1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Unaddictioned the podcast. My name is doctor Enzinga Harrison. 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: I'm a board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: medicine and co founder and chief medical officer of Eleanor Health. 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead 5 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery. 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: have helped them along the way, and the formulas that 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time. 9 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: I am so excited to tell you about my book, Unaddictioned. 10 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: Six mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, is 11 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: now available from Union Square and Company, or wherever books 12 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: are sold. Hono Marie Cox is a political columnist for 13 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: The New Republic and a culture critic whose writing has 14 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: appeared in Sports Illustrated, The New York Times, NBC dot Com, 15 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: and The Cut, where she wrote a column called Sober, 16 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: questioning her upcoming whinmar Just Like Your Mother is an 17 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: account of addiction, recovery and intergenerational trauma which seeks to 18 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: answer the question why did my mother die of her addiction? 19 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,919 Speaker 1: But I was able to get sober. In this episode, 20 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:26,119 Speaker 1: we walked through her adverse childhood experiences also known as 21 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: aces and mental health difficulties, and how those can put 22 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: any of us at risk for developing addiction. Such an 23 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: honest and vulnerable conversation, I hope it'll touch you the 24 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: way it touched me. Yes, So I have an executive 25 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: coach and we're talking about shoulds really come out of 26 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: Like you decide the destination, it's X, and then when 27 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: you're on a journey it becomes clear to you you're 28 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: actually headed to why. You're like, should should should? Should? Should? 29 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: And he's like, when reality, this is the quote from 30 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: my executive coach in Zinga, it ain't never x okay. 31 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: And now this is my manta, it ain't never x okay. 32 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of truth to that. What 33 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 2: felt true in the conversation I was having with my 34 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 2: friend because we were talking about both being CPTSD survivors, 35 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 2: is there's a lot of unworthiness, Yes, that comes with that. 36 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 2: And I think for her and for me, should is 37 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 2: just always that version of ourselves we think we need 38 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: to be in order to be loved and accepted. Yeah, 39 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 2: and so every time we should it's like beating ourselves 40 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 2: up just a little men. And also I've discovered for me, 41 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,799 Speaker 2: it's a way of setting myself up to not do 42 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 2: stuff and to set and to perhaps create too many 43 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 2: things that I think I should do. I've been doing 44 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 2: a lot of healing real lately, and one of the 45 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 2: things I've realized is that I've spent a lot of 46 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 2: my life preparing and planning and goal setting and not 47 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 2: so much doing or accepting or resting. 48 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 1: It's a bit of always ahead of the moment as 49 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 1: compared to in the moment mindfulness. And sounds like you're 50 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: making a transition. Okay, So I'm going to use this 51 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: as a transition to officially jump us into this episode 52 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: because this is exactly where I want to go with it, 53 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: and I think this is exactly why we have the 54 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: podcast to help people understand what different journeys to recovery 55 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: look like, what the formula that you're working. And it 56 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: sounds like part of your formula is getting to that 57 00:03:54,680 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: being in this moment without judgment, which is not easy, right, 58 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: So can we just start with tell us who you are? 59 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: This is like the most, this is the most I'm 60 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: a psychiatrist to answer question, tell me who you are 61 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: and how you came to be? 62 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 3: Oh my god, I teach. 63 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 2: I teach interviewing classes and journalism programs every once in 64 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 2: a while. 65 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: And you're like, don't ever ask a question like that. 66 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 2: No, My cheat code is ask them how they came 67 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 2: to be the person they are. If you run into 68 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 2: a brick wall with somebody and they're like shutting down 69 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 2: or they won't answer, or your questions seem off or whatever, 70 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 2: sometimes how did you become the person that you are 71 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 2: is a way of because there's no simple answer. 72 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: Okay, so tell me. 73 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 2: Tell me who I am. I've avoided the question all 74 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 2: I'm the adult child of an alcoholic. I'm really good 75 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 2: at avoiding pople seeing me. I am Anno Marie Cox. 76 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 2: I am a journalist and writer and podcaster. And I 77 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 2: feel comfortable putting those things first, even though they're what 78 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 2: I do for money, because they are very essential to 79 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 2: who I am. 80 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 1: Oh okay, I want to click into that for sure. 81 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 2: I love stories. I love hearing other people's stories. I 82 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 2: love telling my story. I love my favorite thing about teaching. 83 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 2: I also teach about both teaching and journalism. This is 84 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 2: gonna be another parallel to psychology is when you see 85 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 2: that you've helped someone understand something like that light in 86 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 2: a student's eyes, when you've helped them kind of like 87 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 2: get to that click and they understand something they didn't 88 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 2: understand before, is the most satisfying thing that there is. 89 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 2: Second to that same feeling can come from writing. Sometimes 90 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 2: it doesn't come from like in writing. It's usually when 91 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: I know that I've hit it, but it's a more 92 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 2: interior thing because I haven't had feedback yet. But like 93 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 2: when I know I've like, yeah. 94 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: I was almost coming back to your second thing I 95 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 1: was going to say, I can imagine seeing that light 96 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: is also part of what's rewarding about telling your story, 97 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: and I want to start there because Yeah, this is 98 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: an addiction the podcast, and one of our main goals 99 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: is to uncover the conversations we need to be having. 100 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 1: People can be so afraid because of stigma, because of 101 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:07,720 Speaker 1: the things we think we know. People can be so 102 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: afraid of telling their story. But the freedom and the 103 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: joy of telling your story and seeing your story turn 104 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: the light on behind someone else's eyes, I think is incredible. 105 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: Is that part of what you experience when you tell your. 106 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it reminds me, you know, before I am 107 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 2: any of those things, I am an alcoholic in recovery, 108 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 2: and recovery is the center, or has to be, even 109 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 2: when I don't realize it's the center of my life, 110 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 2: even when my focus has shifted, if that makes any 111 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: sense at all. It is the center of my life 112 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 2: because without my sobriety, I in my connection to my 113 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 2: higher power, which I have. I have a higher power. 114 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 2: It's been helpful to me. I know, different people, different 115 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 2: things that I believe that I'm having. My spiritual connection, 116 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 2: my spiritual well being is the center of who I am, 117 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 2: and it is the thing that allows me to do 118 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 2: all the other things because without it, you know, I 119 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 2: lived for thirty eight years vamping, you know, like I guess, 120 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,239 Speaker 2: or you could put it in psychological terms like survival mode, 121 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 2: just trying to get by, just like trying to I 122 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 2: didn't get a lot of good instruction as a kid, 123 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 2: you know, a lot of good patterns, so I was 124 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 2: just like you know, and perfectionism and overachieving we're a 125 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 2: big part of that. And drinking and using drugs to 126 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 2: some extent also a big part of that. And that 127 00:08:55,679 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 2: was not sustainable for me and I also uh have 128 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 2: bipolar disorder too, and you know it's back. 129 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: Home as also or bipolar disorder type. 130 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 2: To type two. Okay, And that's a part of my story. Uh. 131 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 2: In fact, you can talk more about it. It's actually 132 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 2: a bigger part of my story than I kind of realized. Might. 133 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 2: My bottom as an alcoholic was a pretty serious suicide attempt. 134 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 2: And that is the thing that reminds me that less 135 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 2: I have my spiritual house in order, as they say 136 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 2: in AA, or unless I maintain my connection to my 137 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 2: higher power or spirit of the universe or higher self 138 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:51,679 Speaker 2: or whenever term you want to use, I will die. 139 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: The spakes are the highest. 140 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 2: One way or another, yep, I drink myself to death 141 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 2: like my mom it, or I will become so unhappy 142 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 2: and desperate and sad and lonely and hopeless, I might 143 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 2: take my own life. So it's a really good I 144 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 2: sometimes say I feel sorry for normal folks because they 145 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 2: don't have to have a spiritual life. They can just 146 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 2: like get along without it. Then I cannot. My life 147 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 2: depends on having some sort of space in my life 148 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:34,719 Speaker 2: for connection to something greater than myself. And maybe that 149 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,199 Speaker 2: gets us to talking about bipolar disorder. So I've been 150 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 2: sober for twelve years. Congratulation twelve years and six months 151 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,839 Speaker 2: and two days. Okay, because my belly button birthday is 152 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 2: six months away from my sobriety date, so I am 153 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 2: always very aware of the six month the path mark. 154 00:10:54,640 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 2: And I took to a like it was, you know, 155 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 2: I just loved it. I fell in love. I've been 156 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 2: out in and out before. But then I went to 157 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 2: treatment and I was really resistant at first, and then 158 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 2: I kind of made a deal with myself, which is like, 159 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 2: I have not been this is not I have not 160 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 2: come up with something, and this seems to work for 161 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 2: some people, and so I'll give it a shot. And 162 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 2: because I am a type a perfectionist, overachieving person, I 163 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 2: kind of made a deal with myself that I would 164 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 2: do it like they said, perfectly, and if it didn't work, 165 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 2: I can always drink or kill myself. It's a deal, 166 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 2: like I have to give it a real shot, sort 167 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 2: of like your parents saying, like take a bite and 168 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 2: if you don't like it, then you can, you know, 169 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 2: not eat it, but you have to like have to try, 170 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 2: have to be honest. And so I did the things 171 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 2: that they said and you know, even when it came 172 00:11:57,800 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 2: to praying, I remember telling my counselor like, I don't 173 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 2: really this feels really dumb because I'm not sure what 174 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 2: I believe and I don't think anyone is listening. And 175 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 2: she was like, doesn't matter, do it anyway? And I 176 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 2: found a reading not then, but I think later that 177 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 2: pointed out something that's been important to me since, which is, 178 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 2: we don't if you believe in a higher power. But 179 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 2: even if you don't, praying is not about letting the 180 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,319 Speaker 2: higher power know what you want. If it's a higher power, 181 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 2: if it's all knowing omnip in it, that thing already knows. 182 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 2: We pray to hear ourselves ask And I think it's 183 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 2: a good gut check on what I'm asking for. Is 184 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 2: it something I want or something I need? Is it selfish? 185 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 2: And it's also a form of meditation. So even if 186 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 2: you don't believe, like it's a good way of being 187 00:12:54,600 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 2: reminded of kind of a Buddhist like you are powerless, 188 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 2: you are a thing. You are a person who wants 189 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 2: things that the universe has different ideas sometimes And so 190 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 2: whatever I loved AA, I stayed sober. So that was 191 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 2: That's sort of what happened is I did what they 192 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 2: said and I stayed sober, and I didn't hate myself, 193 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 2: so I kept doing it. And also AA is you know, 194 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 2: for again type a person. I liked knowing that I 195 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 2: was doing something extra, Like I'm an extra person, right, 196 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 2: So for me like AA, like I always go to meetings, 197 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 2: I always have searge position, I always have a sponsor, 198 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 2: like I do the deal, as they say, And you know, 199 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 2: part of that is because I do believe that my 200 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 2: life is on the line. And part of that, I 201 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 2: think over the years became I started to think of 202 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 2: sobriety as a thing that I did, as a thing 203 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 2: I was rewarded with for doing AA perfectly. 204 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: Even twelve years later, you're still working your AA program, 205 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: And the question I wanted to ask was are you 206 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:08,359 Speaker 1: doing it perfectly? 207 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 2: So here's where this is recent news and revelations for me. 208 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 2: You know, I said all the right things and meetings there, 209 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: but for the grace of God go I like, you know, 210 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 2: one day at a time. And it's not like I 211 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 2: didn't believe those things, but I do believe that. Like 212 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 2: when someone would share that they relapsed, there was a 213 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 2: part of me that was like, well, you're not working 214 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 2: as good a program as I am, you know, like, sorry, 215 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 2: that's terrible. I'm an alcoholic too, right, And then last 216 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 2: month I had a manic episode, the first one I've 217 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 2: had since I got sober. And I will not get 218 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 2: into why it happened because part of what I've come 219 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 2: to realize is it doesn't matter. And also I'll never 220 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 2: really know. I have suspicions it has to do with 221 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 2: the meds and you know, other stuff. But what I 222 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 2: had to come am coming to accept is I thought 223 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 2: about my mental illness kind of the same way, which 224 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 2: is that if I take care of it perfectly, then 225 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 2: I will never have another manic episode. I'm kind of 226 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 2: like I still get depressed, but and that, as you know, 227 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 2: like depression is always a bigger problem for people with 228 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 2: bipolar disorder. Yeah, and I've had treatment resistant depression, but 229 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 2: I haven't had a manic. But I haven't had a 230 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 2: full medic episode. I've had times where I. 231 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: Felt walking up the curve, but not all the way 232 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: they are. 233 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I always also know what to do, like 234 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 2: exercise more, eat right, sleep, you know, meditate, And I 235 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 2: really thought I was managing my bipolar disorder, and kind 236 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 2: of the same way I was managing my addiction, which 237 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 2: is like, all right, perfectly, good job, you know, yeah, 238 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 2: way to go, Like you're going to be set, You're 239 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 2: never going to relapse, You're never gonna have a manic 240 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 2: you know, like manic episode. And then I had one. 241 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: And can you just tell the listeners Everyone may not 242 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: know what it's like to have a manic episode, if 243 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: you're if you're comfortable with it, what it was like 244 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: for you. 245 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 2: Oh god, it's hard to describe. And if you're not comfortable, 246 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 2: I can try, because I want people to know it's 247 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 2: you are not yourself. It is and you can interject 248 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 2: with your knowledge. But it's kind of like being psychotic. 249 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 2: It's it is not my personality. It is a version 250 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 2: of me that even I found myself saying and doing 251 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 2: things that like I was angrier and more self pitying 252 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 2: and more impulsive and we're eight like bolder, and I 253 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 2: inside was there was a part of me that was 254 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 2: like what the fuck, Like what is going on? 255 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: Huh? 256 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 2: Like this is not you like. 257 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: And other people also notice this is not you. 258 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 2: Like, well yeah, because it's part of it. I actually 259 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 2: it was a more extreme manic episode that I've ever had. 260 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 2: I think because I wasn't drinking. I think because there 261 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 2: was no alcohol to like, oh, just put a lid 262 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 2: on it. Put a lid on it. So like I 263 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: had times my thoughts were racing so fast I could 264 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 2: barely speak like and that also had never really happened 265 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 2: to that degree. And it is it is. I remember 266 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 2: having kind of a thought within a thought, which is 267 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 2: that if this doesn't stop, I will be creepy, I 268 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 2: will lose it, I will lose my mind, I will 269 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 2: never come back, I will not be able to function 270 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 2: in the world. And like there are parts of it, 271 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 2: there are parts of it I don't remember, you know, 272 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 2: I kind of lost like a week and a half 273 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 2: two weeks in my life. I hurt some people with 274 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 2: my actions just not being people try to help and 275 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 2: be pushing away and like being not graceful about it 276 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 2: and being then being self like asking for help and 277 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 2: rejecting it then acting out. Then I had told people 278 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 2: I didn't have sex with anyone, I didn't overspend, and 279 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 2: I didn't drink, so all in all, it's a win. 280 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 1: Those would be classic manic symptoms. 281 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 2: So didn't do any of that, and I've had a 282 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 2: lot of I mean, I have, you know, created a 283 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 2: life where I had a lot of like good safety 284 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 2: net stuff you know around me. I kept in touch 285 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 2: with my therapist, I kept in touch with my psychiatrists. I 286 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 2: think for a manic episode, I handled it kind of 287 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 2: the best case you can h but it happened, and 288 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 2: I was powerless to not have it happened. And I'm realizing, 289 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 2: you know a few things. One of them is that 290 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 2: I thought I had accepted my diagnoses in the same 291 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 2: way that I'd accepted my addiction and alcoholism, and that 292 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 2: you know, it's just a part of me, it's who 293 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 2: I am. Not ashamed. Yeah, I don't think i'd fully 294 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 2: like accepted. 295 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, because after you had the manic episode, did you 296 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: feel shame or what brought you to this like realization 297 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: I have not actually accepted this. I felt a lot 298 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: of shame and as an illness I have. 299 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I felt a lot of shame. And you know, 300 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 2: the damage I did to my relationships and it for 301 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 2: me has underscored well. For one thing, it felt a 302 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 2: lot like a relapse. I'm treating it a little bit 303 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 2: like a relapse in the way that I think about 304 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 2: it and the way that I'm handling it, Like I've 305 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 2: kind of been going to more meetings. I've been drawing 306 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 2: on the resources of my friends who are also sober 307 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 2: and people who've been sober longer than I am. And 308 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 2: much like with a relapse, I am trying to not 309 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 2: go around on an apology tour and instead just get better. 310 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 2: But that's what people want for me. As much as 311 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 2: I would like to be forgiven, that's what I would like. 312 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 2: I would like people to tell me it's okay, we understand, 313 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 2: but I can't control that. 314 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it's exactly right to look at 315 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: it as a relapse because that's what it was. So 316 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: in medicine, when we have chronic conditions, we call them 317 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: relapsing and remitting, meaning when you're not having symptoms of 318 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: that illness, it's in remission. And when symptoms of that 319 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: illness recur, like you said, can be brought on by 320 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: any number of biological, psychological, life stressors, all sorts of things, 321 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: that is a relapse. And so, like one of my 322 00:20:53,119 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 1: soapboxes is that people don't relapse illnesses relapse. One of 323 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 1: the things I love about AA and in A is 324 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 1: this concept of learning from the relapse. What do I 325 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: take from this that I can learn that either helps 326 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: me prevent the next one, or make the next one shorter, 327 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: or decrease the severity of the next one, or understand 328 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 1: what contributed to it. And so I think approaching it 329 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: that way with that learning. And then I also think 330 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: you said what I would want is for people to 331 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: forgive me. I think there's some self forgiveness work here too. 332 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 4: Well. 333 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 2: One of the things I love about AA, and I 334 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 2: mean I genuine it's just a I mean, there are 335 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 2: so many flaws, huge flaws, you know, started by two 336 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 2: rich white guys, and that is its legacy, right, Like 337 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 2: it's built, it's baked in and it's going to take 338 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 2: years and years and years of work to unbake that. 339 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 2: I think it's possible. 340 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,640 Speaker 1: But and I think on baking is in progress. 341 00:21:57,800 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 2: I do too. I've seen it. Yeah, I have seen 342 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 2: it for sure. I have seen meetings that are people 343 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 2: of color specific meetings. So we're women's meetings, so we're 344 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 2: queer meetings, so we're men's meetings. 345 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 1: Young people meetings. So you know, I'm loving it, you 346 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: know what, Like that's right, Yeah, you don't have to 347 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 1: kick people off the island. But it is important to 348 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: have safe spaces, right, and so this is actually the 349 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: premise of AA is a safe space. 350 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 2: So women who might feel comfortable having a first step 351 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 2: meeting with this man who feels like he might drink today, 352 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 2: let's do it. You guys, go have your first step meeting. 353 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 2: That's right, and we will continue with our women's meeting. 354 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 1: That's right. 355 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 2: You know, that's right. Both and yeah, both and anyway, 356 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 2: so yeah, in you know, uh, I just think I 357 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 2: have a lot of humility, I should say, I hope 358 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 2: I have a lot more humility about how my program 359 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 2: is not perfect and the reason I haven't relapsed well 360 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 2: for me has to do with grace from the universe. 361 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 2: So let's go. 362 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: Let's go there, Anna Marie. Because what I really want 363 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 1: people to hear, I think there are so many podcasts 364 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: about the devastation of addiction and we have to have 365 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: that conversation. And I want this one to literally be 366 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: giving people ideas. Everybody's formula is not for you, but 367 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 1: there might be a piece of this formula. There might 368 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: be a piece of that person's formula. There might be 369 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: a piece of that person's formula that comes together to 370 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,479 Speaker 1: make your formula, and so I would love to spend 371 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: time on the universe and spirituality as part of your formula. 372 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: How does it show up in your life every day? 373 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: And how do you That was kind of like a 374 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 1: passive question. I want to be like active about it. 375 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: How do you make sure it's showing up in your 376 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: life every day? 377 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,479 Speaker 2: So it's changed. I think it shows up every day, 378 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 2: whether or not I acknowledge it, okay, And again that's 379 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 2: sort of what has changed because of this this manic episode, 380 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 2: I think is that you know, I thought I was 381 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 2: keeping myself sober by doing all this great work. But 382 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 2: you know what, there have been times in in the 383 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 2: past twelve years, right skipped meetings, there have been times 384 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 2: when I haven't had a sponsor. There have been times 385 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 2: when I haven't had sponsores. There have been times that 386 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 2: I like blew off, you know whatever. And also there 387 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 2: have been times probably when everything came together and lined 388 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 2: up in a way that I might have had a drink, 389 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 2: that I was having a bad day and I was 390 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 2: traveling and airports used to be a thing for me, 391 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 2: and the smell came and I could have done it. 392 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 2: There's like this far away. Yeah, and the universe stepped 393 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 2: in and that's what's kept me sober. I can keep 394 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 2: myself sober on a day to day basis. I do 395 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 2: believe that that I haven't kept myself sober for twelve years. 396 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 2: And this is all I've been joking that this is 397 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 2: like a very complicated version of the when there was 398 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 2: one set of footprints, that's when I was carrying you. 399 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, for real. First of all, is like when 400 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 1: I was a kid, my mom used to read that 401 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: poem to us and we actually had it on the 402 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: wall with the one set of footprints. It's a good 403 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: one and the two set of first it's a good one. 404 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 2: It just yes, it's time basically, Like that's kind of 405 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 2: where I feel like I'm it's dawning on me and 406 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 2: I'm still kind of processing and accepting it. Is that. Yeah, 407 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 2: that my higher power, and I will use the word God, 408 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 2: and God's grace has carried me a lot more than 409 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 2: I realized. 410 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, why does it make you terierry? 411 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 2: Because I do believe in infinite forgiveness, and you know, 412 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 2: I happen to be a Christian. But one of the 413 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 2: reasons I'm a Christian is I was in recovery first, 414 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 2: and the story of Jesus like blows me away the 415 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 2: idea of redemption. Just it's yours half it here. You 416 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 2: don't have to do anything. You are forgiven. You don't 417 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 2: have to ben have to be perfect, you don't have 418 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 2: to do anything, you don't have to say anything. I 419 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 2: have just given you. The universe has just presented you 420 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 2: with this eternal forgiveness, unconditional love, and it is yours 421 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 2: to accept. All you have to do is accept it. 422 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 2: And also, like I'm kind of a CS Lewis Christian. 423 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 2: I don't think that people who don't know about Christianity, 424 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 2: Like I'm not a hell person and I'm not a 425 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 2: person who thinks you have to be a Christian to 426 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 2: accept this grace and goodness. Like I think that it 427 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 2: literally is for everyone. I think it is to say, 428 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 2: like the metaphor heres, you know, someone died for our sins, 429 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 2: But what it means is just this infinite grace, infinite Yeah. 430 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 2: And you know, sometimes I forget that I have that, 431 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 2: that it is mine, if I want it, it is yours. Yeah, 432 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 2: and that I've been given it and used to it 433 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 2: sometimes even without knowing it. And that's the footprints thing right. 434 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: It's beautiful. It's beautiful, and I think especially I heard 435 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: you mentioned CPTSD. Your mom died of alcoholism. I'm so 436 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 1: sorry to hear about that. I think all of the 437 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: ways we make people with addiction feel like that grace 438 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,360 Speaker 1: is not theirs. Yeah, all of the ways we make 439 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: people with addiction feel like they don't deserve that grace. 440 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: They don't hold the same value as other people that 441 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: don't have bipolar disorder, that don't have alcohol use disorder. 442 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 1: They don't whatever. I can't come up with this next sentence, 443 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: but it is always like you don't. You don't write 444 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: people with you know. 445 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,679 Speaker 2: You know, sexual harms in their history, people who have 446 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 2: yes those things, because AA is full of people who 447 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 2: at one point or another were either preyed upon or 448 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 2: were predators. But grace is for everyone, like grace, and 449 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,439 Speaker 2: you can use whatever like I know people, you know, 450 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 2: I'm very also aware that Christianity has caused a lot 451 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: of harm over to people, and so I really try 452 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 2: to be generous with the words that I use around this, 453 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 2: and you can kind of come up with whatever creative 454 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 2: ways you want. But I believe the universe existence life 455 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,400 Speaker 2: like that it is, there is no there, No one 456 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 2: is holding a grudge against us except us. 457 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: M Wait say that again for me, Anna Marie, I 458 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: felt that in my. 459 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 2: Soul no one is holding a grudge against us except us. 460 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 2: I am the only person holding a grudge against me. 461 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 2: The universe, you could even think of it as an 462 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 2: uncaring universe if you want, right, but I think if 463 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 2: it as a benevolent universe, a higher power, spirit, something 464 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 2: beyond my understanding. And that that is grace, that is 465 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 2: just there. That is again there, whether I know it 466 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 2: or not, whether I want it or not. Yes, but 467 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 2: the joy of recovery is noubing it. 468 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. 469 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 2: And I get to know that. I get to know that. 470 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 2: Earlier in my recovery, I think I was more aware 471 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 2: of this. I used to tell this story, and I'm 472 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 2: now like, oh, yeah, that story, which is that I 473 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 2: am so fortunate to be in recovery and to experience 474 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 2: that grace. Because other people have miracles in their lives. 475 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 2: You know a time when they almost got sick but didn't, 476 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 2: a time when you know, the bus driver breaked for 477 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 2: the light just in time. You know a child you know, 478 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 2: born healthy and not whatever like I do. Believe like 479 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 2: everyone has kind of miracles in their lives. I know 480 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 2: what my miracle is. My miracle is that I'm sober today. 481 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 2: My miracle is that I'm forgiven and I get to 482 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 2: know that and other people they can know it, you know, 483 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 2: Like that's what gratitude. Practicing gratitude is and also practice 484 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 2: of meditation, practice of mindfulness. That is a way to 485 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 2: know what I think your miracles are. Yeah, but you know, 486 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 2: I have a real like, I have a real good one. 487 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 2: And now I guess my experience with this bipolar thing 488 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 2: is actually what I should amend it to is I 489 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 2: have a miracle every day even if I didn't stay sober. 490 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: That's what I was thinking about, Anna Marie, because even 491 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: when you said airports used to be a thing, right, 492 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: it used to be a trigger. And there was a 493 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 1: stressful day and you're away from home and you're traveling, 494 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: you don't have your support system, and the smell comes 495 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: that you didn't drink that day is a miracle. We 496 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: tend to think of miracles as having to be these big, 497 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: humongous things. Those are the ones we can recognize. 498 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 3: Well, that is a big humongous thing, exactly every single 499 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 3: day these big, humongous things are happening for us. 500 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 2: If you think about it existence as a miracle, right, Like, 501 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 2: so even if I did drink, I got a miracle. 502 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 2: And that's the thing that I love that person, and 503 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 2: that's the thing that I think has been missing from 504 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 2: my recovery and been missing and been a missing piece 505 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 2: of the humility that I want to practice. Is that 506 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 2: sobriety isn't the miracle. I mean, it is a miracle 507 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 2: mmm mm hmmm, but it's not the only one I get. Mmm. 508 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 2: Like perhaps even there's an infinite number of miracles. Maybe 509 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 2: I've used to say I'm lucky because I get to 510 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 2: know what my miracle is, but there's no way of 511 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 2: knowing really how many miracles I have today. 512 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is this is the point of the podcast 513 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: that it's so funny. One of the things I say 514 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: is like, they're an infinite number of paths to addiction, 515 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: and so they are an infinite number of paths to recovery. 516 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: And this is you used those exact words. They're an 517 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,479 Speaker 1: infinite number of miracles, right, And so this is what 518 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: I want from the listeners. It's like, if this is 519 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: calling inside your spirit and feels like a warm blanket. 520 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: Take this as part of your formula. If it's not, 521 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: that is perfectly fine. You're like some of it, not 522 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: all of it. Take some of it. 523 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 2: Take what you need and leave the rest. Is what 524 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 2: we say in AA. 525 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: Take what you need and leave. 526 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 2: So I can be kind of defensive about it AA 527 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 2: because I do love it so much, and I do 528 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 2: feel like there's a lot of grace built into it 529 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 2: for people that have problems with it. 530 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: Uh huh. 531 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 2: I will just take what you need to leave the rest, 532 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 2: even if that means, like you know, saying fuck AA. Fine, 533 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 2: you know, like. 534 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be yours, right, like AA doesn't 535 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: have to be yours, but find something that is yours. 536 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: That's the that's I. 537 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 2: Do believe that some kind of meditative or spiritual practice 538 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 2: is pretty essential to recovery. I actually say I've boiled 539 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 2: it down my theory community service reflection. 540 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 3: Mm hmm, okay, click us in can't get sober alone, 541 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 3: wear pack animal, and you need other people to share 542 00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 3: the load. 543 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 2: You need to hear other people's story. You need to 544 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 2: share your story. So that's the community piece, right, Like 545 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 2: we meet together and we forgive each other and we 546 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 2: can't forgive ourselves. We love each other and we can't 547 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 2: love ourselves. I love all twelve step programs. I'm also 548 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 2: in Adult Children of Alcoholics, which actually, like I love 549 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 2: even more than a. 550 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:18,719 Speaker 4: It's such. 551 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 2: It's a trauma inform program before they were trauma inform programs. 552 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 2: It's amazing. Like, so I love it too. 553 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. 554 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 2: So I love that I can walk into a meeting 555 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 2: of a twelve step meeting and bear my soul and 556 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 2: those people love me. And it doesn't mean that they're 557 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 2: gonna like hug me, because I actually don't like hug 558 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 2: Those mean they're gonna like talk to me or we 559 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 2: go out for coffee afterwards. It's different. It's just love. 560 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 2: It's just it's unconditional. Yeah, that's why some people say 561 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 2: you can make the group your higher power. Right. So, community, 562 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 2: I think is really important, and it's a community of 563 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 2: shared goal community right shared we're all trying to do 564 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 2: this together. Service I think is very important because it 565 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 2: gets you outside yourself and also it can be a 566 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 2: really good way to cement community. I know I'm a 567 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 2: good talker, but I'm also an introvert and I have 568 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 2: trouble with the meeting before the meeting, and the meeting 569 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 2: after the meeting. H I hate small talk. I'm really 570 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,439 Speaker 2: good at going deep. I'm not so good at like 571 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 2: just chatting. And to do service work in the community 572 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,800 Speaker 2: is a way to meet people and talk to people 573 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 2: and have a shared understanding and also to get outside yourself. 574 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. 575 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm always blessed by the people that ask me 576 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 2: about sobriety, Like that is the gift to me, to 577 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,879 Speaker 2: ask me about how I did it. It's a gift 578 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 2: for me to hear their stories. And that's service to 579 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 2: hear someone else's story, to tell your story as a 580 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,880 Speaker 2: form of service. I also think in this political climate 581 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 2: that service is powerful because you can do I believe 582 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,319 Speaker 2: that activism is service too. I believe like going and 583 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 2: joining ours with my fellow humans to ask for things 584 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 2: that we all deserve is a service. But also I 585 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,920 Speaker 2: believe that doing service in AA puts me in contact 586 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 2: or in some other non political context, puts me in 587 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,760 Speaker 2: contact with people who maybe I would not always agree with. 588 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, but and finds the point of commonality. 589 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 2: So and that is great for reaching beyond like the 590 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 2: circle of recovery, right, like just connecting you to the 591 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 2: larger universe, and also working on humility and working on 592 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:31,760 Speaker 2: resentment yep. 593 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:32,399 Speaker 1: Yeah. 594 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:36,320 Speaker 2: And then the spiritual or meditative practice of reflection, because 595 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,840 Speaker 2: I think we can't get sober without having a sober 596 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 2: accounting of who we are, a non judgmental acceptance, and 597 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,320 Speaker 2: I think that's something that's been missing for me quite frankly, 598 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 2: like this is what this incident has shown, is that 599 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 2: I've been doing self examination and stopping not opening a 600 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 2: certain door, cleaning out a lot of closets. Ah yeah, 601 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 2: but not that closet, not that one, uh huh, you know, 602 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 2: and maybe some other ones. These all kind of I 603 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 2: think build on each other, by the way, in this order, 604 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 2: because I think that self reflection and meditative practice. The 605 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,280 Speaker 2: meditative practice you can do right away, but the reflection 606 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 2: requires some foundation work or sure, because to get back 607 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 2: to like the I want forgiveness from my friends. Something 608 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 2: we talk about in AA all the time is that 609 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 2: amends are not forgiveness, and also forgiveness. You can't ask 610 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 2: for forgiveness unless you've forgiven yourself, because you're then you're 611 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 2: asking for something that's really freighted. You're you're putting a 612 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 2: burden on the person you ask you're saying I need 613 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 2: this from you. 614 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. 615 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 2: I need you to forgive me. And actually this is 616 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,319 Speaker 2: a social justice thing too, right, Yes, to go to 617 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 2: a reparation exactly where I was going. 618 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 1: Which is it like. 619 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 5: To be like, okay, here, you know here gear doo, 620 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 5: we built a museum, we're doing some stuff over here, 621 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 5: we have a diversity and equity group. 622 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 2: We're changing our hiring practices. Now give us a cookie, 623 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 2: give us a forgive us our for goiveness, give us 624 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,879 Speaker 2: our white liberal merit rage. 625 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 1: That yeah, and then can we just be done? 626 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 2: Can we beline right? Like then we can just like okay, 627 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 2: we're done. 628 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:38,840 Speaker 1: It's all fixed, it's all fixed. 629 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 2: That's all done fixed. And in some ways, like you know, 630 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,399 Speaker 2: like white people have to atone and have to take 631 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 2: a real self inventory about this and come to some 632 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 2: kind of reckoning. Maybe not full self forgiveness, maybe that's 633 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 2: really hard, but you can't be asking for a bit 634 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 2: for someone else, like you have to at least have 635 00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 2: the awareness that this is a burden that you've we 636 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 2: you ask for forgiveness, you're creating a burden on someone. 637 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: This is one I could talk to you all day, 638 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:08,479 Speaker 1: except we're getting to the top. 639 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 2: Well, I think recovery is a really good framework for 640 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:11,280 Speaker 2: social justice. 641 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: Yes one. I mean the overlap is it's like not 642 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: even overlap, like the same. Yeah, it's the same. 643 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 2: It is a lot about like so acceptance and again 644 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 2: sort of like community service. 645 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: Reflection, reflection. 646 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:29,719 Speaker 2: Absolutely, so I want to just finish up on that 647 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,720 Speaker 2: part about not asking for forgiveness, which gets us around 648 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 2: to grace right like that is where I have my 649 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:44,240 Speaker 2: work to do right now and dealing with my manic 650 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 2: episode as a form of relapse. My work right now 651 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:53,880 Speaker 2: is to accept grace and also to accept that I 652 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 2: can be okay no matter what else happens. That I 653 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 2: don't need a specific scenario. I don't need my friends. 654 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:02,799 Speaker 2: I think they will. I think I'm making a big 655 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 2: deal out of this kind of like I think they're 656 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,320 Speaker 2: probably just asking for some time out. But it was 657 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 2: hard for them to see me do this. It's an 658 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,799 Speaker 2: opportunity for me to realize that as good as it 659 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 2: feels to have connection to any individual person, right it 660 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:24,799 Speaker 2: is the more mystical connection and the connection to the group. Again, 661 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 2: if you want to make the hight group your higher power, 662 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 2: that is the one that really feeds me, and that's 663 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 2: just hard to believe sometimes, and that's why I get 664 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 2: terary thinking about it. 665 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, we get taught like don't 666 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: let your tears fall down your face. And so I'm 667 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:48,280 Speaker 1: really grateful to you for letting us hear your tears 668 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:54,240 Speaker 1: on here, because I think it's just you cry because 669 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,839 Speaker 1: it's magnificent and beautiful and powerful and huge and miraculous. 670 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 1: That's worth tears saying. 671 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 2: And I cry over the woman in me that has 672 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,840 Speaker 2: trouble accepting it, Like I just want to tell that 673 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:13,839 Speaker 2: child and me, it's okay, you can have this, you 674 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 2: can have this good thing. 675 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:19,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so I usually I'm gonna close us out. 676 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,439 Speaker 1: The name of the book is Unaddiction, and we made 677 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,439 Speaker 1: up the word unaddictioned six mind changing conversations that could 678 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 1: save a life, and we made up an addiction to 679 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: be like, what are the things we need to unlearn? 680 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: What are the stigmas we need to undo? What are 681 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:41,279 Speaker 1: the conversations we need to uncover? And so if there 682 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 1: was one thing about recovery or about addiction that you 683 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,360 Speaker 1: want to leave people with, that you want them to unlearn, 684 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: or this stigma you want us to be proactively undoing 685 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: or this conversation you want us to be uncovering, what 686 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 1: would you leave us with? 687 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,919 Speaker 2: I think in some ways, like when I think about 688 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 2: what loved ones when I loved ones are always I 689 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 2: get more questions from loved ones of addicts and alcoholics, 690 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 2: of course, than I get from actual addics alcoholics, And 691 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 2: so I'm thinking of them what I would like to 692 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,399 Speaker 2: transplant into those brains, And sometimes I forget it myself 693 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,319 Speaker 2: because I'm also the loved one of alcoholics. Right, is 694 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 2: that you are actually the person in. 695 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 4: The worst position to help, Oh wow, because you love 696 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,799 Speaker 4: you love so much, and because you already have connections, 697 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 4: and you want. 698 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,320 Speaker 2: And probably and what you want is the old person 699 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 2: back or what things to be like they were before, 700 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:56,920 Speaker 2: which is completely understandable and human and also not helpful 701 00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,399 Speaker 2: for the person who's trying to figure out out who 702 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 2: they are moving forward, who may be a little bit different. 703 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 1: Yeah. 704 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:07,960 Speaker 2: And also there's no way that your love can't come 705 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 2: with strengths attached, because we're human again, human, My love 706 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 2: for my atticts has strings attached. Yeah. And so the 707 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,840 Speaker 2: most generous thing you can do is to try and 708 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 2: create a boundary so that that person can get the 709 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,040 Speaker 2: help that they need from the people who can help them, 710 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,879 Speaker 2: which are the people who can give unconditional love, which 711 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 2: is usually in the rooms of some program of some place. 712 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 2: Like I was saying, like, I can walk into any 713 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:44,879 Speaker 2: kind of twelve step meeting and get that in conditional love. 714 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 2: And that's the love that can provide a structure and 715 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 2: foundation and support for someone in early recovery. That of 716 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 2: course you love that person. Of course there's individual like 717 00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,440 Speaker 2: I have specific pieces of advice about how you can 718 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,840 Speaker 2: support a love wanting for recovery. They generally have to 719 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:03,480 Speaker 2: do with like just make it easy for them to 720 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:09,520 Speaker 2: not drink, like or use or whatever. But you unfortunately, 721 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 2: it's a it's a humility thing too. You perhaps need 722 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,440 Speaker 2: to come to terms with the fact that as you 723 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,400 Speaker 2: may have brought this person into the world, but that 724 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:25,799 Speaker 2: you are powerless over their disease. And yeah, and that 725 00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 2: there is such a thing as loving detachment and it sucks. 726 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,319 Speaker 2: And a lot of people I think criticize convention, like 727 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:37,480 Speaker 2: criticize you know, AA and some recovery and some clinical 728 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 2: talk because they think that that's tough love, and it 729 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 2: is not tough. It is not It is you can 730 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,799 Speaker 2: support your heart out right. It's just figuring out what 731 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:50,920 Speaker 2: that boundary is between. 732 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:51,680 Speaker 1: What that supported. 733 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:57,360 Speaker 2: Yeah and love, love your heart out right in some 734 00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,959 Speaker 2: way you have that. This has to be what happen 735 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 2: to me. My friends. Actually this is a good parallel again, 736 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 2: back when I got sober, my friends are kind of like, yeah, 737 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:07,360 Speaker 2: you need. 738 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:14,560 Speaker 1: Like we're dead and lovingly I love you, and also 739 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:16,280 Speaker 1: you need something more. 740 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,360 Speaker 2: Than I can give you, and I had to turn 741 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:24,399 Speaker 2: to other things and thank god, thank god, literally thank 742 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,680 Speaker 2: god they were there. So that is kind of what 743 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:28,200 Speaker 2: I would say to loved ones. I mean, what I 744 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,319 Speaker 2: would say to someone who's early on or thinking about 745 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 2: getting sober, is you can it is. The miracle is 746 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:34,759 Speaker 2: available to you. 747 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 1: It is yours. 748 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:37,560 Speaker 2: It is yours. 749 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 1: I have. 750 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,080 Speaker 2: Every single person has it, has it available to them, 751 00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 2: and it is just a matter of finding that path, 752 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:50,800 Speaker 2: finding which miracle you want to accept. 753 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:57,200 Speaker 1: I love that so much. Autum Marie, despite the microphone's 754 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 1: best intentions, this will be you heard. Thank you, I 755 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,600 Speaker 1: hear you. Thank you so so much. 756 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:12,040 Speaker 2: This was wonderful, very theory. You touched my heart therapeutic 757 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:13,879 Speaker 2: for me. You know, it's funny. I used to kind 758 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,080 Speaker 2: of wave off that kind of compliment because for me, 759 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,879 Speaker 2: like again kind of adult child of alcoholic, like kind 760 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:24,719 Speaker 2: of like, oversharing is my thing, but it's funny. I'm 761 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:29,560 Speaker 2: writing a memoir and in the notes section of my manuscript, 762 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:31,840 Speaker 2: like which shows all the time up in the corner, 763 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:38,760 Speaker 2: is a trauma response can also be a superpower? Yes, yes, 764 00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,320 Speaker 2: and so yeah, like I may feel like sometimes oversharing 765 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:45,200 Speaker 2: is my trauma response and I get a little embarrassed 766 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,279 Speaker 2: about it, But then again, it can be a superpower too, 767 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,680 Speaker 2: And some people can't do this, some people can't talk 768 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 2: the way that I talk. 769 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 1: We are Thank you so much for tuning in, and 770 00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:00,320 Speaker 1: if you like this episode, please check out my book 771 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:05,360 Speaker 1: An Addiction, Six mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, 772 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:10,880 Speaker 1: available at Barnesennoble Bookshop dot Org, Union Squaring Company, Amazon, 773 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,680 Speaker 1: and wherever books are sold. If you like to this episode, 774 00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:17,640 Speaker 1: please share it with someone you think may need to 775 00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:21,680 Speaker 1: hear it. Also, please subscribe to this podcast and leave 776 00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,520 Speaker 1: a five star review that helps us reach any and 777 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,320 Speaker 1: everyone who may be looking for support in the face 778 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:27,840 Speaker 1: of addiction.