1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to Tech Stuff. This is the story. Each week 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: on Wednesdays, we bring you an in depth interview with 3 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: someone who has a front row seat to the most 4 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: fascinating things happening in tech today. We're joined by Bradley Hope. 5 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: Hope is an investigative journalist and author. He's the co 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:25,240 Speaker 1: founder of Project Brazen, a narrative nonfiction production studio based 7 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: in London and Singapore, and before starting his own journalism company, 8 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: Hope covered the Arab spring from Cairo, Beirut, and Abu 9 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: Dhabi and led investigations as a financial reporter at The 10 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal. He also co wrote the book Billion 11 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: Dollar Whale, about the Malaysian businessman Jolo. We asked Bradley 12 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: to join us from his studio in London to discuss 13 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: his recent piece in Wired Irresistibly, titled a Spymaster Shake 14 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: controls a one point five trillion dollar fortune. He wants 15 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: to use it to dominate Ai. So who is the 16 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: spy master? 17 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 2: Shaikh So? The spine master is Abu Dhabi. Royal Shaik 18 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 2: Taknun Benzayed al Nahyan. 19 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: Shak Tarnun is one of the twenty odd sons of 20 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: the United Arab Emirates first president. But back when Hope 21 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: started paying attention to this shadowy figure, he didn't play 22 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 1: a major role in government. 23 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 2: He was kind of this minor real estate tycoon with 24 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 2: Harbyish businesses. 25 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: When Hope moved to Abu Dhabi soon after the two 26 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: thousand and eight financial crisis, one of the things he 27 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: covered for a newspaper was real estate. The country was 28 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: in the midst of a building boom, and the craze 29 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: spread to the island surrounding Abu Dhabi, including a place 30 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: called Riem Island. Hope soon discovered that Reem Island was 31 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: actually Shake Taknun's personal project. 32 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 2: He wanted it to be kind of a little mini 33 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 2: manhattan next to Abadabi. It was like a building site, 34 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 2: you know. It was just tons of different projects rising up, 35 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 2: and even today it looks sort of half built. And 36 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 2: so I was always very interested in him because he 37 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 2: had this kind of diletantish thing about him that was 38 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 2: kind of irresistible. And over the years I watched as 39 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 2: he just rose higher and higher in the power structure 40 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 2: of Abu Dhabi. 41 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 1: Today, Sheikh Tagnun is the United Arab Emirates National Security Advisor, 42 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: the intelligence chief to one of the world's wealthiest and 43 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: most surveillance oriented small nations. Taknun is also the younger 44 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: brother of the Yue's President, Mohammad bin Zayed al Nayan. 45 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,639 Speaker 1: Outside his duties as the national security Advisor, Taknun has 46 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: official control over much of Abu Dhabi's vast sovereign wealth. 47 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: According to Bloomberg News, he directly oversees a one point 48 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: five trillion dollar empire. To put that in perspective, that's 49 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: more cash than just about anybody on the planet. And 50 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: as you might expect of a spymaster, Sheikh Taknun is 51 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: a mysterious figure, but over the years, Bradley Hope has 52 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: been able to make enough connections in the UAE to 53 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: learn more about this extremely influential politician and diplomat, a 54 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: man who seems to be transforming the small but wealthy 55 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: country into a major AI power. You described him as 56 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: one third Gulf royal, one third fitness obsessed tech founder, 57 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: and one third bond villain. Can you talk a little 58 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: bit about those three legs of the stool of Tachmoon. 59 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, so the bond villain part, you could 60 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 2: call it slightly unfair of me, but I find him 61 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 2: to be kind of giving off that vibe. He always 62 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 2: wears sunglasses indoors or outdoors, and it's because of a 63 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 2: light sensitivity, according to people I spoke to, but it 64 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 2: still gives him a James Bond villain a kind of feeling. 65 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 2: He commands this obscured network of companies that are all 66 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 2: involved in different types of espionage, and he has his 67 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 2: fingers in so many places. Like on one hand, he's 68 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 2: got all these AI companies. He's really mixed up in China. 69 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 2: He is a big investor in Israel. Under the normalization 70 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 2: of UAE Israel, he's kind of still the spymaster stuff. 71 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: He's always been obsessed with mixed martial arts and jiu 72 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 2: jitsu and has really become like this major patron of 73 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 2: the sport in the whole world. He flies over the 74 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 2: best sportsman in that sport and they come and train 75 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 2: with him and spend time with them. And I spoke 76 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 2: to a few of those guys and they said, you know, 77 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 2: he's just a kind of a fitness freak. He eats 78 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 2: one meal a day, he's exercising for two hours per day. 79 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 2: You know, he really believes in longevity, and you know, 80 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 2: I'm guessing that he probably takes like a hundred supplements 81 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 2: a day, you know, that kind of stuff. He's a 82 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 2: very interesting character. And then once you start studying the 83 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 2: Gulf royals, you really get to see what happens when 84 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 2: interesting characters are given access to resources, they just become 85 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 2: very interesting. 86 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: There's a great quote in your piece which is nearly 87 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: every story about royalty in the Gulf is a story 88 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: about succession, about paternalistic families trying to ward off external 89 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 1: threats and internal rivalries that crop up when inherited power 90 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 1: is up grabs. How is that relevant to understanding tachmoon Well, 91 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: I think that this has been something I spent a 92 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 1: lot of my journalistic career on, which is being fascinated 93 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: by these modern monarchies. 94 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 2: There's no real monarchy in the world except for the Gulf. 95 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 2: You know. These are true old fashioned monarchies where all 96 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 2: power is derived from these families, and they can make 97 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 2: huge decisions, and they can direct the entire country's wealth 98 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: towards achieving those goals. There's no technical mandate, like they 99 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 2: can't be voted out. But on the other hand, there's 100 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 2: a lot of brittleness that is created by generational transfer 101 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 2: of power, so by the time it gets to the 102 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 2: third generation, it's almost always getting very fraught. Behind every decision, 103 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 2: there's also a bit of maneuvering and trying to establish 104 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 2: what's my power going to be and if my brother 105 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 2: were to pass away, where do I stand, and all 106 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: that sort of. 107 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: Thing, and it's my understanding. This is almost exactly what 108 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: happened to Takmoon in twenty twenty two. His brother Mohammed 109 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: Benzaied became the president of the UAE, and shortly after that, 110 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: Muhammad named his own son as successor, and so am 111 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,599 Speaker 1: I writing thinking there was kind of a need to 112 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: appease Taknun, who may have seen this decision as a snub. 113 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,919 Speaker 2: Well, I'd say Tartannun became very ambitious over time, and 114 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 2: in the case that this younger son of Mahma Benzaid 115 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 2: became the crown prince, there needed to be some sort 116 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 2: of a trade with Toatnun to make him happy about 117 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 2: that arrangement, And essentially the deal was that he would 118 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 2: get much greater control over the investments of the country. 119 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: There's a detail in the story that I love about 120 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: how Taknun's sort of interest in technology began as a 121 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: personal fixation on the collaboration between man and machine. Can 122 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: you speak a little bit about that. 123 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 2: So back in the early two thousands when Shake Tatnun 124 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 2: started building this conglomerate called the Royal Group. Essentially, it's 125 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 2: a series of holding groups, which hold holding groups, which 126 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 2: hold companies, which hold further companies. One of the things 127 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 2: he got obsessed with was chess as a game that 128 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 2: he liked to play personally, and he became very interested 129 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 2: in how to invest in chess computers. This was the 130 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 2: era of Garry Kasparov playing against the Deep Blue, and 131 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 2: so he found an interesting I believe, Austrian computer scientists, 132 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 2: and it basically bankrolled that guy to develop a chess 133 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 2: computer called Hydra. And the Hydra was especially well known 134 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 2: during that period for this kind of man plus machine 135 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 2: style of playing chess. And so you would be able 136 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 2: to you as a human were there using it kind 137 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 2: of like how we use AI today. You use it 138 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 2: as a tool to play against a player. 139 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: As it suggests a range of moves and you pick 140 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: the most optimal one or. 141 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, to some extent, I think to a large extent, 142 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 2: it tells you the next move and you just kind 143 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 2: of executed it. Yeah, So he was playing chess online 144 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: so much that the computer scientist was like wondering when 145 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 2: he was going to get offline because he needed to, 146 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 2: you know, tinker with the code and stuff. 147 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: Incredible. I mean, if you'll often talk about the Middle 148 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: East as a chess board, it's one of the kind 149 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: of hoary analogyes, for thinking about the Middle East. But 150 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: I mean, do you see something in Technom's fascination with 151 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: chess and desire to win in chess that is a 152 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: kind of key to understanding how he's approached his own 153 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: rights to power. 154 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, to some extent, A country like the 155 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 2: UAE is in a very interesting sort of precarious position 156 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 2: compared to some other bigger country. It's pretty small. It's 157 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 2: a country of I think it's something like six million residents. 158 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 2: Of those, more than a million are actual emiratis, so 159 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 2: it's a very small population. The country is famously full 160 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 2: of expats, so there's no way that they could ever 161 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,199 Speaker 2: go to war with another country. As a country, they 162 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 2: really have to be kind of strategically allied at the 163 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 2: same time as that they don't want to just be 164 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 2: a pawn of the West or of America. So they're 165 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 2: in things like developing a stronger relationship with China. So 166 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 2: I do think someone like Toatnoon and someone like the 167 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 2: President Muhammad Bin de Sided figuring out how how they 168 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 2: fit into the world is is a very strategic question 169 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 2: for them. 170 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: I want to kind of chart Technolog's progress from eccentric 171 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: with interest in chess and robotics to spy master to 172 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: this kind of current AI investor at large. But maybe 173 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: we can start with with his kind of becoming a 174 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: spy master. How did that start to happen? How did 175 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: it start to show up? 176 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 2: Well, I'll caveat by saying it's very hard to know 177 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 2: everything about these people because they don't give interviews, nobody 178 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 2: talks around them in an official capacity. You know, it's 179 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 2: a very difficult place to report on, and I'm only 180 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 2: able to do so because I've lived in the region 181 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 2: and i just developed enough relationships where I'm able to 182 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 2: do that. But my hypothesis around how he became a 183 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 2: spymaster is actually focused on this digit because when he 184 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 2: was running Royal Group and focusing on Rheam Island and 185 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 2: not really playing a huge role in sort of the 186 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 2: strategic part of the country. They started having some questions 187 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 2: about how do they use technology to enforce essentially a 188 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 2: police state because the UAE, like I said before, is 189 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 2: kind of fragile. It's kind of a spy's paradise because 190 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 2: all the countries in the world are there, and so 191 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: they're all spying against each other, and there's an element 192 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 2: of danger and risk to their whole positioning. If there 193 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 2: was a bomb that exploded in Dubai or something, that 194 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 2: would be hugely problematic for the country. So they were 195 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 2: thinking about, well, we can't have like police on every corner. 196 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 2: We're not China, we don't have that size of a population, 197 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 2: so we need to use other techniques, and technology was 198 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 2: the answer, you know. And so I think top Nune 199 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 2: just had a much greater appreciation of technology and that 200 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 2: was enough to make him start to play a crucial 201 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 2: role in how do we use technology for domestic security 202 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 2: and then overtime for external threats as well. And so 203 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 2: there was like a pro democracy activist in the UAE, 204 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 2: and famously, when they figured out how his computer had 205 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,959 Speaker 2: been hacked, they traced it back to the Royal Group 206 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 2: there was like a connection in the kind of digital trail, 207 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 2: So that's why I have that hypothesis. And then also 208 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 2: there's an element of his personality which is useful too, 209 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 2: which is he doesn't seem to me in all my 210 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 2: reporting to be a judgmental person or a dogmatic person 211 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 2: at all, which is probably useful to be as a spymaster. 212 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 2: So whenever, for example, secret meetings happened, he would be 213 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,439 Speaker 2: often the person that would go, and it wouldn't be 214 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 2: like a news item for him to go, versus if 215 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 2: his brother went. The kind of effective ruler, and he 216 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 2: seemed to have a kind of cool temper because the 217 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 2: UAE was in this very pitched, never physical, but very 218 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 2: heated battle with Qatar, this other little island nearby, and 219 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 2: eventually when they reached a deal mostly broke good by 220 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 2: Saudi Arabia, it was only tak Noon who would go 221 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 2: and meet the quitaris. So I think that's kind of 222 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 2: why he eased into the role to some extent. 223 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:11,959 Speaker 1: What was some of the other kind of signature cyber 224 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: espionage programs and did you have any experience of them 225 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: in the period you were living in UAE. 226 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 2: I had this kind of funny experience. One day, I 227 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: think probably in two thousand and nine or so, everyone 228 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 2: had blackberries at that time, iPhones were not as popular, 229 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: and I picked the BlackBerry up to speak into it, 230 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 2: and it was so hot that it almost burnd me 231 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 2: the mic in my phone, and I thought there was 232 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 2: something going wrong with it. But then everybody else started 233 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 2: having the same problem, that they were reporting the same problem, 234 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 2: and then emerged on a security website that what had 235 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 2: happened was they had tried to roll out to all 236 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 2: Blackberries a kind of patch that allowed them to selectively 237 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 2: download all of the messages of that person, because at 238 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 2: that time, BlackBerry messengers were considered very secure and you 239 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 2: couldn't get BlackBerry emails, and so basically the UA government 240 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 2: couldn't access what was happening on BlackBerry messengers. But instead 241 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 2: of rolling it out correctly, they rolled it out so 242 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 2: that all the phones instantly started trying to download all 243 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 2: the messages to a central server, and that server just 244 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 2: got completely overloaded instantly, But because it kept trying to 245 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 2: access it over and over again, it was heating up. 246 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: The phones and was taken and directly involved in that. 247 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: We don't know, I guess, but do you have hypothesis 248 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 1: that he may have been. 249 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 2: I think it was part of the kinds of things 250 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 2: he was working on. I don't know if it was 251 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:29,959 Speaker 2: his particular responsibility or decision, but I think yeah. 252 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: Coming up, how do spymaster Shake became a pivotal player 253 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: in the global race for AI stay with us? How 254 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 1: did this sort of experience with building a technological surveillance 255 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: architecture prepare technom for the current chapter? I mean, how 256 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: do you go from the mid two thousands to today 257 00:13:58,160 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: in terms of the scale of what he's trying to 258 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,599 Speaker 1: achieve even and how did this cyberspionare stuff in a 259 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: sense prepare him for the moment? 260 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 2: Well, I would say probably right now, the cyber espionage 261 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,679 Speaker 2: stuff is actually holding him back to some extent because 262 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 2: he has it's a bit of a checkered history for 263 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 2: because the UAE has a lot of money and it 264 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 2: wants to invest that money in a way that results 265 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 2: in more money being made. And also they're quite trend following. 266 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 2: They love new technology, and when there's a big sector 267 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 2: interest in the world, they also are interested in that sector. 268 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 2: And then also any wealthy developing country so to speak, 269 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 2: can you use AI as a differentiator because they're going 270 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 2: to be less focused on like AI ethics or controls. 271 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 2: They'll be more focused on just using it, getting it going, 272 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 2: but there will be less handringing about the problems and 273 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 2: risks of that. So I think the UA is just 274 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 2: a place that is generating a lot of money because 275 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 2: of oil, and they're looking for places to put it, 276 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 2: and they're excited to put it into the things that 277 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 2: seem exciting. 278 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: One of these things is Stargate, right star Yeah, And 279 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: Stargate is this huge investment program to build data centers 280 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: that Trump announced recently with Larry Ellison from Oracle and 281 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: Sam Altman from Open AI and Nassi actually so from SoftBank. 282 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: According to your piece, Taknoon is in control of an 283 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: enormous amount of money one point five trillion dollars, and 284 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: after he was kind of passed over in the succession race, 285 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: he was made chairman of the Abu Dhabi Investment Authority, 286 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: a sovereign wealth fund that controls money on behalf of 287 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: the government. On top of that, Taknoon presides over something 288 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: called Group forty two or G forty two. Can you 289 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: tell us a bit more about this tech conglomerate. 290 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 2: So one of Tartnun's favorite things are conglomerates, and there's 291 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 2: many different parts of money in Abudwi. There's more passive 292 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: big funds like the abadw Investment Authority, and then there's 293 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 2: all these more aggressive funds. There's Mubadala, and then there's 294 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 2: even more aggressive funds which are like the Tatnoon entities. 295 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 2: These different conglomerates. One of the ones he created was 296 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 2: called G forty two or Group forty two is supposedly 297 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 2: a reference to is that Hitchiker's Guy, Hitchiker's Guide to 298 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 2: the Galaxy. Yeah, so this group was a kind of 299 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 2: Frankenstein in a way. It collected some old companies that 300 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 2: were moved under it, and then it also established new initiatives, 301 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 2: and like all golf things, it was extremely well funded, 302 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 2: you know, in the billions. But also hidden within the 303 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 2: structure are companies that could be even perceived as a 304 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 2: bit problematic because of the kind of work they were doing. 305 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 2: So it kind of has again this James Bond villain 306 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 2: vibe Group forty two. 307 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: So there's this one chess game happening in the Middle 308 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: East between Kutter and Saudi and UAE, and then there's 309 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: another global chess game when it comes to technology, and 310 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: I think we just talked about Stargate, but then we 311 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: had the deep seek Chinese AI model. We've had the 312 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: hand ringing about whether or not export controls on video 313 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: chips actually effective. Is taking on positioning himself with the 314 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 1: UAE's cash and his investments, to play a role in 315 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 1: this larger global chess game. 316 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 2: I think in general, the UAE doesn't have an inherent 317 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 2: AI advantage. They haven't, for example, drawn all the world's 318 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 2: best AI people to live in Abu Dawi to build 319 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 2: their companies. So what they can do is piggyback on 320 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 2: these bigger companies in Silicon Valley. And the challenge that 321 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 2: they've had in the chess game is that the US 322 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 2: is taking this very protectionist view of AI and they're 323 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 2: saying this is like a national treasure security issue, and 324 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 2: they told the UA, look, you can't work with China 325 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 2: if you're going to work with US. So one of 326 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 2: the things that group for you two has had to do, 327 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 2: and what Town News had to do is basically jettison 328 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 2: all of this maybe perhaps billions of dollars of investment 329 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 2: in China related joint ventures just to have access to 330 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 2: the seemingly cutting edge USAI companies. 331 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: So in a sense, the US forced Tarknoon into a 332 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 1: choice between the US and China in terms of access 333 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: to investment. 334 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, because if the UAE remained close with China, 335 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 2: especially some of these companies like Huawei and had this 336 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 2: potential risk according to the US of IP leakage and 337 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 2: information leakage to the Chinese companies and the government, then 338 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 2: the US was going to block them from having any 339 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,479 Speaker 2: of the fancy Nvidia chips that you need to kind 340 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 2: of do this AI training and make it very difficult 341 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 2: for them to have play a role in AI at all. 342 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: And why now and what made what made this moment 343 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: that the one to kind of run a big story 344 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: on Tagnoon. 345 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 2: Well, primarily I would say is that he had become 346 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 2: such a high profile person. So not only had he 347 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 2: taken on so much money control of so much money 348 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 2: in the country, so he became this big investor globally, 349 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 2: but also he had really sort of broken through from 350 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 2: spymaster to kind of citing to be this more public figure. 351 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 2: So even last summer he was on this big almost 352 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 2: like a road show. It is very similar to when 353 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 2: Mohammed bin Salman first came to America and he had 354 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 2: all the meetings in Silicon Valley and in Texas. So 355 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 2: actually taught Nun did the exact same trip this last summer, 356 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 2: and it was all in anticipation of this kind of 357 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 2: rebranding of him and the rebranding of his efforts as 358 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:27,959 Speaker 2: being you know, the friendly partner in AI investing. And 359 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 2: obviously this coincides with this huge demand for funding because 360 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 2: you know, these companies like open Ai are just absorbing 361 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 2: billions of dollars and just burning it on training new 362 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 2: models and trying to grow and defeat the competition. 363 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: Can you just explain what is the balance they're trying 364 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 1: to strike between investing in projects like Stargate and investing domestically. 365 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 2: Well, I think Stargate is for the UA. Stargate would 366 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 2: be a political investment to just make Trump happy because 367 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 2: it means that because Trump loves to make announcements where 368 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 2: there's big numbers, and they contributed to that. So anybody 369 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 2: who comes to Washington and agrees to make a big 370 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 2: number announcement gets you know, FaceTime with the President. So 371 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 2: there's a political element for sure. And then on top 372 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 2: of that, it's continuing to beat down the skepticism of 373 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 2: the UAE as a trustworthy partner. There's a lot of 374 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 2: people in the security apparatus who think it's a terrible 375 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 2: idea to allow anything sensitive within the UAE. Not not 376 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 2: even because the UA wants to leak it, but maybe 377 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 2: they just can't even prevent it from leaking in some cases, 378 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: like it may just be considered a leaky place for 379 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 2: one reason or another. And then also it's a chance 380 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 2: for them to grow closer to these companies like open 381 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 2: AI and potentially get open AI to let them build 382 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 2: facilities in the UA, which leads to other economic benefits 383 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 2: for the UAE. And also they always like to be 384 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 2: close to domain experts so that they can figure out 385 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,719 Speaker 2: how they might be able to apply those innovations in 386 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 2: the country. So the UA has in a bit of 387 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 2: head of the curve. They had the first Minister of 388 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 2: AI before this big AI boom, and I think because 389 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 2: they're so small, they really want to use this to 390 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 2: tackle the bureaucracy of the country and make it possible 391 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 2: to even better self govern themselves. 392 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: And of course one of the key things you need 393 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: a lot of AI right now seemingly is cash, but 394 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: the other is energy. So there is a there's a 395 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: kind of geo strategic advantage that UA has in that respect, right. 396 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, And also the UA because of the distorted amount 397 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,120 Speaker 2: of capital in Abu Dhabi and because everything is top down, 398 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 2: they end up doing a lot of things that are 399 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 2: not economically feasible in the short term, Like, for example, 400 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 2: when they're building infrastructure, they overbuild. They like vastly overbuild 401 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 2: their infrastructure, which at the time is inefficient as an 402 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 2: economic point. But in this particular case, now they have 403 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,679 Speaker 2: all this excess capacity for power, for space, for water, 404 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 2: and things like that that they can use to now 405 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 2: pivot towards building data centers for example. 406 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: How did China react to technoum walking away from some 407 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 1: of those relationships. 408 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 2: Well, that's one thing that I talked to some people 409 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 2: in the US government about which was interesting that usually 410 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 2: when somebody makes a public kind of embarrassment for China 411 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 2: or they reject them, or they tear their equipment out 412 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 2: or whatever, or they suggest that Huawei is unreliable or 413 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 2: a state backed conspiracy or something, they tend to punish 414 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 2: people for that in one way or another. But now 415 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 2: in the UA's case. I think China's playing a longer game. 416 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 2: They realize the UA has to make these kind of 417 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 2: comments and follow the US orders I guess or requirements. 418 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 2: But I think that the fact that they didn't say 419 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 2: anything about it suggests that they feel very comfortable in 420 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 2: their relationship with UAE in the long run, and that 421 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 2: the UAE itself is going to follow the rules to 422 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 2: the letter of the law, but not beyond that. So 423 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 2: there's going to be always room for further discussion. 424 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: When we come back the future of the United Arab 425 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: Emirates global AI influence stay with US. Did the US 426 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: under the Biden administration build in any enforcement requirements to 427 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: make sure that in return for access to key US 428 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: technologies technolo in the UAE sort of kepture their word 429 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: and didn't also work with China. Or was this like 430 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: a handshake agreement. 431 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 2: I don't think there's a lot of teeth on it, 432 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 2: But I think Microsoft has taken on a lot of 433 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 2: responsibility because they're sort of the partner at Group forty two. 434 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: So Microsoft invested in Group forty. 435 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 2: Two, yes, as a kind of as part of this 436 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 2: whole agreement with the US government to allow the UA 437 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 2: to start having more access to AI technology and these chips. 438 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 2: So Microsoft has kind of became a little bit of 439 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 2: a steward of that decision. So they've taken on a 440 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 2: little risk because if for some reason group who does 441 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 2: something untoward which we don't think or no they will, 442 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 2: then Microsoft will look pretty bad for having been an 443 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 2: investor in the company and overseer of this relationship. 444 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: It's so fascinating how there's so much criticism of state 445 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 1: owned enterprises in China from a US perspective, but this 446 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: seems to be, at least on the surface, looks like 447 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: an example of a private company sort of being coupted 448 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: by the government or encouraged by the government to play 449 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 1: a role in diplomacy. 450 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, it's a very complex space too, and 451 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 2: you know, also it's one of those things where there's 452 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,360 Speaker 2: so much going on all the time. For example, it's 453 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 2: my understanding that in the future, whenever you use chat 454 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 2: GBT and maybe in certain parts of the world, there's 455 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 2: a chance that your query will rout through the UAE. 456 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 2: So there's two types of AI that require these chips. 457 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 2: One of them is the training of the original models, 458 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 2: and that's kind of like the secret sauce very closely 459 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 2: held that will continue to be only done in America. 460 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 2: But then the other thing is the actual workforce nature 461 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 2: of AI where it which is called inference. And so 462 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 2: if you're putting in a request that could route through 463 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,919 Speaker 2: the UA, and it's a little nerve wracking if you, 464 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 2: for example, might be an IMMORDI activist based in London, 465 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 2: to know that you know you're trying to build your 466 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 2: some sort of a document using AI, it might be 467 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 2: routing through the UE. And there's just a feeling, at 468 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 2: least at this stage, that that's a bit risky. And 469 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 2: it's unclear if it is a risk or not, but 470 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 2: it definitely feels like a risk. 471 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,239 Speaker 1: So, taking a step back, what is your interpretation of 472 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: what Technowon's key goal is today overall with all of 473 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: his AI stuff, and is he on track to achieving it? 474 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 2: I would say his big goal is to I mean, 475 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 2: it's funny to say it like this, but simplistically, his 476 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 2: big goal is to look like he's succeeding. So the 477 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 2: optics of all these deals, for example, saying I made 478 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 2: a return on this deal are the thing that matters 479 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,719 Speaker 2: the most. Nothing matters more than that, And then after that, 480 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:06,439 Speaker 2: it might be that AI somehow helps transform the country 481 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 2: and makes it more efficient and makes it a better 482 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 2: place to live and things like that. But that's a 483 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 2: distant second to the first one, which again just is 484 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 2: a very clear indication that we're dealing with an absolute 485 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 2: monarchy without power centered in one place. So it's all 486 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 2: about how you look visa vis your brother or brothers, 487 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 2: and that's the most important thing to them of all. 488 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 1: I think, I guess two big things changed since you 489 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: reported this story. The first is the Biden administration became 490 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 1: the Trump administration, and the second was this kind of 491 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 1: like deep seek freak out where the power of export 492 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: controls on Nvidia GPUs was was questioned. Can you kind 493 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,959 Speaker 1: of talk about both of those things in terms of 494 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 1: how they affect the fundamental dynamics of the story that 495 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: you wrote. 496 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think on the Trump side, he's always been 497 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 2: a fan of this transactional relationship with the Golf, like 498 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 2: he wants to do a big deal and they have 499 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 2: a lot of money, and let's do a deal. And 500 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 2: the UA. He's always understood that the Gulf people in general, 501 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 2: the leaders enjoy Donald Trump for that reason because they 502 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 2: kind of know who they're dealing with. He's not somebody 503 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 2: who's going to be trying to enforce some sort of 504 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 2: view of what the world should be like or what 505 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 2: human rights are things like that. Not that they don't 506 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 2: believe in human rights in the UAE, but they just 507 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 2: have a very different understanding of government. They believe in 508 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 2: absolute power and they don't believe in democracy and things 509 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 2: like that. So I think on the Trump side, things 510 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 2: are looking good for them. But on the other hand, 511 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 2: Trump is still pretty hawkish on China and so the 512 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 2: same kind of standards that were placed before. By the way, 513 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 2: the kind of criticism of the Group forty two deal 514 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 2: wasn't coming from the Democrats. Actually it was coming from 515 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 2: both sides, including a lot of people who are hawkish 516 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 2: on China and things like that. So I think he 517 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 2: will still be persuaded by the China argument to keep 518 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 2: very tight control on AI technology. So it's probably not 519 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 2: too transformed different that respect. On the deepseak side, I'm 520 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 2: sure at a strategic level, they were thinking to themselves 521 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 2: that they've really sided with the US in a somewhat 522 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 2: short sighted way, because if they had stuck with their 523 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 2: China partnerships, they maybe would have had access to just 524 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 2: as good, if not cheaper, less constrained requirements and rules 525 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 2: around China AI. But at the end of the day, 526 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 2: the UAE has always been a fairly pro US leaning country, 527 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 2: So I'm not sure if they would have gone completely 528 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 2: gone a different direction, but it would have given them 529 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 2: a different kind of leverage in these discussions. 530 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: And then I guess, just to close, what will you 531 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: be looking out for in this story as it develops? 532 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: I mean, this is the Tech Stuff podcast. What should 533 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: the text Stuff audience know and be thinking about when 534 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: it comes to the interaction between the golf monarchys, their 535 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: investment portfolios, and the development of technology in the US. 536 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 2: Well, I'm very persuaded by this publication called Rest of 537 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 2: the World, which is run by a called Sophie Schmidt, 538 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 2: and they have this view which I really subscribe to, 539 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 2: which is that all of the best and worst things 540 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 2: that could happen with AI are not going to happen 541 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 2: necessarily in the Western countries first, because if you're in Indonesia, 542 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 2: if you're in Thailand, that's where people are going to 543 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 2: really be able to push the limits on the AI 544 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 2: use cases in ways that are both dangerous and good 545 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 2: at the same time. So I think watching how AI 546 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 2: is used in countries around the world, especially places like 547 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 2: the UAE, is very indicative of the true underlying value 548 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 2: and danger of AI, because it's like, you know, if 549 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 2: a criminal sits down with an AI and it's not 550 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 2: controlled in the way that it is controlled now, and 551 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 2: they say they want to do something, it could become 552 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 2: an ingenious tool to invent schemes and things like that. 553 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 2: And the same thing can be true of countries which 554 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 2: is inventing things, inventing ways of repression, of monitoring the 555 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 2: population and things like that. So I think that's really crucial, 556 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 2: really important. The story that I wrote was a lot 557 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 2: more about strategic geostrategic element, but the application of AI 558 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 2: is really important on the geo strategic level. I would 559 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 2: also be really interested to see how the Saudi UAE 560 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 2: relationship continues to play out. Saudi is a much bigger 561 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 2: country with a much bigger economy, much bigger ambitions in 562 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 2: a way, and now they're watching the UAE make these 563 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 2: announcements with Donald Trump, and they're they're most likely in 564 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 2: my view, sitting back thinking about Okay, what's our you know, 565 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 2: one two punch going to be that's going to completely 566 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 2: change this equation and make us the leading investor in 567 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 2: AI in the world. 568 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: Thank you, Bradley, No problem. That's it for tech Stuff, 569 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: I'm os Vloshin. This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis 570 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: and Victoria Domingez. It was executive produced by me Karen 571 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: Price and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Novelle for 572 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts. Jack Insley makes this episode and Kyle Murder 573 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: Rodolph join us on Friday for the Weekend tech We'll 574 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: break down the headlines and hear from our friends at 575 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: four or Form Media about how Hollywood is getting creative 576 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: with AI. Please rate, review and reach out to us 577 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com. We can't 578 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: wait to hear from you.