1
00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:23,836
Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show

2
00:00:23,836 --> 00:00:26,956
Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news.

3
00:00:27,356 --> 00:00:31,876
Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. A few weeks ago, Donald Trump seemed

4
00:00:32,076 --> 00:00:36,036
Speaker 1: to be offering some support for a conspiracy theory movement

5
00:00:36,276 --> 00:00:40,236
Speaker 1: called QAnon. When asked about it, Trump said that its

6
00:00:40,276 --> 00:00:44,996
Speaker 1: followers quote love our country. Meanwhile, over seventy supporters of

7
00:00:45,036 --> 00:00:47,756
Speaker 1: quanon have run for Congress in the cycle. One of

8
00:00:47,756 --> 00:00:51,676
Speaker 1: the candidates, Marjorie Green, has won the Republican nomination and

9
00:00:51,796 --> 00:00:54,516
Speaker 1: is almost certain to be elected to the House of Representatives.

10
00:00:55,796 --> 00:00:58,996
Speaker 1: Here to discuss the emergence of quanon and its distinctive

11
00:00:59,116 --> 00:01:03,076
Speaker 1: character with US is Adrian Han. Adrian is the founder

12
00:01:03,076 --> 00:01:06,596
Speaker 1: of a London based game company called six to Start.

13
00:01:07,356 --> 00:01:09,676
Speaker 1: He's been a journalist as well as a game designer,

14
00:01:09,876 --> 00:01:11,876
Speaker 1: and he says that part of the way we should

15
00:01:11,916 --> 00:01:15,476
Speaker 1: understand QAnon's success is to realize that in the way

16
00:01:15,516 --> 00:01:26,236
Speaker 1: that it functions, it works a little bit like a game. Adrian,

17
00:01:26,276 --> 00:01:28,716
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to you about a topic on

18
00:01:28,716 --> 00:01:31,396
Speaker 1: which you've become i would say, a leading public intellectual,

19
00:01:31,876 --> 00:01:36,436
Speaker 1: and that is a deeper understanding of what is going

20
00:01:36,476 --> 00:01:41,916
Speaker 1: on in the universe of QAnon, particularly why this immersive

21
00:01:42,556 --> 00:01:48,756
Speaker 1: experience of conspiracy resonates in a contemporary moment in particular,

22
00:01:48,796 --> 00:01:50,116
Speaker 1: And I wonder if you would start by just saying

23
00:01:50,156 --> 00:01:54,116
Speaker 1: a little bit about your interesting, creative and I think

24
00:01:54,396 --> 00:01:58,316
Speaker 1: quite personally informed theory of what's going on. So I

25
00:01:58,436 --> 00:02:03,236
Speaker 1: think the thing that struck me about QAnon is the

26
00:02:03,276 --> 00:02:06,516
Speaker 1: way in which people describe how they discovered and how

27
00:02:06,556 --> 00:02:10,396
Speaker 1: they really came to believe in it. Q obviously encapsulates

28
00:02:10,436 --> 00:02:13,796
Speaker 1: so many different theories and ideas, you know, five G

29
00:02:14,036 --> 00:02:18,796
Speaker 1: conspiracies or charge trafficking. But the thing that a lot

30
00:02:18,796 --> 00:02:22,516
Speaker 1: of people say when they begin to believe in q

31
00:02:22,676 --> 00:02:25,156
Speaker 1: and on is they say they did their research. A

32
00:02:25,276 --> 00:02:27,516
Speaker 1: catchphrase that when here is a lot, I did the research,

33
00:02:27,596 --> 00:02:29,756
Speaker 1: or I did my research right, and now'll tell other

34
00:02:29,796 --> 00:02:33,396
Speaker 1: people you should do your research if they are skeptical

35
00:02:33,436 --> 00:02:35,876
Speaker 1: about q andon. You know, I just kept seeing that

36
00:02:35,916 --> 00:02:38,916
Speaker 1: again and again and again, and I think we all

37
00:02:38,956 --> 00:02:41,276
Speaker 1: know what that looks like. It looks like someone typing

38
00:02:41,276 --> 00:02:44,356
Speaker 1: into Google or Facebook q and on right and quanon

39
00:02:44,636 --> 00:02:48,036
Speaker 1: plus charge trafficking or that sort of thing, and they

40
00:02:48,076 --> 00:02:51,796
Speaker 1: get a list of results, you know, news stories perhaps

41
00:02:51,916 --> 00:02:55,596
Speaker 1: or blog posts, but usually the highest racking stuff will

42
00:02:55,676 --> 00:03:00,996
Speaker 1: be or has been, conspiracy theories and pretty unreliable material,

43
00:03:01,276 --> 00:03:05,596
Speaker 1: and that's what passed us for research, and it reminded

44
00:03:05,676 --> 00:03:10,076
Speaker 1: me of a particular type of games that I make

45
00:03:10,396 --> 00:03:12,596
Speaker 1: and that has been popular in the past, called alternate

46
00:03:12,636 --> 00:03:17,316
Speaker 1: reality games. And those games are unique because they are

47
00:03:17,396 --> 00:03:21,796
Speaker 1: trying to make a really immersive experience for players. So

48
00:03:21,916 --> 00:03:24,676
Speaker 1: unlike again like Fortnite or Candy Gross that you play

49
00:03:24,716 --> 00:03:28,276
Speaker 1: on a console or a TV or a moa, alternate

50
00:03:28,276 --> 00:03:32,316
Speaker 1: reality games try to tell their stories across as many

51
00:03:32,396 --> 00:03:35,676
Speaker 1: media and platforms as possible, so you might get phone

52
00:03:35,676 --> 00:03:38,916
Speaker 1: calls in these games, or you might meet real world actors,

53
00:03:39,156 --> 00:03:41,436
Speaker 1: or you might go to websites and that sort of thing.

54
00:03:41,676 --> 00:03:44,796
Speaker 1: So they're trying to mimic reality or create an alternate reality.

55
00:03:45,356 --> 00:03:48,676
Speaker 1: And the way in which a lot of alternate reality

56
00:03:48,716 --> 00:03:52,476
Speaker 1: games start is by seeing a strange phrase or picture

57
00:03:52,876 --> 00:03:55,716
Speaker 1: or signed somewhere in the real world, like in a

58
00:03:55,756 --> 00:03:59,916
Speaker 1: newspaper or a movie trailer, and then you google it

59
00:04:00,316 --> 00:04:04,996
Speaker 1: and the creators of that game will have seeded some

60
00:04:05,116 --> 00:04:09,036
Speaker 1: web pages or some YouTube videos or similar with interesting

61
00:04:09,116 --> 00:04:12,316
Speaker 1: results that lead you down this rabbit hole. And we

62
00:04:12,356 --> 00:04:14,916
Speaker 1: would literally call it rabbit hole when we design these

63
00:04:14,956 --> 00:04:17,756
Speaker 1: games in order to kind of drow you into this

64
00:04:17,876 --> 00:04:22,956
Speaker 1: really interesting fictional world. And it really struck me to

65
00:04:22,996 --> 00:04:27,236
Speaker 1: see the similarities, at least in how people ended quanon

66
00:04:27,876 --> 00:04:32,316
Speaker 1: with alternate reality games, which actually quite old. Now many

67
00:04:32,356 --> 00:04:35,796
Speaker 1: fascinating things here. Let's start with the phrase I did

68
00:04:35,876 --> 00:04:38,436
Speaker 1: my research or do your research, and you mentioned it

69
00:04:38,436 --> 00:04:41,396
Speaker 1: from most people that just involves googling. I wonder if

70
00:04:41,396 --> 00:04:43,916
Speaker 1: it doesn't go it a little bit more deeply, because

71
00:04:44,236 --> 00:04:47,156
Speaker 1: what you're describing in the context of the alternate reality games,

72
00:04:47,356 --> 00:04:50,036
Speaker 1: when they're well built, as I'm sure yours are, is

73
00:04:50,036 --> 00:04:53,436
Speaker 1: that a person who's playing the game doesn't just google,

74
00:04:53,476 --> 00:04:56,076
Speaker 1: which is the beginning step, but then goes deeper and

75
00:04:56,116 --> 00:04:58,996
Speaker 1: begins to search out the clues, and then the game

76
00:04:59,036 --> 00:05:02,716
Speaker 1: becomes more immersive. I'm imagining as he or she goes

77
00:05:02,716 --> 00:05:06,316
Speaker 1: down rabbit holes, finds more clues, and essentially builds up

78
00:05:06,316 --> 00:05:10,676
Speaker 1: a universe of meaning that you've seeded for or for her. Presumably,

79
00:05:10,716 --> 00:05:12,836
Speaker 1: when the QAnon people say I did my research, they

80
00:05:12,876 --> 00:05:15,836
Speaker 1: don't judst me in the initial search. They mean digging

81
00:05:15,876 --> 00:05:20,116
Speaker 1: down and having the experience, in scare quotes of discovering

82
00:05:20,276 --> 00:05:22,556
Speaker 1: layers of meaning I mean, I think if a player

83
00:05:22,596 --> 00:05:24,516
Speaker 1: is playing an alternate reality game and it goes months

84
00:05:24,516 --> 00:05:26,956
Speaker 1: and months and can't find another clue, that probably won't

85
00:05:26,996 --> 00:05:30,436
Speaker 1: hold the player's attention. I'm just guessing Similarly, in QAnon,

86
00:05:31,196 --> 00:05:32,796
Speaker 1: the person has to be able to say, aha, I

87
00:05:32,796 --> 00:05:36,156
Speaker 1: found yet another validator, I found yet another validator. Right.

88
00:05:36,196 --> 00:05:39,876
Speaker 1: It needs to be sufficiently messy, but not too messy

89
00:05:39,956 --> 00:05:43,316
Speaker 1: so that it just seems like it's completely constructed. And

90
00:05:43,396 --> 00:05:47,156
Speaker 1: I think that people want it to reflect the complexity

91
00:05:47,156 --> 00:05:51,596
Speaker 1: of reality. So you will see contradictory ideas in QAnon,

92
00:05:51,676 --> 00:05:55,036
Speaker 1: and you'll see contradictory posters. And that's why often when

93
00:05:55,036 --> 00:05:57,316
Speaker 1: people point out contradictions in q and on, that doesn't

94
00:05:57,316 --> 00:06:00,796
Speaker 1: magically mean that people stop believing, because people kind of

95
00:06:00,876 --> 00:06:04,596
Speaker 1: enjoy trying to tease out the different sort of possibilities

96
00:06:04,636 --> 00:06:07,836
Speaker 1: and contradictions within the conspiracy theory. And so I think

97
00:06:07,876 --> 00:06:12,396
Speaker 1: that when it comes to the experience that people have

98
00:06:12,956 --> 00:06:15,876
Speaker 1: when they're research in QAnon and when they're playing alternate

99
00:06:15,956 --> 00:06:19,836
Speaker 1: reality games, it's like you're a detective. It's actually quite

100
00:06:19,876 --> 00:06:23,516
Speaker 1: pleasurable to go down these different fabbit holes and to

101
00:06:23,556 --> 00:06:26,596
Speaker 1: see one idea here and to follow what seems like

102
00:06:26,636 --> 00:06:28,796
Speaker 1: a clue and to what do YouTube video from six

103
00:06:28,836 --> 00:06:30,916
Speaker 1: months ago saying well, if you look in the background

104
00:06:30,996 --> 00:06:32,996
Speaker 1: of this photo here and you can see someone making

105
00:06:32,996 --> 00:06:35,956
Speaker 1: this hand signal, and you might think, oh, I've seen

106
00:06:35,956 --> 00:06:38,716
Speaker 1: that before in another photo, and you start to create

107
00:06:38,756 --> 00:06:42,156
Speaker 1: your own connections as well as following connections that people

108
00:06:42,156 --> 00:06:45,796
Speaker 1: have made for you. The obvious difference between QAnon and

109
00:06:45,956 --> 00:06:48,676
Speaker 1: the Alter Reality game is that in QAnon, no one

110
00:06:48,716 --> 00:06:52,436
Speaker 1: has constructed, No person, no team of designers has actually

111
00:06:52,476 --> 00:06:56,316
Speaker 1: constructed the game. So when the Easter eggs are discovered,

112
00:06:56,716 --> 00:07:00,436
Speaker 1: they're not discovered. They're invented or made by the active

113
00:07:00,436 --> 00:07:03,676
Speaker 1: interpretation of the person who is quote unquote doing his

114
00:07:03,756 --> 00:07:05,996
Speaker 1: or her research, and by the community that says, aha,

115
00:07:06,076 --> 00:07:08,036
Speaker 1: you found this, and this is indeed an Easter egg.

116
00:07:09,196 --> 00:07:12,156
Speaker 1: That interests me in the psychological question of design for you,

117
00:07:12,316 --> 00:07:15,916
Speaker 1: when you are designing a game like this, how much

118
00:07:16,036 --> 00:07:20,116
Speaker 1: validation do you give the player, the user when he

119
00:07:20,236 --> 00:07:22,476
Speaker 1: or she has found one of your Easter eggs, to

120
00:07:22,596 --> 00:07:25,676
Speaker 1: know you actually found an Easter egg here? And then

121
00:07:25,716 --> 00:07:28,076
Speaker 1: the question from there would be how is it working

122
00:07:28,116 --> 00:07:30,076
Speaker 1: for people from whom no one has done the design.

123
00:07:30,636 --> 00:07:33,556
Speaker 1: I think that's a really good question. So with alternate

124
00:07:33,596 --> 00:07:36,556
Speaker 1: reality games, you don't want to be giving so much

125
00:07:36,596 --> 00:07:38,796
Speaker 1: feedback that they feel that they're playing a video game.

126
00:07:38,916 --> 00:07:40,836
Speaker 1: That's not what people play these games for. Where you

127
00:07:40,876 --> 00:07:45,036
Speaker 1: get but you don't want achievement bad just appearing immediately.

128
00:07:45,436 --> 00:07:48,356
Speaker 1: At the same time, if you don't give that kind

129
00:07:48,396 --> 00:07:51,436
Speaker 1: of feedback eventually, then often what happens is they just

130
00:07:51,476 --> 00:07:54,836
Speaker 1: get completely down the long path because they following something

131
00:07:54,876 --> 00:07:58,876
Speaker 1: that seems believable and maybe is somewhat internally consistent, but

132
00:07:59,036 --> 00:08:00,796
Speaker 1: is not the path that you want them to go down.

133
00:08:01,676 --> 00:08:05,876
Speaker 1: So we would have we'll be having to monitor the

134
00:08:05,956 --> 00:08:08,876
Speaker 1: player forums and player chat rooms all the time, which

135
00:08:08,956 --> 00:08:11,836
Speaker 1: was full time twenty four seven job really to make

136
00:08:11,876 --> 00:08:14,996
Speaker 1: sure they didn't get too far off track, and we

137
00:08:15,036 --> 00:08:18,116
Speaker 1: would use whatever means we had available to sort of

138
00:08:18,156 --> 00:08:21,716
Speaker 1: steer them correctly. And that's because they're playing these games collectively.

139
00:08:22,076 --> 00:08:24,996
Speaker 1: They're playing the games collectively. That's hugely important. I think

140
00:08:24,996 --> 00:08:28,036
Speaker 1: it may be lost on a lot of listeners like me,

141
00:08:28,196 --> 00:08:31,236
Speaker 1: but if people are playing collectively, they're creating meaning collectively,

142
00:08:31,236 --> 00:08:33,956
Speaker 1: and that might really matter for understanding how QAnon is working.

143
00:08:34,196 --> 00:08:37,196
Speaker 1: That's right. Most alternate reality games take place in real

144
00:08:37,196 --> 00:08:40,116
Speaker 1: time with everyone proceeding at the same rate. So it's

145
00:08:40,116 --> 00:08:42,516
Speaker 1: not like a game or even a multiplayer game where

146
00:08:42,516 --> 00:08:45,436
Speaker 1: you can proceed at different rates. The whole world of

147
00:08:45,436 --> 00:08:48,356
Speaker 1: the alternate reality game is unfolding at the same rates

148
00:08:48,356 --> 00:08:51,596
Speaker 1: for every single player. That means that if someone solves

149
00:08:51,596 --> 00:08:55,996
Speaker 1: a puzzle, it is effectively solved for everyone. So you know,

150
00:08:56,076 --> 00:08:59,956
Speaker 1: that means that it is a different kind of experience,

151
00:09:00,116 --> 00:09:04,396
Speaker 1: and people can solve puzzles extremely quickly basically, so we

152
00:09:04,556 --> 00:09:07,796
Speaker 1: have to make games and stories and puzzles that are

153
00:09:08,156 --> 00:09:11,476
Speaker 1: sufficiently compact one person or ten people console them on

154
00:09:11,516 --> 00:09:14,356
Speaker 1: their own. You need a community of thousands or hundreds

155
00:09:14,356 --> 00:09:17,076
Speaker 1: of thousands to solve them. And on the one hand,

156
00:09:17,116 --> 00:09:19,476
Speaker 1: that sounds just ridiculous who would want to play such

157
00:09:19,476 --> 00:09:23,516
Speaker 1: a complex game. But there is something really compelling about

158
00:09:23,756 --> 00:09:29,316
Speaker 1: being part of a solving community that allows you to

159
00:09:29,436 --> 00:09:33,556
Speaker 1: feel like you're working towards a bigger purpose. And even

160
00:09:33,636 --> 00:09:37,596
Speaker 1: if you can't solve a particular puzzle, you can maybe

161
00:09:37,716 --> 00:09:40,516
Speaker 1: contribute a small part of that. And one of the

162
00:09:40,596 --> 00:09:43,716
Speaker 1: really interesting things about alternate reality games is often the

163
00:09:43,756 --> 00:09:46,836
Speaker 1: players come up with better theories and ideas of how

164
00:09:46,876 --> 00:09:50,676
Speaker 1: the story should proceed than we have done ourselves, and

165
00:09:51,196 --> 00:09:54,756
Speaker 1: some writers might just try and ignore that and try

166
00:09:54,756 --> 00:09:57,756
Speaker 1: and keep going down the same path, the same story

167
00:09:57,796 --> 00:10:00,516
Speaker 1: path that you've planned out six months ago. But if

168
00:10:00,516 --> 00:10:03,516
Speaker 1: you see the players getting really excited about particular development

169
00:10:03,676 --> 00:10:07,756
Speaker 1: or particular prediction, what we try to do is incorporated

170
00:10:07,756 --> 00:10:10,836
Speaker 1: back into the story in real time, which means that

171
00:10:11,356 --> 00:10:13,876
Speaker 1: we might have to rewrite entire websites or emails, or

172
00:10:14,316 --> 00:10:18,196
Speaker 1: we've record phone calls, and that is something that people

173
00:10:18,196 --> 00:10:20,796
Speaker 1: find really pleasurable because it makes it feel like they

174
00:10:20,796 --> 00:10:22,956
Speaker 1: are part of a living world. And I think that's

175
00:10:22,956 --> 00:10:25,796
Speaker 1: something that is kind of interesting with QAnon because it's

176
00:10:25,876 --> 00:10:30,636
Speaker 1: always hamping to incorporate new information about news, about politics.

177
00:10:31,196 --> 00:10:34,996
Speaker 1: It's not a conspiracy theory about how Edian's built the

178
00:10:35,036 --> 00:10:38,276
Speaker 1: pyramids where the facts aren't really changing. It's a real

179
00:10:38,316 --> 00:10:43,196
Speaker 1: time conspiracy theory, and that requires a different kind of

180
00:10:43,196 --> 00:10:47,556
Speaker 1: construction of understanding the world. Dan, I want to ask

181
00:10:47,556 --> 00:10:52,276
Speaker 1: you about directions of influence and interchange. You've been I

182
00:10:52,316 --> 00:10:55,396
Speaker 1: think very careful. Everything that I've read of yours has

183
00:10:55,436 --> 00:10:59,916
Speaker 1: shown great care in not saying one is causing the other. Here,

184
00:11:00,356 --> 00:11:02,916
Speaker 1: QAnon is caused by alter reality games or the games

185
00:11:02,956 --> 00:11:06,276
Speaker 1: have contributed to QAnon. You've just pointed to similarities, and

186
00:11:06,356 --> 00:11:08,716
Speaker 1: I want to push on that a little bit. One

187
00:11:08,716 --> 00:11:13,716
Speaker 1: past interpretation I could imagine is that QAnon is popular

188
00:11:13,956 --> 00:11:16,476
Speaker 1: in many of the ways that conspiracy theorists have always

189
00:11:16,516 --> 00:11:19,676
Speaker 1: been popular, because it is a mode of interpreting the

190
00:11:19,716 --> 00:11:22,916
Speaker 1: world around us, and in the end, that's what religion

191
00:11:22,956 --> 00:11:24,996
Speaker 1: has always done in a way, it's what science does,

192
00:11:25,236 --> 00:11:28,076
Speaker 1: that's what some kinds of philosophy do, makes an effort

193
00:11:28,276 --> 00:11:31,316
Speaker 1: to create a coherent narrative out of the phenomena that

194
00:11:31,356 --> 00:11:34,116
Speaker 1: we encounter every day, which taken on their own, don't

195
00:11:34,156 --> 00:11:37,676
Speaker 1: intuitively seem to cohere with each other. And on that view,

196
00:11:37,876 --> 00:11:42,196
Speaker 1: the reason for the similarity between your games and QAnon

197
00:11:42,996 --> 00:11:46,076
Speaker 1: is that your games are also really good proxies for

198
00:11:46,156 --> 00:11:48,716
Speaker 1: what it's like to interpret the world around us, So

199
00:11:48,756 --> 00:11:51,596
Speaker 1: they're appealing for sort of the same reasons that quanan

200
00:11:51,716 --> 00:11:56,036
Speaker 1: is appealing, but without any sense of mutual encounter or influence.

201
00:11:56,596 --> 00:12:00,116
Speaker 1: The other stronger hypothesis would be that actually, there's something

202
00:12:00,156 --> 00:12:02,676
Speaker 1: about our moment in time and something about the way

203
00:12:02,716 --> 00:12:07,996
Speaker 1: that the use of the digital world interacts with conspiracy

204
00:12:08,036 --> 00:12:12,916
Speaker 1: theory that brings a closer similarity. Then would otherwise have existed.

205
00:12:12,956 --> 00:12:15,556
Speaker 1: Between these two realms, which are those views do you

206
00:12:15,596 --> 00:12:21,556
Speaker 1: tend towards. I think it's definitely true that the technology

207
00:12:21,676 --> 00:12:26,036
Speaker 1: that we used and the types of social interactions that

208
00:12:26,076 --> 00:12:29,596
Speaker 1: we took advantage of for alternate reality games are the

209
00:12:29,676 --> 00:12:32,956
Speaker 1: same that people are using in q and on the

210
00:12:33,036 --> 00:12:38,436
Speaker 1: community filtering aspect of YouTube and a reddit and of

211
00:12:38,476 --> 00:12:42,316
Speaker 1: four chant is so important to the spread of things

212
00:12:42,356 --> 00:12:45,476
Speaker 1: like QAnon, where if you didn't have the ability for

213
00:12:45,476 --> 00:12:49,556
Speaker 1: people to up vote and to promote specific attractive ideas,

214
00:12:50,116 --> 00:12:53,116
Speaker 1: it would just be a complete madouse. Honestly, it would

215
00:12:53,116 --> 00:12:55,116
Speaker 1: just be thousands of thousands of people talking to each

216
00:12:55,116 --> 00:12:58,676
Speaker 1: other and no way to filter that. But because we

217
00:12:58,716 --> 00:13:01,276
Speaker 1: have these systems which are still pretty crude, I mean,

218
00:13:01,356 --> 00:13:06,396
Speaker 1: up voting is pretty crude for people to identify attractive ideas.

219
00:13:06,756 --> 00:13:12,316
Speaker 1: It allows a kind of evolutionary process to occur on

220
00:13:12,356 --> 00:13:15,516
Speaker 1: a far faster time scale than what have happened if

221
00:13:15,516 --> 00:13:17,996
Speaker 1: you're just doing everything with paper, and I think that's

222
00:13:17,996 --> 00:13:22,396
Speaker 1: something that is really underestimated. We'll be back in a moment.

223
00:13:31,596 --> 00:13:33,636
Speaker 1: I want to ask you about what you might call

224
00:13:33,676 --> 00:13:37,236
Speaker 1: the regulatory impulse. You could imagine a person who is

225
00:13:37,276 --> 00:13:41,676
Speaker 1: a good old fashioned, mainstream small l liberal, which I

226
00:13:41,756 --> 00:13:45,276
Speaker 1: sometimes am, who says, you know, these kinds of conspiracy theories.

227
00:13:45,276 --> 00:13:47,476
Speaker 1: We have to allow them to sundregate our society because

228
00:13:47,516 --> 00:13:50,516
Speaker 1: we believe in freedom of expression. On the other hand,

229
00:13:50,876 --> 00:13:53,436
Speaker 1: we don't have to promote their spread to the point

230
00:13:53,476 --> 00:13:57,316
Speaker 1: where they have a substantial, dangerous and even eventually violent

231
00:13:57,716 --> 00:14:02,236
Speaker 1: effect in the world. So the regulatory impulse says, thank you,

232
00:14:02,396 --> 00:14:05,356
Speaker 1: Adrian for your wonderful diagnosis. You've helped us see why

233
00:14:05,396 --> 00:14:08,516
Speaker 1: this works. Let's shut it down. Let's try to block

234
00:14:08,556 --> 00:14:12,156
Speaker 1: it's viral. Let's try to block groups where people are

235
00:14:12,156 --> 00:14:14,036
Speaker 1: discussing it. If the problem is that everyone is saying

236
00:14:14,036 --> 00:14:15,676
Speaker 1: it together, let's make it harder for them to do.

237
00:14:15,716 --> 00:14:18,636
Speaker 1: So where do you come down on the what I

238
00:14:18,636 --> 00:14:20,436
Speaker 1: would call the regulatory impulse, And I'm trying to be

239
00:14:20,556 --> 00:14:24,556
Speaker 1: neutral in describing that impulse. So Facebook and Twitter have

240
00:14:24,796 --> 00:14:30,036
Speaker 1: been making efforts to try and reduce how quickly qun

241
00:14:30,116 --> 00:14:31,836
Speaker 1: on can be amplified. So if you search for q

242
00:14:31,996 --> 00:14:35,036
Speaker 1: and on YouTube, it will come up a disclaimer. If

243
00:14:35,036 --> 00:14:37,636
Speaker 1: you search q and on accounts on Twitter, then you

244
00:14:37,716 --> 00:14:40,596
Speaker 1: can't find them. I think that's clearly going to help.

245
00:14:40,596 --> 00:14:44,436
Speaker 1: At the margin, I don't really think it does anything

246
00:14:44,476 --> 00:14:46,796
Speaker 1: for people who are already into Q on on and

247
00:14:46,956 --> 00:14:50,436
Speaker 1: to be honest, I think that we've already started seeing

248
00:14:51,156 --> 00:14:54,076
Speaker 1: these sorts of ideas spread in private message groups and

249
00:14:54,156 --> 00:15:01,596
Speaker 1: WhatsApp that are harder to control. I think that we

250
00:15:01,636 --> 00:15:04,716
Speaker 1: all need to have a discussion about what role we

251
00:15:04,836 --> 00:15:07,836
Speaker 1: want A small number of companies due to regulate speech.

252
00:15:08,116 --> 00:15:11,716
Speaker 1: Basically Facebook, Twitter, Google, and I should say just full

253
00:15:11,716 --> 00:15:14,476
Speaker 1: disclosure for listeners and for you that I have advised

254
00:15:14,516 --> 00:15:17,156
Speaker 1: Facebook on some of their speech related issues. So I

255
00:15:17,196 --> 00:15:19,436
Speaker 1: have a stake in this too, and I agree that

256
00:15:19,476 --> 00:15:21,276
Speaker 1: there ought to be a conversation. But I guess what

257
00:15:21,316 --> 00:15:23,276
Speaker 1: I'm asking you is, what would you like to contribute

258
00:15:23,276 --> 00:15:25,796
Speaker 1: to that conversation. I think there needs to be more

259
00:15:25,796 --> 00:15:29,156
Speaker 1: public regulation now exactly what that is. I think that

260
00:15:29,356 --> 00:15:33,716
Speaker 1: there should be a discussion in democracies about what kind

261
00:15:33,716 --> 00:15:38,196
Speaker 1: of speech we think is acceptable and how we should

262
00:15:38,916 --> 00:15:40,876
Speaker 1: promote it or not. You know, I think there are

263
00:15:40,956 --> 00:15:43,556
Speaker 1: things you can do at that technological level. At the

264
00:15:43,596 --> 00:15:46,436
Speaker 1: same time, this is a symptom. It's not the cause.

265
00:15:46,436 --> 00:15:49,796
Speaker 1: It didn't happen because of Facebook. You know, people believe

266
00:15:49,836 --> 00:15:52,356
Speaker 1: in things like q and on because they have completely

267
00:15:52,356 --> 00:15:57,036
Speaker 1: lost trust in government and authorities. And so while I

268
00:15:57,076 --> 00:15:59,636
Speaker 1: think that there is probably some level of public regulation

269
00:15:59,796 --> 00:16:04,716
Speaker 1: that should be introduced, I suspect that the only way

270
00:16:04,716 --> 00:16:07,956
Speaker 1: you really get around this is by trying to figure

271
00:16:07,956 --> 00:16:12,756
Speaker 1: out how you can restore trust, not necessarily in governments,

272
00:16:12,836 --> 00:16:15,196
Speaker 1: because I think the governments have demonstrated a lot of

273
00:16:15,236 --> 00:16:17,796
Speaker 1: comments recently have demonstrated that they aren't really to be

274
00:16:17,836 --> 00:16:21,156
Speaker 1: trusted in certain areas. But I think you need to

275
00:16:21,156 --> 00:16:25,716
Speaker 1: have trust in some institutions and some people, and the

276
00:16:25,756 --> 00:16:30,236
Speaker 1: way that they can establish trust is through great a

277
00:16:30,276 --> 00:16:32,916
Speaker 1: degree of transparency and great a degree of involving the

278
00:16:32,916 --> 00:16:37,476
Speaker 1: community in how they gather data and how they interpret data.

279
00:16:37,556 --> 00:16:40,316
Speaker 1: And when I say that to be really specific, you know,

280
00:16:40,356 --> 00:16:42,396
Speaker 1: I think there's some really good examples of this. One

281
00:16:42,956 --> 00:16:46,476
Speaker 1: is the COVID Tracking Project in the US, which is

282
00:16:46,596 --> 00:16:51,676
Speaker 1: trying to create one of the more comprehensive databases of

283
00:16:51,956 --> 00:16:55,316
Speaker 1: COVID cases and cover statistics in America. And they are

284
00:16:55,396 --> 00:17:01,116
Speaker 1: going to publicly available information. But importantly, you can go

285
00:17:01,956 --> 00:17:05,436
Speaker 1: and look at the entire chain of where they gather

286
00:17:05,476 --> 00:17:08,556
Speaker 1: the information, which websites, how they archived, at how they

287
00:17:08,596 --> 00:17:10,516
Speaker 1: process it. It's all open source. You can go into

288
00:17:10,556 --> 00:17:12,716
Speaker 1: the chat rooms and talk to the people. So if

289
00:17:12,716 --> 00:17:16,356
Speaker 1: you think that, oh no, this particular piece of information

290
00:17:16,796 --> 00:17:20,756
Speaker 1: collected from Florida is wrong, I think it's inflated. You

291
00:17:20,756 --> 00:17:24,796
Speaker 1: can see the footnotes about why it's there. Now are

292
00:17:25,116 --> 00:17:29,116
Speaker 1: people going to drill down that far? Most people aren't.

293
00:17:29,676 --> 00:17:33,756
Speaker 1: But I think that if you're able to quickly answer

294
00:17:33,836 --> 00:17:37,676
Speaker 1: questions about, oh, well, these covered figures completely fake, if

295
00:17:37,676 --> 00:17:39,676
Speaker 1: you can say no, they're not fake. Oh no, we

296
00:17:39,716 --> 00:17:41,956
Speaker 1: did make a mistake last week, but here's our response

297
00:17:41,956 --> 00:17:45,796
Speaker 1: to that. Rather than just stonewalling or saying, well, you're

298
00:17:45,836 --> 00:17:49,116
Speaker 1: my political opponent and I don't believe you, then you

299
00:17:49,156 --> 00:17:51,756
Speaker 1: can establish that trust. And I think that where this

300
00:17:51,876 --> 00:17:56,476
Speaker 1: wraps around alternate reality games is the process of collecting

301
00:17:56,476 --> 00:17:59,476
Speaker 1: that data and interpreting that data. It's not as fun

302
00:17:59,476 --> 00:18:02,756
Speaker 1: as playing an a arg but it resembles it because

303
00:18:02,756 --> 00:18:04,796
Speaker 1: it is a collective effort that cannot be done by

304
00:18:04,836 --> 00:18:07,076
Speaker 1: one person. It can't just be done by software. It

305
00:18:07,116 --> 00:18:10,436
Speaker 1: requires humans working together, and if you get the right people,

306
00:18:10,516 --> 00:18:14,716
Speaker 1: it can feel like a very fulfilling process. And that's

307
00:18:14,756 --> 00:18:17,916
Speaker 1: why I think that getting everyone involved in that project

308
00:18:18,636 --> 00:18:23,076
Speaker 1: is so important. Could you say more about whether there

309
00:18:23,076 --> 00:18:26,876
Speaker 1: are other productive things that alternate reality games can contribute here.

310
00:18:27,196 --> 00:18:28,756
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you, I'll sor put my cards in

311
00:18:28,796 --> 00:18:31,756
Speaker 1: the table. What the philosophical question behind it is. To me,

312
00:18:31,796 --> 00:18:35,676
Speaker 1: it seems like what's appealing about those games is that

313
00:18:35,756 --> 00:18:38,756
Speaker 1: you're interpreting the universe and you know that there was

314
00:18:38,796 --> 00:18:42,116
Speaker 1: a designer. So you may not get the answer, but

315
00:18:42,236 --> 00:18:43,716
Speaker 1: you can try to get the answer. And there is

316
00:18:43,756 --> 00:18:46,476
Speaker 1: an answer out there, which is how the world looks

317
00:18:46,476 --> 00:18:49,356
Speaker 1: to religious believers. And I would include in that some

318
00:18:49,876 --> 00:18:54,116
Speaker 1: very dogmatic religious believers in science, but it's not how

319
00:18:54,116 --> 00:18:55,996
Speaker 1: the world functions a lot of the time, on a

320
00:18:56,036 --> 00:18:58,196
Speaker 1: lot of the questions we care most about, there isn't

321
00:18:58,236 --> 00:19:01,516
Speaker 1: a design out there? Is there a way that playing

322
00:19:01,556 --> 00:19:05,596
Speaker 1: those games makes us believe or reinforces our belief that

323
00:19:05,636 --> 00:19:08,396
Speaker 1: there must be a design? And if so, is that

324
00:19:08,436 --> 00:19:10,116
Speaker 1: a good thing? I mean, if we believe that there

325
00:19:10,156 --> 00:19:12,196
Speaker 1: is a design, maybe we would be more inclined to

326
00:19:12,196 --> 00:19:14,316
Speaker 1: trust the authorities. Or is it the other way around

327
00:19:14,476 --> 00:19:17,676
Speaker 1: that the more we play games, the more we acclimate

328
00:19:17,716 --> 00:19:22,076
Speaker 1: ourselves to what is sometimes called, fancily the hermonutic of suspicion,

329
00:19:22,396 --> 00:19:24,516
Speaker 1: this idea that the way I see the world is

330
00:19:24,516 --> 00:19:28,036
Speaker 1: that I'm always suspicious of whatever data is presented to me.

331
00:19:28,876 --> 00:19:33,036
Speaker 1: Can playing algies need to more sort of conspiratorial thinking

332
00:19:33,236 --> 00:19:34,436
Speaker 1: or the other way By the way, I don't want

333
00:19:34,436 --> 00:19:37,476
Speaker 1: to pre judge it. They could, I wouldn't they able

334
00:19:37,516 --> 00:19:41,796
Speaker 1: to disprove that. I think that algies aren't really that

335
00:19:41,836 --> 00:19:44,716
Speaker 1: popular anymore, so I don't think there's that much of

336
00:19:44,716 --> 00:19:46,796
Speaker 1: a cause on link though it was quite difficult to

337
00:19:46,876 --> 00:19:49,916
Speaker 1: make money from them. Now I would put it a

338
00:19:49,916 --> 00:19:52,316
Speaker 1: different way. I think that when you play these games,

339
00:19:52,316 --> 00:19:54,676
Speaker 1: you can feel like you can solve anything, and that's

340
00:19:54,716 --> 00:19:57,236
Speaker 1: partly because the puzzles have been designed to be solved.

341
00:19:58,276 --> 00:20:01,196
Speaker 1: But I do think that they can train you. They're

342
00:20:01,236 --> 00:20:04,316
Speaker 1: like training wheels in the best case, for understanding how

343
00:20:04,356 --> 00:20:08,876
Speaker 1: to use certain types of tools, how to organize groups online,

344
00:20:09,436 --> 00:20:12,916
Speaker 1: how to share information and template information that actually can

345
00:20:12,956 --> 00:20:16,876
Speaker 1: be used for good. And I do think that they

346
00:20:16,876 --> 00:20:20,796
Speaker 1: are kind of kind of like hopeful games because they

347
00:20:20,836 --> 00:20:23,276
Speaker 1: do you only solve them by working together, and I

348
00:20:23,276 --> 00:20:27,116
Speaker 1: think that's kind of a really lovely thing. I wanted

349
00:20:27,156 --> 00:20:30,436
Speaker 1: to ask you just about the broader question of the

350
00:20:30,556 --> 00:20:35,356
Speaker 1: role of gaming in our society, particularly in this COVID era.

351
00:20:36,076 --> 00:20:38,996
Speaker 1: You know, until COVID began. I, like a lot of

352
00:20:39,156 --> 00:20:42,436
Speaker 1: parents of young kids, tried to limit the amount of

353
00:20:42,436 --> 00:20:45,116
Speaker 1: time my kids who were playing games. I thought it

354
00:20:45,156 --> 00:20:48,116
Speaker 1: was fine in some bound, but I didn't want it

355
00:20:48,156 --> 00:20:51,436
Speaker 1: to swallow up their lives. Suddenly they were at home,

356
00:20:51,476 --> 00:20:54,156
Speaker 1: they weren't able to see their friends because of social distancing.

357
00:20:54,196 --> 00:20:55,996
Speaker 1: The games were one way in which they could interact

358
00:20:56,036 --> 00:20:58,676
Speaker 1: with other human beings, and suddenly they seemed far superior

359
00:20:58,716 --> 00:21:01,556
Speaker 1: to any activity that was not interactive. And I don't

360
00:21:01,596 --> 00:21:04,196
Speaker 1: think I'm unique in having gone through this trajectory. Do

361
00:21:04,236 --> 00:21:07,196
Speaker 1: you have a sense of how the gaming community more broadly,

362
00:21:07,196 --> 00:21:10,556
Speaker 1: the industry in the community more broadly, are being affected

363
00:21:10,556 --> 00:21:13,876
Speaker 1: by or thinking about this strange historical moment that we're in.

364
00:21:14,276 --> 00:21:17,436
Speaker 1: I mean, games are booming. It's one of the few

365
00:21:17,476 --> 00:21:20,116
Speaker 1: areas that's doing well in the economy, along with just

366
00:21:20,236 --> 00:21:24,796
Speaker 1: TV and streaming. There is a massive amount of people

367
00:21:24,796 --> 00:21:27,396
Speaker 1: playing games now. We can see that in the stats

368
00:21:27,436 --> 00:21:31,676
Speaker 1: of simultaneous players of big games. Consoles at the switch

369
00:21:31,756 --> 00:21:35,836
Speaker 1: are just selling out. Exercise games, interestingly in Japan are

370
00:21:35,836 --> 00:21:38,916
Speaker 1: selling out extremely quickly. You know, people are saying that

371
00:21:38,996 --> 00:21:44,196
Speaker 1: games are very good way of socializing. That is not

372
00:21:44,276 --> 00:21:48,356
Speaker 1: just having endless zoom calls basically. You know. The other

373
00:21:48,396 --> 00:21:53,076
Speaker 1: interesting thing about games, I would say is that unlike

374
00:21:53,116 --> 00:21:56,236
Speaker 1: TV shows, which can be consumed in a lockdown but

375
00:21:56,316 --> 00:21:59,356
Speaker 1: can't really be created and lockdown as effectively, games can

376
00:21:59,396 --> 00:22:03,036
Speaker 1: be created and consumed very well in a lockdown. A

377
00:22:03,076 --> 00:22:06,076
Speaker 1: lot of games companies are pretty well suited to working

378
00:22:06,116 --> 00:22:08,956
Speaker 1: remotely because it's all just on our computers. You don't

379
00:22:09,196 --> 00:22:12,796
Speaker 1: have actors or all things of that. And so the

380
00:22:12,876 --> 00:22:16,596
Speaker 1: great of production has not really slowed down for games.

381
00:22:16,916 --> 00:22:19,516
Speaker 1: And so while everyone's watching TV, there are a a lot

382
00:22:19,516 --> 00:22:21,436
Speaker 1: of new TV shows coming out, but there are a

383
00:22:21,476 --> 00:22:24,236
Speaker 1: lot of games coming out, and that's really a now

384
00:22:24,316 --> 00:22:30,756
Speaker 1: the industry to thrive in this strange moment. Do you, yourself,

385
00:22:30,796 --> 00:22:33,036
Speaker 1: in your own life, or when you're advising people whom

386
00:22:33,076 --> 00:22:37,116
Speaker 1: you know, have some ideas about proper ratio of human

387
00:22:37,196 --> 00:22:40,436
Speaker 1: time that should be spent on And I'm including interactive

388
00:22:40,476 --> 00:22:42,916
Speaker 1: games here, I mean obviously in a lockdown, when one

389
00:22:42,956 --> 00:22:46,676
Speaker 1: doesn't have the option of in person socializing, it may

390
00:22:46,716 --> 00:22:48,756
Speaker 1: be better to socialize through a game than not to

391
00:22:48,836 --> 00:22:50,676
Speaker 1: socialize at all. In fact, I tend to think that

392
00:22:50,676 --> 00:22:54,276
Speaker 1: that's the case. But when an af we return to

393
00:22:54,356 --> 00:22:57,636
Speaker 1: some capacity for social interaction. Do you have a general

394
00:22:57,756 --> 00:23:01,196
Speaker 1: view on whether it's a bad thing. As a proportion

395
00:23:01,236 --> 00:23:03,916
Speaker 1: of all their social interactions, the percentage that are happening

396
00:23:04,276 --> 00:23:08,076
Speaker 1: mediated via games are high versus slow. You know, I

397
00:23:08,476 --> 00:23:11,036
Speaker 1: think this is a really hard question to get right,

398
00:23:11,076 --> 00:23:13,356
Speaker 1: because it really depends on what time window you're looking at.

399
00:23:13,436 --> 00:23:15,436
Speaker 1: I think there's a temptation to go and say, well,

400
00:23:15,436 --> 00:23:17,236
Speaker 1: you should spend two hours a day or one hour

401
00:23:17,236 --> 00:23:19,236
Speaker 1: a day, or have a many hours of screen time

402
00:23:19,276 --> 00:23:22,316
Speaker 1: a day or week or a month. I had one

403
00:23:22,356 --> 00:23:24,876
Speaker 1: summer where I feel like I just played Civilization Too

404
00:23:24,916 --> 00:23:26,756
Speaker 1: for about a three months straight and I didn't really

405
00:23:26,756 --> 00:23:29,236
Speaker 1: do anything else. And then I had times where I

406
00:23:29,276 --> 00:23:30,956
Speaker 1: don't play any games at all and I just spend

407
00:23:30,956 --> 00:23:33,836
Speaker 1: all my time going out. I think it is okay

408
00:23:33,956 --> 00:23:37,276
Speaker 1: to go through these phases and recognize them as phases

409
00:23:37,356 --> 00:23:40,836
Speaker 1: rather than things that last for years. There are ways

410
00:23:40,876 --> 00:23:45,836
Speaker 1: to combine playing online games with social interaction. I mean,

411
00:23:45,876 --> 00:23:48,236
Speaker 1: you can go to conventions in some ways. Maybe the

412
00:23:48,276 --> 00:23:50,116
Speaker 1: answer is to kind of push through. If you've got

413
00:23:50,156 --> 00:23:55,116
Speaker 1: someone who is incredibly into World of Warcraft or the

414
00:23:55,196 --> 00:23:58,476
Speaker 1: League of Legends or Fortnight, you know, you can indulge

415
00:23:58,516 --> 00:24:00,276
Speaker 1: that to some extent, and you can say, hey, how

416
00:24:00,316 --> 00:24:01,956
Speaker 1: about we go and meet some Fortnite players in the

417
00:24:01,996 --> 00:24:04,676
Speaker 1: real world, and that is a social direction and people

418
00:24:04,716 --> 00:24:07,556
Speaker 1: can make really good friends there. And so I think

419
00:24:07,556 --> 00:24:13,156
Speaker 1: it's rather than saying, well, the game is wrong, it's

420
00:24:13,236 --> 00:24:15,356
Speaker 1: more the way in which you experience the game is

421
00:24:15,356 --> 00:24:19,676
Speaker 1: wrong or not wrong, but perhaps excessive. But the people

422
00:24:19,796 --> 00:24:23,396
Speaker 1: are still people, and you can meet the people through

423
00:24:23,436 --> 00:24:25,276
Speaker 1: the game, but you can also meet the people in

424
00:24:25,316 --> 00:24:28,796
Speaker 1: real life, and I think that's something that is we

425
00:24:28,836 --> 00:24:31,556
Speaker 1: should all be reminded of. Do you think when our

426
00:24:31,676 --> 00:24:36,796
Speaker 1: various social distancings that are over, that increased game playing

427
00:24:37,196 --> 00:24:40,476
Speaker 1: will continue as a trend or will it decline slightly

428
00:24:40,596 --> 00:24:42,236
Speaker 1: or do you think it would return to its pre

429
00:24:42,356 --> 00:24:49,636
Speaker 1: COVID levels. I think it will decline slightly. But we're

430
00:24:49,636 --> 00:24:52,436
Speaker 1: at an interesting point in gaming right now, with the

431
00:24:52,436 --> 00:24:54,956
Speaker 1: release of a whole bunch of new consoles and technologies

432
00:24:54,956 --> 00:24:57,076
Speaker 1: which are probably going to be quite attractive to people,

433
00:24:57,556 --> 00:24:59,556
Speaker 1: and there's a lot more investment going on to games.

434
00:24:59,596 --> 00:25:02,676
Speaker 1: They're just going to get better and more interesting. And

435
00:25:03,196 --> 00:25:05,396
Speaker 1: I know that everyone always sorts about the futual reality

436
00:25:05,476 --> 00:25:08,876
Speaker 1: is coming next year, but it is coming, and it's

437
00:25:08,876 --> 00:25:13,036
Speaker 1: get very good, and I think that there's already been

438
00:25:13,076 --> 00:25:16,916
Speaker 1: a huge run of sales on the reality headsets. It

439
00:25:17,036 --> 00:25:21,116
Speaker 1: wasn't quite there for this pandemic, but God help us

440
00:25:21,116 --> 00:25:23,116
Speaker 1: if we have another pandemic of five years. But if

441
00:25:23,156 --> 00:25:25,956
Speaker 1: we do have another pandemic of five years, VR is

442
00:25:25,996 --> 00:25:28,156
Speaker 1: probably going to be the place where a lot of

443
00:25:28,156 --> 00:25:32,236
Speaker 1: people are spending their time. And while maybe it'd be

444
00:25:32,236 --> 00:25:34,756
Speaker 1: better to meet people in the real world, VR is

445
00:25:34,756 --> 00:25:38,356
Speaker 1: probably second best, even before games. Adrian, I want to

446
00:25:38,396 --> 00:25:40,556
Speaker 1: thank you for your time and for your really really

447
00:25:40,716 --> 00:25:43,876
Speaker 1: unusual and insightful angle on this hard question. It's a

448
00:25:43,876 --> 00:25:46,756
Speaker 1: great pleasure to hear your fascinating views. Thanks so much.

449
00:25:53,156 --> 00:25:57,596
Speaker 1: Adrian Han's very thoughtful perspective is a reminder that although

450
00:25:57,636 --> 00:26:03,076
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories are resolved as human consciousness, they evolve and

451
00:26:03,156 --> 00:26:08,036
Speaker 1: develop in the light of cultural understandings and changing technology.

452
00:26:09,196 --> 00:26:11,996
Speaker 1: Site into the way that alternate reality games and QAnon

453
00:26:12,116 --> 00:26:14,756
Speaker 1: have something in common is valuable to me because it

454
00:26:14,796 --> 00:26:18,076
Speaker 1: opens up our thinking about both topics. It opens up

455
00:26:18,076 --> 00:26:20,876
Speaker 1: our thinking about what a conspiracy theory is and how

456
00:26:20,916 --> 00:26:24,236
Speaker 1: conspiracy theorists are trying to understand, interpret and make sense

457
00:26:24,276 --> 00:26:27,196
Speaker 1: of the world. And it also opens our perspective into

458
00:26:27,236 --> 00:26:30,636
Speaker 1: how certain kinds of games, like alternate reality games, can

459
00:26:30,716 --> 00:26:37,076
Speaker 1: generate meaningful community and an experience of investigation, thought and analysis.

460
00:26:38,116 --> 00:26:41,396
Speaker 1: Beyond that, Adrian really got me thinking about the social

461
00:26:41,396 --> 00:26:45,036
Speaker 1: experience of gaming more generally. Of course, he doesn't think

462
00:26:45,076 --> 00:26:47,396
Speaker 1: that we should spend all of our time online, but

463
00:26:47,476 --> 00:26:51,316
Speaker 1: he does take and advance the view that social engagement

464
00:26:51,436 --> 00:26:55,516
Speaker 1: through games can be a meaningful form of interaction, especially

465
00:26:55,556 --> 00:26:58,156
Speaker 1: when we're cut off from other forms of social interaction

466
00:26:58,596 --> 00:27:03,116
Speaker 1: by COVID. Understanding a complex phenomenon like QAnon is not

467
00:27:03,156 --> 00:27:05,676
Speaker 1: a simple thing. To really understand it, we would need

468
00:27:05,676 --> 00:27:11,836
Speaker 1: to understand psychology, sociology, history, technology, and a wide range

469
00:27:11,916 --> 00:27:17,516
Speaker 1: of other specialties, probably even neuroscience and religion. But trying

470
00:27:17,556 --> 00:27:19,916
Speaker 1: to get one view of one part of the elephant

471
00:27:20,076 --> 00:27:22,276
Speaker 1: is a valuable way to try to make sense of

472
00:27:22,316 --> 00:27:25,796
Speaker 1: this phenomenon, one that, for better or for worse, probably

473
00:27:25,836 --> 00:27:28,396
Speaker 1: for worse, is going to have a meaningful effect on

474
00:27:28,476 --> 00:27:32,196
Speaker 1: our political lives. Until the next time I speak to you,

475
00:27:32,676 --> 00:27:37,516
Speaker 1: be careful, be safe, and be well. Deep background is

476
00:27:37,516 --> 00:27:40,556
Speaker 1: brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia

477
00:27:40,636 --> 00:27:44,196
Speaker 1: Jane Cott, our engineer is Martin Gonzalez and our showrunner

478
00:27:44,276 --> 00:27:48,276
Speaker 1: is Sophie mckibbon. Theme music by Luis Gara. Special thanks

479
00:27:48,276 --> 00:27:51,956
Speaker 1: to the Pushkin Brass, Malcolm Clodwell, Jacob Weisberg, and Mia Lobel.

480
00:27:52,756 --> 00:27:55,676
Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. You can find me on Twitter at

481
00:27:55,756 --> 00:27:58,476
Speaker 1: Noah R. Feld I also have a new book out

482
00:27:58,556 --> 00:28:01,836
Speaker 1: called The Arab Winter, A Tragedy. I'd be delighted if

483
00:28:01,836 --> 00:28:04,716
Speaker 1: you checked it out. I read a column from Bloomberg Opinion,

484
00:28:04,836 --> 00:28:08,036
Speaker 1: which you can find at Bloomberg dot com slash Feldman.

485
00:28:08,516 --> 00:28:12,036
Speaker 1: To discover Bloomberg's original state of podcasts, go to Bloomberg

486
00:28:12,076 --> 00:28:15,196
Speaker 1: dot com slash podcasts and if you like what you

487
00:28:15,316 --> 00:28:17,996
Speaker 1: heard today, please write a review or tell a friend.

488
00:28:18,516 --> 00:28:19,996
Speaker 1: This is deep background