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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and welcome back to Coast to Coast. George

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Speaker 1: Norty with you, Joseph Weissberg with us his book Russia

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Speaker 1: Upside Down and Exit Strategy for the Second Cold War,

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Speaker 1: which he believes we're in right now. And that Joseph,

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Speaker 1: we were talking about Putin and how ruthless he is,

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Speaker 1: and he did have that KGB background. He's got one

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Speaker 1: real friend out there, and that's madev dev Right, it's

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Speaker 1: who madev Vedev the former president? Yes, right, Well that's

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Speaker 1: the guy who was, you know interesting. Putin stepped down

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Speaker 1: for a term and Medvedev took over and became president.

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Speaker 1: And there's a pretty great story about how a lot

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Speaker 1: of people encouraged Medvedev to stay president and to tell

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Speaker 1: Putin he couldn't come back and Madden maybe he might

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Speaker 1: want to do that, and then Putin apparently sat him

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Speaker 1: down and said, I will be coming back, and that

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Speaker 1: was the end of the story. How long will Putin

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Speaker 1: technically stay in office, Well, you know, he just amended

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Speaker 1: the constant Husian, so he can stay for quite a

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Speaker 1: long time. I don't think anybody knows if he will,

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Speaker 1: and there are a lot of stories coming out of

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Speaker 1: Russia that he's getting pretty tired, is taking quite a

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Speaker 1: toll on him. And if you look at him or

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Speaker 1: listen to him, he does look like a guy who's

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Speaker 1: maybe held on to his job a little too long

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Speaker 1: for his own good. But we'll see. But as of

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Speaker 1: right now, could you say comfortably that he has created

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Speaker 1: a new dictatorship in Russia. I think it's complicated. You know,

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Speaker 1: this is part of what I what I write about

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Speaker 1: in the book, that when you think about that, you

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Speaker 1: have to realize that Russia is not, and never was,

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Speaker 1: a liberal democratic state the way that we are, and

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Speaker 1: it's never you know, this history goes back, you know,

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Speaker 1: for hundreds of years between people in Russia who wanted

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Speaker 1: to westernize more, who wanted to have more liberal democracy,

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Speaker 1: and those who don't. And the pretty strong majority was

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Speaker 1: always those who don't. We were talking about the Cold War,

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Speaker 1: you and I remember so well, and in the United

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Speaker 1: States we've always talked about the dissidents, people like Sakarov

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Speaker 1: and Sharansky who stood up to the system, and what

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Speaker 1: I never realized at the time was they weren't very popular.

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Speaker 1: I thought that these guys were heroes who must have

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Speaker 1: they had the support of almost the whole Soviet population,

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Speaker 1: but in fact only very small proportion of people supported them,

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Speaker 1: and even now they're not really looked back on very

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Speaker 1: fondly by most people. So it's a different kind of

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Speaker 1: country with a different history. Often, you know, much more

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Speaker 1: worried about stability and much more open to strong, tough leaders.

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Speaker 1: So Putin is in a sense fulfilling that side of

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Speaker 1: the Russian history and and I guess the Russian destiny,

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Speaker 1: and you can call it dictatorship and autocracy, and it

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Speaker 1: certainly has very strong elements of those things. But I

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Speaker 1: don't think it should be seen from the perspective of

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Speaker 1: an autocrash who's sort of preventing his country from having

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Speaker 1: a liberal democracy, because that's not what they really want,

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Speaker 1: most of them. What is their game plan, Joseph, What

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Speaker 1: do they want? I would say if you look at

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Speaker 1: the Russian people, you know, it's hard to generalize because

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Speaker 1: they's different in his broad based as American people. They

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Speaker 1: want all kinds of different things. But overall Putin's quite popular.

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Speaker 1: You know, he has approval ratings would make any American

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Speaker 1: president jealous. And what that seems to indicate is that

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Speaker 1: people want someone who's going to keep the country intact,

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Speaker 1: prevent chaos, you restore it to some great power status,

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Speaker 1: keep the economy moving along. All really pretty understandable things.

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Speaker 1: But the other questions, what has Putin himself want? And

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Speaker 1: that's where I think things get really interesting, because I

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Speaker 1: would say that when he took over in nineteen ninety nine,

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Speaker 1: it seemed that he was actually open to a pretty constructive,

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Speaker 1: positive relationship with the West. I don't know if you remember,

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Speaker 1: but after September eleven is extremely supportive, and he let

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Speaker 1: us use Russian airspace and open military bases, you know,

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Speaker 1: on his border in Central Asia. And now all that's

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Speaker 1: all that's changed. Now it's pretty clear that he wants

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Speaker 1: to do whatever he can to undermine and even destroy

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Speaker 1: American democracy. So what happened, and I guess I would

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Speaker 1: say what happened is we engage them in a back

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Speaker 1: and forth battle, and we did as many difficult and

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Speaker 1: devastating things to them as they did to us, and

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Speaker 1: we whipped ourselves up into the Second Cold War. But

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Speaker 1: the perspective I like to suggest is to realize it's

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Speaker 1: not all their fault. It was something we all worked

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Speaker 1: on together during the World War Two. General George Patton

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Speaker 1: after the war recommended we go after the Soviet Union

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Speaker 1: and annihilate them. We did not do that. Obviously, was

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Speaker 1: he right or wrong? He was wrong, just you know,

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Speaker 1: on a very basic human level, if you look at

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Speaker 1: what happened in World War Two, that country had suffered

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Speaker 1: so unimaginably. You know, tens of millions of people died

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Speaker 1: fighting that war. And of course we have to give

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Speaker 1: them credit for our side winning the war, because about

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Speaker 1: ninety percent, maybe a little less, maybe eighty five percent

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Speaker 1: of Nazi troops were engaged fighting the Russians and the Soviets.

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Speaker 1: The Soviets defeated them, and so, you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: know in what universe that we could ever justify annihilating

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Speaker 1: other people anyway. But then now you look at it

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Speaker 1: as a people who just sort of played a major

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Speaker 1: role in winning your war with you, it would have

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Speaker 1: been it's pretty hard to imagine that. Well, at the

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Speaker 1: yacht set, the Nazi Germany had a peace agreement with

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Speaker 1: the Soviet Union. It was the Nazis that broke him. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a very interesting history as well, because what we

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Speaker 1: don't talk about as much here when I studied this

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Speaker 1: in college and whatnot, is that the Soviets in Stalin

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Speaker 1: really were more interested in a pact with the West

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Speaker 1: than with Britain, with France, but there was so much

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Speaker 1: suspicion of them and so much hatred and fear of Communism. British,

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Speaker 1: for example, was as scared or more scared of Communism

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Speaker 1: than they were early on of Nazism. So Stalin was

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Speaker 1: kind of robust in his efforts to have an alliance

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Speaker 1: with the West. And that's when he turned to Hitler.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that was okay or justifying that.

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Speaker 1: I'm just saying it is understandable from any country that

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Speaker 1: was in the position they were in trying to keep

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Speaker 1: themselves from being destroyed, and of course it didn't work.

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Speaker 1: Hitler turned on him anyway. Is that the same thing

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Speaker 1: that happened with Fidel Castro? I mean, did he not

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Speaker 1: want to turn to us for some help and we

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Speaker 1: kind of shunned him, so he went directly to the Soviets.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm not as familiar with that history, but

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Speaker 1: that is my impressions. I think that that followed that

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Speaker 1: storyline almost exactly. Yeah, of course we were supporting Batista,

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Speaker 1: who was in with a mob and everything else, and

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Speaker 1: what a disaster that was. I'd love to interview Raoul Castro.

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Speaker 1: He's the only one left of the bunch. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe he can get him on the show. That would

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Speaker 1: be amazing. I don't know does he speak English or

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Speaker 1: is it just Spanish. That's a great question. You can

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Speaker 1: translator if he doesn't. So. In your book, tell me

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Speaker 1: about the title Russia upside Down? What does that mean?

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Speaker 1: I started looking back at about the Silviet Union during

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Speaker 1: that first Cold War, and you know, I was really

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Speaker 1: with Ronald Reagan. I thought the Silvie Union was an

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Speaker 1: evil empire, and I saw everything in those kind of

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Speaker 1: black and white terms. They were bad, we were good.

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Speaker 1: They were evil, we were virtuous, and everything about them

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Speaker 1: was repressed and awful, and everything about us was democratic

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Speaker 1: and about freedom and something to be admired. And I

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Speaker 1: started thinking that I had really had It's something I

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Speaker 1: had it literally upside down, that the reverse of that

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Speaker 1: was true. What I didn't understand was that both countries

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Speaker 1: are more complex than that. You know, the Soviet Union

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Speaker 1: had bad things and good things about it. And we

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Speaker 1: have bad things and good things about us, and that

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Speaker 1: sort of sense of them that I only knew the

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Speaker 1: bad stuff. That's all I learned. That's all I learned

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Speaker 1: in school. That's all I saw on the media was

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Speaker 1: everything that was wrong, and so I ended up with

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Speaker 1: a kind of upside down view of what that country was. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's a good bro. What did you think of Stalin?

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Speaker 1: I mean, history has labeled him as a butcher to

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Speaker 1: his own people. There's no question that that's true. You know,

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Speaker 1: he's one of the greatest butchers and mass murderers of

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Speaker 1: his own people in all of history. The question that

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Speaker 1: I got sort of engaged with when I was writing

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Speaker 1: my book was how come he's so popular? If that's true?

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Speaker 1: And by the way, that is true, So how come

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Speaker 1: popular or feared? Joseph? I think actually popular. I think

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Speaker 1: we can look back now and say, certainly feared during

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Speaker 1: Soviet times, but also popular. But there's no way to

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Speaker 1: fear him now because he's been dead a long time,

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Speaker 1: and it's popular. It remains very high in Russia. And

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Speaker 1: the only way I can come understand that about somebody

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Speaker 1: who kills so many of his own people is that

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Speaker 1: they look at and focus on the positive things he did,

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Speaker 1: and they find that more important than the butchering. So

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Speaker 1: one example I like to give is that he's really

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Speaker 1: the guy who built that country. You know, we tend

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Speaker 1: to think of Lenin as the father of Soviet Union,

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Speaker 1: but really when Lennon died, the country hadn't really come

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Speaker 1: together yet. It was more like a kind of a

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Speaker 1: skeleton or a framework for a country. In Stalin industrialized

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Speaker 1: and brought the different nationalities together more fully and asserted

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Speaker 1: federal authority, really made it a country. And you know,

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Speaker 1: people there, like everywhere, were patriotic, so they appreciated that

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Speaker 1: there were also millions of people who had been really

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Speaker 1: poverty stricken peasants who were brought up into a higher

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Speaker 1: social class by Stalin, and for so many of them

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Speaker 1: and maybe their kids, that was more important than the

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Speaker 1: killing people. So I don't you know, I don't know that.

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Speaker 1: I think the guy was one of the horrible monsters

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Speaker 1: of all time. But I don't think those people who

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Speaker 1: are fans of his are crazy or evil. I just

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Speaker 1: think they're focused on other sides of him. What's your

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Speaker 1: reaction to Russia pulling out of NATO? I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: what it makes me think about after this, when the

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Speaker 1: Soviet Union was collapsing, I mean really in its final months,

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Speaker 1: there were a lot of meetings between Gorbachof and his

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Speaker 1: people and the West, and historians argue about this, but

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Speaker 1: more and more of them are saying that there was

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Speaker 1: at least an informal promise from the West that we

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Speaker 1: would not expand NATO east towards the Soviet Union after

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Speaker 1: it fell. Well, what happened shortly after the Soviet Union collapse.

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Speaker 1: NATO started absorbing former members of the Warsaw Pact that

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Speaker 1: was the Soviet Defense Alliance that was NATO's twin on

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Speaker 1: the other side, so started taking those countries into NATO.

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Speaker 1: And then after Putin took over, we started actually taking

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Speaker 1: former Soviet republics into NATO. Soart countries that had been

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Speaker 1: part of the Soviet Union and then after the collapse

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Speaker 1: became independent countries. Well, pretty predictably, Putin and Russia and

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Speaker 1: so many in Russia started feeling encircled and threatened, just

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Speaker 1: like we would feel if a defense alliance formed to

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Speaker 1: fight US. Started expanding into South America and then Central America.

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Speaker 1: So you know, it's pretty fraud. We did we did

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Speaker 1: our part to create that conflict, and I don't think

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Speaker 1: that pulling out of you know, pulling that master from

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Speaker 1: NATO and saying it's not going to have diplomatic relations

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Speaker 1: with NATO. I don't think that's a move that seemed

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Speaker 1: that it's so hard to understand. What would you do today,

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Speaker 1: Joseph Piffle, We're up to you to work out relations

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Speaker 1: with Russia. How would you approach it? I think it's

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Speaker 1: a pretty tough thing to do, because there's been such

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Speaker 1: a hit for tat going on for so long, and

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Speaker 1: the hostility is so great on both sides, and both

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Speaker 1: sides really are doing so much damage. It's very hard

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Speaker 1: to negotiate your way out of that. So what I

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Speaker 1: would do is I would try to make a few

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Speaker 1: unilateral moves to change the perception, to say to Russia,

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Speaker 1: we're actually interested in getting out of this conflict, and

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Speaker 1: we're gonna put our money where our mouth is. So,

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Speaker 1: for example, I would end the sanctions. I don't think

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Speaker 1: the sanctions really work. I don't think they do any good.

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Speaker 1: I think they're interfering in Russia's economy and trying to

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Speaker 1: harm it. Let's stop doing it and I'm not telling you,

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Speaker 1: George that the next day the Russians would stop their

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Speaker 1: propaganda United States or anything like that, but I think

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Speaker 1: it would be an opening move move to say, we

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Speaker 1: don't want to be in this fight anymore, let's pull back.

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Speaker 1: Had Gorbatov stayed in office, might we have worked out

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Speaker 1: a better relationship with what would have been Russia then

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Speaker 1: after the Soviet Union collapsed? I think that's pretty likely.

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Speaker 1: You know, Gorbachev was really, in so many ways a

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Speaker 1: great man. And even though he was a devoted communist

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Speaker 1: and really believed in communism, he was also a great

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Speaker 1: humanist and really believed in all in freedom much more

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Speaker 1: the way we do. And he wanted his people to

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Speaker 1: you know, have speech, to be able to write and

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Speaker 1: think freely and do what they wanted. So had he

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Speaker 1: continue to reform the Soviet Union in that direction, I

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Speaker 1: would not be surprised if today we would have a

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Speaker 1: better relationship than we do. When you were talking about

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Speaker 1: how Putin's popularity is so high, I suspect, Joseph, that

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Speaker 1: some people who are pulled or called are afraid to

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Speaker 1: say the truth. It's an interesting question because certainly, you

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Speaker 1: know there was no there was not only polling to

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Speaker 1: anybody in the Civil Union was the KGB who had

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Speaker 1: They didn't do literally exact polling, but they had all

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Speaker 1: kinds of ways to try to figure out what the

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Speaker 1: population was thinking and feeling, including you know, asking people questions.

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Speaker 1: But there's a there's a pretty strong consensus among people

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Speaker 1: who know more about this than I do, that the

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Speaker 1: independent polling that's done in Russia is probably roughly accurate.

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Speaker 1: There's this one organization, Thelevada Center, and they are not

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Speaker 1: under the state, are sometimes you know, threatened and repressed

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Speaker 1: a bit by the government, but they are non undered

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Speaker 1: them at all. And I think people believe that they're

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Speaker 1: able to get fairly accurate results. I'm sure you're old

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Speaker 1: habits die hard, and I'm sure there are some people

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Speaker 1: who don't feel safe saying what they really think. But

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Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of reason to think that

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Speaker 1: probably most people are responding honestly. And of course, here's

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Speaker 1: the humanitarian question. Why can't these nations China, US, Iran,

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Speaker 1: all of them, Israel? Why can't we all get along?

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Speaker 1: Why can't we get along? I don't It's it's so

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Speaker 1: puzzling to me, you know, the it's I think about

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Speaker 1: the Soviet Union and why we were so angry at

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Speaker 1: them and in such a conflict, right because they were communists,

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Speaker 1: and they were atheist and opposed religion, and they were

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Speaker 1: opposed to any kind of sort of basic freedom for

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Speaker 1: their people. Well, really that has changed significantly in just

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Speaker 1: the direction we wanted. Right. They're no longer communist in Russia,

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Speaker 1: they're no longer atheists. The state is, you know, very

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Speaker 1: involved at the Russian Orthodox Church and trying to use

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Speaker 1: Christianity to sort of gain legitimacy. They certainly aren't, you know,

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Speaker 1: they haven't embraced Western liberal freedom like us. But they're

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Speaker 1: less repressive than they were in Soviet times, meaning like crazy.

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Speaker 1: So so what is it about? It doesn't seem to

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Speaker 1: me it's about much other than needing an enemy and

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Speaker 1: wanting somebody to fight with. Well, what a planet we

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Speaker 1: could all build if we didn't fight and kill It's

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Speaker 1: it's sort of it's nice to think about and kind

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Speaker 1: of sad because it doesn't seem to be much sense

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Speaker 1: we're moving in that direction? Does there? Do you see

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Speaker 1: a World War three on the horizon. I don't like

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Speaker 1: to predict much because you know, all that happens. You

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Speaker 1: predict things, you're you know, you're an insider, you know things. Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't. I don't see it around the corner, you know.

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Speaker 1: I think that most of if you look at the

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Speaker 1: United States, if you look at China, if you look

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Speaker 1: at Russia, I think there's enough sober minded leadership to

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Speaker 1: keep anything like that from happening. But the problem is

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Speaker 1: that then something catches you by surprise, Then something you

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Speaker 1: weren't expecting happens, and you can go down pretty fast.

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Speaker 1: As you know. What would it take for this second

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Speaker 1: Cold War to come to an end? More than anything else?

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know I mentioned, for example, pulling back

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Speaker 1: on sanctions, but more than actions, it's going to take

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Speaker 1: a change of heart, a different perspective of looking at things.

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Speaker 1: And you know, Russia has to do that for themselves.

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Speaker 1: We're not responsible for how they look at the world,

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Speaker 1: but we are responsible for how we look at the world.

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Speaker 1: So for me, the thing we can do is stop

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Speaker 1: blaming them for everything, Stop assuming that the whole conflict

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Speaker 1: is their fault, Stop thinking that they're trying to destroy

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Speaker 1: us when we're so innocent and did nothing to provoke it,

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Speaker 1: and recognize it as a two way street, and just

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Speaker 1: that change in perspective I think could help. Listen to

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Speaker 1: more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at one a m.

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Speaker 1: Eastern and go to Coast to Coast am dot com

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Speaker 1: for more