1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Body times. But Joseph's gotten more. There have been many 2 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: times in my life and certainly in my career where 3 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: I've had to take a second look. Now you can 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,479 Speaker 1: apply this, I don't know in your own experience. You know, 5 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, well, I don't know if I want 6 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: to go down this road or not. I visited one 7 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: time before. This happens a lot in investigations. You kind 8 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: of walk away from it and wait, wait, something was 9 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:36,239 Speaker 1: not right. I got to go back and view it 10 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: again just to try to get a sense for what 11 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: I'm seeing, or maybe confirm that I'm not losing my mind, 12 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: because there were many times when I thought that I was. 13 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: You get really caught up in details lots of times. 14 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: But today I want to talk about a case. It's 15 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: kind of unusual. It's kind of unusual in a sense 16 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: that we've got not one, but two autopsies. I'm the 17 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 1: same person. It's not something that you necessarily see every 18 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:18,119 Speaker 1: day as a death investigator. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 19 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 1: this is Buddybacks brother Dave mac good to be back 20 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: with you, my friend. You know, I sent this case 21 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: to you because, well, first off, it's been in the news. 22 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: I'd actually had a couple of people reach out to 23 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: me about it, and it's in kind of a it's 24 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: kind of I'm not going to say isolated, but it's 25 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: not something that really made the news nationwide. But I 26 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: got to tell you, there's a lot of stuff that 27 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: makes the news nationwide. That's like I'm sitting there thinking, well, 28 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: is this in the news cycle? And I look at 29 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: this case and I think, Wow, if you're really interested 30 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: in forensics, if you're interested in and kind of a 31 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: slice of life, that doesn't happen every time. And I 32 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: would think that any newsperson out there worth their salt 33 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: would kind of want to dig their claws into this case. 34 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 2: You know, I will tell you this, Joe. I counsel 35 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 2: people to not get divorced when they've been married for 36 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 2: a little while, just because things are not what they 37 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 2: thought they were going to be. 38 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. 39 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 2: I'm just not a fan of divorce. And you and 40 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 2: I have both been through this, yes, and knowing what 41 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 2: you do go through in a divorce makes it difficult. 42 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 2: And yet I will tell you this, divorce is better 43 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 2: than murder. And yet we continually see people choosing to 44 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 2: end the life of somebody they stood before God and 45 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,119 Speaker 2: everyone to love, honor, cherish until death to his part. 46 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 2: And then you decide, well, wait a minute, I had 47 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 2: my fingers crossed till death to his part, or when 48 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 2: I decide to kill you. It works that way. I 49 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 2: guess you're living it out because we have a guy 50 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,119 Speaker 2: here is Kevin West. He's fifty two. He's a fire Now, 51 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 2: when we're little kids and there are certain things we 52 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 2: want to be boys in particular. Boy, that sounds I'm 53 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 2: old and sexist, I guess. 54 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: But back in the day, hang on, Dave, this is 55 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: a safe space. 56 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's not you. 57 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 1: It's not. 58 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 2: Look when if your gender fluid gets on me, we're 59 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 2: going to fight. I'm just telling. But here's the scoop. 60 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 2: When you're in second grade and you list out, what 61 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 2: do you want to be when you grow up? Well, 62 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 2: when we were kids, maybe astronaut that was up there. 63 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 2: Then firemen, policeman. Those were the types of people we 64 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 2: looked up to. Now, granted, oh, I'd love to do 65 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 2: a baseball player, football player, what have you? Those are? 66 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 2: You know, those things are cool, But when you really 67 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 2: looked at those attainable, it was the firemen, the policeman 68 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 2: because they do. They're they're good people. They they they 69 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 2: actually help others. They are superheroes and regular clothing. That's 70 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 2: who we want to be. Yeah, and listen, listen. I 71 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 2: love a love mop police officer friends to death. All Right, 72 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 2: I've got a multitude of them. And I've said this before. 73 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: I always, you know, kind of trumpet the the exceptional 74 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: job that people in the fire service do, because you 75 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: know the old adage about they're running into a burning building. Yeah, 76 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: and I for one, uh am going to be fleeing 77 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: and but yet over and over and over again. For 78 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: those that haven't heard the story. One of the coolest 79 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: gifts I ever got. I think I was three or 80 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: maybe four. My uncle, who is a retired judge in Louisiana. 81 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: He he didn't have kids at that point in time, 82 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: and so to fact though, I was like the only 83 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: child in the in the family, so he would he 84 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: would really give me these cool gifts at Christmas time, Dave, 85 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: he bought me, Now tell me just sit in nostalgia. 86 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: He bought me a Texaco Fire Chief firefighter helmet and 87 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: it was in the shape of the old helmet. You know, 88 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: they remember the back and down and it had a 89 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: radio inside of it, and I wish I still had 90 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: this thing, and it was one of my most treasured gifts. Listen, 91 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: even to this day, cop cars are one thing. 92 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 2: You know. 93 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: I can see them go by, and I can tell 94 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: the difference between the sirens fire truck goes by. Dude, 95 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: I'm stopping. I'm watching, you know, because you never know, 96 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: because when you see one, you know that there's going 97 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 1: to be multiple other ones, different pieces of equipment, and 98 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 1: they all have a very specific job. But I don't 99 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: think that the murder of your wife is included in 100 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: that job description, Dave. 101 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 2: Now, And I think that's what really frustrates me these days. 102 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 2: And look, Kevin West is fifty two, his wife, Marci 103 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 2: is forty eight. He gets up really early, It's like 104 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 2: four twenty seven in the morning, and he calls his 105 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 2: fire department, his buddies, my wife is having a seizure. 106 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 2: I think she's dead. Send help now. I'm gonna be honest, Joe, 107 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 2: if I call nine one one, they're going to tell 108 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 2: me how to do CPR and do other things. You know, 109 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 2: They're going to ask a lot of information. I don't 110 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: know if that's the case. When you're a battalion chief 111 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 2: like Kevin West was. I don't know, you know, everybody 112 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 2: you know that works there, I would guess, And I 113 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 2: don't know if they treat them the same way. I 114 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 2: just have no clue. I'd like to get that nine 115 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 2: to one one call to see how it was handled. 116 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 1: Well, let me let me tell you this. And I've 117 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: heard these kind of calls before, involving people not not 118 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: are involving you know, somebody that winds up being, you know, 119 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: under the microscope for a potential homicide perpetrator. But I've 120 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: heard these calls before that are put in over the 121 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 1: nine to one one system, and the person that's putting 122 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: in the call will say, I am Officer so and 123 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 1: so of such and such department, and I've got an 124 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,919 Speaker 1: emergency at my home. And have you ever been have 125 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: you ever physically been to a nine one one center before? 126 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 2: I have? 127 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: Okay, It's I like going to them because it's mind 128 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: blowing when you walk in the you see it. And 129 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: I wish I could remember the name of the podcast. 130 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: I love this guy. Brandon is his first name. I've 131 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: met him at Crime Con. He's a guy that is 132 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: from Nashville. And does yeah, yeah, yeah, and he does 133 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: the nine to one one dispatch thing. He's got his 134 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: own podcast, and oh my god, he is so cool. 135 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: What a great guy he is. But when you walk in, 136 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: it's it's this darkened space and you see the glow 137 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: of the screens and all that sort of thing. Listen, 138 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: if you're a battalion chief, if you're a battalion chief, 139 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: people in the nine to eleven center, they know you, 140 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: they know who you are. So you you drop a 141 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: name like that, you know, you might say, this is chief, 142 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: you know so and so this is what's going on. 143 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: And sometimes I think that the motivation behind that could 144 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: be to expedite services. Yeah, this is the chief. But Dave, 145 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: let me let me pitch something to you that's a 146 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: bit more sinister man, knowing what we know now. Because 147 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: by the way, I'll go ahead and kind of give 148 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: this away at the front end this case, this is 149 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: an adjudicated case that we're talking about. I'm kind of 150 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: I'm kind of wondering if maybe he made this call 151 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: on some level and it was so he could get 152 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: the story right, you know, because he's the one that 153 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: gets to control the narrative. If you drop the dime 154 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: on this, and you know how the system works. And look, 155 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: you're the chief, man. If you're the chief, there's a 156 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: high probability that not only are you good at managing 157 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: you know, the fire station, the equipment, personnel, all that stuff. Dude, 158 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: there's also a high probability that you're also certified EMT 159 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 1: or maybe even a paramedic. And so you've got somebody 160 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,959 Speaker 1: that's knowledgeable on the other end of the phone. And look, 161 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: he says, seizure. Hey, look he's seen he's probably seen 162 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:15,079 Speaker 1: hundreds of seizures. Yeah, I'm buying it, man, I'm buying it. 163 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 2: Well, and it's his wife. It's not a stranger, it's 164 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 2: actually his spouse, and he's calling no One and I 165 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 2: actually to pull it up. He said she was having 166 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 2: a seizure, had stopped breathing, and that he had begun 167 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 2: performing CPR, and when first responders arrived at the scene, 168 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 2: they continued with life saving measures, but she was pronounced dead. 169 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 2: So I'm guessing he knew exactly what was going on 170 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 2: with her, now that we have a little more information. 171 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 2: But still, I think you're right, Joe. I think the 172 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 2: reason things were treated the way they were at first 173 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 2: was because of his position in the department as of 174 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 2: Italian chief. With somebody who did know what they were doing. 175 00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 2: Why would you suspect, you know, But it went pretty 176 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 2: quick through the process. You know, they got her, she's passed, 177 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 2: got a quick look at the autopsy. Inconclusive, I think, 178 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 2: is what they came up with. Now, what does it 179 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:11,959 Speaker 2: mean when it's inconclusive? I mean you've got a dead body. 180 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: Joe, No, no, no, no, let me. I'm so glad 181 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: you asked this question. You know who I began thinking 182 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: about when I heard this case. Uh, and you're going 183 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: to recognize let me. The first name is Tammy, the 184 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: last name is Dave Bell, And so I think about 185 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: and that those cases cases plural, are also tragic. But 186 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: there was something about Tammy that really kind of drew 187 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: me in. And do you remember, you know, there was 188 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: a call that went out relative to her death where 189 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: she's found there on the floor adjacent to the bed. 190 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 1: One child was there, said that she had this cone 191 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 1: coming out of her mouth, and of course they wound 192 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: up not doing an autopsy. You know, Oh my gosh, 193 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: don't even get me started. Anyway, Tammy was I think 194 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: approximating the same age as this lady. She wasn't okay, 195 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: And kudos to them. They went ahead and did a 196 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: post mortem examination and they're calling it an autopsy. I'm 197 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: very curious to the extent that they did this autopsy 198 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: because look, Dave, she's young. She's forty eight years old. 199 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: There is no reason under heaven unless she's got some 200 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: kind of unknown condition that you would that you would 201 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: not do an autopsy. It demands it, because listen, if 202 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: she doesn't have a medical history. And what did I 203 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: say earlier about the husband, he has planted the seed. 204 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: Now he's controlling the narrative. The real key here is 205 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: that he has used the term seizure. All right, so 206 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,719 Speaker 1: this is kind of why he's kind of he's kind 207 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: of play on the field here. All right, Oh, well, 208 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: she had a seizure. We know what a seizure looks like. 209 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: But they go ahead and do the autopsy. And here's 210 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: something really interesting with seizure related cases. Guess what our 211 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: primary focus is at autopsy. It's a brain. It's a brain, 212 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: hands down. I need to know how much time has 213 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: elapsed here when they made this diagnosis. I'm wondering because 214 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: cazure seizure is floating around. Excuse me, I keep mispronouncing that, 215 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: but caesure is floating around. Guess what we do with 216 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: the brain. In cases like this, we will take a 217 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: brain and we won't dissect it at autopsy. What happens 218 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: is is that the brain if you imagine that the 219 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 1: normal anatomical positioning of the brain, you know, it's kind 220 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: of like you're looking you're looking at the two hemispheres 221 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: of the brain. We actually invert the brain and there's 222 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: a well, there's an area that's referred to as a 223 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: circle of willis that's underneath the brain, that's forward of 224 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: like the cerebellum, and there's a complex of vessels that 225 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: run through there. We take string and we run it 226 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: through these vessels, all right, and not like putting it 227 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,839 Speaker 1: into vessels, but underneath the vessels. We put it into 228 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: a bucket of preservative, and it's inverted. So the brain 229 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: is like upside down, and you tape both ends of 230 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: the string to either side of the bucket and then 231 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: you close the lid. Now it's floating and preservative. The 232 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: reason we do this is so that the brain will 233 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: fix well, it'll fix it'll it the formulin which is 234 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: used and they're using kind of a different type of 235 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: composition now than in the old days when when I 236 00:13:55,120 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: was first started out. But the formulin causes the brain 237 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: to essentially firm up because the brain is very is. 238 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 2: When you say fix, you mean that it becomes a solid. 239 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: It does. It's more solid than it was. 240 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 2: You know, by the way, until we started doing this, 241 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 2: I did not know that it was pretty much a gushy. 242 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 2: I thought it was. 243 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: I think the real term you want to use is 244 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: probably I hate to say spongy, because the lungs are 245 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: kind of spongy, but the brain itself is not, like 246 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: it's not intact, like the mild cardium of the heart. 247 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: You know, I say intact. That's inaccurate, but you know 248 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: what I'm saying, and so you have to get it 249 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: so that you can actually examine it. The big question 250 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: is did they do that with a brain initially or not? 251 00:14:48,520 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: Because the first autopsy was inconclusive. David. One of the 252 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: reasons I like to not surprise you with these things 253 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: necessarily is because I know you've you've spent your life 254 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: in media, in reporting, in radio, and I love to teach. 255 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: So it's like you know, I've mentioned before Dave and 256 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: I are, you know, literally staring at it at each 257 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: other like we're at a table. We're on computers though, 258 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: and we're seeing so I can see every expression on 259 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: my friend's face, you know, when he reacts to these things. 260 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: And it's not like he was shocked or anything, but 261 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: you can see there's like a light bulb going on. 262 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: I love that because I feel like I'm actually teaching 263 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: and so talking about the brain. One of the things 264 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: that we have to do is you want to let 265 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: it fix. Okay, so it has to fix over, you know, 266 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: over a couple of days, all right, So it's not 267 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: like it would necessarily be overnight. I'm thinking probably two 268 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: to three days, you know, relative to when it gets 269 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: to the point and here here's one other thing day 270 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: with a young woman like this. Forensic pathologists are fantastic. Okay, 271 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: they're they're great, but you know, with someone that suddenly dies, 272 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: you've got the word seize're floating around and it's inconclusive. 273 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: I want to put that brain into the hands of 274 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: what's referred to as a neuropathologist. We talked a lot 275 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: about Ellen Greenberg, and there's a very famous neuropathologist that 276 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: was kind of peripherally associated with her case. That's the 277 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: kind of person you want to get the brain into 278 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: the hands of because yet they understand the pathology of 279 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: the brain because that's in the spinal cord. That's what 280 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: they focus on these sorts of things because they can 281 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,239 Speaker 1: take it up another level from what a regular forensic pathologist, 282 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: our hospital pathologists can do. But you know, David, it 283 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: was it was inconclusive. But you know, we've kind of 284 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: got some insights, you know, change gears a little bit here. 285 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: We've got some insights into kind of the familial dynamic 286 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 1: here or the couple's dynamic with these two. 287 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 2: You know, there's so much here. And I will say this, 288 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 2: Joe that the fireman community is small. So it's the 289 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 2: police community, that blue line, the red line, whatever you 290 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 2: want to call it. Those lines they're drawn for a reason. 291 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 2: They do circle around one another. But they also talk. 292 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 2: And in the community, there was a lot of talk 293 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 2: about the relationship of Kevin West and his wife Marcy. 294 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 2: There was a lot of talk. They'd been married for 295 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 2: a long time and Kevin had not always been faithful. 296 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 2: I guess it's the best way to put it as 297 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 2: a matter of fact. There was a girl, well a 298 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 2: girl when they first met twenty years ago or so 299 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 2: that he had a relationship with. 300 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: Her. 301 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 2: Name is Cynthia Ward back in two thousand and four, 302 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 2: and Kevin is married to Marcy. He and Cynthia begin 303 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 2: a relationship two thousand and four. Now that relationship moves away, 304 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,640 Speaker 2: and Cynthia goes and does her thing for a number 305 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 2: of years, A couple of decades past, and in twenty 306 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 2: twenty three, all of a sudden they reconnect. Cynthia Ward 307 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 2: and Kevin West. Now, when they reconnect in twenty twenty three, Joe, 308 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 2: they're both involved. Kevin's still married to Marcy, Cynthia is 309 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 2: involved with somebody else. But they begin meeting secretly and 310 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 2: the relationship blossoms. It has been said by those who 311 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 2: knew them that Kevin was obsessed with Cynthia, and this 312 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 2: was an open secret among certain groups. Now I don't 313 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 2: know if Marcy knew. I don't know if she knew 314 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 2: her husband was cheating. In my own heart of hearts, 315 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 2: I hope she didn't. I really do, because what a 316 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 2: way to live. Yeah, but this is why I always 317 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 2: tell people don't get married, do you have an affair, 318 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 2: don't get married in cheat. Deal with the situation and 319 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 2: the relationship. I promise you can get back to where 320 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 2: you were if that's what you want. It's just be 321 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 2: honest with you. Do you really want to be with 322 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 2: the cheater? 323 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:14,360 Speaker 1: Yah? 324 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 2: Because that's who you're with. If you're cheating on your spouse. 325 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 2: Whoever you're cheating with is willingly cheating with you. They'll 326 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 2: do it to you. You'll both do it to one another. 327 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,479 Speaker 2: You have no scruples. Now, in this particular case, Kevin 328 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 2: was so obsessed with Marcy. He had really taken this 329 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 2: a bit far and it left doors open for the investigation. 330 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 2: So after that initial autopsy, which again I really question 331 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 2: what they did for an autopsy, Joe, but people in 332 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 2: the community calling saying, hey, this is not what you 333 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,719 Speaker 2: think it is, there were problems and so immediately, I 334 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 2: guess within days, because you know, things did happen and 335 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 2: a second autopsy was ordered. How difficult, Joe, is it 336 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 2: to get a second autopsy when somebody has already been 337 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 2: they're already dead, and you've already got the grieving spouse. 338 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 2: And just because the people in the in the in 339 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 2: the community are having a rumor longer time. Do we 340 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 2: really want to put this poor man who just lost 341 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 2: his wife through misery again? 342 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 1: Yeah? You do? Uh, And listen, I don't you know, 343 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 1: it's my wile saying. You know, I always say, you know, 344 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: like Grandpappy would say, let the hide come with the 345 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:29,439 Speaker 1: hair when you're looking at a situation like this, because listen, 346 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: one of the most difficult things you can do is 347 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: zoom a body. If you have suspicions before that body 348 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: goes in the ground, you better you better work that 349 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: out real quick. Because one of the things that judges 350 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: absolutely hate to do is cracking open graves. They don't 351 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: like to do it, and you're going to have to 352 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,679 Speaker 1: really go some distance in order to convince them. It's 353 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: you know, to get you know, we talked about this 354 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: before orders of exhamation and this sort of thing. But I, 355 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,919 Speaker 1: like you, I have a lot of questions relative to 356 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: the initial the initial exam I'll call it an examination, 357 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: right because you know, she was following that examination, she's 358 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: released to the funeral home, and. 359 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 2: It seemed like it was quick. 360 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, it kind of did. And you know, going back 361 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: to what I'm thinking about the specimen of the brain, 362 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: and all these things because you're you know, you're you're 363 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: putting it out there that this is a seizure, all right, 364 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: and all answers rest within the brain, okay, when it 365 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: comes to some kind of neurological event that's going on. 366 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,120 Speaker 1: And for those of you that have never witnessed a seizure, 367 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: it's one of the most terrifying things. You can absolutely see. Kimmy, 368 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: you know, was a teacher for years and years and years, 369 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 1: and she even more so than than than I. In 370 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 1: public schools, there were kids that had seizures on a 371 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: regular basis, and she got kind of used to it. 372 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 2: I would never get you to it. 373 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: It's just one of these things that when you see 374 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,479 Speaker 1: it really leaves a mark on you and you have 375 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 1: to learn how to respond to that. On one time, Joe, Yeah. 376 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 2: And it freaked me out to the point where I 377 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 2: actually learned what to do because I did. I was 378 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 2: so useless and I thought they're going to get hurt, 379 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 2: you know. 380 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you see that the body goes rigid. You'll 381 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: see them beginning kind of to uh uh, these kind 382 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: of contortions on the floor. You can see them kind 383 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: of banging about them fo you're thinking head injury. They 384 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: manifest in all manner of ways. And uh, you can 385 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: even have these kind of passive you know, little tiny 386 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 1: tiny seizures. You can have massive seizures. They don't all 387 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: look the same, but they're still terrifying. I have to 388 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: have as a medical legal person, I have to have 389 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: an answer for that. I'm really wondering how the disposition 390 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: of the body took place in that, you know, in 391 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: that timeframe, because that's a critical time. I'm happy that 392 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: somebody looked at the body, you know, unlike Tammy Davell, 393 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: where they wound up having to do an exhamation. In 394 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: that case, I present to you Exit one, I mean 395 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: Exhibit one A. And you know, the other problem is, 396 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: let's just say that they had elected to do cremation here, 397 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: you know, and and that that could have potentially been facilitated, 398 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: it could have been requested. But for whatever reason, this 399 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: kind of back channel talk that was taking place indicated 400 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: that there was a lot more to it. I can 401 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: only imagine, dave that that whoever was making these comments 402 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 1: relative to what had happened in this relationship prior to 403 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 1: her death, they had the ear Okay, they had the 404 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 1: ear of somebody that could make a decision. And listen, 405 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: you talked about, you know, kind of the closed community. 406 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: You know, cops, women get a really hard time. I 407 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: think many times about about gossip and all these sorts 408 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 1: of guys are the worst. We are the absolute worst. 409 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 2: Uh. 410 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 1: You know, we're like a knitting circle. You know. Well, 411 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: we'll sit around and you know we can kind of 412 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: blow it off and say, oh, we don't gossip about 413 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: it about anybody, no as much of malarkey we do. 414 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: And you get you get groups of people that are 415 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: together for a protracted period of time, words are gonna fly. 416 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: You're going to hear it because you know, they don't 417 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,719 Speaker 1: have anything better to do than to dig into other 418 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: people's business. Or they could be affected by it relative 419 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: to their jobs because this guy's distracted from what he 420 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: should be doing and managing people. And it be quite frankly, 421 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: it pisses people off. 422 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 2: Yep. And you mentioned Tammy Dave Bell. She died in 423 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 2: October and they exhum her body in December. It was 424 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 2: almost eight weeks later. In this case, January eighth were 425 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 2: just past two years ago, Okay, January eighth, twenty twenty 426 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 2: four four twenty seven am. That's when the nine one 427 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 2: one call came in. It took them until March twentieth 428 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 2: before they did the second autopsy March twentieth, so a 429 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 2: little bit longer than Tammy Day Bell she was in 430 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 2: the ground, but they did Exzoomer in that second autopsy 431 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 2: on March twentieth is where they decided. And that's why 432 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 2: my question when you've got his attorney at we've already 433 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 2: said it's adjudicated at trial. They're saying that she was 434 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 2: having these headaches and that's what contributed to her seizures 435 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 2: that caused her death. Meanwhile, the second autopsy that is 436 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 2: done a couple of months later determines that her death 437 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 2: was a homicide caused by asphyxia and blunt force trauma 438 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 2: to the neck. How are you going to fight that 439 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 2: out three months later that you couldn't find out January 440 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 2: the eighth or ninth. 441 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: Because her body has been fixed. You know, this answers 442 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 1: a big question for me because it's very mysterious. I'm 443 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,239 Speaker 1: glad that you brought this up and let me let 444 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: me kind of expand on this just a wee bit. 445 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 1: When you know how I talked about the brain with 446 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: the formulain right, and had firms up. And anything that's 447 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: there is first off, you've you've diminished, you've ceased decomposition 448 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: at this point in tom Okay, decomposition is not happening 449 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: with a brain to a lesser degree with a body, 450 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: but still you've you've you've kind of stemmed the tide. 451 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 1: It's still going on in certain areas, but not to 452 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: the degree. Say, for instance, if you had an unembalmed 453 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: body that you placed in the ground by that time period, 454 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 1: what what's the number of weeks we're talking about now, well, ten, Yeah, 455 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 1: let's just say ten weeks. Ten weeks of an unembalmed 456 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 1: body buried in the grounds, you're going to have serious decomposition. 457 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: So it tells me that there's a high probability that 458 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: she was preserved. Okay, And again I go back to 459 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 1: why did he choose baril as opposed to cremation. Maybe 460 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 1: it's prohibited by virtue of something she had requested. Maybe 461 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: they had their wishes in a will. Maybe it was 462 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: a religious objection. You never know, but anything that was 463 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 1: going on with her body trauma wise, all right, Dave, 464 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 1: I'm telling you you start to get into the structures 465 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,360 Speaker 1: in the neck, which sounds like that's what we're referring to. 466 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: You're still going to be able to see those focal 467 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: areas of hemorrhage that are there the question here, Oh yeah, yeah. 468 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 2: This was that time later after she's embalm you could 469 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 2: still see that. 470 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh absolutely, yeah, it'll be glaring as a matter 471 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,479 Speaker 1: of fact, and you can still appreciate if this is 472 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: you know, anti mortem versus post mortem or perry mortem. 473 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: It went on in the throes of death. The big thing, 474 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: the big question I'm left with here is how did 475 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 1: you miss it in the first autopsy? You know. One 476 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: of the things I've been able to do at jack 477 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: State recently, Dave and I've talked about this. I will 478 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: continue to talk about it because I'm very proud of 479 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: it because I now have an anatomy lab, and interestingly enough, 480 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: in this dovetails with what was this case that we're 481 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: talking about. I have used it as a space to 482 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,239 Speaker 1: help teach our colleagues in public safety, and I'm not 483 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: talking about the kids that come to the school. I've 484 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: opened the door to police officers and get ready fire department. 485 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:11,479 Speaker 1: So last semester I had every single member of the 486 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 1: fire department in our little town, and I did it 487 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: for three successive days because they all, you know, they 488 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: worked twenty four hour shifts, come in and they got 489 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: to experience being able to be around a decedent handle 490 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: the organs of the neck, and their medical director, who 491 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: is a physician, actually got to come in and participate 492 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 1: with them, and they were able to take literally I 493 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: had removed the trachea from the body that I had, 494 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: and they were able in real time because they used 495 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: things like dummies and I think they used pigs in 496 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: order to work on intubation, you know when you're putting 497 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: in a tube. And this was really cool because I 498 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: had these guys be able to visualize how a trake 499 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: actually goes in and they can see the mechanism of it. 500 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: And so that was a big thrill for me and 501 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: got to get all of our firefighters through there. You know, 502 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: dissection of the neck itself is very well. First off, 503 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: it's mandatory when it comes to an autopsy. It's not 504 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: something that you say, well, I'm going to dissect everything else, 505 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: but I ain't doing the neck dave. When we when 506 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: we do the dissection, people don't realize this, we take 507 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: the tongue out too, so we go up superior into 508 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: the soft palette okay, in the floor of the of 509 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: the of the mouth. It's the best way I can 510 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: kind of describe it. And with the mandible, you know, 511 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: which is your jaw, your lower jaw, we will trim 512 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: out all of the connective tissue, the mus muscle tissue, 513 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: and literally begin to strip the tongue out on the 514 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: backside of the cervical spine, taking all of all of 515 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: the organs of the neck out so that we can 516 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,959 Speaker 1: actually take them out with the trachia in place the 517 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: top end of the esophagus, and we lay them out 518 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: on a board and so that we can fully examine them. 519 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: And this is very common. This is how we get 520 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: to things like you know, people always hear about the 521 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: highwoid day and this is one of the ways that 522 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: in place or as we say in forensics, in situ 523 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 1: n si tu, which means in place, we can see 524 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: the hyoid in situ okay, So like if there's if 525 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: relation to the tongue and the top of the trachea, 526 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: we can actually see if there's any little focal hemorrhages 527 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: around the hyoid. Because if there's focal areas of hemorrhage 528 00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: around the hyoid, that means that there's probably an underlining 529 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: and fracture, or at least it's been traumatized to the 530 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: point and you'll get the they're not like petiki, which 531 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: are really tiny. You'll see these these little focal areas 532 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: of hemorrhage around there. Also with a neck one of 533 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: the things that we're looking for our patiki on the 534 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 1: surface of it. We're also trying to see if the 535 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: actual what's commonly referred to as the wind pipe itself 536 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: is crushed. It's a card cartilaginous body, so we're trying 537 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: to see if it's fractured in any way, and if 538 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: it is fractured, they'll also be associated hemorrhage. In addition 539 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: to that, you have these muscles that overlie and it 540 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: almost looks like a let's see, how can I describe it? 541 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: It almost looks like a basket weave, okay, where they're 542 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: kind of interlocking and laced over these strap they're called 543 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: strap muscles, and we we can actually dissect out each 544 00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: one of these strap muscles and kind of peel them 545 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: back so that you can lay them out individually and 546 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: look not just on the antier, which is the front, 547 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: but also the underlying surface to look for any kind 548 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: of hemorrhage there. It shocks me, Dave, that this was 549 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: missed because this is this diagnosis, this diagnosis that we're 550 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: talking about. Brother, This is very very specific because just 551 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: let me read this out to you. The second autopsy 552 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: found trauma to her neck. Okay, now that's not very specific, 553 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: but what they say is that she died of asphyxia 554 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: and there was also associated blunt force trauma of the neck. 555 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: Now what does that say to me? That says to 556 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: me that if they're talking about asphyxia, there might very 557 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: well have been evidence of particual hemorrhaging, these little pinpoint hemorrhages. Now, 558 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: how do you miss that? How do you miss that? 559 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: In the first first run through with this where their 560 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: petikia and eyes, because many times, if the airways compromised, 561 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: you'll have people that are struggling and the little vessels 562 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: will burst in the eye because not only are you 563 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: struggling to breathe, the blood flow is inhibited, so the 564 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: internal pressure creates these little busted vessels on the surface 565 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 1: of the eye and the inner portion of the lids. 566 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: You can see petiki on the surface of the lungs 567 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 1: okay many times. And then of course the overlying strap 568 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: muscles you can see hemorrhage that is associated with tiki. 569 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: But you can also see them see focal focal areas 570 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: of hemorrhage that are associated with blunt force trauma. So 571 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:55,760 Speaker 1: what does that mean? Does that mean that she was strangled? 572 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 1: You know, like a throttling where you grab her, you know, 573 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,879 Speaker 1: like you think of a miss an old Tommy black 574 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: and white movie where somebody comes out and they take 575 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: their hands, they wrap them around the throat. Was was 576 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: this they're saying, blunt force trauma because that's kind of 577 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: blunt or was she punched in the throat, which again 578 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: would would leave evidence of trauma. I don't know, brother, 579 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just kind of scratching my head. The 580 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 1: more I kind of peel this onion right here, the 581 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: more questions it seems. 582 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 2: Right now, here's the interesting part of I mean, not okay, 583 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 2: beyond all that, okay, And because that's thought I was, 584 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,239 Speaker 2: I was thinking what kind of investigation was done? And 585 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 2: you you started off at the very beginning by talking 586 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 2: about the man in his position and how he set 587 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 2: things up, and I believe they did go down that path. Hey, 588 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 2: you know what, this is what he said. She'd been 589 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,320 Speaker 2: having headaches, she had had these she had medical issues 590 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 2: going on. Blah blah blah. Buy into what he's saying 591 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 2: and just move along. But it was very quickly after 592 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 2: she's in the ground that the world starts shaking. No, 593 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 2: they were in they had a lot lot of issues 594 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,399 Speaker 2: going on. So detectives start investigating, and that's what leads 595 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 2: to we're going to do a second autopsy because they 596 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 2: found out that divorce was in the air, and that 597 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 2: Kevin West found out that if he were to get divorced, 598 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 2: it would cost him forty five hundred a month in 599 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 2: alimony because of the way the relationship had been and 600 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,400 Speaker 2: he didn't have money, couldn't make those kind of payments. 601 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,879 Speaker 2: So now you've got a financial motive. They also found 602 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:29,959 Speaker 2: out that based on his story of what he said, 603 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 2: see he called nine one one at four twenty seven am. Well, gop, 604 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 2: she was, so I'm trying to help her. I called 605 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 2: right away. You know that would not be a lot 606 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 2: of activity before that time, right, wake up, wife's in trouble. 607 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 2: Boom called for help. But his Apple watch, you know 608 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 2: how attracts your steps. It also attracts the speed of 609 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 2: your steps, attracts a lot of things. And when they 610 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 2: actually started looking at it forensically, looking at the digital 611 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 2: available digital data, this guy was running around like a chicken. 612 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 2: Was his head cut off. From the time leading up 613 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 2: to four am, He's running around thousands of steps up 614 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 2: till four am. That's when it stopped. He stopped the 615 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 2: running around at four am. And then call it four 616 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 2: twenty seven. So all of these things come into play. 617 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 2: They realized that as it went to trial. He was 618 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,919 Speaker 2: charged two days after the autopsy. Joe. Two days after 619 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 2: the autopsy, they charged him with murder. Okay, and here 620 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 2: we are, it's been adjudicated two years ago. That's when 621 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 2: this happened January eighth of twenty twenty four. Got her 622 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,879 Speaker 2: body back out of the ground. March twentieth, two days 623 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 2: after that, he's arrested, charged. He stayed with the same story. Hey, 624 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 2: she'd had some medical issues, having headaches, having seizures, just died. 625 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 2: I tried to save her life. He admitted on the 626 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 2: stand that the s he did have an affair. The 627 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 2: prosecutor said it wasn't just an affair. It was an obsession. 628 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 2: And it out that when they met twenty years earlier, 629 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,320 Speaker 2: he hadn't been married very long and they had an affair. 630 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,799 Speaker 2: And while Cynthia had gone away for a while, he 631 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 2: didn't forget about her. He tried tracking her down on 632 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 2: social media. For years, he was looking for her, and 633 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,360 Speaker 2: when she finally came back into his life in twenty 634 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 2: twenty three, it was like manner from heaven and that 635 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,239 Speaker 2: was that was where the relationship does. He even went 636 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 2: so far as to tell Cynthia Cynthia Ward's mother, her 637 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 2: mother Joe, about getting a divorce because he was so 638 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 2: in love with her daughter. He was just so in 639 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 2: love with her that I think he said it went 640 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 2: beyond soulmate, you know. It was one of those situations 641 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 2: where he's just talking about how much he loved her. Anyway, 642 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 2: as all of this fell apart, the prosecutor presents the 643 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,360 Speaker 2: case and says, to call it an affair is a 644 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 2: little bit of an understatement. It was an obsession. He 645 00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 2: almost got away with Jesseph Scott Morgan. 646 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:06,879 Speaker 1: Yeah he did, he did, Dave, but thank god he didn't, 647 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 1: because at the end of the day. You've got a 648 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,799 Speaker 1: public servant who has had a rather robust and long 649 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 1: career that wound up doing just the opposite of what 650 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 1: his job would normally dictate, that is, to protect those 651 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 1: that are in dire straits, those that are in danger. Instead, 652 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 1: he subjected the person that he shares a home with, 653 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: shares a marriage vow with, to the ultimate, the ultimate betrayal, 654 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,600 Speaker 1: that is that Marcy West is no longer with us. 655 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: She's now dead at the hands of her own husband. 656 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 1: I can tell you this, Kevin West has got about 657 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 1: a month from right now to kind of cool his heels, 658 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: because on February the twenty seventh of twenty twenty six 659 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 1: in Clark County, Washington State, he's going to be sentenced 660 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,239 Speaker 1: and he will pay the price for what he did 661 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: to his wife. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 662 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: body Packs