WEBVTT - Into the Hologenome 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:05.960 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:14.440 Works dot com. Hey, wasn't the stuff to well your mind? 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.759 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Deklas, And 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:19.239 on this podcast we discussed a lot of topics that 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:22.159 get down to the heart of what we are, What 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:25.079 are we as human beings? And who is who is 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:27.240 the we in that sentence? Who is the I in 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:29.160 any different sentence? You know, we do a lot of 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:32.840 naval gazing, and we have a nice naval gaze only 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:36.360 topic for you today because it does get down to 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:38.800 the heart of what are we? What are we really 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:42.000 and and of the the hypothesis that we're looking at 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:45.400 in this episode hold true. Uh, the answer is is 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:48.400 far different than what we have thought, even in the 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:50.920 very recent past. Yeah, because we have talked about the 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:54.080 role of the microbiota in the past here, but now 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:57.440 we're gonna talk about something called the hola genome actually 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:01.160 just hollo genome um that furthert the idea that we 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:03.440 are all just sort of like skin wrappers and there's 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:08.480 a punch going on um that determines our biological and 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:11.360 in some ways are our mental fates um. And it's 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:13.840 not just genes here. So that's the big story with 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:17.119 the hologenium. Yes, and that skin wrapper description is pretty 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:20.080 accurate because when you get down to the cells in 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:21.800 our body, the gens and our body, it all adds 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:24.480 up to about ten of us. Yeah, because we're out 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:27.320 number ten to one by these bacterial cells. So there's 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:30.880 so much more going on um at the surface and below. 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:34.880 And in fact, there's this idea that evolution itself may 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:38.640 be driven by bacteria, which would make sense, I mean, 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:41.080 just on a very basic level, because again, ten percent, 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:44.120 only ten percent of us is us And that's a 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:47.840 ridiculous sentence to to make because then as we evolve, 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:51.400 then surely, I mean, then that other n has at 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:54.280 least some sort of voting rights, if not equal voting rights, 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:55.760 then at least some sort of voting rights. It would 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:58.080 just stand to reason, right, it would stand to reason. 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:00.640 But let's talk about what the micro biome, which is 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:03.320 made up of all this differing bacteria, has been up 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:05.880 to and do a quick little recap of the microbiome 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:09.200 project UM. This was funded by the National Institute of Health. 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:13.080 We're talking about two scientists, eighty institutions around the world 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:17.160 that sequenced the genetic material of bacteria, taking from two 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:20.600 d fifty people eleven thousand samples that came out of this, 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:24.480 and what we found out is that each human contains 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:27.960 up to eight million bacterial genes in contrast to just 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:32.960 twenty two thousand human genes. So again outnumbered, outnumbered. And 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:36.600 this is according to Michael Pollen in his article some 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:40.000 of My Best Friends are germs, he said that bacteria 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:43.440 can swap jeans and pieces of DNA with itself. This 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:46.320 is so crazy to me. Um he says, it's an 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:51.400 incredibly important adaptation that allows a microbiota which could be 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:53.720 exposed to a toxin or a new food, to swiftly 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:57.000 come up with precisely the right genes needed to fight 0:02:57.120 --> 0:03:00.280 something or eat it. So we you've talked about this 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:03.320 is actually a lot in the past that the gut bacteria, 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:06.760 you know, without it, we just couldn't exist. It's breaking 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:09.040 down food for us. It's allowing us to get the 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:11.880 nutrients out of it and also to take the stuff 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:15.120 that's a little dicey in jettis in it. Yeah, and 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:19.200 at the very least we have an extremely symbiotic relationship 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:22.120 with all of this bacteria that in the same way 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:25.519 that that we depend on on fire and cooking to 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:28.840 externalize part of our digestion. We've also in effect brought 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:32.639 in outside workers to help with the with the digestion 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.240 of the food. So it's a so so Yeah, it 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:39.320 has this huge effect on our ability to actually consume 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:42.000 the nutrients we need to survive. Yeah. And we also 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:47.000 have talked about how newborns are slathered in a new 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:52.160 sort of microbiome for themselves via vaginal births, but it 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:56.360 turns out that the bacterial life of newborns are actually 0:03:56.440 --> 0:04:00.680 seated before they're even ejected out into the world. Wow. 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:02.760 So even before they get to go through the birth 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:04.640 canal and just pick up all these new and exciting 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:06.800 bacteria to become a part of who they are, they 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:11.040 are they are already to use. Like a prior way 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:12.680 of of looking at it, you would say that they're 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:16.880 already infected, they're already tainted by the bacteria. But but 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.400 as we're discussing in this episode, it's it's wrong to 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:21.599 even think of it in terms of of of a 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:25.200 taint or a staining of the of the individual, because 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:28.279 there isn't really this pure, pristine individual. I mean, you 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:31.760 can do that. You can remove the micro biota from 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:34.640 a from an individual's member of a species, from an 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:38.920 individual organism, but with often dire results. Right. I think 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:40.599 the old view in the past was that any sort 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:42.720 of bacteria is bad. But now we've come from our 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:45.680 understanding of it, and it is really interesting to know 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:49.680 that a fetus is being seated via the placenta or 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:53.520 the cord blood, because you know that gives us this 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:56.680 idea that you cannot be separate from it, You cannot 0:04:56.680 --> 0:05:01.240 be this pristine individual who is born completely germ free, 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:04.479 that this is part imparcel of us. In fact, Joseph 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:07.200 Knew he is a University of Florida pediatrician. He actually 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:10.839 examined the first stools out of infants that were just 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:14.720 born and found that yes, indeed, uh their guts had 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:18.520 been active and had been seated to create all these 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:21.839 different bacteria that he found in their stools. And he 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:25.440 said that we might provide mothers with a microbial cocktail. 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:28.400 This is his idea that it's so important that we 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:30.440 may be able in the in the future to give 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:34.560 mothers who are just dating some sort of microbial cocktail 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:37.880 that would really help to ensure that that infant was 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:42.680 born with the optimal bacterial profile. Wow. Yeah, I keep 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:44.880 coming back in my mind as of reading about this 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:49.800 topic to a new ship constructed in a shipyard. And 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:52.000 then when it's time to put that ship out the sea, 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:55.440 you can't just slide it out and let it float 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:57.440 off to nowhere. It's got to have a croup. It 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:00.560 has to have uh, individuals aboard the ship to make 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:04.480 it function, to to to make it seaworthy. And then 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:06.520 over time, of course you're gonna have rats and stow 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:09.400 aways living on it as well, or or you know, 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:12.880 luxurious passengers who don't actually contribute to the overall health 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:15.680 of the ship at least in any way. That that that, 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:18.880 you know, the people of shoveling coal would understand. But 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:20.960 but but certainly you have to have at least a 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:23.880 skeleton crew when it rolls out into the water. I 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:25.719 like that. I like that idea that I've got a 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:28.320 crew inside of me right now. Yeah, it's like you're 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:33.200 the starship Julie, and you have a certain um microbacterial 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:36.320 crew that is in effect kind of running the show. 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:37.640 I mean, with some certain you know, it's like the 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:39.720 Star Trek Enterprise there's a computer system that's doing other 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.039 stuff that you have the genes, you have, you have 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:46.160 the cells, but then you have also this rich, uh 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:51.240 diverse alien crew that is making everything function at optimal levels. 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:53.760 I was thinking more like I was a rap star 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:58.880 rolling in with your crew. Yeah, yeah, okay, well that's 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:03.599 good then, all right, so how could bacteria inform evolution? 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:05.719 Let's take a quick break, and when we get back 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:17.000 we will dive into that. All right, we're back, we are, 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:19.080 and we are going to talk about the case of 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:22.280 the parasitic wasp in order to get into this material 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:27.800 about gut bacteria specifically and how it might be driving sea. 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:31.360 But first, yes, we're talking about the process by which 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:35.080 news species evolved. When we've all seen seen trees of 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:39.520 of of different organisms of branching out, you have one 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:42.200 life form and then it ends up dirty into two 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:44.600 separate life forms and they stem from each other and 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:48.920 it becomes this grand tree of evolution spreading across millions 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:51.280 of years. But how does that break up occur? How 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:54.560 does how does that that divide happened between this species 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:56.560 and that. Yeah, and that's what we're going to get into, 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:58.920 and um, you know, we're what we are talking about 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:02.800 is a particular species, these that developed different genetic characteristics 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:04.679 to the point where they cannot mate with the original 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:07.880 species and producer fertile offspring. So a good example of 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:11.480 this are horses and donkeys. Right, they descended from a 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:16.200 common ancestor, but their genetic makeup diverged in their offspring. 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:18.320 A mule isn't fertile. So what I talk about in 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:21.520 Assonia wasps, Well, it turns out that there are four 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:27.480 very closely related species in it, and when these species interbreed, 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:31.200 they make what's called a hybrid. And sometimes these hybrids die. 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:35.680 So the question becomes why do hybrids die between closely 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:39.920 related species? And to try to answer this, Seth Bordenstein, 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:43.000 he's a co author of research on microbiota and speciation. 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:48.960 UM looked at these wasps and tested a hypothesis that 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:52.600 a new species of animal can arise through changes in 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:58.240 gut bacteria or the gut microbiome, which is amazing sort 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.840 of new lens to look at this whole idea of evolution. Yeah, 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:03.680 like his breakthrough here with that if you if you 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:07.800 remove the microbiome from the equation with these wasps, then 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:12.400 the hybrid offspring will survive to a certain extent, it 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:14.760 is supposed to just being doomed from the get go. 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:18.400 So it's showing that it's not just the genetics at play, 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:22.240 it's also the microbiomes of each species. So even though 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:25.000 they're it's kind of like with with two individuals, it's like, well, 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:29.360 they're physically compatible, but then they have no emotional compatibility, 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:31.480 you know, etcetera. There, you know, any number of examples 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:33.439 you can, you can, you can make up with people 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:35.600 where on one level everything lines up, but on another 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:38.520 more important level, they don't. And and here for these uh, 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:41.760 these two species to really successfully breed and produce a 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:45.320 viable offspring, not only did the genetics have to be 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:49.880 uh at least interlockable, but also the microbiome, which is, 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:52.560 you know, pretty big news because we're talking about the 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.880 diet and talking about the crew that occupies the ship 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:59.360 and uh, and you can't necessarily combine the cruise without 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:01.920 there being a lot of unrest. I think there's a 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:04.880 whole Battlestar Galactica episode about that. I think so. And 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:09.120 you know, let's talk about cruise rolling too, right, one 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:12.080 crew rolling against another Exactly, there's gonna be uh, there's 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.800 gonna be unrest, there's gonna be mischief, all right. So 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:18.480 this leads this idea of the holo genome. So what 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:22.280 is the hologenome. It's basically made up of um, you know, 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:26.800 within the organism a cell's mitochondria, the cells DNA along 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:30.880 with microbiota, and Richard Jefferson and Eugene Rosenberg they came 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:34.000 up with the description of this theory. And Rosenberg actually 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:37.440 stumbled upon a nine paper by Diane Dodge, who was 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:40.760 then a post doc at Yale University, and she found 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:42.920 that changing the diet of a fruit fly could alter 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:46.920 the flies mating choices after just two generations, which made 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:49.080 Rosenberg kind of scratched his head and wonder if he 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:51.080 could do the same thing in his lap. Yeah, So 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:53.080 basically his findings for it. If you take take this 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:56.480 single species, you split them into two different populations, you've 0:10:56.520 --> 0:11:00.160 given each and individual diet, then the microbiome is going 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.200 to change, and eventually these individuals are going to they're 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:05.760 gonna no longer be compatible with each other. Yeah, that's right. 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:07.920 What they did is they took the single species that 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:09.760 they split and they give me two different types. They 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:12.520 brought them back together, and they found that they would 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:16.120 not mate with each other because they then had different 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:20.959 gut microbiomes. So that brings up this question of why 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:24.520 I kino as a vegetarian. If I start eating big Max, 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:27.760 is my husband going to back away from me because 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:30.880 you are both vegetarians. We're both vegetarians. If I change 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:33.480 my gut bacteria and I don't tell him, let's just 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:35.040 say let's throw that in the mix. For a week, 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:37.760 I eat this, I don't tell them, Um, you know 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:41.840 my gut microbiome changes, will he begin to sort of 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:45.120 find excuses, you know, to get out of the house. 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:48.400 I have a feeling that if you eat like a 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:50.760 big mac a day for a week after being a 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:55.120 vegetarian all this time, he's going to know, because because 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:58.280 your body is going to going to let everyone know 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:02.000 that there's a problem. Well, it's it's true. I think 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:04.040 that there would be some really big signs um, and 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:06.000 I won't go into what those signs might be. But 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:09.319 Seth Borden's team was was faced with this very same question, 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:12.480 what if what humans did this um with with the 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:14.640 same sort of thing happened, And he said, well, probably not, 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:17.920 but we do know that microbes affect the way we smell, 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:20.640 and and if individuals choose to date or find that 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:23.360 partners based on their smell, then that is a form 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:25.840 of discrimination that's occurring. If it happens to the population 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:28.160 or species level, the new species will be arising. So well, 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:30.839 anything is possible in biology. I doubt that humans will 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:33.599 be splitting into different species, yeah, because I mean the 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.240 other thing is that humans have a lot of additional 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:40.640 complexity layered on top of their smell related choices, So 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:42.800 they're not just going to necessarily be like, oh, well 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:45.920 she's she's really interesting and uh and I'm very attracted 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:48.480 to her, but uh, you know, she she eats a 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:51.320 little more garlic than I would like or or I'm 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:54.480 you know, I'm a true vegetarian and she's a what's 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:56.160 the what is it of your vegetarian? But he eat 0:12:56.200 --> 0:13:01.800 eggs your ovo lacto edgetarian? You know, guess or you're 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:03.920 not vegan? Yeah, I guess. You know that. I can 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:06.840 imagine that their varying degrees to which people are hardcore 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:08.600 enough about their diet where it would be a problem. 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:10.720 But I mean, I know people. I know one person 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.840 who is you know, pretty hardcore vegan and her husband's 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:16.199 not and they seem to get along. Fine, it happens, 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:18.760 you're right, there are examples, yeah and there, and they 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:21.280 have a child, so they're not like two different species, 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:23.880 and they can they can actually breed, So there you go. 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:26.480 It's true. Alright. So yeah, with humans, it's not acting 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:29.840 honest at that level. But it's fascinating to see these flies, 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:34.240 essentially the same species diverging from each other just based 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:36.560 on the gut bacteria. Now, of course we should mention 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:39.880 holo genome theory is a theory, and it's one that 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:43.560 people like to fight about, especially with evolutionary biologists, who 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:47.520 are not necessarily on board in all cases with this theory, 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:49.800 with this new way of looking, because evolutionary theory is 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:53.400 all about competition, survival the fittest, right, And we'll have 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:55.040 more on that in a minute. But the reason I 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:57.680 mentioned it here is that I was looking at a 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:00.120 study of involving killer whales, and this is a a 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:03.360 study that was connected by Andrew Foot and evolutionary biologists 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:05.960 of the University of Copenhagen. Now why is he looking 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:10.480 at at killer whales because he's interested in uh, sympathetic speciation. Okay, 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:12.359 now this is the idea that you have the speciation 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:16.920 we're talking about two. You have one particular organism, one species, 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:20.320 and over time it diverges into two. And uh. Killer 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:23.040 whales have been a particular interest to people because of 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:27.120 sympathetic speciation. This is occurring without a geographic barrier. They're 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:29.680 in the same area, but there you have just a 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:32.360 two different groups of the same species engaging in different 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:35.440 diets and UH, and then different behaviors to pursue that 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.880 particular prey animal. And then eventually the argument is they're 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:40.880 going to become two different species. And we see that 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:44.640 to a certain extents happening already with killer whale populations 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:48.240 in the North Pacific and Antarctic, where you have multiple 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:52.240 genetically distinct populations. They haven't been formally described as separate species, 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.720 but they pray they have different prey prefaces. So one group, 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:58.520 one pack of killer whales, they are mammal eaters. They're 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:00.960 eating the seals and that's all they eat, so they 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:05.240 have specific patterns for hunting those seals that they pass down. 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:08.040 And then you have another group that eat fish and 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:11.760 they have specific patterns for for pursuing those prey, and 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:14.880 these two packs do not intermingle, and they have different 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:17.720 ways their their communication is even a little different. So 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:19.920 they're they're arguably well on their way to becoming two 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:22.880 different species. So, um, it's a it's a possible example 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:28.760 of of this, uh, this holo genome effect on sei. Yeah, 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:30.480 it's interesting that you bring that up because it does 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.440 kind of mixed sort of our our more traditional views 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:36.400 a speciation, which sometimes have to do with populations being 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:41.000 isolated or not being isolated or just geographically in different areas, 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:44.600 and how that might affect um the species, and then 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:47.160 you have the diet in that mix as well. Yeah, 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:48.800 now I want to I just want to mention this 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:51.840 is a two thousand and thirteen study just from August 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:54.160 and Food again as an evolution Biotyes, so he's not 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:56.840 pursuing this, uh, this holo genome theory as as an 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.600 explanation for what's happening with the killer whales. But but 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:01.840 I feel like it's a very strong possibility here because 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:06.840 we're looking at diet effects in a given population. Yeah, 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:09.760 so that's that makes a very interesting case there. Um, Well, 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:11.960 let's take another quick break and when we get back. 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:14.800 We are going to look more at the criticism leveled 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:17.600 here at the hologenae theory and how it might or 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:28.560 might not square with evolution. All right, we're back again. 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:31.600 We're talking about the holo genome. We're talking about looking 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:37.400 at the aggregate genome of an organism. We're looking at SELLS, mitochondria, sells, DNA, microbiome, 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.200 all of it together, and the to to basically constitute 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:44.640 the total genome of a particular organism. Yeah, in the 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:48.440 hologena Again, this is a very new concept. Um. You know, 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:51.920 Jefferson Rosenberg and to some degree Diane's do they all 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:55.480 contributed to this idea. Then you have Seth board and 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:57.320 seem really sort of trying to run with it a 0:16:57.360 --> 0:16:59.960 bit more. Um. And I did want to point out 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.760 that Seth Boordenstein really engages people on this topic quite 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:05.919 a bit. He does this through his blog which is 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:09.679 called Symbiontisum, and he also does it through his Twitter 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:15.160 feed and hologeno hashtag hologenome of course, and I did 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:17.560 want to read a couple of things that he wrote. 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:20.640 Someone said, I'm not getting how hologenome is different than 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:25.240 co evolution systems with correlated inheritance, i e. Body lice, 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:29.440 and his his explanation was, because you can live without 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:33.280 parasites like lice, but you can't live without your microbiome. 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:36.000 So again he's making the case that this is part 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:39.640 imparcel of this sort of operating system that we have. 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:43.159 And just think back to Michael Pollan's example of how 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:48.520 some bacteria can swap d NA to respond to the environment. Yeah. Again, 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:50.760 the ship runs just fine without the rats, not so 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:53.399 much without the crew. Yeah. And you know, I was 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:56.080 thinking about this paired with epigenetics, and I will not 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:57.760 get into that, but you know, that's the idea that 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:01.080 you have this extra bit of information glommed on um 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:05.440 to your DNA, and you know, depending on what's going 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:11.120 on with the person's immune system or their external conditions 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:15.280 like famine for inst environment as their situation, uh, flipping 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:18.880 on or off individual games. Right, we're talking about generations 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:21.600 after that that are actually affected by that person's experience. 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:24.840 So nothing has cut and dried here. So back to evolution. 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:28.280 You know for us that has always seemed um, you know, 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:31.360 fairly straightforward at this point we're talking about variation, selection 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:34.200 and heredity. But now you do have this bacterial component, 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:37.239 or perhaps we have it, and I wanted to just 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:40.679 mention that there's there's one other little layer here in 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:45.000 the example of mice and how their brains develop, and 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.320 this is a two thousand and eleven experiment that showed 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:50.040 that mice need their gut flora for the brain to 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:54.600 really develop normally because germ free mice with no microbiotics, 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:58.400 ones that were removed showed severe deformities in their brain 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:01.199 structured and that ending hates that the brain and the 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:06.720 nervous system is dependent upon this proper gut microbiotic being 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:08.720 in place. Yeah, and that I mean that is obviously 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:10.639 huge because a lot of what we've talked about in 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:12.359 the past, just on the show, and a lot of 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:15.200 the information is generally out there. You know, it's easy 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:17.120 to get behind the idea, Oh, well, your gut back here. 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:19.120 It's good for you. It's good to have. It's good 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:21.240 to have around because it will help you digest, it 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:23.719 will help Yeah. Yeah, you know, you go on some 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:26.359 antibiotics for a U T I and then you you 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:28.719 end up taking a bunch of probiotics to sort of 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:32.760 balance the ship again. But but here we're seeing you know, 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:37.720 examples of severe brain deformities. So obviously it's not just 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:41.720 a matter of it's good to have, it's necessary to have. Yeah, 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:43.760 absolutely right. And then then the question is to what 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:47.160 extent is that you know inform other species of how 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:50.480 their brains and their gut bacteria work in tandem. So 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:52.760 again this gives us the idea that genes are not 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:55.399 the blueprint that we thought they were in the past. 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:58.520 And this is from science to point oh gerhard at him. 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:01.440 He said, whatever else we may think, it is clear 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:04.200 that viewing an organism and natural selection from the pure 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:07.920 perspective of genes is incomplete. Therefore, it may be more 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:10.800 precise to say that genes provide the basic environment, while 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:15.160 microbes manipulate and refined to produce a working ecosystem. As 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:20.800 a result, as goes their success, so goes ourship crew ownership. 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:23.879 But then you have someone like Andy Gardner of the 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:27.320 University of Oxford, and he sort of counterpoints us by saying, 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:30.280 I would be less inclined to bundle all these cells 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:33.040 together as a single integrated organism. And this is an 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:35.760 excellent point because sometimes the microbial cells will be doing 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:40.080 things that aren't good for the host. So yeah, we 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:43.160 see microbes in a new light in which we see 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:45.200 them in a more beneficial light. But it is true 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:51.240 that disease and illness are a result of bad bacteria, 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:53.359 not to call them bad or good, but yeah, but 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:55.320 of course the same thing can be said about genes, 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:58.600 that can be said about immune functions. There's it's a 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:00.880 it's a complicated chip, and there's a lot that can 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:02.959 go wrong, both in the hardware of the ship and 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:07.400 in the crew members, the stow aways, the rats, etcetera. Yeah, 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:11.320 and uh again, here we have boarding scene saying, look, 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:13.920 I don't know about this hologenome yet. Basically he's saying 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:16.760 dogma and linear thinking. It could also be wrong, but 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:19.520 a hypothesis is not wrong until tested. So it's out there. 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:22.800 It's out there for people's consideration. Um isn't going to 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:26.120 become the sort of you know, unified theory of everything 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:28.160 for the human body. We don't know, but I think 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:32.160 it definitely adds to the whole conversation of how our 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:36.440 bodies are actually responding to their environments, to their genetics, 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:39.320 to what we put in them. Yeah, and that's really 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:41.800