block of

526
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: wax and cut it and they'll put it on a

527
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: microscopic slide. It'll be stained as well. And so you

528
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: at that level you can kind of work out in

529
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: your mind, is this something that is a post mortem

530
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: artifact these changes that we're seeing. Is this something that

531
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: came about as a result of the decompositional process, or

532
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: is this something that happened as an adjunct to manual

533
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: strangulation or literature stangulation. Then after you're done with that level,

534
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: that's when you get into the structural the structural assessment

535
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: where you're talking about the trichia. Well, what's trachia consists of?

536
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 1: You've got several cartilaginous bodies in there. So if you

537
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: think about where the atoms apple is, there is a

538
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: significant piece of cartilage that's in there, and cartilage fractures. Okay,

539
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: most of the time cartilage is not going to fracture. Well,

540
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: it's not going to fracture as a result of decompositional changes.

541
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: And when I say fracture, it's going to be very

542
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: it's going to look like a little fracture line in bone.

543
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,479
Speaker 1: It's just more pliable. You're going to look for that

544
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: because that means that you've got pressure being exerted over

545
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: that area in the cartilaginal fracture. And then of course

546
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,240
Speaker 1: we're going to look at the infamous hyoid bone as well.

547
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 1: And the hyoid bone should still be intact if you

548
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,839
Speaker 1: don't have scavengers that have gotten to the neck. And

549
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to be curious to see if if miss

550
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: Felkel's hyoid bone is intact again, there'll be surrounding hemorrhage

551
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: there depended upon how much force was applied at you know,

552
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,320
Speaker 1: how how long. And she's kind of a tiny, fragile woman,

553
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: so I can't imagine that it would have have been

554
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure over period time. However, there's something

555
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: that the family said, Dave about her. They refer to her,

556
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: I think what was the term. Was it a firecracker

557
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: or it was like she's she's a fighter, She's not

558
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: going to go down without a fight. And I really wonder,

559
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: you know, are there other marks on her body other

560
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: than other than just what they're seeing that has led

561
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:18,280
Speaker 1: them to release in the corner. Our authorities have stated

562
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: that this is probably strangulation death.

563
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 2: Well, the charge is so far Joe Daniel Peel charged

564
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 2: with murdered, kidnapping in abstraction of justice, and I'm kind

565
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 2: of looking at the kidnapping as holding her against your

566
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 2: will while he murders her, and then abstraction of justice

567
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 2: being that he stashed her body where it wouldn't be

568
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:37,240
Speaker 2: readily found.

569
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I was about to say, yeah, one of

570
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: two things can go with that obstruction charge, I think.

571
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 1: And again this is a Nancy question. However, please forgive me,

572
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: oh Nancy on high, I'll take a stab at it.

573
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 1: So obstruction can come in a couple of forms. Either

574
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 1: it's the idea that he has taken the body and

575
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: hidden it, which again I'm wondering why they haven't charged

576
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,399
Speaker 1: him with abuse of corpse as well, because we get

577
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: that charge a lot, don't we in these cases that

578
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: we cover. Or he misled an investigator, you know when

579
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: they're questioning him now in certain places, if you if

580
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: you purpose to lie, lie to a law enforcement officer,

581
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: every state has has different phraseology for all these things,

582
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: but there is an obstruction charge that is, you know,

583
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: and you can get other things like hindering, hindering as

584
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: another charge. You hear frequently hindering a police investigation, those

585
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,800
Speaker 1: sorts of things, But they're saying obstruction. So I'm really wondering,

586
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,839
Speaker 1: and that's probably very broadly framed you if you read

587
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: the statute in South Carolina, and they've got apparently a

588
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 1: significant amount of information about this case because they're being

589
00:36:54,840 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: very specific about these charges. Kidnapping is fascinating because you know,

590
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 1: the question is how'd you get there? Because her car

591
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: ain't nowhere to be found, so unless she walked, she

592
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: has to be conveyed to that location. And I guess

593
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: one of the things that will come out, hopefully eventually

594
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 1: in the wash is was she killed there or killed

595
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: somewhere else and then transported out there. You can't kidnap

596
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 1: a dead body, So my suspicion is is that they

597
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: probably believe that she was taken out there, kidnapped, transported

598
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: out there, killed there, and then buried there. I don't know.

599
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 1: More remains to be seen in this case, but thankfully

600
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,240
Speaker 1: the family has this one bit of information, a major

601
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 1: bit of information as to where their mother and their friend.

602
00:37:59,719 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 2: Is.

603
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 1: It didn't turn out like they wanted it to, obviously,

604
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: but they have that bit of information. Hopefully they'll be

605
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 1: able to take some level of comfort in that. But

606
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: we're going to follow up on this case and keep

607
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 1: you abreast of all of the developments. As there has

608
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: been an arrest affected mister Peel is not convicted, he

609
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 1: has not been tried. He's merely been charged. I'm Joseph

610
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,320
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks