1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and don't welcome to stuff. 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: I never told your protection if I heart radio. So 3 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: I have a very important question for you, Samantha. Oh no, yes, 4 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: the most important question. Hey, here we go. Are you 5 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:33,959 Speaker 1: a shipper? Okay, so I don't. I didn't know what 6 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: that was for the longest time, and I took that 7 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: very literally and I was like, like ships like I 8 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: like ships? I neither ship. I don't mean, don't you 9 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: like ships? I know because I get very very like 10 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: motion sick. So the idea of being on a ship 11 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 1: is terrifying to me. And just because you know, all 12 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: I think of is diseases like cruises, cruise ships and diseases, 13 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: so and murders in the middle of nowhere. So yeah, no, 14 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: but that that I know what it actually is, which 15 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: is meaning putting people together in relationships. Right, Okay. I 16 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: had to ask again because I'm like, I'm not one 17 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: of those cool kids. What does this mean? So no, 18 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: very long answer no, because I had no idea what 19 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:21,639 Speaker 1: that was. Now do I like couples that are given 20 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: to me? Like I know that? Yes, so don't make 21 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: sense and fill force? But you know, but so are 22 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: you like watching a show and there's two characters and 23 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: you just want them to get together, or do you 24 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: sort of just sort of go with it. I think 25 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: typically I go with it now to be fair s vu. 26 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: For the longest time, I did want Olivia and Stabler. 27 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: Elliott and Olivia they should have gotten together, but they 28 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: really shouldn't know because you can't work like that, and 29 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: they know. But to me, Olivia was just so alone 30 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: and her closest connection was him, so it only made 31 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: sense to me. Mm hmm. Did you know anyone else 32 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: that shared that viewpoint? Oh? So many people, which is why, 33 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: even though you know it is a cop show, people 34 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: are still excited that Elliott Stabler is coming back, he's 35 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: having a he's getting his own show, and people cross, 36 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: probably because it's definitely another law You know, Law in 37 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: Order has like fifteen shows and this is one more 38 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:28,239 Speaker 1: of those. But yeah, it's gonna be a cover crossover. 39 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: And anytime they do like cross social media people freak out. 40 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: I am one of those people, It's true. One more 41 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: follow up question, does this couple have a name, like 42 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: a ship name? See? That never happened in my generation. 43 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 1: I don't think really, that wasn't a thing. Who was 44 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,679 Speaker 1: the most famous couple that has I don't know. I 45 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: always think of Brand Jelina. Oh yeah, yeah, there you go, 46 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: Brand Angelina, so that is in my time frame. But 47 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: I think that was just so dumb because I also 48 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: was not team but Angelina. Okay, I was too, So 49 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: that helps like that just has a negative connotation to me. 50 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: Mm hmmmm. So obviously, since you're asking me these questions, 51 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: you and I know that because of your fan fiction, 52 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: you ship. You shipp pretty hard, don't you. I it's 53 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: so funny to me, um, because, as I've said before, 54 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: I am not a romantic person. Like I don't watch 55 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: rom coms. It's not my thing. It's almost always my 56 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: least favorite part of any entertainment because I'm just not 57 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: into it. Um. But recently, I don't know why I 58 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: have started shipping things, and I think I shipp things 59 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: that I can tell it's never gonna happen. I don't know, 60 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: because it feels almost like a safer thing. Are more 61 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: fun to imagine? Is it more like a conspiracy theory 62 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: type of Yeah, they're actually together, even though they're not 63 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: going to say it out loud, but if you watch 64 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: their actions, they're together. Well, I've had an in depth 65 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: discussion recently with a lot of people about UM, particularly 66 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: Star Wars, and sure, yeah, Luke and and Han and 67 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: that I've started shipping that, and I have no idea why, 68 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: UM and I. So today we're we're talking about queer baiting. 69 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 1: And when I think about the difference to me and 70 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 1: what queer baiting is and isn't, because there is a 71 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:47,799 Speaker 1: huge debate over it is intention and I I don't 72 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: feel like the writers ever meant for anybody to interpret that. 73 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: Han and Luke we're gonna be together, you know what 74 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: I mean. So it doesn't feel like a conspiracy so 75 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: much is But he he rushed off into the blizzard 76 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 1: on half to save him and body heat. It's true. 77 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: It's true. It's true. It's true. We saw it. I've 78 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: seen it several times now, so many now. Yes, Yes, 79 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: you're the best, thank you. Yes. So we're talking about 80 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: the contentious term of queer bating, which is something that 81 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 1: has been on my mind for a while. UM and 82 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: I have found myself falling into these relationships that get 83 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: brought up in this conversation a lot. Dean and Cassile 84 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: from Supernatural DESTI l is probably the one of the biggest, 85 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: if not the biggest example given. Um oh yes, now, 86 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 1: don't get me wrong. Before I even started watching it 87 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: and now I have, it's one of my regulars now, 88 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 1: my rotation. Um, you did tell me those you this 89 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: was the first thing you told me. And and then 90 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: when I was introduced Castile on the show, I was like, oh, 91 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: there he is, and You're like just wait, just wait. 92 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: And then they even have an episode where they dedicate 93 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: to the fact that that is a theory. Yeah, the 94 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 1: fan fiction episode, right, yes, yes, um yeah, They're probably 95 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 1: the biggest example. And it's one of those things where 96 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: again I'm kind of oblivious almost when it comes to 97 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: romantic singles that Samantha, you know this, I just miss 98 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: a lot of context, a lot. But the fact that 99 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: I picked up on Dusty l without the Internet, I 100 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 1: think that is that says something. I was like, these 101 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: two characters, something's going on here. This is a little 102 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: I can see them getting together. Dean even says he 103 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: loves him anyway. The signs are there, Samantha, The signs 104 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: are there apparently, yes, yes, um, And then I I 105 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: got really caught up in Finn and Poe for a 106 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: hot man it from Star Wars, which is called Storm Pilot. 107 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: That's the shipping name for that, and I really wanted 108 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: them to end up together. Um, and I could go 109 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: on such a deep dive and I kind of did 110 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: in our two part fan fiction episodes on why this 111 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: whole thing is where? Why are we so eager or 112 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: at least some segment of us to put two male 113 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: characters together. Um. I don't know if you know this, Samantha, 114 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: because you not in the fan fiction world like I am, 115 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: but slash it just makes up a huge, huge portion 116 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: of fan fiction and it's mostly written by women, and 117 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: it's two men together. What's slash? Oh? Is that what 118 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: it's called? Yeah? Okay, because you you indicate with the slash, 119 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: so it would be deem slash castil oh. So yeah, 120 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: that's not how I okay. I'm glad you told me that, 121 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: because I would have interpreted as a different thing, like 122 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: they're the same person, one in the same but not 123 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: necessarily relationship or is or mm hmm okay. Yeah. Well 124 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: I'm happy to share my fan fiction knowledge at any point. So, um, 125 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: I actually I feel like I could do a ten 126 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: part series on this, and I want to talk about 127 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: it so much, but if I do it in a 128 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: kind of a nutshell, I think one of the main 129 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: reasons is there are more male characters. They're traditionally more 130 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: well developed, the male body is less politicized in the 131 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: female body in a plethora of ways. Uh. And then 132 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: the lack of platonic relationships, but particularly between men and 133 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: women in our media, but also men and men, um, 134 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: and so any type of closeness. I feel like we 135 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 1: automatically interpret it as romantic because it usually is. But um, 136 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: the truth remains that some companies and creators tease a 137 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: queer relationship and never actually give it. And it's become 138 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: a hot topic of debate. And uh, I've I've seen 139 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: it in uh so so many things. And and oh, anyway, 140 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: another piece of this, I I know I'm seeing things, 141 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 1: like I said, where writers didn't intend it, like in 142 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: Han and Luca is the best example, because I just 143 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: feel like there's no way they thought all these women 144 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: was latch onto that right. Um. And I know I 145 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: brought up before, UM how my gay male gay friends 146 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: have said that this makes them uncomfortable that they feel 147 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: like they can't have platonic relationships with a man without 148 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,439 Speaker 1: it being misinterpreted by somebody. And I I would love 149 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: to to hear from gay listeners with your thoughts and 150 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:59,199 Speaker 1: experiences about this. Um. I know, for me personally, when 151 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: I hadn't really come out as VIBE, but I had 152 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: been with men and women, there was sort of this 153 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: assumed sluttiness that I must be attracted to everyone, right, 154 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: and um it was really problematic and it made me 155 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: very uncomfortable. And and I had more than one dude 156 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:18,839 Speaker 1: he would come up to me and say, well, you 157 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: kissed her, so you must be down to kiss me. What. Um? 158 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: So yes, please listeners right in your thoughts about that, 159 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 1: your experiences with that. But okay, let's start with a definition. Essentially, 160 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: queer baiting is what it sounds like. It's when creators 161 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: and corporations lure lgbt Q plus audiences with the promise 162 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: of a queer relationship and then that queer relationship never happens. 163 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: Queer baiting is usually between two male characters. Again, that 164 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: could be because most of our developed characters are male, 165 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: but not always. Queer baiting is a way for our 166 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: entertainment to appeal to the masses while also safely bringing 167 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: in l g B t Q plus characters, so sort 168 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: of like a like kind of backhanded way of trying 169 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: to have your cake and eat it too, to not 170 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: offend anybody. UM. Some see queer bating as a lack 171 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: of representation leading to misinterpretation. Some see it as a 172 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,559 Speaker 1: calculated strategy, like these storylines are never going to pay off, 173 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: They never intended for them to pay off. They see 174 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: it as a way for companies to use queer people 175 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: as almost pawns and profitability. It's a big tease the 176 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: creators put in this subtext that is never going to 177 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: amount to anything. UM Glad's report found that about six 178 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 1: point four percent of television's main characters or l g 179 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:53,959 Speaker 1: B t Q plus, So that's not that many, and 180 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: just I would I would ask take a moment to 181 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: absorb how not only disappointing but painful that is it's 182 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,119 Speaker 1: toying with the community that doesn't frequently see themselves represented, 183 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: and then almost ridiculing people in that community for thinking 184 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: that that relationship could ever have been queer, that you 185 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: could ever have interpreted it that way. It's almost gas lighting, 186 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: like how how did you see this? Your silly fan, 187 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:22,719 Speaker 1: you're reading too much into it um. Some of these 188 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: relationships are openly made fun of by creators, and the 189 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: overall messages representation of these relationships is worth less than 190 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: the risk of offending any homophobic audience member, right, And 191 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: I would add that it seems like it fetishizes that 192 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,959 Speaker 1: in general, the LGBTQ population in general, which is harmful 193 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: in every way. Let's just go in. But fetishizing anything 194 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: is harmful. But it does through that, and that's you're 195 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: they're using it as a way to make profit, which 196 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: is gross. Yes, yes it is, but a very brief history. 197 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: In the ninety nineties, companies started going after what was 198 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 1: called the pink the dollar, or gay patronage. Some experts 199 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: argue the merit of this idea. Either way, cur bating 200 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: stem from the corporate desire to market to l g 201 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: bt Q plus audiences while not once again deterring any 202 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: homophobic viewers having their cake like you said, and eating 203 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: it too. So I gotta have it all, want all 204 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: the audience, so God have to say in that fun line. 205 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: So queer bating has a long history, but it's in 206 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: it's more modern sense. It goes back to quote gay 207 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: window advertising in the nineteen eighties, or using subtle elements 208 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: to draw in the l g B, d Q plus crowd. 209 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: Some scholars also called this gay vague. There's also hoh 210 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: yea or homooticism yea, which was first coined in two 211 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: thousand one, which is more closely related to queer coating 212 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: or reading. More on that in a second, But in 213 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: the early nineteen eighties it was used in the U. S. 214 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: Courts to describe homophobic rhetoric. It's current meaning most likely 215 00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 1: originates on tumbler as early as the nineties. So another 216 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: part of this is called situational homosexuality. Essentially, the absence 217 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: of the characters of one gender means that people read 218 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: a certain amount of same sex eroticism. However, many modern 219 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: day researchers think the term is archaic, that it could 220 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: apply to things like prisons, a temporary state, sort of 221 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: like quote I experimented in college, right as if it's 222 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: only it's just based on the city. It was just 223 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: a stage. It was just a stage in my life. Yeah. Yeah, 224 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: So there are a lot, a lot of aspects to 225 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: unpack in all of that, and we will, but first 226 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: we're gonna pause for a quick break for word from 227 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So let's 228 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: let's return again to Supernatural, which I do think it's 229 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: probably the biggest example modern current example of this if 230 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: we look at it specifically. Some have argued that when 231 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: creators leaned into Destio, which is again these the team 232 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: of main characters Dean and Castile, their ratings went up 233 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: and the nature of that show, and that it is 234 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: very self aware and very meta. There's like fan fiction 235 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: about It's kind of confusing to explain, but I love 236 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: seeing people's faces when I try to explain this. Basically, 237 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: they're they're sort of semi famous in this world, in 238 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: this fake world, and people write fan fiction about them. 239 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: But it's a cult, and it seems like it's mainly 240 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: like young Yes Oh, who she is the biggest fan 241 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: of of Supernatural within the world which is like a 242 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: series of books. Um she is like the most stereotypical 243 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: fan fiction girl that they could have written. They did, 244 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: um so because it is that way, because it is 245 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: very self aware and very meta, there's a lot of 246 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: room for creators to address these things, to directly address 247 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: They're the fan culture, the fandom around Supernatural. Well, at 248 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: the same time, sometimes mocking and dismissing them. The actors 249 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: also play with at conventions and in bloopers, this Dean 250 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: and Castile relationship, so they know about it and they 251 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: leaned into it, but there's still kind of a mockery 252 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: of it. I think it make fun of themselves in general. 253 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: But yeah, they definitely, and especially the earlier episodes, the 254 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: kind of homophobic yeah lines and and taglines. It's kind 255 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: of it's sad. Yeah, yeah, and I I will fight anyone. 256 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: I think Dean it is bisexual. I don't care what 257 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: the creators say, but that's my opinion. I like that 258 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: you get the one that is the most like as 259 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: as he put sit in the show, because I just 260 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: rewatched this episode where they are where the brothers are 261 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: actually confused in being in the relationship and they're like, 262 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: why do they think we're gay? Dean's like why do 263 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: we why do they think we're gay? And uh, Sam, 264 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 1: I can't believe I'm telling this. Sam's responses, Maybe you'r 265 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: but you're overcompensating. Is that why you think that? Now? 266 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: It's it's odd because if you if a show goes 267 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: on long enough, it's just this show is like fifteen 268 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: years old. There's gonna be inconsistencies with the character because 269 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 1: he is presented is like this alpha male always with 270 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: the ladies, um womanizer. Womanizer definitely uh and you know 271 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 1: he like listens to hard rock and he's a classic 272 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: rock and he's gotta classic classic rock. I don't know. 273 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: I can't really put my finger on why I think 274 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: it and get too hard into Supernatural and everybody's like, 275 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: what the hell are y'all doing? This is not sman. 276 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 1: Would you say Crowley and Dean were also a ship? Oh? Absolutely, yes, 277 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: and it probably pretty much talks about being I think 278 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 1: he's bisexual. He kind of lens into that anywhere there 279 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: was a whole like triangle castile Crowley Dean. Yes, all right, okay, 280 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: we've talked about Supernatural lot. Here's the probably the other 281 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: biggest example UM is the BBC show Sherlock. I don't 282 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: think you could read one article about queer bading and 283 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: not come across this um. And it is shipping of 284 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: the two main characters, John Watson and Sherlock Holmes, which 285 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 1: is called John Walk which, by the way, again this 286 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: is where I'm like, what, what's happening? What I don't 287 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 1: understand what's happening because I loved that show. I love 288 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:51,719 Speaker 1: that show. That was one of the ones that I 289 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 1: was always into. And like, I know, the conversation came 290 00:18:55,240 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: up that Sherlock maybe gay or bisexual because he's never 291 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: been with women, or been with anyone quote unquote it's 292 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: specifically women. But I've never like, I know, there's that 293 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: underlying joke because they're always together, so everybody assumes they're together, which, 294 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: by the way, once again is kind of like, why 295 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 1: can't they just be friends in the story. But yeah, 296 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: and I didn't. I never saw that. It's one of 297 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: those things where once you look at and and Samantha, 298 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 1: believe me, you can find, you know, gifts, just pages 299 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: of gifts, like see the proof. Um, once you see it, 300 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: it's hard to unsee. They definitely stand really like way 301 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: too close to each other a lot like face to face. 302 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,239 Speaker 1: And I know, I don't really remember it, it's been 303 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 1: so long since I watched it, but I know there 304 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: was like Moriarty is sometimes criticized as being painted his 305 00:19:52,560 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: like the evil gay trope, kind of like a disturbed individual. Um, 306 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: And I know there was something along with that that 307 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: people often point to and and yeah, as you're saying, 308 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 1: I do see the point that because of the lack 309 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: of representation, Um, I don't. I mean this is also 310 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: you could argue very true about our our society in 311 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 1: the real world, where where men aren't allowed to have 312 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: these emotional, deeply patonic relationships without them being read as romance. Um, 313 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: the SAME's true for female characters. Again, I think I 314 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: know I mentioned in a past episode if if if 315 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 1: Luke had in fact been a woman, I'm telling you 316 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: you would have been like it would have been meant 317 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: to be interpreted that way. Um, people would read their 318 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: relationship between John and Sherlock be as romantic if one 319 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: of them was me on the other female, or at 320 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: least a lot more people would. Again, it boils down 321 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 1: to we don't have a lot of representation, and we 322 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 1: don't have a lot of diversity of stories being told 323 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 1: and relationships and complex nuanced relationships. And I think that's changing. 324 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: But right now we're we're just so desperate for these stories, 325 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 1: so we're finding them where we can, are writing them. 326 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 1: And I will come back to the importance of fan 327 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 1: fiction and all this in a minute. Um. And John 328 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 1: Lack is a great example where there are all these 329 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: in show jokes that they are a coupled that show 330 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 1: acknowledging what fans want to using it, but then nothing happens. Um. 331 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 1: There are even references to Shorelock moriarity fan fiction that 332 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: are derided in the show. The creator Stephen Moffatt went 333 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: out of his way to say an interview in terms 334 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: of whether or not Shrlock was a sexual is the 335 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: choice of a monk, not the choice of an a sexual. 336 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 1: If he was a sexual, there would be no tension 337 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: in that, no fun in that. It's someone who abstains 338 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: who's interesting. Um. And he gets criticized a lot in 339 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: this whole kind of his response to people wanting that 340 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: are seeing it because I've read interviews where he's like, Wow, 341 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: I can't believe anyone would read it that way, And 342 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: then I've read somewhere it's clear that he knows and 343 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: is sort of making fun of it. Yeah, and he 344 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: just doesn't care. Right. So there are also other shows 345 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: in entertainment that included shows like House Uh, The O, 346 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: C Merlin, Riverdale, and Rosolian Isles and among so many others, 347 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: Solo a Star Wars story too. By the way, UM, 348 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: some classics. Yes, And I remember this because I remember 349 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: it was so shocking to me in my very very 350 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 1: very conservative household, because I watched the show Gabrielle and 351 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: Zena from Zena Warrior Princess. I think that was the 352 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: first like I was like, what's happening? This is not 353 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: what um? And then of course we have the Madonna 354 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 1: and Brittany kissing at the MTV Music Awards. I think 355 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: that would be definitely one of the big queer baiting 356 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: things because there's a lot of controversy of like what 357 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,120 Speaker 1: is this, why are you doing this? As well as 358 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: people always forget that Christina Aguilero was there too and 359 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: she kissed her, know if you knew that they were 360 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: both on stage with her. Yes. Also Katie Perry's I 361 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: Kissed a Girl and I liked it, which also has 362 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: other connotations because she had been in this very religious 363 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: lifestyle before she became well well known, which was always 364 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: kind of like huh interesting. Yeah, from what I remember, 365 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 1: which I feel like a lot of pop female singers 366 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 1: came from that kind of genre anyway. And then Rita 367 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: or a song Girls the New One, uh, because you 368 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: know what sex cells and there was that huge debate 369 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: about why they're doing all of this or why it's 370 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: such a new fad. It seems um and the capitalization 371 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: of pride. Companies are getting in on it, and as 372 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: we see when you get sponsored, yeah, in a Pride parade, 373 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: it's really kind of weird essentially doing the same thing, 374 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: not actually committing to representation, but wanting queer patronage. Yeah, 375 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: And I mean I've seen a lot of argument about 376 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: this with like kind of the annoyance with companies that 377 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: just are like, here's a rainbow colored cupcake, happy pride, right, Like, 378 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 1: you know, there's there's debate at least that's happening in 379 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: companies are appreciating the importance of it, but it feels 380 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: so like superficial and shallow. What else are you doing? 381 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: I mean that kind of goes hand in hand with 382 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 1: the Black Lives Matter movement and like people do the 383 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: one black tile, Like wait, but your company is not 384 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: showing that in your hiring processes and all of this, 385 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: and it's the same way you're showing this pride flag. 386 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: Do you have a presentation in your company? Have you 387 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: had it? Do you actually acknowledge that that needs to 388 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 1: be a part of your diversity. Hello, yes, yeah, um, 389 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 1: and I guess speaking of singers, are Ariana Grande got 390 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: accused of creer rating in her song Monopoly, which is 391 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 1: a collaboration with Victoria monet Um when she's saying about 392 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: liking men and women Taylor Swift video You need to 393 00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: Calm down, of course, caused a huge debate of out 394 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: where was she before this? And it's sort of it 395 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 1: just feels like capitalizing, and there's there's a certain degree 396 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: to where people in entertainment they are trying to make money, 397 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: they are trying to profit, but it can feel so 398 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: gross and like but what else have you done? What 399 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 1: else are you doing? Um? And some people it's we 400 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: should say view the very existence of queer brading as progress, 401 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 1: that queer brading, the term, wouldn't exist without at least 402 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: some queer acceptance and examples in our media. There's also 403 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 1: a debate about erasure versus labeling, like some some argue 404 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: that it shouldn't be that you have to explicitly label oh, 405 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: this is the gay couple, and then it becomes, at 406 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,479 Speaker 1: least unfortunately right now, it becomes their defining thing, like 407 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: that is all about them and they're not really complex 408 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 1: or nuanced other than that. So that's another piece of this, right, 409 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: And I think when you see because Ariana Grande was 410 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: uh in two debates, the Monopoly song and another one 411 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: where the video uh where she's talking about getting together 412 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: with a dude ends up in the end the video 413 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: kissing a girl. Um, and that was I was staying 414 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,239 Speaker 1: more criticism on that because obviously that wasn't necessarily a 415 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: part of the song. Right. And then you have Monopoly 416 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: where she people felt like she actually came out as 417 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: by or pants actual and people celebrated that. So it's 418 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 1: really interesting to see the two levels of like, okay, 419 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 1: who and what dictates if this should be celebrated or 420 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: this should be condemned, right, and interesting conversation. It does 421 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: come up in a lot of things we talked about 422 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 1: where it's always important to remind yourself no community is 423 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,199 Speaker 1: a monolith and that there should there should be healthy debate, 424 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: and that's good. I do think it's good that it's happening. 425 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: But yeah, you can see it definitely and things like 426 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: that with Ariana Grande. Right, Um, there's all so a 427 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: difference between queer baiting and ship teasing. Ship teasing which 428 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: I didn't know, and doulges now is different because at 429 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: least one person in question is canonically queer. Also, there's 430 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: a problem with only defining relationships the physical things, like 431 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 1: sus I, it's queer baiting if the same sex couple 432 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: doesn't have sex but are clearly together in other way. Yeah, 433 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: that's caused a lot of debate too. Of right, well 434 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 1: we never saw them have sex, but there there are 435 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: other ways to be in relationships. More representation the through 436 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 1: line through this whole episode. But that is problematic to 437 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: you when you're saying, well, you're not in a relationship 438 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 1: because you never had sex. Um. And And just to 439 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: to clarify for people who are in as big big 440 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 1: nerds as I am, Cannon is the accepted uh like 441 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: not fan fiction. This is what happened, so they acknowledge, Oh, 442 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: this character is gay. It's Cannon instead of me being 443 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: like but Dean and he's bisexual and it's just me 444 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: and a lot of other people but not creators. Um 445 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,919 Speaker 1: oh uh. So queer coding is also a different thing, 446 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: And this I didn't know about until we did this episode. 447 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: Mary Kate McAlpine over at Medium It wrote about hot 448 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: Fuzz in particular, and I got to watch it for 449 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: the first time. It was some of the best research 450 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,439 Speaker 1: I've ever had. Um. And so this is the Simon 451 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: peg Nick Frost film, which was a two thousand and 452 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: seven action comedy that was the second in the so 453 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: called Cornetto trilogy. In the editing of the script, they 454 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: got rid of uh the love interest at the female 455 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: love interest and made the conscious decision to leave in 456 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: those scenes with the overlying romantic interest between the two 457 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: male characters. Um or at least it can definitely be 458 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: read that way. And and one of the creators, they've 459 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: acknowledged it, celebrated it. Um they're all for you shipping 460 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: it uh anything. Never. One thing that makes this example 461 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: in particular different is they never make fun of There's 462 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: never to the moment of like are YouTube king or 463 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: something like. It's not it's just not mentioned. Um. So 464 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: that is queer coding. This to say, queer baiting sometimes 465 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: gets level that fandoms where the relationships don't go the 466 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: way fans want, which I feel like happens a lot, 467 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: especially towards the end of a series. Um. There's some 468 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: contention around whether we can assume what the creators intended 469 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: and what we wanted, and that was worse than when 470 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: creators and actors played into the trope and people saw 471 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: an evil plant. I had to do that way. Sorry. 472 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: M Ships can be a very risky business. The question becomes, 473 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: are we we are baiting ourselves? Are we so desperate 474 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: for representation or we're seeing it where it isn't And 475 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: are we dismissing cannon couples because we want to ship 476 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: another couple so badly and we'll see no evidence otherwise. 477 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: Any do you se I think I'm a very flexible 478 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: I could admit I don't know. I'm not very possessive 479 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: or controlling, which I think it's the way to be 480 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: of entertainment. And I'll be like, you know what, I 481 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: can recognize it was never meant to go this way, 482 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: but it's fun to think about. And by the way, 483 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: some called this slash goggles. Yes, so fandoms can be 484 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: they can be very um protective of stuff that they 485 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: care about, and um there can be a level of 486 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: like infighting and gatekeeping and entitlements and uh, I know 487 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: for some people you're thinking what because I feel you 488 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: probably won't encounter this unless you do go online and 489 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: look up fan fiction or forms or whatever. But believe me, 490 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: it's there and people will like. One of the most 491 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: prominent examples to me is um, people at least in 492 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: the fan fiction world really don't like Jenny Weasley and 493 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: they'll think you're stupid for even thinking they should be 494 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: a couple because they so badly wanted things to go 495 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: a different way. And that's different from queer baiting, and 496 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: and so some people are believe we use queer bating 497 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: way too much for we really just wanted things to 498 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: go a different way and they didn't. I mean, people 499 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: had a hard time. They really wanted uh Harry and 500 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: her money to be together. They did. My mom wanted 501 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: that too, and that was one of the cutest things 502 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: because she's also not like a super she doesn't ship 503 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: or I was just surprised when she said that. She's 504 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: like I thought they should have ended up together. Well, 505 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 1: they kind of changed the relationship between Nevil Lombottom and 506 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: Luna love Good from the books to the movies because 507 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: in the books they don't ever get together, but in 508 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: the movie they do. Yeah, I think they do get together, 509 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: but it's like not, Yeah, it's not in the books. 510 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: Like you would have to read something else, so you 511 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: would hope that it would be that, but they actually 512 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: made it happen. Yeah, books, and I feel like that's 513 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: definitely something that was a fan how more than it 514 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: was actually written. Oh well, that's an interesting point too, 515 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: of like fan service and uh, I mean Star Wars 516 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: comes up and so much of this because it is 517 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: as huge as we talked about, this huge franchise, right 518 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: and so like there was a debate around the same 519 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: sex kiss at the end of the Newest One, and 520 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: some people were like, well celebrating it. Other people were like, 521 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: that is so white. We don't even know who those 522 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 1: characters are. Like, um, so there is that aspect of 523 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: it too. Ah. There's a lot to unpack here, so 524 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: many things. But before we can do that, we have 525 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: to take one more break for a word from our 526 00:32:48,120 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: sponsor and we're back, Thank you sponsor. Uh and just 527 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: some concluding thoughts. One as promised, I wanted to touch 528 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: on fan fiction for a second. I would have talked 529 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: about fan fiction if I had another podcast, it would 530 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: be just fan fiction. Um. I have talked about how 531 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: powerful it is, and most people who write fan fiction 532 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: are women, are young girls, queer um from marginalized communities 533 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: because they we were seeing this space where we weren't 534 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: being represented, so we went and made it. And it 535 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: gets mocked and derided and ridiculed, but I think it's 536 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: this beautiful creative space. And so if you're if you're 537 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: shipping someone and it's not working out for you, there's 538 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: fan fiction for it, I guarantee you, and you can 539 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: always write write the fan fiction. Now, of course, this 540 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: isn't the same thing as seeing a presentation explicit representation 541 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: in the entertainment we consume um in movies and television 542 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,959 Speaker 1: and books. But I just I feel like it's really 543 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: telling that we make fun of fan fiction and particularly 544 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: young women writing it, as if they're silly, and I 545 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: mean the fearmongering around it, you wouldn't believe it, so 546 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 1: that like there's like a panic around young girls writing 547 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 1: fan fiction and what does it mean in sexuality? And 548 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: oh my god? And um, I think that's very telling. Well, 549 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: I mean, we know Twilight began as fan fiction. Yes, 550 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 1: it's a Harry Potter fan fiction, um, as well as 551 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 1: it wasn't fifty Shades of Gray fan fiction. Yes. The 552 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: most hilarious thing about this to me is so Twilight 553 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: was a Harry Potter fan fiction and then Fifty Shades 554 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: of Grays a Twilight fan fiction, and there was in 555 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 1: fighting between them, at least I seemed recall where one 556 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: of them was like, you can't do that. It's like, 557 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 1: that's what you did. And each has its own success 558 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: and also some they made a lot of money and 559 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 1: they made careers and you do you At the same time, 560 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: there's this whole underlying idea of fear of sex and 561 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: fear of sexuality and it's both of those days but whatever, 562 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: what not, um, and you're right kind of one up 563 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: to each other. It felt like, yeah, it's funny. I 564 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: have read so much fan fiction. There's sort of more 565 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: about certain fan fictions, like there's fan fiction about this 566 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,280 Speaker 1: fan fiction and I knew that one that got turned 567 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: into Twilight. I never read it, but I remember seeing it. 568 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 1: Everyone kind of knew about it. And then there's a 569 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: whole like supernatural fan fiction universe for people have taken 570 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 1: characters created in that universe and written about them. Um, 571 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: so well that was all Becky, like she made a 572 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: career of being a fan fiction writer. Yeah, and that's 573 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: actually easier to do than you might think. These days, 574 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: the copyright part can get interesting. Um. And I would 575 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: also say because some people have been like, well, write 576 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,439 Speaker 1: your own thing, Like, don't take someone else's idea. It's 577 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,840 Speaker 1: a hobby. It's not like, you know, if you like 578 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,839 Speaker 1: to play soccer, I'm not going to tell you we'll 579 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 1: go professional then like you're wasting your time. Um, It's 580 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 1: just it's a hobby. Inspiration comes from different things, and 581 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 1: why wouldn't it come from something that you love. Yes, 582 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: it's a beautiful transformed space where fans get to kind 583 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: of play in the same sandbox. And it's nice because 584 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: you all start from that shared love of this thing, 585 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:44,760 Speaker 1: and you don't have to explain the world. It's already 586 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: there and you could just go on. Um, although apparently 587 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: you don't have control of your world. No. The ending 588 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: is so tragic wa my fan fiction. You you all, 589 00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: I've gotten to the end while I haven't written it, 590 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 1: but I know it ends, and it is the saddest 591 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: thing I've ever Wow, brutal Han and Luke will never 592 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 1: be happy together never um. Which was kind of a 593 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,359 Speaker 1: segue into that. My next point is I do think 594 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 1: it's it's worth remembering that there's other loves than romantic love, 595 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:18,879 Speaker 1: and I would love for us to see that more 596 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: in our media. Right For me, growing up not having 597 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: tons of boyfriends and relationships, I most loved and treasured 598 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,720 Speaker 1: all of the books and or movies that were about 599 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: my friends. And of course it's not as accepted with 600 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: men unless you're being misogynistic together and being dumb. It 601 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,479 Speaker 1: seems again that's a stereotype, but that's what the big 602 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,720 Speaker 1: movie hits are if you look at like Hangover and 603 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 1: all of those movies. But for me, like I related 604 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: the most. I think my all time favorite book growing 605 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 1: up was just as Long as We're Together. So it 606 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: was a book written by Judy Bloom, which I loved 607 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 1: because it was about three girls coming of age, and 608 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: of course I also loved it because it was there 609 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: was an Asian adopted child into this book and I 610 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: felt very, very very represented for the first time ever, 611 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 1: um And it was one of my favorite things. And 612 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: I loved that idea of friendship. And I think that's 613 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 1: why I loved the shows like Sex in the City. 614 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: I really really clung to Now there's so many problematic 615 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: things in that show, but really clung to those friendships 616 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: and just the relationships that they had with each other 617 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,239 Speaker 1: and knowing that they would be together, Like that was 618 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,440 Speaker 1: the types of things that I loved because that's what 619 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: I related with most. Yeah, and it's unfortunate to see 620 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 1: that every time you see any relationship it has to 621 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: be romantic, no matter what. That somehow is being ruined 622 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:51,319 Speaker 1: by romance. Rutte ruins everything. I'm just saying, yeah, and 623 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,880 Speaker 1: I uh, the we just need to see more and 624 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: we need to see more platonic relationships and love, and 625 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,720 Speaker 1: we need to see relationshs just between queer people, groups 626 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:03,760 Speaker 1: of queer people, and then queer people and straight people. 627 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: There's a lot there's a lot of things at play here. Um. 628 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: And one other thing I read in a lot of 629 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: articles is it's really difficult to know what a creator intended, 630 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 1: and so it's really hard and less the creator flat 631 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 1: out says, oh, I never meant for this. Can it's 632 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:31,360 Speaker 1: hard to say what they originally met. And there's also 633 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 1: the aspect of that that who gets to own like 634 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 1: if if if I want to see de c l 635 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 1: like is that that microactive? Um? And it's that explicit 636 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 1: representation is very very important, but that comes up a lot, 637 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: and whether or not queer baiting is as big a 638 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,920 Speaker 1: thing um on the argument around, like some people think 639 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: it doesn't exist at all. Um. I think where I've 640 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: landed is it is this sort of like taunting of 641 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 1: I don't know if tauntings right word, but of companies 642 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:16,320 Speaker 1: knowing what they're doing but never intending to have that payoff. 643 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,360 Speaker 1: So I remember when Solo, a Star Wars story came out. 644 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:21,719 Speaker 1: In the trailer, there was just like some shot that 645 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: made you think, oh, Lando and Han are going to 646 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 1: get together, And then you see the movie and you're like, no, 647 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 1: there's nothing they're really other than Lando who have sex 648 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: with anybody, um or anything right Millennium Falcon uh So 649 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,439 Speaker 1: that kind of thing, right, I feel like at least 650 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 1: somebody made a calculated decision to include that and sort 651 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: of get points for being more progressive and then had 652 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,719 Speaker 1: no intention of ever actually doing it right. And it 653 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:59,360 Speaker 1: wasn't until recently that we see healthy relationships instead of 654 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,839 Speaker 1: the in the trope of a gay man obviously going 655 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: after every heterosexual man and making this whole like predatory line, 656 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 1: and you know, instead of seeing actual healthy relationship once again, 657 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:16,720 Speaker 1: where you know, you see just friendship and it's uh, 658 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 1: it's about time that we see that level and yeah, 659 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:24,400 Speaker 1: coming out as hey, yes, these two are together. Yes, 660 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,319 Speaker 1: these two discovered that they actually are in love even 661 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 1: though they didn't know it at the beginning. Why can't 662 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 1: that happen instead of it being all hidden and cloak 663 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,799 Speaker 1: and dager type of situation? Right? And I think I 664 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,839 Speaker 1: would go at least in my opinion, when I think 665 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:45,839 Speaker 1: of creerbating, there is a level of mocking to it too, like, oh, well, 666 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: you're just reading too much into this, right, and then 667 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 1: that could goes straight into you just putting a gay 668 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,280 Speaker 1: person in there, So he's going to be the gay sidekick. 669 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,000 Speaker 1: We're gonna a person of color in there. That's a 670 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,719 Speaker 1: person of color. That's just a sidekick. She's just a byline, 671 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,719 Speaker 1: um and all. Basically it's a secondary whatever. So if 672 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 1: there's a guy, you know, I love the stories where 673 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 1: there's two guys and the guy who's the cast off 674 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 1: goes with a lesser friend. I don't love it. I'm 675 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:14,439 Speaker 1: being sarcastic, but you know what I mean that that's 676 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,399 Speaker 1: kind of that whole level and it's kind of like, uh, 677 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,719 Speaker 1: that was unnecessary and it's not it's not necessarily what 678 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 1: you want to see as a representation, and what what's 679 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 1: the point of this? Right? And and I know we 680 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 1: recently released the classic about the barrier gaze trope and 681 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,680 Speaker 1: a lot of that is intertwined in this whole conversation 682 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:40,160 Speaker 1: of well, here's a gay relationship, but it never ends happy, 683 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:44,480 Speaker 1: happily one of them dies and it's usually not as 684 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,240 Speaker 1: developed at all. I know that one hundred the Alexa 685 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,959 Speaker 1: pledge that comes up in in that conversation all the time. 686 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:56,040 Speaker 1: So that's also related to this of we'll give you 687 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 1: this queer relationship, but only for a short time. It's 688 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:07,160 Speaker 1: not gonna happily right enjoy Yeah, yeah, be grateful. Uh yeah. 689 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 1: So clearly a lot to say around this, a lot 690 00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 1: of debate happening, which I think is good. I'm glad 691 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,239 Speaker 1: we're having those conversations and we need to keep having them. 692 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,800 Speaker 1: Um And we would love for you listeners to share 693 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,359 Speaker 1: your thoughts about any of this. Also, I would love 694 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,160 Speaker 1: any I'm somebody who, even though I don't ship things, 695 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:31,759 Speaker 1: I like to find the most kind of out of 696 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,600 Speaker 1: I would never pictured this couple together. I like, I 697 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,279 Speaker 1: like finding that kind of stuff. So if you getta 698 00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:40,440 Speaker 1: have any interesting ships you want to tell us about, 699 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,919 Speaker 1: Please let us know. You can email us at Stuff Media, 700 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: mom Stuff at I heart media dot com. You can 701 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,200 Speaker 1: find us on Instagram at stuff I Ever Told You, 702 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 1: are on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always 703 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,759 Speaker 1: to a super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks and thanks to 704 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,160 Speaker 1: you for listening Stuff I Never Told You the protection 705 00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from I Heart 706 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:01,719 Speaker 1: Radio is Bee I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or 707 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:03,200 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows