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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, wasn't the stuff to well your mind?

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Deklas, And

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Speaker 1: on this podcast we discussed a lot of topics that

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Speaker 1: get down to the heart of what we are, What

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Speaker 1: are we as human beings? And who is who is

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Speaker 1: the we in that sentence? Who is the I in

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Speaker 1: any different sentence? You know, we do a lot of

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Speaker 1: naval gazing, and we have a nice naval gaze only

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Speaker 1: topic for you today because it does get down to

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Speaker 1: the heart of what are we? What are we really

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Speaker 1: and and of the the hypothesis that we're looking at

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Speaker 1: in this episode hold true. Uh, the answer is is

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Speaker 1: far different than what we have thought, even in the

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Speaker 1: very recent past. Yeah, because we have talked about the

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Speaker 1: role of the microbiota in the past here, but now

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about something called the hola genome actually

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Speaker 1: just hollo genome um that furthert the idea that we

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Speaker 1: are all just sort of like skin wrappers and there's

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Speaker 1: a punch going on um that determines our biological and

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Speaker 1: in some ways are our mental fates um. And it's

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Speaker 1: not just genes here. So that's the big story with

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Speaker 1: the hologenium. Yes, and that skin wrapper description is pretty

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Speaker 1: accurate because when you get down to the cells in

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Speaker 1: our body, the gens and our body, it all adds

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Speaker 1: up to about ten of us. Yeah, because we're out

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Speaker 1: number ten to one by these bacterial cells. So there's

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Speaker 1: so much more going on um at the surface and below.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, there's this idea that evolution itself may

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Speaker 1: be driven by bacteria, which would make sense, I mean,

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Speaker 1: just on a very basic level, because again, ten percent,

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Speaker 1: only ten percent of us is us And that's a

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Speaker 1: ridiculous sentence to to make because then as we evolve,

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Speaker 1: then surely, I mean, then that other n has at

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Speaker 1: least some sort of voting rights, if not equal voting rights,

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Speaker 1: then at least some sort of voting rights. It would

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Speaker 1: just stand to reason, right, it would stand to reason.

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Speaker 1: But let's talk about what the micro biome, which is

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Speaker 1: made up of all this differing bacteria, has been up

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Speaker 1: to and do a quick little recap of the microbiome

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Speaker 1: project UM. This was funded by the National Institute of Health.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about two scientists, eighty institutions around the world

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Speaker 1: that sequenced the genetic material of bacteria, taking from two

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Speaker 1: d fifty people eleven thousand samples that came out of this,

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Speaker 1: and what we found out is that each human contains

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Speaker 1: up to eight million bacterial genes in contrast to just

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Speaker 1: twenty two thousand human genes. So again outnumbered, outnumbered. And

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Speaker 1: this is according to Michael Pollen in his article some

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Speaker 1: of My Best Friends are germs, he said that bacteria

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Speaker 1: can swap jeans and pieces of DNA with itself. This

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Speaker 1: is so crazy to me. Um he says, it's an

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Speaker 1: incredibly important adaptation that allows a microbiota which could be

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Speaker 1: exposed to a toxin or a new food, to swiftly

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Speaker 1: come up with precisely the right genes needed to fight

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Speaker 1: something or eat it. So we you've talked about this

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Speaker 1: is actually a lot in the past that the gut bacteria,

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Speaker 1: you know, without it, we just couldn't exist. It's breaking

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Speaker 1: down food for us. It's allowing us to get the

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Speaker 1: nutrients out of it and also to take the stuff

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Speaker 1: that's a little dicey in jettis in it. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: at the very least we have an extremely symbiotic relationship

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Speaker 1: with all of this bacteria that in the same way

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Speaker 1: that that we depend on on fire and cooking to

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Speaker 1: externalize part of our digestion. We've also in effect brought

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Speaker 1: in outside workers to help with the with the digestion

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Speaker 1: of the food. So it's a so so Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: has this huge effect on our ability to actually consume

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Speaker 1: the nutrients we need to survive. Yeah. And we also

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Speaker 1: have talked about how newborns are slathered in a new

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Speaker 1: sort of microbiome for themselves via vaginal births, but it

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Speaker 1: turns out that the bacterial life of newborns are actually

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Speaker 1: seated before they're even ejected out into the world. Wow.

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Speaker 1: So even before they get to go through the birth

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Speaker 1: canal and just pick up all these new and exciting

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Speaker 1: bacteria to become a part of who they are, they

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Speaker 1: are they are already to use. Like a prior way

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Speaker 1: of of looking at it, you would say that they're

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Speaker 1: already infected, they're already tainted by the bacteria. But but

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Speaker 1: as we're discussing in this episode, it's it's wrong to

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Speaker 1: even think of it in terms of of of a

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Speaker 1: taint or a staining of the of the individual, because

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Speaker 1: there isn't really this pure, pristine individual. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: can do that. You can remove the micro biota from

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Speaker 1: a from an individual's member of a species, from an

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Speaker 1: individual organism, but with often dire results. Right. I think

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Speaker 1: the old view in the past was that any sort

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Speaker 1: of bacteria is bad. But now we've come from our

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Speaker 1: understanding of it, and it is really interesting to know

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Speaker 1: that a fetus is being seated via the placenta or

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Speaker 1: the cord blood, because you know that gives us this

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Speaker 1: idea that you cannot be separate from it, You cannot

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Speaker 1: be this pristine individual who is born completely germ free,

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Speaker 1: that this is part imparcel of us. In fact, Joseph

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Speaker 1: Knew he is a University of Florida pediatrician. He actually

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Speaker 1: examined the first stools out of infants that were just

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Speaker 1: born and found that yes, indeed, uh their guts had

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Speaker 1: been active and had been seated to create all these

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Speaker 1: different bacteria that he found in their stools. And he

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Speaker 1: said that we might provide mothers with a microbial cocktail.

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Speaker 1: This is his idea that it's so important that we

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Speaker 1: may be able in the in the future to give

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Speaker 1: mothers who are just dating some sort of microbial cocktail

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Speaker 1: that would really help to ensure that that infant was

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Speaker 1: born with the optimal bacterial profile. Wow. Yeah, I keep

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Speaker 1: coming back in my mind as of reading about this

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Speaker 1: topic to a new ship constructed in a shipyard. And

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Speaker 1: then when it's time to put that ship out the sea,

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Speaker 1: you can't just slide it out and let it float

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Speaker 1: off to nowhere. It's got to have a croup. It

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Speaker 1: has to have uh, individuals aboard the ship to make

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Speaker 1: it function, to to to make it seaworthy. And then

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Speaker 1: over time, of course you're gonna have rats and stow

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Speaker 1: aways living on it as well, or or you know,

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Speaker 1: luxurious passengers who don't actually contribute to the overall health

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Speaker 1: of the ship at least in any way. That that that,

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Speaker 1: you know, the people of shoveling coal would understand. But

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Speaker 1: but but certainly you have to have at least a

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Speaker 1: skeleton crew when it rolls out into the water. I

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Speaker 1: like that. I like that idea that I've got a

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Speaker 1: crew inside of me right now. Yeah, it's like you're

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Speaker 1: the starship Julie, and you have a certain um microbacterial

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Speaker 1: crew that is in effect kind of running the show.

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Speaker 1: I mean, with some certain you know, it's like the

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Speaker 1: Star Trek Enterprise there's a computer system that's doing other

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Speaker 1: stuff that you have the genes, you have, you have

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Speaker 1: the cells, but then you have also this rich, uh

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Speaker 1: diverse alien crew that is making everything function at optimal levels.

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Speaker 1: I was thinking more like I was a rap star

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Speaker 1: rolling in with your crew. Yeah, yeah, okay, well that's

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Speaker 1: good then, all right, so how could bacteria inform evolution?

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Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break, and when we get back

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Speaker 1: we will dive into that. All right, we're back, we are,

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Speaker 1: and we are going to talk about the case of

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Speaker 1: the parasitic wasp in order to get into this material

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Speaker 1: about gut bacteria specifically and how it might be driving sea.

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Speaker 1: But first, yes, we're talking about the process by which

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Speaker 1: news species evolved. When we've all seen seen trees of

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Speaker 1: of of different organisms of branching out, you have one

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Speaker 1: life form and then it ends up dirty into two

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Speaker 1: separate life forms and they stem from each other and

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Speaker 1: it becomes this grand tree of evolution spreading across millions

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Speaker 1: of years. But how does that break up occur? How

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Speaker 1: does how does that that divide happened between this species

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Speaker 1: and that. Yeah, and that's what we're going to get into,

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Speaker 1: and um, you know, we're what we are talking about

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Speaker 1: is a particular species, these that developed different genetic characteristics

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Speaker 1: to the point where they cannot mate with the original

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Speaker 1: species and producer fertile offspring. So a good example of

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Speaker 1: this are horses and donkeys. Right, they descended from a

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Speaker 1: common ancestor, but their genetic makeup diverged in their offspring.

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Speaker 1: A mule isn't fertile. So what I talk about in

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Speaker 1: Assonia wasps, Well, it turns out that there are four

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Speaker 1: very closely related species in it, and when these species interbreed,

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Speaker 1: they make what's called a hybrid. And sometimes these hybrids die.

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Speaker 1: So the question becomes why do hybrids die between closely

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Speaker 1: related species? And to try to answer this, Seth Bordenstein,

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Speaker 1: he's a co author of research on microbiota and speciation.

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Speaker 1: UM looked at these wasps and tested a hypothesis that

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Speaker 1: a new species of animal can arise through changes in

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Speaker 1: gut bacteria or the gut microbiome, which is amazing sort

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Speaker 1: of new lens to look at this whole idea of evolution. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like his breakthrough here with that if you if you

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Speaker 1: remove the microbiome from the equation with these wasps, then

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Speaker 1: the hybrid offspring will survive to a certain extent, it

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Speaker 1: is supposed to just being doomed from the get go.

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Speaker 1: So it's showing that it's not just the genetics at play,

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Speaker 1: it's also the microbiomes of each species. So even though

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Speaker 1: they're it's kind of like with with two individuals, it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: they're physically compatible, but then they have no emotional compatibility,

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Speaker 1: you know, etcetera. There, you know, any number of examples

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Speaker 1: you can, you can, you can make up with people

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Speaker 1: where on one level everything lines up, but on another

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Speaker 1: more important level, they don't. And and here for these uh,

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Speaker 1: these two species to really successfully breed and produce a

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Speaker 1: viable offspring, not only did the genetics have to be

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Speaker 1: uh at least interlockable, but also the microbiome, which is,

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Speaker 1: you know, pretty big news because we're talking about the

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Speaker 1: diet and talking about the crew that occupies the ship

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Speaker 1: and uh, and you can't necessarily combine the cruise without

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Speaker 1: there being a lot of unrest. I think there's a

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Speaker 1: whole Battlestar Galactica episode about that. I think so. And

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Speaker 1: you know, let's talk about cruise rolling too, right, one

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Speaker 1: crew rolling against another Exactly, there's gonna be uh, there's

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Speaker 1: gonna be unrest, there's gonna be mischief, all right. So

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Speaker 1: this leads this idea of the holo genome. So what

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Speaker 1: is the hologenome. It's basically made up of um, you know,

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Speaker 1: within the organism a cell's mitochondria, the cells DNA along

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Speaker 1: with microbiota, and Richard Jefferson and Eugene Rosenberg they came

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Speaker 1: up with the description of this theory. And Rosenberg actually

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Speaker 1: stumbled upon a nine paper by Diane Dodge, who was

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Speaker 1: then a post doc at Yale University, and she found

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Speaker 1: that changing the diet of a fruit fly could alter

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Speaker 1: the flies mating choices after just two generations, which made

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Speaker 1: Rosenberg kind of scratched his head and wonder if he

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Speaker 1: could do the same thing in his lap. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: basically his findings for it. If you take take this

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Speaker 1: single species, you split them into two different populations, you've

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Speaker 1: given each and individual diet, then the microbiome is going

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Speaker 1: to change, and eventually these individuals are going to they're

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Speaker 1: gonna no longer be compatible with each other. Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 1: What they did is they took the single species that

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Speaker 1: they split and they give me two different types. They

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Speaker 1: brought them back together, and they found that they would

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Speaker 1: not mate with each other because they then had different

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Speaker 1: gut microbiomes. So that brings up this question of why

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Speaker 1: I kino as a vegetarian. If I start eating big Max,

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Speaker 1: is my husband going to back away from me because

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Speaker 1: you are both vegetarians. We're both vegetarians. If I change

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Speaker 1: my gut bacteria and I don't tell him, let's just

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Speaker 1: say let's throw that in the mix. For a week,

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Speaker 1: I eat this, I don't tell them, Um, you know

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Speaker 1: my gut microbiome changes, will he begin to sort of

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Speaker 1: find excuses, you know, to get out of the house.

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Speaker 1: I have a feeling that if you eat like a

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Speaker 1: big mac a day for a week after being a

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Speaker 1: vegetarian all this time, he's going to know, because because

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Speaker 1: your body is going to going to let everyone know

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Speaker 1: that there's a problem. Well, it's it's true. I think

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Speaker 1: that there would be some really big signs um, and

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Speaker 1: I won't go into what those signs might be. But

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Speaker 1: Seth Borden's team was was faced with this very same question,

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Speaker 1: what if what humans did this um with with the

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Speaker 1: same sort of thing happened, And he said, well, probably not,

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Speaker 1: but we do know that microbes affect the way we smell,

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Speaker 1: and and if individuals choose to date or find that

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Speaker 1: partners based on their smell, then that is a form

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Speaker 1: of discrimination that's occurring. If it happens to the population

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Speaker 1: or species level, the new species will be arising. So well,

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Speaker 1: anything is possible in biology. I doubt that humans will

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Speaker 1: be splitting into different species, yeah, because I mean the

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Speaker 1: other thing is that humans have a lot of additional

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Speaker 1: complexity layered on top of their smell related choices, So

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Speaker 1: they're not just going to necessarily be like, oh, well

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Speaker 1: she's she's really interesting and uh and I'm very attracted

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Speaker 1: to her, but uh, you know, she she eats a

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Speaker 1: little more garlic than I would like or or I'm

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm a true vegetarian and she's a what's

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Speaker 1: the what is it of your vegetarian? But he eat

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Speaker 1: eggs your ovo lacto edgetarian? You know, guess or you're

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Speaker 1: not vegan? Yeah, I guess. You know that. I can

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Speaker 1: imagine that their varying degrees to which people are hardcore

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Speaker 1: enough about their diet where it would be a problem.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, I know people. I know one person

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Speaker 1: who is you know, pretty hardcore vegan and her husband's

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Speaker 1: not and they seem to get along. Fine, it happens,

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Speaker 1: you're right, there are examples, yeah and there, and they

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Speaker 1: have a child, so they're not like two different species,

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Speaker 1: and they can they can actually breed, So there you go.

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Speaker 1: It's true. Alright. So yeah, with humans, it's not acting

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Speaker 1: honest at that level. But it's fascinating to see these flies,

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Speaker 1: essentially the same species diverging from each other just based

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Speaker 1: on the gut bacteria. Now, of course we should mention

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Speaker 1: holo genome theory is a theory, and it's one that

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Speaker 1: people like to fight about, especially with evolutionary biologists, who

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Speaker 1: are not necessarily on board in all cases with this theory,

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Speaker 1: with this new way of looking, because evolutionary theory is

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Speaker 1: all about competition, survival the fittest, right, And we'll have

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Speaker 1: more on that in a minute. But the reason I

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Speaker 1: mentioned it here is that I was looking at a

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Speaker 1: study of involving killer whales, and this is a a

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Speaker 1: study that was connected by Andrew Foot and evolutionary biologists

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Speaker 1: of the University of Copenhagen. Now why is he looking

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Speaker 1: at at killer whales because he's interested in uh, sympathetic speciation. Okay,

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Speaker 1: now this is the idea that you have the speciation

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Speaker 1: we're talking about two. You have one particular organism, one species,

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Speaker 1: and over time it diverges into two. And uh. Killer

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Speaker 1: whales have been a particular interest to people because of

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Speaker 1: sympathetic speciation. This is occurring without a geographic barrier. They're

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Speaker 1: in the same area, but there you have just a

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Speaker 1: two different groups of the same species engaging in different

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Speaker 1: diets and UH, and then different behaviors to pursue that

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Speaker 1: particular prey animal. And then eventually the argument is they're

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Speaker 1: going to become two different species. And we see that

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Speaker 1: to a certain extents happening already with killer whale populations

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Speaker 1: in the North Pacific and Antarctic, where you have multiple

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Speaker 1: genetically distinct populations. They haven't been formally described as separate species,

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Speaker 1: but they pray they have different prey prefaces. So one group,

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Speaker 1: one pack of killer whales, they are mammal eaters. They're

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Speaker 1: eating the seals and that's all they eat, so they

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Speaker 1: have specific patterns for hunting those seals that they pass down.

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Speaker 1: And then you have another group that eat fish and

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Speaker 1: they have specific patterns for for pursuing those prey, and

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Speaker 1: these two packs do not intermingle, and they have different

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Speaker 1: ways their their communication is even a little different. So

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Speaker 1: they're they're arguably well on their way to becoming two

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Speaker 1: different species. So, um, it's a it's a possible example

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Speaker 1: of of this, uh, this holo genome effect on sei. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting that you bring that up because it does

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Speaker 1: kind of mixed sort of our our more traditional views

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Speaker 1: a speciation, which sometimes have to do with populations being

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Speaker 1: isolated or not being isolated or just geographically in different areas,

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Speaker 1: and how that might affect um the species, and then

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Speaker 1: you have the diet in that mix as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: now I want to I just want to mention this

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Speaker 1: is a two thousand and thirteen study just from August

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Speaker 1: and Food again as an evolution Biotyes, so he's not

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Speaker 1: pursuing this, uh, this holo genome theory as as an

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Speaker 1: explanation for what's happening with the killer whales. But but

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Speaker 1: I feel like it's a very strong possibility here because

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Speaker 1: we're looking at diet effects in a given population. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that's that makes a very interesting case there. Um, Well,

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Speaker 1: let's take another quick break and when we get back.

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Speaker 1: We are going to look more at the criticism leveled

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Speaker 1: here at the hologenae theory and how it might or

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Speaker 1: might not square with evolution. All right, we're back again.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about the holo genome. We're talking about looking

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Speaker 1: at the aggregate genome of an organism. We're looking at SELLS, mitochondria, sells, DNA, microbiome,

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Speaker 1: all of it together, and the to to basically constitute

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Speaker 1: the total genome of a particular organism. Yeah, in the

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Speaker 1: hologena Again, this is a very new concept. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: Jefferson Rosenberg and to some degree Diane's do they all

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Speaker 1: contributed to this idea. Then you have Seth board and

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Speaker 1: seem really sort of trying to run with it a

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Speaker 1: bit more. Um. And I did want to point out

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Speaker 1: that Seth Boordenstein really engages people on this topic quite

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Speaker 1: a bit. He does this through his blog which is

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Speaker 1: called Symbiontisum, and he also does it through his Twitter

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Speaker 1: feed and hologeno hashtag hologenome of course, and I did

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Speaker 1: want to read a couple of things that he wrote.

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Speaker 1: Someone said, I'm not getting how hologenome is different than

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Speaker 1: co evolution systems with correlated inheritance, i e. Body lice,

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Speaker 1: and his his explanation was, because you can live without

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Speaker 1: parasites like lice, but you can't live without your microbiome.

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Speaker 1: So again he's making the case that this is part

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Speaker 1: imparcel of this sort of operating system that we have.

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Speaker 1: And just think back to Michael Pollan's example of how

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Speaker 1: some bacteria can swap d NA to respond to the environment. Yeah. Again,

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Speaker 1: the ship runs just fine without the rats, not so

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Speaker 1: much without the crew. Yeah. And you know, I was

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Speaker 1: thinking about this paired with epigenetics, and I will not

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Speaker 1: get into that, but you know, that's the idea that

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Speaker 1: you have this extra bit of information glommed on um

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Speaker 1: to your DNA, and you know, depending on what's going

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Speaker 1: on with the person's immune system or their external conditions

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Speaker 1: like famine for inst environment as their situation, uh, flipping

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Speaker 1: on or off individual games. Right, we're talking about generations

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Speaker 1: after that that are actually affected by that person's experience.

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Speaker 1: So nothing has cut and dried here. So back to evolution.

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Speaker 1: You know for us that has always seemed um, you know,

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Speaker 1: fairly straightforward at this point we're talking about variation, selection

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Speaker 1: and heredity. But now you do have this bacterial component,

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Speaker 1: or perhaps we have it, and I wanted to just

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Speaker 1: mention that there's there's one other little layer here in

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Speaker 1: the example of mice and how their brains develop, and

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Speaker 1: this is a two thousand and eleven experiment that showed

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Speaker 1: that mice need their gut flora for the brain to

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Speaker 1: really develop normally because germ free mice with no microbiotics,

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Speaker 1: ones that were removed showed severe deformities in their brain

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Speaker 1: structured and that ending hates that the brain and the

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Speaker 1: nervous system is dependent upon this proper gut microbiotic being

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Speaker 1: in place. Yeah, and that I mean that is obviously

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Speaker 1: huge because a lot of what we've talked about in

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Speaker 1: the past, just on the show, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: the information is generally out there. You know, it's easy

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Speaker 1: to get behind the idea, Oh, well, your gut back here.

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Speaker 1: It's good for you. It's good to have. It's good

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Speaker 1: to have around because it will help you digest, it

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Speaker 1: will help Yeah. Yeah, you know, you go on some

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Speaker 1: antibiotics for a U T I and then you you

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Speaker 1: end up taking a bunch of probiotics to sort of

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Speaker 1: balance the ship again. But but here we're seeing you know,

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Speaker 1: examples of severe brain deformities. So obviously it's not just

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Speaker 1: a matter of it's good to have, it's necessary to have. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: absolutely right. And then then the question is to what

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Speaker 1: extent is that you know inform other species of how

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Speaker 1: their brains and their gut bacteria work in tandem. So

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Speaker 1: again this gives us the idea that genes are not

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Speaker 1: the blueprint that we thought they were in the past.

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Speaker 1: And this is from science to point oh gerhard at him.

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Speaker 1: He said, whatever else we may think, it is clear

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Speaker 1: that viewing an organism and natural selection from the pure

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Speaker 1: perspective of genes is incomplete. Therefore, it may be more

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Speaker 1: precise to say that genes provide the basic environment, while

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Speaker 1: microbes manipulate and refined to produce a working ecosystem. As

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Speaker 1: a result, as goes their success, so goes ourship crew ownership.

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Speaker 1: But then you have someone like Andy Gardner of the

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Speaker 1: University of Oxford, and he sort of counterpoints us by saying,

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Speaker 1: I would be less inclined to bundle all these cells

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Speaker 1: together as a single integrated organism. And this is an

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Speaker 1: excellent point because sometimes the microbial cells will be doing

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Speaker 1: things that aren't good for the host. So yeah, we

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Speaker 1: see microbes in a new light in which we see

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Speaker 1: them in a more beneficial light. But it is true

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Speaker 1: that disease and illness are a result of bad bacteria,

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Speaker 1: not to call them bad or good, but yeah, but

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Speaker 1: of course the same thing can be said about genes,

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Speaker 1: that can be said about immune functions. There's it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a complicated chip, and there's a lot that can

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Speaker 1: go wrong, both in the hardware of the ship and

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Speaker 1: in the crew members, the stow aways, the rats, etcetera. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and uh again, here we have boarding scene saying, look,

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Speaker 1: I don't know about this hologenome yet. Basically he's saying

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Speaker 1: dogma and linear thinking. It could also be wrong, but

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Speaker 1: a hypothesis is not wrong until tested. So it's out there.

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Speaker 1: It's out there for people's consideration. Um isn't going to

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Speaker 1: become the sort of you know, unified theory of everything

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Speaker 1: for the human body. We don't know, but I think

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Speaker 1: it definitely adds to the whole conversation of how our

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Speaker 1: bodies are actually responding to their environments, to their genetics,

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Speaker 1: to what we put in them. Yeah, and that's really

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Speaker 1: what these guys are pushing with the hologenome thing. And

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Speaker 1: they're not saying, all right, we have it. Here's the

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Speaker 1: answer to everything. They're saying, we think there's something to this.

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Speaker 1: We think this is a really important theory. We want

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Speaker 1: other people to explore this, uh in regards to other organisms,

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Speaker 1: other species, and of course the human body itself. You know,

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Speaker 1: I am participating in the u biome UM. This is

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Speaker 1: the sort A and UM science projects, and this week

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Speaker 1: I am shipping off my microbiotics samples. I can't wait,

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Speaker 1: going to get it back, going to find out what

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Speaker 1: my crew is doing there. Excellent, Ya in an envelope?

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Speaker 1: Is envelope? You just put it all in? UM? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's just basically it's just a couple of Q tips.

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Speaker 1: Now it's it's much more elaborate than that. And they

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Speaker 1: want to know obviously, like what your diet has consisted of,

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Speaker 1: and you report all of that along with the samples

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Speaker 1: that you provide. Excellent. Are you going to share the results?

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Speaker 1: I am yeah. Now, another criticism that some people level

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Speaker 1: with this is that it's just kind of a a

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Speaker 1: rehashed version of the Lamarchian model UM. And this, of course,

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Speaker 1: it goes back to nineteenth century Jean Baptiste Lamark, who

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Speaker 1: had this theory of evolution that incorporated the then popular

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Speaker 1: idea that organisms could pass on adaptive traits that they

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Speaker 1: acquired you're in their life times. The classic example of

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Speaker 1: this is a giraffe is trying to eat the leaves

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Speaker 1: of the top of the tree, restrains his neck, and

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Speaker 1: then the offspring that those giraffes have then has a

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Speaker 1: longer neck because the parent organisms strained their neck. It's

429
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 1: it's a little more involved than that, but it was

430
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 1: a popular theory for a while, and then came Darwin's

431
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 1: theory that is similar but a bit more nuanced and uh,

432
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: and then Lamarck faded into the background. It's true, although

433
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:27,119
Speaker 1: Lamark has enjoyed a resurgence as of late. So you know,

434
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 1: to me, it's just reconsidering it, not reconsidering. You know,

435
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 1: evolution is saying, let's throughout the baby with the bathwater.

436
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 1: I think it's just saying what other things are going on? Yeah,

437
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 1: And I I also want to add that I think

438
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,360
Speaker 1: understanding the hollo genome. Having a thorough understanding the halo

439
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,479
Speaker 1: genome is of course what we're going to need if

440
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,440
Speaker 1: we're gonna ever tell port people across the room or

441
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 1: across the planet, ordered another to another world. Right, because

442
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 1: because you've seen the fly, the whole deal there is oops,

443
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 1: he accidentally got his DNA splice with the fly d

444
00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:01,360
Speaker 1: n A and then monstrous consequences occur in Cronenberg's wonderful film.

445
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: And and even remember at an early age watching it

446
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 1: and knowing, well, you know, we have like, you know,

447
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: things living in our eyebrows, and then later on, well,

448
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 1: we have all these things living in our gut. And

449
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,680
Speaker 1: then when you start looking at this, this this fact

450
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,400
Speaker 1: that we are only ten percent of us, it really complicates.

451
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,439
Speaker 1: You'd have to teleport not just this one organism, but

452
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,880
Speaker 1: all of these organisms and have it all come out

453
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: on the other side completely intact and working order, without

454
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 1: any sailors, you know, stuck in sense in part of

455
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: the ship in the walls. It's right, you want you

456
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 1: want the ship to be fairly intact and not have

457
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,880
Speaker 1: appendages sticking out. Ye now I'm drawing in other teleportation

458
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: sci fi films, but anyway, you get my point. It

459
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,479
Speaker 1: really it complicates and changes what we think about, uh,

460
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 1: when we think about who we are. I just like

461
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 1: that I went to the place of you biom and

462
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 1: you went to that place. That's how it goes, right, Hey,

463
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 1: before we close out, let's call the robot over. We

464
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,400
Speaker 1: haven't really been doing much listener mail, and then we

465
00:24:58,400 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: we try to make it up to him with a

466
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: whole epis so, but we really need to have regular

467
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 1: interaction with the robot if we if we want to

468
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: maintain a healthy relationship with our technology. Yeah, and put

469
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: that oil can away exactly all right. We heard a

470
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: lot from listeners on our Uncanny Music episode about the

471
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: science of uncanny music. Wind Is scary or creepy or weird?

472
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 1: Music have this effect on us? Is it cultural? Is

473
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: it's something in eight and uh, here's just one of

474
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 1: the responses. This is b from Boston Writing and says,

475
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,640
Speaker 1: high blow your mind team, you're talking about why music

476
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: gives us chills? Brings to mind a little no neurological quirk.

477
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: There are plenty of people who, despite loving music and

478
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: feeling emotionally stirred by it, never experienced actual chills. I've

479
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 1: been a musician my whole life, but I always assumed

480
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: that when people said the music gave me chills, it

481
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 1: was a melodramatic figure of speech. I've been brought to

482
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: tears by music before and felt completely rocked by powerful passages,

483
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: but never once I've felt a tingle. It wasn't until

484
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 1: stumbling on articles about the phenomenon that I learned that

485
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 1: these claims of chills are real. Meanwhile, my boyfriend was

486
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: shocked to think that music could be experienced without these sensations.

487
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 1: Since this discovery, I've done a few impromptu surveys of

488
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 1: friends and co workers. In all of these environments, the

489
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,719
Speaker 1: vast majority of people do get chills, but a steady

490
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 1: ten percent ish have shyly conceded that they have also

491
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 1: never felt them. The brain is a funny thing. I

492
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 1: have no idea what makes some of us chill haves

493
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 1: and have nots, but I would love to learn more

494
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 1: about it. Did you see anything about this side of

495
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: things in your research? Love the show and thanks for

496
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: all you do. Actually, they did not pop up in

497
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 1: the in our research, but it does make me want

498
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 1: to explore the chills as as a singular topic at

499
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 1: some point in the future. Like, really get into goose flesh,

500
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 1: really get into chill bumps, really get into pins and needles. Yeah,

501
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: I get pins and needles is different but it's the

502
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 1: still I think it's the same sensation, right, you're on

503
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: pins and needles, your your goose flesh, you're you're alert. Um.

504
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: It is a very interesting question as to why we

505
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: would all of a sudden look like chickens. Um. And

506
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: there's a lot more to it, obviously, they're there's some

507
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 1: holes in the research. People aren't exactly sure why. But

508
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: that's a good topic to cover and we've got so

509
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: many good emails about that that episode. Um. People send

510
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: us a lot of great links to two movies that

511
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 1: have been recut with scary music, like Mrs Doutfire, Yes, um,

512
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: Mary Poppins of course, Yes Poppins one where it turns

513
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: it into a horror film by just changing around the

514
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: music and the scenes, which is easy to do with

515
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: that movie because if you look at it now that

516
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,959
Speaker 1: it actually you know, because it's like Foggio London, or

517
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: it has this sort of ominous feeling to it, just

518
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 1: in the tones of the great towns. Well. I love

519
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,679
Speaker 1: the argument that she was actually a timelord, you know,

520
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 1: like the doctor doctor who Yes, um, so yeah, there

521
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 1: are many different ways to recast things given the boat

522
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: context of the music. All right, well, hey, if you

523
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: want to get in touch with this, you can find

524
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: us in a number of places. First and foremost, go

525
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That is

526
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: our website. All the podcast show up there, all the

527
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: podcast not just the ones that are on iTunes, but

528
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: the backlog going back through the centuries, the hidden ones

529
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: and uh and then that's where we do our blog

530
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: posts or video show up there. Everything we do. That's

531
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: the mother ship. But you can also find us on

532
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: social media Facebook, we do a lot their Twitter, you

533
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 1: can find us there as well, Tumbler. We're always feeding

534
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 1: that thing, and of course you can find us on

535
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: YouTube as mind stuff ships. And if you want to

536
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 1: share your thoughts with us about today's episode or really

537
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 1: any other episodes, you can't always drop us a line

538
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: and you can do so. Blow the mind at discovery

539
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 1: dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics.

540
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: Does It How stuff works dot com