1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: Oh boy, podcasts, which one is this? Robert now, Sophie. 2 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: Scholars have debated for years how to tell what podcast 3 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: you're introducing when you're introducing your podcast. Um, and I 4 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: think I hold with Robert Sapolski of Stanford University when 5 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: he said it is impossible to know the name or 6 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: the hour of the podcast that you host, Sophie. This 7 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: is Behind the Bastards. Our guests day is the lovely 8 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. Hi, Bridget, Hello, I'm so happy to be 9 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: here with y'all. I'm happy to have you here. How 10 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: are you doing today, Bridget? I am doing well. I 11 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: am in d C, where it is hot as balls. 12 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: It's like still winter here basically, so it's like sixty 13 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: and rainy, which is dope. But I remember you and 14 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: I met in DC when it was hot as balls. 15 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: That's right, the swamp as they say, it's hot as 16 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: balls in Los Angeles to it too, So yeah, it's 17 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: hot as balls everywhere, but where I am. And now, Bridget, 18 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: you're an East Coast girl, that's right, born in Bread 19 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: Uh huh, that's now. How do you? How do you? 20 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: How do you? How do you? How do you like 21 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: the Big Apple? The New the New of York's. Oh 22 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: I love New York. I lived there for two years. Um, 23 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,559 Speaker 1: I loved it. I'm I'm a I'm an East Coast girl, 24 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: saffy mouth, you know, yelling in traffic, et cetera. Yeah, yeah, 25 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: I'm walking here, that kind of stuff. Well, the most 26 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,839 Speaker 1: famous thing about New York culture is that scene where 27 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: what's his name is that? That's not the nero, is it? Um? 28 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: I want to say Dustin Hoffman. It's Dustin Hoffman from 29 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: Midnight Cowboy, right, where he's like walking across the street 30 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: with the other guy and like that dude nearly hits him. 31 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: He's like, I'm walking here. Well, that's a famous New 32 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: York moment. It's the thing everybody jokes about when they 33 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: pretend to be a New Yorker, And of course it 34 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: is a moment. What's what's depicted in that seen is 35 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: a man having an aggressive interaction with someone in a car. Right. 36 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: Because New York has famously heinous traffic problems. Um, not 37 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: quite Los Angeles bad, although the parking is worse than 38 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: it is in l A. Um, but pretty bad traffic. 39 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: And today we're going to talk about the guy who's 40 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: responsible for that, Bridget. Have you ever heard of Robert Moses? 41 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: I have not. Oh Bobby Mose. Yeah, this is um. 42 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: This guy is important if you're not if you've never 43 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: been to New York is um. The the lingering impacts 44 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: of the things that he did are like almost incomprehensibly Titanic. 45 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: But he is also known as the man who built 46 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: New York City. UM. Like all, a huge number of 47 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: the landmarks that are most famous about that town UM 48 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,839 Speaker 1: were the result of this guy's direct work and spoilers. 49 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 1: He was a gigantic racist with a weird car fetish. Yeah. 50 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: I guess it wouldn't be bastards if it was like, Oh, 51 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 1: he was a really nice guy. You like to cook 52 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: like salads for people in hand them out. This is 53 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: just a podcast about a guy who made salads for free, Bridget. 54 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: I feel like they were all right, Bridget, we should 55 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,519 Speaker 1: have done uh this before we did cool people who 56 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: did cool stuff with Margaret Kildrey, so you could have 57 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: the proper cleans for for What's interesting is, for a 58 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: long time people called this guy a cool person who 59 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: had done cool stuff, and notably the folks who did 60 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: were rich white people like I guess he was a 61 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: cool person depending on who you ask for some perhaps 62 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: he was cool in that way that like if you 63 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: have a movie and you have like the bad guy, 64 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: who's this like figure in government who's incredibly good at 65 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: like wielding power and like carrying out like you could 66 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: have made a good house of cards, Like uh, Netflix 67 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: series about how good this guy was it like um running, 68 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: like pulling the levers of government. Like, I guess he's 69 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: cool in that regard, But he is part of the 70 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: reason why we're all going to choke to death on 71 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: exhaust fumes. So that part, I would say is probably bad. 72 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: Bridget how do you feel about choking to death on 73 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: exhaust fumes? I don't love it. I don't love it. 74 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: Not not pro choking. Okay, Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna 75 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: put I I keep a little keep a little tally 76 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: by the desk of people who want to choke to 77 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: death on exhaust fumes. So I'm gonna mark you a no. 78 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,239 Speaker 1: Which is the first big disagreement you and Jamie Loftus 79 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: have had. Oh she's she's like, Oh, she's a huge 80 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: fan of choking on exhaust huge That's why she spent 81 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: so much time in Florida. Recently, the Ghost Church podcast 82 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: was just to cover listen to Ghost Church now on 83 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: the Heart Radio network. Okay, we should talk about Robert Moses. 84 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: What's Sophie? Come on, you're gonna plug it it. Please 85 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: plug the network it's on, which is ours, which is 86 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: called cool Zone Media. And that doesn't sound like us, really, 87 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: that doesn't sound like us. So bridget Bobby Moses. Robert 88 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: Moses Arms. Rob Mose was born in New Haven, Connecticut, 89 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 1: on December eighteen eight His father, Emmanuel was descended from 90 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: Spanish Jewish immigrants, His mother, Isabella, was German Jewish, and 91 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 1: her father, Bernard Cohen, was a wealthy New York businessman. 92 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: For nine years, he and his parents lived in Connecticut, 93 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 1: just a couple of blocks from Yale Um. And based 94 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: on the fact that they lived next door to to Yale, 95 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: you will not be surprised to hear they were comfortable 96 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: and quite affluent, right, Like, not a lot of poor 97 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: kids grow up in the shadow of Yale University. Yeah, 98 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: I mean the Yale is a dead giveaway that you've 99 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: got some money. Yeah. No, it was a rough neighborhood. 100 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: Skull and bones. Guys robbed us every night beat us 101 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: with diplomas. Um. Yeah, so he grows up next to 102 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: Yale UM and his dad the family business that his 103 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: dad isn't. His dad owns a department store and is 104 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: also a real estate speculator in Connecticut. UM. And he 105 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: was successful enough at these endeavors that in eighteen ninety 106 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: seven he sold his business, he sold his real estate holdings, 107 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: and he retired. He retires like pretty, he's not a 108 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: he's not a he's like kind of early middle age 109 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: when he does this. Um. And the reason he retires 110 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: is that his wife's father, Robert Moses, is m Grandpa 111 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: Bernard had died that year and he had willed his 112 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 1: daughter and her family his mansion in New York City. 113 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: So Robert Moses, his dad retires because their grandpa died 114 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 1: and left them a mansion. So they're like, well, we 115 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: have all this cash and now we have a mansion. 116 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: Why are we We don't need to really do anything else, 117 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 1: you know. So they moved to the mansion in New 118 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 1: York City and they've become fancy New York socialite people. Right, 119 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: So pretty easy run of it, you would say at 120 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: this stage. Yeah, just being given mansion's sounds sounds pretty sweet. Yes, 121 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: he has the upbringing of like of a of a 122 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: teenage girl and like a Hallmark Original movie. Um, where 123 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, we have this surprise family mansion. Now 124 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: we're going to live in New York and be sudden socialites. Yeah. Um, 125 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: that's very much his background. Yeah, it's giving like what's 126 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: that Adam Sandler movie where he becomes wealthy? Um? Mr Deeds, 127 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 1: Like a little bit of Mr. Deeds. It's a Mr. Deeds, 128 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: but we all wish it was a Billy Madison. Um. 129 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: So here his mom like, well, now that they're in 130 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: New York, their fancy socialite people, you know, they're they're 131 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: they're living it up, drinking tea with like all of 132 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: their fingers extended, all that that fancy ship. His mom 133 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: gets involved in what's called the settlement house movement. Now again, 134 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: they are rich, but they are they are the kind 135 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: of descendants of some of the first Jewish people to 136 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: come to the United States and given like again because 137 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: they have money, like a lot of their their ancestors 138 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: are some of the first Jewish folks who immigrate out 139 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: of Europe and into the Northeast. Um. Their ancestors are 140 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: doing pretty well. But obviously by the eighteen nineties, most 141 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: of the Jews who are coming to the United States 142 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: are not people with money. Right. If you remember your 143 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: history and you think about why a lot of Jewish 144 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: people are fleeing to New York in the eighteen nineties, 145 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: think back to our episodes on the Czars. They are 146 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: having trouble, right, Um. So these are are mainly immigrants 147 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: from like Eastern Europe, from Slavic countries, um. And they're 148 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: seen by so the kind of established Jewish community in 149 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: New York at this time is primarily German Jewish, and 150 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: a lot of them are are are kind of upper class, 151 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: and so they have deep sympathy for their Eastern European 152 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: co religionists, but they also are kind of bigoted against them, 153 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: right because number one, Slavs are are Again, this is 154 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: the attitude of like rich German's kind of unkimpt and 155 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: like dirty and stuff, right, Like they're poor, you know, um, 156 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: And they come from this like less civilized part of 157 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: Europe and the attitudes of these people and also a 158 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: lot of them are dangerously socialist, right. A lot of 159 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: like Jewish refugees in the eighteen nineties have left wing leanings. 160 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: And again, these the established Jewish community in New York, 161 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: like a lot of them have money, right, Like Robert 162 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: Moses family and their mansion are not socialists, you know, 163 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be very surprised if they were. So there's 164 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: this there's this x of things and some of its 165 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: self preservation, right because people like Bella Moses, who's who's 166 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:08,239 Speaker 1: Robert's mom um and other kind of wealthy um diaspora 167 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: Jews in the United States both are like, well, we 168 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: don't like this socialism, and we're not really fans of 169 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 1: a lot of these people's like Slavic customs. But also, um, 170 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: it's potentially dangerous if Jewish people in the United States 171 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: develop a reputation for being like left wing radicals, because 172 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 1: that ship has been very dangerous for Jewish people in Europe. Right. 173 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: So there's this decision among kind of the great and 174 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: good in the Jewish community that like, we need to 175 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: Americanize these folks fucking asap. Right. Um. So settlement houses 176 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: provide new immigrants with a place to live, um, where 177 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: they can learn English and like American customs like not 178 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: talking about socialists and reunionizing in your workplace, right, Um, 179 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: so these settlement houses are in a lot always very 180 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,599 Speaker 1: positive things. These people are desperate refugees coming to the 181 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: United States. They need shelter, they need food, they need 182 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: job opportunities, clothing, all that kind of stuff, and the 183 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: settlement houses provide that. But they're also deeply paternal a stick, 184 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: as this quote from a write up by the by 185 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: Virginia Commonwealth University makes clear. Quote Underneath the giving of 186 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: money in time was an assumption that the givers knew 187 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: what was best for the recipients. The recipients did not 188 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: always appear grateful. Some have been leaders in their own 189 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: Jewish communities, some were educated, some were professionals, and some 190 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: have been political activists. But almost everyone had pride and 191 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,719 Speaker 1: could sense when they were being patronized. So you get 192 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: what's kind of like, there's some yeah, this is this 193 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: is what Bob Moses family is involved, and they're the 194 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: ones doing the patronizing. Yeah, it's interesting that So that 195 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: that bit that you just read also shout out to 196 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: VC you. My parents both thought there, Um, yeah, it's 197 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: interesting to me that like they knew, they know when 198 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: they're being patronized. It I feel like we often pathologize 199 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: people of like, oh, like they don't really know what's 200 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: going on, Like you can just say whatever, But like 201 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: I really like that point that like, oh, they knew 202 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: what time it was, they knew, you know, what the 203 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: vibe wasn't how they were being treated. Yeah, they're aware 204 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: of what's going on, but it's also like, what are 205 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 1: you gonna do turn down the free food in the 206 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: place to stay? Like it's hard landing in America with 207 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 1: nothing but the clothes on your back. You know, you 208 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: need something. And so this is the community the people 209 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: who are again doing the patronizing. That's where young Bob 210 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: Moses grows up as this rich kid watching his mom 211 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: and she's fundraising, she's setting up these facilities where like 212 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: rich people plot out life paths for poor people. Um. 213 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: And he and his brother Paul attend several fancy private 214 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: schools in a military school. You know, they have kind 215 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: of the most privileged upbringing you can within this community. Uh. 216 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: And in nineteen o five, at age seventeen, Robert Moses 217 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: starts classes at Yale. So again doing great. Um, how 218 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: do you think he got in? You think he no? No, 219 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: he's His test scores were just like good as hell. No, no, 220 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:52,079 Speaker 1: I think it was Aunt Becky from Full House. Oh yeah, 221 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: I mean no, these people. I think these guys have 222 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: the money that you don't need to Aunt Becky. It right, 223 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 1: like you've got the family. Now that said, we are 224 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: going to talk about it. It's actually not there's a 225 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: little bit because again he is Jewish, right, which is 226 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: a a you are not really white as a Jewish 227 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: person in in fucking nineteen oh five, you know, like 228 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 1: that has not come around yet. So he he's moderately athletic. Uh, 229 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: he's he's a good competitor. He's he's a runner, he's 230 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: a swimmer. Um. And he also from an early age 231 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: takes on his mom's activism bent but of course since 232 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: he's a Yale kid, his activism is like rich kid activism. 233 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,439 Speaker 1: So like the first thing he organizes is a fight 234 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: to take some of the money budgeted for the school's 235 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: football program and diverted to what we're called minor sports, 236 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: which in the US was everything but football. Um, so 237 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: that's like his first piece of like community organizing. But 238 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: I like, I know, I feel like I know so 239 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: much about him just having having that information that that 240 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: was his forming into organizing of like, we need to 241 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: be funding lacrosse and squash and other sports too. He's 242 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: the kind of guy where if you'd like met him 243 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: a couple of decades later at a party and been like, oh, yeah, 244 00:12:58,120 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: I've been organizing a food bank, he'd be like, yes, 245 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: I have community organizing experience too. Let me tell you 246 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 1: about the squash team we funded. You did not have 247 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: a British accent, but I can't, like, if you're doing posh, 248 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: you just have to go English. So yeah, he's a 249 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 1: He's a good student. He wins awards for his performance 250 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: in Latin mathematics, public speaking. He writes for The Current, 251 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: which is their newspaper. He edits a volume of poetry. Um. Now, 252 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: obviously he's doing just fine. Right, This is not a 253 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: kid who is struggling tremendously in his early life. Um. 254 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: But again he's he is Jewish in this period, which 255 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 1: means he's not insulated entirely from how fucking racist upper 256 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: class society is. One of my sources for his early 257 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: life is an article in the Atlantic from nineteen thirty nine. Uh. 258 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: It extremely tactfully notes, because it's not it's ninety nine, 259 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: the Atlantic doesn't view racism as bad. Um it notes 260 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: quote a non fraternity man could hardly get further at Yale. 261 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: So it's basically saying like he did as good as 262 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: a man with not in a fraternity could do in Yale. 263 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: And you may be wondering, I wasn't he a fraternity 264 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: man because he's again very wealthy, well, because he's Jewish, 265 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: and jewishman in nineteen oh five were not allowed to 266 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: be in fraternities at Yale. Right, you could attend, but 267 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: you could not. It's it's the same way that like, 268 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: up until pretty recently, there were quite a few there's 269 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: probably still are, like country clubs and golf courses that 270 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: like wouldn't let Jewish people in, you know. Um, So 271 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: while there had been Jewish people at Yale um since 272 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: the seventeen hundreds, they kept an official cap on Jewish 273 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: admission to the school, like they had a maximum number 274 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: of Jewish people who are allowed to attend. And I 275 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: want to quote now from a New York Times article 276 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: written in nineteen eight six. Not until the early nineteen 277 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: sixties did Yale at University in an informal admissions policy 278 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: that restricted Jewish enrollment to about ten percent. I did 279 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: not know that sixties. I mean, and obviously there's their 280 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: racist In other ways, Jewish people are not the most 281 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: discriminated group of folks at Yale. But like they kept 282 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: that ship going until the sixty as much later than 283 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: I would have assumed officially on the books, right, Like 284 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: it's an in for like they don't have a law 285 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: by law, But there was a book published by the 286 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: Yale University players being like, yeah, we found based on 287 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: like letters between people running the school that like, yeah, 288 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: they didn't allow more than ten percent of the classes 289 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: to be Jewish for up until the sixties. Um, it's 290 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: pretty pretty cool. Um. I found a book Joining the Club, 291 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: which began as a sophomore term paper by guy named 292 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: Dan A. Oran who's the nineteen seventy nine Yale grad um, 293 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: that documents anti semitism reaching from fraternity brothers to board 294 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: trustees at Yale. A lot of the unit of the 295 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: research is based on university documents. Um. And uh quote 296 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: here from again from that right up uh in um 297 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: the New York Times. One document, a folder now in 298 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: the university archives labeled Jewish Problems, contains a memo from 299 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: the admissions chairman of NINETO urging limits on the alien 300 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: and unwashed element. The next year, the Admissions Commission acted 301 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: the Limitation of Numbers policy, and informal quota Jewish enrollment 302 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: was held to about ten for four decades. So part 303 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: of what's happening here, he's allowed in again because he 304 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: is not seen as he's not seen as like a 305 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: fully a white person, but he's not seen as because 306 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: he's rich fully Jewish. Right. The thing they're trying to 307 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: keep out is Jewish people from Eastern Europe is like slabs, right, um. 308 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: And that's that's like the the alien and unwashed element 309 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: again ninety two. That's how Yale is describing these kits. Altho. 310 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: I love that the text is called Jewish Problems. Oh yes, 311 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: like just to be real explicit, real clear. At least 312 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: they didn't call it the Jewish Question, right, um, but 313 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: not that far off right. So that's that's the world. 314 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: Our boy Robbie comes up and he's simultaneously on the 315 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: very top of the social hierarchy in New York City. Right, 316 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: you don't get a lot more privileged than he is, um, 317 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: And he and his family you could almost look at 318 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 1: them as kind of like feudal lords in respect to 319 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: a lot of poor immigrant Jews, right, who are kind 320 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: of dependent on their large s um. And so he's 321 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: able to exist in the rarefied levels of white Christian society. 322 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,199 Speaker 1: But he's also permanently uthered from it, right, He's not 323 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 1: fully accepted in it either. This is an interesting like 324 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: way to grow up. And you might think, because he 325 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: couldn't not be aware of the injustices of the era, 326 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: that he would be extra sympathetic to other people struggling 327 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:27,360 Speaker 1: against bigotry. That you might think that that's not how 328 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: it goes down um, But we're building to that. So 329 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: after Yale Um, he goes to Oxford Um, where The 330 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: Atlantic recalls this occurrence in his early background. A terrific 331 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 1: outspokenness which never counts the odds against him, appeared in 332 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: one Oxford experience when he was selected to represent his 333 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: college at a World Congress on racial problems. His frankness 334 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: so infuriated some of the intense nationalist groups that once 335 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: he had to free from the platform and escape through 336 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: a rear exit. One of the delegates and an assistant 337 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: to the Cadive of Egypt, was so impressed that he 338 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: offered Moses a position as secretary to the cadive. Moses declined, 339 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: but later he had a classmate visited Egypt to study 340 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: what was being done under Kitchener and developed a profound 341 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: admiration for British colonial administration. So that carries a shiploaded ground. Right, 342 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: He's going to this like congress thing at Oxford and 343 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 1: talking about racism probably you have to assume racism against 344 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: like Jewish people, because it's the period of time that 345 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: it is um And he gets chased away by by fascists, right, 346 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: he gets chased off states by fascists for talking about 347 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: how racism is bad. And then he impresses the government 348 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: of Egypt, which at this point is like the British Empire, 349 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: and he goes and he's like, boy, these British sure 350 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: know how to govern a multiracial society fairly, Like that's 351 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 1: an incredible degree of like ship to cover, right, Wow, 352 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,719 Speaker 1: I mean it really is interesting. How like if I 353 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: didn't know where this was going, I would think, like, 354 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: this is gonna turn out to be somebody who like, 355 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: is this like great leftist person who you know understands 356 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: why being you know, actively anti racist is a good thing. 357 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: And it's so interesting how it's like no part pivot. 358 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: Actually it is a hard and it's interesting because he 359 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 1: clearly sees the problems of nationalism and racism. But also 360 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:09,959 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about this more in a second. 361 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: He he looks at the government of Egypt under the 362 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: British and he's like, this is how you run a 363 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: multiracial society. So he's he's he's only looking at it. 364 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: He's looking at the problems of race and is able 365 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: to see them as far as they affect people like him, 366 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: who are like upper class but kept out of the 367 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,640 Speaker 1: highest level of the upper class because of an accident 368 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: of birth. But he's not able to see it anywhere 369 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: below that level. Right, that's going to be the guy 370 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 1: Bobby Moses grows up into. But first, bridget you know 371 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: who does see the problems of racism? Who the products 372 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: and services that support this podcast. That's why on violand 373 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: where you can hunt children, they don't see race. They 374 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: don't see race at all. They kidnapped kids from every continent, um, 375 00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 1: from every from every financial group. You know, if if 376 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: you're a child, you might wind up child hunting island, 377 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: and it doesn't matter what your background is. You know, 378 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: that's the beauty of Bridget. This is a master This 379 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: was a masterful Thank you, thank you. Sophie says that 380 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:17,439 Speaker 1: all the time, but I appreciate the additional support. She 381 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: loves it. It's your favorite bit. She's so because you 382 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,959 Speaker 1: have then you love it. It's because I have to 383 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: make edit notes for editor to bleep the name. It's 384 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 1: very funny, and people people keep being like, people think 385 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 1: he's being real. They should do It's so funny. I'm 386 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: never gonna stop anyway, here's oh we're back now, Bridget. 387 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: If you were going to eat a kid, right, oh 388 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,120 Speaker 1: my god, what do you the ribs right, like that's 389 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: where the softest meat is going to be, I would say, 390 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: so this just I just finished watching that show on 391 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: Netflix alone and it turned into a conversation. If I 392 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: had to eat somebody, how would I go about it? 393 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 1: I think ribs, I think some some some kind of 394 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: like fatty cut of meat, so like thighs, butt area, 395 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: because you're gonna want to have a lot of a 396 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: lot of fattiness. Anya, you'd want to slow cook it. Um. 397 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: I ate I kind of ate people. Once. I ate 398 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: a fish that had just been eating human corpses, and 399 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 1: it was pretty good. But that's as close as I've gotten. 400 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: I haven't just like having straight what Sophie, how are 401 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: we doing? I don't know. How are you doing, Buddy? 402 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: I'm kind of today I'm feeling fine. I'm feeling fine. 403 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: So you've said some wild ship today everyone's having a 404 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:42,880 Speaker 1: good time on the old internet dot com. So we're 405 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,360 Speaker 1: at an interesting point in Bob Moses's background here, Robbie Moses, 406 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: because um, we've seen him both like get chased off 407 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: the stage by fascists for their bigotry and also he 408 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: goes to Egypt and he develops this deep appreciation for 409 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: what is an extremely racist cast system imposed by the 410 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: British and their colonial project in North Africa. Now we 411 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: should talk a little bit about what's going on here, 412 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: because so what you kind of so the Ottoman Empire 413 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: still exists, right, this is prior to World War One, 414 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: you know, and if you're not aware, the Ottoman Empire 415 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: they're the ones who kind of end the Eastern Roman Empire, 416 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: very powerful for a few hundred years and then like 417 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: the sick Man of Europe is the term used for them, 418 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,199 Speaker 1: for like five years, right, because they're just kind of 419 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: like this failing empire, but they govern basically the whole 420 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: modern Middle East, right um. And they technically are in 421 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: charge in North Africa, but they're bad at projecting power, 422 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: and so the British kind of come in and are 423 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 1: running Egypt and a chunk of it that this is 424 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: the whole history here is more complicated. But technically this 425 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: area is under the government of the Ottoman Empire, but 426 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 1: the British are like helping them maintain control through force 427 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: of arms. Um. And it's it's effectively a British colonial project, 428 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: right um. And the the guy who was responsible in 429 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: this period for imposing colonial rule by the British on 430 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: North Africa is a dude named Lord Kitchener. Um. The 431 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: reason Kitcheners in charges he had there had been this um. 432 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: We'll talk about this one day. It's a fascinating piece 433 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: of history. So there's this guy um in the lady 434 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds who early nineteen hundreds, who calls himself the Mahdi, right, 435 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,479 Speaker 1: And Mahdi is an Islamic term. It means um uh 436 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: Messianic messiah basically, right, So like the Mahdi is like 437 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: supposed to be the Islamic Messiah and there's this dude 438 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: who claims to be the Mahdi and he creates it's 439 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: kind of like the Islamic state, right, an early version 440 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: of it. He creates like this, We're going to finally 441 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: go back to true Islam. Um. And he wins a 442 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: bunch of battles against the colonial forces. He massacre several 443 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 1: British armies. It's a really fascinating piece of history. We've 444 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: talked about this a bit when we talk about um 445 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: the Maxim gun and some other stuff. But so he 446 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 1: this Mahdi has this big uprising in Sudan, um and 447 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: there's this this vicious war and Kishener Kitchener crushes the 448 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: war or brutally in this battle called omdurman Um with 449 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: where Winston Churchill shows up and shoots a bunch of 450 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: people too. So this is like an important piece of 451 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: like colonial history. Um. Kitchener is also the guy who 452 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: by this point had orchestrated the war against the Boers 453 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 1: in Africa, where he had pioneered the military use of 454 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 1: concentration camps. He was really the first guy, since like 455 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: the Spanish too, to use them in a really modern way. UM. 456 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: So that's who Kitchener is right. He's this guy who 457 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: crushes the modest uprising. He's this guy who puts concentration 458 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 1: camps in South Africa. Um, he's a he's a pretty 459 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: fucked up dude. We'll talk about him more at some 460 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: point in the future. What's relevant now is that after 461 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: he takes over, after like he crushes the Modests, he's 462 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 1: in charge in North Africa for a while, he's like 463 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 1: running things for the Brits and he helps them establish 464 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: a framework for governing Egypt. That because again, they don't 465 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: on paper control Egypt the way they do India right, 466 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: Like India is like a possession of the crown, right, 467 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: that's not entirely what's going on. So they have to 468 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: have this illusion of na of rule um. But they 469 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: don't want like obviously they're not gonna let Egyptians run 470 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 1: Egypt like that's the kind of thing. Of course, not 471 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 1: Africans in charge in Africa. It is the early nineteen hundreds. 472 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: That ship is not happening. Yeah, no, no, no, So 473 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: Kitchener creates something called the condominium um and under this 474 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: he basically carves out an Arabic empire run by the 475 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,479 Speaker 1: British from the hind quarters of the dying Ottoman Empire. 476 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: And I'm gonna I'm gonna read a quote from the 477 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: book A Piece to End All Peace that describes how 478 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 1: this functioned in practice. The cabinet, which is like the 479 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: governing agency of the condominium, in this instance, allowed Kitchener's 480 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: agency to establish the prototype of the form of rule 481 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 1: that the Field Marshal and his staff eventually wanted Britain 482 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: to exercise throughout the Arabic speaking world. It was not 483 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: to be direct rules, such as was practiced in parts 484 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: of India and Kitcheners Egypt, hereditary prince and native cabinet 485 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 1: members and governors went through the motions of governing. They 486 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 1: promuligated under their own name decisions recommended to them by 487 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: the British advisors at hatched to their respective offices. That 488 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 1: was the form of protectorate government favored by the Kitchener group. 489 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: So they build like a fake shadow government that is 490 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,880 Speaker 1: supposed to on paper exercise all the power, but then 491 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 1: kind of extra legally it's it's white people pulling all 492 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: the strings and actually running everything. You know. Um, So 493 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: this is what Bob Moses looks at as a as 494 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 1: a young man, he goes to Egypt, he sees the 495 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 1: way this is a setup, and he's like, this is 496 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: the ideal way to run a multiracial society. This is 497 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 1: how you do it right, Like, this is a good call. 498 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: You know, they've built the British have built a perfect 499 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: uh society free of racial conflict in Northern Africa. It's 500 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: so stunning, how I think it's exactly what you said. 501 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 1: We're like the ability to sort of like understand and 502 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: contend with racism really does stop insofar as it like 503 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: no longer directly centers him in this situation. He's just like, oh, 504 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: this is great, Like we need to we need to 505 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 1: like build on this model. What a great system. Yeah, 506 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 1: And it's obvious sleep the tour as this like upper 507 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,360 Speaker 1: class kid who gets like recognized by the cadive for 508 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 1: his courage at the speaking engagement. The tour he's getting 509 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: of Egypt. He's not like backpacking around and talking to 510 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: the common people. He's visiting like the folks who are running. 511 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: He's visiting like the Arabs who are working with the 512 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: British Empire and and living very well as a result. 513 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: And they're telling him like, oh, no, are people like 514 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: people love living this way like this whole everyone's very happy, 515 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 1: like you have this perfect division and nobody wants anything 516 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: to change. This is an idea. It's that kind of 517 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 1: vision of the Middle East. This is that that period 518 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 1: like when you watch ship like um um uh, the 519 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: like a lot of the media that comes out pre 520 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: World War One or kind of into World War one 521 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,919 Speaker 1: and World War two where it's like white people vacationing 522 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 1: or traveling around like the Middle East to Northern Africa, 523 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 1: and it's this very like uh, this like colonial kind 524 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 1: of porn basically totally um. You get bits of that 525 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: in the Kenneth Branda poiro series, although I do think 526 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: he I mean, it's not primarily focused on that, but 527 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 1: like there's pieces of that in it, Like it's this 528 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: is this is forever the period that like a certain 529 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: kind of white person will look back on and be like, oh, 530 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: it was so much nicer back then. Oh yeah, that's 531 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: even today. People still romanticize that ship and like, like 532 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 1: I've seen some pretty atrocious, you know, rightly panned sex 533 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 1: theme weddings were like, oh the theme is essentially colonialism. Uh, 534 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: pretty corross thing to romanticize. Yeah. Um and and Bobby 535 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: Moses is like romanticizing it while it's happening. So he 536 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: he comes back from Egypt. Um. You know, he's he's 537 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: studied law at Yale and Oxford. He does a post 538 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: graduate course on political science at Columbia when he gets back, UM, 539 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: and he gets his first job in government in nineteen thirteen. 540 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: He's twenty five years old. Um. He'll receive his doctorate 541 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: in political science a year later. And this initial gig 542 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: is with the New York City Municipal Research Bureau UM, 543 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: which at the time is focused on reforming the city's 544 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: civil service. Now, if you remember your American history, right, 545 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: Tammany Hall and Ship is big. In this period, New 546 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: York is like one big cesspit of graft and corruption. 547 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: You know, everybody is bribing everybody. The police are just 548 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: like hired goons for different like elected leaders who are 549 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: basically gangsters. So it's it's the same as it is today, 550 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: but we use different terms to describe it. Um. I mean, 551 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: you're not wrong, you're joking, You're not I'm not really joking. 552 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: It's I'll say it's probably in terms of the actual 553 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: political corruption, it's broadly speaking, worse than it is now. 554 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: Although it is different, Like I guess at this point, 555 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: one of the big differences is the police are literally 556 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: just hired goons as opposed to now the police are 557 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: a power block in their own right that controls the 558 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: city with like an iron grip. That is different right 559 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: at this period of time, that does not has not 560 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: like the NYPD is not like a massive power in 561 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: its own right. You know. So in a lot of ways, 562 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: it kind of sounds like it's worse. It might be 563 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: like that's really going to be a matter of opinion. Um. 564 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: But elections and stuff like it's all basically decided by 565 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: you know, you have these bosses who like wrangle votes 566 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: together based on like the different things that they're able 567 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: to hand out, and like that's what determines who gets 568 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: elected on the local level. And it's there. It's not 569 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 1: really democratic in any meaningful way. Um. And this has 570 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: started to change in the early nineteen hundreds. American cities 571 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: are kind of starting to embrace the idea that local 572 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: government should be slightly different from the mafia. Um And 573 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: and Robert Moses is kind of one of these big 574 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: reformers in terms of the way the civil service works 575 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: and the specific thing he pushes is a massive reform 576 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: of the hiring system. Um. He thinks that people should 577 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: be picked for jobs in civil service because of personal 578 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: merit and their qualifications, not because their uncle runs a 579 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: numbers racket and owns a bunch of police officers. Right. 580 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: That's his attitude, which is like fine. Um. So he 581 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: pushes this, like, let's hire people who know how to 582 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: do the jobs we want them to do thing um. 583 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: And this doesn't go well because Tammany Hall is still 584 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: quite powerful in this period, and the people who don't 585 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: want this patronage system to change and want to keep 586 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: handing out jobs like candy. Um. They fight back and 587 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: they win, and Moses quits his his first gig in government. 588 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,959 Speaker 1: But the fact that he'd suggested such a bold reimagining 589 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: of civil service earns him attention from Bell, Moscow Witz Um. 590 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: And Bell is a reform advocate who advised a politician 591 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: named Alfred Smith. Now in nineteen eighteen, four years into 592 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: Robert's government career, Smith is elected governor of New York State. 593 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: So Bob starts like advising him and whatnot on reform, 594 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: and Smith campaigns and becomes governor of the entire state. 595 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: Uh miss Moscow Wits who had gotten him the job, 596 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: like basically helps bring him further and further into the 597 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: halls of democratic party power, as like uh Alfred Smith 598 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: starts his career actually running the state UM and Robert Moses, 599 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: he kind of gravitates towards the park system. So he's 600 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: he again, this is all very much how rich people 601 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: take and and you could a also not democratic because 602 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: nobody of her lex Bob Moses, like some rich lady 603 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: who's advising the guy who becomes governor likes him, brings 604 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: him in. He starts going to parties with these people 605 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: and talking to him about his ideas on government, and 606 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: they start giving him jobs, right, and because he's really interested, 607 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: he's fascinated by the park system, which at that point 608 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: New York doesn't have a park system. There's like this 609 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: chaotic mess of wildlife preservation areas and like parks that 610 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: rich people had donated and local projects that like a 611 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: neighborhood put together, but there's no park system, right and 612 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: like in broad for the state or for the City 613 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: of New York. UM and he feels like that should 614 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: be changed, right, we need like to centralize it, we 615 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: need to have like a more efficient way of managing 616 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: and taking care of our parks um. And he he 617 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: talks the Governor Smith into doing this, right he and 618 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: again none of the systemic and nobody elects this. They 619 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: don't like go for a plebiscite. He's just like, hey, 620 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: I think this is a good idea. And Smith is like, 621 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: you're right, that is a good idea. And he creates 622 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: the Long Island Commission on Parks and the State count 623 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: solon Parks um. And these positions are invented by Bob 624 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: Moses with Smith's Smith's backing, and he's just put in 625 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 1: charge of them um. So he doesn't necessarily have any 626 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: background in this, just a just an interest. No he 627 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: has he has he has like his PhD and stuff 628 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,719 Speaker 1: like he's like interested in public service. But he's not. 629 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: He has no like parks. Now that to be fair, 630 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: nobody really do because there's not like a parks department 631 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: that like this is like the era in which we 632 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: start to have an idea that there should be a 633 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: park system like nationally, there's not like this is all 634 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: coming together in the early nineteen hundreds, you know, Teddy 635 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: Roosevelt's hiking with John Muir and the Weston Ship. Um So, 636 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: this is all pretty new. So to be fair to him, 637 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: there's not really like no one has much experience. But 638 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: he is like as this guy fighting against um corruption 639 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: and like patronage and people just like getting handed jobs. 640 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: He's just handed this job because he's like friends with 641 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: the governor, you know, like that's why he and he's 642 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: he's going to be the he's going to be the 643 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: chairman of the Long Island Commissi on Parks in the 644 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: State Council on Parks in New York State for forty years. Yeah, yeah, 645 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: for forty years. He will be in charge of both 646 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 1: of these things. Um And this is like, you know, 647 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties when he gets these positions, the early twenties, 648 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: so up until through the sixties, he's going to be 649 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 1: running the whole state park system. He never gets elected. 650 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: Um So, Smith, who's again the governor, comes to know 651 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: Robert Moses as the absolute best bill drafter in politics. 652 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,760 Speaker 1: That's the thing that like really gets him popular among 653 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: other people in power is that he's able to like 654 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 1: write these bills for things that should be to basically 655 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: basically to craft what's going to be the administrative state 656 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: of of the of the State of New York up 657 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: until the present day. Like he is the one building 658 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: the legal basis of everything that exists in New York today. 659 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: Really um by putting out these bills saying, hey, we 660 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: should be in charge of this. Hey, the government should 661 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 1: be regulating this. Hey, we should be building this kind 662 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: of thing. Hey, we should be in like over time 663 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: building again, what is New York's proba? Probably like one 664 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,839 Speaker 1: of the most centralized state governments in the United States 665 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: right now. Bob Moses builds it with Albert Smith and 666 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 1: and together they create what is certainly at the time 667 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: the most centralized government in the United States. In nineteen seven, 668 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: Smith makes Moses the Secretary of State for New York. UM. Now, 669 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,760 Speaker 1: this doesn't last for long. Franklin Roosevelt gets elected governor 670 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: the next year to meet, defeating Smith UM. And as 671 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: he leaves, Smith makes one request of FDR, which is 672 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,280 Speaker 1: keep Bob Moses as Secretary of State UM and Roosevelt 673 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 1: actually declines. UM. And this is due to the fact 674 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: that this is not due to any good reason on 675 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 1: Roosevelt's part. Bob Moses had refused to hire Roosevelt Secretary 676 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,240 Speaker 1: Lois howe to a position in the Council of Parks. 677 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: So FDRs like funk that guy. Um, So he loses 678 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: his he's not Secretary of State for very long, but 679 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: Moses continues to be the chairman of basically the whole 680 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: Parks Department. UM. And FDR when he comes in, sees 681 00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: how effective and powerful this this centralized cittical machine that 682 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,439 Speaker 1: Bob Moses and Smith have created is and he kind 683 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: of he falls in love with it, and the government 684 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: of the State of New York becomes the model of 685 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: the new deal government that that FDR is going to 686 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,800 Speaker 1: build when he becomes president. Right, he's very consciously using 687 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: the state government of New York that Moses and Smith 688 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: build as like this, this is how to centralize an 689 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: exercise power as an executive because it it works really well, 690 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,399 Speaker 1: um for that kind of thing. Right, there's as we're 691 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 1: going to talk about a lot of criticisms from it, 692 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 1: but it's very easy for an executive to exercise power. 693 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: And the government that Moses and Smith build And that's 694 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: what I mean, you know, FDR, right, Like that's what 695 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: he does, you know, yeah, it is. It is fascinating 696 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: to me that this guy could sort of just luck 697 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 1: his way into these positions by being wealthy and well 698 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: connected and then have these this decades long impact on 699 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: the on a city like New York. Like it's just 700 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: that is so that is so fascinating to me that 701 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,280 Speaker 1: like that's how power is is amassed and the influence 702 00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: that it has. I mean, that's still to a significant extent, 703 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 1: how it's amassed. Right, Um, at the highest levels. You know, 704 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: it is about like who you know and who your 705 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: friends are. It's why you get these It's when you 706 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: get Joe Biden saying that, like, Hey, you know what, 707 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,279 Speaker 1: I I've talked a lot. I've known Mitch McConnell for years. 708 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: He's an honest man, Like, Right, it's because they're like 709 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: they're friendly, you know, even though I mean I don't 710 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: know that Mitch McConnell is capable of friendship. Um, but 711 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: that's like how everything works. And Moses is the thing 712 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,839 Speaker 1: that he's good at. We're gonna talk about his many 713 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: shortcomings in a bit. He's really good at centralizing power 714 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,320 Speaker 1: and building an apparatus through which the state connectxercise power 715 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: over geography. Right, He's very good at that. Like, this 716 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: is not a thing where he's like incompetent. He knows 717 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 1: what that's why FDR is like we should, we should 718 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 1: take this model and expand it across the country. Um 719 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 1: and Moses again, he gets kind of pushed out of 720 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,360 Speaker 1: potentially what might have been more of a political career, 721 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: But nobody ever stops him from being Chairman of the 722 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 1: part Commission, and he grows more and more comfortable over 723 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:03,360 Speaker 1: time exercise power in this unelected position. He realizes early 724 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,320 Speaker 1: on that people like him right because he's building parks, 725 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: you know, um and being seen as the champion of 726 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,319 Speaker 1: people who like parks, who want green spaces, who want 727 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: like nice areas where they can go like walk around 728 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: and like sit and stuff. He realizes that like being 729 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: the guy who's building that gives him this tremendous amount 730 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 1: of soft power that can allow him to to exercise 731 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 1: actually a lot of control over New York even though 732 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 1: he's unelected. And I'm gonna quote now from Robert Carrow's 733 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,240 Speaker 1: The Power Broker, which is a book about Bob Moses. 734 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 1: Quote this lesson Moses would often recite to associates. He 735 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 1: would put it this way, as long as you're fighting 736 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,760 Speaker 1: for parks, you can be sure of having public opinion 737 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: on your side, and as long as you have public 738 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,399 Speaker 1: opinion on your side, you're safe. As long as you're 739 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: on the side of parks, he would say, you're on 740 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 1: the side of the angels. You can't lose. Oh my gosh. 741 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,359 Speaker 1: That is also so interesting because I think it's still 742 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 1: true today that you know, there are some there are 743 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 1: some things that do give you this element of soft 744 00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: power where people are always going this would be on 745 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: your side. And I think it's interesting that like we 746 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: as we know that, like you know, green spaces and conservation, 747 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 1: like all of all those things are great, but they 748 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: can also historically have been used to sort of usher 749 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: in like a little bit of racism or like a 750 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 1: little bit of you know, they're used to wall people off, 751 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: as we're gonna talk about, and they're used to There 752 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 1: was just an article that like people. I think it 753 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:22,320 Speaker 1: might have been I don't think it was The Times, 754 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 1: but it was It was about in in here in California, 755 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 1: or not here in California, but down in California and 756 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 1: the Bay Area. This woman who like described yourself as 757 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 1: a nimby and who'd been a community activist for forty 758 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: years to like stop new housing from being built, and 759 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 1: she's like, look, I just think people need to think 760 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 1: before they build new housing. You know, ecology is important. 761 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,359 Speaker 1: We have to care about the environment. I don't want 762 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: this hill near my house to like be covered in 763 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 1: like developments because that And it's like, yeah, nobody wants 764 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: green spaces to be replaced with like condos. But also 765 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,319 Speaker 1: because of the way you have fought this and weaponized 766 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,439 Speaker 1: the value of green spaces, Um, you've actually like done 767 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,319 Speaker 1: tremendous harm to the state and made it impossible for 768 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: people to afford living there and like ratchet it up 769 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 1: the and like forced people out. And actually, if you 770 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 1: just built bigger, denser urban areas with more housing, less 771 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,400 Speaker 1: in total of the state maybe would be being used 772 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: and you you would have a much more efficient use 773 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,919 Speaker 1: of the land that exists, and overall it could even 774 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 1: be significantly friendlier on the environment. But because you fought 775 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:26,400 Speaker 1: to keep to keep like these sprawling suburban developments, um 776 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: be the only way people can live, nobody can afford 777 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,800 Speaker 1: to live there. And these sprawling suburban developments keep pushing 778 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: further and further and further out every year. Anyway, Um, 779 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,239 Speaker 1: so yeah, it's it's that like, that's that's how that's 780 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 1: Bob Moses is like the start of that. He's the 781 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: first guy who's going to figure this out. And yeah 782 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: he's going to use it for racism. Um. So one 783 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 1: of his tactics in order to like again, this is 784 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,760 Speaker 1: part of how he exercises power. He can't he can't 785 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 1: like force people to fund him, but he can ask 786 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,839 Speaker 1: for funding for a public works project like a park. 787 00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,440 Speaker 1: He can ask for much less money than he actually 788 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: needs to be old it right. That's one of the 789 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 1: things he always does because it's easy to get people 790 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 1: to agree to pay to something for like a park 791 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 1: or something for barely any money. And once the government 792 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 1: has agreed to start funding the construction of this park, 793 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,360 Speaker 1: this playground, the swimming pool, they kind of have to 794 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 1: continue funding it even if it turns out he's like, oh, 795 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 1: bi always going to cost three times as much, Like 796 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 1: I need a lot more money now, but we've already started. 797 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 1: What do you not want us to finish this thing? Well, 798 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: that's a good talk. I'm gonna quote again from Karo's 799 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,800 Speaker 1: the power Broker. Once they had authorized that small initial 800 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: expenditure and you would spend it, they would not be 801 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 1: able to avoid giving you the rest when you asked 802 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 1: for it. How could they If they refused to give 803 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: you the rest of the money, what they had given 804 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:37,799 Speaker 1: you would be wasted, and that would make them look 805 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 1: bad in the eyes of the public. And if they 806 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 1: said you had misled them, well, they were not supposed 807 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 1: to be misled. If they had been mismiled, that would 808 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 1: mean they hadn't investigated the projects thoroughly and had therefore 809 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: been derelict in their own duty. The possibilities for a 810 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,600 Speaker 1: polite but effective form of political blackmail were endless. Once 811 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 1: the legislature gave you money to start a project, it 812 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:56,840 Speaker 1: would be virtually forced to give you the money to 813 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,560 Speaker 1: finish it. The stakes you drove should be thin pointed, 814 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,399 Speaker 1: wed shaped, in fact, on the end. Once you got 815 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: to the end of the wedge for a project into 816 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,400 Speaker 1: the public treasury, it would be easy to hammer. In 817 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,880 Speaker 1: the West, it's like a polite shakedown. Yeah yeah, yeah, 818 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: he's this is like this is like an upper class 819 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: white people shakedown, right, Like, okay, so you like this, 820 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 1: you like this little park we belt, Well, unfortunately, it's 821 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 1: going to take another like six million dollars to finish it. 822 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 1: Um but you're good for that, right, Like you don't 823 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 1: want to just leave this unfinished, right, that's kind of 824 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,680 Speaker 1: an isore in the middle of this neighborhood, you know. Um, 825 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 1: that's how he's able to like again, he's able to 826 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: exercise power over state spending as an unelected leader by 827 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:41,840 Speaker 1: doing ship like this. Right, even though he doesn't actually 828 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,480 Speaker 1: have the power to like, you know, commission taxes or 829 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,120 Speaker 1: take money out of like the government treasury, he's able 830 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:49,920 Speaker 1: to make the situation why or by the people who 831 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 1: are elected will look bad and maybe not get re 832 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 1: elected if they don't agree with him, because he's smart. Yeah, 833 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,120 Speaker 1: and this is more or less the way that Robert was. 834 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 1: This unelected chairman of a park's board is able to 835 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: exercise power over generations of elected leaders. Now, before we 836 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 1: discuss what he did with that power, we should probably 837 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 1: talk about the New York subway system in this period. 838 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,040 Speaker 1: And I'm gonna quote from a write up and curbed 839 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,600 Speaker 1: On March, York Mayor Robert A. Van Wykee broke ground 840 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,360 Speaker 1: on the city's first subway line, which today corresponds to 841 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,400 Speaker 1: the four, five, and six lines. It traveled from City 842 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:27,040 Speaker 1: Hall in Lower Manhattan to West in Harlem, and construction 843 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,600 Speaker 1: took four years, six months, and twenty three days, a 844 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,520 Speaker 1: timeline that is inconceivable today. The newest subway extension, the 845 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 1: Second Avenue line, opened nearly a decade after its most 846 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,759 Speaker 1: recent official groundbreaking, though construction on subsequent rail lines would 847 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,240 Speaker 1: rarely move that quickly. The city had a very specific 848 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: attitude towards rail development and the four decades following that 849 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 1: groundbreaking to never stop building. As Joe Raskin, author of 850 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 1: The Routes Not Taken, puts it, the idea was to 851 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,120 Speaker 1: allow the subway system to expand and let the city 852 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,960 Speaker 1: go around it, he says, and so subway lines stretched 853 00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,680 Speaker 1: quickly by today's standards anyway, and to un developed areas 854 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 1: of Manhattan and the outer boroughs, with the assumption that 855 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:07,320 Speaker 1: housing and commercial development would follow. Despite setbacks, financial shortfalls, 856 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 1: the clashing agendas of mayors and borough presidents, and battles 857 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,959 Speaker 1: with local community groups, it's how New York City got 858 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,600 Speaker 1: the expansive, complex rail infrastructure that's now seen on modern 859 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,520 Speaker 1: subway maps. This period of major growth lasted until the 860 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 1: late nineteen forties, when annual rideships steadily increased year over 861 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,360 Speaker 1: year and hit its peak in nineteen eight with just 862 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:30,640 Speaker 1: over two billion passengers. So that's all good, right, Yeah. 863 00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I so I've lived in many big cities, 864 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,360 Speaker 1: and I will say I will sing the praises of 865 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,600 Speaker 1: New York subway system all day long. When I lived 866 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,839 Speaker 1: in New York, I lived on the l the Montrose Stop. 867 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 1: It I feel like no other city I've ever lived 868 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 1: and can compete. So they definitely did something right there. 869 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,799 Speaker 1: In my book, they did a lot right. It's it's 870 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:51,239 Speaker 1: fucked up in a lot of ways. Now, as they 871 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,520 Speaker 1: kind of pointed out to add, like a mile is 872 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,640 Speaker 1: going to cause billions of dollars in take ten years 873 00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 1: right where they built most of it in like this 874 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,000 Speaker 1: very rapid period, right, and we're going to talk about 875 00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 1: why it's so hard to expand the subway and why 876 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:04,960 Speaker 1: it's so hard to maintain it, right, because this is 877 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,279 Speaker 1: another complained people have today is that like, yeah, we 878 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,560 Speaker 1: built this great subway system and we're not properly maintaining it. Right. 879 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,080 Speaker 1: So that's definitely that is the story when I just 880 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:15,720 Speaker 1: read as the story of like how New York subway 881 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:17,960 Speaker 1: got to be such an impressive piece of public works 882 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 1: and now we're going to talk about how it got 883 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,759 Speaker 1: sucked over. Um, But first, you know who else got 884 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:26,120 Speaker 1: sucked over? Bridget, tell me the products and services that 885 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:31,359 Speaker 1: support this podcast. Sophie seems fine with us. Okay, we're going, 886 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:43,799 Speaker 1: Oh boy, how you doing, Bridget. I'm doing well. You're 887 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,280 Speaker 1: doing well. I'm doing well. Let's talk about the subway. 888 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,400 Speaker 1: So the period in which the subway is growing in 889 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:51,880 Speaker 1: its fastest rate is also the period this is, like 890 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,400 Speaker 1: the thirties and in the early to mid forties, in 891 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 1: which Bob Moses is centralizing power around him within the 892 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:01,759 Speaker 1: increasingly influential Parks Department, and the chief triumphs that he 893 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:03,760 Speaker 1: carries out in this period are well known to anyone 894 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,240 Speaker 1: who lives in or is even visited New York City today, 895 00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 1: particularly the well loved Jones Beach State Park. He's the 896 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,120 Speaker 1: guy who builds that ship. Um. But here's the thing 897 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:16,479 Speaker 1: that sent many a fun evening there. It's a lovely park. 898 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,319 Speaker 1: Here's the thing. Bob Moses hated the subway system, and 899 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,759 Speaker 1: he hates public transit in general. It doesn't like busses either. 900 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:25,760 Speaker 1: He never learned to drive himself. But since he's again 901 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,040 Speaker 1: he's rich, he always has like a driver, and that's 902 00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,160 Speaker 1: how he prefers to get around. And he doesn't really 903 00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,040 Speaker 1: think people should have public transportation, doesn't think it's a 904 00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:36,840 Speaker 1: great idea. So when he starts work on Jones Beach 905 00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,160 Speaker 1: in the late nineteen twenties, it opens a nine subway. 906 00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,319 Speaker 1: And this is that period again in which subway in 907 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,560 Speaker 1: public transit access is massively expanding in New York. But 908 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:50,839 Speaker 1: inside Jones's plan, moses plans for Jones Park is contained 909 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,360 Speaker 1: a major strike against the idea that poor citizens should 910 00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:56,319 Speaker 1: have access to the same parts of the state as 911 00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,160 Speaker 1: wealthy ones. And I want to quote now from a 912 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,080 Speaker 1: write up in the Yale Law Journal. Moses set forth 913 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,440 Speaker 1: specifications for bridge overpasses on Long Island which were designed 914 00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,440 Speaker 1: to hang low so that the twelve foot tall buses 915 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,680 Speaker 1: in use at the time could not fit under them. 916 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,719 Speaker 1: One consequence was to limit the access of racial minorities 917 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,600 Speaker 1: and low income groups who often use public transit to 918 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,040 Speaker 1: Jones Beach. Moses is widely acclaimed public park. Moses made 919 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,800 Speaker 1: doubly sure of his result by vetoing a proposed extension 920 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,279 Speaker 1: of the Long Island Railroad to Jones Beach. Moses biographers 921 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:26,760 Speaker 1: suggest that his decision to favor upper and middle class 922 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:28,920 Speaker 1: white people who owned cars at the expense of the 923 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,960 Speaker 1: poor and African Americans was due to his social class 924 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,799 Speaker 1: bias and racial prejudice. So he built this park and 925 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,799 Speaker 1: then makes it very difficult for black people to get there. Well, 926 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,680 Speaker 1: it's exactly like what you were saying, how like land 927 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,799 Speaker 1: use and public parks sound really great and everybody can 928 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,560 Speaker 1: get behind them, but they are also so effectively weaponized 929 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,279 Speaker 1: to you know, further racism and classism and all those 930 00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:53,160 Speaker 1: other isms that we all hate. Like it's such a 931 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,720 Speaker 1: it's such an effective way of you know, consolidating power 932 00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,480 Speaker 1: and keeping people out. And it's it's also you can 933 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:01,319 Speaker 1: see how Mark what he's doing is because he's like, 934 00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:04,719 Speaker 1: I'm not banning people from the park, right, this is 935 00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:06,239 Speaker 1: not a segregated it's in New York, you know, you're 936 00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:08,400 Speaker 1: not kind of it's not segregated here, Like, this is 937 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,400 Speaker 1: not a park in which black people are not allowed, 938 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:12,480 Speaker 1: nor is it a park that poor people are not allowed. 939 00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:14,480 Speaker 1: But it is a park that I'm going to veto 940 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,360 Speaker 1: train access to and I'm going to make it physically 941 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,840 Speaker 1: impossible for buses to reach it. And thus, as a result, 942 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,200 Speaker 1: it becomes a park that only middle class and upper 943 00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 1: class people can get to because they have the cars, 944 00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:28,920 Speaker 1: you know. Um, and that's smart. That way you get 945 00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 1: to be like, well, here in New York, we're not like, 946 00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,200 Speaker 1: we're not like they are in in in in Atlanta 947 00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,960 Speaker 1: or Dallas or anyone's like segregated racist Southern states, and 948 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,200 Speaker 1: people in the people in York love to say that 949 00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:42,160 Speaker 1: ship like, oh, like the South, they're so racist, They're 950 00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,480 Speaker 1: not here in New York. No. And every now and 951 00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:46,600 Speaker 1: then you're gonna get like, you know, some a black 952 00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:48,839 Speaker 1: family who does well and has a car, and it's like, look, 953 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:50,560 Speaker 1: they could go to Jones Beach. Of course they can 954 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:52,479 Speaker 1: go to Jones Beach. You know. It's like, so there's 955 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:57,239 Speaker 1: no problem here. Yeah, um yeah, it's cool. Uh So, 956 00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,279 Speaker 1: instead of garnering support to pass a law bann poor 957 00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,040 Speaker 1: people or people of color from the places where he 958 00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,560 Speaker 1: did not want them, Moses used his power as an 959 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:07,000 Speaker 1: architect to make it difficult for individuals to reach the 960 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,560 Speaker 1: places that he desired to exclude them from. In his 961 00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:13,160 Speaker 1: creation of Jones Beach Park, Robert Moses becomes the founder 962 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:17,440 Speaker 1: of a discipline that is today called exclusionary architecture. The 963 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,520 Speaker 1: basic idea is this, if the government cannot legally stop 964 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:24,160 Speaker 1: people from being somewhere, city planners can accomplish that same 965 00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,040 Speaker 1: goal by designing communities in such a way that it 966 00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:32,600 Speaker 1: inherently excludes undesirable people. So in Portland right now, there's 967 00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:34,640 Speaker 1: a couple of parks that like homeless people have been 968 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,200 Speaker 1: camping in and after the cops beat them up and 969 00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:40,560 Speaker 1: cleared them out, rich people in the neighborhood have illegally 970 00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,680 Speaker 1: been putting out like planters and stuff and filling them 971 00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,480 Speaker 1: with like gravel and dirt in areas where like otherwise 972 00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,279 Speaker 1: it would be possible to lay down um to claim 973 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,239 Speaker 1: to like, no, we're just trying to beautify our neighborhood 974 00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,480 Speaker 1: by putting in like plants and stuff. And it's like no, no, no, 975 00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,400 Speaker 1: you guys are illegally adding a bunch of infrastructure to 976 00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:58,719 Speaker 1: the park in order to make it more difficult. It's 977 00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,719 Speaker 1: like putting in a bench and then like illegally or 978 00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:03,880 Speaker 1: like adding in like those things in the middle of 979 00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:05,480 Speaker 1: it to stop people from sleeping on it or something 980 00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:07,480 Speaker 1: totally here and d see, they have this thing they 981 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:13,160 Speaker 1: do where they install sprinklers, but there's not really green space. 982 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,680 Speaker 1: It'll be like on concrete plazas where on howse people 983 00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:18,640 Speaker 1: just happened together and it's like, no, no, we're just 984 00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:22,879 Speaker 1: watering the concrete sidewalk constantly. Nothing nothing to see here. 985 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:26,399 Speaker 1: It's just a normal sprinkler, not on grass, and it's 986 00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:30,200 Speaker 1: obviously exclusionary architecture. Who knows, Like it's impossible to say 987 00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:32,200 Speaker 1: like we're the first people who ever did it. I'm 988 00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:34,360 Speaker 1: sure you could find examples of this in many societies 989 00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:37,600 Speaker 1: throughout history. But Robert Moses is the one who kind 990 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:39,759 Speaker 1: of like turns it into an art form, you know, 991 00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:42,320 Speaker 1: because he's good at this ship. This is not this 992 00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:44,279 Speaker 1: is not putting out a planter. This isn't crude. This 993 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:48,080 Speaker 1: is like artful designing of a city in such a 994 00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:51,400 Speaker 1: way that you both expand its green spaces and like 995 00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:55,399 Speaker 1: beautify it while also locking certain people into areas where 996 00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,879 Speaker 1: you want to keep the poor. You know. Um, he's 997 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,279 Speaker 1: very good at this thing that he's going to do. Now, 998 00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:02,759 Speaker 1: I should not hear that Moses is biographer. Robert Caro 999 00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,880 Speaker 1: is the first person who starts making these claims about Moses. 1000 00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,920 Speaker 1: He writes this massive books, like fourteen hundred pages called 1001 00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:13,440 Speaker 1: the Power Broker, which is like, after Moses's retirement kind 1002 00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:15,640 Speaker 1: of blows a hole in the guy's legacy because he 1003 00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:17,600 Speaker 1: had been seen as like the man who built New York. 1004 00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:20,040 Speaker 1: And then Carol writes this book. He wins a Pulitzer 1005 00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:23,040 Speaker 1: for it. Um, it's a pretty groundbreaking piece of reporting. 1006 00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:24,880 Speaker 1: And if you have the time to go through thirteen 1007 00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:28,240 Speaker 1: hundred pages about like this guy's life, it's it's pretty 1008 00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:33,040 Speaker 1: interesting read. Um. Now, in recent years, some individuals have 1009 00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,880 Speaker 1: sought to rehabilitate Robert Moses and and critique and because 1010 00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:40,239 Speaker 1: Caro again wins a Pulitzer, Um, there's very little that 1011 00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,359 Speaker 1: they can kind of criticize, so they'll kind of poke 1012 00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:44,560 Speaker 1: around the edges of his research to claim that, like 1013 00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:47,080 Speaker 1: he's exaggerating the degree to which this guy was, like 1014 00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,360 Speaker 1: to which this guy they're not. You can't argue that 1015 00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:51,680 Speaker 1: he wasn't racist, but you can like be like, well, actually, 1016 00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:55,320 Speaker 1: the consequences of his racism weren't as bad as Carol claims. 1017 00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:57,640 Speaker 1: And one claim that these folks will make trying to 1018 00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,720 Speaker 1: defend Robert Moses today is that Moses is his bridges 1019 00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,920 Speaker 1: were not too low for buses to pass underneath. Um, 1020 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,320 Speaker 1: and it is true that a number of the bridges 1021 00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:08,879 Speaker 1: on the route to Jones Beach Park are tall enough 1022 00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:13,279 Speaker 1: for twelve foot tall buses to pass underneath. But Thomas J. Campanella, 1023 00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,520 Speaker 1: a Cornell University historian of city planning, wrote an article 1024 00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,040 Speaker 1: for Bloomberg in two thousands seventeen where he tests all 1025 00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,640 Speaker 1: these theories once and for all. He studied twenty bridges, viaducts, 1026 00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:25,799 Speaker 1: and over passes on other parkways built elsewhere in New 1027 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:28,080 Speaker 1: York State at the time and compared them to the 1028 00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,040 Speaker 1: twenty original bridges and overpasses that Moses built for the 1029 00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:32,839 Speaker 1: Southern State Parkway, which is kind of on the way 1030 00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:35,040 Speaker 1: to the Jones Beach Park. And he finds that the 1031 00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,600 Speaker 1: clearances on all of the bridges Moses had built in 1032 00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:41,120 Speaker 1: the Southern State Parkway are way lower. Quote. The parkways 1033 00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:42,799 Speaker 1: I looked at were built in roughly the same era 1034 00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,520 Speaker 1: as the Southern State, especially Sawmill and hutch In fact, 1035 00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,120 Speaker 1: the Westchester Parkways set most of the standards for parkway 1036 00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:51,160 Speaker 1: designed for years in the United States. The lower overpasses 1037 00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:54,680 Speaker 1: on the Southern State Parkway are a substantial deviation from President. 1038 00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:57,480 Speaker 1: So He's like, if you actually look at these like 1039 00:52:57,560 --> 00:52:59,960 Speaker 1: the bridges he built in the specific area are notable 1040 00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:03,440 Speaker 1: the lower um. Now, the Washington Post quotes a guy 1041 00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:07,759 Speaker 1: named burn Ward George's, a German sociology professor, arguing back 1042 00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:12,319 Speaker 1: against this, and and George's initially had claimed like this. 1043 00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,680 Speaker 1: This Washington Post article is funny because it's talking about 1044 00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:16,719 Speaker 1: the guys who are defending Moses. And then like the 1045 00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:19,360 Speaker 1: people who have repeatedly proved that no, no, no, he 1046 00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,520 Speaker 1: did do this in in an exclusionary way. And like 1047 00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,680 Speaker 1: first the Post quotes him as saying that, like, Moses 1048 00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,000 Speaker 1: didn't build any bridges lower than his colleagues did at 1049 00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:29,480 Speaker 1: the time, Like that's a lot. He built the same 1050 00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:31,480 Speaker 1: size bridges as everyone. They were just shorter back then. 1051 00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:34,239 Speaker 1: And then when the Washington Post brings up camp in 1052 00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:36,920 Speaker 1: Ella's research and was like, no, like this guy studied 1053 00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,480 Speaker 1: them and his bridges are way shorter. Um. When they 1054 00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,760 Speaker 1: tell George's that, he responds, quote, Okay, true, the bridges 1055 00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,240 Speaker 1: were low, but each had to be built low differently. 1056 00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:47,759 Speaker 1: Moses took great care that each and every bridge was 1057 00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:51,919 Speaker 1: individually fitted into its natural context. Standardized unicity, as it were, 1058 00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:54,239 Speaker 1: was part of an artfully laid out nature. One can 1059 00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:56,520 Speaker 1: show more generally that when it came to parkway building, 1060 00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:59,600 Speaker 1: bridge building, culture was connected to a specific politics of nature. 1061 00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:02,200 Speaker 1: So first he's like, his bridges weren't any lower than 1062 00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:04,200 Speaker 1: anyone else. Is that's a myth? And then when people 1063 00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:06,880 Speaker 1: are like, well they were though, he's like, well he 1064 00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:09,640 Speaker 1: had to because it was pretty right, Like he had 1065 00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:13,080 Speaker 1: to because it looked good. Oh, and I think, I mean, 1066 00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:15,880 Speaker 1: like you're talking about how I mean, the word artful 1067 00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:17,960 Speaker 1: is the only word I could really used to describe it. 1068 00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,200 Speaker 1: But you know, I think it was I can't remember 1069 00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:24,320 Speaker 1: who it was, but um, some shitty right wing politician 1070 00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:28,120 Speaker 1: was like, oh, they're saying that the highways are racist. 1071 00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:31,719 Speaker 1: And the plausible deniability here of what he's doing of like, 1072 00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,000 Speaker 1: you know, you know, you don't have to come out 1073 00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:37,200 Speaker 1: and outright say I am trying to keep poor people 1074 00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:40,120 Speaker 1: and black people and brown people out. But because of 1075 00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:43,400 Speaker 1: the way that it's it's done, even now, people deny 1076 00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:45,600 Speaker 1: that the reality of what's going on, and it's so 1077 00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:48,080 Speaker 1: easy to deny I think it really, it really is 1078 00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:51,160 Speaker 1: an art form. Yeah, it's he's very good at it. 1079 00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:54,440 Speaker 1: And again, like when you actually challenge people and like 1080 00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,399 Speaker 1: do the reasons like again you can you can show yes, 1081 00:54:57,440 --> 00:54:59,840 Speaker 1: he obvious, like these were built with racism in my 1082 00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,840 Speaker 1: and um, and they just keep moving the goalposts like 1083 00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:06,080 Speaker 1: they do forever, and like the argument of these like 1084 00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:08,799 Speaker 1: biggots always comes down and again, not all of them 1085 00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:11,800 Speaker 1: are racially bigoted, some of them just hate the poor. Um, 1086 00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,919 Speaker 1: but the argument always comes down to, like, well, it's 1087 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,080 Speaker 1: prettier this way, right, it's prettier if we keep certain 1088 00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:20,279 Speaker 1: people out. And don't we deserve we we've spent so 1089 00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,120 Speaker 1: much money on our homes. We we deserve to have 1090 00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:24,440 Speaker 1: our home values increase. We deserve to live this with it. 1091 00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:26,719 Speaker 1: We deserve to have it be prettier. And maybe that 1092 00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:28,920 Speaker 1: means other people can't afford houses. Maybe it means the 1093 00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,719 Speaker 1: homeless crisis expands. Maybe it means that like folks are 1094 00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,520 Speaker 1: like forced into certain neighborhoods where they lack access to 1095 00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:38,200 Speaker 1: grocery stores and other kind of like necessities. Um, but 1096 00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:42,080 Speaker 1: don't we deserve to have pretty things? You know, And 1097 00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:44,359 Speaker 1: it's not pretty if they're here, it's not pretty. If 1098 00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:45,960 Speaker 1: they have housing they can afford, it's not you know, 1099 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:52,040 Speaker 1: Like that's the thing. Anyway, bridget you got any pluggable 1100 00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:55,080 Speaker 1: to plug. That's part one. Oh yeah, I guess I 1101 00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:59,200 Speaker 1: should plug my podcast. There are no girls on the internet. 1102 00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:03,120 Speaker 1: You can check out my heart radio. Um yeah. You 1103 00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:05,360 Speaker 1: can follow me on social media at Bridget Marie in 1104 00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:09,640 Speaker 1: d C or at Bridget Marie on Twitter. Well you 1105 00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:13,799 Speaker 1: can follow her and you can check out her podcasts, 1106 00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,840 Speaker 1: and eventually you're gonna be able to hear Bridget in 1107 00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:21,520 Speaker 1: a new podcast. But where we are bound by sacred 1108 00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:25,479 Speaker 1: oaths to keep that silent until now the CIA has 1109 00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:27,719 Speaker 1: a gun to my head. Um, I'm not allowed to 1110 00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:33,640 Speaker 1: say anything else but um, the CIA being Sophie. Um. 1111 00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:38,320 Speaker 1: The face that Sophie just made, I knew it was coming. 1112 00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,520 Speaker 1: That's why I was like, alright, sometimes is my fault? 1113 00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:46,600 Speaker 1: Got it? Next? Yeah, like all powerful men behind me 1114 00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:48,720 Speaker 1: as a woman that I'm blaming for things for no reason. 1115 00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,080 Speaker 1: How are we doing, Sophie. I'm gonna need like three 1116 00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:00,759 Speaker 1: weeks of their Peter process was a lot. That was 1117 00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:04,360 Speaker 1: a lot. Um, Well, thank you for coming on, Bridget. 1118 00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:07,880 Speaker 1: I'm excited to tell you more about Bobby mos S 1119 00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:11,400 Speaker 1: in part two. But um, thank you all for listening. 1120 00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:13,719 Speaker 1: I have a novel After the Revolution. You can find 1121 00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:15,760 Speaker 1: it on a k Press if you go to their website. 1122 00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:17,960 Speaker 1: You can find it on Amazon. You just just google 1123 00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:20,080 Speaker 1: After the Revolution Novel and you'll be able to buy 1124 00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:28,600 Speaker 1: it some fuckingwhere anyway. Go to hell, shit sorry. Behind 1125 00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:31,440 Speaker 1: the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media. For 1126 00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:34,320 Speaker 1: more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone 1127 00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:37,200 Speaker 1: media dot com, or check us out on the I 1128 00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:40,560 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.