1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: Conversations on life, style, beauty and relationships. It's The Velvet's 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: Edge Podcast with Kelly Henderson. Ingrid Clayton is here. She 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: has a licensed clinical psychologist and author, focusing much of 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: her work on complex trauma, PTSD and recovering from narcissistic abuse. Hi, Ingrid, 5 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: thank you for being here. Oh, thank you for having me. Well, 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: I was just telling you I found your work on 7 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: Instagram and I messaged you initially because you did a 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: post on just self forgiveness and the importance of that, 9 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: and that's been a huge piece of where I am 10 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: in my journey right now. I find it so much 11 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: easier to forgive other people for the things that have 12 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: happened or that they've done or anything like that, But 13 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: when it comes to forgiving myself, um, I had honestly 14 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 1: just don't even really think about that being on the list, 15 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: you know? Is that a common thing with people coming 16 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: out of any sort of traumatic situation, just to really 17 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: like be hard on themselves first. Yes, it is a 18 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: horror piece of a complex trauma survivor's experience. In fact, 19 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: a big piece of having you know, complex PTSD, if 20 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: you have that diagnosis or just experiences of complex trauma 21 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 1: is that we tend to be filled with this toxic 22 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: shame I am bad, you know, And so yeah, self compassion, 23 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: self forgiveness is the last house on the block that 24 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: we ever go to. And yet that's exactly why it's 25 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: such a fundamental piece of healing. And you know, in 26 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: my own personal process and in my work, I've found 27 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: that the more I understand trauma and trauma responses, the 28 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: more I'm able to forgive myself and have self compassion. 29 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: Because when we look at that, we're just you know, physiologically, 30 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: our bodies are just doing exactly what they are designed 31 00:01:55,040 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: to do, which is to seek survival. Survival will always comes, 32 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: and that we have these trauma responses that are designed 33 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: to keep us safe. Um, when I can see all 34 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: of my behaviors through that lens, I suddenly make sense 35 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: to myself and I go, oh, that's why I was 36 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 1: compulsively in these dysfunctional relationships or leaning into substances, and 37 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: you know, these things that I could have carried a 38 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: lot of shame about, I suddenly go, oh, right, these 39 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: were trauma responses. And when I could see him as that, 40 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: I can, you know, put my hand on my heart, 41 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: which to me is a big act of self compassion 42 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: and um, start to let some of that toxic shame go. Yeah. 43 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: I mean I love the work that you've done around 44 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: just the importance of understanding our own nervous system because 45 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: to me that too. It's like when you speak of 46 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: a trauma response, and I kind of want to get 47 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: into this in a second, but I have a lot 48 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: of listeners right into me and they're like, how do 49 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: I know if I have trauma or not? And UM, well, 50 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: I'm like it's two, So chances are you probably do 51 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: of some kind, you know, like after the last couple 52 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: of years, I think we've all survived something. Um. But 53 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: also like one of the things that I've heard you 54 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: say that has also been taught to me is just 55 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: noticing our responses to things. And the PTSD response is 56 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: something that's just kind of it's like an out of character, 57 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: out of body, all of these things, but it is 58 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: something trying to keep us safe. And so until we 59 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: can recognize it as a trauma response that we can't 60 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: really do anything about it. It's like you're powerless, or 61 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: that's been my experience at least. So can you talk 62 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: a little bit about your journey and just I mean, 63 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: I know you were going to school, you're maybe even 64 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: working as a therapist at this point and said, oh 65 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: my gosh, I think I have trauma, or you finally 66 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: were like, I think I have PTSD. So what was 67 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: that part of your journey? Like, yeah, So I want 68 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: to just speak to the thing you said right before 69 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: that first quickly, when someone says, well how do I know? 70 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: How do I know trauma? I think one way is 71 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: to look at your symptoms, patterns that you keep repeating, 72 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: that you don't want to repeat, that you can't stop, 73 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: that you feel powerless over. I think that's often more 74 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: of the indicator of trauma. Then figuring out the thing 75 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: that may have happened in your past, because sometimes we 76 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: can't ever point to that. You may not know what 77 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: it is, and that can be for lots of different reasons. 78 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: Develop Mentally, maybe um, you weren't able to consciously understand 79 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: something that happened, or often we dissociate when we experience 80 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: the traumatic events. So UM, I say, look to the 81 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 1: stuck places and see if you can place them in 82 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: the context of what we now know about trauma responses. 83 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: There's fight, flight, freeze, and fun, and there's a lot 84 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: of great information I talked about, you know, a lot 85 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: of those um on my Instagram page and and UM 86 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: in my book a little bit. So UM, I just 87 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: wanted to speak to that. But yes, so personally, how 88 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: I ended up talking about these things on Instagram is 89 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: essentially I was a trauma therapist, a clinical psychologist, as 90 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: you mentioned, who did not know that I have classic 91 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: complex PTSD. And so when I started to piece that together, 92 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: I thought, if I'm talking about these things all day, 93 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: every day, and I have all this knowledge, and I'm 94 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 1: still so defended against my own symptoms, and I'm still minimizing, 95 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 1: particularly um because of part of my traumatic experiences through 96 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: narcissistic abuse, which involved a lot of gas lighting. So 97 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: gas lighting is uh manipulation tactic that is designed to 98 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: make you question your reality. So it's you know, it 99 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: was effective growing up in gas lighting was effective that 100 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 1: it didn't make me um forget what I experienced or 101 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: questioned it a hundred percent, but it turned the dial 102 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: down to where I was like, maybe it wasn't that bad, 103 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: Maybe I maybe I am exaggerating just a little bit. 104 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: You know, it erodes yourself trust and so here I 105 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: was working in the field, having all these amazing tools, 106 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: and of course there was a reason I was drawn 107 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: to that on some level, but it didn't unlock, um, 108 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: the fact that I was living with so much unresolved 109 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: complex trauma. So seeds were planted along the way. Um. 110 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: One that I talked about in my memoir is sitting 111 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: in a very intimate training at a treatment center where 112 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: I worked many many years ago, and Vessel Vander Colkey 113 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: wrote the body keeps the score. Um. Yes, it's it's 114 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 1: sort of the Bible in drama. Um. And he was 115 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: he was doing a training and he was sharing a 116 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: case study, and gosh, to this day, my body has 117 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: such a strong reaction when I think about this moment 118 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: because it was the first time that I had ever 119 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: heard the things that I had experienced and trauma in 120 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: the same sentence. So he was telling my story, but 121 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: like I mentioned, were full of this toxic shame. And 122 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: all I felt when I heard him tell my story 123 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: was nobody can know that I identify with this client 124 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: that he's talking about, because I was there as a clinician. 125 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: I was there to help people, and I felt like, 126 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: how can I help people if I'm still so stuck 127 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: in this part of my life. Right, So, I was 128 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: working on a treatment center and I had quite a 129 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: bit of recovery, personal recovery myself at that point, so 130 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: I felt like, Okay, I have something to offer here. 131 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: But when it came to the trauma a piece, I 132 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: just felt like, Oh, it was so shameful that it 133 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: it planted to see that. Oh maybe trauma is a 134 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: word that is personal to me, but it is so shameful. 135 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: I couldn't touch it, for I don't Ten fifteen years later, 136 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: when my life finally evolved in such a way where 137 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: it was like, you cannot keep living with these buried 138 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: burdens thinking that you're broken one minute more and basically 139 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:39,959 Speaker 1: everything has to change, and um, this this writing started 140 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: pouring through me. My own story started pouring through me. 141 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: And the long story short is that I wrote long enough, 142 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: um about all of these things that needed to be 143 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: said that I could finally see them all in black 144 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 1: and white from a therapist perspective, and I could see it. 145 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: Not only do I have complex PTSD, but this is 146 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 1: why because I grew up with this narcissistic stepdad who 147 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: fits that bill classically as well in terms of all 148 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: of his behaviors. Um so, yeah, So that's that's what 149 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: brought me here, and now that I'm like, you know, 150 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: I've connected some of the dots. I just I feel 151 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: really passionate about sharing this information with other people in 152 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: a way that they can hopefully digest it and and 153 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: that it resonates as personal, which is why, even though 154 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: I'm a therapist, I share my own story because sometimes 155 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: the clinical language doesn't we can't we don't know how 156 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 1: it relates to us, right, it's really hard to connect. 157 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 1: I knew about narcissism. I didn't know what that had 158 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: to do with the man who walked around my house 159 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: and his underwear. Growing up, it was like there were 160 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: two separate things. So I think often it's through shared story, 161 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: through that type of connection from one person to another, 162 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: that we go It's why hearing a case study about 163 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: you know, the best l Vandercolte was sharing was so 164 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 1: impactful because I heard another survivor's story right, selected back 165 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: my truth in a way that reading the d s 166 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: M never could. So. Um yeah, So I hope that 167 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: answers your question. I feel like I would, and no, 168 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: it does. It gave me questions, so let me try 169 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: to remember them. Glad that you make the point about 170 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: UM just pointing out was it really that bad? I 171 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 1: know that's something that I have faced in my life, 172 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: and I've heard a lot of other people UM come 173 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: up against that. It's like we gaslight ourselves almost, especially 174 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: if you're coming out of such a situation where you 175 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: were gas light and manipulated so hard. I think owning 176 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: your own reality has been and especially like I'm someone 177 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: recovering kind of pennant and said, that's a really tough one, 178 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: because I quickly want to go to everyone else and 179 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,719 Speaker 1: be like this was real, right, Like this is this 180 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: did happen? And like I can see myself reacting in 181 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: these big ways, But wait, was I just the full problem? 182 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: Like did I make all of that up? And like, 183 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:12,199 Speaker 1: were my trauma responses completely made up in the entire 184 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: issue in this relationship? You know, like I'll do that 185 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: to myself. So I do think it's really important when 186 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: people with experience like you, who have trauma in their 187 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: past but also have UM the book smarts about it, 188 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: to be able to say to us, no, that is real, 189 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: and that's actually part of the post traumatic symptom, you know, 190 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,199 Speaker 1: to be question yourself. Um. The other thing I wanted 191 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: to bring up, it's just I keep hearing people say 192 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: things like, well, narcissist is such a buzzword now, and 193 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 1: so it's almost and I do agree, like maybe we're 194 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: overusing it the same way we overuse everything in our world, 195 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: but like it almost is um upsetting to me how 196 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: much people are saying that now, because I'm worried it's 197 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: like taking away the survivor of narcissists. It's abuse experience 198 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: to be like again, go back into that, it wasn't 199 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: that bad, Like do you see that happening with people? 200 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: I see it happening with every diagnosis that has ever 201 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: been on the books, that we take something co opted 202 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: and we go and actually I can't stand this, but 203 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: you know it's happened since the beginning of time. Is 204 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: that we go, oh, that's so o c D and 205 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: taking a true obsessive compulsive disorder and we're using it 206 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 1: in this colloquial way that really minimizes and diminishes what 207 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 1: that actual experiences. UM. So I think generally speaking, you know, culturally, 208 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: we need to be aware about how we're using language 209 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: and um. And I think, particularly when you're talking about 210 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: mental health, that that yes, what you're saying is real, 211 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,839 Speaker 1: is that it tends to diminish the actual experience. And 212 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: what I'll say about narcissistic abuse particular. You know, it's 213 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: not like I didn't go to many a therapist on 214 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: my road to recovery or many still twelve step programs. 215 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: And I mean I was earnestly looking for help. Ye 216 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 1: I didn't know exactly what I needed. I didn't have 217 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: this language that I have now. But no one along 218 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: the way ever said to me, Ingrid, this is trauma 219 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: and these are trauma responses, and no one ever said 220 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: this is narcissistic abuse. And I think in part because 221 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: if you haven't experienced it, it is it is so 222 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: difficult to wrap your mind around how debilitating and devastating 223 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: that really is. So it is a real. It is 224 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: a real thing. It is not to be uh talked 225 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: about lightly, in my opinion, and I don't I take 226 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: it very seriously. I'm a clinician, and early when I 227 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: started speaking out more publicly, I would get some feedback like, oh, 228 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: you're you're talking about a mental health condition in a 229 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: way that's very stigmatizing, and I thought, you know what, 230 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: You're right, I am because I'm saying narcissistic personality disorder, 231 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: I'm using it in conjunction with narcissistic abuse. And yet 232 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: I'm speaking from a survivor's perspective primarily, and I know 233 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: how life giving and affirming it is to have this 234 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: language and then all of the shared language around that. 235 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: What is gaslighting? What is love bombing? What is trauma bonding? 236 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: How has this you know, been activated in my system 237 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: in a way, um that it's way more important to 238 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: me to use the survivor's language, um than it is 239 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: to be worried about Yeah, well, well maybe I am 240 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: stigmatizing a personality disorder, um. And yet it is the 241 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: nature of that personality disorder that it can be so 242 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: destructive and coming from someone who literally has no empathy 243 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: or awareness of their impact in a way that they 244 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: will ever change that. I want people to know, Yes, 245 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: this is what you're dealing with. This is how brutal 246 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: that is. And yeah, it's it's just it's a shame 247 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: that it can be talked about so casually. What does 248 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: it even mean stigmatizing it? I don't I've been trying 249 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: to process that while you said that, and I don't 250 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: think I know. Well, it's sort of saying that, um, 251 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: it's it's it's painting it in a broad rush and 252 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: and um and saying that it's that it's negative, that 253 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: it's you're saying that someone has this disorder, that maybe 254 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: they're even a trauma survivor themselves. El, Um, that you are. 255 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: You're just speaking negatively. Stick there's a stigma attached to 256 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: this disorder, and that I am reinforcing that by using 257 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: language like narcissistic. Yeah. And so you know what I 258 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: say in my book is that I'm aware that not everybody, Well, 259 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: first of all, narcissism itself is a spectrum, and what 260 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: I'm talking is the personality disorder UM. And not everybody, 261 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: even with the disorder, is necessarily abusive. UM. Not all 262 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: abusers are have narcissistic personality disorder. I can differentiate. But 263 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: in my experience, those two things lived together and they 264 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: had a particular impact. And it's a particular impact that 265 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: survivors who have been there, UM can all. It's like 266 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: a textbook. You know, We've all experienced so many similar 267 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: shades of the same exact thing. And and unfortunately, because 268 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: it goes missed by so many, even you know, mental 269 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: health professionals, it is the survivors who was sort of 270 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: banded together and cobbled together this ability to help one another. Um, 271 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 1: because we haven't been served. So I'm like, well, you 272 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 1: know what, then I'm gonna do whatever I can do 273 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: to try to help prop up and support the survivor. 274 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 1: And I'm okay with that. Yes, well, I appreciate that. 275 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: I think it's been super helpful to me. Why is 276 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: it something that so many clinicians missed, especially nowadays, Like 277 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 1: I'm just like, hello, like I don't get it. I 278 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: hope that that's changing, you know. Um, for people who 279 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: know Dr Romney's work, I think she's one of experts 280 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 1: on this this subject and I have had the privilege 281 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: of getting to know her through she's endorsed my book. 282 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: And um, she was saying that is going to be 283 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: starting a training program specifically on narcissistic give use four clinicians, 284 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: because the reality is what we even get in graduate 285 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: school is so tiny, right, and then unless you go 286 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: and work with these populations, you don't really get a 287 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: sense of of you know, it's kind of on the 288 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: job training, and so if you haven't worked in that 289 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 1: particular field, if someone comes through the door, I think 290 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: this is just also human is that we tend to 291 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: want to see the best in people and we want 292 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: to knit relationships back together and we think that that's 293 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 1: you know, part of the job. And if you haven't 294 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: been impacted, I just genuinely believe it is so hard 295 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 1: to understand a human being being so calculating. And I 296 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 1: want to say the word evil because that is what 297 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: it feels. I think it's hard to understand that that 298 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 1: even exists in the world. It's hard to hold space 299 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: for that and um, and so unless you know, you 300 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: don't really know, and you want to give everybody the 301 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: sit of the doubt, which is also what survivors are doing. 302 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: So if survivors are going, well, maybe it wasn't that bad, 303 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: and you know, they just have these issues, and well 304 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: I have my issues and we all have to compromise. 305 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: If that's what the survivor is even presenting, I think 306 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: a therapist wants to hook into that and be hopeful, oh, well, 307 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: I can help you, you know, be a better partner 308 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: and show up for your side of the street. And 309 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 1: I think they come by it honestly, but it's the Unfortunately, 310 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: the consequences are devastating because the real root of the 311 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: problem is just completely missed. Mm hmm. Yeah, And it's 312 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 1: so interesting. I mean, I've talked about this a lot 313 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: on this podcast before, but um, as someone who's been 314 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: in a couple of these situations, whether it was work 315 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: or just romantic relationships friendships, you know, I'm an equal 316 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: opportunity relationship person there obviously have some patterns of having 317 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:19,199 Speaker 1: to work on. But I think that a lot of 318 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: times for me, in some ways, a way for me 319 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,959 Speaker 1: to actually soothe my nervous system, especially in those dynamics, 320 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: is to say, oh, maybe it's me, because that's something 321 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: I can do something about where we feel like we 322 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: have control. And also, the root of a lot of 323 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: complex trauma is in childhood. Okay, so particularly when you're 324 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 1: talking about wounds in childhood, Developmentally, we literally need our 325 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: caregivers to survive. So if there is a wound there, 326 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: and we see this all the time, there's so many 327 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: examples of it where even you see a child that 328 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: has been maybe so deeply abused, used by a parent, 329 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: and the one thing that they want when they're taken 330 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: away is their parent. They will never vilify the parent, 331 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: They will make it their fault because it feels safer, 332 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: I need my parent to survive, and so that not 333 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: only does that make sense develop mentally, but when we 334 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,199 Speaker 1: look at the fawning trauma response, which it sounds like 335 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: you probably identify with I certainly identify with that, the 336 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: fawning trauma response basically shows up as the people pleasing codependency. 337 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: I abandoned myself in service of you, because if I 338 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: can take care of you, then maybe you'll take care 339 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: of me. What we discover is that what makes us 340 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: feel safe and I kind of put that in quotes 341 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: because it's not real, true, complete whole safety, but it's 342 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: like a semblance of safety, like enough connection to sort 343 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: of feel like safety if we find that by abandoning 344 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 1: ourselves in service of someone who's willing to exploit us. 345 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: And this is the reason why, in part you've experienced 346 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: it with bosses and friends and romantic relationships, is that 347 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: literally our body now is imprinted with this experience that 348 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: says I feel safest when I'm being exploited. And that's 349 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: why looking at ourselves through the lens of trauma finally 350 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: allowed me to make sense to myself because I sat 351 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 1: on a million therapist couches and I said, why do 352 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: I keep ending up in the same relationship with a 353 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 1: different face? What am I doing here? And I, you know, 354 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: I'd like to think I was smart enough, and I 355 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: was analyzing it, and I looked what happened in my childhood. 356 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: But until I understood that about trauma responses and how 357 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: we are wired to seek safety, and that my body 358 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: developed in a system where safety was found by abandoning myself, 359 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: I had to go find people that were willing to 360 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,880 Speaker 1: take advantage of that to feel this kind of fox safety, 361 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: and then I could lean into Oh gosh, so I 362 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: have to do the hard work of setting boundaries that 363 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: feel horrible because they're going against the grain of what 364 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 1: has always felt safe, and lean into relationships that don't 365 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: have those crazy highs and crazy lows that I confused 366 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: for love and go, oh, well this, you know, this 367 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: feels different, but maybe it's healthier. And like, just practice, 368 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 1: literally practiced this new way of being in my body, 369 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,199 Speaker 1: of being in relationship to safety in being relationship and 370 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: being in the world. And that's why, you know, I 371 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: started out by saying, when I put these pieces together, 372 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: it's sort of like everything has to change, because everything 373 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: in me had to change in order for me to 374 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: access my whole self for the first time really in 375 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: my whole life that go ahead, well, where where I 376 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:13,719 Speaker 1: wasn't just compulsively repeating and living in these perpetual trauma 377 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 1: responses that we often get confused, like we confuse it 378 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,159 Speaker 1: for our personality. We go, oh, no, this is just 379 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,360 Speaker 1: who I am, not who I am. That's who I 380 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,640 Speaker 1: had to become in order to feel like I could 381 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 1: survive the environment I was in. Right, Yeah, And I 382 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: was gonna say the thing that I heard so much 383 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: in that that I've really bumped up against myself is 384 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: when you are healing, you're you're going to have those 385 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: You're still going to feel those draws to the unhealthy. 386 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: So like, so what you just described, like I say, 387 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: I'm a drawn to people who exploit me um, and 388 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: that has been That's one I've never heard that definition, 389 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 1: but that was so my story, and so over and 390 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: over I repeated that same thing where it's like I 391 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: go into a situation overshare than they use it against me, 392 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 1: and then you know, it's just this cycle. But what's 393 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: hard for me now is trying to do it differently 394 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: and learn new patterns. It's uncomfortable to be in a 395 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 1: situation where that's not happening. I don't know how to 396 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 1: do it. It is not uncomfortable in my experience, it 397 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: it is deeply painful, and that you know, I say 398 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: that trauma healing is the bravest and hardest thing that 399 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: we will ever do, and that the healing in my experience, 400 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 1: and I've witnessed it a lot with my clients, the 401 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:47,239 Speaker 1: healing hurts worse than whatever wounds that we know that 402 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: we're healing from. And that makes sense when you think 403 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: about it, because we're finally feeling the things that we've 404 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: been abandoning ourselves so we didn't have to feel, and 405 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: turning to substances and in perpetual motion and perfectionism and 406 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 1: all these things. We're finally the trauma responses are receding 407 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 1: and we're dropping into our actual bodies and we're feeling 408 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: those things. And it's major. I mean, I never want 409 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: to sugarcoat it. It is heavy lifting, hard work, and 410 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: a hundred percent of the time I think it's worth it. Yes, Okay, 411 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,479 Speaker 1: And I want to talk about why it's worth it 412 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: after I have this question, because I actually it helps 413 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,360 Speaker 1: me even though I'm still in the midst of the 414 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: healing and so the pain and all of that. Like 415 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: I wish you could say to me, O, Kelly, tomorrow, 416 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: it's going to feel better, you know, I mean, like 417 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 1: or whatever. I wish there was a map or a 418 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: calendar or any of that ship but there's not, and 419 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: you just have to go through it. Um. I do know, 420 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: just from healing work I've done in the past, like 421 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: the only way out is through, so keep going. It 422 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 1: does get better, but it helps me to here that 423 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 1: that is actually the hardest part. I think. Actually Dr 424 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: Romney is one of the people who I heard say 425 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: this specifically about narcissistic abuses. Getting out and then what 426 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 1: follows that is oftentimes the worst part. So like I 427 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 1: think a lot of times in our society you think, well, 428 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: if something's bad, if a relationship is unhealthy, get out, 429 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 1: and then that ends that and it's like, if you're 430 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: doing this, actually that's when the process really starts and 431 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: some of the pain really starts. And so often you'll 432 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: have people saying like, well, what what's wrong with you 433 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: that you still are dealing with this or whatever. But 434 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: it's like, especially in narcissistic situations, that's when it really 435 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: can escalate, you know, and things get way worse before 436 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: they get better. You're talking about two things I want 437 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: to kind of use a part of it so hard. 438 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: One one is from a trauma perspective, which we've been discussing, right, 439 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 1: So you are feeling these feelings that you were avoiding 440 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: by kind of staying in the chaotic system. Yes, that 441 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: is so hard. But next to that, when you're talking 442 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: about narcissistic abuse is the post separation abuse, which can 443 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 1: escalate and those tactics can become really scary and so 444 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: much worse. When you're talking about walking away from that 445 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: level of an abusive relationship. It is why, in part, 446 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: people end up staying. It is why people end up 447 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: going back, you know, um, because that's real. So so 448 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: both things are through and so yes, it's not this 449 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: idea that like, oh, if you know, why can't you 450 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: just you know, it's like no, no, no no, no, no. Um. 451 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: What we have to face on the other side is big. 452 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: And to your other point, it is a process and 453 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: and every individual's process is different and I always say 454 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: I wish I kind of magic wand you know I do. 455 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: I really do too. I wish you did too. I 456 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: want to find the shortcut, you know, that's um, but 457 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: the shortcuts are always long cuts. And what we have 458 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: to do is be as present to our whole selves 459 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: as as we can with all the support that we 460 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: can have. Well, I do think that's one of the benefits. 461 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it can be scary who we're 462 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: getting information from on social media, but it opens us 463 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: up into a deeper I mean, like there's just I 464 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: would have never found you otherwise, you know, like the 465 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: ways to connect with people right now are just so vast, 466 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: and so even hearing you say like, well, yes, that 467 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: is the hardest part and it gets better. It's always 468 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: worth it, and UM to keep walking through it. It's 469 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: just it's good. I think to me, that's that's the hope, 470 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: is that I can hear my story in someone else 471 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: and I can connect on this bigger level with someone 472 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: I've never met from across the country. You know, Like 473 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: we have these opportunities nowadays that we're given that really 474 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: are really healing. I'm so grateful for the community piece 475 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: of it. I wish we had this was growing up. 476 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: I tell you, I know the downsides of social media too, 477 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: and those are real. But the access to information and 478 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: free information is power. And that is also why I'm 479 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: committed to putting stuff out there on Instagram right, because 480 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,479 Speaker 1: it's these digestible means means, it's a little bit at 481 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: a time. You know, the trauma stuff and the narcissism 482 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: stuff can be so overwhelming. I can't tell you how 483 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: many books I bought over the years. I haven't probably 484 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: read one of them because they were too triggering. Yes, 485 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: so there's also something really beautiful about just these, you know, 486 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,239 Speaker 1: smaller pieces that you can get, one little layer at 487 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: a time that we can actually read and hear and 488 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 1: see and relate to. I'm so grateful for that. Yeah, yeah, 489 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: me too. Well so what is you mentioned? Um, you 490 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: think that it's worth it every time? Why? Why is 491 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: it worth it? Oh? That question always just makes me 492 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: emotional when I really run it through, like, well, why, 493 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: ingrid Yeah why? And if I go back to my body, 494 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: it's worth it because living with unresolved complex trauma, like 495 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 1: we already talked about the shame is so devastating. But 496 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: I genuinely, genuinely thought that I was just broken because 497 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: I had tried so hard. I everything from I organized 498 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: an intervention when I was sixteen years old from my 499 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: family with social services. Fast forward to you know, I'm 500 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: now sober for twenty seven years. I've been in multiple 501 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: twelve step programs. I've said on eight million therapist couches, 502 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: I've done the yoga retreats, I've practiced meditation, and still 503 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, I became a clinical psychologist, 504 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:00,040 Speaker 1: three degrees in psychology. Became like I tried all of 505 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: the things to overcome what happened to me, and yet 506 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: it was still living in me in such a way 507 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: that I genuinely couldn't trust myself. I couldn't see myself, 508 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: I didn't like myself, and I thought there was something 509 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: really wrong with me. I do not believe that anymore, 510 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: and as a mom to now a seven year old boy, 511 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: I believe that we have the power to break some 512 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: of these generational patterns that have been handed down since 513 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: the beginning of time. I'm never gonna do it perfectly. 514 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: I'm never gonna catch everything, but I am committed to 515 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: regulating my nervous system and getting, as you know, sort 516 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: of aware and um cultivating the self compassion and self 517 00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: love in a way that I can so that I 518 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: don't inadvertently passed down that same critical lens. Because if 519 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: I'm seeing myself that way, I know I'm seeing my 520 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: little boy that way. And it wasn't consciously. I could 521 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: read all the parenting books, they didn't matter because it 522 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: was about this deeper, instinctual conditioning that has a life 523 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: of its own. The nervous system has a different language, right, 524 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: It's not this intellectual understanding I could read, just like 525 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: I went and got all these degrees. I could read 526 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: every parenting book. But if I'm still relating to the 527 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: way that I was blamed and criticized for everything that 528 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: happened to me, I'm still holding that as though it 529 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: does belong to me. Guess what I'm bringing to my 530 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: relationship with my son. And So when I did this 531 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: deeper work and I finally felt the impact of these 532 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: traumatic events, which was brutal, set in motion some healthier boundaries, 533 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: hardest thing I've ever done. I instantly I knew that 534 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: I had the capacity to be a better mom. I 535 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: felt the change. I can't even articulate it. But I 536 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: knew that it made a difference, and for that reason alone, 537 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: I would do it all over again. But but my 538 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,760 Speaker 1: relationship to myself, I feel like I know who I am. Finally, 539 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to figure it out. I'm not trying 540 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:33,760 Speaker 1: to arrive at some place. It's like these atrophied parts 541 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 1: of my being have been filled in with color and 542 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: character and magic and creativity and connection in all these 543 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: things I was longing for. In a way, I go 544 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: there in me, There in me. It's nothing I have 545 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:54,760 Speaker 1: to chase and find and figure out. They always belonged 546 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: to me. I can take ownership of them again. I 547 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,439 Speaker 1: can be a fuller helf in the world. And yeah, 548 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: I hope, I hope I'm articulating it in a way. Okay, yeah, 549 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: because that's why it's worth it. And I've seen so 550 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: many people take that same path, and and there will 551 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 1: always be a time where they come to me and 552 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 1: they go, ingrid, it's not working, I'm doing it wrong. 553 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: This feels horrible. I shouldn't be feeling this bad or 554 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,399 Speaker 1: whatever it is, And I go, you know what, this 555 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: is what healing looks like. This is what healing looks like, 556 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 1: and we want it to look like the hist really happy, 557 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: happy shiny slide where we're all ha been looking cute 558 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: and like in all these successful relationships, and I've made 559 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 1: a billion dollars, like, we all want it to look 560 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: like some finish line fantasy version of that. I get it, 561 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: I do too, But what that robs us of is 562 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: the truth and the reality of what it means to 563 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 1: come into our bodies and do this work in a 564 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,879 Speaker 1: way where we are just knitting back together a relationship 565 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 1: with our true self and um and and that's what 566 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 1: healing looks like. Sometimes it looks like being in a 567 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: puddle on the floor, just sobbing it out because of 568 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: what you're grieving, what you've actually lost, what you never 569 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: had to begin with, what you're never gonna have again, 570 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,799 Speaker 1: because you're walking away from toxic things that, even though 571 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: we know they're bad for us, it feels horrible to 572 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: leave them. I mean, this is big stuff and my bikes, 573 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 1: but I think it's worth it every time. Well, what 574 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: you just described makes it sound very worth it to me. 575 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: And I'm so grateful that people are having conversations like 576 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 1: what you're saying and what you're putting out there on Instagram, 577 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: so that when it does get muddy, and when you 578 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,720 Speaker 1: do have the bad days and the puddle on the floor, 579 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: you keep going because I know, I especially when I 580 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 1: first started my recovery journey, I was like, Okay, well, 581 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 1: I am doing all this work and I'm doing you know, 582 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: step work, and I'm seeing a therapist and whatever. I 583 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 1: just thought that like the reward at the end of 584 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 1: that was a perfect relationship or my life just looked 585 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: perfect and it was just only a hill from there. 586 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,400 Speaker 1: And it has not played out that way. It's gotten better, 587 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,320 Speaker 1: and when things do come up, you know, I tend 588 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 1: to know I have different tools and that's you know, 589 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 1: I guess the most that people can hope for, and 590 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: hopefully that just keeps getting easier and easier and easier. Um. 591 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 1: But yeah, like it's messy and ugly. And I think 592 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: as a society too, we're just so programmed to just 593 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: only want to see the really shiny, pretty stuff and 594 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: that's hard and it puts so much pressure on ourselves 595 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: to where until you crash, you're not really willing to 596 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 1: just be honest, like, hey, like not every day is 597 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: picture perfect and that's okay, Like I'm still successful and 598 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 1: still living a great life because I'm human, and because 599 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 1: I'm human, yes, in condition. And it's the other reason 600 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 1: where I become more and more willing as a clinician 601 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:08,320 Speaker 1: to show how I'm still actively engaged in a healing 602 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: process in places that still feel tricky for me, because 603 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: I never want to give the impression well, Kelly, that's 604 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 1: nice that you're still in process and maybe if you 605 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: try hard, maybe if you try harder, or you know, X, 606 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: Y and Z, you'll get there. Man, oh man, we 607 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: have enough shame that we're waiting through. I do not 608 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: want to inadvertently pile on, and so I go, yeah, 609 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,280 Speaker 1: this is what my process may not look like everyone's, 610 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 1: but I'm willing to go, oh, this is I had 611 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,959 Speaker 1: an emotional flashback, and this is what that looks like. 612 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:46,800 Speaker 1: And here's how I was still engaging in a trauma 613 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,799 Speaker 1: response that wasn't necessarily serving me and what I'm doing 614 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 1: differently about it. And um, I wish more people in 615 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: the mental health field in particular would do that, because 616 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: otherwise we go to anyone who's hung as shingle and 617 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: says they're a therapist, and we go, oh, you have 618 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: all the answers and you are perfect, and I'm going 619 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: to endow you with all of this like whatever. And 620 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 1: it's like, no, we're in this together. Do I have 621 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 1: a lot of information and tools? Yeah, I sure do, 622 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: but we're doing this together, which gives you, know you 623 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 1: in this case, because I'm speaking to you, hopefully a 624 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 1: little more agency around like, yes, I can do this 625 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: right because I'm just You're a person. I'm a person, right, Okay, cool, cool, 626 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 1: let's do this well. And the other thing that that 627 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,799 Speaker 1: does for me is, you know, like I as a 628 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,319 Speaker 1: like I said earlier, a person who wants to go 629 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: to anyone else to tell me how I live my life. 630 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: Going to a therapist can become even almost a hindrance 631 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,799 Speaker 1: in some ways for that reason, because I'm like, hey, like, 632 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 1: I have an awesome therapist here, and she has saved 633 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,359 Speaker 1: my life, I feel, and and ultimately, at the end 634 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: of the day, I have to save my life. So 635 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 1: like she helped me get on the right track, and 636 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 1: thank God for all the information she has taught me 637 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 1: over the years, but she can't herself save me. And 638 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 1: I put her in that position for a really long time. 639 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 1: And um again, it puts you back in that like, 640 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: I don't know what to do for me. I can't 641 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,720 Speaker 1: trust myself, which just keeps the my cycle of toxicity 642 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,840 Speaker 1: in life going. You know, like someone else tell me 643 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: how to do this, fix me all the stuff, and 644 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:36,240 Speaker 1: it's like getting the information is so helpful, but having 645 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: other people remind me they're also on a human journey 646 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 1: is super helpful because it, just like you said, puts 647 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 1: this kind of on even an even playing field where 648 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:51,799 Speaker 1: we can work together versus like the one up. And 649 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:53,840 Speaker 1: it sounds like you do have such a great therapist, 650 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 1: because I also know even personally, it's an easy trap 651 00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: for a therapist to fall in do I like feeling 652 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 1: like I have all the answers. I like feeling like, 653 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,239 Speaker 1: oh you really need me. I mean the same thing, 654 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,839 Speaker 1: And now I'm being effective and you're happy because you're 655 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:16,800 Speaker 1: walking away with these answers, and yet it's in service of, 656 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 1: you know, staying stuck. And so therapists who can like 657 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: on the fact that that might feel really good for 658 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,319 Speaker 1: thirty seconds and then go okay, but that's not my job. 659 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: Not my job. How can I have all the answers 660 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,359 Speaker 1: for you if I see you for fifty minutes a week. 661 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it's sort of right. It's like, I also 662 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,399 Speaker 1: don't want lots of Ingrid's running around, right, I want 663 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,319 Speaker 1: like in Ingrid and you know, all of the I 664 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 1: want you to be in your body and your life, 665 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,239 Speaker 1: you know, and we can only do that by you 666 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:57,840 Speaker 1: living your authentic path. Oh yeah, It's such a trap 667 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: because even like having a podcast us I think, you know, 668 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 1: I get to interview amazing people who have a lot 669 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,680 Speaker 1: of expertise in certain areas, and so I start getting 670 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,320 Speaker 1: dems of like, well, what you know, do I have trauma? 671 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh God, don't come at me. And 672 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 1: but but it is a temptation. I would be lying 673 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,799 Speaker 1: if I didn't say it's a temptation for me because 674 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,840 Speaker 1: I've gotten more information because of these conversations and the 675 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,840 Speaker 1: work that I've done to not want to say to 676 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 1: break it down because then in some weird way in 677 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 1: my head I'm like, oh my gosh, all my pain 678 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,359 Speaker 1: was worth it because look I can help somebody with 679 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,439 Speaker 1: it now. Not that sharing our stories isn't, but it's 680 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,920 Speaker 1: just like, what's my motivation? And am I like actually 681 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,800 Speaker 1: working with them or am I just wanting my ego 682 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 1: to get a hit so that I feel like gave 683 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 1: me a plus today or something. You know, I think 684 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 1: you're right about just owning what our motivation is because 685 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 1: I think both are true. That it is useful to go. Oh, 686 00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,360 Speaker 1: I do have more information, and you're asking me a 687 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,920 Speaker 1: question that I happen to answer, and I wish you 688 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,719 Speaker 1: well on that path, right or feels like I don't 689 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,680 Speaker 1: really know the answer, but I feel like I need 690 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 1: to give one, and maybe if I can give one, 691 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,719 Speaker 1: that means something about you know, it's just to check out, 692 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 1: like what am I experiencing? That's the language of trauma recovery. 693 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 1: I think with almost any modality, if you're talking about 694 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: somatic experiencing, E, M, D R, internal family systems, all 695 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,959 Speaker 1: these things, we are constantly saying, what are you experiencing now? 696 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:36,279 Speaker 1: What are you noticing now? And those curiosities allow us 697 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:40,920 Speaker 1: to drop into our body where this wisdom lives and 698 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,279 Speaker 1: we can kind of check out, like what am I experiencing? Oh? 699 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 1: I feel anxious. Oh, I feel like I'm on the 700 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,239 Speaker 1: hook to have all the answers. I feel like I 701 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 1: want to have all whatever that information tends to live. 702 00:43:56,080 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 1: When we can sink down in our bodies and really 703 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 1: listened to that wisdom. You know, that's where it tends 704 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:08,720 Speaker 1: to lie. The body keeps the scormum. Well, your book, 705 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,040 Speaker 1: this is actually your second book. It's called Believing Me. 706 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,080 Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about the book. I love 707 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,479 Speaker 1: that title, by the way, Thank you. Yes, So this 708 00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 1: is this is the book that um that I want 709 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,040 Speaker 1: to I was gonna say, and then I stopped myself 710 00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 1: because I've never said it quite like that, but it 711 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:28,680 Speaker 1: felt true. So I'm going to say it. This is 712 00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,680 Speaker 1: the book that saved my life. Because I had no 713 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,000 Speaker 1: intentions of ever in a million years, never on my horizon. 714 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,640 Speaker 1: I'm going to write a memoir. I'm gonna write a 715 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:44,800 Speaker 1: memlar on childhood trauma and narcissis no one ever and 716 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 1: and reality is is. I didn't even know that that's 717 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 1: what I was writing for about three years. I was 718 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:57,440 Speaker 1: just after my stepdad died, and I was aware that 719 00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 1: I felt safer in the world than I had ever 720 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,920 Speaker 1: felt ever. I was being woken in the middle of 721 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,680 Speaker 1: the night, almost like clockwork, every single night with these 722 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,000 Speaker 1: essays that I had to get out of bed. I 723 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,400 Speaker 1: had to go to my kitchen table and start writing 724 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:18,440 Speaker 1: these things. They were fully intact scenes from my own life, 725 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,239 Speaker 1: as though they were just waiting for me to write 726 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,640 Speaker 1: them down. And I knew it felt important. I knew 727 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: I couldn't stop, and it felt like a little bit scary, 728 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,200 Speaker 1: like it was coming at me so hard and fast. 729 00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,200 Speaker 1: And then in every kind of waking moment, I'd be 730 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,719 Speaker 1: in the shower and I'd be like, here comes another one. 731 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 1: I have to kind of capture it. And over time, 732 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,880 Speaker 1: through this, through this writing process, like I said, I 733 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,920 Speaker 1: was able to look at it through this lens of 734 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:49,000 Speaker 1: a therapist and UM and discovered, oh my gosh, I 735 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:55,319 Speaker 1: was these essays were actually the traumatic events that I experienced, 736 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,400 Speaker 1: and like all the evidence that I could amass in 737 00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:00,640 Speaker 1: one place so I could find only see how it 738 00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:04,920 Speaker 1: hung together. And then my trauma responses, the way that 739 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:09,799 Speaker 1: I instinctively held and reacted to all of that through 740 00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,880 Speaker 1: all of these different ways, through fawning and flight and 741 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:17,239 Speaker 1: addictions and codependency and all the things perfectionism and you 742 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,800 Speaker 1: know two. Then once I had all of those in place, 743 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,879 Speaker 1: it was like, oh, so almost like a now what, like, well, 744 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:26,960 Speaker 1: what does real healing mean? And I had done some 745 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:31,440 Speaker 1: trauma work, um, but like I said, I think before 746 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,960 Speaker 1: that I really had to look at these relationships that 747 00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 1: I still had in my life that we're still operating 748 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,279 Speaker 1: under the same assumption that it was my fault and 749 00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:45,319 Speaker 1: I was the one who was broken. And um, you know, 750 00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:49,399 Speaker 1: the the other piece alongside the writing is that I 751 00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,520 Speaker 1: literally called anyone who crossed my mind. I became so 752 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,279 Speaker 1: bold in this way that it's still shocking to me 753 00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,600 Speaker 1: because even though I've talked about my story and therapy 754 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,400 Speaker 1: for I've never gone back to the key players. Like 755 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:06,719 Speaker 1: I literally found my counselor from high school and I 756 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,840 Speaker 1: called social services in Colorado where I grew up, and 757 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,759 Speaker 1: I just wanted to understand what did this look like 758 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:18,520 Speaker 1: to you? What do you remember? Um? And I ended 759 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:22,879 Speaker 1: up having some conversations that I never could have seen 760 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,680 Speaker 1: them coming. I got information that I wished that I 761 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,640 Speaker 1: had had my whole life at some pieces were put 762 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,960 Speaker 1: in place, and basically what I was doing again, I 763 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:34,960 Speaker 1: didn't know it at the time, but I was. I 764 00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,719 Speaker 1: was basically saying to myself, I'm going to do whatever 765 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:44,279 Speaker 1: it takes to validate myself and my experiences. I'm going 766 00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:48,600 Speaker 1: to take my truth back as forcefully and in as 767 00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,600 Speaker 1: big a way as I possibly because it needed to 768 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:56,920 Speaker 1: be that big in order to kind of take away 769 00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,000 Speaker 1: this feeling that I've been carrying and self gaslighting myself 770 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:01,960 Speaker 1: for so long that it wasn't that bad and it 771 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,640 Speaker 1: wasn't a big deal. And you know, you accept people 772 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:06,920 Speaker 1: for who they are, and you have more support and 773 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,080 Speaker 1: resource and information, it's okay if they, you know, still 774 00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:13,320 Speaker 1: see you as a compulsive liar and you know whatever, 775 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:17,960 Speaker 1: it's like. Um So believing me then became the title 776 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,919 Speaker 1: because that was what this five year process was of 777 00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:25,120 Speaker 1: doing any and everything I possibly could to take care 778 00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,640 Speaker 1: of myself in ways that quite frankly, no one else 779 00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,920 Speaker 1: ever did. And that's the beauty I think of trauma 780 00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:34,520 Speaker 1: recovery when you said, you know, no therapists can do 781 00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:36,799 Speaker 1: it like I had to do it. I had to 782 00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,799 Speaker 1: rescue myself and and this book is that is that 783 00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,920 Speaker 1: journey where it started and where it took me and um, 784 00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:48,520 Speaker 1: as honestly as I can articulate every step along the way, 785 00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,920 Speaker 1: UM is is Yeah, what what this book is? I'm 786 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,200 Speaker 1: so proud of it, to be honest, Yes, the hardest 787 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,640 Speaker 1: thing I've ever done and the most healing and helpful 788 00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:03,120 Speaker 1: thing I've ever done, so it goes it's names. Yes, well, 789 00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:05,160 Speaker 1: I'm gonna put the link to the book in the 790 00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,680 Speaker 1: description of this podcast. But where else can people find you? 791 00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,040 Speaker 1: I know I've mentioned your Instagram a couple of times, 792 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:15,200 Speaker 1: So where are you on Instagram? Uh at Ingrid Clayton 793 00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:20,360 Speaker 1: PhD s my name on Instagram and on my website 794 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,680 Speaker 1: which is also just my name Ingrid Clayton dot com. 795 00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,239 Speaker 1: You can get on my mailing list, and I think 796 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,680 Speaker 1: at some point I'll be doing some workshops in the future. 797 00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,600 Speaker 1: There's little little evidence of that starting to pop up, 798 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,520 Speaker 1: but um, nothing solid yet. But if people want to 799 00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,279 Speaker 1: stay in the loop, that's probably the best way is 800 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,000 Speaker 1: to get on the mailing list. Okay, and then for 801 00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:42,480 Speaker 1: people listening that I know I think I've seen on 802 00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,160 Speaker 1: your Instagram. You're not taking any more personal clients right now. 803 00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,799 Speaker 1: So if there are people listening that are resonating with 804 00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,520 Speaker 1: what you're saying, or you know, my story or your story, 805 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,920 Speaker 1: what do you recommend, Like, what is a good first 806 00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:58,440 Speaker 1: tangible step that we can tell people. Yeah, that's such 807 00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:02,319 Speaker 1: a great question. So there are several things. Um. One 808 00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,160 Speaker 1: is to follow your curiosity, and so if you're like, oh, 809 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,720 Speaker 1: trauma responses like, that's I don't really know that language. 810 00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:11,799 Speaker 1: I think social media is a great way to dive in, 811 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,960 Speaker 1: Like look at hashtag trauma response. What is fawning the 812 00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,319 Speaker 1: flight response? Like, so start to get more information that way. 813 00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:23,719 Speaker 1: I also think Pete Walker's work on complex trauma. He's 814 00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:27,200 Speaker 1: a therapist and author. His website is like chock full 815 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:31,680 Speaker 1: of just great information. Um I think it's dashwalker dot com. 816 00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:35,719 Speaker 1: Um so getting more information? What is this nervous system regulation? 817 00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,080 Speaker 1: How are people doing that? There's a lot that we 818 00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:41,360 Speaker 1: can do on our own, and I just love that. 819 00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,800 Speaker 1: I find it so empowering that you can start exactly 820 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:48,760 Speaker 1: as you are, where you are, how you are, and 821 00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:52,560 Speaker 1: if you are looking to maybe get some more direct 822 00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:56,280 Speaker 1: one on one support and have access to therapy. UM 823 00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,359 Speaker 1: I say, bring that same curiosity and go, oh, well, 824 00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:03,720 Speaker 1: what's this m DR thing? That sounds interesting? And um 825 00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:07,040 Speaker 1: I say, if you're in the States, because it's different 826 00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:09,280 Speaker 1: outside of the States, but if you're in the States, 827 00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:15,000 Speaker 1: the Psychology Today Therapist directory is pretty comprehensive, so it's 828 00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,520 Speaker 1: all over the country. You can just type in your 829 00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:23,640 Speaker 1: zip code and then someone's specialty. So in trauma and 830 00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:26,440 Speaker 1: then you can read their bios. But I would then 831 00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,640 Speaker 1: call the therapist and I would say, I think what 832 00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:34,120 Speaker 1: I'm talking about is complex trauma, which is also synonymous 833 00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:39,120 Speaker 1: with relational trauma, childhood trauma, developmental trauma. UM do you 834 00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:41,560 Speaker 1: work with that? And if the answer is yes, then 835 00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,480 Speaker 1: you can say how do you work with that? And 836 00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:50,000 Speaker 1: they should have at least one specific trauma training on 837 00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,120 Speaker 1: their tool belt and that can be E, M, D 838 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:57,680 Speaker 1: R Somatic experiencing. CBT has some specific trauma therapies UM 839 00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:00,719 Speaker 1: internal family systems, so they should have at least one, 840 00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,319 Speaker 1: if not a couple at their disposal, and then they 841 00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,600 Speaker 1: should be able to tell you why is that effective? Right? So, 842 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,719 Speaker 1: every nervous system is different, every person is different. But 843 00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:14,520 Speaker 1: I think just being able to ask these questions about like, well, 844 00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:16,160 Speaker 1: what do you do and why do you think it 845 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,560 Speaker 1: would be helpful. I think oftentimes clients don't realize they're 846 00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:23,920 Speaker 1: allowed to ask all of these questions, right, what does 847 00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:26,440 Speaker 1: it mean that you're a trauma therapist? What does that 848 00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:29,560 Speaker 1: mean to me? And then if the narcissistic abuse piece 849 00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:32,480 Speaker 1: is also part of your story or do you suspect 850 00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:34,320 Speaker 1: that it might be? I would ask if they also 851 00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:39,239 Speaker 1: have experience with that or at least with emotional abuse, um, 852 00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:41,920 Speaker 1: because it is a specific thing also, and so to 853 00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:44,520 Speaker 1: know that you're working with someone who who has some 854 00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:49,200 Speaker 1: sense of that is really helpful. Yeah. Yeah, those are 855 00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,000 Speaker 1: great tips you guys. I'm gonna put all the links 856 00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:54,600 Speaker 1: that we discussed in the description of this podcast. Thank 857 00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:56,360 Speaker 1: you so much. This was I know, this was so 858 00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:58,440 Speaker 1: validating for me and I just I feel like I 859 00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,319 Speaker 1: could talk to you for a million year yours, So 860 00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:03,240 Speaker 1: maybe we'll have to have you back. Oh I'm so enjoyed. 861 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:07,400 Speaker 1: It feels so genuine and real, and thank you for 862 00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:09,960 Speaker 1: asking me to come. It's been nothing but a pleasure. 863 00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:13,120 Speaker 1: Oh great, I'm so glad and you guys, thank you 864 00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:16,200 Speaker 1: so much for listening. Go check out Ingrid on Instagram. 865 00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,120 Speaker 1: She's got great videos and it's a good way to 866 00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:19,920 Speaker 1: another good way to dip your toe in. And if 867 00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,399 Speaker 1: you have any of this stuff interests you, so Ingrid, 868 00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:24,280 Speaker 1: thank you so much, and thank you guys for listening. 869 00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:27,920 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to The Velvet's Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson, 870 00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:30,600 Speaker 1: where we believe everyone has a little velvet and a 871 00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:34,800 Speaker 1: little edge. Subscribe for more conversations on life, style, beauty 872 00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:38,560 Speaker 1: and relationships. Search Velvet's Edge wherever you get your podcasts