Speaker 1: Today is International Women's Day. It is a day across
Speaker 1: media organizations, publications talking about women, celebrating women, all the
Speaker 1: great things about women. So I decided to bring together
Speaker 1: some of my favorite women my actual group chat come
Speaker 1: to life. I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor, NBC News Senior correspondent,
Speaker 1: and this is Modern Rules, a podcast from NBC Think
Speaker 1: and I heart Radio, and I just want to introduce
Speaker 1: everyone to start. Hillary Rosen one of the most extraordinary
Speaker 1: voices of influence in crisis management pr as well as
Speaker 1: a CNN contributor Amanda Kats who was most recently with
Speaker 1: CNN in their investigations team. She is currently the author
Speaker 1: of an intriguing substack known as The Interpreter. I highly
Speaker 1: recommend it. Tammy had Dad, veteran TV superstar from both
Speaker 1: CNN and NBC. She is now a media consultant, and
Speaker 1: Caris Wisha, host of not one but two podcasts, Sway
Speaker 1: and Pivot. Thank you all so much for being here.
Speaker 1: You are my group chat. I as a rule do
Speaker 1: not have group chats. I find them to be too risky,
Speaker 1: too dangerous, because I don't necessarily trust or no everyone
Speaker 1: on it. As Heidi Cruz learned from hers, But I
Speaker 1: want to talk to you all about how important it
Speaker 1: is in life as women, professional women to have sort
Speaker 1: of this not official women's network, but to have real
Speaker 1: women friends. Hillary, I turned to you first. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think it's in a in a way, it's everything
Speaker 1: right because, particularly this past year, I've noticed that Amanda's
Speaker 1: actually written about this. I noticed that there's so many
Speaker 1: moments where, you know, I lived inside my head because
Speaker 1: I was isolated and I wasn't in my regular life,
Speaker 1: and having the outlet of you know, the five of
Speaker 1: you to to talk to on the phone, on you know,
Speaker 1: on chat it, I actually don't know that I could
Speaker 1: have gotten through this year without you guys. Um that
Speaker 1: just amplifies everything that I've experienced in my professional life.
Speaker 1: This year was sort of the culmination of that, Amanda.
Speaker 1: When we hear people talk about girlfriends, they often think
Speaker 1: like a coffee clutch, a mom's group, gossiping. But how
Speaker 1: much of an impact does it have on your life
Speaker 1: professionally to have this group of brutally honest women who
Speaker 1: also love and care about your success professionally. That's a
Speaker 1: good question. I think that you guys actually are kinder
Speaker 1: than you are, brutally honest, I don't feel like the
Speaker 1: function of the group chat is to, like, you know,
Speaker 1: truly call you out, except when it comes to my
Speaker 1: love life. Your guys are all brutally to me. It's
Speaker 1: been very, very welcome. I mean, as as Hillary was
Speaker 1: just saying, this has been a really challenging year, I
Speaker 1: think in terms of lack of access to friends. For me,
Speaker 1: I compounded that by moving to a new city right
Speaker 1: at the start of the pandem make I also have
Speaker 1: a small baby. Last summer, I left my job that
Speaker 1: I've been in for several years, and the combination of
Speaker 1: those things has made it more important than ever to
Speaker 1: have these kinds of connections. You know, I will say, like,
Speaker 1: when I hear the word girlfriends, of course, you know,
Speaker 1: I think of something a little more romantic, just because
Speaker 1: of where I'm coming from, and you know, my other
Speaker 1: group chats are pretty co ed. Actually, this is I
Speaker 1: think the only one that I can think of that's
Speaker 1: all women. But there's something about women who are really
Speaker 1: looking out for each other and have each other's best
Speaker 1: interests at heart, and also have a sense of humor,
Speaker 1: also are there to debate and discuss and gossip and
Speaker 1: can move from the light to the serious seamlessly. I
Speaker 1: think that is such an important thing right now, and
Speaker 1: especially when I'm not seeing those people in person, as
Speaker 1: I haven't for the last year, you know, with a
Speaker 1: few exceptions, it's felt really critical to have that outlet
Speaker 1: Tammy talk about what a change we've seen. Think about
Speaker 1: the beginning of your career. I remember, for me, when
Speaker 1: I started in investment banking, there was no women's mafia.
Speaker 1: In fact, there were so few women. It was much
Speaker 1: more like I had to scratch and climb my way here.
Speaker 1: You know, good luck you you find your way on
Speaker 1: your own. It has changed so much at this point
Speaker 1: that if you're not a woman who stands with other women,
Speaker 1: you're the outsider. Yeah, I do think that's changed. And
Speaker 1: just even having that many women in the room. But
Speaker 1: you know, this is all very lofty talk. I miss
Speaker 1: seeing all of you and the horrified look on your
Speaker 1: face when we talk about someone or something. This is
Speaker 1: so great that we can see each other, Stephanie, because
Speaker 1: this is what we're missing in real life, Like did
Speaker 1: that person actually do that? Did this person that I've
Speaker 1: worked with for twenty years actually say that McCall has
Speaker 1: everyone gone crazy? Has this pandemic really tipped us over?
Speaker 1: And it's such a reminder that just being able to
Speaker 1: tell your friends about it and bounce it off them
Speaker 1: and think about things a different way. You know, I
Speaker 1: think people are interested in other opinions and look at
Speaker 1: all of us here, even though you guys are usually
Speaker 1: wrong and I am right, sure, okay, whatever. I just
Speaker 1: like the visceral sharing of all the good and all
Speaker 1: the bad, and to be able to run things by
Speaker 1: my friends to make sure I haven't gone start breading
Speaker 1: man care For someone who doesn't know you, they might
Speaker 1: not know that you have an informal women's network, a
Speaker 1: mafia behind you that stands behind you, that talks you
Speaker 1: through things. I mean, you're a very outspoken, independent person,
Speaker 1: and I'm not sure an outsider would know. You've got
Speaker 1: a group chat chatting you up every day. Yes, I do,
Speaker 1: but I have a lot of group chats that you
Speaker 1: don't know about, and they're started. I actually do. I
Speaker 1: have very different group chats for different things, and so um,
Speaker 1: I think it's important to have to. I have it.
Speaker 1: Like when something happens and you want a quick reaction,
Speaker 1: depending so I'm really interested in this idea of how
Speaker 1: through the pandemic, like this idea of what will stick
Speaker 1: and what won't. But this idea of reaching out to
Speaker 1: people that is an analog which has been happening past
Speaker 1: two decades. But where does it evolve too? So you
Speaker 1: see like the Clubhouse, which is I think I'm trying
Speaker 1: to figure out what's right about it. And actually this
Speaker 1: idea of being alone and then being able to reach
Speaker 1: out and just listen to people talk. It's not unlike
Speaker 1: talk radio, it's not unlike group chats or something like
Speaker 1: that is a really interesting one. And so I think
Speaker 1: text plays into that because you can do them quickly.
Speaker 1: It's not Twitter, where you just have nine people responding
Speaker 1: to you. But I don't I don't think that's what
Speaker 1: this is. I mean, all of that's performative. You don't
Speaker 1: below Clubhouse and people on most of it on Twitter,
Speaker 1: they're all they're all speaking to an audience that they're
Speaker 1: not selecting, that they're you know, they're trying to present
Speaker 1: themselves to the world. And I do think despite Kara's
Speaker 1: desperate desire never to need anyone or demonstrate that no
Speaker 1: person that she's talking to is the most important person
Speaker 1: in her life, which is why she dishes us even
Speaker 1: into our face. The group shout that we have and
Speaker 1: you know, we obviously all have other friends, but there's
Speaker 1: something about dear friends and take who will call you
Speaker 1: on your who will hold up a mirror while they
Speaker 1: still are the most supportive people in the world and
Speaker 1: rooting for your success. And I think that you hear
Speaker 1: it differently, like we're all, you know, public people, and
Speaker 1: we're all subject to criticism, and I think when you
Speaker 1: hear critique and engagement from somebody really trust, like I
Speaker 1: trust you, guys. I listened to it differently, and I
Speaker 1: think that that's a hallmark really of kind of the connection.
Speaker 1: What's funny that we should tell more about our groups, Stephanie.
Speaker 1: We'll text each other people were respond and then it
Speaker 1: gets to the point that somebody calls someone else and
Speaker 1: then we're all on the phone, right, correct, that's the
Speaker 1: tipping point that you have to get the person on
Speaker 1: the phone, but all of a sudden, we're like, what
Speaker 1: did you just say? Yeah, it's usually for clarification of
Speaker 1: extremely offensive content, which is always from you. I haven't
Speaker 1: slightly offensive maybe unpopular opinion, but I do. It's a
Speaker 1: red flag for me in terms of never trust a
Speaker 1: woman who doesn't have girlfriends, because I think who you
Speaker 1: surround yourself, your girlfriends do make you better and smarter.
Speaker 1: Is that, in your opinion, Amanda? An important thing, especially
Speaker 1: when when it goes directly back to what Hillary was saying.
Speaker 1: When you think about people's public actions or hubrisk, it
Speaker 1: often makes me think, where's that person's girlfriend, Where's their mother,
Speaker 1: where's their sister? Where someone shaking them saying this is
Speaker 1: a terrible move? What are you thinking? I would say,
Speaker 1: we're broadly that people need friends. I guess for me,
Speaker 1: you know, some of my closest friends are guys, and
Speaker 1: both gay and straight men. That's just always been true
Speaker 1: in my life that I have a lot of friends
Speaker 1: who are women and a lot of friends who are men.
Speaker 1: You know, So for whatever reason, that hasn't been true
Speaker 1: for me so much that it's just been a kind
Speaker 1: of like mainly female group of people who are my
Speaker 1: support system. You know, I think that friends are critical.
Speaker 1: I mean this came up a lot during the Trump
Speaker 1: presidency when clearly he had a lot of acquaintances, but
Speaker 1: you never really had the sense of him having a
Speaker 1: lot of friends, and that in this way that was
Speaker 1: very um concerning. It was one of the things that
Speaker 1: made Trump feel very alien. I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people is that he seemed to have a lot of
Speaker 1: like business associates, but not people who work for him.
Speaker 1: I guess maybe I say girlfriends because for me personally,
Speaker 1: while I have men and women friends, men don't come
Speaker 1: to me unsolicited and say that was a bad move,
Speaker 1: that was the wrong thing you said. My women friends
Speaker 1: do that for me to trust women more when they
Speaker 1: say that, whereas men won't say that to you at all,
Speaker 1: or you if they did say it, you would be
Speaker 1: concerned about what their motives were. A man would say
Speaker 1: it to me if I asked him, but a woman
Speaker 1: would say it to me unsolicited because she risked putting
Speaker 1: herself out there. A real friend will risk hurting you,
Speaker 1: hurting your feelings, hurting their relationship with you by telling
Speaker 1: you the truth. I have that with women. I don't
Speaker 1: have that with men. I have a ton of men
Speaker 1: friends too. Apparently Amanda and I went on that score.
Speaker 1: Not that this group is competitive at all, but anyway,
Speaker 1: I don't think I have one group chat you know
Speaker 1: more than two people with men. Does anyone else I do? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I did too, Yeah, business or personal personal, Okay, I
Speaker 1: do not. I have a lot of one on one
Speaker 1: but no group kara. That is a thing. There's a
Speaker 1: whole idea of girlfriends and you know, someone we do
Speaker 1: talk about in our group, Cheryl Sandberg and a lot
Speaker 1: of the stuff like that. She used to have these
Speaker 1: dinners in Silicon Valley that we're all women that were
Speaker 1: at her house and they have a guest in and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And at the time, she was trying
Speaker 1: to prote the idea that there weren't networks of women
Speaker 1: and these these were work events because a lot of
Speaker 1: men have these work events naturally. Um, so she was
Speaker 1: trying to promote work events. What I have seen a
Speaker 1: lot more of is women doing more by themselves in
Speaker 1: a network point view, in helping each other at a
Speaker 1: network point view than ever before. That's something that's really shifted.
Speaker 1: I think a lot more that there's individualized networks of women.
Speaker 1: I think about and this isn't a good group chat,
Speaker 1: but like Melinda Gates and Mackenzie Scott and some mothers
Speaker 1: and lorn jobs are all giving money to women and
Speaker 1: venture capitalist for example, like right now because they want
Speaker 1: to promote a lot of different things whatever they're trying
Speaker 1: to do. That would be a pretty funny group chat,
Speaker 1: I know. And I just say care of when you
Speaker 1: were doing code and we were all there, we would
Speaker 1: have dinner that Hillary hosted, Yes exactly, I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: mention another. Yeah, and it was women and there's real
Speaker 1: bonding and I'm sorry it doesn't take place the same
Speaker 1: way with men. I do think men don't volunteer it
Speaker 1: because some men are, of course nervous to like, you know,
Speaker 1: there's very few men. Maybe Scott Galloway would tell you,
Speaker 1: for example, what he really think. Who does doesn't he
Speaker 1: but he's like a girlfriend, right. I think men feel
Speaker 1: nervous about saying something to you that would be helpful.
Speaker 1: You be nervous to do so. These days, I think
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways are not used to having
Speaker 1: that kind of friendship relationships. I think that tends to
Speaker 1: be harder, and then so you end up not confiding
Speaker 1: in them as much, I guess. And that's I think
Speaker 1: the very point, which is we all have an obligation
Speaker 1: in our profession to engage men, to be thoughtful, to
Speaker 1: be good colleague, to the extent that we're talking about
Speaker 1: feeding our own soul, we can have the obligation to
Speaker 1: figure out who feeds our soul, Like we don't have
Speaker 1: to raise up men to do that if we're not
Speaker 1: Amanda and have those you know, fuzzy men in our
Speaker 1: life already. So yes, of course there's you know, great
Speaker 1: men out there. But you know, I stretch to say
Speaker 1: that women have a different kind of communication when it's
Speaker 1: just women, and so a different kind of lived experience
Speaker 1: that women have, you know, so that there's certain kinds
Speaker 1: of things that are similar, both personally and I think professionally,
Speaker 1: Like there's certain bullshit that you deal with as a
Speaker 1: woman that other women also deal with and that you
Speaker 1: don't need to explain in that sense. I think it's
Speaker 1: you know, I feel like I look to women friends
Speaker 1: less to call me out than to have my back
Speaker 1: and to yeah, help me, help reassure me that I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I feel like I've spent a lot of time during
Speaker 1: this COVID pandemic in particular, just telling other women that
Speaker 1: they're having a hard time because the situation is really hard.
Speaker 1: People who are struggling with things like their kids, mental health,
Speaker 1: they're taking care of their parents and their kids simultaneously,
Speaker 1: and you know, trying to kind of do the impossible.
Speaker 1: And there's a way that having another woman tell you
Speaker 1: you're doing what you can, you're doing the right thing.
Speaker 1: I've got your back, Call me anytime you need to
Speaker 1: blow off steam like that, is that. I definitely see
Speaker 1: women helping each other out that way a lot. We'll
Speaker 1: be back after the break. The fact that we all
Speaker 1: know and have one another is a privilege, because, especially
Speaker 1: corporate America, over the last ten or fifteen years, you know,
Speaker 1: they sort of identified the importance of formal women's networks. However,
Speaker 1: for me, and I'm going to guess all of you
Speaker 1: here at sort of name your Fortune five company or
Speaker 1: bank and their women's networking events and their conferences, We've
Speaker 1: all attended them, spoke at them, drank their wine, eating
Speaker 1: their cheese, and that in and of itself has become
Speaker 1: sort of a cottage industry that unfortunately becomes a bit
Speaker 1: of a of a pink ghetto. Do you actually think
Speaker 1: that formal women's networking campaigns and events make more of
Speaker 1: a difference or actually connecting with individuals caring about them, Right,
Speaker 1: none of us work together per se. We can't directly,
Speaker 1: day in and day out, say ka, I'm gonna deliver
Speaker 1: this thing that's going to help advance you. Because when
Speaker 1: you were talking about these women's networking dinners, they often
Speaker 1: have formal takeaways and plans and then they tell you know,
Speaker 1: twenty three year old, once you find a sponsor and
Speaker 1: a mentor, that's your path. What we all have has
Speaker 1: nothing to do with a formal network, Kara, Right, No,
Speaker 1: I no, of course not. We can help each other.
Speaker 1: I was just talking to someone today in a group
Speaker 1: chat and they needed help meeting someone and this was
Speaker 1: a social one and I just said, I can do
Speaker 1: this for you, right, So, No, I think we spent
Speaker 1: a lot of time gossiping. Really we honestly do. Or
Speaker 1: there's news stories. We don't have to say what news stories.
Speaker 1: We like to like think when something happens, like usually
Speaker 1: Stephanie is like, oh my good God. Essentially she's like
Speaker 1: can you believe this? I mean I couldn't believe when
Speaker 1: Heidi Cruz got outed by her group chat when I
Speaker 1: think about who's on your group chat, Like, how would
Speaker 1: that even happen? Tammy? Yeah, And this is a person
Speaker 1: that doesn't have power doesn't have water, and the first
Speaker 1: thing they do is they're leaking Heidie cruises. And then
Speaker 1: who's the photographer that's taking pictures of our poor woman
Speaker 1: in her bikini with her kids on the beach. Honestly,
Speaker 1: TMC has resources everywhere. I think the question our group
Speaker 1: chet became who would drop a dime on everybody? And
Speaker 1: we think it's gift. It was believe I volunteered, and
Speaker 1: then we started to worry that we should kick you
Speaker 1: out or not. And then something about our group check
Speaker 1: got up on Twitter and there was a lot of comment.
Speaker 1: Here is the deal. If you pulled Idi CRUs I
Speaker 1: would totally drop a dime on you. Thank you. There
Speaker 1: you go. You cannot betray the group in with a
Speaker 1: behavior like that. I'm gonna take a step back those
Speaker 1: um and I'm gonna disagree a little bit with Stephanie
Speaker 1: on the whole idea of the pink ghetto, the groups
Speaker 1: that have formed around women's organizations, news organizations, et cetera,
Speaker 1: because at first I felt the way you did, and
Speaker 1: then I went to one. It was one of the
Speaker 1: Fortune Women's Dinners. Well those are very good, they are,
Speaker 1: And I was sitting with younger people, and I thought,
Speaker 1: you know what's really good about this. They get to see,
Speaker 1: you know, some of the more older and more successful women,
Speaker 1: and they can model behavior. I am a parent at heart,
Speaker 1: right and I feel like, and you guys are great
Speaker 1: with my kids. Even when Stephanie curses, was so much
Speaker 1: conviction that teaches my daughter when you curse, you really curse,
Speaker 1: and you gotta use your hands, you gotta make it count.
Speaker 1: Your daughter is so mild mannered compared to Stephanie exactly.
Speaker 1: It's a real opportunity for women to see how other
Speaker 1: women operate at a high level, and even at like
Speaker 1: Code is another example where you had Kara had I
Speaker 1: act like it. And it will never happen again. I'm
Speaker 1: sure it'll come back, and I'll look forward to Why
Speaker 1: was it so valuable Because you saw really successful people,
Speaker 1: You saw people in the middle, you saw people struggling,
Speaker 1: You saw journalists, and everyone was talking to each other
Speaker 1: and and even when they didn't want to write. I
Speaker 1: think that's true. I also think though, that the five
Speaker 1: of us have sort of a little bit of a
Speaker 1: non traditional career in that we don't depend on big
Speaker 1: corporations in that way, we don't have those kind of bosses,
Speaker 1: we sort of have each developed our own brand, our
Speaker 1: own actions, our own careers, and I think, and to
Speaker 1: be serious per second, I do think, Yeah, we gossip
Speaker 1: a lot, but I think there have been multiple times
Speaker 1: where we've relied on each other to figure out how
Speaker 1: to define that, what that means, What do we expect
Speaker 1: of ourselves? What are other people expect of us? And
Speaker 1: I think that similar to those kinds of sort of
Speaker 1: corporate outings, UM, where they have unique issues like how
Speaker 1: do I get to be from a you know, s
Speaker 1: VP into the C suite? We don't have that issue,
Speaker 1: but we have other issues right um, whether it's contracts
Speaker 1: or whether it's colleagues or whatever it is. And so
Speaker 1: I do think that this kind of judgment free support.
Speaker 1: Here's what I did, Here's who I talked to, Here's
Speaker 1: the experience I had. Let me introduce you to so
Speaker 1: and so. I think that's kind of invaluable. And I
Speaker 1: it is recreating, as Amanda said before, what men have
Speaker 1: done for centuries. And I don't think we should hide
Speaker 1: the fact that we do it. I think we should
Speaker 1: embrace it. Do you think we get judged more for
Speaker 1: being women? And I turned to Amanda. If we were
Speaker 1: all respective CEOs of different businesses and put all of
Speaker 1: us one another on each other's advisory boards, or picked
Speaker 1: one of us to be the banker for our next deal.
Speaker 1: That is the way corporate America has worked forever and
Speaker 1: ever and ever. Right, you can track certain guys and
Speaker 1: they have huge overlap and all the deals they've ever done,
Speaker 1: the boards they sit on together. Would there be a
Speaker 1: whole lot more scrutiny if it were the five of
Speaker 1: us doing that same thing. That's an interesting question. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think that that network does exist to some extent
Speaker 1: among women, but I think less so because women have
Speaker 1: less power. I know so many more women who are
Speaker 1: kind of stuck at the deputy level in whatever situation
Speaker 1: they're in. You know, I know a lot of women
Speaker 1: who are working to help each other handle that situation.
Speaker 1: But I think that there you have your situations where
Speaker 1: it's just a woman who's at the top of the
Speaker 1: pyramid and can therefore make alliances with other women at
Speaker 1: the top of the pyramid. You know, right now, there's
Speaker 1: a big generation of women who have been told that
Speaker 1: they can have whatever they want and they should be
Speaker 1: able to get there and you know, I know that
Speaker 1: in my own career, I've had moments where I've had
Speaker 1: to take a step back to realize that something about
Speaker 1: what's happening at work actually is sexism, like actually is
Speaker 1: you know, I had a situation happen once and a
Speaker 1: friend of mine who's very high level corporate lawyers, said,
Speaker 1: you know, what's happening is you're hitting the glass ceiling,
Speaker 1: and I just really was startled. You know, I sort
Speaker 1: of didn't think that that was something that would happen
Speaker 1: to me. And there are moments that you realize, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it can be less the glass ceiling than a
Speaker 1: discomfort with women being in charge, or you know this
Speaker 1: idea that men you know, what's been sort of found
Speaker 1: in studies is that men are hired on potential and
Speaker 1: women are hired on accomplishment. And you know this idea
Speaker 1: of the glass cliff or women are sent in to
Speaker 1: clean up other people's messes. Um so I think, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know whether there would be more scrutiny, but
Speaker 1: I that it would be a more unusual situation to have,
Speaker 1: like essentially the you know, see you on the golf links.
Speaker 1: You know, women women do that for each other, but
Speaker 1: in some ways without the benefit of as much power
Speaker 1: as men have on average. I don't. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think the answer to your question is one it would
Speaker 1: get more scrutiny, like if women did the same kind
Speaker 1: of insider back scratching and the life at that financial
Speaker 1: level would get more scrutiny. Now maybe for the oddity
Speaker 1: of it because it doesn't happen, but no question for
Speaker 1: the keeping us down. Look at Joanna Chole's She's one
Speaker 1: of how many women that have a spack this year
Speaker 1: or maybe more than one. She's gotten so much coverage.
Speaker 1: She's such a competent executive. She ran hers for a
Speaker 1: long time. But I think more these things are not
Speaker 1: more about like doing better at work. It's like bouncing
Speaker 1: ideas off of people. I think that's what's really helpful.
Speaker 1: And I think we would probably do it a lot
Speaker 1: more in person, although we all have really busy lives normally,
Speaker 1: and we don't see each other at events like we
Speaker 1: used to do or other get togethers and things like that,
Speaker 1: and so I think it sort of is a pressure.
Speaker 1: Valve to me is to like it makes me laugh.
Speaker 1: I just laugh when I like get these texts from
Speaker 1: you all, and you know, you go on and on,
Speaker 1: and so I think there is an element of that.
Speaker 1: And then if you need a really good piece of advice,
Speaker 1: bouncing off a couple of different people, because everyone has
Speaker 1: a different reaction, often at cross purposes. Hillary has a
Speaker 1: certain reaction, Tammy does, Amanda does, Dephanitely does. And then
Speaker 1: you can take a range of ideas or sometimes everyone
Speaker 1: coalesces around an idea. So it's super helpful, you know,
Speaker 1: to be able to share that. And I just want
Speaker 1: to ask, it was interesting to me when Amanda was
Speaker 1: talking about women sort of capping out at the deputy level,
Speaker 1: or this idea that sometimes we face sexism and don't
Speaker 1: even realize it. Hillary, when Time's Up was created and
Speaker 1: the work it's done over the last few years, how
Speaker 1: much of a game changer has it been compared to
Speaker 1: any other organized effort. I think it's it's change things
Speaker 1: on a couple of levels. There's no question that we're
Speaker 1: making progress in sexual harassment in terms of visibility. Call
Speaker 1: a political correctness if you want to, but you know,
Speaker 1: the idea that even Andrew Cuomo, you know, who was
Speaker 1: an untouchable guy, could be called out for what people
Speaker 1: perceived to be offensive behavior just a few years ago.
Speaker 1: I think is indicative of that now we have some
Speaker 1: work to do about putting sexual harassment in perspective versus,
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of the quality of what's worse
Speaker 1: than what's terrible, And we've all talked about that a
Speaker 1: lot in this group. But I think that just the
Speaker 1: resources available for women who feel like they have no
Speaker 1: place to go and no one is listening, I think
Speaker 1: is dramatically changed. I think Times of has dramatically changed.
Speaker 1: That there has never been resources before for people to
Speaker 1: go get lawyers and be our help, etcetera. So I
Speaker 1: think that conversation has changed. I think that business in particular,
Speaker 1: almost every company has now had a different level of
Speaker 1: engagement and training. And I think the other piece though,
Speaker 1: and the board of times I've just had this conversation,
Speaker 1: the sister that it created around the women who were
Speaker 1: involved continue to be involved and and have grown this
Speaker 1: organization in a way is immeasurable. And I think trying
Speaker 1: to think about how you promote the sisterhood in multiple
Speaker 1: places around the country so that people do feel support,
Speaker 1: you know, this is one of them. That's why I
Speaker 1: like you calling this podcast matters because people do need
Speaker 1: that sister who Men's appearance is different than women in
Speaker 1: almost every part of their life. It doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: men can't be good or can't relate, but giving women
Speaker 1: permission to have those moments of togetherness where they're finding
Speaker 1: shared values, where they're fighting for something they've all believed,
Speaker 1: I think is immeasurably important. And I do think times
Speaker 1: I've intributed to that. I didn't have a professional sisterhood
Speaker 1: in the early days of my career when I worked
Speaker 1: in banking, I was definitely a hyper competitive, sharp, elbowed
Speaker 1: solo operator and you're hurtful, you are active um and
Speaker 1: I actually think on a flat level, sure it resulted
Speaker 1: in success or compensation, but it didn't help my career.
Speaker 1: I actually think it hurt my career and my reputation. Kara,
Speaker 1: do you think you've always had a professional sisterhood. It
Speaker 1: wasn't until I was thirty, probably I realized the value
Speaker 1: of it. That's a good question. I don't. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't think of it that way. I guess I didn't.
Speaker 1: I just sort of, well, bowl does through everything, So
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. KR's like I was always just awesome.
Speaker 1: Let's just face it, it's a little easier to get
Speaker 1: Stephanie's inner, um Bush than it is to get cars
Speaker 1: inner mush. I don't know, I don't, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I was interesting because I was at the Washington Post
Speaker 1: for a lot for my early career, and I did
Speaker 1: notice that women at a harder time dealing with men,
Speaker 1: but for some reason, they had an easier time dealing
Speaker 1: with me because I was a lesbian. I don't know
Speaker 1: what it was, which is interesting when you're in like
Speaker 1: environments like Silicon Valley where it's like all men. It
Speaker 1: was an interesting situation in covering them because it's usually
Speaker 1: like pretty much your reality all the time, and the
Speaker 1: same thing with you, stephan when you're in banking or whatever.
Speaker 1: You have the same kind of groups, and so you
Speaker 1: get kind of used to dealing with that environment and
Speaker 1: then having to dominate it, actually having to figure out
Speaker 1: ways to actually dominate those people and get them, uh
Speaker 1: to bend your will essentially. Um. So you do learn
Speaker 1: kind of skills. One of the things that was uncomfortable
Speaker 1: for me, I remember, is when you're gay, for some reason,
Speaker 1: men think you're not a feminist, you know, and so
Speaker 1: I would be at some of these venture capital things
Speaker 1: or tech things and they'd be like, oh, she's a
Speaker 1: good looking right, And I'm like, but like, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, And I'm like, still a feminist over here,
Speaker 1: just f y. I I haven't experienced that, but I do.
Speaker 1: It's just me because I'm just trying to be willfully
Speaker 1: ignorant about the situation. I think there's something else. And
Speaker 1: you know, Aara and I've known each other since we
Speaker 1: were baby lesbians, like thirty five years ago or something
Speaker 1: like that, forty years ago. I think that the there's
Speaker 1: a little bit different when you're gay because you're sort
Speaker 1: of used to having a double life, at least in
Speaker 1: those days. I think it's very different now. But we
Speaker 1: did have a professional life and then we'd have a separate,
Speaker 1: entire circle of people we could be ourselves with. And
Speaker 1: I think that that is something actually that straight women
Speaker 1: have started to experience later now where it's okay, I
Speaker 1: do have this circle where I let my hair down with.
Speaker 1: I do have this group, and um, but I think
Speaker 1: for us, and I don't want to speak for you,
Speaker 1: but for me anyway, that was something I was always
Speaker 1: living with. Aman that's interesting I mean, I think that
Speaker 1: also when you don't need things, certain things from men,
Speaker 1: it's very liberating. So I mean, I like, this is
Speaker 1: the difference between my being a few years younger than
Speaker 1: you guys. So I came of age at a point
Speaker 1: when I never felt like my life was that ye
Speaker 1: for catered. Um, So I was gay, but I was work.
Speaker 1: It wasn't you know in my twenties. You know, that
Speaker 1: did help, I think to some extent. I also worked.
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting, Stephanie, you worked in such a
Speaker 1: male dominated industry in that period of your life too.
Speaker 1: I was working as a book adder, so I was
Speaker 1: in a industry that was almost entirely female with the
Speaker 1: scattering of guys. You know. Um, it was a very
Speaker 1: very different kind of composition. And I worked for you know,
Speaker 1: particularly badass woman actually in the main job I had
Speaker 1: in that field, So you know, I had I had
Speaker 1: a kind of different experience where right away there was
Speaker 1: a kind of network of women who looked out for
Speaker 1: each other and helped took each other up with things.
Speaker 1: You know, that idea of being a solo operator wasn't
Speaker 1: really that rewarding in that context. I think, well, has
Speaker 1: that sisterhood changed in media. Then I turned to you, Tammy,
Speaker 1: because I'll tell you when I left banking and I
Speaker 1: moved into media. I remember I just started at Bloomberg,
Speaker 1: and I was so excited to work with women and
Speaker 1: have these women girlfriends, and I was super gung ho,
Speaker 1: and absolutely nobody was buying what I was selling, like
Speaker 1: no one was looking to be friends with me. That
Speaker 1: might be the state of the industry now, but that's
Speaker 1: the past and going forward, yes, things can be competitive,
Speaker 1: but I don't think that's the future. What do you think, Timmy,
Speaker 1: I don't think it is the future. I mean, you
Speaker 1: used to have to kill each other to get on
Speaker 1: TV because there wasn't that much airtime. Now there's massive
Speaker 1: amounts of airtime, whether it's cable or network. And frankly,
Speaker 1: you're better off in cable than you are in network
Speaker 1: because you can't get on the air. I mean, look
Speaker 1: at ABC News. I mean when do you get on TV?
Speaker 1: I mean a great Good Morning America, this week world news,
Speaker 1: you can't get on there. But it's you know, this
Speaker 1: is very competitive, high level business. And by way, this
Speaker 1: is producers too. It's not just alant. You know, you
Speaker 1: want to win at the highest level. And the truth
Speaker 1: is that people are not going to stay in one
Speaker 1: of those four positions anymore. So they have to really
Speaker 1: find a way to work together and to figure it out. Now,
Speaker 1: think about when you moved over to NBC from the BERG,
Speaker 1: and they're definitely groups of women, and there's definitely this
Speaker 1: system that exists to try to help you, officially and
Speaker 1: unofficially because the NBC was really smart their talent relations people.
Speaker 1: I work with HBO. HBO has an entire talent field
Speaker 1: in addition to PR and everything else, because your success
Speaker 1: is their success, so it's not individual success anymore. So
Speaker 1: those kinds of things would never happen today. I give
Speaker 1: Hillary the last word. How much of a role does
Speaker 1: having this group chat girlfriends? How important is it in
Speaker 1: your life? Well, for me, it's everything, And now I've
Speaker 1: learned that it's not that big a deal for you guys,
Speaker 1: Like no, just not for Karen. Yeah, I don't I
Speaker 1: discount everything. Carra says emotions on air because even in
Speaker 1: this environment, Amanda's nodding. Even in this environment, she's got
Speaker 1: to play the tough guy. My my last word is
Speaker 1: you guys have my back. I have yours. There's nothing
Speaker 1: I wouldn't do for you, and I feel like there's
Speaker 1: nothing you wouldn't do for me. And there's just not
Speaker 1: a lot of people in my life that are that
Speaker 1: way that I have that experience with. And so thank
Speaker 1: you for getting me through this year. And I'm gonna
Speaker 1: kick Ka out of the group chat because I don't
Speaker 1: want to be dimed out for anything. Let me just
Speaker 1: tell you, if you did a cancoon, that would be
Speaker 1: that Let's call that a verb in this group. If
Speaker 1: you can coon, If you can coon, that's when you
Speaker 1: call your girlfriend and say I'm picking you up at
Speaker 1: the airport and you're gonna stay with me for a week.
Speaker 1: We don't have anyone here who would do a can
Speaker 1: because well, this goes two. Is Heidi Cruz publicly as
Speaker 1: accountable as her husband is than we we're just Heidi Cruz.
Speaker 1: Would that be a problem if she and her kids
Speaker 1: were going or is it only because it was Ted
Speaker 1: Cruise because he lied about it. I get the Ted
Speaker 1: Cruise problem, But this was Heidie's friend diming her out
Speaker 1: because Ted Cruz led about it and said it was
Speaker 1: another thing, and this proved that it wasn't. That's why. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But I still wouldn't dime out my girlfriend for her
Speaker 1: husband doing something terrible. I'd call her on the phone
Speaker 1: and be like, hey girl, I'm gonna pick you up
Speaker 1: and we're gonna have a drink, maybe even worse, and
Speaker 1: we're going to talk some truth here. But I would
Speaker 1: not dime out my girlfriend on my mom chat to
Speaker 1: the world. All Right, we're with you. We agree, we
Speaker 1: don't go to cancoon, Stephanie. That's all I gotta say. Okay,
Speaker 1: Luckily we're none of us are at risk of that.
Speaker 1: A group chat is a circle of trust, and if
Speaker 1: you cannot be trusted, yeah, all right, ladies, thank you
Speaker 1: so so much. I love you. I miss your faces.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to see you all and eat Hillary's food.
Speaker 1: We love you. Thank you, Stephanie. I'm Stephanie Rule, and
Speaker 1: you're listening to Modern Rules, a podcast from NBC Think,
Speaker 1: MSNBC and I Heart Radio. This podcast is hosted by
Speaker 1: Me Stephanie Rule. Mike Beet and Katrina Norvell are executive producers.
Speaker 1: Meredith Bennett Smith is Senior editor for NBC Think and
Speaker 1: our editorial lead. The podcast is engineered and edited by
Speaker 1: Josh Fisher. Additional production support provided by Charles Herman, Rachel Rosenbaum,
Speaker 1: and Lauren Wynn. Special thanks to Katherine kim Are, Global
Speaker 1: Head of Digital News right here at NBC News and MSNBC.
Speaker 1: For more thought provoking analysis, visit NBC news dot com
Speaker 1: slash thank