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Speaker 1: Today is International Women's Day. It is a day across

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Speaker 1: media organizations, publications talking about women, celebrating women, all the

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Speaker 1: great things about women. So I decided to bring together

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Speaker 1: some of my favorite women my actual group chat come

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Speaker 1: to life. I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor, NBC News Senior correspondent,

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Speaker 1: and this is Modern Rules, a podcast from NBC Think

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Speaker 1: and I heart Radio, and I just want to introduce

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Speaker 1: everyone to start. Hillary Rosen one of the most extraordinary

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Speaker 1: voices of influence in crisis management pr as well as

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Speaker 1: a CNN contributor Amanda Kats who was most recently with

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Speaker 1: CNN in their investigations team. She is currently the author

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Speaker 1: of an intriguing substack known as The Interpreter. I highly

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Speaker 1: recommend it. Tammy had Dad, veteran TV superstar from both

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Speaker 1: CNN and NBC. She is now a media consultant, and

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Speaker 1: Caris Wisha, host of not one but two podcasts, Sway

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Speaker 1: and Pivot. Thank you all so much for being here.

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Speaker 1: You are my group chat. I as a rule do

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Speaker 1: not have group chats. I find them to be too risky,

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Speaker 1: too dangerous, because I don't necessarily trust or no everyone

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Speaker 1: on it. As Heidi Cruz learned from hers, But I

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Speaker 1: want to talk to you all about how important it

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Speaker 1: is in life as women, professional women to have sort

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Speaker 1: of this not official women's network, but to have real

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Speaker 1: women friends. Hillary, I turned to you first. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think it's in a in a way, it's everything

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Speaker 1: right because, particularly this past year, I've noticed that Amanda's

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Speaker 1: actually written about this. I noticed that there's so many

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Speaker 1: moments where, you know, I lived inside my head because

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Speaker 1: I was isolated and I wasn't in my regular life,

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Speaker 1: and having the outlet of you know, the five of

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Speaker 1: you to to talk to on the phone, on you know,

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Speaker 1: on chat it, I actually don't know that I could

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Speaker 1: have gotten through this year without you guys. Um that

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Speaker 1: just amplifies everything that I've experienced in my professional life.

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Speaker 1: This year was sort of the culmination of that, Amanda.

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Speaker 1: When we hear people talk about girlfriends, they often think

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Speaker 1: like a coffee clutch, a mom's group, gossiping. But how

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Speaker 1: much of an impact does it have on your life

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Speaker 1: professionally to have this group of brutally honest women who

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Speaker 1: also love and care about your success professionally. That's a

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Speaker 1: good question. I think that you guys actually are kinder

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Speaker 1: than you are, brutally honest, I don't feel like the

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Speaker 1: function of the group chat is to, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: truly call you out, except when it comes to my

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Speaker 1: love life. Your guys are all brutally to me. It's

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Speaker 1: been very, very welcome. I mean, as as Hillary was

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Speaker 1: just saying, this has been a really challenging year, I

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Speaker 1: think in terms of lack of access to friends. For me,

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Speaker 1: I compounded that by moving to a new city right

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Speaker 1: at the start of the pandem make I also have

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Speaker 1: a small baby. Last summer, I left my job that

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Speaker 1: I've been in for several years, and the combination of

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Speaker 1: those things has made it more important than ever to

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Speaker 1: have these kinds of connections. You know, I will say, like,

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Speaker 1: when I hear the word girlfriends, of course, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think of something a little more romantic, just because

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Speaker 1: of where I'm coming from, and you know, my other

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Speaker 1: group chats are pretty co ed. Actually, this is I

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Speaker 1: think the only one that I can think of that's

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Speaker 1: all women. But there's something about women who are really

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Speaker 1: looking out for each other and have each other's best

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Speaker 1: interests at heart, and also have a sense of humor,

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Speaker 1: also are there to debate and discuss and gossip and

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Speaker 1: can move from the light to the serious seamlessly. I

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Speaker 1: think that is such an important thing right now, and

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Speaker 1: especially when I'm not seeing those people in person, as

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Speaker 1: I haven't for the last year, you know, with a

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Speaker 1: few exceptions, it's felt really critical to have that outlet

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Speaker 1: Tammy talk about what a change we've seen. Think about

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Speaker 1: the beginning of your career. I remember, for me, when

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Speaker 1: I started in investment banking, there was no women's mafia.

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Speaker 1: In fact, there were so few women. It was much

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Speaker 1: more like I had to scratch and climb my way here.

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Speaker 1: You know, good luck you you find your way on

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Speaker 1: your own. It has changed so much at this point

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Speaker 1: that if you're not a woman who stands with other women,

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Speaker 1: you're the outsider. Yeah, I do think that's changed. And

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Speaker 1: just even having that many women in the room. But

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Speaker 1: you know, this is all very lofty talk. I miss

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Speaker 1: seeing all of you and the horrified look on your

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Speaker 1: face when we talk about someone or something. This is

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Speaker 1: so great that we can see each other, Stephanie, because

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Speaker 1: this is what we're missing in real life, Like did

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Speaker 1: that person actually do that? Did this person that I've

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Speaker 1: worked with for twenty years actually say that McCall has

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Speaker 1: everyone gone crazy? Has this pandemic really tipped us over?

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Speaker 1: And it's such a reminder that just being able to

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Speaker 1: tell your friends about it and bounce it off them

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Speaker 1: and think about things a different way. You know, I

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Speaker 1: think people are interested in other opinions and look at

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Speaker 1: all of us here, even though you guys are usually

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Speaker 1: wrong and I am right, sure, okay, whatever. I just

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Speaker 1: like the visceral sharing of all the good and all

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Speaker 1: the bad, and to be able to run things by

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Speaker 1: my friends to make sure I haven't gone start breading

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Speaker 1: man care For someone who doesn't know you, they might

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Speaker 1: not know that you have an informal women's network, a

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Speaker 1: mafia behind you that stands behind you, that talks you

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Speaker 1: through things. I mean, you're a very outspoken, independent person,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not sure an outsider would know. You've got

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Speaker 1: a group chat chatting you up every day. Yes, I do,

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Speaker 1: but I have a lot of group chats that you

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Speaker 1: don't know about, and they're started. I actually do. I

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Speaker 1: have very different group chats for different things, and so um,

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Speaker 1: I think it's important to have to. I have it.

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Speaker 1: Like when something happens and you want a quick reaction,

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Speaker 1: depending so I'm really interested in this idea of how

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Speaker 1: through the pandemic, like this idea of what will stick

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Speaker 1: and what won't. But this idea of reaching out to

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Speaker 1: people that is an analog which has been happening past

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Speaker 1: two decades. But where does it evolve too? So you

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Speaker 1: see like the Clubhouse, which is I think I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out what's right about it. And actually this

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Speaker 1: idea of being alone and then being able to reach

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Speaker 1: out and just listen to people talk. It's not unlike

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Speaker 1: talk radio, it's not unlike group chats or something like

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Speaker 1: that is a really interesting one. And so I think

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Speaker 1: text plays into that because you can do them quickly.

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Speaker 1: It's not Twitter, where you just have nine people responding

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Speaker 1: to you. But I don't I don't think that's what

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Speaker 1: this is. I mean, all of that's performative. You don't

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Speaker 1: below Clubhouse and people on most of it on Twitter,

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Speaker 1: they're all they're all speaking to an audience that they're

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Speaker 1: not selecting, that they're you know, they're trying to present

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Speaker 1: themselves to the world. And I do think despite Kara's

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Speaker 1: desperate desire never to need anyone or demonstrate that no

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Speaker 1: person that she's talking to is the most important person

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Speaker 1: in her life, which is why she dishes us even

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Speaker 1: into our face. The group shout that we have and

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Speaker 1: you know, we obviously all have other friends, but there's

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Speaker 1: something about dear friends and take who will call you

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Speaker 1: on your who will hold up a mirror while they

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Speaker 1: still are the most supportive people in the world and

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Speaker 1: rooting for your success. And I think that you hear

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Speaker 1: it differently, like we're all, you know, public people, and

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Speaker 1: we're all subject to criticism, and I think when you

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Speaker 1: hear critique and engagement from somebody really trust, like I

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Speaker 1: trust you, guys. I listened to it differently, and I

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Speaker 1: think that that's a hallmark really of kind of the connection.

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Speaker 1: What's funny that we should tell more about our groups, Stephanie.

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Speaker 1: We'll text each other people were respond and then it

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Speaker 1: gets to the point that somebody calls someone else and

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Speaker 1: then we're all on the phone, right, correct, that's the

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Speaker 1: tipping point that you have to get the person on

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Speaker 1: the phone, but all of a sudden, we're like, what

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Speaker 1: did you just say? Yeah, it's usually for clarification of

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Speaker 1: extremely offensive content, which is always from you. I haven't

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Speaker 1: slightly offensive maybe unpopular opinion, but I do. It's a

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Speaker 1: red flag for me in terms of never trust a

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Speaker 1: woman who doesn't have girlfriends, because I think who you

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Speaker 1: surround yourself, your girlfriends do make you better and smarter.

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Speaker 1: Is that, in your opinion, Amanda? An important thing, especially

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Speaker 1: when when it goes directly back to what Hillary was saying.

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Speaker 1: When you think about people's public actions or hubrisk, it

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Speaker 1: often makes me think, where's that person's girlfriend, Where's their mother,

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Speaker 1: where's their sister? Where someone shaking them saying this is

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Speaker 1: a terrible move? What are you thinking? I would say,

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Speaker 1: we're broadly that people need friends. I guess for me,

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Speaker 1: you know, some of my closest friends are guys, and

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Speaker 1: both gay and straight men. That's just always been true

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Speaker 1: in my life that I have a lot of friends

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Speaker 1: who are women and a lot of friends who are men.

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Speaker 1: You know, So for whatever reason, that hasn't been true

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Speaker 1: for me so much that it's just been a kind

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Speaker 1: of like mainly female group of people who are my

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Speaker 1: support system. You know, I think that friends are critical.

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Speaker 1: I mean this came up a lot during the Trump

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Speaker 1: presidency when clearly he had a lot of acquaintances, but

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Speaker 1: you never really had the sense of him having a

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Speaker 1: lot of friends, and that in this way that was

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Speaker 1: very um concerning. It was one of the things that

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Speaker 1: made Trump feel very alien. I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people is that he seemed to have a lot of

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Speaker 1: like business associates, but not people who work for him.

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Speaker 1: I guess maybe I say girlfriends because for me personally,

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Speaker 1: while I have men and women friends, men don't come

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Speaker 1: to me unsolicited and say that was a bad move,

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Speaker 1: that was the wrong thing you said. My women friends

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Speaker 1: do that for me to trust women more when they

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Speaker 1: say that, whereas men won't say that to you at all,

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Speaker 1: or you if they did say it, you would be

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Speaker 1: concerned about what their motives were. A man would say

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Speaker 1: it to me if I asked him, but a woman

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Speaker 1: would say it to me unsolicited because she risked putting

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Speaker 1: herself out there. A real friend will risk hurting you,

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Speaker 1: hurting your feelings, hurting their relationship with you by telling

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Speaker 1: you the truth. I have that with women. I don't

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Speaker 1: have that with men. I have a ton of men

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Speaker 1: friends too. Apparently Amanda and I went on that score.

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Speaker 1: Not that this group is competitive at all, but anyway,

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Speaker 1: I don't think I have one group chat you know

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Speaker 1: more than two people with men. Does anyone else I do? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I did too, Yeah, business or personal personal, Okay, I

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Speaker 1: do not. I have a lot of one on one

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Speaker 1: but no group kara. That is a thing. There's a

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Speaker 1: whole idea of girlfriends and you know, someone we do

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Speaker 1: talk about in our group, Cheryl Sandberg and a lot

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Speaker 1: of the stuff like that. She used to have these

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Speaker 1: dinners in Silicon Valley that we're all women that were

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Speaker 1: at her house and they have a guest in and

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Speaker 1: stuff like that. And at the time, she was trying

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Speaker 1: to prote the idea that there weren't networks of women

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Speaker 1: and these these were work events because a lot of

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Speaker 1: men have these work events naturally. Um, so she was

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Speaker 1: trying to promote work events. What I have seen a

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Speaker 1: lot more of is women doing more by themselves in

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Speaker 1: a network point view, in helping each other at a

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Speaker 1: network point view than ever before. That's something that's really shifted.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot more that there's individualized networks of women.

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Speaker 1: I think about and this isn't a good group chat,

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Speaker 1: but like Melinda Gates and Mackenzie Scott and some mothers

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Speaker 1: and lorn jobs are all giving money to women and

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Speaker 1: venture capitalist for example, like right now because they want

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Speaker 1: to promote a lot of different things whatever they're trying

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Speaker 1: to do. That would be a pretty funny group chat,

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Speaker 1: I know. And I just say care of when you

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Speaker 1: were doing code and we were all there, we would

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Speaker 1: have dinner that Hillary hosted, Yes exactly, I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: mention another. Yeah, and it was women and there's real

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Speaker 1: bonding and I'm sorry it doesn't take place the same

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Speaker 1: way with men. I do think men don't volunteer it

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Speaker 1: because some men are, of course nervous to like, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's very few men. Maybe Scott Galloway would tell you,

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Speaker 1: for example, what he really think. Who does doesn't he

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Speaker 1: but he's like a girlfriend, right. I think men feel

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Speaker 1: nervous about saying something to you that would be helpful.

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Speaker 1: You be nervous to do so. These days, I think

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways are not used to having

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Speaker 1: that kind of friendship relationships. I think that tends to

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Speaker 1: be harder, and then so you end up not confiding

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Speaker 1: in them as much, I guess. And that's I think

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Speaker 1: the very point, which is we all have an obligation

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Speaker 1: in our profession to engage men, to be thoughtful, to

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Speaker 1: be good colleague, to the extent that we're talking about

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Speaker 1: feeding our own soul, we can have the obligation to

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Speaker 1: figure out who feeds our soul, Like we don't have

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Speaker 1: to raise up men to do that if we're not

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Speaker 1: Amanda and have those you know, fuzzy men in our

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Speaker 1: life already. So yes, of course there's you know, great

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Speaker 1: men out there. But you know, I stretch to say

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Speaker 1: that women have a different kind of communication when it's

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Speaker 1: just women, and so a different kind of lived experience

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Speaker 1: that women have, you know, so that there's certain kinds

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Speaker 1: of things that are similar, both personally and I think professionally,

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Speaker 1: Like there's certain bullshit that you deal with as a

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Speaker 1: woman that other women also deal with and that you

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Speaker 1: don't need to explain in that sense. I think it's

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Speaker 1: you know, I feel like I look to women friends

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Speaker 1: less to call me out than to have my back

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Speaker 1: and to yeah, help me, help reassure me that I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I've spent a lot of time during

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Speaker 1: this COVID pandemic in particular, just telling other women that

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Speaker 1: they're having a hard time because the situation is really hard.

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Speaker 1: People who are struggling with things like their kids, mental health,

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Speaker 1: they're taking care of their parents and their kids simultaneously,

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Speaker 1: and you know, trying to kind of do the impossible.

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Speaker 1: And there's a way that having another woman tell you

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Speaker 1: you're doing what you can, you're doing the right thing.

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Speaker 1: I've got your back, Call me anytime you need to

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Speaker 1: blow off steam like that, is that. I definitely see

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Speaker 1: women helping each other out that way a lot. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back after the break. The fact that we all

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Speaker 1: know and have one another is a privilege, because, especially

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Speaker 1: corporate America, over the last ten or fifteen years, you know,

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Speaker 1: they sort of identified the importance of formal women's networks. However,

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Speaker 1: for me, and I'm going to guess all of you

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Speaker 1: here at sort of name your Fortune five company or

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Speaker 1: bank and their women's networking events and their conferences, We've

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Speaker 1: all attended them, spoke at them, drank their wine, eating

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Speaker 1: their cheese, and that in and of itself has become

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Speaker 1: sort of a cottage industry that unfortunately becomes a bit

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Speaker 1: of a of a pink ghetto. Do you actually think

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Speaker 1: that formal women's networking campaigns and events make more of

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Speaker 1: a difference or actually connecting with individuals caring about them, Right,

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Speaker 1: none of us work together per se. We can't directly,

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Speaker 1: day in and day out, say ka, I'm gonna deliver

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Speaker 1: this thing that's going to help advance you. Because when

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Speaker 1: you were talking about these women's networking dinners, they often

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Speaker 1: have formal takeaways and plans and then they tell you know,

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Speaker 1: twenty three year old, once you find a sponsor and

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Speaker 1: a mentor, that's your path. What we all have has

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with a formal network, Kara, Right, No,

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Speaker 1: I no, of course not. We can help each other.

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Speaker 1: I was just talking to someone today in a group

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Speaker 1: chat and they needed help meeting someone and this was

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Speaker 1: a social one and I just said, I can do

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Speaker 1: this for you, right, So, No, I think we spent

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Speaker 1: a lot of time gossiping. Really we honestly do. Or

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Speaker 1: there's news stories. We don't have to say what news stories.

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Speaker 1: We like to like think when something happens, like usually

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Speaker 1: Stephanie is like, oh my good God. Essentially she's like

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Speaker 1: can you believe this? I mean I couldn't believe when

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Speaker 1: Heidi Cruz got outed by her group chat when I

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Speaker 1: think about who's on your group chat, Like, how would

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Speaker 1: that even happen? Tammy? Yeah, And this is a person

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Speaker 1: that doesn't have power doesn't have water, and the first

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Speaker 1: thing they do is they're leaking Heidie cruises. And then

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Speaker 1: who's the photographer that's taking pictures of our poor woman

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Speaker 1: in her bikini with her kids on the beach. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: TMC has resources everywhere. I think the question our group

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Speaker 1: chet became who would drop a dime on everybody? And

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Speaker 1: we think it's gift. It was believe I volunteered, and

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Speaker 1: then we started to worry that we should kick you

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Speaker 1: out or not. And then something about our group check

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Speaker 1: got up on Twitter and there was a lot of comment.

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Speaker 1: Here is the deal. If you pulled Idi CRUs I

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Speaker 1: would totally drop a dime on you. Thank you. There

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Speaker 1: you go. You cannot betray the group in with a

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Speaker 1: behavior like that. I'm gonna take a step back those

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Speaker 1: um and I'm gonna disagree a little bit with Stephanie

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Speaker 1: on the whole idea of the pink ghetto, the groups

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Speaker 1: that have formed around women's organizations, news organizations, et cetera,

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Speaker 1: because at first I felt the way you did, and

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Speaker 1: then I went to one. It was one of the

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Speaker 1: Fortune Women's Dinners. Well those are very good, they are,

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Speaker 1: And I was sitting with younger people, and I thought,

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Speaker 1: you know what's really good about this. They get to see,

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Speaker 1: you know, some of the more older and more successful women,

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Speaker 1: and they can model behavior. I am a parent at heart,

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Speaker 1: right and I feel like, and you guys are great

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Speaker 1: with my kids. Even when Stephanie curses, was so much

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Speaker 1: conviction that teaches my daughter when you curse, you really curse,

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Speaker 1: and you gotta use your hands, you gotta make it count.

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Speaker 1: Your daughter is so mild mannered compared to Stephanie exactly.

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Speaker 1: It's a real opportunity for women to see how other

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Speaker 1: women operate at a high level, and even at like

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Speaker 1: Code is another example where you had Kara had I

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Speaker 1: act like it. And it will never happen again. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure it'll come back, and I'll look forward to Why

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Speaker 1: was it so valuable Because you saw really successful people,

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Speaker 1: You saw people in the middle, you saw people struggling,

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Speaker 1: You saw journalists, and everyone was talking to each other

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Speaker 1: and and even when they didn't want to write. I

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Speaker 1: think that's true. I also think though, that the five

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Speaker 1: of us have sort of a little bit of a

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Speaker 1: non traditional career in that we don't depend on big

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Speaker 1: corporations in that way, we don't have those kind of bosses,

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Speaker 1: we sort of have each developed our own brand, our

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Speaker 1: own actions, our own careers, and I think, and to

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Speaker 1: be serious per second, I do think, Yeah, we gossip

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Speaker 1: a lot, but I think there have been multiple times

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Speaker 1: where we've relied on each other to figure out how

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Speaker 1: to define that, what that means, What do we expect

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Speaker 1: of ourselves? What are other people expect of us? And

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Speaker 1: I think that similar to those kinds of sort of

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Speaker 1: corporate outings, UM, where they have unique issues like how

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Speaker 1: do I get to be from a you know, s

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Speaker 1: VP into the C suite? We don't have that issue,

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Speaker 1: but we have other issues right um, whether it's contracts

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Speaker 1: or whether it's colleagues or whatever it is. And so

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Speaker 1: I do think that this kind of judgment free support.

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Speaker 1: Here's what I did, Here's who I talked to, Here's

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Speaker 1: the experience I had. Let me introduce you to so

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Speaker 1: and so. I think that's kind of invaluable. And I

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Speaker 1: it is recreating, as Amanda said before, what men have

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Speaker 1: done for centuries. And I don't think we should hide

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Speaker 1: the fact that we do it. I think we should

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Speaker 1: embrace it. Do you think we get judged more for

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Speaker 1: being women? And I turned to Amanda. If we were

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Speaker 1: all respective CEOs of different businesses and put all of

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Speaker 1: us one another on each other's advisory boards, or picked

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Speaker 1: one of us to be the banker for our next deal.

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Speaker 1: That is the way corporate America has worked forever and

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Speaker 1: ever and ever. Right, you can track certain guys and

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Speaker 1: they have huge overlap and all the deals they've ever done,

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Speaker 1: the boards they sit on together. Would there be a

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Speaker 1: whole lot more scrutiny if it were the five of

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Speaker 1: us doing that same thing. That's an interesting question. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think that that network does exist to some extent

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Speaker 1: among women, but I think less so because women have

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Speaker 1: less power. I know so many more women who are

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Speaker 1: kind of stuck at the deputy level in whatever situation

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Speaker 1: they're in. You know, I know a lot of women

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Speaker 1: who are working to help each other handle that situation.

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Speaker 1: But I think that there you have your situations where

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Speaker 1: it's just a woman who's at the top of the

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Speaker 1: pyramid and can therefore make alliances with other women at

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Speaker 1: the top of the pyramid. You know, right now, there's

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Speaker 1: a big generation of women who have been told that

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Speaker 1: they can have whatever they want and they should be

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Speaker 1: able to get there and you know, I know that

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Speaker 1: in my own career, I've had moments where I've had

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Speaker 1: to take a step back to realize that something about

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Speaker 1: what's happening at work actually is sexism, like actually is

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Speaker 1: you know, I had a situation happen once and a

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Speaker 1: friend of mine who's very high level corporate lawyers, said,

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Speaker 1: you know, what's happening is you're hitting the glass ceiling,

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Speaker 1: and I just really was startled. You know, I sort

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Speaker 1: of didn't think that that was something that would happen

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Speaker 1: to me. And there are moments that you realize, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it can be less the glass ceiling than a

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Speaker 1: discomfort with women being in charge, or you know this

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Speaker 1: idea that men you know, what's been sort of found

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Speaker 1: in studies is that men are hired on potential and

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Speaker 1: women are hired on accomplishment. And you know this idea

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Speaker 1: of the glass cliff or women are sent in to

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Speaker 1: clean up other people's messes. Um so I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know whether there would be more scrutiny, but

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Speaker 1: I that it would be a more unusual situation to have,

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Speaker 1: like essentially the you know, see you on the golf links.

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Speaker 1: You know, women women do that for each other, but

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Speaker 1: in some ways without the benefit of as much power

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Speaker 1: as men have on average. I don't. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think the answer to your question is one it would

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Speaker 1: get more scrutiny, like if women did the same kind

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Speaker 1: of insider back scratching and the life at that financial

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Speaker 1: level would get more scrutiny. Now maybe for the oddity

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Speaker 1: of it because it doesn't happen, but no question for

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Speaker 1: the keeping us down. Look at Joanna Chole's She's one

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Speaker 1: of how many women that have a spack this year

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Speaker 1: or maybe more than one. She's gotten so much coverage.

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Speaker 1: She's such a competent executive. She ran hers for a

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Speaker 1: long time. But I think more these things are not

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Speaker 1: more about like doing better at work. It's like bouncing

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Speaker 1: ideas off of people. I think that's what's really helpful.

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Speaker 1: And I think we would probably do it a lot

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Speaker 1: more in person, although we all have really busy lives normally,

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Speaker 1: and we don't see each other at events like we

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Speaker 1: used to do or other get togethers and things like that,

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Speaker 1: and so I think it sort of is a pressure.

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Speaker 1: Valve to me is to like it makes me laugh.

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Speaker 1: I just laugh when I like get these texts from

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Speaker 1: you all, and you know, you go on and on,

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Speaker 1: and so I think there is an element of that.

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Speaker 1: And then if you need a really good piece of advice,

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Speaker 1: bouncing off a couple of different people, because everyone has

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Speaker 1: a different reaction, often at cross purposes. Hillary has a

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Speaker 1: certain reaction, Tammy does, Amanda does, Dephanitely does. And then

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00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,879
Speaker 1: you can take a range of ideas or sometimes everyone

430
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 1: coalesces around an idea. So it's super helpful, you know,

431
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 1: to be able to share that. And I just want

432
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 1: to ask, it was interesting to me when Amanda was

433
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 1: talking about women sort of capping out at the deputy level,

434
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 1: or this idea that sometimes we face sexism and don't

435
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 1: even realize it. Hillary, when Time's Up was created and

436
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 1: the work it's done over the last few years, how

437
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 1: much of a game changer has it been compared to

438
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 1: any other organized effort. I think it's it's change things

439
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 1: on a couple of levels. There's no question that we're

440
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 1: making progress in sexual harassment in terms of visibility. Call

441
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,719
Speaker 1: a political correctness if you want to, but you know,

442
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 1: the idea that even Andrew Cuomo, you know, who was

443
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 1: an untouchable guy, could be called out for what people

444
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,640
Speaker 1: perceived to be offensive behavior just a few years ago.

445
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 1: I think is indicative of that now we have some

446
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:31,879
Speaker 1: work to do about putting sexual harassment in perspective versus,

447
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of the quality of what's worse

448
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 1: than what's terrible, And we've all talked about that a

449
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 1: lot in this group. But I think that just the

450
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 1: resources available for women who feel like they have no

451
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: place to go and no one is listening, I think

452
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,120
Speaker 1: is dramatically changed. I think Times of has dramatically changed.

453
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 1: That there has never been resources before for people to

454
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 1: go get lawyers and be our help, etcetera. So I

455
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: think that conversation has changed. I think that business in particular,

456
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 1: almost every company has now had a different level of

457
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 1: engagement and training. And I think the other piece though,

458
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: and the board of times I've just had this conversation,

459
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 1: the sister that it created around the women who were

460
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 1: involved continue to be involved and and have grown this

461
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: organization in a way is immeasurable. And I think trying

462
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 1: to think about how you promote the sisterhood in multiple

463
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: places around the country so that people do feel support,

464
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 1: you know, this is one of them. That's why I

465
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:37,120
Speaker 1: like you calling this podcast matters because people do need

466
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 1: that sister who Men's appearance is different than women in

467
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: almost every part of their life. It doesn't mean that

468
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: men can't be good or can't relate, but giving women

469
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 1: permission to have those moments of togetherness where they're finding

470
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,959
Speaker 1: shared values, where they're fighting for something they've all believed,

471
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: I think is immeasurably important. And I do think times

472
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 1: I've intributed to that. I didn't have a professional sisterhood

473
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: in the early days of my career when I worked

474
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: in banking, I was definitely a hyper competitive, sharp, elbowed

475
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:12,679
Speaker 1: solo operator and you're hurtful, you are active um and

476
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: I actually think on a flat level, sure it resulted

477
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: in success or compensation, but it didn't help my career.

478
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 1: I actually think it hurt my career and my reputation. Kara,

479
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: do you think you've always had a professional sisterhood. It

480
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 1: wasn't until I was thirty, probably I realized the value

481
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: of it. That's a good question. I don't. I don't know.

482
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 1: I don't think of it that way. I guess I didn't.

483
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 1: I just sort of, well, bowl does through everything, So

484
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. KR's like I was always just awesome.

485
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: Let's just face it, it's a little easier to get

486
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 1: Stephanie's inner, um Bush than it is to get cars

487
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,959
Speaker 1: inner mush. I don't know, I don't, I don't know.

488
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: I was interesting because I was at the Washington Post

489
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 1: for a lot for my early career, and I did

490
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: notice that women at a harder time dealing with men,

491
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: but for some reason, they had an easier time dealing

492
00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 1: with me because I was a lesbian. I don't know

493
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: what it was, which is interesting when you're in like

494
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,199
Speaker 1: environments like Silicon Valley where it's like all men. It

495
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 1: was an interesting situation in covering them because it's usually

496
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 1: like pretty much your reality all the time, and the

497
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: same thing with you, stephan when you're in banking or whatever.

498
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: You have the same kind of groups, and so you

499
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 1: get kind of used to dealing with that environment and

500
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: then having to dominate it, actually having to figure out

501
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 1: ways to actually dominate those people and get them, uh

502
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: to bend your will essentially. Um. So you do learn

503
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: kind of skills. One of the things that was uncomfortable

504
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: for me, I remember, is when you're gay, for some reason,

505
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,479
Speaker 1: men think you're not a feminist, you know, and so

506
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: I would be at some of these venture capital things

507
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: or tech things and they'd be like, oh, she's a

508
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 1: good looking right, And I'm like, but like, you know

509
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 1: what I mean, And I'm like, still a feminist over here,

510
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,160
Speaker 1: just f y. I I haven't experienced that, but I do.

511
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 1: It's just me because I'm just trying to be willfully

512
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: ignorant about the situation. I think there's something else. And

513
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: you know, Aara and I've known each other since we

514
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: were baby lesbians, like thirty five years ago or something

515
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: like that, forty years ago. I think that the there's

516
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 1: a little bit different when you're gay because you're sort

517
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 1: of used to having a double life, at least in

518
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: those days. I think it's very different now. But we

519
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 1: did have a professional life and then we'd have a separate,

520
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: entire circle of people we could be ourselves with. And

521
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: I think that that is something actually that straight women

522
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: have started to experience later now where it's okay, I

523
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 1: do have this circle where I let my hair down with.

524
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: I do have this group, and um, but I think

525
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: for us, and I don't want to speak for you,

526
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: but for me anyway, that was something I was always

527
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 1: living with. Aman that's interesting I mean, I think that

528
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: also when you don't need things, certain things from men,

529
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: it's very liberating. So I mean, I like, this is

530
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 1: the difference between my being a few years younger than

531
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 1: you guys. So I came of age at a point

532
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: when I never felt like my life was that ye

533
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 1: for catered. Um, So I was gay, but I was work.

534
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: It wasn't you know in my twenties. You know, that

535
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 1: did help, I think to some extent. I also worked.

536
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting, Stephanie, you worked in such a

537
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: male dominated industry in that period of your life too.

538
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: I was working as a book adder, so I was

539
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: in a industry that was almost entirely female with the

540
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,199
Speaker 1: scattering of guys. You know. Um, it was a very

541
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: very different kind of composition. And I worked for you know,

542
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: particularly badass woman actually in the main job I had

543
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 1: in that field, So you know, I had I had

544
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: a kind of different experience where right away there was

545
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: a kind of network of women who looked out for

546
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 1: each other and helped took each other up with things.

547
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: You know, that idea of being a solo operator wasn't

548
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: really that rewarding in that context. I think, well, has

549
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: that sisterhood changed in media. Then I turned to you, Tammy,

550
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: because I'll tell you when I left banking and I

551
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: moved into media. I remember I just started at Bloomberg,

552
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: and I was so excited to work with women and

553
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: have these women girlfriends, and I was super gung ho,

554
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: and absolutely nobody was buying what I was selling, like

555
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: no one was looking to be friends with me. That

556
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: might be the state of the industry now, but that's

557
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: the past and going forward, yes, things can be competitive,

558
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: but I don't think that's the future. What do you think, Timmy,

559
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: I don't think it is the future. I mean, you

560
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: used to have to kill each other to get on

561
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: TV because there wasn't that much airtime. Now there's massive

562
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 1: amounts of airtime, whether it's cable or network. And frankly,

563
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: you're better off in cable than you are in network

564
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: because you can't get on the air. I mean, look

565
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: at ABC News. I mean when do you get on TV?

566
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: I mean a great Good Morning America, this week world news,

567
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: you can't get on there. But it's you know, this

568
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: is very competitive, high level business. And by way, this

569
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: is producers too. It's not just alant. You know, you

570
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: want to win at the highest level. And the truth

571
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: is that people are not going to stay in one

572
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: of those four positions anymore. So they have to really

573
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: find a way to work together and to figure it out. Now,

574
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: think about when you moved over to NBC from the BERG,

575
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: and they're definitely groups of women, and there's definitely this

576
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: system that exists to try to help you, officially and

577
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: unofficially because the NBC was really smart their talent relations people.

578
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: I work with HBO. HBO has an entire talent field

579
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: in addition to PR and everything else, because your success

580
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: is their success, so it's not individual success anymore. So

581
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: those kinds of things would never happen today. I give

582
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: Hillary the last word. How much of a role does

583
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: having this group chat girlfriends? How important is it in

584
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: your life? Well, for me, it's everything, And now I've

585
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: learned that it's not that big a deal for you guys,

586
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: Like no, just not for Karen. Yeah, I don't I

587
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: discount everything. Carra says emotions on air because even in

588
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: this environment, Amanda's nodding. Even in this environment, she's got

589
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: to play the tough guy. My my last word is

590
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: you guys have my back. I have yours. There's nothing

591
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: I wouldn't do for you, and I feel like there's

592
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: nothing you wouldn't do for me. And there's just not

593
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: a lot of people in my life that are that

594
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: way that I have that experience with. And so thank

595
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: you for getting me through this year. And I'm gonna

596
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: kick Ka out of the group chat because I don't

597
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: want to be dimed out for anything. Let me just

598
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: tell you, if you did a cancoon, that would be

599
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: that Let's call that a verb in this group. If

600
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: you can coon, If you can coon, that's when you

601
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: call your girlfriend and say I'm picking you up at

602
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: the airport and you're gonna stay with me for a week.

603
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: We don't have anyone here who would do a can

604
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: because well, this goes two. Is Heidi Cruz publicly as

605
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: accountable as her husband is than we we're just Heidi Cruz.

606
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: Would that be a problem if she and her kids

607
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: were going or is it only because it was Ted

608
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: Cruise because he lied about it. I get the Ted

609
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: Cruise problem, But this was Heidie's friend diming her out

610
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: because Ted Cruz led about it and said it was

611
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: another thing, and this proved that it wasn't. That's why. Yeah,

612
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: But I still wouldn't dime out my girlfriend for her

613
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: husband doing something terrible. I'd call her on the phone

614
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: and be like, hey girl, I'm gonna pick you up

615
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: and we're gonna have a drink, maybe even worse, and

616
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: we're going to talk some truth here. But I would

617
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: not dime out my girlfriend on my mom chat to

618
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: the world. All Right, we're with you. We agree, we

619
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: don't go to cancoon, Stephanie. That's all I gotta say. Okay,

620
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: Luckily we're none of us are at risk of that.

621
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: A group chat is a circle of trust, and if

622
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: you cannot be trusted, yeah, all right, ladies, thank you

623
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: so so much. I love you. I miss your faces.

624
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: I can't wait to see you all and eat Hillary's food.

625
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: We love you. Thank you, Stephanie. I'm Stephanie Rule, and

626
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 1: you're listening to Modern Rules, a podcast from NBC Think,

627
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: MSNBC and I Heart Radio. This podcast is hosted by

628
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: Me Stephanie Rule. Mike Beet and Katrina Norvell are executive producers.

629
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: Meredith Bennett Smith is Senior editor for NBC Think and

630
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: our editorial lead. The podcast is engineered and edited by

631
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: Josh Fisher. Additional production support provided by Charles Herman, Rachel Rosenbaum,

632
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: and Lauren Wynn. Special thanks to Katherine kim Are, Global

633
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: Head of Digital News right here at NBC News and MSNBC.

634
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: For more thought provoking analysis, visit NBC news dot com

635
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: slash thank