1 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 2 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: Jody Canter and Megan Towey are the New York Times 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 1: reporters who broke the Harvey Weinstein story for five months, 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: perpetually in danger of losing the scoop, they cultivated and 5 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: cajoled sources ranging from the Weinstein's accountant to Ashley Judd. 6 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: The article that emerged on October fifth, twenty seventeen, was 7 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 1: a level headed and impeccably sourced expose whose effects continue 8 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: to be felt around the world. Canter and Tuhey documented 9 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: twenty five years of sexual abuse, harassment, and exploitation by 10 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: one of the most important producers in the history of Hollywood. 11 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: The story put a definitive end to his career and 12 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: his company. It has also shaken the lives of some 13 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: of those who supported and defended him, like lawyer Lisa Bloom, 14 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: who until last year had followed the path of her 15 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: feminist mother, Gloria Allread in representing victims. And just as clearly, 16 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: the reporters documented the loose network of business and creative 17 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: interests that enabled rape, harassment, and casting couch coercion. They 18 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: revealed to America the culture in Hollywood that knew about 19 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: all of this and disapproved but expected individual women victimized 20 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 1: and isolated to bear the burden of exposing the powerful 21 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: men who humiliated them themselves. But before any of the fallout, 22 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: Jodi Canter and Megan Tooey had to source up. 23 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 2: One of the first daunting tasks was to try to 24 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 2: get in touch with these famous actresses. But Megan and 25 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 2: I were like, we don't know any actresses, you know, 26 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 2: and getting We're sitting there saying, okay, how do you 27 00:01:57,840 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 2: get you know? Ashley Judd's phone. 28 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: Was the path to Ashley Judge you you can you 29 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: talk about that? Well? 30 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 2: That one was pretty easy because Nick Christoph knew her 31 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 2: and NIW Christoph the opinion columnist at the Times. But 32 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 2: we felt strongly that we could not go through publicists 33 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 2: or agents because they're gatekeepers. They're just going to shut 34 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 2: everything down. We wanted to reach the actresses directly, and 35 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 2: so the questions were, you know, how do you reach 36 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 2: these people? And even if you get them on the phone, 37 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:24,959 Speaker 2: what are you going to say in the first forty 38 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 2: five seconds of that phone conversation to earn some trust 39 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 2: and keep the conversation going. So actually that's sort of 40 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 2: the origin of my partnership with Megan, because Megan was 41 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 2: on maternity leave, but she had been a sex crimes 42 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 2: reporter for a long time and she had done the 43 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 2: reporting where on Donald Trump and women for The Times. 44 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 3: I worked at the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, I worked at 45 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 3: the Chicago Tridren and I've been at The Times a 46 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 3: year and a half. I came into The Times in 47 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 3: twenty sixteen to join the team that was doing coverage 48 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 3: of the twenty sixteen presidential race. So I had done 49 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 3: these stories about Trump and his treatment of women, and 50 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 3: after he was at had been part of the coverage 51 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 3: of his when we were first looking at the ties 52 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 3: between him and Russia. So I had been doing that 53 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 3: work up until the March of twenty seventeen, when I 54 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 3: had a baby and went on maternity leave. And so 55 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 3: it was while I was on maternity leave that Jody 56 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 3: started the Weinsteine investigation and sort of called me. We 57 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 3: didn't even know each other, and she called me and said, 58 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 3: I know you've done stories in the past about victims 59 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 3: of sex crimes, and I know you did reporting with 60 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 3: some of the women who accused Trump of sexual misconduct. 61 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 3: Do you have any suggestions of what to say when 62 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 3: you're knocking on these doors and picking up the phone 63 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 3: and calling people into asking them to open up about 64 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 3: these painful experiences in their past. 65 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 2: So when Megan and I were on the phone, she 66 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 2: suggested a kind of argument that she had used with 67 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 2: victims in the past, which is to say to them 68 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 2: very early in the conversation, look, I can't change what's 69 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 2: happened to you in the past, but if we work together, 70 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 2: maybe we can take the pain that you experienced and 71 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 2: put it to some constructive purpose will help other people. 72 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 2: And when Megan said that, it was like something clicked 73 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: for me because it's the best reason to talk to 74 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 2: a journalist. And also, so many people fear that talking 75 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 2: to a journalist is a bad thing, like oh, it's traitorous, 76 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 2: or you're a tattle tale, or you're complaining or whatever. 77 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 2: And what we like to do is redefine it as 78 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 2: a more noble thing. You are doing this to have 79 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 2: a constructive impact on society. It is may be very difficult, 80 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 2: but our goal is to do something that you can 81 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 2: eventually feel very proud of. And so that was really 82 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 2: that was really the beginning of our beginning of our partnership. 83 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: In your book, you write about Lisa Bloom, this is 84 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: all Red's daughter. I'm wondering someone like that. What does 85 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: she think she's doing. Does she go to bed every 86 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: night and sit there and go, aha, we're pulling a 87 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: fast one and everyone as I'm doing all this work 88 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: for Harvey? Well, does she think she's doing something else? 89 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: What does she tell herself? Do you think? 90 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 3: I mean, maybe there will be a day where Lisa 91 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 3: Bloom comes into a studio and sits down and opens 92 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 3: up her heart art and tells us what she's been 93 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 3: thinking and feeling and why and why it was. I mean, 94 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 3: what we can tell you is that she did something 95 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 3: remarkable in twenty sixteen. She has been one of the 96 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 3: most prominent feminist attorneys in the country, worked with countless 97 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 3: victims of sexual harassment and sexual assault, and in twenty 98 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 3: sixteen crossed over to the other side. Why do you 99 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 3: think she has said that she thought that he only 100 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 3: engaged in inappropriate comments towards women, and that she wanted 101 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 3: to help him, go work with him to help him apologize. 102 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,039 Speaker 3: You know, we obtained in the course of the reporting 103 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 3: for this book, these confidential records that showed she had 104 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 3: much deeper knowledge of the serious allegations against him, and 105 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 3: that she played a much darker role. I mean, she 106 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 3: was not honest about the work she did for him. 107 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 3: We've got the billing records, the memo in which she 108 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 3: spells out all the underhanded tactics she's going to use 109 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 3: to help him undermine his accusers, and she's basically saying, 110 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 3: I'm going to use all my experience working with victims 111 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 3: and harness that and use it with you to work 112 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 3: against them. And so was it about money? I mean, 113 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 3: what we know for sure is that she had done 114 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 3: a deal with Weinstein. She wanted she had a book 115 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 3: that he was going to turn into a movie about 116 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 3: Trayvon Martin. But beyond that, I mean, we don't we 117 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 3: She has not opened up. And when we when we 118 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 3: sought comment from her for this book, I mean, we 119 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 3: wouldn't publish, you know, we published that memo that she 120 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 3: wrote to him spelling out exactly what she was going 121 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 3: to do for him, which really contradicts her public comments 122 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 3: about what the role that she played and why she 123 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 3: went to go work for him in its entirety, so 124 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 3: that readers could see for themselves what she was saying 125 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 3: in her own words and doing at the time. But 126 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 3: when we presented her with that, she she refused to comment. 127 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 3: She said that, you know, she that she was going 128 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 3: to abide by attorney client privilege as you know, into 129 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 3: the future journey. 130 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 2: Look, I think you're asking the right question, which is 131 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 2: you've got one of the most famous feminist attorneys in 132 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: the country. She's Gloria Alred's daughter. She's been advertising herself 133 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 2: as a victim's writes attorney and a fighter for women 134 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 2: for all of these years, and she makes what we 135 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 2: know is a very intentional decision to cross the line 136 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 2: and work for Harvey Weinstein. And we know it's intentional 137 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 2: because of the memo that Megan just described. This is 138 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 2: her job audition memo, and in it she's saying, I 139 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 2: will smear on your behalf, I will manipulate on your behalf. 140 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 2: So the question is what led her over? You know what? 141 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 2: Did she genuinely not believe the women she represented over 142 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 2: the years? 143 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: Was she. 144 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: Did she think that Rose McGowan was just making it 145 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 2: all up? Et cetera, et cetera. So we can't look, 146 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 2: you know, she's not here. We don't have a crystal ball, 147 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. But here's what we can tell you, 148 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 2: because this also applies to David Boys, the other super lawyer, 149 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 2: the Renewal, the renowned litigator who did Bush v. Gore 150 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 2: and helped get gay marriage established. Here's the common denominator 151 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 2: that Bloom and Boys have in going to work for Weinstein. 152 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 2: They both wanted to be in the movie business. I know, Bloom, 153 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 2: so blooms, but Bloom. 154 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: We're called because it's not what it's cracked up to be. 155 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 2: Well, Bloom writes this book called Suspicion Nation about Trayvon 156 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 2: Martin and gets very excited because Harvey Weinstein and Jay 157 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 2: Z option it to turn it into a film. Boys, 158 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 2: for all of his vast, fast, fast legal success, what 159 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 2: does he really want to do, at least in part, 160 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 2: is be in the movies. He's got interests in the 161 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:38,839 Speaker 2: movie business. His daughter was an budding actress and wanted roles. 162 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 2: And we even obtained an email in which you've got 163 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 2: Harvey sort of setting her up for a part in 164 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 2: one of his films. And so, I mean, I think 165 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 2: so much of this story, and this was part of 166 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 2: my original draw to It is about, like, what is 167 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 2: the power that these movies have on all of us? Right? 168 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 2: Because it because that's the way Weinstein got everybody to 169 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 2: do what he wanted. That was the source of his power, 170 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 2: not just in luring people like boys in Bloom. 171 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 1: You're going to pull him into my magnetic view. 172 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 2: Exactly, but also with the women, right, I mean, this 173 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 2: was all about work. Look, it's really important to remember 174 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 2: that there are two categories of women essentially that Weinstein 175 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 2: allegedly harasses and assaults. One of them actresses. The second 176 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 2: assistance women who want to be producers, right, women who 177 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 2: are twenty three years old, and they're so excited because 178 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 2: they're on there. 179 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,119 Speaker 1: At the bottom of a ladder, very first. 180 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 2: Day at a company like Mirror Max or the Weinstein Company. 181 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 2: This is going to be their big shot. It's so exciting, 182 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 2: there's so much potential here. And then boom, Harvey Weinstein 183 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 2: walks into the room and everything changes. And so this 184 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,559 Speaker 2: is all about the actresses and the assistants. 185 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: Both. 186 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:56,079 Speaker 2: They're coming into this with with dreams, with ideas, with ambitions, 187 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 2: with hopes, and he turns those hopes and ambitions against 188 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 2: the women. And that has to do also with the 189 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 2: power of the movie. Is the power of this work? 190 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,079 Speaker 2: You know, what is your ticket into this world? And 191 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 2: how can that? You know, is your desire for entry 192 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 2: into this world a kind of vulnerability that can then 193 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 2: be turned against you? 194 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 1: You could? 195 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 4: You don't? 196 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I hope I phrased this the right way, 197 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: which is that I want to believe. I'm assuming in 198 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: your work you on earthed some things about Weinstein that 199 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: were compelling, seductive, like when people were around him, there 200 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: had to be something about him that facilitated the whole 201 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: event that would happen with some of these people. He 202 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: was a towering figure of accomplishment in the movie business. 203 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: He was a savant who knew everything there is to 204 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 1: know about every aspect on the deepest level of movie making, 205 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: movie production, movie development, movie distribution. There are very few 206 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: people There are almost none. The only equal Weinstein has 207 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: is Spielberg in terms of knowing everything there is to 208 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: know about developing, casting sets, everything and most importantble selling 209 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: that movie and marketing that movie, and that awards matrix 210 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: that he dominated for so long. People thought Weinstein was 211 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: a genius. 212 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 3: Well, we certainly witnessed Weinstein in action. We interviewed him 213 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 3: several times he came into The New York Times for 214 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 3: sit down interviews strike you, and he was. I think 215 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 3: that we were able to see in person that this 216 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 3: sort of range of this this sort of the spectrum 217 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 3: of his behavior that he would swing from kind of 218 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 3: charm and compliments and kind of ingratiating himself and like, well, 219 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 3: the New York Times, it's the best paper in the world, 220 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 3: and you know, let me tell you a story about it. 221 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 3: What a huge fan I am of the New York Times. 222 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 3: In terms of how he was able to pray on women, 223 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 3: I think that that is a separate question from how 224 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 3: he was able to sort of keep people in his 225 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 3: orbit and maintain his power. That really is one of 226 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 3: the most important questions is that they're were actually people 227 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 3: who got glimpses of his alleged misconduct over the years, 228 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 3: and what did they do about it? And how can 229 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 3: we explain the fact that there were so many individuals 230 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 3: and institutions, including his own companies, that became complicit in 231 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 3: his abuse. And what we were able to see is 232 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 3: that he kind of employed a variety of personality traits 233 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 3: from you know, sort of charm machine to threatening to 234 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 3: lashing out to manipulation, to bullying, and he seemed to 235 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 3: kind of pull these out of his pocket at various 236 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 3: times to try to get what he had wanted. And 237 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 3: I think that that he had been able to use 238 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 3: that we in our book were able to report out 239 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 3: this remarkable two years in his own company in twenty fourteen. 240 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 3: In twenty fifteen, when there were more and more allegations 241 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 3: coming to the surface that you know, people high up 242 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 3: in the company, including his own brother Bob Weinstein, saw 243 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:56,959 Speaker 3: he was among the people who wanted to do something 244 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 3: and wanted to intervene, and Weinstein was really to use 245 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 3: a variety of tactics to ultimately shut down these efforts 246 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 3: of accountability. 247 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: Reporters Jodi Kanter and Megan Tuwhey Me Too is the 248 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: most prominent of several hashtags that helped start a movement 249 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 1: in the real world. Another was no Ban, No Wall, 250 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: inspired by President Trump's Muslim ban. My guest, Becca Heller 251 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: is the activist who organized help for travelers in the crosshairs. 252 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 5: And I was like, holy shit, this ban comes down. 253 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 5: Whenever that is, there's going to be thousands of people 254 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 5: who are in the air who had legal permission to 255 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 5: enter the US when they took off and are going 256 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 5: to land essentially as undocumented, and nobody knows what's going 257 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 5: to happen to them. So we emailed our network and 258 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,079 Speaker 5: organized lawyers to go to every international air property lawyers. 259 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 5: We organized sixteen hundred and then I don't know how many, 260 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 5: and ultimately ended up being I mean thousand thousands. 261 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: Multiple folks. 262 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 5: Yeah. 263 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: My full interview with Becca Heller is in our archive 264 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: a Here's the Thing dot Org. I'm Alec Baldwin back 265 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: now with reporters Jodi Kanter and Megan Twey. 266 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 2: I've never really worked with anyone who has had this 267 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 2: strong and internal compass, and I think that compass has 268 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: just like pulled us forward again and again and again. 269 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 2: I think also that Megan is very exacting. God is 270 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 2: in the details. I get that, you know, God is 271 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 2: in the details on these stories, and I you know, 272 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 2: I hope our sources feel the same way I do, 273 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 2: which is that like when I'm in Meghan's hands, I 274 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 2: just feel like I'm working with a like a world 275 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 2: class surgeon or something, because the level of precision is 276 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 2: so incredibly high. I feel Megan's incredible compassion and empathy 277 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 2: for victims, but like kind of wrapped in this rigor 278 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 2: that only makes it better because it's not It's not 279 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 2: about sitting around and crying, you know, that's the role 280 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 2: of a psychologist or a friend. It's about having the 281 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 2: strength and the force to make the story really, really 282 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 2: work and make people feel safe through the power and 283 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 2: the strength of the journalism. And then I think the 284 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 2: final thing I would say is that I see a 285 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 2: relentlessness and an understanding of the psychology of how to 286 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 2: get people to give you information. 287 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: When this is for Megan, when Jodi Canter comes out 288 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: of the bullpen and she's head into the mound, what 289 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: are her? What is the better afraid of? What pitches 290 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: does she have in her repertoire? 291 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 3: I would say, I think that there's one word that 292 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 3: comes to mind when I think of Jody, which is persistence, 293 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 3: like you know, heaven, Like I sort of pity the 294 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 3: person who's trying to get between you know, Jody and 295 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 3: the information that she's pursuing, and she is just she's 296 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 3: just a total bulldog. And it's no surprise that you know, 297 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 3: there was there was a there was sort of a 298 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 3: deep throat figure in the Weinstein investigation. Irwin Ryder was 299 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 3: in the top orbit of executives by Weinstein's side for 300 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 3: years and ended up actually, over the course of a 301 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 3: series of secretive meetings with Jody Canter, ended up providing 302 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 3: all this information about the harm that Weinstein was doing 303 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 3: to women in the company. And ultimately why, well, I 304 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 3: think because he was he was in the hands of 305 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 3: Jody Canter. 306 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 2: No, no, no, that's not true. No he didn't because. 307 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 3: No, excuse me, I'm sorry, No, I will, I will, 308 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 3: I will correct that this was somebody who had seen wrongdoing, 309 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 3: had become increasingly concerned about it, had tried to do 310 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 3: things to hold the boss accountable to no avail. And 311 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 3: so when Jody came knocking, was I think inclined to 312 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 3: do something, but the extent to which I mean Jody 313 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 3: from the first email she sent to him, through the 314 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 3: meetings that she had with him in secret in Tribeca, 315 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 3: she was able to ultimately get him to not only 316 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 3: start to tell her about what was going on within 317 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 3: the company, but ultimately provide her with an internal record, 318 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 3: a complaint that had been filed as recently as twenty 319 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 3: fifteen that spelled out all these extensive allegations of sexual 320 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 3: harassment and abuse in the company, and it really is 321 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 3: just one of the many ways in which her persistence 322 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 3: has paid off time and time again. 323 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: Jody, how'd you get him to do it? 324 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 2: I'll tell you the story, Irwin was it at first 325 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 2: very nervous. He grew a little more comfortable. You know. 326 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 2: We were meeting late at night in September of twenty 327 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 2: seventeen at the restaurant Little Park in Tribecca. I was like, 328 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 2: why does he want to meet in the middle of 329 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 2: Tribeca in a fancy restaurant, But that was spot we 330 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 2: always met in the same place. And he was telling 331 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 2: me a lot. But this is what sources do, right, 332 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 2: the very few of them sort of like tell the 333 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 2: story in order and will know exactly what's relevant and 334 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 2: what's not relevant. So he's telling us all this different stuff, 335 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 2: and every few nights I'm meeting with him, I'm taking 336 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 2: everything back to Megan, and we're by day we're trying 337 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 2: to track it down, nail it down, and I mean 338 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 2: a lot of it is checking out. And there was 339 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 2: this memo that he had mentioned a few times, but 340 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 2: I didn't know how significant it was. And he had 341 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 2: read me a few lines from the memo, and we 342 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 2: just thought that there might be more there. So I'm 343 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 2: sitting there and we're having our glasses of wine, and 344 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 2: I said to him, will you pull up that memo 345 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 2: on your phone again? So he pulls it up on 346 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 2: his phone, and I really, I think I just wanted 347 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 2: to like maybe get a couple of words right or something. 348 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 2: And he looks at me and he says, I'm going 349 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 2: to go to the little boys room now, and he 350 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 2: hands me his phone. So it's like he's telling me 351 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 2: without explicitly telling me, take this document now. You never 352 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 2: want to forward it to yourself, right, because that's going 353 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 2: to leave a digital trail from his email address to mine. 354 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 2: So instead, I'm, you know, like sitting there at the bar, 355 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 2: you know, when you have these moments in life, when 356 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 2: you're stating to your phone, don't have a technical problem, 357 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 2: like please, I just need my phone to work for 358 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 2: like the next ten minutes. Yeah, exactly. So, So his 359 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 2: phone is in my lap and I'm holding my phone 360 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 2: over my lap, and I'm careful to scroll so I 361 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 2: don't like miss any lines, and I'm screenshotting every page 362 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 2: of this memo, but I still don't know what's in 363 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 2: it because I have to work really fast because I'm 364 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 2: trying to, like, you know, be all smooth. So anyway, 365 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 2: he comes back from the bathroom a minute later and 366 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 2: his phone is sitting and waiting for him on his chair, 367 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 2: and you know, we go through the rest of our 368 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:58,479 Speaker 2: drink state. But the second he leaves, we say goodbye, 369 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 2: and he's like, I'll walk you out, and I'm like, now, 370 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 2: you know what, I'm going to go to the lady's room. 371 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 2: So I go to the lady's room and that's when 372 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 2: I send the memo to Megan and Rebecca, and then 373 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 2: I walk outside in a hail cab and that's when 374 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 2: I actually read the mamo. And the woman who wrote it, 375 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 2: Lauren O'Connor, on top of being a very talented junior executive, 376 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 2: she's a powerful writer. And so that memo said things 377 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 2: like the balance of power at this company is Harvey 378 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 2: Weinstein ten me zero. So it's sort of like we've 379 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 2: been piecing together these allegations from you know, twenty five 380 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 2: or thirty year time period. And remember the earliest allegation, 381 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 2: the earliest settlement we've documented that Weinstein has paid is 382 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety. Think about how early that is nineteen ninety. 383 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 2: Lauren O'Connor. She's writing this memo in twenty fifteen, and 384 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 2: yet it's describing some of the same things the women 385 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 2: had experienced in nineteen ninety in the late nineties, like, 386 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 2: for example, she's describing an incident at the Peninsula in 387 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 2: Beverly Hills. Well Ashley Judd and Gwyneth Paltrow have told 388 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 2: us about being sexually harassed at the Peninsula in Beverly 389 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 2: Hills by Weinstein, but their stories take place in the 390 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 2: mid to late nineties. So it's like this sense of 391 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 2: how long has this guy been doing this and we've 392 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 2: got to publish this story because nobody else has stopped him. 393 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 1: We're taking a break. 394 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 4: Stay with us, both of you. 395 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: If I'm not mistaken. You both have a daughter. 396 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 3: Jody has two, I have one. 397 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 1: You have one daughter. You have two daughters, and I 398 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 1: have an older daughter Io was twenty three, and I 399 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 1: have a younger daughter who's six. And my wife and 400 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 1: I from time to time think about what kind of 401 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 1: a world will they interact with in the future. 402 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 2: We think about that question every day. And the founding 403 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 2: thing is that everything's changed and nothing's changed, and I 404 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 2: still don't have the answer changed. The laws, the structures, 405 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 2: the systems, the govern how we all behave they just 406 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 2: haven't changed. It, like the difficulty of reporting one of 407 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 2: these incidents. Maybe there's a little less social stigma, but 408 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 2: it's not fundamentally different than it was two years ago. 409 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 2: Federal sexual harassment laws in this country are so weak. 410 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 2: If you're a freelancer, you're not covered. If you work 411 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 2: for a workplace that has fewer than fifteen employees, you're 412 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 2: not covered. So there have been a couple of adjustments 413 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,199 Speaker 2: to the law on the state level, but like the 414 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 2: fundamental rules of our society have barely changed. So with 415 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 2: respect to your question about kids, I think about our kids, 416 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 2: and I think about grandkids, and I think, you know, 417 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 2: what are we going to tell them about this period. 418 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 2: Are we going to say, you know, wow, Megan and 419 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 2: I published this story and found ourselves, you know, at 420 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 2: ground zero of a historic shift, and we can see 421 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 2: the effects of that, you know, to this day, and 422 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 2: it really was a window of change. Or are we 423 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 2: going to say, well, you know, it's sort of kind 424 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 2: of an extraordinary period and a whole bunch of men 425 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 2: were fired, but you know, not that much fundamentally shifted. 426 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 2: And then will the kids and grandkids say, oh, yeah, 427 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 2: that's you know, sexual harassment. It still happens at my 428 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 2: workplace all the time. It happens at my you know, 429 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 2: the restaurant where I wait tables during the summer. Or 430 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 2: are they gonna look at us and say, oh my god. 431 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 2: It used to be okay for male bosses to hit 432 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 2: on younger female subordinates who they held workplace power over. 433 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 2: It used to be okay in a restaurant for the 434 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 2: male manager to grope the waitress right like they they 435 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 2: they may they may say, wait a second. People in Hollywood, 436 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,479 Speaker 2: like they just joked about the casting couch and they 437 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 2: just acep, did it as a routine part of their business. 438 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,199 Speaker 2: And will they feel a kind of shock at what 439 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 2: used to be tolerated. 440 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 1: Well, I want to get to that in a minute, 441 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: about the willingness factor, where now that they're willing, but 442 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 1: men believe sometimes that they're willing. Megan, tell me about 443 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: your crystal ball into the future. 444 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 3: If you will my crystal Ball in the future. I mean, 445 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 3: you know, we are so we are so immersed in 446 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 3: the reporting process a day in and day out. You know, 447 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 3: the first day, right after the Weinstein story broke and 448 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 3: it started to take off. I mean, we had never 449 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 3: anticipated that. Two nights before we went to you know, 450 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 3: we went to publish, Jody and I actually stepped back. 451 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,439 Speaker 3: We'd been working around the clock, and we actually shared 452 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 3: a cab back to Brooklyn at about one o'clock in 453 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 3: the morning, and in that silent moment, turned to each 454 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 3: other and said, do you think anybody's going to read 455 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 3: this story? Does anybody know who Harvey Weinstein is? Is 456 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 3: anybody going to care? So? I think if you're looking 457 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 3: for like signs that we were predictors of the future, 458 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 3: that's certainly not the case. 459 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 1: Is not the case, but it is instinct women and mothers. 460 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think that I, you know, I 461 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 3: think that it's not I would say that that, you know, 462 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 3: I think that you're actually asking the question in a 463 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 3: pretty within a pretty narrow framework. I think that we've 464 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 3: found among our sort of male friends and colleagues that 465 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 3: they are just as concerned, and parents of sons, I 466 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 3: think are just as invested in this issue. And I 467 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 3: think that you talk to parents of daughters and sons, 468 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 3: they will tell you that they really want to make 469 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 3: sure that we are able to figure out emerge from 470 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 3: this moment with some sort of agreed upon standards that 471 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 3: make sure that everybody is treated fairly and receives adequate protections, 472 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 3: and that that that it's a safe world for you know, 473 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 3: the girls and the boys. 474 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 1: Now I've got three boys, a four year old, a 475 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: three year old, and a one year old. I mean, 476 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: I want to go from that tangent, but it's it's 477 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: really remarkable how this plays into that I'm saying to 478 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: my son and going, you know, don't touch anybody without 479 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: their permission. That's true, they don't boy with But I 480 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: was filming a documentary film with Jimmy Toback, who is 481 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: a dear friend of mine, and in terms of sexual harassment, 482 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: there's a whole pile of. 483 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 2: Hundreds of women have accused him, right. 484 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 1: Jimmy's one of those people who believe that if my 485 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: batting average is ten percent, I need to hit on 486 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: a thousand women. I'm not excusing his behavior, but Jimmy's 487 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: somebody who I had this deep intellectual exploration with about 488 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: films we were going to do. We developed a bunch 489 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 1: of projects together. There were very few people in the 490 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: world you could have the kind of conversation about movie 491 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 1: making you could have with Jimmy, and he was a 492 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: very dear, dear friend of mine. And then all this 493 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: stuff comes up where they say he actually physically assaulted 494 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 1: Selma Blair. Now, when someone is your friend, you tend 495 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: to give it some credence. I am the south Shore 496 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: Long Island, middle class white boy than I am someone 497 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 1: who your friend. 498 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 2: Well, right, I mean, like, look, if your best friend 499 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 2: was convicted of murder, would you visit that person in jail? 500 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 2: That's like a it's a legit moral conundrum, right. I 501 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 2: think plenty of us are friends with people who have 502 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 2: done terrible things wrong, and that's an interesting decision, right, 503 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 2: Like do his sins against other people? There are arguments 504 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 2: for and against that preventing you from having a friendship 505 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 2: with them. 506 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: But you know, Harvey Winson is different. I never did 507 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: business with Harvey. You know, years ago people would say 508 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: blahbady blah and Oscars and this and the Weinstein Company 509 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: and Mira maxim Any raped Rose McGowan, like everybody knew that. 510 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 3: So what do you think explains that? Why do you 511 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,439 Speaker 3: think that people in your world were able to accept 512 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 3: that first but that's beft talking point. 513 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,199 Speaker 1: But I think that that's what I myself would not 514 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: use that word, except because when I did the movie 515 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: The Aviator that Harvey produced, I didn't even know he 516 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: was involved. Scorsese himself called me, and when Marty calls you, 517 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 1: you go. I arrived on the set in Montreal to 518 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: discover that Harvey was one of the producers, but he 519 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: was never there. So I do highlight the fact that 520 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: that accept is not the word. I mean nobody that 521 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: I know, except anything about him. 522 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 2: I was so curious about something you said a minute ago, 523 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 2: which is when you were talking about to back, you 524 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,679 Speaker 2: did something really interesting, which is you kept alternating between 525 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 2: the past and the present in terms of talking about 526 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 2: whether he is your friend or not. You said he 527 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 2: was my friend, he is my friend. He was my friend, 528 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 2: he is my friend, So would you still call him 529 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 2: your friend. I'm just curious. 530 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: Yes, I don't know that he's sexually assaulted women in auditions. 531 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 1: I don't know that. I don't know that well. 532 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 3: But to go back to your sort of distinction of 533 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 3: you know, it sounds like you're paying close attention to 534 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 3: this single criminal allegation and his denial of a crime. 535 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: No, I'm only saying that there's gradations here, and I 536 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: think that what Weinstein did was far where and he 537 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: had the power to do. 538 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 3: There are also gradations of the victims, right. I mean 539 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,959 Speaker 3: that in the case of Weinstein, he was allegedly praying 540 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 3: on well known, famous actresses as well as you know, 541 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 3: lowly assistants in his companies. You know, the type of 542 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 3: twenty three year olds that you wouldn't recognize if you 543 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 3: pass them on the street, you know who for the 544 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 3: most part, had sort of disappeared without a trace, without 545 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 3: you know, ever becoming public before this. And so the 546 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 3: question there, I think for you is some aside these 547 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 3: dozens of other women who have come forward, they may 548 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 3: not be famous, but you know, I think it's still 549 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 3: worth learning those allegations and knowing them. 550 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 2: Here's what I think would be a really interesting exercise. 551 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 2: The James Tobek coverage was mainly done by the La Times. 552 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 2: That's my impression. Yes, I would go back and read 553 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 2: those stories and listen to the women because it sounds 554 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,239 Speaker 2: like you may have missed something really important, which is 555 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 2: the sort of audition factor. 556 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: Involved can bring charges against Jimmy. 557 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 2: Well, remember you're saying charges, which is a criminal word. 558 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: Any civil cases brought against Jimmy by those women, I 559 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: don't know. 560 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 4: I don't. 561 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 2: We'd have to go back and check, because again it 562 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 2: was the LA Times reporting, not ours. But I guess 563 00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 2: what I'm saying is I think it's worth really listening 564 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 2: to the women's experiences. Even with the stories that are 565 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 2: allegations of sexual harassment and not violent sexual assault, there's 566 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 2: a harm that's real, even if it isn't physical, which 567 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 2: has to do with work, and it can play out 568 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 2: over a very long time. Let's talk about Weinstein, because 569 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 2: those are you know, those are the victims we have 570 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 2: interviewed the most thoroughly. When you talk to women who 571 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 2: have really terrible stories of sexual harassment by Weinstein, part 572 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 2: of what a lot of them feel now is a 573 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 2: sense of loss and grief because even though you know 574 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 2: he's been outed, and even though even though there's a 575 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 2: sense of sort of like communal accountability towards him, even 576 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 2: though the world now knows about so many of these 577 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 2: women's stories, what a lot of them say is that, 578 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 2: you know, I can never be twenty three years old again. 579 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 2: I can never go audition for those movies I can 580 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 2: never have my first job in film again, and my 581 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 2: whole life is different because of the way he treated me. 582 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 2: And there's really nothing that can ever change that. 583 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: Jody, how long have you worked at the Times? 584 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 2: I've been there a long time, like fifteen years long, 585 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 2: ten years? 586 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, And how would you describe the sexual harassment policies 587 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: of the Times? Do you nobody sexually harassed anybody at 588 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: the Times? 589 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 2: I'll tell you what, Alec. I wouldn't because that is 590 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 2: not my job and that is not Megan's job. The 591 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 2: Times has like a whole hr apparatus, and all these 592 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 2: editors and leaders. 593 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: Who deal with that you find satisfactory. 594 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, because, first of all, listen, everybody has been affected 595 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 2: by me too. I don't think there's an organization, including 596 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 2: we're sitting here at WNYC, which has had its own 597 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 2: issues over time. Every organization is affected by this. It's 598 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 2: close to all of us. There have been issues at 599 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 2: the Times, but Megan and I have been very careful 600 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 2: not to get involved in any of them because we've 601 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 2: got to do our jobs. And our jobs is, you know, 602 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 2: we're not the internal cops at the Times. Our job 603 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 2: is to uncover this information. You know, you can't solve 604 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 2: a problem you can. 605 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: Do you see, maybe there's an odd component to that 606 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: where you want me to make sure I examine Jimmy 607 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: Ktotoback in relation to Weinstein as carefully as I should. 608 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: But you don't think you need to examine the Times 609 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: as carefully as Mira Max or Weinstein films. 610 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 2: No, because we like I mean, I was just curious 611 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 2: about your personal relationship with him and your friendship. So 612 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 2: I was really I was just really asking a question. 613 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,719 Speaker 2: But I don't think it'll work context Megan and I 614 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 2: bear there are people at the Times who bear actual 615 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 2: responsibility for making sure that we have sound policies for 616 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 2: preventing and addressing this kind of behavior. 617 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: That is not Megan or I would you have a 618 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: comment about that, Megan. 619 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there have been a variety of cases 620 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 3: that have played out at the New York Times that 621 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 3: have been investigated, and some have resulted in people leaving 622 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 3: the Times. Some have reulted people being placed on probation. 623 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 3: Like it is what's clear to us, and we don't 624 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 3: know the details of those cases, but we know, like 625 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 3: we there is evidence of accountability playing out throughout our 626 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 3: own organization and you know, what we can say beyond 627 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 3: that is just that when it comes to the reporting 628 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 3: on sexual harassment and sexual assault at the New York Times, 629 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 3: that you know, we have had the support of editors 630 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 3: and beyond straight up to the very top of the organization. 631 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 3: You know, this was not this is not work that's 632 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 3: done just by just by women. This is you know, 633 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 3: male editors, the you know, male publishers. Our investigations straddled 634 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 3: the passing of the baton of of the publishers. Both 635 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 3: men were like one hundred percent in support of this. 636 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 3: And and so we you know, we we we feel 637 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 3: lucky to live to work in an organization that has 638 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 3: been willing to put so many resources behind this type 639 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 3: of work. 640 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: What do you think men now need to learn about 641 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: how to say to you, I'm attracted to you. Is 642 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: that all going to change now? Should it change? 643 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 3: Well? Listen, I think that there's agreement that there is 644 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,399 Speaker 3: a hunger for kind of a clearer sense of what 645 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 3: the guidelines should be in the workplace, but within dating 646 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 3: and more broadly, in relations of men and women. There's 647 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 3: no question that everybody can have sexually satisfying lives and 648 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 3: romantic lives normal while also figuring out how to treat 649 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 3: each other with respect. And I think that that's you know, 650 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 3: I think that the worst thing that could happen is 651 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 3: that people don't talk about these issues, and if they're not, 652 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 3: whether it's with their kids or their their partners or 653 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 3: in the workplace. But and also in these interviews, you know, 654 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 3: like we're just so grateful that you were willing to 655 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 3: talk to us about, for example, your relationship with Tobac, 656 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 3: and like, thank you for engaging with us. 657 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean I don't have work to do, 658 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: which you've reminded me of that again. I mean, I'm 659 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:50,800 Speaker 1: going to go back and read those La Times pieces 660 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: and I'm going to contact the writer, the principal writer 661 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: of that see feel he'll come do the show and 662 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:55,800 Speaker 1: talk about that. 663 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,160 Speaker 3: I think that's a great idea. I would also just 664 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 3: say that I think it's really important to wreck that 665 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 3: this is really abuse of power. This is not just 666 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 3: a sort of sexual preference or a tool that's being 667 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 3: used by unattractive guys because they wouldn't otherwise be able 668 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 3: to get redmen. Yeah, that this is abusive power. 669 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 1: I want to end by saying that this was one 670 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: of the more difficult and on my part, least successful 671 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 1: interviews I've ever done. Both of these writers know their subject, 672 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: and my own grasp of the me too issue is 673 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: in need of further research. The writer they refer to 674 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 1: from the La Times is Glenn Whip, and we will 675 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: surely invite him on in soon. In the meantime, the 676 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: friction between believe the victim and innocent until proven guilty continues. 677 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: Thanks to Jodi Kanter and Megan Towey, I am reminded 678 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 1: that we are never done re examining this issue and 679 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: our own relationship to it. Their book about their Weinstein 680 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: reporting and its fallout is called she said out Now 681 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: from Penguin Press. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing. Is 682 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,320 Speaker 1: brought to you by iHeart Radio