Speaker 1: Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.
Speaker 3: These are our stories.
Speaker 1: Done done, Hello, and welcome to That's Messed Up, your
Speaker 1: favorite Law and Order SVU podcast.
Speaker 3: I'm Kara and I'm.
Speaker 2: Liza, and we talk SVIE crime, We talked to celebs.
Speaker 2: It's really a podcast that has everything. I'm back from
Speaker 2: my fantastic week alass week. But I mean, I actually
Speaker 2: just saw something terrible on the internet. I don't even
Speaker 2: know if I want to talk about it, but that
Speaker 2: the fucking White House posted like people getting arrested and
Speaker 2: deported and made it an ASMR video. They're like lol
Speaker 2: ASMR and it's like people getting shackled, searched and put
Speaker 2: on a plane.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I went to make sure it wasn't fake
Speaker 2: or AI because it's like, are you like, I mean,
Speaker 2: every none of it is real, But it's like.
Speaker 3: What the fuck?
Speaker 1: Yeah, the course is so long gone, We're so long gone. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the cruelty is part of it. It's the point, you know,
Speaker 1: like it's fucked. We're gonna do I just like, but
Speaker 1: we can't heavily drink because we can't handle it anymore.
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know what, you know.
Speaker 1: I it's like when you were when you were not
Speaker 1: feeling good last week, Like it just reminds me of
Speaker 1: the time that we went out one of like the
Speaker 1: first nights that I feel like we were all going
Speaker 1: out like after COVID and I. You just kept buying
Speaker 1: shots and I just kept being like, gotta drink these shots,
Speaker 1: gotta keep up. And then our friend that we were
Speaker 1: with later told me that she was throwing all the
Speaker 1: shots and I was like, we were like, I was like,
Speaker 1: I I threw up and I felt like asked.
Speaker 3: But I'm also mad that our friend couldn't just be like.
Speaker 1: For me, I know, I see, you know, I can't
Speaker 1: see that kind of waste of money, Like I had
Speaker 1: to take them. I was like, I'm not she bought them.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna like not take them. But anyway, Uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's kind of the darkest thing I've ever seen.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Fuck, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know what our uh, I don't know what
Speaker 1: our recourse is right now, but I know a lot
Speaker 1: of you are feeling the same way as US so.
Speaker 2: And then it's like the articles are like sparks backlash,
Speaker 2: Oh my god, and it's like, no, it's not bad.
Speaker 2: This is like the people that like it like it.
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's not Yeah, who cares about backlas? Like,
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's just backlash is so minimal and stupid,
Speaker 2: Like why would you write about that? There's no backlas,
Speaker 2: Like nothing's gonna happen, there's no checks and balances.
Speaker 1: I know, there's like a thing because like I saw
Speaker 1: some tweet about impeachment and I was like, can we
Speaker 1: even do We can't even do that.
Speaker 3: We can't do it, but we need to.
Speaker 1: We'll just we need to take the midterms in two years,
Speaker 1: so hopefully we're working on that. I don't know really
Speaker 1: who's in fucking charge anywhere, though. I don't think we're
Speaker 1: gonna get there. I think once putin and try, I mean,
Speaker 1: we can't. Let's just talk about sn L fiftieth.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I know Hunger Games, we're in the
Speaker 3: Hunger Well.
Speaker 1: I have literally have it saved on my DVR, but
Speaker 1: haven't had a chance to watch it yet. It's like
Speaker 1: so long, but I've obviously been checking in on the clips.
Speaker 3: It's so cool. It's so fun.
Speaker 1: Like I have a couple of friends that were there,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I can't wait for you to tell
Speaker 1: me about it.
Speaker 3: Like I just think it's like cool. Like I don't know.
Speaker 1: Some people hate SNL. My husband doesn't like SNL. I
Speaker 1: love it. I watch every week. I record every episode
Speaker 1: and watch it, and I think it's fun to see
Speaker 1: all these people come back and like get into these
Speaker 1: old characters and do that shit, and to also just
Speaker 1: talk about like the little behind the lines, yeah, and
Speaker 1: the behind the scenes of like how they came up
Speaker 1: with shit, and like I like that.
Speaker 3: I think it's so funny.
Speaker 1: But what were your I mean, I was watching some
Speaker 1: clips of like Meryl Street playing Kate McKinnon, you know
Speaker 1: that the pervert that always gets like abducted.
Speaker 3: That was making me laugh. You know. That was her
Speaker 3: SNL debut. She's never hosted.
Speaker 1: Wait what, that's nothing. You've never had Meryl Streep because
Speaker 1: she seems very fun.
Speaker 3: I don't think she wants to.
Speaker 2: I think kind of the smart and short thing has
Speaker 2: really brought a new side of Meryll out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm really.
Speaker 2: Into them kind of out and about being silly.
Speaker 3: Me too.
Speaker 2: I'm loving that and I'm excited by their their relationship.
Speaker 2: I really like the way Drew Barrymore looked. I didn't
Speaker 2: watch it. I've just been looking at all the like
Speaker 2: clips and fun stuff and like, I'm just in a
Speaker 2: Bravo haes. Like I said, I slimly watched White Lotus yet,
Speaker 2: but I did watch Yellow Jackets. I did watch the
Speaker 2: two the premiere episodes of Yellow Jackets.
Speaker 1: Oh it was two because I started one. I'm halfway
Speaker 1: through the first one. Yeah, there's two, but I didn't
Speaker 1: know it was too you know. I had to fucking
Speaker 1: upgrade to Paramount Plus. It changed my whole I had
Speaker 1: to get Paramount plus showtime. I changed my whole billing cycle.
Speaker 1: I got like a partial refund. It was crazy, but
Speaker 1: really quickly back to Merrill. A little bit of fun
Speaker 1: local interesting information for you. Was I think I've mentioned
Speaker 1: before I've been to an event, a children's party event,
Speaker 1: where Meryl Streep was present. I went to that same
Speaker 1: event this year. She was at SNL fifty, so she
Speaker 1: was not there, but I did. I did speak to
Speaker 1: her son, who is buying the york A bar that
Speaker 1: we used to go to all the time when you
Speaker 1: lived in La and turning.
Speaker 3: It into part venue, part bar.
Speaker 1: And I was like, you gotta let me help you
Speaker 1: find a good comedian to run a good comedy show there,
Speaker 1: and he was like, totally. So I'm gonna try to
Speaker 1: get some comedy going at the York when.
Speaker 2: It's because they're in room, it's not that bit or
Speaker 2: outside the other side.
Speaker 3: Gonna they'll do it. I think they're gonna like trash
Speaker 3: the like bar in the center.
Speaker 1: Like I think they're gonna do like a bifurcated like
Speaker 1: spot and change the whole like layout.
Speaker 3: But I don't know. It's not gonna be ready for
Speaker 3: a while. He's like, probably not till next year or something.
Speaker 1: But I'm exciting because I will say I love that
Speaker 1: place and I used to go there all the time
Speaker 1: pre pandemic, but they have the quality has to Last
Speaker 1: time I went there, it felt like the heat was
Speaker 1: off and we were just.
Speaker 3: Not only that, but it's like change the menu.
Speaker 2: It's been years, like again having a few staple items
Speaker 2: like have your Caesar, but like all right, like just
Speaker 2: nothing ever changed or was that good And it's a
Speaker 2: lot of good memories, but that's it. Like, yeah, the York, Yeah,
Speaker 2: but I guess it's gonna be a venue yeah across
Speaker 2: from the Goldfish.
Speaker 3: A real war.
Speaker 1: Totally, and like there's all kinds of wars because Belle's
Speaker 1: is a bar. Now, I mean, this is we're just
Speaker 1: talking local now, We're just talking local commerce in Liza's
Speaker 1: old neighborhood in my current but listen back to SNL fifty.
Speaker 3: I was a little bit surprised that Ryan Reynolds made
Speaker 3: that little joke. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I someone was just like, I don't know if my
Speaker 2: wife was a sexually assaulted at work, I don't know
Speaker 2: if I'd be making little jokes about it.
Speaker 3: That's what I mean. That's what I mean.
Speaker 1: This is a multimillion dollar lawsuit that could destroy her career,
Speaker 1: the other guy's career, whatever. And like, well, Bethany, I
Speaker 1: watched a Bethany TikTok.
Speaker 3: I watched Bethany.
Speaker 1: Bethany is Bethany has a magnifying glass up to her
Speaker 1: eye and is like a private eye for this fucking case.
Speaker 3: She's talks about it so much I don't even follow her.
Speaker 1: She like pops up in my for you page being
Speaker 1: like and another thing about bal Downy, like.
Speaker 3: You know, she's like always in it.
Speaker 2: She says, it's like everyone that's a who's who in
Speaker 2: Hollywood was there. So to them, it's not it's about
Speaker 2: solidifying like these people like me, like I'm in with
Speaker 2: this crowd like these because if all these people are
Speaker 2: okay with me, then everyone's okay with me. So it's
Speaker 2: that and I need to make a joke so that
Speaker 2: everybody's positive. I was there and it's like a full yeah, wow,
Speaker 2: I guess. And then Bill Hayter wasn't there. No, Stefan,
Speaker 2: Bill Hayter wasn't there. Oh, I was really looking forward
Speaker 2: to us.
Speaker 3: I said.
Speaker 2: It was like scheduling, but it's like, no, it's on
Speaker 2: a weekend. I feel like he didn't want to.
Speaker 3: Go interesting, interesting, Interesting.
Speaker 2: He did a pre taped thing, but I heard I
Speaker 2: once said he's like he didn't love his time there, but.
Speaker 3: Still seems like some of you would. I was.
Speaker 1: I think I've told this before, but I was working
Speaker 1: at SNL when he did his first show and it
Speaker 1: was him and Andy Samberg and I met them at
Speaker 1: the after after party and they were both like, how
Speaker 1: do you guys.
Speaker 3: Think it went?
Speaker 1: We were like, you guys were great, Like we were
Speaker 1: like the Pages and we were like hyping them up,
Speaker 1: you know, because we didn't know that they were going
Speaker 1: to go on to become like two of like the
Speaker 1: big ones, you know, and we were just like, you
Speaker 1: guys were awesome.
Speaker 3: And I think Bill Hater made out with one of
Speaker 3: my friends.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so what did you guys do in between when
Speaker 2: everyone went to the after, like to the after after all?
Speaker 3: What would you do to kill time?
Speaker 1: You've been to SNL, so you've probably seen the Pages
Speaker 1: are in their uniforms and they now they wear Brooks
Speaker 1: Brothers cute gray uniforms.
Speaker 3: We wore navy.
Speaker 1: Dresses from Casual Corner with navy tights and navy shoes
Speaker 1: and a navy blazer and our little pins and like
Speaker 1: we called them our blues.
Speaker 3: Like that was like you had to get in your blues.
Speaker 1: So we would go to someone's apartment, get out of
Speaker 1: our blues, get into our tube tops and like whatever
Speaker 1: and start pregaming because you had to like start drinking
Speaker 1: because the show gets over at one. By the time
Speaker 1: you're done whatever, you're getting to someone's house at two,
Speaker 1: But like the after after is not really getting rocking
Speaker 1: into like three p thirty, so like we would be
Speaker 1: like we got to go like get catch up and
Speaker 1: and and be also not spent.
Speaker 3: We were making ten dollars an hour.
Speaker 1: We don't want to spend a ton of money at
Speaker 1: like you know the bar, so and listen were the
Speaker 1: bars open bar?
Speaker 3: I don't remember.
Speaker 1: I would assume they would have been open bar, but
Speaker 1: maybe not for us randoms. But you always had to
Speaker 1: have a password. You'd have a password to go get
Speaker 1: into the after after, and like whoever was the SNL
Speaker 1: page would find out because we were there'd be like
Speaker 1: three dedicated SNL pages, like I was the cone In
Speaker 1: dedicated page, and then there'd be three SNL dedicated pages
Speaker 1: and then the rest of us.
Speaker 3: Just worked the show.
Speaker 1: So the main pages would like tell us like here's
Speaker 1: where it is, here's where you go. And I absolutely
Speaker 1: requested all I want for Christmas is you in April
Speaker 1: at a couple of those parties, you know, so we
Speaker 1: made our mark.
Speaker 3: Uh, but yeah, it's it's fun.
Speaker 1: Like I had a blast, like to be able to
Speaker 1: even stand in the studio. One time Jeff Zucker tapped
Speaker 1: me on this on the shoulder and goes, how did
Speaker 1: this do it at dress? This sketch and I go, great, Like,
Speaker 1: what am I going to tattle on us and tell
Speaker 1: you that the sketch bombed a dress like I was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: it was great.
Speaker 3: It was so funny. I don't know who that is.
Speaker 1: He was thee he was the CEO of NBC and NBCUniversal.
Speaker 1: He was like the headhead like so I was like that,
Speaker 1: and then he went on to start to see it
Speaker 1: and then he went on to run CNN and now
Speaker 1: I think I don't know, he's maybe been canceled. I
Speaker 1: don't really know what's going on with him. But yeah,
Speaker 1: my time at SNL was so fun. But I was
Speaker 1: just a little worker bee and I can't Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: excited to watch the long show. And the clips I've
Speaker 1: seen were fun and it seemed like a fun at first.
Speaker 1: I was like, so it kicked off with like a
Speaker 1: music thing.
Speaker 2: Well, Friday was the concert and this Sunday was like
Speaker 2: the big thing.
Speaker 3: Okay, got it, got it?
Speaker 2: But I think Miley and Brittany Howard still performed at
Speaker 2: on the Sunday Show.
Speaker 3: Who's Brittany Howard from Alabama? Sheikhs? Oh cool?
Speaker 2: And then Aubrey Plaza introduced them, and it's been her
Speaker 2: first sighting since the tragedy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I saw that. I saw that. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 3: I made it.
Speaker 2: But I thought the lobster thing is like the John
Speaker 2: Mulaney Pete Davidson, like the lobster and the diner.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: I there was like a giant one of that where
Speaker 2: I think, like, you know, just the celebrity parade. I
Speaker 2: did see a thing about celebs where like it used
Speaker 2: to be not cool to sell out, like you'd be like, eh,
Speaker 2: you fucking sell out, and then it stopped and I
Speaker 2: was like, oh great, everyone's making their money, and now
Speaker 2: it's like can people have some shame, Like I mean,
Speaker 2: fucking losers?
Speaker 3: The super Bowl it's.
Speaker 2: Just celeb commercial after celebcri It's just.
Speaker 1: Like it's it's awesome change. It's also like half the
Speaker 1: time taking jobs from like people that like just want
Speaker 1: to get a cast in a commercial that's like, oh
Speaker 1: they decided to cast like a super celebrity instead, you know,
Speaker 1: and no annoying. It's crazy because who do you remember
Speaker 1: being the first? Like I this isn't definitely like the first,
Speaker 1: but I remember being like, why is Catherine's data Jones
Speaker 1: doing tmobile commercials. Like I remember being like she is
Speaker 1: so famous and she is like a singer and a
Speaker 1: dancer and this like respected actress, Like why is she
Speaker 1: like do do do?
Speaker 3: Do do? Like why is she doing a T mobile commercial?
Speaker 2: And then you know, I guess if it's like a
Speaker 2: quick days of work for a few million dollars, why not.
Speaker 2: But it's just like, I don't know, there just used
Speaker 2: to be a thing of like not wanting to be
Speaker 2: a sellout, and now there's totally it's not even a
Speaker 2: hint of that. It's like everything is just an ad
Speaker 2: and something is someone's trying to sell you something. They
Speaker 2: all want to start a business, yeah, right ahead of
Speaker 2: food book.
Speaker 3: I don't know. It's just like blame yeah, And it.
Speaker 1: Seems like it seemed like, yeah, because did you did
Speaker 1: you sort of think of this because maybe Meryl Streep
Speaker 1: thought like it would be kind of selling out to
Speaker 1: go on SNL when she was like a really respected
Speaker 1: actress back in the day, or like she was so serious.
Speaker 2: Maybe No, I was thinking of it in terms of
Speaker 2: like it was just celeb central, the SNL thing, and
Speaker 2: then I was just thinking about the super Bowl, and
Speaker 2: then I was just thinking about like this thing I
Speaker 2: saw about how it used to like not be cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, but then I was happy.
Speaker 2: I remember seeing like Amy polar and commercials being like,
Speaker 2: hell yeah, I'm loving that Amy Pohlar is making money.
Speaker 2: I remember thinking that, and now I'm just like eight
Speaker 2: celebrities in this duncan Ad Bill Belichick's Teen Bride, Like
Speaker 2: I just don't.
Speaker 3: Well that, like ooh, yuck.
Speaker 1: That gives me a bad feeling, that whole thing.
Speaker 3: But that's what I thought about it. No, Meryll.
Speaker 2: There was like a list I read of like people
Speaker 2: surprisingly like Leonardo DiCaprio's Never Hosted. I also think it's
Speaker 2: like a vulnerable, crazy thing. But Meryl would of course
Speaker 2: kill it. I don't know why some people just have
Speaker 2: never or maybe because their movies are serious, like Hi,
Speaker 2: and I'm in The Iron Lady, you know, like.
Speaker 1: I know, but it's like at the same growing up,
Speaker 1: growing up, she was in like Postcards from the Edge,
Speaker 1: she was in She Devil, one of my favorite movies
Speaker 1: of all time, so funny like she was in Death
Speaker 1: Becomes Her like all these great comedy roles like that.
Speaker 2: It's like, why, okay, forty celebrity shockingly never hosted, Marishka
Speaker 2: Hargate being one of them, Christian Bale, Kate Blanchette, Sandra Bullock.
Speaker 2: I think that's pretty shocking to me. Yeah, Viola Davis,
Speaker 2: Leonardo DiCaprio, Morgan Freeman, Angelina, Julie, Jessica Lang. I mean,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't imagine Jessica Lang. I'm not surprised, No, she's not,
Speaker 2: but she would kill She would do an al Pacino
Speaker 2: Brad Pitt, although he did make an Emmy nominated appearance
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty, so I don't know what that is.
Speaker 2: Julia Roberts, that's shocking. I can't believe in the nineties
Speaker 2: she wouldn't have done it. Meryl she Downzel Washington, Yeah, weird.
Speaker 2: I don't think Christian Bale should do it. He's angry.
Speaker 2: But Sandra Bullock and Robert's not doing it is like
Speaker 2: pretty shocking to me because they're also America's sweethearts. Like
Speaker 2: they are good actresses, but they're America's sweetheart vibes like
Speaker 2: right and doing comedies and like charming, like we love them.
Speaker 2: Why wouldn't they do it?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Like Sandra Bullock is very funny, Yeah, it's such a
Speaker 1: cool history.
Speaker 2: It really is like whatever they I mean, I just
Speaker 2: wish like an old out of touch man didn't have
Speaker 2: Elon Musk and fucking Trump post and like.
Speaker 1: I do too, I really like I listen to this
Speaker 1: so outdated. I listened to this like podcast one time
Speaker 1: and I feel really oh it was like a Malcolm Glodwell,
Speaker 1: which whatever.
Speaker 3: People have mixed feelings about him, but he did.
Speaker 1: This podcast about like this episode of his podcast about
Speaker 1: like satire and how like satire in the United States
Speaker 1: has like lost its teeth because we used to make
Speaker 1: fun of things to like call them out, and now
Speaker 1: instead of we make we'll make fun of Sarah Palin,
Speaker 1: but then we'll invite her to be on the show,
Speaker 1: or like we'll make fun of Donald Trump and then
Speaker 1: invite him to be on the show. And it's like,
Speaker 1: so you're not actually calling out anybody because you're inviting
Speaker 1: them in. Like the teeth is out of the satire
Speaker 1: and so like, I am super disappointed that they had
Speaker 1: Elon Musk and Donald Trump on, you know, like I
Speaker 1: think that sucks, but whatever, everybody makes mistakes.
Speaker 3: I do also think that the rumor is he's going
Speaker 3: to step down now that the fiftieth. After we pass
Speaker 3: the fiftieth.
Speaker 1: Lauren, fuck yeah, And the two people I've heard bandied
Speaker 1: about are Seth and Tina, so we'll see.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, though I feel like those are obviouss me but I.
Speaker 1: But somebody was telling me they were like the thing
Speaker 1: is is like Lauren's the one that gets all the
Speaker 1: money for that show. Like there he kind of like
Speaker 1: swings his dick around and gets like a bunch of
Speaker 1: money for like these digital shorts and all this big
Speaker 1: production and like whatever, and that they don't know that
Speaker 1: without him, the network will like keep giving it the
Speaker 1: same amount of money.
Speaker 3: But I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't think he's like give it to anyone. I
Speaker 2: think he's going to die there. I think he's a psychopath.
Speaker 2: I think he likes what he's creating. He's eighty, so
Speaker 2: it's fine. But it's like I just don't think he's
Speaker 2: gonna act normal or make a normal decision. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: interesting though I'm interested. Dan Akroyd also wasn't there. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1: I loved Lorraine Newman and Jane Curtin holding up Gilda's picture.
Speaker 3: That was so sweet. That was very sweet.
Speaker 2: I was hanging out with Devin Walker right after it,
Speaker 2: and I was like asking, he goes, you seem to
Speaker 2: know more about what happened than I do. I go,
Speaker 2: I've been watching everything on the internet. I've been looking
Speaker 2: at everything, every outfit.
Speaker 3: He's like, you crazy.
Speaker 1: It was like, yeah, it's interesting, and it was taking
Speaker 1: over our feeds for like the whole weekend.
Speaker 2: I mean I saw like nothing else but that, Like, oh,
Speaker 2: Sarah Sherman was dressed so nice. And then everyone's listening
Speaker 2: to this three weeks later. We've already like our country
Speaker 2: will be nuclearly bombed by the time this comes out.
Speaker 1: And people will be like just cooking dinner at the
Speaker 1: camps listening to your podcast.
Speaker 2: I just can't believe we're living this life of like
Speaker 2: joy and terror and frozen.
Speaker 3: This I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh but our next intro, we'll be able to
Speaker 2: talk about Luigi's trials, so.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, it's that yes, And I will have watched
Speaker 1: I will be caught up on drug Race by then.
Speaker 1: I've got a lot to catch up on. Also, I'm
Speaker 1: going to New York next week. I'm gonna be God,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have my laptop. I'm gonna have a TV
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna have no kids, so I'm catching up
Speaker 1: on a lot of shit.
Speaker 3: I'm excited.
Speaker 2: That's those are your big New York plan, Those are
Speaker 2: my big New York plans.
Speaker 1: I'm like, i gotta catch up on all my shit,
Speaker 1: like drag Race White Lights.
Speaker 3: Are you gonna see Connecticut people or just New York people.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go see my parents on the drive up
Speaker 1: to New Hampshire. I'm gonna stop in and just give
Speaker 1: them a quick high. But I don't think I'm gonna
Speaker 1: see like my brother or anybody else in Connecticut. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be in the city most of the time.
Speaker 1: But I'm excited. I mean, it is gonna be February
Speaker 1: in New York, so I am nervous, but I'm excited
Speaker 1: to be back because I New York.
Speaker 3: I love New York.
Speaker 1: But yeah, should we get started. We've got a great
Speaker 1: episode for today. As always, go to That's Messed Up
Speaker 1: Live dot com. You can buy some merch you can
Speaker 1: check out Lisa's tour dates, follow us, rate us reviews.
Speaker 3: Whatever you gotta do.
Speaker 1: But That's Messed Up Live dot com has all the
Speaker 1: links that you need in your life. Also, promo codes
Speaker 1: for all of our ads. If you're interested in getting
Speaker 1: a little deal. I'm seeing me live, I'm on the road. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's on there too, all Lisa's dates go check her
Speaker 1: out and uh and that's it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's get started.
Speaker 2: So we are doing Redemption season three, episode six.
Speaker 3: Wow, fresh off nine to eleven November.
Speaker 1: It is the hallmark of our podcast that we always
Speaker 1: put ourselves in time in relation to nine.
Speaker 3: To eleven November. Second. That's yeah, we're not even two
Speaker 3: months out.
Speaker 2: I wonder when they came back, Like they are crazy,
Speaker 2: they don't really rest, but I think everyone rested for
Speaker 2: a while.
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know. I wasn't there. Yeah.
Speaker 1: There was also the thing where the Twin Towers were
Speaker 1: in the opening credits, and I think they had to
Speaker 1: like remove them, unlike me and my college dorm room,
Speaker 1: where I had just put up a full wallpaper of
Speaker 1: the New York City skyline featuring the Twin Towers and
Speaker 1: it stayed up for my entire senior year of college.
Speaker 1: So we said, the Twin Towers are still standing strong
Speaker 1: in high Rise, which was the name of my dorm.
Speaker 2: But people were like scared when they saw them. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: everybody would walk in and go whoa.
Speaker 1: But they did think it looked cool, like it was
Speaker 1: a cool wallpaper we found at home.
Speaker 3: Depot.
Speaker 2: Okay, redemption, redemption. We're in court and Stablers on the sand.
Speaker 2: He's being asked about stating under oath that he tested
Speaker 2: everyone that had any personal contact with Leslie Bellow, and
Speaker 2: you know, he's like correct, But then they're like, well,
Speaker 2: he didn't test the teacher or the bus driver, the plumber,
Speaker 2: so in fact, you didn't test everyone that came in
Speaker 2: contact with her. And he's like, well, Leslie didn't identify
Speaker 2: the plumber as her rapist, so and the lawyers like,
Speaker 2: well eight year olds Lie. So then Cabot has an objection,
Speaker 2: and she does stand. They don't always stand, Did I
Speaker 2: always have to stand?
Speaker 1: Barbara like leans back during his objections, Like I think
Speaker 1: it's like a different I think it's.
Speaker 3: A style thing.
Speaker 1: Like she stands, Casey, I think sometimes stands. Barba's like objection,
Speaker 1: you're on her leading, you know, like Barba's drinking an
Speaker 1: espresso while he's doing it, Like, but yeah, she stands.
Speaker 2: He withdraws though, and goes and sits down. Cabot redirects
Speaker 2: and says whom did Leslie below identify as her rapists?
Speaker 2: And Stabler says her grandfather Frederick Bellow dramatic music. Sabler
Speaker 2: walks out of court and Leslie's in the hallway. She's
Speaker 2: holding a bear. This bear has a purple outfit and
Speaker 2: the mom's there. She's scared, but he's gonna pump He's
Speaker 2: pumping her up that like she's gonna do a good
Speaker 2: job on stand. She's very scared, but Sablor knows that
Speaker 2: she can do it. She hands her stuff to bear
Speaker 2: over to him, Wow huge and goes into the courtroom.
Speaker 2: Sabler says he can't be in there, but that they're
Speaker 2: always in there.
Speaker 1: I know, I don't know why. He's like I can't.
Speaker 1: He's like, I gotta go. I suddenly have to be
Speaker 1: there for my own kids. Like I don't know why
Speaker 1: he has to leave. He's always in lives, always in there,
Speaker 1: like with the victims.
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 3: So that's a little confusing to me.
Speaker 1: So also, like this fucking guy, I'm just saying, like
Speaker 1: I know, this isn't even like the main part of
Speaker 1: the episode, but like you're a man who has uh
Speaker 1: sexually assaulted your own granddaughter, like you obviously and you've
Speaker 1: been caught and now you're putting her through a trial.
Speaker 1: It's like double monstrosity, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Like if you were just like, oh my god, I'm
Speaker 1: a monster. I've been doing this in secret. I'm sick. Okay.
Speaker 1: But he's like, nope, take me to trial. I want
Speaker 1: to prove that she's a liar in front, like fucking nuts.
Speaker 3: This is nuts. Now, you know.
Speaker 2: We cut the stabler walking into the precincts. He doesn't
Speaker 2: talk to anybody, and Benson's like, how did it go?
Speaker 2: And we could tell by the body language not good?
Speaker 2: Okay yea, and he goes They let him walk. That's crazy.
Speaker 2: If he had the STD that his granddaughter had, I
Speaker 2: don't know what more evidence that jury really needed.
Speaker 1: Right, And she's telling you she's eight, Like that's eight
Speaker 1: year olds?
Speaker 3: No, what's up? Yeah? They both have gone rha in
Speaker 3: the house like I just fuck that jury. Yeah.
Speaker 2: He pushes all the coffee cups to the ground and
Speaker 2: says the whole system is screwed up and runs off.
Speaker 2: But the city never sleeps, so they have to go
Speaker 2: to another crime scene. A UNI breaks it down at
Speaker 2: a no Hoo apartment so to rape homicide Jennifer Walton
Speaker 2: twenty five. Her friend discovered her after the landlady let
Speaker 2: her in. There's a whole punch through the bedroom door,
Speaker 2: and then we see her in the bed. It's bloody,
Speaker 2: hands bound behind her back with panty hose. They use
Speaker 2: panty hose a lot in the beginning seasons. Yes, every
Speaker 2: woman has panty hose. They're always lying around, Hi, They're
Speaker 2: always being used to tie people up. Yeah, they do.
Speaker 3: And then face pummeled throats.
Speaker 2: Slick Finn finds a white rose and Munch says, oh,
Speaker 2: a romantic psycho sailors in the corner, going damn. I
Speaker 2: thought my day couldn't get any worse. Always about him.
Speaker 2: But we go right into the credits and we're still
Speaker 2: at the crime scene. We're talking to the neighbors who's
Speaker 2: holding a fluffy white dog and she's saying how she
Speaker 2: would watch the victim's dog. When she went away last
Speaker 2: month for the weekend with a man named David. They
Speaker 2: were friendly, she says, she saw him sometimes. He was tall,
Speaker 2: graying hair, brought her flowers all different types, and she
Speaker 2: heard them fighting.
Speaker 3: Last night.
Speaker 2: She was yelling something about trying like her, trying to
Speaker 2: ruin his life. She feels bad for not checking in
Speaker 2: on her. Now they go to the friend who found
Speaker 2: her and she's holding the victims dog. It's a King
Speaker 2: Charles guy, were King Charles Spaniel spaniel.
Speaker 3: There we go.
Speaker 2: Cute, cute dog and they they were gonna meet for
Speaker 2: drinks at nine, but eight thirty she called, saying she's
Speaker 2: gonna be late, and she did. Hear a man's voice
Speaker 2: in the background, sailor's being a dick as this girl
Speaker 2: is crying, she's flustered, and he's being snied and sarcastic
Speaker 2: to her, and he goes, oh, is there anything you're
Speaker 2: sure about? Benson's watching him be a dick from afar.
Speaker 2: She calls him, you know, She's like, all right, come
Speaker 2: over here. She says that it looks like the victim
Speaker 2: was entertaining. There's wine glasses. It seems like the first
Speaker 2: blow happened at the on the couch and then was
Speaker 2: dragged into the bedroom. No sign of a struggle, but
Speaker 2: so that means the first blow really knocked her out
Speaker 2: and like stunned her. Melinda chimes in that she thinks
Speaker 2: the purp was left handed. The knife and blood spatter
Speaker 2: at point two it being left handed. I don't think
Speaker 2: this comes up again, though, so that I know I
Speaker 2: was saying that.
Speaker 1: I was like, Lisa will tell me, but I don't
Speaker 1: think I ever bring up the left handed thing again.
Speaker 3: They never do, so that's funny.
Speaker 2: So then this dude showers and washes the wineglass a
Speaker 2: knife and then takes the dirty towels and stuff with him.
Speaker 2: Stabler goes, wow, you have it all figured out, and
Speaker 2: she goes, yeah, at least I'm trying. We're back at
Speaker 2: Craigan's office, all hands on deck, including George Wang. He
Speaker 2: thinks the violence is soothing to him because it was
Speaker 2: a lot of rage but not out of control, and
Speaker 2: that he has euphoria after like the initial outburst, but
Speaker 2: then it calms him down, and so the more he maims,
Speaker 2: the better he feels, and once the rage goes away,
Speaker 2: he's kind of like a gentle loving you know. Tucks
Speaker 2: her into bed, folds her clothing flower on the pillow,
Speaker 2: and then he also says that this dude wooed her
Speaker 2: before he killed her. So George is thinking this guy
Speaker 2: is smart and charming. Stabler walks off. He's like checks
Speaker 2: out fully, Benson chases him down. I'm like so annoyed.
Speaker 2: It's like, just let him be a little baby. I
Speaker 2: don't like, we have a crime to solve. But they're
Speaker 2: gonna go talk to the boyfriend and then and like
Speaker 2: deal with her work, and then Finn and Munch will
Speaker 2: focus on forensics. So then at Melinda's how oh yeah,
Speaker 2: this girl's tore up. Oh it's rough, teeth beaten out,
Speaker 2: like yeah, he hit her so hard that her teeth
Speaker 2: fell out, like this is crazy. No semen, but spermicide.
Speaker 2: And then ding ding ding weird two circular incisions on
Speaker 2: her chest where the skin was taken out. Melinda says,
Speaker 2: what this woman went through death was a blessing.
Speaker 1: And you know, this reminds me of Silence of the
Speaker 1: Lambs right away, of course, right the removing of the
Speaker 1: skin piece, you know, I was like, oh, it's a
Speaker 1: Buffalo bill type.
Speaker 3: But you know, we find.
Speaker 2: Out they go to talk to a woman at the
Speaker 2: store and her coworker has been found dead, but she
Speaker 2: has not stopped putting clothes away.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's on the move. She's got to restock.
Speaker 2: And the thing is this is classic SVU, but it
Speaker 2: still needs to be mentioned, and it is one of
Speaker 2: the most egregious I've ever seen, Like you.
Speaker 1: Could even ask your manager, Hey, the cops are here
Speaker 1: to talk about my our dead coworker, Like could could
Speaker 1: I leave for five minutes?
Speaker 2: Can I go outside? Like the manager wouldn't even care.
Speaker 2: It's like you always have to stock. There's no rush,
Speaker 2: there's no like no one was at the store. Like
Speaker 2: the way she was put I mean, maybe that's her,
Speaker 2: like the way she deals with stress, but just put
Speaker 2: the clothes down.
Speaker 1: If we ever get to talk to like Dick woll
Speaker 1: for like or people that direct the episodes, I'd be
Speaker 1: interested to know about, like is there something that's like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's better, like it's better visually to keep the people
Speaker 1: moving fast, because like it's one thing to like be
Speaker 1: on one side of a counter and then move to
Speaker 1: the other side to grab a book or something. These
Speaker 1: people are like running half the time they're talking to
Speaker 1: the cops. Like the the clip at which they are
Speaker 1: getting their jobs done, it's so I mean, it's a
Speaker 1: full SNL sketch, but like it's it's like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: cracks me up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, So then they ask her about like you know,
Speaker 2: do you know about this guy that was heard at
Speaker 2: her house? And she goes, yeah, and he's a married man,
Speaker 2: but that never stopped him. He was always chasing women
Speaker 2: and he was shameless. Tammy from Cosmetics even filed a
Speaker 2: harassment suit. He never backed off. She had a transfer
Speaker 2: to a store in Brooklyn, and that's when he turned
Speaker 2: all his attention to our girl. The woman says, like
Speaker 2: she warned her, but she kept insisting that they were
Speaker 2: just friends.
Speaker 3: So we have to go find this guy. And he's
Speaker 3: so creepy.
Speaker 2: He's touching this woman's legs as he puts shoes on,
Speaker 2: like he's in the shoe department. So it is, uh,
Speaker 2: it's creepy. It's so touchy. So we're immediately in cement
Speaker 2: room bars. He has a bandage wrapped around his hand
Speaker 2: and he says he broke a knuckle banging it against
Speaker 2: the door. Hello, we saw a hole in the door,
Speaker 2: so ding ding ding, So they bring up I keep saying,
Speaker 2: so I think more than I normally do.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna stop.
Speaker 1: Well, can I jump in really quickly here to say
Speaker 1: that this shoeman is soap opera royalty. He is just
Speaker 1: for any of the soapy girlies. He was on All
Speaker 1: My Children for twelve hundred and eight episodes, it has
Speaker 1: on his IMDb, and and then I think he oh yeah,
Speaker 1: and then he moved Young and the Restless in General Hospital.
Speaker 3: But for me, he's Tad Martin.
Speaker 1: Tad and Dixie were like the couple for me on
Speaker 1: All my Children. They're like the Luke and Laura of
Speaker 1: my all my of all my children for me, I
Speaker 1: mean also All my Children also had Susan Lucci, who
Speaker 1: I was like obsessed with, but like Tad and Dixie
Speaker 1: were like the couple you were like rooting for on
Speaker 1: All my children. So if anyone any Pine Valley heads
Speaker 1: out there, this is him anyway.
Speaker 3: Go on.
Speaker 2: So to me to interrupt, I don't mind. I mean
Speaker 2: it's good. He needs to get his flowers. He was
Speaker 2: just the man. So I'm sure you got really excited.
Speaker 2: They yeah, So they bring up that you know, we
Speaker 2: know you were Jennifer's and we you know you were
Speaker 2: her yelling, and then Sailor leans in and goes, oh,
Speaker 2: I have didn't make you feel good beating a woman.
Speaker 2: He denies it obviously, and he's like, what is what?
Speaker 2: What was this about the door I'll pay for the
Speaker 2: damn door. Sabor leans in again and like his hands
Speaker 2: are on his knees and he goes, what set you off,
Speaker 2: shoe boy, and he says she was going to file
Speaker 2: a complaint with the boss of harassing her. And he's like,
Speaker 2: I only asked her to dinner and they say, so
Speaker 2: you murdered her, and his face is legit shocked, stun
Speaker 2: and he goes what he turns to Benson like just
Speaker 2: flabberg acid, She's dead. Yeah. Stabler does not like this attitude,
Speaker 2: grabs him, pulls him up, slams him on the grates
Speaker 2: of the window. He is scared as how you know, angry,
Speaker 2: angry elliot and Benson you know mommy Mommy is like,
Speaker 2: leave him alone. And so then he says she threw
Speaker 2: me out around seven thirty, and they're like, you're a
Speaker 2: fucking liar, and he goes, no, no, no, I was
Speaker 2: already at the hospital by eight. So then he breathes
Speaker 2: like a sigh of relief because he does know that
Speaker 2: he has an alibi at this point. So Stabler releases
Speaker 2: the grip just a little bit and they all run out.
Speaker 2: Benson is like, bitch, what the hell are you doing.
Speaker 2: Do you want to get sued? And he's rolling up
Speaker 2: his sleeves and speed walking. She is so annoyed, but
Speaker 2: again being mature, So then we had to mercy general
Speaker 2: and what do we have here? David Steadman signed in
Speaker 2: at seven forty seven just discharged. Ew I don't like
Speaker 2: saying discharged. Discharge at twelve fifty two am. They ask
Speaker 2: why it took so long, and it's because every time
Speaker 2: he hit on the nurse, she put him on the
Speaker 2: bottom of the list.
Speaker 3: Love that doing the lord's work.
Speaker 2: Stabler runs off again and guess what, put your money
Speaker 2: on it. Benson's chasing him down the hallway and it's
Speaker 2: like damn like I and in between them rushes in
Speaker 2: a stretcher with EMTs and it's like we hear face pummeled,
Speaker 2: five inch laceration to the throat. Benson on the phone
Speaker 2: trying to hear something. Munch is on the line and
Speaker 2: she's like, I think that person on this stretcher that's
Speaker 2: victim number two. So they head on back and obviously
Speaker 2: this was a commercial break, and so now we're at
Speaker 2: the center board of the precinct. The second victim is
Speaker 2: Celia Mitchum, she's twenty five, a teacher's aid, and the
Speaker 2: landlord found her tucked into bed with all the same
Speaker 2: details from the other crime. So they are looking at
Speaker 2: ye capt to see if there's other crimes that fit
Speaker 2: the mo because obviously he's like like when he was,
Speaker 2: maybe more sloppy, because he's way too organized now. But
Speaker 2: he's not a first timer. This is all according to Huang.
Speaker 2: You know, he's like wine, chocolates, roses, that's all romance,
Speaker 2: you know, white roses, that's a symbol of innocence, purity.
Speaker 2: Huang's like, unfortunately, no woman fulfills his romantic fantasy, and
Speaker 2: that's why he goes nuts. You know, he's frustrated and
Speaker 2: it keeps escalating, and he studies these women. He knows them.
Speaker 2: He's white educated, middle management and stabler. With his feet
Speaker 2: up on the desks, goes, why didn't you pick up
Speaker 2: any of this before? Huang goes, because a pattern didn't
Speaker 2: emerge until the second victim, you fool. Quang thinks, such
Speaker 2: a little bit, it's honestly just so annoying. Quang thinks, he's, uh, well, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's like a bad trait, you know, like if you're
Speaker 2: in a bad mood.
Speaker 3: Everyone has to be in a bad mood. Yeah, that's
Speaker 3: like annoying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, bad quality exactly, Huang thinks. Now, Huang's like, I
Speaker 2: bet he's been doing it like five to ten years.
Speaker 2: And then we hear a new deep man voice. You'll
Speaker 2: have to go hell of a lot further back than that.
Speaker 2: And this man knows Elliott, and Elliott knows him, and
Speaker 2: his name is John and he and he needs a
Speaker 2: few minutes with Cragan. Craigan is expecting him. He's like,
Speaker 2: Detective Hawkins, come this way. And then Craigan invites Elliott
Speaker 2: to join the meeting as well, which is weird. Why
Speaker 2: not Benson, you know, she's actually doing her job and
Speaker 2: not being a big baby fit is like, who the
Speaker 2: hell is that?
Speaker 3: And Stanbler goes, what whyatt here? Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's not his name? No, but that he's
Speaker 2: making a joke. Why but what is that?
Speaker 1: Wyatterup is like an outlaw or something? Right, Like I
Speaker 1: think I don't know, Like, let me look. I think
Speaker 1: it's like a reference to Yes, it's like a great question.
Speaker 1: I've like literally been to bars called Wyerps and I
Speaker 1: like don't really know who he was, like a cop,
Speaker 1: but I think like he was a cop in like
Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds or the nineteen hundreds, No, the eighteen hundreds,
Speaker 1: and I think he did like the Deadwood type time period,
Speaker 1: you know, and then he I think was like a
Speaker 1: cop that did things on his own, like like skirted
Speaker 1: the rules and shit. You know.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, I think he's making that reference, but I
Speaker 2: did have to google that. I don't so renegade cop
Speaker 2: and so Craigan wants the door shut. Shit is getting real.
Speaker 2: Stabler took this man's class at the academy. Hawkins goes, well,
Speaker 2: do you remember the sohost strangler, and you know, Sabler's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: Roger Berry early eighties beating raped his victims and then
Speaker 2: strangle them, and Hawkins put him away. Well he's like,
Speaker 2: well he's out. He was pearled six months ago. And
Speaker 2: Stabler's like what. Stabler fights it immediately. It's like, well no,
Speaker 2: because there was a knife, not strangling, and the Hawkins
Speaker 2: is like yeah, but tucks into bed you know White Rose,
Speaker 2: and Stabler says it, well, it could be a copycat,
Speaker 2: you know. But we find out that information about the
Speaker 2: White Rose was never revealed to the media. So then
Speaker 2: Stable goes, yeah, but he was a biter, and it's like, duh,
Speaker 2: he cut out the encircles in the skin so you
Speaker 2: couldn't see the bites and do the dental records like
Speaker 2: you fool I wrote a real noss ferratu on her hands. Okay,
Speaker 2: So so now Stabler has to work with Hawkins. And
Speaker 2: you know, I always love when they give Stabler a
Speaker 2: man with an attitude that he has to deal with.
Speaker 2: This has happened I think three times where they're like, oh,
Speaker 2: you want to know what it's like to work with
Speaker 2: an asshole, here you go.
Speaker 3: And then he has to like learn this lesson. Sabler's livid.
Speaker 2: He's like, oh, I need a babysitter and crays like
Speaker 2: this is no reflection on you. Sibber says this isn't right,
Speaker 2: but he has no choice. So Hawkins is addressing the
Speaker 2: team and he goes, fuck, I missed one fucking parole
Speaker 2: hearing and they let this lunatic out. Sailor comes out
Speaker 2: and Ben goes, wow, you know a hawk's areal, take
Speaker 2: charge kind of guy. So we know that his PO
Speaker 2: has him working at a flower shop, so they're gonna
Speaker 2: send Munch to the flower shop, and then the angry
Speaker 2: boys are gonna go to the apartment. Benson's gonna go
Speaker 2: meet up with the lab in forensics. Everyone is annoyed
Speaker 2: by him, but they're following along and Benson is with
Speaker 2: an emmy I've never seen in my life. And there's
Speaker 2: no evidence on any of the romance items. They did, though,
Speaker 2: find the same navy slip knot was used on both victims,
Speaker 2: and they found a contact lens. It's for a twenty
Speaker 2: over one point fifty prescription. So this guy was blind
Speaker 2: on his way out, they said, at least in one eye.
Speaker 2: But there's no DNA in the contact. But then they
Speaker 2: did find a hair in the drains that did not
Speaker 2: match either victim, but both hairs matched each other. So
Speaker 2: that's huge, I mean, that's really yeah. So like if
Speaker 2: there's one root on any of these hairs and we
Speaker 2: get a DNA swab like from you know, when he
Speaker 2: was paroled, we could all we could figure this all out.
Speaker 2: We got to find this guy. So they're at the
Speaker 2: apartment and the men are walking and Hawkins goes as
Speaker 2: your partner always this friendly, and Sailor goes, oh no,
Speaker 2: she just doesn't like you get him so they kick
Speaker 2: the door down and there's you know, Sailor's like, well,
Speaker 2: we don't have a warrant, and he goes, well, if
Speaker 2: it's a pearle officer, the pearle officers can do what
Speaker 2: they want. And he goes, well, I don't see a
Speaker 2: parole officer around here, and he goes he'll be here,
Speaker 2: doesn't matter, and it's just like this is so the
Speaker 2: episode of Sex and the City when like Charlotte and
Speaker 2: Samantha learn about like being in like suddenly he's the
Speaker 2: guy that has to be like, wait, what about the rules.
Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, you never follow the fucking roll. Saber
Speaker 2: was like, are we sure this is even the apartment?
Speaker 2: And you know, are like, Huang sat our dude, is
Speaker 2: middle management meticulous.
Speaker 3: That's not what this apartment is. Like.
Speaker 2: This apartment is bear and messy and there's a lot
Speaker 2: of paintings of tugboats and ferry boats and but the
Speaker 2: bed has hospital corners. So that's meticulous. But I also
Speaker 2: think that's trauma for them being in jail for eighteen years.
Speaker 1: Right, I also do hospital corners, but you're right, jail trauma.
Speaker 1: My mom made me do hospital corners. She was like
Speaker 1: she always said about making a bed. She's like, if
Speaker 1: you're not going to do it right, just don't even
Speaker 1: do it. And I was like, okay, and I always
Speaker 1: and she taught me to do hospital corners and I
Speaker 1: always do them.
Speaker 3: What does that even mean?
Speaker 1: Basically, you take the sheet, you go underneath the back,
Speaker 1: like the very bottom of the mattress, tuck it under.
Speaker 1: Then you pull up the little corner and then tuck
Speaker 1: it in so that it makes a little It's like,
Speaker 1: if you don't do it, your sheets are just kind
Speaker 1: of hanging like jagged at the point where you tuck
Speaker 1: it under the very end. So this like tucks it
Speaker 1: in really neat and makes it like a nice corner.
Speaker 3: That's all.
Speaker 1: And I've tried to teach Jared how to do it
Speaker 1: about seventy five times and it's not sticking.
Speaker 3: Can't you like cannot do it? He's like, how do
Speaker 3: you do that?
Speaker 5: Again?
Speaker 1: I'm like, it's two things, it's two steps. You just
Speaker 1: cannot figure it out. Weaponized incompetence anyway, So then we.
Speaker 2: Find newspaper clippings of Celia and Jennifer. The pro officer
Speaker 2: finally gets there and he's just like Crosstown traffics a
Speaker 2: bitch and it is. So then they go to visit
Speaker 2: his mother since he's not at home or at work,
Speaker 2: and the mom's like, ugh you and he's like, yep,
Speaker 2: miss Barry, it's me and he just loves being a
Speaker 2: heel and she's not helping them, so leave her the
Speaker 2: fuck alone. She's convinced he was railroaded. He is innocent.
Speaker 2: The police still eighteen years from him. She's coughing and
Speaker 2: like she's trying a garden and she can't now because
Speaker 2: she's self flustered and she wants to be left alone.
Speaker 2: She grabs an oxygen tank and like takes some breaths.
Speaker 2: Hawkins says, if we find you hiding him again, we're
Speaker 2: going to charge you with accessory after the fact, and
Speaker 2: she says, you don't scare me, go to hell and
Speaker 2: slams the door. Hawkins suggests, like, hey, let's go out
Speaker 2: to eat. Roger used to always like eat at this place.
Speaker 3: Let's go.
Speaker 2: So they head to Charlie's Bar and grill and the
Speaker 2: bartenders and a bunch of Svus Royalty. He was in
Speaker 2: the episode Countdown Deception and Savior, So pretty exciting. Oh
Speaker 2: the Misha Martin yeah, yes, yes, yes, Ray Andacelli, we
Speaker 2: salute you and your work for SVU. So he knows Roger.
Speaker 2: He's like, yeah, he gets a cheeseburger and a root beer.
Speaker 2: And he started coming here like a few months ago.
Speaker 2: And he's also very specific and can only sit at
Speaker 2: one table and he'll even wait hours for it to
Speaker 2: open up, and so we like hold it for him,
Speaker 2: just like with a little sign. Why not, it doesn't
Speaker 2: cost me any trouble. So the boys get burgers and
Speaker 2: then Hawkins gets a double bourbon neat and uh, the
Speaker 2: most stabler order bottle beer domestic.
Speaker 3: I'm surprised he's even having a drink.
Speaker 1: They've been offered a drink many many times on the
Speaker 1: job before and they always are like, no, aer a
Speaker 1: beer is barely anything, I guess yeah, And I think
Speaker 1: he's just like had enough of dealing with this guy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but a double bourbon in the middle of the weekday,
Speaker 1: that's tough.
Speaker 3: It's kind of a wild move.
Speaker 2: It also like I'm a jack on the rocks drinker
Speaker 2: and like not with a burger, not for lunch, like
Speaker 2: not with dinner, Like that's not that's a like drink
Speaker 2: at a bar. That's not a dinner drink, right, But
Speaker 2: he obviously has a problem. So they go back and
Speaker 2: forth with some attitude. Then angry cop brings up the
Speaker 2: grandfather rape case and they bond, and you know, he
Speaker 2: tries to give stage advice, but Sadler's just way too haunted.
Speaker 2: And so then Stabler is just so tired of losing.
Speaker 2: And Roger does a toast and he says, all that's
Speaker 2: required for evil to triumph is for good men to
Speaker 2: do nothing. Here's to a few good men. Stabler's phone rings,
Speaker 2: it's munch. Oh no, he has news. So then the
Speaker 2: flower shop boss confirms that this dude did make a
Speaker 2: delivery to Jennifer's apartment like the week before she was murdered,
Speaker 2: and this is how he found his victims before he
Speaker 2: was arrested too, like pre arrests. And so the burgers
Speaker 2: come and they're like, wait, where is he? Like here's
Speaker 2: saying he's always here, same time, same table, and he goes, oh, well,
Speaker 2: sometimes he runs late. He gets caught up looking at
Speaker 2: the boats on Peer forty one. So the men only
Speaker 2: take one bite of the burger and they run without paying,
Speaker 2: and the bartender's annoyed.
Speaker 3: He's like wait, who's gonna pay for this?
Speaker 2: And so they see his ass at the pier and
Speaker 2: they separate and slowly walk towards him on either side
Speaker 2: of the boardwalk. He's scared and kind of slow, and
Speaker 2: so he has I rope around his neck and he
Speaker 2: doesn't like, you know, he doesn't want to go back
Speaker 2: to jail, and he tries to jump, but Stabler catches
Speaker 2: him and he's like they're fighting. It's a lot of fighting.
Speaker 2: The dude punches him and Stabler cuffs him. He's screaming,
Speaker 2: you know no and crying and we're in cement room
Speaker 2: bars and Roger does not want to talk to John
Speaker 2: Hawkins one bit. And he goes the night before last,
Speaker 2: where were you? And he's like, I was, you know,
Speaker 2: with my mom on my birthday. I ate cake and
Speaker 2: I went home. I was in bed by ten. He
Speaker 2: says he doesn't know who Celia is, but he does
Speaker 2: admit to delivering flowers to lots of nice ladies. Hawkins
Speaker 2: is like, yeah, and then you killed this one and
Speaker 2: he's like, no, I did not. I just don't see
Speaker 2: him getting away with the crimes. Like I'm looking at
Speaker 2: this man and I just don't see it. So, so
Speaker 2: why did he have the newspaper clippings And he's like, well,
Speaker 2: my mom gave them to me. My mom told me
Speaker 2: to be careful because you were going to try to
Speaker 2: put me back in jail. And Sailor goes, hey, you're
Speaker 2: not going to go back to jail if you didn't
Speaker 2: do it, and he goes, Nope, you're gonna lie. That's
Speaker 2: like he lied last time, and Hawkins goes, oh, here
Speaker 2: we go. Rogers is like, you know, Hawkins said if
Speaker 2: I signed the papers, I could go home.
Speaker 3: And Hawkins is.
Speaker 2: Screaming, and Roger gets fed up and flips the table
Speaker 2: and Hawkins and Stabler like against the wall.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: Hawkins like puts him against the wall starts slapping him
Speaker 2: in the face, and this guy starts crying for his mom,
Speaker 2: and he goes, your mama can't help you now, boy,
Speaker 2: and then he threatens the needle in his arm, and
Speaker 2: at this point, Roger was crying so hard and he
Speaker 2: slides down the wall to the ground and goes, I
Speaker 2: want my mom. Stabler's like staring at him like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, what about Like this is so then Benson's
Speaker 2: telling Hawkins, we gotta cut him loose. We have nothing
Speaker 2: on him, and you know John has pissed. Of course,
Speaker 2: so then Benson's stablor Cragan in Cabot. They're like all
Speaker 2: together around Craigan's desk and it's like a like a
Speaker 2: Sistine chapel painting, you know, and trigger warning.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna say a word, Gregan says.
Speaker 2: But Craigan like leans in and goes the guy is
Speaker 2: borderline retarded. And then Roger's like, oh, no, he's smarter
Speaker 2: than you think, and it's like, no, he's not, Like
Speaker 2: what are you talking about. There's no fucking way this
Speaker 2: guy committed this crime like with with no like leaving
Speaker 2: no evidence and the incision marks and like.
Speaker 1: The unless he's like unless he's pulling like an Edward
Speaker 1: Norton primal fear. This man does not know how to
Speaker 1: commit crimes. Wait, did you see that for movie Snake?
Speaker 2: I got top one percent of players for the Edward
Speaker 2: Norton game. Ooh congratulations, that's a time to shine. I
Speaker 2: mean I was just yeah, so rob, so this guy's like,
Speaker 2: let me just go at him alone. I'll get him,
Speaker 2: don't you worry, And they're like no. His mom reached
Speaker 2: out to legal aid and he's lawyered up. I think
Speaker 2: they are. They're going to cancel legal aids soon. So
Speaker 2: so they're like, you need to back up, like he
Speaker 2: has a lawyer, and he runs out of the squad.
Speaker 2: He's like so upset. Stammler's like, wait, but this is
Speaker 2: like fucked up. The signature was never released. How can
Speaker 2: this be a copycat or someone and they're and then
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, Roger was never the fucking guy. The
Speaker 2: SOHO strangler has been around this whole time, and now
Speaker 2: he gets to come back because this guy's out of jail,
Speaker 2: like duh, And so we got to get to the
Speaker 2: file room to get information on the old case so
Speaker 2: we can like get to work. Benson's like, uugh. He
Speaker 2: will never accept that he did something wrong, especially if
Speaker 2: a woman tells him. And Saber goes, yeah, he's old school,
Speaker 2: and Benson goes, no, I think he's a drunk. So
Speaker 2: then she was calling other cops to get gossip and
Speaker 2: that nobody wants to ride with him.
Speaker 3: Everyone hates him.
Speaker 2: And then guess what when they get to the files,
Speaker 2: they've already been checked out by Hawkins.
Speaker 3: Holy shit.
Speaker 2: He checks everything out to cover his ass because he
Speaker 2: knows he puts a man in jail that did not
Speaker 2: commit the crime. So Stabler goes to his house and
Speaker 2: the tape of the confession is playing. So this man
Speaker 2: is not doing well. Roger is sitting listening to the confession.
Speaker 2: Boxes and papers and everywhere, empty bottles of booze, framed
Speaker 2: photos of a family who probably doesn't speak to him anymore.
Speaker 3: So he admits he was wrong.
Speaker 2: Stadler says, don't worry, We're gonna get this guy, and
Speaker 2: Hawkins goes up to get another bottle of booze. So
Speaker 2: he starts like giving the backstory. He goes at the
Speaker 2: time of the case. You know, he'd only had his
Speaker 2: shields for one year, but he wanted to show off
Speaker 2: and show everyone what a kick ass cop he could be.
Speaker 2: And he saw the flower delivery guy and he searched
Speaker 2: the truck and he found out like porno and creepy shit.
Speaker 3: He got him to confess. He just wanted it so bad.
Speaker 2: He grilled him over and over and over again to
Speaker 2: the point where he convinced him that he fucking did
Speaker 2: it and fed him every single detail, and then he
Speaker 2: lied and said, if he signed this, you can go
Speaker 2: home to your mom. And then he goes the poor
Speaker 2: dumb son of a bitch believed me.
Speaker 1: It reminds me so much of Brendan Dacy, like what
Speaker 1: happened in making a murderer? Like they just brought in
Speaker 1: this like kid, and they kept him there for so long,
Speaker 1: and they were just like if you go home, if
Speaker 1: you go home, you can go home if you signed
Speaker 1: this shit, Like it's so crazy.
Speaker 3: I hate that. I like, I ough, yeah, like solve
Speaker 3: the crime. Okay.
Speaker 2: So Sailor's like, you have a chance to make things right.
Speaker 2: He goes, I took eighteen years from an innocent man.
Speaker 1: It's just occurring to him now, like it's it's just
Speaker 1: occurring to him that maybe this got like that he
Speaker 1: did this wrong thing, Like it's fine to be like, oh,
Speaker 1: I was a young dumb ass. I was looking for
Speaker 1: valor when I was younger, and now I'm it's eighteen
Speaker 1: years later and I've never gone back to be like, oh,
Speaker 1: by the way, I think I might have fucked up
Speaker 1: this case.
Speaker 2: Like it's so I don't know, know, I think that's
Speaker 2: why he's a boozhound. Yeah he's drinking away the doubt
Speaker 2: the shit. Yeah, yeah, Sabler gives him a speech. John
Speaker 2: looks motivated but drunk. So they're gonna go through the
Speaker 2: papers and they're just gonna do old fashioned police work.
Speaker 2: Sabler asks Arthur Blessard, and Hawkins goes, oh, yeah, one
Speaker 2: of the neighbors that I did Roger, and Sailor goes, well,
Speaker 2: that name was an an Chilsholm's date book three weeks
Speaker 2: before she was murdered, so she as an appointment with
Speaker 2: a taxman named ab Holy shit. And then back in
Speaker 2: the day, Hawkins used to sketch faces to keep like
Speaker 2: all the interviews straight in his head. So he goes
Speaker 2: through the old notebook and finds it and says, this
Speaker 2: dude was blind as a bat, holy shit, and like
Speaker 2: he had these thick glasses in the drawing, and they're
Speaker 2: like that could be like the contact from Celia's floor
Speaker 2: vision problems. To me, the contact thing is a stretch,
Speaker 2: like I don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Also, it feels like this is like a place where
Speaker 1: they also would have figured out like who's left handed,
Speaker 1: but they just caught it out or something, and that's
Speaker 1: why it's like at the beginning, you know.
Speaker 2: And so we're back at the office and since Roger
Speaker 2: was in prison. Like twelve more crimes in five different
Speaker 2: cities did happen, so he really fucked up, and twelve
Speaker 2: women are dead because he was like wanting to do
Speaker 2: selfish police work and be cool. So that's really And
Speaker 2: like the cities of all the places where the crimes
Speaker 2: occurred match up with Arthur Blessard's employment history, so they
Speaker 2: could place him at seven of those murders. Chicago's where
Speaker 2: he started cutting out the bite marks. Atlanta is where
Speaker 2: he started slitting throats. Every case matches his signature, and
Speaker 2: then Hawkins comes in and goes and now he works
Speaker 2: at twenty six Federal Plaza. He's in New York and
Speaker 2: he works for the IRS. So they go over to
Speaker 2: the RS and so Celia and Jennifer Files are in
Speaker 2: his office. He was using the IRS as a dating
Speaker 2: service and in his date book there's a time like
Speaker 2: it says a woman's name, five PM and their meeting
Speaker 2: and it's four forty five. They have to go now,
Speaker 2: so they rush and they hear a glass shattering. Inside
Speaker 2: they find this loser. They throw him up against the
Speaker 2: wall and they arrest his ass. Benson is talking to Beverly,
Speaker 2: the woman who is about to be murdered.
Speaker 3: We can presume he.
Speaker 2: Contacted her about irregularities on her tax return. She went
Speaker 2: to the office. He was really nice and they worked
Speaker 2: on her taxes. Is that a thing that the IRL does? No,
Speaker 2: you cannot get through to the IRS.
Speaker 1: And I don't think the IRS is ever trying to
Speaker 1: help you, Like, I don't think the IRS is ever Like, hey,
Speaker 1: what happens if you have irregularities on your taxes? Is
Speaker 1: they just like fine you and fuck you? You know,
Speaker 1: like they're not like, come on in, let's work this out.
Speaker 3: Like no. But so then she goes, this is even stranger.
Speaker 2: She goes, I had moved from Ithaca and I couldn't
Speaker 2: fly my accountant out Like what, yeah, I guess people
Speaker 2: are were there not even fax machines at this point?
Speaker 2: What are we I know about fax machines in a phone?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I couldn't afford to fly my accountant down
Speaker 2: from Ithaca.
Speaker 3: What. I just think that's season three to even be.
Speaker 1: To be an option of I'm flying my accountant in
Speaker 1: is crazy?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So you offer to take her to lunch. So
Speaker 2: then while she's at work, he gets a call. She
Speaker 2: gets a call from him saying that he accidentally double
Speaker 2: booked and wanted to make it up to her by
Speaker 2: taking her to dinner, and he then but it cuts back,
Speaker 2: so now it cuts to cement room bars. So now
Speaker 2: we're going from woodroom blinds with her to cement room
Speaker 2: bars with him. And he's like, oh, dinner was her
Speaker 2: idea and she goes, well, things started getting weird, lots
Speaker 2: of questions about my personal life. And tonight he showed
Speaker 2: up at my apartment with flowers and she didn't want
Speaker 2: to let him in, but thought that she had to,
Speaker 2: you know, let him down gently for tax reasons, so
Speaker 2: he didn't fuck her in the audit. So now we
Speaker 2: have a chat session in the center room. Finn says
Speaker 2: that they searched his apartment and found a contact case
Speaker 2: with a single contact, so he hasn't gotten new contacts.
Speaker 2: Like all of these don't make sense, like or like what,
Speaker 2: So now he's just been blind this whole time. So
Speaker 2: then he also has a flower receipt to the store.
Speaker 2: He was setting up Roger with those flowers, and he
Speaker 2: did lawyer up, so they can't like talk to him
Speaker 2: right now, but you know, we have to find out
Speaker 2: how we can keep him. We have to figure out
Speaker 2: how to make a case so he does not go home.
Speaker 2: So instead of the new murders, how about we relook
Speaker 2: at the old stuff and see, like when he was
Speaker 2: less experienced, if he fucked up and find some old
Speaker 2: crime evidence. So we find some DNA, but it's a
Speaker 2: mix of two DNA. Oh this is so this is
Speaker 2: honestly the craziest episode. It's like all of these tropes
Speaker 2: all together. They don't make sense, Like nothing makes sense.
Speaker 2: So basically they find DNA, but it's a mix of
Speaker 2: two DNAs. So they have to separate the DNA with
Speaker 2: the victim and then like the suspect. So we need
Speaker 2: to but she's been buried for eighteen years, so we're
Speaker 2: gonna dig her up.
Speaker 3: We're gonna digger up.
Speaker 2: We're not gonna get an old hair brush or clothes
Speaker 2: or like see if the parents have something, we're gonna
Speaker 2: go straight to. Let's dig her up so we can
Speaker 2: separate these DNAs. So they cut to two people that
Speaker 2: look like American Gothic. They say no, They're like, let
Speaker 2: Marsha rest in peace. But they try to convince her,
Speaker 2: and Hawkins is like, we know how difficult this is
Speaker 2: for you, and she says, no, you don't and that
Speaker 2: is true, like fuck you, Hawkins, and then you know,
Speaker 2: they plead with her, and they finally do convince the parents.
Speaker 2: So we see this casket getting pulled up from the ground.
Speaker 2: They got what they needed, they separate the DNA matches.
Speaker 2: So then they go to arrest him. They hear noises inside.
Speaker 2: They break down the door like all guns open, they
Speaker 2: spin around, windows open. He's climbing up on the fire escape,
Speaker 2: so Hawkins climbs up and then Stabler follows as well.
Speaker 2: It's strange to climb up and not down for a
Speaker 2: guilty man, but okay, So now we're on the roof
Speaker 2: and there's a chase. Stabler finally finds them. Arthur is
Speaker 2: hanging off the roof. John Hawkins is standing over him,
Speaker 2: beauty in the Beast style, and he's gripping and like begging,
Speaker 2: and Hawkins is stepping on his hands and Sailor's like,
Speaker 2: don't do it, and the man is screaming. Hawkins is
Speaker 2: thinking Stabler's watching. They pull his ass up together and
Speaker 2: Hawkins is like, you're gonna let an old drunk man
Speaker 2: do the salon?
Speaker 3: Or are you're gonna help me?
Speaker 2: So then they pull his ass up together, they put
Speaker 2: the hardware on his ass, and then yeah, they read
Speaker 2: him his rights. Dick wolf Baby. Honestly, like such an
Speaker 2: interesting story. I wish this was like a season seven
Speaker 2: episode because there's too many crazy things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, sometimes there's.
Speaker 2: Digging, the body, the left hand thing, the contact, like,
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's just it's a lot of goofiness.
Speaker 3: But such a good story. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: And you know, sadly based on a couple of real things,
Speaker 1: which we will get into now. This is based on
Speaker 1: a couple cases. So the first one I'm going to
Speaker 1: talk about is the Albert de Salvo case, who was
Speaker 1: also known as the Boston Strangler.
Speaker 3: So in Boston this is like famous.
Speaker 1: No, I there's other stranglers, the Hillside Strangler, there's like
Speaker 1: other ones.
Speaker 3: So I don't know how famous this.
Speaker 1: One is because it's from like the sixties. And yeah,
Speaker 1: it's from the sixties, so I don't know. But I
Speaker 1: would say, like the majority of the big ones we've
Speaker 1: heard over like seventies, eighties, but this one's like earlier,
Speaker 1: so I don't know. But inn eighteen month period in
Speaker 1: Boston between nineteen sixty two and nineteen sixty four, so
Speaker 1: eighteen months, like a very short period of thirteen single
Speaker 1: women are found murdered strangemen also thirteen in an eighteen
Speaker 1: month period, which is a lot Strangely, the victims range
Speaker 1: in age from like nineteen to eighty five, like they're
Speaker 1: from different socio economic backgrounds, different races, like which is
Speaker 1: you know, weird, Like most of these guys have like
Speaker 1: a type or like an mo or whatever. So most
Speaker 1: of the victims were sexually assaulted and strangled in their apartments,
Speaker 1: though the eldest victim did die of a heart attack.
Speaker 1: At two were fatally stabbed. One was also horribly beaten.
Speaker 1: I mean, they're obviously getting a lot of the details
Speaker 1: for the episode from this. The last victim was also
Speaker 1: the youngest, nineteen year old Mary Sullivan, found murdered in
Speaker 1: her apartment on Charles Street in Beacon Hill, where you
Speaker 1: and I have been together at my friend's mother's place
Speaker 1: is three blocks from where this happened. There was no
Speaker 1: sign of force entry at any of the crime scenes,
Speaker 1: meaning the victims either knew their killer or he was
Speaker 1: perhaps like a service person coming to repair something and
Speaker 1: authorities were looking for a single killer.
Speaker 3: They did not think he worked with anybody.
Speaker 1: Even though this string of murders was amply covered in
Speaker 1: the media, the cops were not close to catching him,
Speaker 1: like they had no idea who this was. Meanwhile, in
Speaker 1: late nineteen sixty four, the Boston police were trying to
Speaker 1: solve a bunch of rapes that had been committed by
Speaker 1: a purp that they called the Measuring Man, which, if
Speaker 1: you remember the episode or just look like one, was
Speaker 1: what they nicknamed this guy who would pretend that he
Speaker 1: was a modeling scout to lure women and then he
Speaker 1: would sexually assault them. But this purp was called the
Speaker 1: measuring Man or the green Man. That's who this rapist
Speaker 1: was that they're looking for. Around the same time in Boston,
Speaker 1: on October twenty seventh, a stranger entered a young woman's
Speaker 1: home in East Cambridge posing as a detective, tied her
Speaker 1: to the bed, sexually assaulted her, and then left after
Speaker 1: undoing her restraints and apologizing. The woman's description led police
Speaker 1: to identify the assailant as Albert de Salvo. Once his
Speaker 1: photo was published, a lot of other women came forward
Speaker 1: to id him as their rapist, and while he was
Speaker 1: being held in jail, for these rapes. He confessed to
Speaker 1: another inmate named George Nasser that he was the Boston Strangler.
Speaker 3: He isn't that the oh that's Larry Nasser. That's Larry Nasser.
Speaker 3: But I did think of that.
Speaker 1: He told this inmate allegedly that he was the Boston
Speaker 1: Strangler and told him all these grizzly details. Nasar tells
Speaker 1: his lawyer, who is da Da da Eth Lee Bailey,
Speaker 1: And you might recognize him as a member of O. J.
Speaker 1: Simpson's team of lawyers. He represented Patty Hurst like he was.
Speaker 1: He's like a big defense lawyer of our time. He
Speaker 1: just passed away like a few years ago, I think,
Speaker 1: and he eventually became Dessalvo's lawyer. And the wild thing
Speaker 1: is DeSalvo was never tried for any of the murders.
Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty seven, he was sentenced to life in
Speaker 1: prison for the rapes as well as robbery charges, and
Speaker 1: he was in when he was I guess in prison,
Speaker 1: he recanted his confession of the Boston Strangler deaths, and
Speaker 1: six years later, in nineteen seventy three, he was stabbed
Speaker 1: to death in his cell, allegedly by Robert Wilson, who
Speaker 1: was connected to the winter Hill Gang.
Speaker 3: I don't know much about them, but and.
Speaker 1: Then the Robert Wilson was tried for the murder and
Speaker 1: the trial ended in a hung jury. So no one
Speaker 1: pays for Disalvo's death. But also there have been a
Speaker 1: lot of what's kind of wild is that there have
Speaker 1: been a lot of theories that these crimes were committed
Speaker 1: by more than one person because the mos were different
Speaker 1: and like the you know, the victims were all different
Speaker 1: ages and like backgrounds and stuff. Also, Dissalvo apparently got
Speaker 1: details wrong about the crimes. For example, he didn't strangle
Speaker 1: Sullivan with his bare hands, as he claimed, she was
Speaker 1: strangled by a ligature, so forensic pathologists Mike Golbaden our
Speaker 1: favorite also said that DeSalvo incorrectly stated the time of
Speaker 1: the victim's death, and he got that wrong with a
Speaker 1: few other murders as well. So there are some theories
Speaker 1: that Nasser was the strangler and that he gave Albert
Speaker 1: enough details for him to confess. Nasser said later, I
Speaker 1: guess told some news outlet. There's an interview with him
Speaker 1: from jail where he's like, oh, yeah, I broker the
Speaker 1: whole thing. I wanted Albert to confess and for flee
Speaker 1: Bailey to get him a book deal. Then we would
Speaker 1: all make a lot of money, and Albert went along
Speaker 1: with it. So there are also theories that he's behind
Speaker 1: Albert's jailhouse murder, so who knows. But in twenty thirteen,
Speaker 1: after all of this conjecture, Albert DeSalvo was definitively linked
Speaker 1: to one of the Boston Strangler murders, the murder of
Speaker 1: Mary Sullivan, so he definitely killed Mary. It's unclear whether
Speaker 1: he was responsible for all of these murders. In order
Speaker 1: to get his conviction, much like the episode, they had
Speaker 1: to exhume Mary's body for DNA testing, and that took
Speaker 1: place in October of two thousand when the case was reopened.
Speaker 1: They exhumed Albert DeSalvo's body the following year, so two
Speaker 1: thousand and one, and then for some reason, not until
Speaker 1: twenty thirteen did they definitively link to.
Speaker 3: Salvo to Sullivan.
Speaker 1: So it's like so funny in SVU when we get
Speaker 1: these DNA results back in ten minutes, and in other
Speaker 1: crimes it takes truly twelve years to even connect a
Speaker 1: victim and a murderer. So that's one case, the Boston
Speaker 1: strangler case. Who's to say what actually happened with that one?
Speaker 1: This next one is crazy in so let me take
Speaker 1: you back to Fort Lauderdale nineteen seventy nine. A string
Speaker 1: of murders of young women rocked the community. But I'm
Speaker 1: going to start out and tell you it's a black community.
Speaker 1: All the victims are black, and so this doesn't have
Speaker 1: nearly as much media coverage as you would expect it
Speaker 1: would have had. July ninth, they find the body of
Speaker 1: Ernesty German twenty three near high school. July twenty seventh,
Speaker 1: Sonya Marion thirteen found in the exact same area. August seventh,
Speaker 1: Terry Gene Cummings twenty one, also you're the high school.
Speaker 1: August twenty fourth, Kathy Moore twenty four, was found a
Speaker 1: few blocks from the high school. September second, Wanda Virga
Speaker 1: is raped and murdered in Miami. I didn't know this
Speaker 1: until I just went there a year or so ago,
Speaker 1: But Miami and Fort Lauderdale are right there next to
Speaker 1: each other, so the Miami and Fort Lauderdale crimes are close.
Speaker 1: September fifth, Jerry Frank Townsend twenty seven is arrested for
Speaker 1: sexual assault by police in Miami. He is intellectually disabled,
Speaker 1: with the mental capacity of an eight year old, they say,
Speaker 1: And police say that while he's being questioned in this
Speaker 1: sexual assault, he confessed to Wanda Virgo's murder. Soon the
Speaker 1: police tacked on charges for her and the other four
Speaker 1: murders and rapes that I just mentioned, and then they
Speaker 1: claimed Townshend had confessed and had led them to the
Speaker 1: crime scenes. Days after mister Townshend confessed, the police discovered,
Speaker 1: much like in this episode, that he had an alibi
Speaker 1: for Sonya Marian's murder. He had punched into work that
Speaker 1: morning at his job, like at an auto mechanic, The
Speaker 1: police said. Townsend said he'd killed her the night before,
Speaker 1: but her mother's like, no, she was with me the
Speaker 1: night before, she left for school the next morning and
Speaker 1: that's the last time I saw her, So he's getting
Speaker 1: details incorrect. Within a few weeks of his arrest, Townsend
Speaker 1: had admitted to the murders of thirteen women, including in
Speaker 1: Tampa and California, which he said he committed when working
Speaker 1: for a traveling carnival in nineteen seventy six. In nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy seven, I don't know about any of these California victims,
Speaker 1: like they're not in any of the research that I found.
Speaker 1: But four of the other victims were from nineteen seventy
Speaker 1: three Thelma jen Bell, Naomi Gamble, who was only fifteen,
Speaker 1: and Barbara Ann Brown, all in Fort Lauderdale, and then
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy seven Dorothy Gibson, seventeen in Miami. Despite
Speaker 1: a psychiatric evaluation that put his IQ between fifty five
Speaker 1: and sixty eight, which is below the level of intellectual disability,
Speaker 1: he was declared competent to stand trial because America is
Speaker 1: fucking killing it. He went to trial for three of
Speaker 1: the rape murders, and the case was heavily relying on
Speaker 1: his confessions. The defense argued that the confessions were not
Speaker 1: real and that Townshend just wanted to tell them what
Speaker 1: they wanted to hear, much like this guy in the
Speaker 1: episode July thirtieth of nineteen eighty. He is convicted for
Speaker 1: the murders of Naomi Gamble and Barbara am Brown, but
Speaker 1: acquitted for the murder of Thelma Gene Bell. He sentenced
Speaker 1: to life in prison, with the possibility of parole after
Speaker 1: twenty five years. I also don't understand the parole after
Speaker 1: like violent rapes and murders. I don't understand how parole
Speaker 1: is a possibility. But it's the eighties. In eighty two,
Speaker 1: he pled guilty to murder in the deaths of Dorothy
Speaker 1: Gibson and Wanda Virga because this is now separate trial
Speaker 1: because it's Miami. He also pled no contests to the
Speaker 1: murders of Terry Gen Cummings and Kathy Moore got life again.
Speaker 1: They dropped the charges in the murders of Ernestine German
Speaker 1: and Sonia Marion. And he also pled guilty to that
Speaker 1: very first rape that brought him that the cops brought
Speaker 1: him in for in.
Speaker 3: Nineteen seventy nine.
Speaker 1: So sixteen years later, in nineteen ninety eight, the family
Speaker 1: of Sonia Marion wants to reopen the case. She did
Speaker 1: not get justice because you know, they dropped the charges
Speaker 1: two years later in two in At this point, Townshend
Speaker 1: has been in jail for twenty years at least. The
Speaker 1: Innocence Project requests a DNA that the DNA in the
Speaker 1: case be tested, and huge shock, it does not match Townsend.
Speaker 1: It matches a guy named Eddie Lee Moseley. So they
Speaker 1: obviously tested the DNA from other cases. He did not
Speaker 1: match the DNA in the Terry Jen Cummings case or
Speaker 1: Naomi Gamble, both were connected to Eddie Lee Moseley. There
Speaker 1: was not enough DNA or no DNA to test in
Speaker 1: the cases of Thelmagen Bell Barbara and Brown Kathy Moore
Speaker 1: in Ernestine, German And eventually, though, all of his convictions
Speaker 1: were vacated and dismissed, and he was released from prison
Speaker 1: at the age of forty nine in two thousand and
Speaker 1: one June sixteenth of two thousand and one, after almost
Speaker 1: twenty two years in prison. Because he was just an
Speaker 1: intellectually disabled man who the cops said, you did all
Speaker 1: this stuff, and he's like, I did all this stuff,
Speaker 1: and he just but he did sue the city of
Speaker 1: Miami and he settled for four point two million dollars, so.
Speaker 3: A tiny silver lining.
Speaker 1: And if that is not fucked up enough for you,
Speaker 1: Townsend was not the only guy who took the fall
Speaker 1: for Eddie Lee Moseley's crimes. Another man named Franklee Smith
Speaker 1: served fifteen years on death row for the murder and
Speaker 1: sexual assault of an eight year old girl in Fort
Speaker 1: Lauderdale in April of nineteen eighty five. Also, this man
Speaker 1: was intellectually disabled. The girl's mother wrongfully identified him based
Speaker 1: solely on photos she'd been shown. There was no other
Speaker 1: evidence linking him to this crime, but he was found
Speaker 1: guilty and sentenced to death in nineteen eighty six. He
Speaker 1: had always claimed he was innocent, and then sadly he
Speaker 1: died of cancer on death row in two thousand and eleven.
Speaker 1: Months later, DNA exonerated him and pointed to you got it,
Speaker 1: Eddie Lee Moseley. So I'd love to hear more information
Speaker 1: about how the death penalty is good because I'm not
Speaker 1: seeing it.
Speaker 3: So who is Eddie Lee Moseley.
Speaker 1: Eddie Lee Moseley is this absolute monster of the Fort
Speaker 1: Lauderdale community. He's thought to have raped as many as
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty women and girls. He was also
Speaker 1: suspected of murdering two young girls in the early seventies,
Speaker 1: but there wasn't an evidence. He was brought in after
Speaker 1: more than forty women identified him as their attacker. After
Speaker 1: one woman was able to get a description of him,
Speaker 1: and she identified him then from photos, and then after
Speaker 1: all the women saw the photo, forty women were like,
Speaker 1: that's the guy who attacked me. His psychiatric evaluation deemed
Speaker 1: him as quote unquote insane. That's what's written everywhere I
Speaker 1: look him up. I'm sure that's not like a great term,
Speaker 1: but that's what they were saying. So he was committed
Speaker 1: to a state hospital where he spent five years, and
Speaker 1: while he was away, no similar crimes were were reported
Speaker 1: in that area.
Speaker 3: But good news, they cured.
Speaker 1: Him and he was deemed no longer a danger to society,
Speaker 1: and he's released in nineteen seventy nine. He goes to
Speaker 1: live with his parents, and over the next seven months,
Speaker 1: seven young girls are raped and murdered, all near his parents' house.
Speaker 1: The following year, he's worried that the cops are on
Speaker 1: too him. I don't understand after two of these murders,
Speaker 1: how they're not finding the sky.
Speaker 3: But again, it is the late seventies.
Speaker 1: I guess there's not as much CCTV or DNA and
Speaker 1: all kinds of ways that we catch people now. But
Speaker 1: the following year he moves to Lakeland, Florida. There he
Speaker 1: is very quickly questioned about the disappearance of two young girls,
Speaker 1: but he's let go because they never found the bodies.
Speaker 1: He goes back to Fort Lauderdale. He gets arrested for
Speaker 1: an attempted rape and he's found guilty and sentence to
Speaker 1: fifteen years. While in prison, they do find the bones
Speaker 1: of these two missing girls. It does not say whether
Speaker 1: they actually link them to him, but I'm going to
Speaker 1: say probably.
Speaker 3: He was also a terror in prison.
Speaker 1: He attacked other inmates physically and sexually, threatened to burn
Speaker 1: the place down, like just the usual, like just you know,
Speaker 1: wild prison character. But his family hired a lawyer and
Speaker 1: they got his conviction overturned because his lawyer never got
Speaker 1: him a psych exam, which is like, what's going on.
Speaker 1: That's incompetence, Like why would you not have your client
Speaker 1: examined when he's got a history, which he does, by
Speaker 1: the way, he has a history of mental instability and
Speaker 1: into intellectual disability, Like you I don't understan, why you
Speaker 1: wouldnt give an exam? Feels very amateur. He gets a
Speaker 1: new trial and there the judge gives him a shorter sentence,
Speaker 1: and since he'd already done three years, they let him
Speaker 1: out on parole. The system works. Now it's nineteen eighty
Speaker 1: four and Mosley's the suspect in the murders of Geraldine Barfield,
Speaker 1: age thirty six, and Emma Cook, age fifty four, both
Speaker 1: raped and then suffocated. The same year, he's arrested for
Speaker 1: raping a twenty two year old and he pleads not
Speaker 1: guilty at trial, claiming that the sex was consensual, and
Speaker 1: his lawyers got the jury to believe that even though
Speaker 1: this man has a long, long rap sheet. This is
Speaker 1: how much women are not believed, especially in the fucking
Speaker 1: early eighties. He was acquitted, and he's once again let
Speaker 1: out into the world. And I do wonder if this
Speaker 1: guy was accused of killing old white men, if perhaps
Speaker 1: they would not have been so quick to let him go.
Speaker 1: But because he's killing mostly black women and girls, it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. After he commits two more murders, I've honestly
Speaker 1: lost track of how many he did and how many
Speaker 1: he was suspected of at this point, but I want
Speaker 1: to assume that he did all the ones he was
Speaker 1: accused of. The local authorities finally call the FBI, after
Speaker 1: like a decade of this man terrorizing the area. They're like,
Speaker 1: let's bring in the experts now. So the FBI built
Speaker 1: like does up a profile, and obviously it fits Eddie
Speaker 1: Lee Moseley, Like you know, they figure it's like it's
Speaker 1: this guy. In eighty seven, he's once again the suspect
Speaker 1: and rape and of a rape and murder by strangulation
Speaker 1: of central love age twenty four and months later he
Speaker 1: but again they keep going he's a suspect, But then
Speaker 1: they never say whether he gets brought in for all this.
Speaker 1: He's getting questioned, but I think maybe there's simply he's
Speaker 1: not leaving DNA, or he's just like not leaving yor
Speaker 1: just not figuring it out. Months later, he is arrested
Speaker 1: for theft, and by then they had finally matched his
Speaker 1: blood type to seamen that they had found on murder victims,
Speaker 1: which was eventually a match. So they bring Moseley in.
Speaker 1: They confront him about his involvement in all these crimes
Speaker 1: after almost two decades at this point, and he tries
Speaker 1: to defend himself. He's making up alibis, like he's fucking
Speaker 1: up details, he's fucking up dates like they it's him.
Speaker 1: Eventually he confesses to the murders of Teresa Giles and
Speaker 1: Emma Cook. He stood trial in nineteen eighty seven. Numerous
Speaker 1: Fort Lauderdale's sex workers testified that he was aggressive towards them,
Speaker 1: that he would like attack women with like with impunity,
Speaker 1: like in big crowds, like in front of other people.
Speaker 3: He was not scared to do it.
Speaker 1: And much like Townsend, the man who served at who
Speaker 1: he's like getting with every Yeah, he's getting away with it.
Speaker 1: But much like Townsend and Smith, the two men who
Speaker 1: you know took the fall for his crimes, he had
Speaker 1: an IQ found to be fifty one, which is below
Speaker 1: the average intelligence rate, and therefore he was deemed not
Speaker 1: competent to stand trial. I have no idea why Smith
Speaker 1: was not afforded that same or Townshend were afforded that
Speaker 1: same thing. But this guy seemed maybe has better lawyers
Speaker 1: because he was deemed not competent to stand trial. And
Speaker 1: so in October of eighty seven he sent to a
Speaker 1: Florida State hospital and he's there for a long time.
Speaker 1: Finally in two thousand, gets tested and he's connected with
Speaker 1: a ton of murders, most of the ones that I
Speaker 1: mentioned before. Then twenty nine year old Loretta Young Brown
Speaker 1: killed in eighty four, thirty four year old that a
Speaker 1: Turner killed in seventy three, thirteen year old Sonya Marian
Speaker 1: who was the one who we mentioned earlier. Her family
Speaker 1: never got justice originally, and then finally she was connected
Speaker 1: to him. Twenty one year old Terry Gene Cummings who
Speaker 1: I mentioned, and then Emma Cook and Teresa Giles who
Speaker 1: he confessed to, as well as eight year old Chandra
Speaker 1: Whitehead who was the young girl who's murder and sexual assault.
Speaker 1: Frankly Smith spent the rest of his life serving time
Speaker 1: for so. Fort Lauderdale police wanted to arrest Mosley for
Speaker 1: these murders, but psych psychiatric tests like he's in he's
Speaker 1: basically in the mental hospital, and Fort Lauderdale's like, no,
Speaker 1: we want to arrest him for these murders, but the
Speaker 1: psychiatric tests that they're giving him still continue to find him,
Speaker 1: like you know, incompetent to stand trial.
Speaker 3: So he remains at a mental hospital.
Speaker 1: During his treatment there, he is apparently a model patient,
Speaker 1: friendly followed rules, got into no trouble so and in
Speaker 1: treatment this is a person who would likely not have
Speaker 1: committed these crimes. And he was eventually transferred to a
Speaker 1: low risk unit and was allowed to leave the hospital
Speaker 1: on supervised visits to Walmart, and he remained in mental
Speaker 1: health facilities until he died in May of twenty twenty
Speaker 1: of COVID in one of these facilities.
Speaker 3: So there is, like I.
Speaker 1: Said, wildly not a lot of information about these this case.
Speaker 1: Like there's some a lot of Florida cential articles, some
Speaker 1: I could get to somewhere behind a bay wall. Also, these,
Speaker 1: like I said, these crimes were all perpetrated on black
Speaker 1: women and girls by black men in a black area
Speaker 1: Fort Lauderdale. So I don't think the media gave it
Speaker 1: the coverage that it would have if it was like
Speaker 1: I mean, this is like Ted Bundy levels of murderers
Speaker 1: and sexual assaults. But also every single person either committing
Speaker 1: these crimes or being accused of them was intellectually disabled,
Speaker 1: like Eddie Lee Mosley. Even though I agree he committed
Speaker 1: these horrific crimes, he was exhibiting signs of mental instability
Speaker 1: and in inellectual disability his entire life.
Speaker 3: Like as a child, he.
Speaker 1: Had learning disorders, and he had an entarot grade amnesia
Speaker 1: which caused him to struggle in school. He was forced
Speaker 1: out of school in third grade. He's from low income,
Speaker 1: he lives in terrible conditions, and so he obviously turns
Speaker 1: to a life of crime eventually, So it's kind of
Speaker 1: I mean eventually, it's like it really just feels like
Speaker 1: it's a failure of like the system to get these
Speaker 1: this failure of the justice system that two of these
Speaker 1: men went to jail for crimes they didn't come in
Speaker 1: and then it's a failure from Eddie Lee Moseley that
Speaker 1: he was never given any like mental health support and
Speaker 1: became a serial killer and rapist. So anyway, that's that
Speaker 1: on that And so it wasn't like unlike the episode
Speaker 1: where this guy is calculated, Like I don't think Eddie
Speaker 1: Lee Moseley was like, oh cool, like these guys are
Speaker 1: going down for my crimes. I think it was like
Speaker 1: a coincidence and you know, racism that they just grabbed
Speaker 1: a different guy for this crime. But it's like it's
Speaker 1: different from the episode in the sense that like it
Speaker 1: wasn't this mastermind who like moved to other states and
Speaker 1: then like started working after the guy got paroled.
Speaker 3: Damn. But that's that. Yeah, so many victims, so.
Speaker 1: Many, But I know that was really depressing. But we
Speaker 1: do have a guest coming up, so let's cleanse the ballot. Okay, guys,
Speaker 1: a lot of you have been begging for guests, and
Speaker 1: guests are back. Our guest today is a prolific film
Speaker 1: and television actor. He was the lead in several movies
Speaker 1: in the eighties, like The Lords of Discipline and White
Speaker 1: of the Eye. He also starred in films like Firestarter
Speaker 1: with Drew Barrymore and An Officer and a Gentleman.
Speaker 3: But you know him.
Speaker 1: Best as the unhinged cop who doesn't follow the rules
Speaker 1: John Hawk Hawkins. Please enjoy our chat with David Keith.
Speaker 1: You've been on Law and Order Criminal Intent as well.
Speaker 1: You've been on SVU, Like when you first were casts
Speaker 1: on this episode in season three, did you ever in
Speaker 1: a million years think that they'd be currently in season
Speaker 1: twenty six. I mean, like, this is one of the
Speaker 1: longest running live shows of all time.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's got a built in audience that will
Speaker 4: never go away.
Speaker 3: And yeah, we're we're right here.
Speaker 2: We're assuming this was an offer only there was no auditioning.
Speaker 4: Correct correct, Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was, but I
Speaker 4: can't remember for sure. But yeah, I hadn't done a
Speaker 4: lot of episodic at that point. But the script was
Speaker 4: just great. I mean I read the script and just
Speaker 4: loved it. And that's a part of a longer story
Speaker 4: that we'll get to. When we started tell us that.
Speaker 3: Different stuff, tell us tell us.
Speaker 4: Well, you know how when you're in episodic TV, okay,
Speaker 4: you get the white pages first, and that's the one
Speaker 4: from an actual writer, one of the writers on staff,
Speaker 4: and it was terrific. Well, as soon as the colored pages,
Speaker 4: the pink and the grain and the blues started coming in,
Speaker 4: and it was it had been you know, there were
Speaker 4: some dialogue changes from I guess the studio. Nobody ever
Speaker 4: told us who, but they said, and it started kind
Speaker 4: of diluting the what I thought the original story was.
Speaker 5: It just it didn't have the same impact.
Speaker 4: And so, being a you know, spoiled movie actor, I
Speaker 4: started complaining about that. And and Ted Kotcheff, who was
Speaker 4: directing us. You know, Ted was the I don't know
Speaker 4: what they call it, but he was the he was
Speaker 4: the main director for the series.
Speaker 5: So he was there all the time and he direct maybe.
Speaker 4: Two three episodes a season, and then he would oversee
Speaker 4: the different episodic directors that would come in. So Ted
Speaker 4: was directing this episode and he agreed with me one
Speaker 4: hundred percent on the white pages. So it became white.
Speaker 4: Every morning I'd carry around those white pages and I say,
Speaker 4: this is what I'd like to say. He'd say, do it,
Speaker 4: say it, and that the next time I was going
Speaker 4: a law in order.
Speaker 5: As soon as I suggested.
Speaker 4: One change, I was told, no change whatsoever. You say
Speaker 4: what's on the page. So it didn't I guess it
Speaker 4: didn't go over well with the the you know, the
Speaker 4: big wigs.
Speaker 5: But on that one we ended up shooting the white pages.
Speaker 3: So it was well that Ted was on your side too.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you got to go with great. I loved working
Speaker 5: with him.
Speaker 2: Do you remember some of the things that you hated?
Speaker 2: What were they trying to do? I'm glad you stuck
Speaker 2: to your guns, because we love the I don't.
Speaker 4: Remember. I remember there was one line that Chris has
Speaker 4: when they first talk about me coming into the case,
Speaker 4: and he says it's something about yeah, this is wide. Yes,
Speaker 4: that line vanished and I said I want that line back,
Speaker 4: and Chris didn't really like it, and because he thought
Speaker 4: it was like pumping me up too much or something.
Speaker 4: I said, no, man, it's sarcasm. Yes, this guy's a
Speaker 4: loose cannon, and that says he's a loose cannon because
Speaker 4: why it over was a total loose cannon. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 4: he wasn't some law abiding you know, Marshall. So that line,
Speaker 4: you know, Chris greed and we've got that line back
Speaker 4: in but I don't remember the rest.
Speaker 3: That's a great memory because that line.
Speaker 1: Talked about it when we did the recap of the episode, like,
Speaker 1: you know, you you come in and we're like, how
Speaker 1: does he know?
Speaker 3: Are they old partners?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 1: And then you find out he took his class at
Speaker 1: the academy. But you're right like right away, you know, oh,
Speaker 1: this is like a guy that one of these guest
Speaker 1: stars that comes in and plays by his own rules,
Speaker 1: you know, and.
Speaker 3: That you just says it right there.
Speaker 1: So glad you want for that line because it definitely
Speaker 1: still works.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah you were a dressed in all black.
Speaker 2: Did you know any of the actors beforehand?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 4: Oh yeah yeah yeah Belzer Belser, Yeah, we did a
Speaker 4: movie in nineteen ninety in Miami called.
Speaker 5: Oh Crap. It was with Cindy lawper Cool.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's married to one of the lawyers on the
Speaker 2: show which where oh yeah, yeah, yeah, he's a recurring lawyer.
Speaker 3: Her husband.
Speaker 5: Is that David?
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, see David.
Speaker 4: David had a small part in the movie too, and
Speaker 4: he was down there all the time and we became friends.
Speaker 5: But I haven't talked to I haven't talked.
Speaker 4: To I ran into Cindy at the d n C,
Speaker 4: but I haven't I haven't reconnected with David. But yeah,
Speaker 4: that's that's how I knew Belzer, and we've remained friends.
Speaker 4: So we went out to dinner, and you know, I
Speaker 4: just love Belzer. I love being around him. I love
Speaker 4: here and everything he says.
Speaker 5: I love him politically, Yeah, you know, he just he's
Speaker 5: just one of my heroes.
Speaker 3: Often running nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 5: That's it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, often running our producer.
Speaker 4: I think the original titles Moon over Miami and they
Speaker 4: changed it.
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, the cover is so cute. It's a drawing
Speaker 2: of you guys.
Speaker 5: Yeah, those drawings are always really great.
Speaker 3: You I love it.
Speaker 2: Well, now I'm seeing the two Jakes in here. That's wild.
Speaker 2: I was just talking about film Newark. Someone told me
Speaker 2: to watch Chinatown today. I can't even believe it.
Speaker 5: Watched Chinatown and watch the two Jakes back to back.
Speaker 3: I can't wait because they're what.
Speaker 5: Well, there is a twenty year sequel.
Speaker 4: Twenty years later, Jack plays the same character, and I'm
Speaker 4: the son. I played the son who's now a detective
Speaker 4: of one of the original Nemesis Police Nemesis of Jack's character,
Speaker 4: Jake Gidtis And yeah, but you know, Jack wrote that script,
Speaker 4: so it's man, it's as hard to follow as sitting
Speaker 4: with him in a long conversations it is. It's I
Speaker 4: read the script and when I went to see the movie,
Speaker 4: I was like, now, what, Oh, yeah, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it's very very meticulously built, and that a lot of
Speaker 4: you know, misleading information intentionally, so it's an interesting movie.
Speaker 3: Wow. Cool.
Speaker 1: I got to watch that. I've seen Chinatown, but not
Speaker 1: the two Jakes. I got to watch that, and.
Speaker 4: I loved working with Jack. He directed it as well,
Speaker 4: and he's the reason I became an actor. His performance
Speaker 4: An Easy Writer is when I switched from wanting to
Speaker 4: be a trial lawyer to wanting to be an actor.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 4: When he did that little role an Easy Writer, I
Speaker 4: just went, I can do that. That's the kind of
Speaker 4: actor I want to be. I never really wanted to
Speaker 4: be a leading man. Of course, Jack's both. He's a
Speaker 4: character leading man and that's it's always the dream. But
Speaker 4: there's just so many, so much room for character leading men.
Speaker 4: You know, they either have to be good looking or
Speaker 4: o never both.
Speaker 3: Oh god, cool.
Speaker 2: So when you get on set or you meet Jack,
Speaker 2: did you meet him before? Do you let him know
Speaker 2: like you're the reason I become an actor? Or do
Speaker 2: you kind of keep it cool?
Speaker 4: No? No, No, I told him he was the reason I
Speaker 4: became an actor. But that was several years before, maybe
Speaker 4: a decade before, when I met.
Speaker 5: Him at on the Rocks, lou Adler's place on Sunset.
Speaker 4: I was there with my manager, Aaron Russ Russo, and
Speaker 4: he introduced me to Jack, and you know, we saw
Speaker 4: each other off and on. We were always you know,
Speaker 4: I was always pulling for Doctor J in the seventy
Speaker 4: six ers and he was with Showtime and the Lakers.
Speaker 4: So when they played in eighty three, we were we
Speaker 4: were across the court from each.
Speaker 5: Other, you know, talking trash.
Speaker 4: And you know, we well, we talked about sports more
Speaker 4: than really movies.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I see you're wearing a ball's hat, right.
Speaker 5: You got it right.
Speaker 4: I'm so glad you didn't say Texas because people see
Speaker 4: the orange, they see the tea.
Speaker 5: They see Texas and I say, bite your tongue. So
Speaker 5: I'm glad to see my husband.
Speaker 1: My husband moved to Knoxville halfway through high school and
Speaker 1: finished high school there, and my brother in law still
Speaker 1: lives there. So I've been in Knoxville a bunch of times. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I found a bunch. It's really it's a it's a
Speaker 1: great tone. Yeah, But I've been there on game day
Speaker 1: where it's like the streets are like empty because everyone's
Speaker 1: just at the game.
Speaker 3: And then you just see all the burnt orange color
Speaker 3: come out.
Speaker 4: Not burnt what is Texas? Well, it's just regular orange orange. Yeah,
Speaker 4: And it's the color of an orange peel, really, and
Speaker 4: and all the other oranges like Syracuse are that you know,
Speaker 4: traffic cone orange, and Clemson and all they're they're that,
Speaker 4: you know, very bright orange, and we're a little more muted.
Speaker 5: But Ora, you know where the color came from.
Speaker 4: It actually came for the yellow and white daisies that
Speaker 4: grew on up on airshol back in the eighteen hundreds
Speaker 4: when the team was first founded, and they took those.
Speaker 4: So it was a yellow orange yellow at first and
Speaker 4: then darkened as the years went on.
Speaker 5: That's that's where they actually go.
Speaker 3: Are a historian of the Valls. I love that.
Speaker 4: Well, the thing around here is the falls are too
Speaker 4: important to enjoys. It transcends funk because it's like having
Speaker 4: a close relative major surgery every Friday, and will they
Speaker 4: live or it's just you know, my father, you didn't
Speaker 4: go around until about Wednesday if Tennessee lost a football game,
Speaker 4: And it's just my grandfather's were going, you know, shortly
Speaker 4: after the turn of the century, and our tickets have
Speaker 4: been We've had these same tickets for four generations. Now
Speaker 4: my kids are the fourth generation. And did they go there, Well,
Speaker 4: my son's thirteen, but my daughter's twenty three, and she
Speaker 4: recently got a theater degree and has moved to New
Speaker 4: York and trying to be an actress.
Speaker 5: She went there.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think he probably will too. I do have
Speaker 4: one other interesting you know, I thought we'd be talking
Speaker 4: about SVU. Well we were there, so I had planned
Speaker 4: you know, the script, the script part.
Speaker 5: So Ted, as I said, was directing this episode.
Speaker 4: And this was at the end of a shoot that
Speaker 4: instead of one season, they shot two seasons with no hiatus.
Speaker 4: WHOA and the cast was just.
Speaker 5: It was just exhausted. They were sick of it.
Speaker 4: They wanted a break, and this was the last show.
Speaker 4: So Ted comes in and he shoots this thing like
Speaker 4: a movie. I mean more setups per day, Like you'd
Speaker 4: think you'd finish the scene and he'd have like six
Speaker 4: more angles he wanted to shoot. And I was loving
Speaker 4: it because to me, what I dreaded about TV was
Speaker 4: that it would just be, you know, shoot a master,
Speaker 4: shoot four close ups and move on. And he shot
Speaker 4: it like a like a like an expensive movie, and
Speaker 4: so it was really wearing the kids out there, long
Speaker 4: long days, fourteen fifteen sixteen hour days, and the cast
Speaker 4: was just over it. And I was like, yeah, oh yeah,
Speaker 4: I was thinking of that.
Speaker 5: I know, if you'd have time to do it all,
Speaker 5: we have time to do it.
Speaker 4: So I was in heaven with Ted working our asses often,
Speaker 4: but the rest cast of not so much.
Speaker 2: Well, it probably helps Sabler's character, but also Saylor's kind
Speaker 2: of over it during all this. You know, Maloney is
Speaker 2: like annoyed with the like he's in a bad mood.
Speaker 3: So maybe a little bit.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, they were always great to me and
Speaker 4: always friendly with me, and you know, it was never
Speaker 4: like oh, David's on Ted's side, but you know, and
Speaker 4: I told him, I said, look, man, you know, i
Speaker 4: haven't worked in two or three months and I'm just
Speaker 4: digging this and christ just goes, yeah, but we are
Speaker 4: just so tired.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, I said, I got it, buddy, I got it.
Speaker 4: But you know, so I was hopping around the set,
Speaker 4: you know, happier in a big and poop.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, we've talked to a couple of the regulars that
Speaker 1: said that, like, that's what's so great about the way
Speaker 1: that the show is set up like that, guest stars
Speaker 1: come in with all this energy and like new energy
Speaker 1: for them all the time, you know, so that they
Speaker 1: didn't get bored with I think doing the same kind
Speaker 1: of show and like a procedural and you know, the
Speaker 1: same cast, Like they get people like you that come
Speaker 1: in and are like, yeah, you know, so, I bet you,
Speaker 1: I bet you helped their energy levels a little bit.
Speaker 3: Well yeas. And also shot like a movie. I mean
Speaker 3: it was told kind of like a movie.
Speaker 2: Will you tell us do you remember shooting the scene
Speaker 2: where you finally have come to terms the innocent man
Speaker 2: is in jail, You're drinking, there's bottles, there's papers, it's
Speaker 2: all hitting you.
Speaker 5: I remember, I remember shooting a scene. It was the
Speaker 5: last shot of the night.
Speaker 4: And I was kind of acted out at this point,
Speaker 4: and so I just kind of hung in there and
Speaker 4: try to do the best I could. I was that
Speaker 4: was probably the scene, the only scene will That was
Speaker 4: probably the scene of mine that I was least proud of.
Speaker 4: I thought I had another, should have given another twenty
Speaker 4: five to thirty percent in that scene, and I was drained,
Speaker 4: completely drained.
Speaker 5: Now if you'll.
Speaker 4: Remember, do you remember how that scene started the pan
Speaker 4: across all the stuff. Yeah, started on a Tennessee football helmet.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, you got some little props in there.
Speaker 5: I get him into almost everything I do, And I'll
Speaker 5: tell you this is how I do it.
Speaker 4: I first start with the director and say do you
Speaker 4: want me to use my accent or not?
Speaker 5: And if they say yeah, I like.
Speaker 4: The accent, you know, which most of the time they do,
Speaker 4: and I'll say, well, maybe he's from Tennessee. Maybe in
Speaker 4: his backstory he even played football at Tennessee. So what
Speaker 4: about some Tennessee props I can get him sent for free?
Speaker 4: And they said, well, no, they're copywriter. You can't put
Speaker 4: that I said no, no, no. The ut Athletic Work had
Speaker 4: a formal letter they sent to all my productions throughout
Speaker 4: my career saying it's fine to use Tennessee anything David
Speaker 4: wants to use it.
Speaker 3: I love that. That's so funny.
Speaker 4: I have a power Toat tattooed on my left shoulder
Speaker 4: and in Hawaii Oh, I had a sleeveless shirt on
Speaker 4: and they featured that featured the tattoo in one of
Speaker 4: the shots.
Speaker 3: Are you the number one fan? You must be the
Speaker 3: number one for generation?
Speaker 4: I would say there are hundreds of thousands.
Speaker 5: Of these people just like me.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have an acting question for you. Sure you're saying,
Speaker 2: you know you look back on that scene and you're
Speaker 2: disappointed in it. What do you do when you leave
Speaker 2: SAT and you're like fuck, like there's nothing you can do.
Speaker 3: How do you deal with that? You're just haunted for decades.
Speaker 4: I just went home and fell in the bed and
Speaker 4: went to sleep. No, I'm not haunted for decades. And
Speaker 4: you know, when I watch it, I don't think anybody
Speaker 4: else is going to feel like I short. It's only
Speaker 4: me because I know I have more.
Speaker 5: I know I knew that.
Speaker 4: Probably have we had we shot that scene earlier in
Speaker 4: the day, I could have done more with it, but
Speaker 4: I was just drained.
Speaker 5: Was empty.
Speaker 4: Tank was empty? Yeah, yeah, not totally empty. So so
Speaker 4: I think the scene is fine. I'm not like, see,
Speaker 4: there's no cringe worthy aspect to it whatsoever.
Speaker 3: It's just you know, dang, yeah we we didn't notice.
Speaker 1: But I mean, I bet you as an actor, notice
Speaker 1: you know what you want, what you wanted it to be.
Speaker 2: You know, well, because it's a big moment, you know,
Speaker 2: he finally admits what happened.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: My question too, is what is it about you? Because
Speaker 1: I'm going through your IMDb. You've played a lot of cops,
Speaker 1: a lot of detectives, a lot of more than one
Speaker 1: guy named Hawk.
Speaker 3: You just look like a guy that looks like a hawk.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like, uh, it's very interesting you you've
Speaker 1: played a lot of I mean, do you think you
Speaker 1: mostly play like kind of I mean, you've obviously have
Speaker 1: over one hundred credits, You've played a million different things.
Speaker 1: But would you say, like you play a ton of
Speaker 1: sort of like characters like this, like this guy, like cops.
Speaker 4: Later in my career, but you know, I used to
Speaker 4: get to think, hey, you always played military guys. Oh yeah, right,
Speaker 4: because that was a big part of mine, with Austin
Speaker 4: and a gentleman and.
Speaker 5: Behind me lines and all that stuff.
Speaker 4: But I don't know I have I've never gone gone
Speaker 4: back and looked at.
Speaker 5: Which group.
Speaker 4: Of society I have performed in the most. I'm never
Speaker 4: really never really crossed my mind. But it seems like
Speaker 4: I feel like I've played as many bad guys.
Speaker 5: As I have a good guy.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you know, I just.
Speaker 5: Played a role I say justed.
Speaker 4: We shot it in twenty twenty three, but you know
Speaker 4: in a movie that is outstreaming now and it's going
Speaker 4: to be on It starts on Hulu in March, and
Speaker 4: it's called Dead Money, and it's a poker heist movie
Speaker 4: with uh Emil Hirsch is.
Speaker 5: The lead and I'm the villain.
Speaker 4: I also creative executive produced it, and and you know,
Speaker 4: I wrote a lot of.
Speaker 5: The scenes and and really had a lot of input.
Speaker 4: I helped I picked the director, and we did the
Speaker 4: casting together, and so I was involved in that creatively,
Speaker 4: you know, from soup to nuts. So I'm very proud
Speaker 4: of that movie. And I wrote my character in there
Speaker 4: that he had a bad dye job. So I have
Speaker 4: my hair, you know, and my goatee.
Speaker 5: Died this really dark brown that looks totally wrong, you.
Speaker 3: Know, like so, but and it's too Who is just
Speaker 3: in an episode of SPU that we covered.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah he's in.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I'm not not very nice to him in
Speaker 4: that movie.
Speaker 5: You'll see. That's all I'm gonna say. Okay, but you
Speaker 5: should see the movie. It really is the best movie.
Speaker 4: That's this little company I've been working with out of
Speaker 4: Jacksonville in Atlanta.
Speaker 5: We've done I did the first three.
Speaker 4: Movies with him, and then they've done two more since then,
Speaker 4: and that they're really coming of their own. But Dead
Speaker 4: Money is the best thing that that group has produced
Speaker 4: so far.
Speaker 5: This out cool, but yeah, you'll like it.
Speaker 2: You worked with our favorite Bette Middler with Drew Barrymore.
Speaker 2: We would love to know some a story or something.
Speaker 1: Thatt Middler's my childhood idol into adulthood.
Speaker 4: Well that was Mars. Yeah, that was my first movie.
Speaker 4: I've done a couple of little day player roles before that,
Speaker 4: but that was my first movie. And I was so
Speaker 4: starstruck by her when she played in nineteen seventy three,
Speaker 4: she did a con search here in Knoxville, and I
Speaker 4: slept out in front of the UG ticket office in
Speaker 4: a sleeping bag with my new puppy and was front
Speaker 4: got front row center tickets to that. So when I
Speaker 4: went into the meeting for you know, I told that.
Speaker 4: When I went in the meeting, and they were very
Speaker 4: you know, that meant a lot to Aaron Russo, who
Speaker 4: was her manager. But I went in and read for
Speaker 4: Nancy Clopper, the casting director, and it was this sensitive
Speaker 4: scene in that movie where he's telling her how he
Speaker 4: wanted always wanted to be a vet and he delivered
Speaker 4: this cat that was breached and all that, and and
Speaker 4: I looked up and there were tears coming down the
Speaker 4: casting director's face, and she picked up the phone and
Speaker 4: call the director Mark right Well.
Speaker 5: She said, I'm bringing.
Speaker 4: Mal over to your house right now. So I went
Speaker 4: over there, read with him, and uh, and then nothing happened.
Speaker 4: I didn't hear from anybody. Two months went by, so
Speaker 4: I said, heck, I'm moving back. I'm going back to
Speaker 4: New York. I missed my girlfriend and so I left LA.
Speaker 4: As soon as I landed in New York and got
Speaker 4: to the apartment, my girlfriend had made fried chicken my favorite.
Speaker 4: The phone rings and they say, get back on a plane. Well,
Speaker 4: that's that's not an actor story. I'll tell you one
Speaker 4: quick Jack story. There's a scene in the Two Jakes
Speaker 4: where I'm supposed to be waiting by the car my character,
Speaker 4: who's this, you know, dipshit young cop. And I'm supposed
Speaker 4: to be waiting by the car. And so they've got
Speaker 4: a camera set up and Jack's over there and I said,
Speaker 4: I want to try a couple of things. He said,
Speaker 4: Keith sent you a fucking great actor. You just hold
Speaker 4: up one finger to take one, two fingers for take two.
Speaker 5: I'll just let the motherfucker roll.
Speaker 4: And so he just let the camera roll, and I
Speaker 4: did all these things, twirling my pistol and practicing my
Speaker 4: quick drawl and all these crazy things. And that was
Speaker 4: just a it was such a moment of freedom when
Speaker 4: he said that. And you never really have total freedom
Speaker 4: with any director. You know, you're in the confines of
Speaker 4: what he sees and the limit. Now you can bring
Speaker 4: things and you can stretch those boundaries. But that's the
Speaker 4: only time I've ever had the boundaries removed. Yeah, and
Speaker 4: just told do whatever you want. I mean, it's a tiny,
Speaker 4: little scene. You know, it wasn't really dial it wasn't
Speaker 4: dialogue or anything, but it was just amazing feeling the
Speaker 4: best scene I ever played with the best actor.
Speaker 5: Of course, scenes with Jack were great, but.
Speaker 4: They weren't They weren't real, you know, they weren't deep.
Speaker 4: And the scene I played with Gene Hackman where we
Speaker 4: go to toe to toe in behind enemy lines, took
Speaker 4: about three hours to shoot. And that is my that
Speaker 4: is the greatest three hours I've ever spent as an actor.
Speaker 4: No matter how deep I went, he would go just
Speaker 4: as deep, and we just it just kept getting richer
Speaker 4: and richer. And when it was over, I said, I
Speaker 4: just want to tell you, Jane, that's the best three
Speaker 4: hours I've ever ever spent as an actor.
Speaker 5: And he was.
Speaker 4: He was kind of a curmudgeon a little bit in
Speaker 4: the film because he'd just come off a film where
Speaker 4: the director was such a stickler for dialogue and Jane
Speaker 4: was worried about and I remembering his lines, and he
Speaker 4: was the age then that I am now seventy, and.
Speaker 5: So he was.
Speaker 4: He wasn't mean anybody. He was nice, said, you know,
Speaker 4: he's friendly, but he was he was still just you
Speaker 4: could tell it was kind of where it was. He
Speaker 4: was in an abrasive state a little bit, and as
Speaker 4: soon as he finished his last line in the movie,
Speaker 4: he became this total class clown.
Speaker 5: He was laughing, telling jokes.
Speaker 4: He was so happy to have gotten all his dialogue done.
Speaker 4: And it's a different person, different person, But I loved
Speaker 4: working with him.
Speaker 3: He's one of the greats. I mean, I love him
Speaker 3: so much. Like that's exciting.
Speaker 2: You have such a passion for what you do after
Speaker 2: you know all these years.
Speaker 4: It's nice, it's it's great when the cameras roll and
Speaker 4: then you're working. Sitting around is the worst part. And
Speaker 4: Ben Johnson, the famous character actor, some actors complaining about
Speaker 4: having to wait, and he said, son, do you not
Speaker 4: understand where, Uh, we act for free.
Speaker 5: We're paid to wait.
Speaker 4: The reason you make your money is to sit around
Speaker 4: waiting to shoot. Then when you shoot, that's you do
Speaker 4: that for nothing.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's kind of true. It's kind of true.
Speaker 3: It is so true because I think about that with
Speaker 3: stand up.
Speaker 2: We're both stand ups and I'm on the road all
Speaker 2: the time, and when I'm on stage doing shows, it's
Speaker 2: my favorite thing ever. But of course, like I'm going
Speaker 2: to get in the two hour uber, I'm going to
Speaker 2: get on my flight.
Speaker 3: I'm going to you know, all.
Speaker 2: Of that is what you're getting paid for, the hotel,
Speaker 2: you know, eating like airport food, and then the prize
Speaker 2: is on stage.
Speaker 5: Exactly what's next?
Speaker 3: What do you want to do? What haven't you done?
Speaker 2: Is there a role that you're like, I need to
Speaker 2: play something like this, or you're just open to stuff?
Speaker 5: What's the I'm open to stuff right now. You know
Speaker 5: that I've written.
Speaker 4: I'm just finishing my fourth script in the last like
Speaker 4: six months, and I want to do I want to
Speaker 4: do one of these scripts at least, if not more.
Speaker 4: So I'm hoping that this little movie company that I've
Speaker 4: been working with will come around and decide to do
Speaker 4: one of them.
Speaker 5: And I think I didn't.
Speaker 4: Know I could write, and and I'm very very happy
Speaker 4: with stuff I'm writing.
Speaker 3: That's great.
Speaker 4: I never thought I could even get started, and it
Speaker 4: just flows better than I ever dreamed.
Speaker 5: So I'm really happy with these And do.
Speaker 3: You want to direct them?
Speaker 5: Yes? Everything?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: The main thing is if you're asking about a plug,
Speaker 4: the main thing I want to plug is dead money,
Speaker 4: oh bad money with me and Emile Hurstad.
Speaker 5: Money on starts on Hulu in March.
Speaker 3: Amazing, okay, perfect, this will come out just in time
Speaker 3: for that.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Cool, that's cool. I'm glad you're getting so fun. Yeah,
Speaker 3: this was great.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, David, will let you will let
Speaker 1: you go, and we will make sure everybody's going to
Speaker 1: see Dead Money.
Speaker 5: Cool.
Speaker 3: All right, thanks David.
Speaker 2: I mean that was really fun. Love talking to him.
Speaker 2: When an unhinged, wild episode, I know.
Speaker 1: I mean it's also because this is season three, he
Speaker 1: might be like the prototype of like the first guy
Speaker 1: that comes in and knows the case tries to act
Speaker 1: like he knows the case better than you know, Like
Speaker 1: we just had Delroy Lindo, We've had you know, I.
Speaker 3: Feel like Anthony Anderson did that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, even Erica Christiansen to a degree, is that kind
Speaker 1: of character. Like these characters that just come in and
Speaker 1: like think that they know better than Benson and Stabler
Speaker 1: and then like they have to all work together to.
Speaker 3: Teach that, you know, teamwork makes the dream work.
Speaker 1: But but yeah, this episode is wild.
Speaker 3: It's also it's so freaky because this one.
Speaker 1: I felt had a really really graphic violence against the
Speaker 1: victims and that they sort of like showed parts of it,
Speaker 1: and then the guy who ends up doing it is
Speaker 1: like so just like innocuous, you know, Like when it
Speaker 1: was the guy in baggage, You're like, yeah, that guy
Speaker 1: looks like he would fucking kill you, like for some reason,
Speaker 1: Like the way he was like sneering. This guy did
Speaker 1: truly look just like an unassuming accountant with like.
Speaker 2: I don't trust an accountant. That's I mean a dangerous
Speaker 2: type of person. So yeah, but like suspicious.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: It just scared me so much the way he was
Speaker 1: just in that woman's apartment, just having wine with her,
Speaker 1: and now she acted like that was no big deal.
Speaker 1: She also is deeply stupid for letting like an IRS
Speaker 1: agent like into her home.
Speaker 2: She was scared she was gonna get fucked you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, Yeah, fucked over financially.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but she was gonna get her teeth fucking knocked
Speaker 1: out and murdered I know of.
Speaker 3: And it's like, you never like to hear Melinda Warner go.
Speaker 1: With what this woman went through death was a blessing,
Speaker 1: Like you never want to hear that from someone who's seen.
Speaker 3: Everything, you know, that is the worst.
Speaker 2: Like she was like this was bud, but Also, I
Speaker 2: can't believe he got away with biting the victims for
Speaker 2: as long as he did with dental stuff.
Speaker 3: I know.
Speaker 2: That's true, or why they would have to exhume the
Speaker 2: body if they had the dental records from the past crimes.
Speaker 1: Yeah again season three. I don't feel like they were
Speaker 1: always connecting all the dots in the very early seasons.
Speaker 1: I didn't think they thought we were be They maybe
Speaker 1: didn't know the show was going to be on for
Speaker 1: twenty five years and that some of us would just
Speaker 1: be watching every episode seventy five times and earning a
Speaker 1: law degree from watching it.
Speaker 3: So I don't know.
Speaker 1: I do feel like we find holes all the time
Speaker 1: in a lot of these episodes, but I don't know
Speaker 1: what we what's the big takeaway lesson? I mean, definitely
Speaker 1: that the cops are constantly don't.
Speaker 2: Put away someone into jail that didn't do it so
Speaker 2: you can look like a cool cop, like but also
Speaker 2: for none of his coworkers to be like, that's not
Speaker 2: the guy.
Speaker 3: He couldn't do that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just can't believe it went through try like
Speaker 2: this many things that.
Speaker 3: Any many years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for a crime where like no evidence was left behind.
Speaker 1: I don't know it's well, and then the and in
Speaker 1: the episode, it's like the guy was doing it. So
Speaker 1: he was originally even on their list because he testified
Speaker 1: to seeing the guy in the building, Like so he
Speaker 1: was framing him on purpose, Like pretty hardcore. So you've
Speaker 1: got a psychopath who's framing you. But also it's like,
Speaker 1: did any of you guys have a conversation with this
Speaker 1: man you think this is? This man is like capable
Speaker 1: of like evading the cops on all these murders, like
Speaker 1: the Soho strangler, like just lumbering around. I mean the
Speaker 1: guy is like not like I don't know, he's not
Speaker 1: a stealth killer from not meticulous.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it just also goes to show you that
Speaker 1: Huang's profiles are seldom wrong. You know, he knew the
Speaker 1: guy was educated white middle management.
Speaker 3: You know he knew he knew.
Speaker 2: And stabler fuck you with your little attitude. I mean,
Speaker 2: but he had a right to be mad, Like obviously
Speaker 2: that would make me mad too, But like I just
Speaker 2: hate the vibe of like, well, now I'm going to
Speaker 2: ruin it for all of you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, now I'm gonna be rude to a girl who
Speaker 1: just found her roommate dead because I'm like just pissed
Speaker 1: that the like the justice system doesn't work all the time.
Speaker 1: You know, He's he's got a lot going on, that
Speaker 1: fucking guy. But they they definitely had so much in
Speaker 1: the early seasons, like the early handful of seasons that
Speaker 1: was like it's getting to Elliott, Like I don't think
Speaker 1: they do that much.
Speaker 3: With Benson.
Speaker 1: They did so much of like, oh, this case involves
Speaker 1: a little girl, and you guys know Elliott has a
Speaker 1: bunch of little girls. You know, Like there was so
Speaker 1: much like this is how it's getting in his head,
Speaker 1: and they didn't I don't know they.
Speaker 2: Ben's well that well, yeah, that's the thing Stablirt's family,
Speaker 2: And with Benson, it's just like anytime there's a single
Speaker 2: woman or an alcoholic or like a mom that's bad yeah,
Speaker 2: or an alcoholic mom yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah totally, or like being popular.
Speaker 2: In school or something, she's connected in different ways.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean a good episode.
Speaker 2: I think I've been a little too hard on it
Speaker 2: with some of the silly like I just didn't get
Speaker 2: the contact of it all. Like there was just these
Speaker 2: extra additional clues that were annoying to me. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: but it's not nice because it's an amazing episode, riveting.
Speaker 1: It is a like Honestly, as I was watching it,
Speaker 1: I was like, I know, I've seen this one a
Speaker 1: million times, but it kind of felt like it was
Speaker 1: coming back to me a little bit new.
Speaker 3: So I liked that.
Speaker 1: And I do sort of like the serial Killer episodes
Speaker 1: that feels like so crazy, But I do kind of
Speaker 1: like the ones where like they've been looking for a
Speaker 1: guy for a long time or whatever.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: You know what, I'm getting an urge to watch while
Speaker 2: I pack and shower. Well, now when I shower, when
Speaker 2: I dry off, I want to watch the Mattress Killer one.
Speaker 3: With oh the women? What is that one with bedtime? Yeah? Bedtime?
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Bedtime Killer or whatever. Maybe I'll watch it
Speaker 1: before bed tonight. That's what I'm really in the mood for.
Speaker 1: Speaking of old crowd, A cozy little, A cozy little
Speaker 1: like Bedtime where she liked the old butcher.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she keeps the old sheets. Was she she
Speaker 2: should have won an Emmy for that one. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: and Margaret was crazy. We talked to Jacqueline Smith for
Speaker 2: that one. That was awesome.
Speaker 3: I was in step.
Speaker 1: We talked to a Charlie's Angel. Anyway, let's move on
Speaker 1: to what would Sister Peg Do? This is our weekly
Speaker 1: segment where we direct you guys to an organization, an article,
Speaker 1: a blog, a documentary, something to give you more info
Speaker 1: about what we talked about in today's episode. And this
Speaker 1: week for WWSPD, we'd like to point you to the
Speaker 1: Equal Justice Initiative. This organization is committed to ending mass
Speaker 1: incarceration and excessive punishment in the United States, challenging racial
Speaker 1: and economic injustice, and protecting basic human rights for the
Speaker 1: most vulnerable people in American society. Obviously, I hated hearing
Speaker 1: about two mentally disabled men going to jail for multiple
Speaker 1: over a decade each for crimes they didn't commit. So
Speaker 1: organizations like this are doing a lot of work to
Speaker 1: stop stuff like that from happening. EJI works with communities
Speaker 1: that have been marginalized by poverty and discouraged by unequal treatment.
Speaker 1: They also provide research and recommendations to assist advocates and
Speaker 1: policymakers in criminal justice reform. So for more info, you
Speaker 1: can go to EJI dot org and we link that
Speaker 1: in our show notes as always, and we will post
Speaker 1: it as a link in our stories, that comes out
Speaker 1: the data this episode comes out, and then that gets
Speaker 1: saved forever in our WWSPD highlight on our Instagram page,
Speaker 1: which is That's Messed Up Pod. If you ever want
Speaker 1: to go back and check out what organizations and docs
Speaker 1: and articles we've highlighted before, they're all saved there.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for that, And next week we'll
Speaker 2: be doing Gamblers Fallacy Season fifteen, episode seventeen, Boom Boom
Speaker 2: Boom goes to the Dynamite. Thanks for listening. Bye. That's
Speaker 2: Messed Up as an exactly right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
Speaker 1: at That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
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Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien
Speaker 2: and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain, and to our.
Speaker 1: Mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and
Speaker 1: to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly Jean
Speaker 1: Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers,
Speaker 1: Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at
Speaker 1: Exactly Right Media.
Speaker 3: Dun Dun