1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: So crime f A shooting. I don't know what f 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: A is. Precinct of occurrence. Ninth location in front of 3 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: me and my producer Austin is something we always knew 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: we needed, but we're never sure we'd be allowed to 5 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:20,639 Speaker 1: see something essential to ever understanding the full story of 6 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: what happened to Billy Balls. We're finally holding the police 7 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: report from Billy's shooting. The NYPD sent a small stack 8 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: of statements, forensic reports, handwritten notes, and twelve crime scene photos. 9 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: Oh my god, Oh Jesus, this is a photograph of 10 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: the front door of thirteen third Avenue. It's a black 11 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: and white, super high contrast photograph, clearly taken at night, 12 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: with a flash of the front of the storefront where 13 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: my mom and Billy lived. And this is a crime 14 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: scene photo. That's the words. I've heard so many stories 15 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 1: from my mom about this storefront. It's wild to finally 16 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: see the whole place. Oh my god. Now I'm looking 17 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: at a photograph of the inside of their apartment. There's 18 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: exposed pipes on the ceiling and and just ship everywhere. 19 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: It's just one big open room and there's stuff piled 20 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: on everything, and the bed is up on a platform 21 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: in the back of the room near the kitchen. The 22 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: other thing about this photo that this was exactly what 23 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: my house looked like when I was a kid. I 24 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: see evidence of her in this space. There's like some 25 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: Grecian bust over here. There's flowers, there's the telephone, there's 26 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: the workout gear, the movies, the records, like everything is out, everything, 27 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: every evidence of being lives on display. The next photo 28 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: is a photo of the bathtub that she said he 29 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: installed for her. There's a beer can resting on the 30 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: edge of the bathtub, and like bags of stuff on 31 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 1: the ground, and there's two toothbrushes and holder on the wall. 32 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: This was their world drawn. My brother had birds always, 33 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: oh really mostly harmless little birds. Where did you keep 34 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: all those birds? Isn't that pronounced av Harry? This is 35 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: a photograph of a mirror. It's like the bottom piece 36 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: of a mirror. Oh, there's a bullet hole in it. 37 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: Snacks pictures of a dresser with bullet holes in it. God, 38 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: how many shots did this fucking guy fire. This is 39 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: a photograph of the moment that somebody's life changed forever. 40 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: Nothing was the same after this day, not in his life, 41 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: her life, Amanda's mine. This day changed everything from crime town. 42 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: I'm io till it right and this is the ballad 43 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 1: of Billy Balls. The dude with the cowboy hat broke 44 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: down the door, shooting that wasn't undercover narcotics to texted 45 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: on the north side of the street as the ninth precinct. 46 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: I would like to hear if they still have records 47 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: from then, where they would be and how one could 48 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 1: get them released. The NYPD has sent us a call, 49 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: if you will, of records. There is a story that 50 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: the police tell here Chapter eight. Cops tend to shoot. Okay, 51 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: so there's the complaint report. Storefront, Third Avenue arrested William 52 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: heightsman age thirty seven, height five ft ten, weight hundred 53 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: and fifty okay, oh shit. Defendant arrested and charged attempted 54 00:05:55,200 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 1: murder of a police officer. Defendant did cock and point 55 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: a loaded caliber automatic at undercover police officer number blank 56 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: blocked out in an attempt to shoot said officer. Wow. 57 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: After Billy's shooting the undercover cop, the guy in the 58 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: cowboy hat gave a statement about what happened. We now 59 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: have that statement. A d A O'Donohue from the Manhattan 60 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: District Attorney's Office was present at the ninth Precinct and 61 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: took a statement from undercover narcotics police officer shield number 62 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: blacked out. The officer stated that he had gone to 63 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: Avenue to make a narcotics purchase from a male known 64 00:06:52,000 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: as Billy Piano William Heightsman. During the time that he 65 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: was in the apartment, the police officer observed the subject 66 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: look at a telephone number written on a newspaper and 67 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: then call his suppliers. While the subject was on the phone, 68 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: the PO managed to look at the number and then 69 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: went into the bathroom to write the number down. We 70 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: cool The subject came into the bathroom and observed the 71 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: PO writing on the paper. At that point, the subject 72 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: drew a caliber automatic and stated to the p O, 73 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: give me the fucking paper. Give me the fucking paper. 74 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: The PO slipped the paper in his pocket and walked 75 00:07:55,400 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: out of the bathroom. The PURP was still holding the 76 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: gun on him. The PO started to hand over his 77 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: buy money and then drew his three eight automatic and 78 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: fired seven rounds. The subject was struck at least five times. 79 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: The PO was not sure if the PURP had managed 80 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:36,719 Speaker 1: to fire a shot the purp was removed by ambulance 81 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: to cabrin Hospital. Caliber automatic was recovered at the scene 82 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: and vouchered at the ninth precinct under and then it's 83 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: blocked out. There were no witnesses to the actual shooting 84 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: due to the fact that it took place inside the 85 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: apartment and only the po and the subject were present. 86 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: Forensic report from the crime scene unit Caliber Automatic, Webley 87 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 1: and Scott shows no evidence of discharge. A single page 88 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: forensic report says that the gun the undercover cop claims 89 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: Billy poled was never fired. Next page says Cabrini Hospital 90 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 1: doctor's name is also blacked out. Five torso front, one 91 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 1: back and that's five shots in the torso and one 92 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: in the back. Then we turned to a page that 93 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: looks like it's been photo copied from some sort of notebook. 94 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: This is just a piece of paper that's handwriting, that 95 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: lists the kind of gun that Billy has, the serial 96 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: number of it. And then this person wrote out the 97 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: name of the guy in the cowboy had it's written 98 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: here and blocked out. The name of the undercover cop 99 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: has been covered by a big black rectangle. This is 100 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: so frustrating because it's written by hand. It's almost like 101 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: it's so close. In homicide cases like this in New 102 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: York City, a detective is assigned to investigate whether the 103 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: shooting is justified. During his investigation, the detective rights follow 104 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: up reports that are known as d D five's. We 105 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: turned to a d D five from the day after 106 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: the shooting. Number one at hours which is five pm 107 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: on June four two. I was president Cabrini Hospital and 108 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: did attempt to interview the purp in this matter, one 109 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 1: William Heightsman in I see you there at at the 110 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: time of the attempted interview, the purpose in a semi 111 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: conscious state and was unable to respond to our inquiries. 112 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: The investigating detective tried to take Billy's statement on the 113 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,199 Speaker 1: first day he was in the hospital, but Billy couldn't talk. 114 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: In another d D five, a detective reports a part 115 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: of the case that has haunted my mother for decades 116 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: June six one, Police Plaza, the purp William Heightsman, did 117 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: expire from gunshot wounds at Cabrini Hospital on six fift two. 118 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: And then it says case remains closed justifiable homicide. So 119 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: that right there is the end of the investigation into 120 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: what happened to Billy Balls As far as the police 121 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: are concerned, they classified it as justifiable homicide and closed 122 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: the case the day after he died. The day after 123 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: he died. That's the last d D five that we have. 124 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. They're saying, 125 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: first of all, that he had a gun, which we 126 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: don't know if he had. Again, so not only is 127 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: he saying that he had a gun, but he's saying 128 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: he pulled it on him and cocked it, and still 129 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: he had time to shoot seven rounds before Billy fired 130 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: even one. I don't buy it. I don't know what 131 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: any of this means. You know who does know what 132 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: all of this means? He Austin run. How are you saying? 133 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 1: I'm great? Man? How are you? I'm good? I wanted 134 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: to see if they we could schedule a time to 135 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: come by and talk through the police report. Um, yeah, 136 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: that would be great. Uh, that would be great. What 137 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: works for you, Ron? I do have one more question, though, 138 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: how do you think we should riff her to you? 139 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: Because you're not our lawyer? Yeah? I mean, really, any 140 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: anything that you want works in the law, cowboy, right? 141 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: You know law outlaw hired Gun the Lost Linger. I 142 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: I don't you know what? Really, pretty much anything works great, 143 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: ron Koby the Lost Linger. After the break, how did partner? 144 00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 1: I'm very excited about what's about to happen. Austin and 145 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: I show up to Ron Koby's office with high expectations 146 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 1: that we'll get some answers. Thanks for seeing us. Ron 147 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 1: leads us into a corner conference room. I think the 148 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: office smells like dog pass I wonder how that happened. Well, 149 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: luckily you have dogs. We sit down and the tone 150 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: of the room changes as we begin looking through the 151 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: police report. When you looked at the police report, generally, 152 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: did anything jump out at you? So let me tell 153 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: you how I read all of these documents together and 154 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: the story that the police have. Ron starts with the 155 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: detailed account of what happened inside the storefront that night. 156 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: So the detective who who's making this report is speaking 157 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: to the undercover. This is all sort of you know, 158 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: within a couple hours of of the shooting. The undercover 159 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: stated that he had gone to Third Avenue to make 160 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: a narcotics purchase from a male known as Billy Piano. 161 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: During the time that he was in the apartment. The 162 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: PO observed the subject look at a telephone number written 163 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: on a newspaper and then call his supplier, and and 164 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: and so. Right now, at this moment, Billie has been 165 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: pegged for exactly what he is, which very small time 166 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: drug dealer, um street level drug deals. But he's obviously 167 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: getting his drugs from somebody, and the idea is to 168 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: find out who he's getting his drugs from, work your 169 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: way up the chain until finally you get somebody who's 170 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: actually worth arresting. So that makes perfect sense so far. Um. 171 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: While the subject was on the phone, the police officer 172 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: managed to look at the number and then went into 173 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: the bathroom to write the number down. That also kind 174 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: of makes perfect sense. The subject came into the bathroom 175 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: and reserve the police officer writing on the paper. At 176 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: this point, the subject to caliber automatic and stated to 177 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: the p O, give me the fucking paper. Give me 178 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: the fucking paper. And that also makes sense, the part 179 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: that I don't buy entirely. Um. So the police officer 180 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: slipped the paper in his pocket and walked out of 181 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: the bathroom, presumably will be at LEAs still holding the 182 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: gun on him, which strikes me as a needless risk. 183 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: I mean, under those circumstances, when somebody's pointing a gun 184 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: at you, saying, hand over the paper, hand of the paper, 185 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: what does one do, hand over the fucking paper. Yeah, exactly, 186 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 1: So I don't entirely quote unquote by that account. The 187 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 1: police officer walked out of the bathroom, the purp billy 188 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: was still holding the gun on him. I mean, I 189 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: kind of believe that billy lowers the gun or doesn't 190 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: keep the gun trained on the comp And I kind 191 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: of believe that based on what the cop is saying 192 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: that he did. The police officer started to hand over 193 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 1: his buy money and then drew his three eight automatic 194 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 1: and fired some rounds. So then the subject was struck 195 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: at least five times. Police also not sure if the 196 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 1: perk managed to fire shots. Purpose removed to Cabrini Hospital, 197 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: automatic was recovered the scene and vouchered at the ninth Precinct. 198 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: Ron's conclusion, it's not huh exactly like the police say 199 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 1: it is, but it's not a premeditated murder either. Part 200 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: of the reason Run thinks it's not a premeditated murder 201 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: is because the undercover cop describes using something called buy 202 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 1: money with Billy buy money. And that's a term of art. 203 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 1: When you go make an undercover operation, an undercover drug purchase, 204 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: they record the serial numbers of the currency that's being 205 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: handed over, and that way, when they make an arrest, 206 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: they can report that, you know, the defendant had on 207 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: him eighty dollars of pre marked by money. These are 208 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,640 Speaker 1: the serial numbers, and and and so that suggests, at 209 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: the very least, this is not some rogue operation that 210 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: the undercover is conducting on his own for the purpose 211 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: of his own whatever. It suggests, this is all part 212 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: of a real operation. I don't think Billy suspected for 213 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: a minute that this was an undercover up. I think 214 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 1: he thought this was just some you know, dirt bag 215 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: buyer who was trying to um jump over him in 216 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: the supply chain to cut out his profit margin. I 217 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: don't think Billy intended to shoot anybody, or would have 218 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 1: shot anybody. I think the gun was there silly for 219 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: intimidation purposes. They recovered its caliber Webley and Scott. It's 220 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: an old, not terribly great gun. This is this is 221 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 1: not a serious gun in the sense of you don't 222 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,199 Speaker 1: go into combat situations with one of those things This is, 223 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: this is a pocket pistol that you keep for intimidation 224 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: purposes or maybe have to shoot somebody in run. And 225 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: it's exactly the kind of gun that if if you 226 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: thought that somebody was closing it on you and you 227 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 1: get rid of most of your heavy duty firearms. It's 228 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: the kind of thing you just sort of keep in 229 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,360 Speaker 1: your pocket. And if you're like just a regular dirtbag 230 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: drug buyer, kind of street buyer kind of thing, so 231 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 1: many points ave done it you you're going to be intimidated. 232 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 1: You know, if if you're a cop and you happen 233 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 1: to be carrying your own pocket pistol, a much bigger 234 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: and better pocket pistol than the ones being pointed at you, 235 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: you're gonna have a very different response. What about the 236 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: fact that the police report says Billy was shot five 237 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: times in the torso and once in the back. If 238 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 1: it were the other way around, five shots in the 239 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: back of one of the torso, I'd be a lot 240 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 1: more suspicious. And there's a couple of things about this. 241 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: One is frequently what what is referred to casually as 242 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: the back is the side um, And if it was 243 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 1: a shot in the back, my My guess is that 244 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 1: once the detective started firing, at some point Billy was 245 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 1: turned or spun around. I mean, I guess there's a 246 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 1: universe you could say, well, why don't you think he 247 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 1: shot him once in the back and then Billy, having 248 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: been shot in the back, turns around and gets five 249 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: in the torso. And I guess the answer is, given 250 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,360 Speaker 1: the way this went down, I can't really see Billy 251 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: turning his back to the undercover. So this is the 252 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 1: forensic report was sent by the crime scene unit. The 253 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,479 Speaker 1: crime scene unit took a look at what they claim 254 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: was Billy's gun, shows no evidence of discharge. Can you 255 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 1: say Billy did not shoot towards the cop. Billy didn't 256 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: didn't fire his gun at all, but as we know, 257 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: the undercover cop definitely did. Um they recovered six auto 258 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: discharged shells on the floor near the entrance. For the 259 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 1: first time, this detail that all the discharged shells were 260 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: found near the entrance sticks out to me. Okay, the 261 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: cop in the bathroom, then getting out of the bathroom 262 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: with a gun trained on you, and then getting all 263 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: the way back across the apartment and you're by the door. 264 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,719 Speaker 1: You have now fully established that Not only is this 265 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 1: person not going to shoot you, you're on the move, 266 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: So why do you then basically get to the door 267 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 1: where you could conceivably walk out and leave and turn 268 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: around and shoot him. I agree, Like if you found 269 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 1: one of the discharged shells near the entrance, you could say, 270 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: all right, somebody kicked it in the scuffle, um, But 271 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: all of them seemed to indicate that that was the 272 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: area in which the cop was was shooting. But again, 273 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: cops don't have to leave an armed perpetrator alone in 274 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: an apartment. Cops get to shoot them, which is why 275 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: I said all along, I don't think the killing happened 276 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 1: exactly the way the undercover says, and they usually don't 277 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,920 Speaker 1: happen exactly the way the cops say. So the best 278 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: argument you could make is that okay, UM probably didn't 279 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: have to shoot him looking back on it, and I 280 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,719 Speaker 1: think that that's true, and somebody who was not a 281 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: cop would have dealt with us in a different way. 282 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: But the truth is that's what cops do. Cops see 283 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: a gun, see an armed suspect, and they will shoot 284 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: that armed suspect, whether they are in immediate danger or not. 285 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: You know, cops tend to shoot. But are we sure 286 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 1: Billy was an armed suspect? We asked Ron, if there's 287 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: any possibility that the gun wasn't Billy's. Any possibility is, 288 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: of course yes. To imagine that world, you would have 289 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: to imagine that the undercover carries with him a throwaway 290 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: gun or a gun to flake a suspect. And that's 291 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: a risky thing to do. And let's assume that this 292 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: detective is just such a bad, bad person that he 293 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: always walks around with an extra gun to plant on 294 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 1: somebody in case he he has to kill somebody. Is 295 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: that possible? Sure? And is it possible that, for reasons 296 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 1: that are utterly opaque, this relatively simple drug by from 297 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: a relatively low level drug seller went so wrong somehow 298 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: that the undercover decided he had to shoot him many 299 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: many times and then lie about it and lantic. Yeah, 300 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: that's all possible, But there's nothing to support that theory, 301 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: and everything to support the notion that fundamentally, in terms 302 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: of the way this all happened, the cop is telling 303 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: the truth. The only place that that he's he's lying, 304 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 1: I think, or or shadowing is just how much danger 305 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: he actually felt he was in at the time when 306 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: he withdrew his firearm and fired. You have undercover detective 307 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 1: who's giving a very straightforward story, and then you have 308 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: a guy who is in the hospital. He's charged with 309 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 1: attempted murder of a police officer as well as other things, 310 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 1: and then you know, tweeks later he dies the end. Sorry, absolutely, 311 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, It's fine. I get up and leave the room. Yeah. 312 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,360 Speaker 1: So wait, okay, so the rest of it we can 313 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: wait for I or what else, whatever you want to do. 314 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,439 Speaker 1: What I guess do you with with a reaction like 315 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: I have just had to this? Do you have experience 316 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: with clients where you're you take a case thinking that 317 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: it's like you were saying before, thinking it might be 318 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: a good case, and then realizing that it's not, and 319 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: then having to deal with the fallout from it with 320 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: other people. Is that your role is that? I mean 321 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: that that happens all the time. I mean, look, when 322 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: you have to break it to them that this was 323 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: you know, quote clean, shoot close quote, which is just 324 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: sort of a legal term, which means this was legally justified. 325 00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of It doesn't make it right, 326 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't make it this it shouldn't happen. It is unfair. 327 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: And all of these things that are that are totally true. 328 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: They exist in an absolutely true universe. And people know that. 329 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: But what they don't then understand is why they don't 330 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: have a case. And you know, the answer is that 331 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: the system is designed to make sure, under those circumstances 332 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: they don't have a case. I mean, the system embodies 333 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 1: structural violence. And and the most direct form of structural 334 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: violence is the police. And and so you know, how 335 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 1: many billy balls are you willing to allow to be 336 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: killed to make sure you are safe? And the answer 337 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: that most people give is just do whatever you need 338 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: to do. Judges, jurors, citizens, courts are always willing to say, well, 339 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: it's too bad, but that's what happens. You know, people 340 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: want to be kept safe, and part of that is 341 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: not second guessing every single thing the cops do. How 342 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: do you reconcile that that balance between keeping the public 343 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: safe and a system that embodies structural violence. I don't 344 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: reconcile it. It's your reconcilable. I actually just threw up bathrone. No, 345 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: I think I didn't expect that to happen. I know 346 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: you're interviewing me. But why is this a surprise or 347 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: a shock or a jarring sing? The mundanity of it 348 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: is really painful. You hope that the greatest tragedy in 349 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: somebody that you love as much as Sime getting so 350 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: emotionalless so intense. I'm sure you're used to this from people, 351 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: but you hope that the greatest tragedy in your mother's 352 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: life is something extraordinary. You hope that it's not something 353 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: as mundane as he was an idiot and hold a 354 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: gun on a cop. You hope that it's not a 355 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: narcotics detective want to go make a drug by and 356 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: probably wasn't even looking for him, probably was looking for 357 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: the guy higher up the chain, and he probably could 358 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: have gotten out of it if he was a little 359 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,959 Speaker 1: less irrational, a little less wild, and a little more 360 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: level headed, and if he hadn't pulled a gun, maybe 361 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: he could have flipped or whatever the fuck. But the 362 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: mundanity of it is just like makes me feel sick, 363 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: literally actually just made me sick. Are you thinking about 364 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: your mom and what interactions with her are going to be? Like, Yeah, 365 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: this is this is heavy. I'm thinking, Yeah, yeah, that's 366 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: gonna be really hard. And used to deliver. Right now, 367 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: I'm grappling with an idea that made me puke. What 368 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: if the story the guy in the cowboy hat told 369 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: is true? Then what then? What am I doing here? 370 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: Why did I dig all this ship up? Am I 371 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: just going to destroy the story my mom has told 372 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: herself to survive. I don't know what to do, but 373 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: I do know who I want to talk to about everything. 374 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: I mean, you're very close to the mica. There's one 375 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: person who knows the situation and my relationship with my 376 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: mom almost as well as I do. My name is 377 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: Seth till It and then I was father and Rebecca's 378 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: firstwhile lover. Yeah. Um, this is the police report from 379 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: the incident. Wow, I'm just gonna read you one piece 380 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: and then hand it to you. I show my dad 381 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: the police report. Oh my god, God, it makes everything 382 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: looks so tawdry and hopeless and like deadly. Jesus Christ, 383 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: promise me something. You never show this to Rebecca. Don't 384 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: do this. Why. I never thought there would be an 385 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: actual eyewitness report of what happened, and we have absolutely 386 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: no way of knowing whether that's true at all. Yeah, 387 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: next week on the ballot of Billy Balls. If somebody 388 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: who you thought was your life partner, your protector, you're 389 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: like soulmate, is viciously murdered, your grief is of a 390 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: different nature. It's not distinguishable from anger. It's rayging grief. 391 00:32:45,320 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: It's like slaughter. Everybody grief. Crimetown is Zach Stewart Pontier 392 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: and Mark Smirling. The Ballad of Billy Balls is hosted 393 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: by me Io till It Right and made in partnership 394 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: with Cadence thirteen. You can find me on the internet. 395 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: U Io loves you on everything. I love hearing from 396 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: you guys, and if you want to know more about 397 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: my story, pick up my memoir Darling Days. We also 398 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 1: want to hear from you. We have a voicemail set 399 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: up for you to call us here summer. I just 400 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: want to call and tell you guys, what's your podcast 401 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: means me. I had a couple of friends that were 402 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: brutally murdered. And you know, my friends weren't perfect, and 403 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: the media but trade them is almost like deserving or complacent. 404 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: It's just nice to people that care about what happens 405 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: to people that other people might not consider. Course that 406 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: just means a lot. Yeah, you know that's the point 407 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: of this whole thing. Nobody deserves to be forgotten. There's 408 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: something on your mind, or you have a story or 409 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: a joke, or thoughts of feelings, or complaints, whatever, call 410 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: us and leave us a voicemail at five seven oh 411 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: three nine two nine zero. You can also get into 412 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,240 Speaker 1: our discussion forum on our website, The Ballad of Billie 413 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: Balls dot Com, which this week I really think you 414 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: should do because now there is a lot to work with. 415 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: Go get your detective on. The show is produced by me, 416 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 1: Kevin Shepard, and Ryan Swicker. Our senior producer is my 417 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 1: Man Austin Mitchell, editing by Zach Stewart Pantier and Markus Smerling. 418 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: Fact checking by Jennifer Blackman. I See you, Jenny. This 419 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: episode was mixed by Sam Bear, sound design and music 420 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: by Kenny Qcat. Our title track is Dark Allies by 421 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: Light Asylum. The rest of their music is just as good, 422 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: Go listen to it. Archival researched by Brennan Reese. Special 423 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 1: thanks to Dan Yellow, Ariah Rachel Lee Wright, and Emily 424 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: Wiederman for putting up with us. Green Card Pictures, Alessandro 425 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: San Toro, Bill Plegg, Ben Davis or In Rosenbaum and 426 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 1: the team at Cadence thirteen, and, of course, as always, 427 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: my Mom, without whom none of this would be possible,