WEBVTT - The Allure of QAnon 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:23.836 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:23.836 --> 0:00:26.956 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:27.356 --> 0:00:31.876 I'm Noah Feldman. A few weeks ago, Donald Trump seemed 0:00:32.076 --> 0:00:36.036 to be offering some support for a conspiracy theory movement 0:00:36.276 --> 0:00:40.236 called QAnon. When asked about it, Trump said that its 0:00:40.276 --> 0:00:44.996 followers quote love our country. Meanwhile, over seventy supporters of 0:00:45.036 --> 0:00:47.756 quanon have run for Congress in the cycle. One of 0:00:47.756 --> 0:00:51.676 the candidates, Marjorie Green, has won the Republican nomination and 0:00:51.796 --> 0:00:54.516 is almost certain to be elected to the House of Representatives. 0:00:55.796 --> 0:00:58.996 Here to discuss the emergence of quanon and its distinctive 0:00:59.116 --> 0:01:03.076 character with US is Adrian Han. Adrian is the founder 0:01:03.076 --> 0:01:06.596 of a London based game company called six to Start. 0:01:07.356 --> 0:01:09.676 He's been a journalist as well as a game designer, 0:01:09.876 --> 0:01:11.876 and he says that part of the way we should 0:01:11.916 --> 0:01:15.476 understand QAnon's success is to realize that in the way 0:01:15.516 --> 0:01:26.236 that it functions, it works a little bit like a game. Adrian, 0:01:26.276 --> 0:01:28.716 I wanted to talk to you about a topic on 0:01:28.716 --> 0:01:31.396 which you've become i would say, a leading public intellectual, 0:01:31.876 --> 0:01:36.436 and that is a deeper understanding of what is going 0:01:36.476 --> 0:01:41.916 on in the universe of QAnon, particularly why this immersive 0:01:42.556 --> 0:01:48.756 experience of conspiracy resonates in a contemporary moment in particular, 0:01:48.796 --> 0:01:50.116 And I wonder if you would start by just saying 0:01:50.156 --> 0:01:54.116 a little bit about your interesting, creative and I think 0:01:54.396 --> 0:01:58.316 quite personally informed theory of what's going on. So I 0:01:58.436 --> 0:02:03.236 think the thing that struck me about QAnon is the 0:02:03.276 --> 0:02:06.516 way in which people describe how they discovered and how 0:02:06.556 --> 0:02:10.396 they really came to believe in it. Q obviously encapsulates 0:02:10.436 --> 0:02:13.796 so many different theories and ideas, you know, five G 0:02:14.036 --> 0:02:18.796 conspiracies or charge trafficking. But the thing that a lot 0:02:18.796 --> 0:02:22.516 of people say when they begin to believe in q 0:02:22.676 --> 0:02:25.156 and on is they say they did their research. A 0:02:25.276 --> 0:02:27.516 catchphrase that when here is a lot, I did the research, 0:02:27.596 --> 0:02:29.756 or I did my research right, and now'll tell other 0:02:29.796 --> 0:02:33.396 people you should do your research if they are skeptical 0:02:33.436 --> 0:02:35.876 about q andon. You know, I just kept seeing that 0:02:35.916 --> 0:02:38.916 again and again and again, and I think we all 0:02:38.956 --> 0:02:41.276 know what that looks like. It looks like someone typing 0:02:41.276 --> 0:02:44.356 into Google or Facebook q and on right and quanon 0:02:44.636 --> 0:02:48.036 plus charge trafficking or that sort of thing, and they 0:02:48.076 --> 0:02:51.796 get a list of results, you know, news stories perhaps 0:02:51.916 --> 0:02:55.596 or blog posts, but usually the highest racking stuff will 0:02:55.676 --> 0:03:00.996 be or has been, conspiracy theories and pretty unreliable material, 0:03:01.276 --> 0:03:05.596 and that's what passed us for research, and it reminded 0:03:05.676 --> 0:03:10.076 me of a particular type of games that I make 0:03:10.396 --> 0:03:12.596 and that has been popular in the past, called alternate 0:03:12.636 --> 0:03:17.316 reality games. And those games are unique because they are 0:03:17.396 --> 0:03:21.796 trying to make a really immersive experience for players. So 0:03:21.916 --> 0:03:24.676 unlike again like Fortnite or Candy Gross that you play 0:03:24.716 --> 0:03:28.276 on a console or a TV or a moa, alternate 0:03:28.276 --> 0:03:32.316 reality games try to tell their stories across as many 0:03:32.396 --> 0:03:35.676 media and platforms as possible, so you might get phone 0:03:35.676 --> 0:03:38.916 calls in these games, or you might meet real world actors, 0:03:39.156 --> 0:03:41.436 or you might go to websites and that sort of thing. 0:03:41.676 --> 0:03:44.796 So they're trying to mimic reality or create an alternate reality. 0:03:45.356 --> 0:03:48.676 And the way in which a lot of alternate reality 0:03:48.716 --> 0:03:52.476 games start is by seeing a strange phrase or picture 0:03:52.876 --> 0:03:55.716 or signed somewhere in the real world, like in a 0:03:55.756 --> 0:03:59.916 newspaper or a movie trailer, and then you google it 0:04:00.316 --> 0:04:04.996 and the creators of that game will have seeded some 0:04:05.116 --> 0:04:09.036 web pages or some YouTube videos or similar with interesting 0:04:09.116 --> 0:04:12.316 results that lead you down this rabbit hole. And we 0:04:12.356 --> 0:04:14.916 would literally call it rabbit hole when we design these 0:04:14.956 --> 0:04:17.756 games in order to kind of drow you into this 0:04:17.876 --> 0:04:22.956 really interesting fictional world. And it really struck me to 0:04:22.996 --> 0:04:27.236 see the similarities, at least in how people ended quanon 0:04:27.876 --> 0:04:32.316 with alternate reality games, which actually quite old. Now many 0:04:32.356 --> 0:04:35.796 fascinating things here. Let's start with the phrase I did 0:04:35.876 --> 0:04:38.436 my research or do your research, and you mentioned it 0:04:38.436 --> 0:04:41.396 from most people that just involves googling. I wonder if 0:04:41.396 --> 0:04:43.916 it doesn't go it a little bit more deeply, because 0:04:44.236 --> 0:04:47.156 what you're describing in the context of the alternate reality games, 0:04:47.356 --> 0:04:50.036 when they're well built, as I'm sure yours are, is 0:04:50.036 --> 0:04:53.436 that a person who's playing the game doesn't just google, 0:04:53.476 --> 0:04:56.076 which is the beginning step, but then goes deeper and 0:04:56.116 --> 0:04:58.996 begins to search out the clues, and then the game 0:04:59.036 --> 0:05:02.716 becomes more immersive. I'm imagining as he or she goes 0:05:02.716 --> 0:05:06.316 down rabbit holes, finds more clues, and essentially builds up 0:05:06.316 --> 0:05:10.676 a universe of meaning that you've seeded for or for her. Presumably, 0:05:10.716 --> 0:05:12.836 when the QAnon people say I did my research, they 0:05:12.876 --> 0:05:15.836 don't judst me in the initial search. They mean digging 0:05:15.876 --> 0:05:20.116 down and having the experience, in scare quotes of discovering 0:05:20.276 --> 0:05:22.556 layers of meaning I mean, I think if a player 0:05:22.596 --> 0:05:24.516 is playing an alternate reality game and it goes months 0:05:24.516 --> 0:05:26.956 and months and can't find another clue, that probably won't 0:05:26.996 --> 0:05:30.436 hold the player's attention. I'm just guessing Similarly, in QAnon, 0:05:31.196 --> 0:05:32.796 the person has to be able to say, aha, I 0:05:32.796 --> 0:05:36.156 found yet another validator, I found yet another validator. Right. 0:05:36.196 --> 0:05:39.876 It needs to be sufficiently messy, but not too messy 0:05:39.956 --> 0:05:43.316 so that it just seems like it's completely constructed. And 0:05:43.396 --> 0:05:47.156 I think that people want it to reflect the complexity 0:05:47.156 --> 0:05:51.596 of reality. So you will see contradictory ideas in QAnon, 0:05:51.676 --> 0:05:55.036 and you'll see contradictory posters. And that's why often when 0:05:55.036 --> 0:05:57.316 people point out contradictions in q and on, that doesn't 0:05:57.316 --> 0:06:00.796 magically mean that people stop believing, because people kind of 0:06:00.876 --> 0:06:04.596 enjoy trying to tease out the different sort of possibilities 0:06:04.636 --> 0:06:07.836 and contradictions within the conspiracy theory. And so I think 0:06:07.876 --> 0:06:12.396 that when it comes to the experience that people have 0:06:12.956 --> 0:06:15.876 when they're research in QAnon and when they're playing alternate 0:06:15.956 --> 0:06:19.836 reality games, it's like you're a detective. It's actually quite 0:06:19.876 --> 0:06:23.516 pleasurable to go down these different fabbit holes and to 0:06:23.556 --> 0:06:26.596 see one idea here and to follow what seems like 0:06:26.636 --> 0:06:28.796 a clue and to what do YouTube video from six 0:06:28.836 --> 0:06:30.916 months ago saying well, if you look in the background 0:06:30.996 --> 0:06:32.996 of this photo here and you can see someone making 0:06:32.996 --> 0:06:35.956 this hand signal, and you might think, oh, I've seen 0:06:35.956 --> 0:06:38.716 that before in another photo, and you start to create 0:06:38.756 --> 0:06:42.156 your own connections as well as following connections that people 0:06:42.156 --> 0:06:45.796 have made for you. The obvious difference between QAnon and 0:06:45.956 --> 0:06:48.676 the Alter Reality game is that in QAnon, no one 0:06:48.716 --> 0:06:52.436 has constructed, No person, no team of designers has actually 0:06:52.476 --> 0:06:56.316 constructed the game. So when the Easter eggs are discovered, 0:06:56.716 --> 0:07:00.436 they're not discovered. They're invented or made by the active 0:07:00.436 --> 0:07:03.676 interpretation of the person who is quote unquote doing his 0:07:03.756 --> 0:07:05.996 or her research, and by the community that says, aha, 0:07:06.076 --> 0:07:08.036 you found this, and this is indeed an Easter egg. 0:07:09.196 --> 0:07:12.156 That interests me in the psychological question of design for you, 0:07:12.316 --> 0:07:15.916 when you are designing a game like this, how much 0:07:16.036 --> 0:07:20.116 validation do you give the player, the user when he 0:07:20.236 --> 0:07:22.476 or she has found one of your Easter eggs, to 0:07:22.596 --> 0:07:25.676 know you actually found an Easter egg here? And then 0:07:25.716 --> 0:07:28.076 the question from there would be how is it working 0:07:28.116 --> 0:07:30.076 for people from whom no one has done the design. 0:07:30.636 --> 0:07:33.556 I think that's a really good question. So with alternate 0:07:33.596 --> 0:07:36.556 reality games, you don't want to be giving so much 0:07:36.596 --> 0:07:38.796 feedback that they feel that they're playing a video game. 0:07:38.916 --> 0:07:40.836 That's not what people play these games for. Where you 0:07:40.876 --> 0:07:45.036 get but you don't want achievement bad just appearing immediately. 0:07:45.436 --> 0:07:48.356 At the same time, if you don't give that kind 0:07:48.396 --> 0:07:51.436 of feedback eventually, then often what happens is they just 0:07:51.476 --> 0:07:54.836 get completely down the long path because they following something 0:07:54.876 --> 0:07:58.876 that seems believable and maybe is somewhat internally consistent, but 0:07:59.036 --> 0:08:00.796 is not the path that you want them to go down. 0:08:01.676 --> 0:08:05.876 So we would have we'll be having to monitor the 0:08:05.956 --> 0:08:08.876 player forums and player chat rooms all the time, which 0:08:08.956 --> 0:08:11.836 was full time twenty four seven job really to make 0:08:11.876 --> 0:08:14.996 sure they didn't get too far off track, and we 0:08:15.036 --> 0:08:18.116 would use whatever means we had available to sort of 0:08:18.156 --> 0:08:21.716 steer them correctly. And that's because they're playing these games collectively. 0:08:22.076 --> 0:08:24.996 They're playing the games collectively. That's hugely important. I think 0:08:24.996 --> 0:08:28.036 it may be lost on a lot of listeners like me, 0:08:28.196 --> 0:08:31.236 but if people are playing collectively, they're creating meaning collectively, 0:08:31.236 --> 0:08:33.956 and that might really matter for understanding how QAnon is working. 0:08:34.196 --> 0:08:37.196 That's right. Most alternate reality games take place in real 0:08:37.196 --> 0:08:40.116 time with everyone proceeding at the same rate. So it's 0:08:40.116 --> 0:08:42.516 not like a game or even a multiplayer game where 0:08:42.516 --> 0:08:45.436 you can proceed at different rates. The whole world of 0:08:45.436 --> 0:08:48.356 the alternate reality game is unfolding at the same rates 0:08:48.356 --> 0:08:51.596 for every single player. That means that if someone solves 0:08:51.596 --> 0:08:55.996 a puzzle, it is effectively solved for everyone. So you know, 0:08:56.076 --> 0:08:59.956 that means that it is a different kind of experience, 0:09:00.116 --> 0:09:04.396 and people can solve puzzles extremely quickly basically, so we 0:09:04.556 --> 0:09:07.796 have to make games and stories and puzzles that are 0:09:08.156 --> 0:09:11.476 sufficiently compact one person or ten people console them on 0:09:11.516 --> 0:09:14.356 their own. You need a community of thousands or hundreds 0:09:14.356 --> 0:09:17.076 of thousands to solve them. And on the one hand, 0:09:17.116 --> 0:09:19.476 that sounds just ridiculous who would want to play such 0:09:19.476 --> 0:09:23.516 a complex game. But there is something really compelling about 0:09:23.756 --> 0:09:29.316 being part of a solving community that allows you to 0:09:29.436 --> 0:09:33.556 feel like you're working towards a bigger purpose. And even 0:09:33.636 --> 0:09:37.596 if you can't solve a particular puzzle, you can maybe 0:09:37.716 --> 0:09:40.516 contribute a small part of that. And one of the 0:09:40.596 --> 0:09:43.716 really interesting things about alternate reality games is often the 0:09:43.756 --> 0:09:46.836 players come up with better theories and ideas of how 0:09:46.876 --> 0:09:50.676 the story should proceed than we have done ourselves, and 0:09:51.196 --> 0:09:54.756 some writers might just try and ignore that and try 0:09:54.756 --> 0:09:57.756 and keep going down the same path, the same story 0:09:57.796 --> 0:10:00.516 path that you've planned out six months ago. But if 0:10:00.516 --> 0:10:03.516 you see the players getting really excited about particular development 0:10:03.676 --> 0:10:07.756 or particular prediction, what we try to do is incorporated 0:10:07.756 --> 0:10:10.836 back into the story in real time, which means that 0:10:11.356 --> 0:10:13.876 we might have to rewrite entire websites or emails, or 0:10:14.316 --> 0:10:18.196 we've record phone calls, and that is something that people 0:10:18.196 --> 0:10:20.796 find really pleasurable because it makes it feel like they 0:10:20.796 --> 0:10:22.956 are part of a living world. And I think that's 0:10:22.956 --> 0:10:25.796 something that is kind of interesting with QAnon because it's 0:10:25.876 --> 0:10:30.636 always hamping to incorporate new information about news, about politics. 0:10:31.196 --> 0:10:34.996 It's not a conspiracy theory about how Edian's built the 0:10:35.036 --> 0:10:38.276 pyramids where the facts aren't really changing. It's a real 0:10:38.316 --> 0:10:43.196 time conspiracy theory, and that requires a different kind of 0:10:43.196 --> 0:10:47.556 construction of understanding the world. Dan, I want to ask 0:10:47.556 --> 0:10:52.276 you about directions of influence and interchange. You've been I 0:10:52.316 --> 0:10:55.396 think very careful. Everything that I've read of yours has 0:10:55.436 --> 0:10:59.916 shown great care in not saying one is causing the other. Here, 0:11:00.356 --> 0:11:02.916 QAnon is caused by alter reality games or the games 0:11:02.956 --> 0:11:06.276 have contributed to QAnon. You've just pointed to similarities, and 0:11:06.356 --> 0:11:08.716 I want to push on that a little bit. One 0:11:08.716 --> 0:11:13.716 past interpretation I could imagine is that QAnon is popular 0:11:13.956 --> 0:11:16.476 in many of the ways that conspiracy theorists have always 0:11:16.516 --> 0:11:19.676 been popular, because it is a mode of interpreting the 0:11:19.716 --> 0:11:22.916 world around us, and in the end, that's what religion 0:11:22.956 --> 0:11:24.996 has always done in a way, it's what science does, 0:11:25.236 --> 0:11:28.076 that's what some kinds of philosophy do, makes an effort 0:11:28.276 --> 0:11:31.316 to create a coherent narrative out of the phenomena that 0:11:31.356 --> 0:11:34.116 we encounter every day, which taken on their own, don't 0:11:34.156 --> 0:11:37.676 intuitively seem to cohere with each other. And on that view, 0:11:37.876 --> 0:11:42.196 the reason for the similarity between your games and QAnon 0:11:42.996 --> 0:11:46.076 is that your games are also really good proxies for 0:11:46.156 --> 0:11:48.716 what it's like to interpret the world around us, So 0:11:48.756 --> 0:11:51.596 they're appealing for sort of the same reasons that quanan 0:11:51.716 --> 0:11:56.036 is appealing, but without any sense of mutual encounter or influence. 0:11:56.596 --> 0:12:00.116 The other stronger hypothesis would be that actually, there's something 0:12:00.156 --> 0:12:02.676 about our moment in time and something about the way 0:12:02.716 --> 0:12:07.996 that the use of the digital world interacts with conspiracy 0:12:08.036 --> 0:12:12.916 theory that brings a closer similarity. Then would otherwise have existed. 0:12:12.956 --> 0:12:15.556 Between these two realms, which are those views do you 0:12:15.596 --> 0:12:21.556 tend towards. I think it's definitely true that the technology 0:12:21.676 --> 0:12:26.036 that we used and the types of social interactions that 0:12:26.076 --> 0:12:29.596 we took advantage of for alternate reality games are the 0:12:29.676 --> 0:12:32.956 same that people are using in q and on the 0:12:33.036 --> 0:12:38.436 community filtering aspect of YouTube and a reddit and of 0:12:38.476 --> 0:12:42.316 four chant is so important to the spread of things 0:12:42.356 --> 0:12:45.476 like QAnon, where if you didn't have the ability for 0:12:45.476 --> 0:12:49.556 people to up vote and to promote specific attractive ideas, 0:12:50.116 --> 0:12:53.116 it would just be a complete madouse. Honestly, it would 0:12:53.116 --> 0:12:55.116 just be thousands of thousands of people talking to each 0:12:55.116 --> 0:12:58.676 other and no way to filter that. But because we 0:12:58.716 --> 0:13:01.276 have these systems which are still pretty crude, I mean, 0:13:01.356 --> 0:13:06.396 up voting is pretty crude for people to identify attractive ideas. 0:13:06.756 --> 0:13:12.316 It allows a kind of evolutionary process to occur on 0:13:12.356 --> 0:13:15.516 a far faster time scale than what have happened if 0:13:15.516 --> 0:13:17.996 you're just doing everything with paper, and I think that's 0:13:17.996 --> 0:13:22.396 something that is really underestimated. We'll be back in a moment. 0:13:31.596 --> 0:13:33.636 I want to ask you about what you might call 0:13:33.676 --> 0:13:37.236 the regulatory impulse. You could imagine a person who is 0:13:37.276 --> 0:13:41.676 a good old fashioned, mainstream small l liberal, which I 0:13:41.756 --> 0:13:45.276 sometimes am, who says, you know, these kinds of conspiracy theories. 0:13:45.276 --> 0:13:47.476 We have to allow them to sundregate our society because 0:13:47.516 --> 0:13:50.516 we believe in freedom of expression. On the other hand, 0:13:50.876 --> 0:13:53.436 we don't have to promote their spread to the point 0:13:53.476 --> 0:13:57.316 where they have a substantial, dangerous and even eventually violent 0:13:57.716 --> 0:14:02.236 effect in the world. So the regulatory impulse says, thank you, 0:14:02.396 --> 0:14:05.356 Adrian for your wonderful diagnosis. You've helped us see why 0:14:05.396 --> 0:14:08.516 this works. Let's shut it down. Let's try to block 0:14:08.556 --> 0:14:12.156 it's viral. Let's try to block groups where people are 0:14:12.156 --> 0:14:14.036 discussing it. If the problem is that everyone is saying 0:14:14.036 --> 0:14:15.676 it together, let's make it harder for them to do. 0:14:15.716 --> 0:14:18.636 So where do you come down on the what I 0:14:18.636 --> 0:14:20.436 would call the regulatory impulse, And I'm trying to be 0:14:20.556 --> 0:14:24.556 neutral in describing that impulse. So Facebook and Twitter have 0:14:24.796 --> 0:14:30.036 been making efforts to try and reduce how quickly qun 0:14:30.116 --> 0:14:31.836 on can be amplified. So if you search for q 0:14:31.996 --> 0:14:35.036 and on YouTube, it will come up a disclaimer. If 0:14:35.036 --> 0:14:37.636 you search q and on accounts on Twitter, then you 0:14:37.716 --> 0:14:40.596 can't find them. I think that's clearly going to help. 0:14:40.596 --> 0:14:44.436 At the margin, I don't really think it does anything 0:14:44.476 --> 0:14:46.796 for people who are already into Q on on and 0:14:46.956 --> 0:14:50.436 to be honest, I think that we've already started seeing 0:14:51.156 --> 0:14:54.076 these sorts of ideas spread in private message groups and 0:14:54.156 --> 0:15:01.596 WhatsApp that are harder to control. I think that we 0:15:01.636 --> 0:15:04.716 all need to have a discussion about what role we 0:15:04.836 --> 0:15:07.836 want A small number of companies due to regulate speech. 0:15:08.116 --> 0:15:11.716 Basically Facebook, Twitter, Google, and I should say just full 0:15:11.716 --> 0:15:14.476 disclosure for listeners and for you that I have advised 0:15:14.516 --> 0:15:17.156 Facebook on some of their speech related issues. So I 0:15:17.196 --> 0:15:19.436 have a stake in this too, and I agree that 0:15:19.476 --> 0:15:21.276 there ought to be a conversation. But I guess what 0:15:21.316 --> 0:15:23.276 I'm asking you is, what would you like to contribute 0:15:23.276 --> 0:15:25.796 to that conversation. I think there needs to be more 0:15:25.796 --> 0:15:29.156 public regulation now exactly what that is. I think that 0:15:29.356 --> 0:15:33.716 there should be a discussion in democracies about what kind 0:15:33.716 --> 0:15:38.196 of speech we think is acceptable and how we should 0:15:38.916 --> 0:15:40.876 promote it or not. You know, I think there are 0:15:40.956 --> 0:15:43.556 things you can do at that technological level. At the 0:15:43.596 --> 0:15:46.436 same time, this is a symptom. It's not the cause. 0:15:46.436 --> 0:15:49.796 It didn't happen because of Facebook. You know, people believe 0:15:49.836 --> 0:15:52.356 in things like q and on because they have completely 0:15:52.356 --> 0:15:57.036 lost trust in government and authorities. And so while I 0:15:57.076 --> 0:15:59.636 think that there is probably some level of public regulation 0:15:59.796 --> 0:16:04.716 that should be introduced, I suspect that the only way 0:16:04.716 --> 0:16:07.956 you really get around this is by trying to figure 0:16:07.956 --> 0:16:12.756 out how you can restore trust, not necessarily in governments, 0:16:12.836 --> 0:16:15.196 because I think the governments have demonstrated a lot of 0:16:15.236 --> 0:16:17.796 comments recently have demonstrated that they aren't really to be 0:16:17.836 --> 0:16:21.156 trusted in certain areas. But I think you need to 0:16:21.156 --> 0:16:25.716 have trust in some institutions and some people, and the 0:16:25.756 --> 0:16:30.236 way that they can establish trust is through great a 0:16:30.276 --> 0:16:32.916 degree of transparency and great a degree of involving the 0:16:32.916 --> 0:16:37.476 community in how they gather data and how they interpret data. 0:16:37.556 --> 0:16:40.316 And when I say that to be really specific, you know, 0:16:40.356 --> 0:16:42.396 I think there's some really good examples of this. One 0:16:42.956 --> 0:16:46.476 is the COVID Tracking Project in the US, which is 0:16:46.596 --> 0:16:51.676 trying to create one of the more comprehensive databases of 0:16:51.956 --> 0:16:55.316 COVID cases and cover statistics in America. And they are 0:16:55.396 --> 0:17:01.116 going to publicly available information. But importantly, you can go 0:17:01.956 --> 0:17:05.436 and look at the entire chain of where they gather 0:17:05.476 --> 0:17:08.556 the information, which websites, how they archived, at how they 0:17:08.596 --> 0:17:10.516 process it. It's all open source. You can go into 0:17:10.556 --> 0:17:12.716 the chat rooms and talk to the people. So if 0:17:12.716 --> 0:17:16.356 you think that, oh no, this particular piece of information 0:17:16.796 --> 0:17:20.756 collected from Florida is wrong, I think it's inflated. You 0:17:20.756 --> 0:17:24.796 can see the footnotes about why it's there. Now are 0:17:25.116 --> 0:17:29.116 people going to drill down that far? Most people aren't. 0:17:29.676 --> 0:17:33.756 But I think that if you're able to quickly answer 0:17:33.836 --> 0:17:37.676 questions about, oh, well, these covered figures completely fake, if 0:17:37.676 --> 0:17:39.676 you can say no, they're not fake. Oh no, we 0:17:39.716 --> 0:17:41.956 did make a mistake last week, but here's our response 0:17:41.956 --> 0:17:45.796 to that. Rather than just stonewalling or saying, well, you're 0:17:45.836 --> 0:17:49.116 my political opponent and I don't believe you, then you 0:17:49.156 --> 0:17:51.756 can establish that trust. And I think that where this 0:17:51.876 --> 0:17:56.476 wraps around alternate reality games is the process of collecting 0:17:56.476 --> 0:17:59.476 that data and interpreting that data. It's not as fun 0:17:59.476 --> 0:18:02.756 as playing an a arg but it resembles it because 0:18:02.756 --> 0:18:04.796 it is a collective effort that cannot be done by 0:18:04.836 --> 0:18:07.076 one person. It can't just be done by software. It 0:18:07.116 --> 0:18:10.436 requires humans working together, and if you get the right people, 0:18:10.516 --> 0:18:14.716 it can feel like a very fulfilling process. And that's 0:18:14.756 --> 0:18:17.916 why I think that getting everyone involved in that project 0:18:18.636 --> 0:18:23.076 is so important. Could you say more about whether there 0:18:23.076 --> 0:18:26.876 are other productive things that alternate reality games can contribute here. 0:18:27.196 --> 0:18:28.756 And I'll tell you, I'll sor put my cards in 0:18:28.796 --> 0:18:31.756 the table. What the philosophical question behind it is. To me, 0:18:31.796 --> 0:18:35.676 it seems like what's appealing about those games is that 0:18:35.756 --> 0:18:38.756 you're interpreting the universe and you know that there was 0:18:38.796 --> 0:18:42.116 a designer. So you may not get the answer, but 0:18:42.236 --> 0:18:43.716 you can try to get the answer. And there is 0:18:43.756 --> 0:18:46.476 an answer out there, which is how the world looks 0:18:46.476 --> 0:18:49.356 to religious believers. And I would include in that some 0:18:49.876 --> 0:18:54.116 very dogmatic religious believers in science, but it's not how 0:18:54.116 --> 0:18:55.996 the world functions a lot of the time, on a 0:18:56.036 --> 0:18:58.196 lot of the questions we care most about, there isn't 0:18:58.236 --> 0:19:01.516 a design out there? Is there a way that playing 0:19:01.556 --> 0:19:05.596 those games makes us believe or reinforces our belief that 0:19:05.636 --> 0:19:08.396 there must be a design? And if so, is that 0:19:08.436 --> 0:19:10.116 a good thing? I mean, if we believe that there 0:19:10.156 --> 0:19:12.196 is a design, maybe we would be more inclined to 0:19:12.196 --> 0:19:14.316 trust the authorities. Or is it the other way around 0:19:14.476 --> 0:19:17.676 that the more we play games, the more we acclimate 0:19:17.716 --> 0:19:22.076 ourselves to what is sometimes called, fancily the hermonutic of suspicion, 0:19:22.396 --> 0:19:24.516 this idea that the way I see the world is 0:19:24.516 --> 0:19:28.036 that I'm always suspicious of whatever data is presented to me. 0:19:28.876 --> 0:19:33.036 Can playing algies need to more sort of conspiratorial thinking 0:19:33.236 --> 0:19:34.436 or the other way By the way, I don't want 0:19:34.436 --> 0:19:37.476 to pre judge it. They could, I wouldn't they able 0:19:37.516 --> 0:19:41.796 to disprove that. I think that algies aren't really that 0:19:41.836 --> 0:19:44.716 popular anymore, so I don't think there's that much of 0:19:44.716 --> 0:19:46.796 a cause on link though it was quite difficult to 0:19:46.876 --> 0:19:49.916 make money from them. Now I would put it a 0:19:49.916 --> 0:19:52.316 different way. I think that when you play these games, 0:19:52.316 --> 0:19:54.676 you can feel like you can solve anything, and that's 0:19:54.716 --> 0:19:57.236 partly because the puzzles have been designed to be solved. 0:19:58.276 --> 0:20:01.196 But I do think that they can train you. They're 0:20:01.236 --> 0:20:04.316 like training wheels in the best case, for understanding how 0:20:04.356 --> 0:20:08.876 to use certain types of tools, how to organize groups online, 0:20:09.436 --> 0:20:12.916 how to share information and template information that actually can 0:20:12.956 --> 0:20:16.876 be used for good. And I do think that they 0:20:16.876 --> 0:20:20.796 are kind of kind of like hopeful games because they 0:20:20.836 --> 0:20:23.276 do you only solve them by working together, and I 0:20:23.276 --> 0:20:27.116 think that's kind of a really lovely thing. I wanted 0:20:27.156 --> 0:20:30.436 to ask you just about the broader question of the 0:20:30.556 --> 0:20:35.356 role of gaming in our society, particularly in this COVID era. 0:20:36.076 --> 0:20:38.996 You know, until COVID began. I, like a lot of 0:20:39.156 --> 0:20:42.436 parents of young kids, tried to limit the amount of 0:20:42.436 --> 0:20:45.116 time my kids who were playing games. I thought it 0:20:45.156 --> 0:20:48.116 was fine in some bound, but I didn't want it 0:20:48.156 --> 0:20:51.436 to swallow up their lives. Suddenly they were at home, 0:20:51.476 --> 0:20:54.156 they weren't able to see their friends because of social distancing. 0:20:54.196 --> 0:20:55.996 The games were one way in which they could interact 0:20:56.036 --> 0:20:58.676 with other human beings, and suddenly they seemed far superior 0:20:58.716 --> 0:21:01.556 to any activity that was not interactive. And I don't 0:21:01.596 --> 0:21:04.196 think I'm unique in having gone through this trajectory. Do 0:21:04.236 --> 0:21:07.196 you have a sense of how the gaming community more broadly, 0:21:07.196 --> 0:21:10.556 the industry in the community more broadly, are being affected 0:21:10.556 --> 0:21:13.876 by or thinking about this strange historical moment that we're in. 0:21:14.276 --> 0:21:17.436 I mean, games are booming. It's one of the few 0:21:17.476 --> 0:21:20.116 areas that's doing well in the economy, along with just 0:21:20.236 --> 0:21:24.796 TV and streaming. There is a massive amount of people 0:21:24.796 --> 0:21:27.396 playing games now. We can see that in the stats 0:21:27.436 --> 0:21:31.676 of simultaneous players of big games. Consoles at the switch 0:21:31.756 --> 0:21:35.836 are just selling out. Exercise games, interestingly in Japan are 0:21:35.836 --> 0:21:38.916 selling out extremely quickly. You know, people are saying that 0:21:38.996 --> 0:21:44.196 games are very good way of socializing. That is not 0:21:44.276 --> 0:21:48.356 just having endless zoom calls basically. You know. The other 0:21:48.396 --> 0:21:53.076 interesting thing about games, I would say is that unlike 0:21:53.116 --> 0:21:56.236 TV shows, which can be consumed in a lockdown but 0:21:56.316 --> 0:21:59.356 can't really be created and lockdown as effectively, games can 0:21:59.396 --> 0:22:03.036 be created and consumed very well in a lockdown. A 0:22:03.076 --> 0:22:06.076 lot of games companies are pretty well suited to working 0:22:06.116 --> 0:22:08.956 remotely because it's all just on our computers. You don't 0:22:09.196 --> 0:22:12.796 have actors or all things of that. And so the 0:22:12.876 --> 0:22:16.596 great of production has not really slowed down for games. 0:22:16.916 --> 0:22:19.516 And so while everyone's watching TV, there are a a lot 0:22:19.516 --> 0:22:21.436 of new TV shows coming out, but there are a 0:22:21.476 --> 0:22:24.236 lot of games coming out, and that's really a now 0:22:24.316 --> 0:22:30.756 the industry to thrive in this strange moment. Do you, yourself, 0:22:30.796 --> 0:22:33.036 in your own life, or when you're advising people whom 0:22:33.076 --> 0:22:37.116 you know, have some ideas about proper ratio of human 0:22:37.196 --> 0:22:40.436 time that should be spent on And I'm including interactive 0:22:40.476 --> 0:22:42.916 games here, I mean obviously in a lockdown, when one 0:22:42.956 --> 0:22:46.676 doesn't have the option of in person socializing, it may 0:22:46.716 --> 0:22:48.756 be better to socialize through a game than not to 0:22:48.836 --> 0:22:50.676 socialize at all. In fact, I tend to think that 0:22:50.676 --> 0:22:54.276 that's the case. But when an af we return to 0:22:54.356 --> 0:22:57.636 some capacity for social interaction. Do you have a general 0:22:57.756 --> 0:23:01.196 view on whether it's a bad thing. As a proportion 0:23:01.236 --> 0:23:03.916 of all their social interactions, the percentage that are happening 0:23:04.276 --> 0:23:08.076 mediated via games are high versus slow. You know, I 0:23:08.476 --> 0:23:11.036 think this is a really hard question to get right, 0:23:11.076 --> 0:23:13.356 because it really depends on what time window you're looking at. 0:23:13.436 --> 0:23:15.436 I think there's a temptation to go and say, well, 0:23:15.436 --> 0:23:17.236 you should spend two hours a day or one hour 0:23:17.236 --> 0:23:19.236