1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I'm Akshatrati. This week big trucks, big money, 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: and a very big bet on batteries. Out of the many, 3 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: many different organizations working on climate, you probably haven't heard 4 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: of the Loan Program's Office, but you definitely have heard 5 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: of the company it helped fund, Tesla. The Loan Program's Office, 6 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: or LPO, was set up in two thousand and five 7 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: under the US Department of Energy. In its early days, 8 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: it was assigned as much as twenty five billion dollars 9 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,520 Speaker 1: to give as loans to help scale up innovative technologies. 10 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 1: The LPO played a crucial role in helping save major 11 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: US companies and even budding startups from bankruptcy during the 12 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,639 Speaker 1: fallout of the two thousand and eight financial crisis. One 13 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: of those loans was to a small all electric car 14 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: maker named Tesla, giving them four hundred and sixty five 15 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: million dollars to help produce the model S. That was 16 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: back in twenty ten, and since then the LPO has 17 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: had some failures too. One big loan of five hundred 18 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: and thirty five million dollars to a solar company called 19 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: Cylindra could never be recovered, and the program was effectively 20 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,919 Speaker 1: put on pause under the presidency of Donald Trump. Now 21 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: it is back and supercharged. Since the Inflation Reduction Act 22 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 1: was signed last summer, the LPO has been given the 23 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: authority to issue some four hundred billion dollars in loans, 24 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 1: all to scale up climate tech. The person who heads 25 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: the LPO and sits on that pile of cash is Jiggershaw, 26 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: and he comes to zero with an exclusive. The LPO 27 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: is announcing a conditional commitment to loan nine point two 28 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,919 Speaker 1: billion dollars to Blue Oval sk a joint venture between 29 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: US car maker Ford Motor Company and South Korean battery 30 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: Giant sk On. Jigger is an entrepreneur, and in two 31 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,919 Speaker 1: thousand and three he founded the solar company son Edison, 32 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: then sold it for two hundred million dollars in two 33 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: thousand and nine. Now he finds himself on the other 34 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: side of the equation, giving money to entrepreneurs for projects 35 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 1: that reduce emissions. I asked Jigger how he chooses which 36 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: technology is to fund, why the US government is giving 37 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: so much money to big car companies, and what company 38 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: will be the next Tesla? Now you're responsible for nearly 39 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: four hundred billion dollars to be deployed for climate solutions. 40 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: But before we get to the details of that gob 41 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: smacking sum, you started out in solar in the early 42 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,679 Speaker 1: two thousands. How did you go from being an entrepreneur 43 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: to running such a large government program? 44 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it certainly wasn't in the life plan 45 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 2: that I wrote for myself. They're only two thousands and 46 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 2: so it was not a direct straight line. But I 47 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 2: do think that there's a pattern here. I think when 48 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 2: you think about solar in the early two thousands, there 49 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 2: are many banks out there that really thought that the 50 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 2: technology was too risky to invest in. And the technology 51 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 2: frankly hasn't changed that much from a risk standpoint. It 52 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 2: certainly has gotten more efficient and lasts longer and all 53 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 2: those things. But today you can still see solar panels 54 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 2: that were installed in Germany in two thousand and three 55 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,399 Speaker 2: that continue to operate well twenty years later, right under 56 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 2: that feed and tariff program that they had, and Japan 57 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 2: had something similar with their ten thousand roosts program in Spain, 58 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 2: and so that technology itself is actually quite stable and 59 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 2: has been stable since roughly nineteen ninety two. But getting 60 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 2: banks to actually pay attention and not be scared of. 61 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 2: It was something that I had to live in the 62 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 2: first person, right because I started a company called sun Edison, 63 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: and that company was designed to attract capital and provide 64 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 2: no money down financing to customers right under a power 65 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 2: purchase agreement. And so I got told no a lot 66 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 2: in terms of investors. And you know, instead of getting 67 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 2: pissed off, my tack was to figure out, why, when 68 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 2: this technology is so stable and it's been around for 69 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 2: so long, why are they not even giving me a chance? 70 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 2: And in the end, we were able to develop a 71 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 2: financing model that got not only Goldman Sachs to fund, 72 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 2: but Wells Fargo and other folks to fund. And today 73 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 2: over a trillion dollars of capital has been put behind 74 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 2: the financial model that we created. 75 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: The model that Jigger created at sun Edison was the 76 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:44,119 Speaker 1: solar purchase power agreement, basically a way of making solar 77 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: panels more affordable. In the early two thousands, installing solar 78 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: in the US was much more expensive than it is today, 79 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: and the upfront cost meant that not many people or 80 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: companies could afford it. So sun Edison came up with 81 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: a solution. It would install the solar panels and maintain them, 82 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: and the customers wouldn't pay money upfront. Sun Edison kept 83 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: the ownership and made money by selling the electricity the 84 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: panels produced to the customer, usually at a cheaper price 85 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: than electricity of the grid. The customers saved money straight 86 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: away and could power their home or business with clean energy. 87 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: Sun Edison got a steady income guaranteed by twenty year contracts. 88 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: The model was a massive hit in the US and 89 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: gained the attention of banks like Goldman, Sachs and Wells Fargo. 90 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 1: They saw this guaranteed income as an easy way to 91 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: make money and began financing solar projects. 92 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 2: It's that journey, I would say that led me to 93 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 2: as an engineer, get interested in you know, why do 94 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 2: people allocate capital to commercializing energy technology? 95 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 1: And so now you're in charge of the Department of 96 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: Energy's Loan Programs office, and people come to you just 97 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: as you had gone to people to ask for money. 98 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: So how is it being on the other side of 99 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: the equation helping you not just make the decisions, but 100 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: also put yourself in the mindset of somebody coming to 101 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: you for the money. 102 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, I try very hard to 103 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 2: retain that empathy around saying, you know, but for a 104 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 2: couple of things that went my way, right, I'd be 105 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: the person on the other side right, asking for the money, 106 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 2: and how would I like to be treated. That doesn't 107 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 2: mean that you say yes to everybody, obviously, but it 108 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 2: does mean that, you know, we take the time, in 109 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 2: this particular iteration of the Loan Program's Office to explain 110 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 2: to people why we're passing on their approach or their technology, 111 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 2: or what the deficiencies are in their application that need 112 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 2: to be corrected for us to be able to consider 113 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 2: their application right. And so we try very hard to 114 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 2: recognize that not everyone worked on Wall Street for twenty years, 115 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,679 Speaker 2: myself included, and so we try not to use jargon 116 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 2: like buyside and sell side or all these other things 117 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 2: that people say, and they assume that people actually understand 118 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 2: what those terms mean, but in fact, most people are 119 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 2: nodding their head and leaving the conversation with no idea 120 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 2: what they did wrong and how to correct their approach. 121 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 2: And so we try really hard to be empathetic to that. 122 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: You mentioned this iteration of the Loan Program's Office, and 123 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: that's an interesting way of phrasing it, because obviously the 124 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: Loan Program's office has gone through different presidencies and has 125 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: behaved differently under those presidencies. But the thing it's most 126 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: famous for is loaning four hundred and sixty five million 127 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: dollars to Tesla at just the right time, keeping the 128 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: company afloat, allowing it to become the electric car giant 129 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: that it is today. In this iteration, there is a 130 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: flood of money coming into climate tech, and Tesla if 131 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: it was in that situation today wouldn't really struggle for money. 132 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: So what exactly is different about the money your office 133 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: is giving out compared to other forms of capital that 134 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: climate entrepreneurs can access. 135 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think that in two thousand and eight, 136 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 2: a few things were happening, right. You know, we ad 137 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 2: a financial crisis, so that clearly made it so that 138 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 2: credit was difficult to find. But also in general, I 139 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 2: think that the mood in two thousand and eight was 140 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 2: that electric cars were unlikely to be successful. So when 141 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 2: we ad on Tesla, it was not in an enabling environment. 142 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 2: That environment was one where people thought that electric vehicles 143 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 2: had no place right today, the reason you're suggesting that 144 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 2: people can borrow money for electric vehicles is because Tesla 145 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 2: is so successful and it is worth many hundreds of 146 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 2: billions of dollars, and so there is a feeling by 147 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 2: private sector investors that if they invest in the next 148 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 2: generation of electric vehicle companies right that they might actually 149 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 2: get a similar rate of return. The goal for US 150 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 2: is to make sure that people who are pursuing projects 151 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 2: at speed and scale in the private sector have a 152 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 2: place to go to be able to get the debt 153 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 2: that they need to move their project confidently forward. The 154 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 2: four hundred billion dollars has a few different programs, right. 155 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 2: So it's the Innovative Clean Energy Programs, which is where 156 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 2: we're providing liquidity to technologies that really can't get it 157 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 2: anywhere else. You have the Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing Program, 158 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 2: and then you have the Tribal Energy Loan Program, where 159 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 2: there's no innovation required. It's really about helping the tribes 160 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 2: to participate in the clinergy revolution. We separately have this 161 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 2: seventeen oh six program, which is the Energy Infrastructure Reinvestment Program, 162 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 2: and in that program, we're really helping companies who have 163 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 2: existing coal plants, natural gas plants, oil and gas pipelines, refineries, 164 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 2: et cetera. Transition those assets so that they can be 165 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 2: relevant in the energy transition for the next fifty years. 166 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 2: Some folks are converting coal plants to nuclear plants. Others 167 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 2: are upgrading transmission lines from old wire to new wire 168 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 2: that can handle two to three times the amount of 169 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 2: electricity transmission. You know. Other are looking at virtual power plants. 170 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 2: The vast majority of investors have no interest in being first, second, third, 171 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 2: or even sixth right. They want to be seventh. So 172 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 2: the real role that we're playing here is a liquidity 173 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 2: role for people who really can't get debt from any 174 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 2: other sources. 175 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 1: You're running the Loan Program's Office under Joe Biden's presidency, 176 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:26,319 Speaker 1: and clearly it's got a big mandate. But under Donald Trump, 177 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: the LBOLI dormant for five years, and you know, five 178 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: years is a long time in the gold to reach 179 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: net zero. So how are you making up for lost time? 180 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 2: Well, there's nothing I can really do to make up 181 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 2: for lost time. I think that ultimately, during that period 182 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: of dormancy really for the office, there were many companies 183 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 2: who needed this liquidity function who weren't able to find it, 184 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 2: so ultimately they were delayed in terms of commercializing their technology. Today, 185 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,599 Speaker 2: we are, you know, making sure that people know that 186 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 2: we're open for business. And for those companies who have 187 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 2: continued to survive and have been able to get the 188 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 2: equity necessary to continue to operate as a company, they've 189 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 2: come into Loan Program's office. 190 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: We're going to be talking about equity and debt a 191 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: lot in this episode. Simply put, equity is the money 192 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: you can put into a company in return for shares. 193 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: The company may or may not provide dividends on those shares, 194 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 1: but the risky bet can pay off if the share 195 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: price rockets. Debt is a more conservative investment. It's effectively 196 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: a loan to the company which the company has to 197 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: pay back with interest if the company goes bust. Typically, 198 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: debt investors get paid first. As the name suggests, the 199 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: Loan Program's office deals in debt, not equity. 200 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 2: So today we see about five hundred billion dollars in 201 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 2: projects in the US across many many sectors that are 202 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 2: seeking debt from our office, either in pre consultation or 203 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 2: in an actual loan application that we've received. You know, 204 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 2: that gives us a lot of validation that the program 205 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 2: is needed to really unlock this commercialization and ultimately the 206 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 2: best time to work on commercialization is yesterday. So we're 207 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 2: working hard to help people today to be able to 208 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 2: prove their technology and then you know, hopefully get commercial 209 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 2: banks around the world comfortable with that technology so that 210 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 2: they can take it from here. 211 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: So today we have an exclusive on zero about the 212 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: biggest loan that LPO is giving out. It's a nine 213 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 1: point two billion dollar loan to Blue Oval, which is 214 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: a joint venture between Ford Motor Company and ESK, which 215 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: is a giant battery company, and that partnership is going 216 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: to enable Forward to access batteries that it's going to 217 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: need for its scale up of EVS. What made you 218 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: choose this particular project. 219 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 2: Well, the Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing Program is designed to 220 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:03,319 Speaker 2: onshore and reshore all of these manufacturing plants here in 221 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 2: the United States, right, So the goal of the program 222 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 2: is not innovation, but the goal of the program is 223 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 2: really to get more of the supply chain to be 224 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 2: manufactured in the United States. And I think that when 225 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 2: you think about these next generation batteries that sk is 226 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 2: featuring and Ford is partnering on, you're talking about what 227 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 2: really is needed to get mass adoption and mass acceptance 228 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 2: from American buyers of vehicles. Right, as you know, the 229 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 2: top selling vehicle in the United States is the Ford 230 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 2: F one to fifty truck. 231 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 3: It's a driving experience that's pure, unfiltered exhilaration in the 232 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 3: moment you hit the accelerator. Oh and it's an F 233 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 3: one fifty introducing the all electric F one fifty Lightning. 234 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: And you know, I think through the F one fifty 235 00:13:55,120 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 2: Lightning announcement, Ford has really captured the imagination of new 236 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 2: set of buyers of electric vehicles. And you know, I 237 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 2: think when you think about the President's goal by twenty 238 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 2: thirty of half of all vehicles really being electric. 239 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 4: I'm signing an executive order setting out a target of 240 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 4: fifty percent of all passenger vehicles sold by twenty thirty 241 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 4: will be electric. 242 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: And we need. 243 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 4: Automakers and other companies to keep investing in America. We 244 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 4: need them not to take the benefits of our public 245 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 4: investments and expand electric vehicles and battery manufacturing production abroad. 246 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 2: This is an extraordinary thing, right. We would need eight 247 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 2: hundred gigawo hours of battery capacity to be able to 248 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 2: meet that goal with pure battery electric vehicles, and today 249 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 2: this announcement adds somewhere in the neighborhood around one hundred 250 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: and twenty gigo what hours of additional capacity, which is 251 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 2: pretty substantial along the goal of where we're trying to 252 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 2: get to. 253 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: How much in gigo doars is the capacity in the 254 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: US today? 255 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 2: Today we have about sixty or so that are operating 256 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 2: by Tesla. GM Ltm, of course, is also building about 257 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty to one hundred and thirty gig 258 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 2: one hours of battery capacity. Their first plant in Ohio 259 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 2: is reached the threshold of I think about sixty percent 260 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 2: of their employees that they need there have been hired. 261 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 2: These plants by Blue Oval are ramping up today, so 262 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 2: they will take a little bit of time before they 263 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 2: come online. But the goal here is by twenty twenty 264 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 2: five to really have a very robust battery manufacturing business 265 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 2: here in the United States, to be able to supply 266 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 2: batteries to all the electric vehicles that consumers are demanding. 267 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: And this commitment right now is conditional. Can you define 268 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: what it means and what type of conditions does Blue 269 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: Will need to meet before it can access that money. 270 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, it depends on the borrower in this particular case, 271 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 2: I think that the conditions are quite modest. Right there 272 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 2: paperwork requirements that need be completed to be able to 273 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 2: close alone. For other applicants, they might agree to conditions like, hey, 274 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 2: you know, we have suggested that our technology will operate 275 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 2: in this fashion, and that we will not close alone 276 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 2: until the technology operates in that fashion. And other applicants, 277 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 2: the conditional commitment is an important stage gate for them 278 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 2: because it proves that the US government has gone first, 279 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 2: that we've evaluated their technology, that we believe that it 280 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 2: actually works, and then they're going to use that conditional 281 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 2: compment to go out and raise equity, complete the rest 282 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 2: of the milestones, and then come to us for a 283 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 2: close right. And so the conditional commitment is conditional. But 284 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 2: for some applications it's just a step to the closing, 285 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 2: and for others it's a really significant point of departure 286 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: where they have to do a lot of other big steps. 287 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: And you explained that the goal of LBO is to 288 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: provide capital that companies or startups or entrepreneurs wouldn't be 289 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: able to access from private markets. Now, is it true 290 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: that Ford, a giant car company with a steady source 291 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 1: of revenue could not secure loans to build the eleven 292 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: billion dollars worth of battery factories that this nine billion 293 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 1: dollar loan, conditional as it is, is going to support. 294 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 2: It's a great question, you know. When I was saying that, 295 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 2: I was really referring more to the innovative side of 296 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 2: our house. Switch to Title seventeen. This one is in 297 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 2: the Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing Program. So this access to 298 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 2: capital is not the same requirement here in ATVM. You know, 299 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 2: the requirement here is that they're planning on onshooring and 300 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 2: reshoring capacity that otherwise may have been put into another 301 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 2: country and then imported. Right. But even there, what I 302 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 2: would say is even for Ford Motor Company, when you 303 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 2: think about what this transition looks like, Ford is going 304 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 2: to have to spend, I think they themselves have talked 305 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 2: about upwards above twenty five billion dollars to be able 306 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 2: to make this transition. That's a lot of money, even 307 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 2: for Ford Motor Company. And so you can imagine if 308 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 2: they did it purely on Wall Street, without using our program, 309 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 2: that the terms may have been quite a bit less favorable, 310 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 2: to the point where Ford would have to think twice 311 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 2: about whether they could make the transition at the speed 312 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 2: and scale necessary for what we need to combat climate change. 313 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 1: After the break, the Loan Program's Office was mothballed under 314 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 1: the Trump presidency with all this new money to give 315 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: out to climate tech. Is Jigger worried it will happen 316 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: again if Trump comes back. How many applications do you 317 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: have in the pipeline right now? You know what percentage 318 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: of them do you expect to approve? Can you give 319 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: us a detail on the types of projects as well? 320 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: You know what technology that you're touching. 321 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 2: So the Loan Program's Office has a formal application process. 322 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 2: So we have one hundred and forty one companies or 323 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 2: projects that have formally applied to the Loan Program's Office 324 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 2: across about one hundred and sixty five locations, and that 325 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 2: amounts to a request from US of abound one hundred 326 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 2: and twenty billion dollars worth of debt. And so if 327 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 2: you think about this as a fifty to fifty equity 328 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 2: debt ratio, then it's roughly two hundred and fifty billion 329 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 2: dollars for the projects. Probably only a third of those 330 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 2: applications are represented by people who have closed debt before. 331 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 2: And you know have all of their paperwork in place, 332 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,120 Speaker 2: independent engineer reports, feed studies, things that you would expect 333 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 2: to before you build a two billion dollar project that 334 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 2: you would need to have completed, right. And so those 335 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 2: are going to confidently get through the program, I think 336 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 2: within the next twelve to fifteen months, and then the 337 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 2: rest of the projects they have to be invited to 338 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 2: come into loan program's office. So we believe all one 339 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 2: hundred and forty one projects are capable of successfully getting 340 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 2: money out of our program. Otherwise we wouldn't have invited 341 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 2: them to apply. But you know, some of those folks, 342 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 2: they're closing commercial debt for the first time, so you know, 343 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 2: they find our data request to be offensive. You know, 344 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 2: they're like, just believe in us, And I was like, well, 345 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 2: I'm not supposed to believe in you. I'm supposed to 346 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 2: verify the information directly, right. Or we're having a hard 347 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,880 Speaker 2: time raising the ten million dollars necessary to complete these 348 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 2: independent gay reports or feed studies or things, right, and 349 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 2: so then they have to go out and raise that money. 350 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 2: So some of them are delayed, but we do believe 351 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 2: that they'll get through the office. And then we have 352 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 2: another roughly same number of projects that are sitting in 353 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 2: pre consultation where the potential applicant hasn't applied yet. But 354 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 2: you know, we're talking to them and we're quite bullish 355 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 2: about the technology and the project that they're pursuing. 356 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 1: But the timeline surely has to be one that you're 357 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: focused on, because you've told Bloomberg previously that Energy Secretary 358 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 1: Jennifer Grehnholm opens up every meeting with how many days 359 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: we've been in office and how many days are left. 360 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: So are you worried that if a Republican president is 361 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: elected in twenty twenty four that the LPO will be 362 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: mothballed again and all this money that is crucial for 363 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: the transition will just sit on the sidelines. 364 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 2: I'm more inspired by the applicants that I am about. 365 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 2: You know, political timeline, right, I mean, these applicants have 366 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 2: a burn rate, So every month I take that's longer 367 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 2: then it should take means that they're burning more cash 368 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 2: and they might go out of business before we can 369 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 2: help them. Separately to your question, I'd say that I 370 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 2: think that this office in particular has fairly universal support 371 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 2: from the political parties, not because of any sort of 372 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 2: personality thing. I don't think it's me that they like. 373 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 2: It's more that you know, we are uniformly funding everything, right, So, 374 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 2: whether it's nuclear power or carbon sequestration in storage, or 375 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 2: hydrogen or next generation wind or whatnot. Every single member 376 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 2: of Congress, every single Senator, every single politician, every mayor 377 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 2: in the United States has a project that they want 378 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 2: to happen in their district, in their community. 379 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: Some of the lpo's most successful loans, some of which 380 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: we've talked about already, are to car manufacturers. These have 381 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: had wide reaching impacts making batteries much cheaper, but a 382 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 1: lot of these cars are let's say, not efficient. I mean, yes, 383 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: the F one fifty is the most selling vehicle in America, 384 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: and having an F one fifty lightning and electric version 385 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 1: is crucial, but it's also a massive truck. So are 386 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: there any plans to use some of lpo's big money 387 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: to go to a public transportation. 388 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question, right, I mean I think 389 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 2: that we can, you know, have all sorts of ideas 390 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 2: and dreams here at the Loan Program's office, and we 391 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 2: do have the authority, I think, to be able to 392 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 2: fund public transit. But remember where private sector led government enabled, right, 393 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 2: So the private sector has to come to us with 394 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 2: a public transit application, which which I have currently not received, 395 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 2: but you can imagine one coming. So you can imagine 396 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 2: a downtown saying, you know, we want to reduce car 397 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 2: congestion by eighty percent, and so we're going to have 398 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 2: these more efficient ways to move people around downtown, and 399 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 2: we're going to spend three hundred million dollars on it. 400 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 2: It's going to save this much greenhouse gas emission, it's 401 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 2: going to be powered by electricity, it's going to do 402 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 2: all these things. But someone has to dream about it. 403 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 2: I think people have dreamed about it, and people have 404 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 2: been told that, sorry, your dreams are not that practical, right, 405 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 2: These are not things that you know, America, who loves 406 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 2: their cars, are willing to do. And you know, I 407 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 2: think that's patently false. I think Americans are inspired by 408 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 2: big dreamers, right, And so I think if someone said, look, 409 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 2: we need a new model for urban planning, and that 410 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 2: new model is this new form of transportation, and oh, 411 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 2: by the way, it's going to reduce people's overall cost 412 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 2: of getting around by ninety percent because it's not a 413 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 2: cheap thing to own a car of any type right 414 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 2: in tonalobush or electric for that matter. And then you 415 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 2: have the parking, and you have all sorts of things. 416 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 2: I mean, in some cities forty percent of the entire 417 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,120 Speaker 2: land of the city is basically donated to parking spaces 418 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 2: and roads. That seems like a poor use of land. 419 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 2: You probably want to use that land for something more productive. 420 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 2: But that dream has to come from the entrepreneur, it 421 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 2: can't come from us. 422 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,640 Speaker 1: We talked about the Tesla case. Obviously, Tesla succeeded as 423 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: a company, but at the same time LPO gave out 424 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: this loan to Cylindra, which was a solar company that 425 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: went past, and you couldn't recover the money that you 426 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 1: had loaned to them. You've come at a different time 427 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: in the transition. But how do you think of risk 428 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: as a factor in making your decision? Because you're taking 429 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: some technology risk in some cases, you're taking other types 430 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 1: of risk in other cases, and the criticisms will come 431 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: to you because you're a taxpayer funded institution. So how 432 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 1: do you balance it all? 433 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 2: Well, So, in the wake of that loan, we were 434 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 2: given a lot of unsolicited let's say, and we've implemented 435 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 2: almost all of the suggestions that were given to us, 436 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 2: and many of them were quite good suggestions. 437 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 1: Right. 438 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: So when you think about what happened in that loan, well, 439 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 2: one was we only had twelve employees or so at 440 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 2: the time that we give the loan out. Today we 441 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 2: have two hundred and fifty or so, and so you know, 442 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 2: I think we're well staffed. We didn't have you know, 443 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 2: separate risk departments and portfolio management departments. It's hard to 444 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 2: have many departments with twelve people. So you know, we 445 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 2: now have a risk department and a portfolio management department, 446 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 2: and so I can in my opinion, you know, Clendra 447 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 2: wouldn't have gotten through this iteration of the Loan Program's 448 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 2: Office for a couple of reasons, right. One is that 449 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 2: the Loan Program's Office doesn't take real technology risk anymore, 450 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 2: or we never should we take perceived technology risk, right, 451 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 2: So the technology has to be ready for primetime, and 452 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 2: we can validate that with the ten thousand engineer, scientists 453 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 2: and experts on our platform. And you know Slender's case 454 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 2: even today that technology doesn't work. The second thing is 455 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 2: that in the vast majority of our loans we do 456 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 2: now we make the equity come in first and then 457 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 2: the debt comes in second. Right, So that's another way 458 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 2: to de risk these technologies. And we've had other failures 459 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 2: we have a bound Solar or Fisker automotive or you 460 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 2: know ton empower or some of the other projects that 461 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 2: we've had, but in each of those cases, we've averaged 462 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 2: roughly fifty cents on the dollar of recoveries back to us. Right. 463 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 2: So I do think that the risk management approach that 464 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 2: we're taking is working. That doesn't mean we're not going 465 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,719 Speaker 2: to lose money, right as I just suggested, Like we 466 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 2: will in some cases only recover fifty cents on the dollar, 467 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 2: And that's okay. That is our mandate is to go first, right, 468 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 2: Like you know, our mandate is not to be so 469 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 2: risk averse that we're not helping anybody. We have to 470 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 2: lean in and help people. One validation here is that 471 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 2: I think the program has really been looked at as 472 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 2: being so successful to date that you see governments around 473 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 2: the world now looking to copy the model because they 474 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 2: think that it's actually a very unique model that their 475 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 2: own entrepreneurs and innovators need. 476 00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: Which countries have copied it already. 477 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 2: I've copied it yet that I know of, but we 478 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 2: certainly have gotten reach outs from many countries that are 479 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 2: saying we need something similar. We have this problem where 480 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 2: our research and development institutions get a technology all the 481 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 2: way to demonstration and then the commercial banks don't pick 482 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 2: it up to finish the process right, and so we 483 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,880 Speaker 2: need this middle thing. So I think that I think 484 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 2: there are many that are considering. 485 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 1: Can you name any I will not, okay. 486 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 2: Because I think it is for them to name, but 487 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 2: I appreciate that we've gotten to the point now I 488 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 2: think what the Loan Program's Office is believed to be 489 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 2: a model worth replicating. 490 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: You made this important distinction between technology risk and perceived 491 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: technology risk. Could you talk us through maybe an example, 492 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: maybe a failure where that distinction is clear to you 493 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: and has been the way for you to be able 494 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: to make a decision whether that project got the money 495 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: from the Loan Program's Office or not. 496 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 2: Most of the information is business confidential, so I won't 497 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 2: be able to answer the question in the way that 498 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,400 Speaker 2: I think you posed it, but maybe I can attempt 499 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 2: to try. So. The model of the materials deal. They're 500 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 2: using methane pyroalysis right with a plasma. 501 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: Torch Monolith Materials is the first company to work out 502 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 1: how to use a technique called methane pyrolysis to create 503 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 1: hydrogen at commercial scale. The process uses a superheated plasma 504 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: torch to split a methane molecule into carbon and hydrogen 505 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: without creating carbon dioxide. The two are then separated, with 506 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: the hydrogen used as fuel or as feedstock for fertilizer 507 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: and the carbon black used to make car tires or 508 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: graphite for batteries. Monolith Materials was offered a conditional loan 509 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: of one billion dollars from the LBO in December twenty 510 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: twenty one to expand its facility in Nebraska. 511 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 2: We don't take will it work, won't at work risk. 512 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 2: That is sister programs within the pro Energy that demonstrate technology. 513 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 2: But in that case we are taking execution risk, and 514 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 2: it's a real risk, right. I mean, there are some 515 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 2: management teams that you just get wrong. They fail to 516 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 2: execute properly. But the risk that we don't take is 517 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 2: the will it work won't it work? When we go 518 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 2: back to our scientists, they have to confidently say, oh no, 519 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,719 Speaker 2: this works. We've demonstrated it these five times, like we 520 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 2: know and Frankly, many of our scientists actually are the 521 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 2: patent holder for that technology. 522 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 4: Right. 523 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 2: DOOE has funded many of these technologies for forty five 524 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 2: plus years. Right, So we know whether something will work 525 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 2: or won't work, We just don't know whether they can 526 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 2: execute well. 527 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: One of the many technologies that you do support through 528 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: the office is common capture and storage. That technology has 529 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: had a long history. Again broadly, the technology is more 530 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: than fifty years old and has had success in one variety, 531 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: which is to enhance oil recovery, which it can do 532 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: very well, but has had failures in other places, either 533 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: technology failures or just execution failures. With common capture, every 534 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: plant seems to have its own quirk. It needs to 535 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: be tweaked to the type of gas, It needs to 536 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: be built at a facility that already has a bunch 537 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: of infrastructures, So you have to plan the design specifically. 538 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: Where do you capture it, how do you transport it, 539 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: where do you sequester it? Do you think the cost 540 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: can ever go down as quickly as it did for 541 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: other technologies. 542 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean there are still 543 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 2: learning curves that apply here. Right, So, first of a 544 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 2: kind deployment will always have extraordinarily conservative assumptions. You get 545 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 2: to engineering excellence in projects two through six. What the 546 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 2: private sector is interested in funding today, which they're assuming 547 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 2: they will fund about one hundred and forty one million 548 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 2: tons a year of sequestration in the US by the 549 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 2: end of the decade, is largely industrial processes that already 550 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 2: have a concentrated cootwo stream that comes out, so they're 551 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 2: not doing the concentration like you would at a coal 552 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 2: plant or natural gas plant, but instead they're just taking 553 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 2: a pure CO two stream that comes out of ethanol 554 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 2: or ammonia production or natural gas processing, putting it into 555 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 2: a CO two pipeline, and then depositing it into a 556 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 2: Class six well, which we've been doing for over twelve 557 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 2: years with AIGHTM in the state of Illinois. 558 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: In the US, wells that are used for injecting common 559 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: dioxide into the ground have to get approved by the 560 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: Environmental Protection Agency. Class six welts are designed for long 561 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: term storage of common dioxide deep underground and qualify for 562 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: certain tax credits. They also need to meet strict regulations, 563 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: including protecting underground water sources. Currently, only two Class six 564 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: welts have been approved in the US, both operated by 565 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: ADM in Illinois. 566 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 2: So in general, I would say that where the private 567 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 2: sector's comfort level is is in an area where the 568 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 2: technology has already been demonstrated but has not been scaled up. 569 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 2: And so that's what we're seeing the bulk of the one 570 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 2: hundred and forty one million tons coming from. Now. We 571 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 2: have grant programs that will provide direct air capture grants 572 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 2: and first of a kind deployments at natural gas plants 573 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 2: and coal plants, et cetera. But those projects by definition 574 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 2: or demonstration projects, right, so they're not expected to be 575 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 2: commercially viable. They're expected to demonstrate a technology at scale 576 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 2: so that we can determine whether we should build the 577 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 2: next one or the one after that, etc. And so 578 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 2: it's in the pursuit of science. I think it's important though, 579 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 2: to note the International Energy Agency as well as DOE, 580 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 2: has put out reports saying here are all the technologies 581 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 2: that we need to meet the climate crisis, and carbon 582 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 2: capture and sigstration is one of them. So we have 583 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 2: to get it right. I mean, we can't just say 584 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 2: let's ignore it right. The same thing is true for 585 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 2: nuclear power or for hydrogen. Some of these areas are 586 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 2: more difficult, and we need to solve the commercialization conundrum 587 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 2: for all of them. Right. That is the mandate and 588 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 2: the charter that the Loan Program's Office has, and certainly 589 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,719 Speaker 2: the mandate the DOE has. What we aren't doing at 590 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 2: DOE is telling everybody what to scale up. Right, the 591 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 2: private sector determines that DOE is here to make sure 592 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 2: that technologies are already so we have a suite of 593 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 2: technologies to meet the climate change moment, not to decide 594 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 2: exactly which pathway we're going to take. 595 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: Most of my conversations are with people who are investing 596 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: real sums of money toward the transition, but the gap 597 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: between the billions they spend and the trillions that are 598 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: needed is usually huge. Today, I get to speak to 599 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: you who has hundreds of billions of dollars to put 600 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,719 Speaker 1: to work, and the gap between the hundreds of billions 601 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: and trillions is actually quite small. So are there ways 602 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: in which you are using that money and you have 603 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: this multiplier effect to turn your hundreds of billions into 604 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: the trillions? 605 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it's a return to the start 606 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 2: of our conversation, right, which is when I started Son 607 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 2: Edison you know, I asked a bunch of seemingly dumb 608 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 2: questions around who gets paid, how do they get paid, 609 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 2: how do they make decisions, how does this work right? 610 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 2: And in the end what you find is that there 611 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 2: are trillions of dollars. There are so many trillions of dollars, 612 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 2: and they need to be invested. Otherwise you can't make 613 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 2: money for pensioners or other people who you know require 614 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 2: you to do that to be able to pay their pension. 615 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 2: So the question really becomes how do you earn their 616 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 2: trust right? And that's the bridge to bankability. We have 617 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 2: to build this bridge to bankability, and we have to 618 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:17,240 Speaker 2: show our work. So we issued LIFTOFF reports and nuclear hydrogen, 619 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 2: long duration energy storage and Carbon Management. 620 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: The lift of reports that Jigger is talking about are 621 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: written by the Department of Energy to explain how and 622 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: when certain clean energy technologies will be available for mass adoption. 623 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: If you want to read the reports, we'll put a 624 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: link in the show notes. 625 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 2: Each sector has its own challenges, right. Some of it 626 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,760 Speaker 2: is purely technical. Do you know the cost of something 627 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 2: as accent it needs to become why and you know 628 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 2: the only way to do that is to deploy one 629 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 2: hundred billion dollars worth of technology and bring that technology 630 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,319 Speaker 2: down the cost curve, which is what we did for 631 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 2: solar and Win. And then once you spend one hundred 632 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 2: billion dollars crossing that bridge to bankability for each technology, 633 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 2: of which there might be twenty, so that's two trillion dollars, right, 634 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,839 Speaker 2: one hundred billion times twenty, then they're ready to take 635 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 2: the football and take it the rest of the way. 636 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 2: And part of the reason why we wrote the Liftoff 637 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 2: reports is because some of these folks weren't paying attention. 638 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,240 Speaker 2: We were crossing the bridge to bankability and they weren't watching, 639 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 2: And so now we're forcing them to watch, and they're like, Wow, 640 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 2: you've made a lot more progress than I suspected. Maybe 641 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 2: I should pay more attention, which is great, right, And 642 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 2: so we're trying to figure out how to meet the 643 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:30,319 Speaker 2: moment and how to inspire those billions and trillions that 644 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,320 Speaker 2: are currently only investing in solar and wind and battery 645 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 2: storage and some of these other technologies that might actually 646 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 2: be mature in their minds and try to get them 647 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 2: to look at some of these other technologies, some of 648 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 2: which have made it quite a bit across the bridge. 649 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:43,839 Speaker 2: To bankability. 650 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: Four hundred billion dollars is already a gobsmacking amount. And 651 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,240 Speaker 1: if I heard you right now, you're seeking two trillion dollars. 652 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: I hope you get it now. In all the applications 653 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: that you've been looking at, have you found the next Tesla? 654 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 2: Many? Many, But remember the next Tesla is not about us, right, 655 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 2: I mean, it's not about us, it's about them. So 656 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,399 Speaker 2: you know, there are a lot of companies that are 657 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,280 Speaker 2: slow and steady, wins erased kind of companies. That's clearly 658 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 2: not Elon Musk and clearly not Tesla. He likes to 659 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 2: over promise, under deliver, but then delivers in the end. 660 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 2: But we have the same thing. Monolith materials is pretty amazing, right. 661 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 2: When you think about splitting natural gas into carbon black 662 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 2: and hydrogen, it's pretty amazing. And when you think about 663 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 2: the energy and environmental justice issues around the way that 664 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 2: we make carbon black, now it's atrocious, right, So to 665 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 2: clean that up and to save the health impacts for 666 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 2: all those people is really amazing, right. And if he 667 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,720 Speaker 2: gets it right, you can build fifty of those sites. 668 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: That was a great conversation. 669 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, my pleasure. And you know what's 670 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 2: really fun is to see how many people are actually 671 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 2: opening their eyes to what's possible and going for it. 672 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 2: If we had a small part to play in inspiring 673 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 2: those people, I'm there for it. 674 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: Nine billion dollars is a bonkers amount of money for 675 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: the US government to give out to a private company, 676 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: even as alone. There will be a huge reaction to 677 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 1: this news, which you can read all about on Bloomberg 678 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:25,800 Speaker 1: dot com. Forward slash Green thanks for listening to Zero. 679 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,320 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this week's episode, share it with a 680 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,800 Speaker 1: friend or someone who wants to revolutionize public transport. Zero's 681 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: producer is Oscar Boyd and senior producer is Christine driscoll. 682 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Wonderly Special Thanks this week 683 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 1: to Aary Natter, Keith Norton, Gabby Coppola, and Kira Bindram. 684 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: I'm Aksha Prati back next week.