1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club is presented by Apple Books. Hi, 2 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:11,719 Speaker 1: I'm Danielle Robe and welcome to Bookmarked by Reese's book Club. 3 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: This week, we're talking about sympathy for the devil. Okay, 4 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: maybe not the devil, but the wicked stepmother in Cinderella 5 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: is probably one of the most famous evil characters in fiction. 6 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 2: Right. 7 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: Well, Rachel Hawkhauser feels a little differently. Her new novel, 8 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: Lady Tremaine, is the Reese's Book Club pick for March, 9 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: and it's not just a retelling of Cinderella, it's an 10 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:46,480 Speaker 1: untelling that dares to ask what if the wicked stepmother 11 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: wasn't wicked but just a mom trying her best? And 12 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: what if a marriage isn't a happily ever after but 13 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: the beginning of a whole new narrative. So if you've 14 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: ever wondered if maybe there's another side to the story, 15 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: you are in the right place. Let's turn the page 16 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:14,119 Speaker 1: with Rachel Howkhauser. Rachel, welcome back to the club. 17 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 3: I'm so happy to be back. 18 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: I had the pleasure of talking with you earlier this 19 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,119 Speaker 1: month about your latest novel. 20 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 2: It's your debut novel, Lady Tremaine. 21 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: And before we get back into your book, I have 22 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: to ask you for your advice because your Puzzle Royalty. Okay, 23 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: you are the co founder of piece Work, which is 24 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 1: a jigsaw puzzle brand. 25 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 2: I love puzzles. 26 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: In the last few years of my life, I haven't 27 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: had as much time to dedicate to them as I 28 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: did during COVID. 29 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 2: But I need to know if. 30 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: You start your puzzles by doing the sides, or you 31 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: start in the middle, what does then expert do? 32 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 3: Okay, Well, before answering that, I have to say I've 33 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 3: never heard puzzle royalty before. Thank you. If I am royalty, 34 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 3: it is of a tiny kingdom. I don't think the 35 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 3: puzzle world is large, but I am always happy to 36 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 3: chat puzzles and to talk to another puzzler. I have 37 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 3: a puzzle set up in my living room. I'm really 38 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 3: specific about it. I like to use puzzle trays, which 39 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 3: once you start using trays, you can't go back. It's 40 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 3: it's there's no other way to do a puzzle. I'm 41 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 3: very specific about it, but I love. There's no better 42 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 3: way to end a day than you know. I have 43 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 3: a maybe a half glass of wine and a little 44 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 3: piece of chocolate and sit for my puzzle. 45 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 2: But do you go like sides out or do you 46 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 2: start in the middle? 47 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 3: Edges first always, So if you're. 48 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: Group puzzling, how do you feel about the person who 49 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: has like their own section? 50 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 3: You know, no one's ever asked me about this before, 51 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,519 Speaker 3: but I do find myself getting like my feathers ruffled. 52 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 3: And I love working out a puzzle socially. Don't get 53 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 3: me wrong, but I do. I have these feelings like 54 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 3: if I've gathered the pieces for a certain section and 55 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 3: then someone else works and them, there's like a little 56 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 3: bit of disappointment, not enough to voice, but but I've 57 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 3: had that feeling before. 58 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: I asked you that, because I don't know that I 59 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: can do a group project puzzle. 60 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 3: I think it's a really nice social tool if you're 61 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 3: at a family event and maybe you're with family members 62 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 3: that you don't you don't have as much in common with, 63 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 3: or you feel differently about things that you know happening 64 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 3: in the world, like at least there's something to do 65 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 3: and talk about between you and so I think puzzles 66 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 3: are great. I've also bring them to dinner parties or 67 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 3: you know, a weekend away with friends. 68 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: Okay, well, I want to find out how you applied 69 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: the same brain, your puzzle brain, to your book. In 70 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: our last conversation, you said the book is an untelling, 71 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: not a retelling of Cinderella. 72 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 2: I really loved that word. 73 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: So there is something classic about the story that you 74 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: felt needed an absolutely new perspective. What was the excuse 75 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: upon missing puzzle piece to Lady Tremaine's story? 76 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 3: You know, for me, it was really her interiority. I 77 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 3: think readers love a complicated women in books these days, 78 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 3: but I felt like that particular character hadn't been examined 79 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 3: in the same way, and She's really what came to 80 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 3: me first, before the plot or anything else. I just 81 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 3: I had a really clear picture of her voice, this 82 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 3: house she was living in that you know, she had 83 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 3: strip sold her belongings and her jewels so that she could, 84 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 3: you know, keep running her household. So that was the 85 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 3: first idea that, you know, the rest was inspired by. 86 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: What I really found interesting about this is that Cinderella 87 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: predates Disney by two thousand years, and there are hundreds 88 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 1: of variants all over the world from different cultures. There 89 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: are dozens of film adaptations. Off the top of my head, 90 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: we have the Brandy version, the Hillary Duff version, the 91 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: Selena Gomez version, the Camila Cabeo version. What do you 92 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: think speaks so universally to people in this story. 93 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 3: I think it's filled with archetypes. I mean, you're right, 94 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 3: Cinderella dates back to ancient Greece, probably earlier, but that's 95 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 3: the story of Rhodipus is the first one on record. 96 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 3: There's two ways of looking at it. I think that 97 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 3: there's in some senses, the Western European versions of Cinderella, 98 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 3: which I think inform our cultural perception of the fairy 99 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 3: tale position. Marriage is a happy ending, but I think 100 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 3: women needed marriage for security and earlier points in time, 101 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 3: I find that to be outdated now. And you know, 102 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 3: I really wanted to create a happy ending that was 103 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 3: more inclusive of different types of outcomes for people, and 104 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 3: maybe that can include marriage. But I think there's you know, 105 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 3: so much more. If you give your characters agency, then 106 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 3: it expands that possibility for them beyond just one really 107 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 3: prescriptive version of it. 108 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: In reading this book and then in talking like, I 109 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: had our previous conversation in my head while I was reading, 110 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: and you said, you felt so clear and so connected 111 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: to the evil step mother. I'm wondering if Cinderella the 112 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: story started looking to you differently when you became a 113 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: mom yourself. 114 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, I mean I grew up enthralled with the 115 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 3: animated version of Cinderella. It really informed my viewpoint of 116 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 3: the world as a little girl, and I still love it. 117 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 3: I mean, the set, direction and the design of it 118 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 3: is just magical. But becoming a mother of young girls 119 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 3: and actually getting married myself where I realized marriage is 120 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 3: in a finish line. It's actually the beginning of something. 121 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 3: You know that it's it's the start, and so that 122 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 3: that message that that's the ending I felt, and that 123 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 3: that's the best way to get to that ending, and 124 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 3: that is the only happy ever after that is available 125 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 3: to little girls. I you know, all a confluence of 126 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 3: all these things made me feel like, let's do a 127 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 3: new version of the fairy tale, the one that I 128 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,119 Speaker 3: wish I had had and one that I'm really happy 129 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 3: to get to my daughters. 130 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: Well, we talked about this a few weeks ago, but 131 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: you got the idea for this story while you were pregnant, 132 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: you were caregiving, you were basically single parenting, and you 133 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: wrote about a woman fighting for survival. I'm wondering if 134 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: writing this was more therapeutic or more rebellious for you. 135 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 3: Absolutely therapeutic, I think on multiple levels. You know, I 136 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 3: was in a period of grief myself because my life 137 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 3: had suddenly stopped looking like what I expected it too. 138 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 3: And I should say my husband's doing well, and I 139 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 3: think that's very important to share. Sometimes I forget to 140 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 3: say that, but you know, it was really hard to 141 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 3: accept how quickly things had changed. And I think Lady 142 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 3: Tremaine is in a similar position of similar to the 143 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 3: Disney version that we all know. If you really think 144 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 3: about the evil stepmother, she's been widowed twice over. She's 145 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 3: had a lot of loss in her life, and so 146 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 3: it made it easy to put myself in her shoes 147 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 3: and think about what it feels like when your life 148 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 3: looks so different what you had signed up for. 149 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: The book did make me start thinking about all the 150 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: other characters that I had been told were villains over 151 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 1: the course of my childhood. I kind of think you're 152 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: giving villains a new name, a new perspective in your writing. 153 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 3: I think the book is also an argument that Lady 154 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 3: Tremand's not a villain, and there are certainly villains out there. 155 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 3: I'm not saying that all villains deserve a second look, 156 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 3: but when you look at that character versus ones that 157 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 3: are actively trying to harm people or take something, you know, 158 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 3: she was really just a product of the world she 159 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 3: lived in and the time she was in and trying 160 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 3: to advocate, you know, for her children. 161 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 1: I want to talk about the main character in your 162 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: book who her name is Ethel, which is Lady Tremaine. 163 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: And she she's a little scary, I'm gonna be honest. 164 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: She gives off strong mammager energy. I feel like Chris 165 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: Jenner has nothing on her. Have you harnessed your inner 166 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: Ethyl to get things done at all? 167 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 3: Oh? I think I can scare people a little bit. Yes, 168 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 3: I mean I really relate to Ethel in a lot 169 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 3: of ways. I think I felt connected to her. So 170 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 3: I don't know what that says about me, but I 171 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 3: think that answers your question. Well. 172 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,079 Speaker 1: In my mind, I had a few questions I was 173 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: thinking about, which is is she evil or was she 174 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: just married and exhausted? Was she mean or was she 175 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: just preennially disappointed? 176 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 3: This is a personal I think it's up for every 177 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 3: reader to answer that for themselves and that's the fun 178 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 3: of it. But for me personally, I have a lot 179 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 3: of empathy for her, and I even have a lot 180 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 3: of empathy. Yeah, I have a lot of empathy for 181 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 3: the other villain. There's multiple villains of this story, but 182 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 3: the other female character that you can kind of come 183 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 3: to see as a villain, I haven't a deep seated 184 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 3: empathy for her as well. 185 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: There's this scene where she marches up to the castle 186 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: as a common or demanding invitations to the ball, and 187 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: then there's another moment where she orchestrates a chance meeting 188 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 1: quote unquote, yeah, the Prince. In some ways, I like 189 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: that she's a woman that goes after what she wants. 190 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: Did that feel sort of inspiring to you? 191 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 3: Yes, because I think that's actually where I relate to 192 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 3: her the least. I'm more cautious in my personal life 193 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 3: and maybe hyper aware of what you should and shouldn't 194 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 3: do in a way that I'm not necessarily proud of. 195 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 3: But I really I think it's important in a book, 196 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 3: when we're reading a narrative and engaging with it, you 197 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 3: need to have a character who is taking action, whether 198 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 3: or not it's the right action, you know, before they've 199 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 3: learned their lessons. It's often not, but you need that 200 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 3: to have a purpulsive story that moves forward. 201 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 2: You mentioned the other women in the book. 202 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: So we have Ethel, who is widowed and struggling, and 203 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: then we have Queen Sigarette, who is the literal queen, 204 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: and they're the two main mothers in the book, but 205 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,839 Speaker 1: they're also frenemies, which I really loved that. 206 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 2: I like their relationship. 207 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: There are two women going after the same goal but 208 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: in very different circumstances, and it reminded me of Lady 209 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: Bridgerton and Lady Featherington. 210 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 2: Who are you're nodding? 211 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: Who are two widows both trying to marry their kids 212 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: off but through very different means. If you resonated with Ethel, 213 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: why provide this alternate foil? What is being revealed in 214 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 1: their comparison? 215 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 3: You know? It felt I really wanted to look at 216 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 3: all different forms of relationships in a woman's life. And 217 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 3: so you have Ethel's relationship with her found family, the 218 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 3: people that live in her household, as well as her 219 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 3: biological family. And I think female friendships are complicated, or 220 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 3: they can be, they're not always and it just felt 221 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 3: like a more realistic portrayaler way to show a women's 222 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 3: inner life. Also kind of showcasing Ethyl as a villain 223 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 3: or no longer a villain. Really useful to have something 224 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 3: to compare it to, you know, what happens when Maybe 225 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:05,839 Speaker 3: this is taken too far because I think there are 226 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,439 Speaker 3: similarities between the two women, but you can see how 227 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:12,959 Speaker 3: they are sort of guided to different choices by their 228 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 3: own internal values by the. 229 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,559 Speaker 1: End of the book, and both of those are magnified 230 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: by each other, which is so helpful. 231 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 3: Yes, their dialogue was so fun to write. I mean, 232 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 3: another interviewer described it as bit cheat. I was like, 233 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 3: I hadn't thought of that word, but I'm yeah, that's it. Yeah, 234 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 3: these are two women, you know, bitching it out and 235 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 3: it's it's kind of fun. It's got you know, reality 236 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 3: TV energy to it. 237 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with you. The convos were very real 238 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: housewives for anybody who hasn't read it yet. Well, speaking 239 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: of all of the different women's experiences in this book, 240 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: there are barely any men in the book. 241 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: Was that deliberate or just realistic? 242 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 3: I wasn't deliberately gluting men, but I think I was 243 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 3: decentering them from the story and what I wanted to 244 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 3: say with them, but you have you know, in the 245 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 3: same way that cigarette and Ethyl are kind of foils, 246 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 3: you get that with the men in the book too, 247 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 3: like we get to experience different versions of masculinity and 248 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 3: how they show up in the women's lives, and so 249 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 3: it still felt important to conclude. 250 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: Them before we move on from the inner world of 251 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: the book. I have to shout out one of my 252 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: favorite characters. She could be my favorite character, Lucy the Falcon. 253 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, she's great. 254 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: I thought that Lucy was a person at first because 255 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: of how detailed the descriptions were, and then it took 256 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: me a minute I realized Lucy's a bird. 257 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 3: Lucy is a bird. She's a peregrine falcon. 258 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: But she's very personified. What did Lucy do as a 259 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: bird that she couldn't do as a person, for you, like, 260 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: why make her a falcon? 261 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 3: You know? I think that was a reaction to I 262 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 3: wanted to give Ethyl, Lady Termain more opportunities to interact 263 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 3: with her environment and the world around her. And it's 264 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 3: sort of traditional for these villain characters to have like 265 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 3: a side kick or a pet, and to me, the 266 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 3: falcon made sense because I didn't this character would never 267 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 3: have a you know, fur ay lap animal. She would 268 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 3: have something that was useful and utilitarian, and that that's 269 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 3: what Ethel does, is she hunts with her bird to 270 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 3: provide for her family. And it was the perfect kind 271 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 3: of two sizes of the same coin of it if 272 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 3: she was able to go out there and provide. But 273 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 3: she also has this kind of deep connection to the animal, 274 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 3: and there's this symbolism of falcon ray is so deep. 275 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 3: There's so much to work with there. So as soon 276 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 3: as they had the idea, it was, you know, there 277 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 3: was no other path to go down. 278 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 2: What's the symbolism? 279 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 3: I mean, they're used to symbol all different kinds of 280 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 3: things historically in stories, a lot of regality and speed 281 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 3: and a fierceness. But for me, there was something really 282 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 3: interesting about them being birds of prey. And you know, 283 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 3: there's definitely a theme of predation versus prey going on 284 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 3: throughout the book, especially with what happens to the characters, 285 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 3: and so it just really tied into, I would say, 286 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 3: the climax of the book itself. 287 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, Rachel, I ask every single author we have 288 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 2: on here the same question, And I used to ask 289 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 2: people what they have bookmarked this week. 290 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: It could be a quote, it could be a song, 291 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: but I decided to switch it up. So I'm hoping 292 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: you'll be game. I want to ask you, what are 293 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: you so obsessed with right now that you could write 294 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: a book about it? 295 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 3: Okay, So I have two answers to that. I'm already 296 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 3: working on my second book, and it's in a cowboy ving. 297 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 3: So I've gone deep into cowboy research, which has been 298 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 3: really fun. But my latest weird hobby that makes me 299 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 3: feel older than I am is that I've gotten into 300 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 3: blue flow pottery, which is a Regency era. I probably 301 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 3: have this wrong. Anyone who's actually into this is going 302 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 3: to crack me. But this is a very recent hobby. 303 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 3: But I started collecting these blue and white plates and 304 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 3: because I want to put them up in my dining room, 305 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 3: and so it's just kind of fun to learn about 306 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 3: something new and obscure. And it also my mom collected 307 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 3: a different certain type of plate when I was a kid. 308 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 3: So maybe we just are, you know, destined to repeat 309 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 3: our patterns. But that's been a fun thing. I don't 310 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 3: know that I write a whole book about it, but 311 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 3: maybe I could pull them in as a prop. 312 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,199 Speaker 1: My mom always says that apple trees make apples, so 313 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: I think it makes sense that you are also collecting plates. 314 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 3: Yeah here, I am collecting plates. 315 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: Yeah okay, Well, I want to talk more about you 316 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: and your background. I was so excited to hear that 317 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: you have a master's in fiction from the University of 318 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 1: Southern California, and over the years there are short stories 319 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 1: that have been sprinkled around that you've written, but a 320 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 1: whole novel is a very different undertaking. What was the 321 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: day that you decided to write this book? Who did 322 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: you tell and where did you begin? 323 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 3: My pathway into writing started earlier because I had a 324 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,959 Speaker 3: book that I didn't sell, so you know that it 325 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 3: was a longer journey than just starting this book. But 326 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 3: when I decided to write Lady Tremaine, it was I 327 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 3: think I had a sentence that I had written in 328 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 3: a notebook from her point of view and her voice, 329 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 3: that I sat on for a couple of months at least, 330 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 3: just marinating and wondering when I was going to go 331 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 3: back to that idea. You know, I wish I could 332 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 3: remember the exact moment I remember more clearly, like when 333 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 3: I had first started working on it, and I was 334 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 3: my husband that I told first I was going to 335 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 3: do it. He's always been a big champion of my writing, 336 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 3: so he encouraged me, thankfully, and here we are. 337 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 2: That's so sweet. Did you begin with an outline? Did 338 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 2: you begin diving into a chapter? What was your first step? 339 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 3: So I've learned in the writing community they talk about 340 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 3: plotters versus panthers, which I didn't know those terms. But 341 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,880 Speaker 3: a pantser someone who writes by the seat of their pants, 342 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 3: and a plotter someone who plans it all out. And 343 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 3: I fall pretty squarely in between the two. I like 344 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 3: to write my way in and learn the characters and 345 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 3: really figure out what it is I have to say, 346 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 3: and then once I have some words under my belt, 347 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 3: I sit down and kind of chart out my path 348 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 3: across the book, which involves some editing of what I 349 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 3: have already, And that was exactly how I approached leech Main. 350 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 2: Did you draw inspiration from other authors or books who 351 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 2: took on some of these classic retellings. 352 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,120 Speaker 3: You know, less retellings? To be honest, Helen McDonald's HS 353 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 3: for Hawk was really influential in the writing past. That book, 354 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 3: it's so beautifully written, it's about grief and it's about falconry. 355 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 3: And I had done a lot of research on falconry 356 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 3: before I picked it up. I had taken a workshop 357 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 3: and read, you know, three hundred year old falconry manuals. 358 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 3: But she brought it to life for me in a 359 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 3: way that, you know, the way I wrote about birds 360 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 3: in the book is completely indebted to her. And then 361 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 3: I have my very cliche Jane Austen answer, which is, 362 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 3: you know, pride and prejudice, you know, continues to be 363 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 3: an influence over the years and me and every other writer. 364 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 2: Have you gone falconing? 365 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 3: I so I've done a workshop, I've held the bird 366 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 3: and have them, you know, take off from my glove 367 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 3: and come. 368 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 2: Back to it. 369 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 3: But that's it's a little bit. Yeah, it's very cool. 370 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 1: They're much larger and I would say scarier help close. 371 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 3: They're they're kind of like dinosaurs. I mean when you're 372 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:55,199 Speaker 3: looking them in the eye, and their talents are so 373 00:20:55,520 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 3: powerful and sharp, and it's really there's think primorial about 374 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 3: them for sure. 375 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: So I know that you said this is an untelling, 376 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: not a retelling, but I am curious if you have 377 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: a favorite retelling of Cinderella. 378 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:15,439 Speaker 3: I loved Ella Enchanted the book as a tween, and 379 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 3: I loved ever After as a teenager, the Drew Barrymore movie. 380 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 3: So I think I would pick one of those. But 381 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 3: I look at Cinderella as every version is a retelling, 382 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 3: because there's so many different versions and we don't really 383 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 3: know where it originated. 384 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I guess when we think about them as films, 385 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: every actress sort of brings their own spin to it 386 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:38,479 Speaker 1: and different energy. 387 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 3: Yeah. 388 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, Rachel. 389 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: I loved the imagery in the opening and closing lines 390 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: of your book. They felt like two moments where you 391 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 1: were speaking directly to me, directly to the reader. I 392 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: want to start with the opening of the book. Do 393 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: you mind reading it for us? 394 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 3: Sure? I've been warned to be wary of strangers in 395 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 3: the woods since I was a little girl. A person alone, unfamiliar, 396 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 3: hidden in the dapple darkness is not to be trusted, 397 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 3: and certainly the woods can hide the sorts of people 398 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 3: you'd rather not encounter. Outlaws and outcasts, gruesomely mutilated pariahs, 399 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 3: those with fingers taken for thieving, lips and tongues cut 400 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 3: up for lying, flesh rotting for submission to disease. But 401 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 3: just as shadows serve to hide and disguise, they also 402 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 3: provide privacy in solitude and if you look carefully beauty, 403 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 3: the darkness of the woods offers a break from watchful 404 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 3: eyes and rules to follow in stiffened skirts and the 405 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 3: never ending etiquette of being a woman in the world 406 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 3: for a few short hours of the day. I've always 407 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 3: considered it a fair trade. Darkness for Freedom. 408 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: I got chills again when you read it, Darkness for Freedom, 409 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: it feels well. Instead of me telling you how I feel, 410 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: how do you feel? How did you feel when you 411 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 1: wrote it? 412 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 3: When I'm writing, I feel like I have an internal metronome, 413 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:11,120 Speaker 3: and it's almost like writing music. I feel like there's 414 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 3: a certain pattern or rhythm and message I'm trying to 415 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 3: get across, and I almost feel like a translator in 416 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 3: a way of getting that down onto paper. And I 417 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 3: know and I don't have it quite right, and sometimes 418 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 3: I'm just searching for the right words to hit that rhythm. 419 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 3: So this this felt The rhythm of this feels right 420 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 3: to me. 421 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 2: There are a lot of points in this book where 422 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 2: you're writing felt lyrical, and so it makes so much 423 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 2: sense to me now. 424 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 3: That you said that, thank you. 425 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a beautiful way of describing it. I think 426 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 1: this book feels like a fable. I know you wanted 427 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: it to feel real, so I don't mean that, and no, 428 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 1: I'll take that thank you, But I say it in 429 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: the sense that I think there is something to be learned. 430 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering what you are warning the reader about 431 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 1: as they venture into this story. 432 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,239 Speaker 3: You know, there's I think there's so many messages in 433 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 3: this book, and I'm kind of laugh at myself because 434 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 3: I thought I was being really subtle about them. But 435 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 3: as more and more people read the book, it's become 436 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 3: very apparent that it's not at all subtle. So the 437 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 3: jokes on me. But I think one of the biggest 438 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 3: messages in the book, or something that I warned the 439 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 3: reader about from fairly early on, is just this idea 440 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 3: of performance. You know, so much of femininity, being a 441 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 3: woman or mother in the world is about what we project, 442 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 3: how we perform, you know, living up to the expectations 443 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 3: of the world around us. And I would like for myself, 444 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 3: my girls, you know, any any woman that this resonates with, 445 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 3: it would like for them to feel a bit of 446 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 3: permission and taking a step backwards from that and listening 447 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 3: to it comes from within versus what is prescribed from without. 448 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: Rachel, I think so many great writers have universal takeaways, 449 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 1: and so you were successful in the subtlety thank you 450 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: and speaking of insides and outsides, the last line makes 451 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 1: me think of that. Will you read the last line 452 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: for us? This is truly my favorite line in the book. 453 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,439 Speaker 3: It's also my favorite line in the book. And I 454 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 3: encourage people to not read ahead when I say that, 455 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 3: because I think it lands so much better when you 456 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 3: get there on your own. And it also feels personal. 457 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 3: It feels like a message from me to little girls, 458 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 3: into my little girls. You do not need to be afraid. 459 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 3: You do not have to be good. You do not 460 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 3: need to hide your fleshy interiors behind a care pace 461 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 3: of frill and lace. Life is not meant for measurement. 462 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 3: There's but one beat to heat. Live like this, and 463 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 3: you will know with certainty you are the scariest thing 464 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 3: in the woods. 465 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 2: How did you think of that last sentence? 466 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 3: I thought of it before I wrote it, like months before, 467 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 3: and I was writing towards it as the last sentence 468 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 3: of the book, not from the beginning, but you know, 469 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,360 Speaker 3: as I got I think two thirds of the way 470 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 3: into the manuscript, I think because I really appreciate and 471 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 3: I think it's satisfying in books to think about before 472 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 3: and afters and mirror images, and the book starts that way, 473 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 3: sets up, you know, thinking about what's scary in the woods, 474 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 3: and that's also such a trope of fairy tales. So 475 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 3: it just felt like the intuitive, natural place to conclude 476 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 3: the story. 477 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,439 Speaker 1: But when you thought of the line months ahead, if 478 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: I can get into your brain for a little bit, 479 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: how do you think of it? And were you, I guess, 480 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: writing to your daughters or is that something you had 481 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: felt and maybe learned later on and wanted them to 482 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: know earlier. 483 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 3: It's interesting that you asked that because it's actually it 484 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 3: goes into second person. It says you are the scariest 485 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 3: person in the woods, and that's not the voice that 486 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 3: the whole book is written in, so that and I 487 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 3: really wanted it to end on that line, you are 488 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 3: the scariest thing in the woods, So I had to 489 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 3: think about how to get there and shift perspective. So 490 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 3: that made sense. So I think in that sense, yes, 491 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 3: it was a message I wanted to impart and I 492 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 3: think to me, you asked earlier about if this book 493 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 3: was therapy or rebellion when we talked before, and that 494 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 3: is my moment of rebellion, right, like I think the 495 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 3: books started as therapy but ends up as rebellion. 496 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 2: Wow. I really love that phraming. 497 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I felt like the difference between the opening 498 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 1: line and the last line are part of this transformation 499 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:12,919 Speaker 1: and a perspective shift. And it's like, how we're discussing 500 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: this retelling being a shift is how we view the 501 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: character of Lady Tremaine as we grow. 502 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 2: We don't need to be scared of the world. The 503 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 2: world should be scared of us. 504 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: But you did it now that I'm hearing you lyrically 505 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: like you did it poetically. 506 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 3: Thank you. Yeah. I mean sometimes it's subconscious, you know not. 507 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 3: But in this case, you know, as I said before, 508 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 3: it was something I was like, I gotta get there, 509 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 3: I gotta find a way to land this plane. 510 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: So when I read a book, I always look at 511 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: the dedication and in the acknowledgments multiple times, mostly because 512 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: I'm just so curious who means something to the author. 513 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: And also I have this deep belief that when we 514 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: bring anything amazing into the world. It took so many 515 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: people pouring into us, like it's never a self made effort, 516 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: And you say in the acknowledgments, despite my mother's best efforts, 517 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: I was enthralled with the folk tale as a child. 518 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: It was only as an adult and through mothering my 519 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: own daughters, that I found the need to revisit a 520 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: tale that, across centuries, languages and cultures, has continued to 521 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: tell young women that if they are beautiful, nice, and 522 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: follow the rules, they may be lucky enough to be 523 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: picked by a prince. If you've made it this far, 524 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: you know exactly how I've come to feel about that. 525 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: I don't know if every woman can relate, but my 526 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: guess is almost to every woman can relate to that statement. 527 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: What kind of agency do you hope readers take away 528 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: from this? 529 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 3: I mean you asked me at the beginning of the 530 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 3: month what I wanted people to think about before they 531 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 3: read the book and going into it, And I think 532 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 3: it's because I wanted them to look at their own 533 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 3: relationship with the fairy tale. For me, this was a 534 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 3: very formative fairy tale. It really really impacted my perspective 535 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 3: on romance and partnership, and I had to do a 536 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 3: lot of work to dismantle it, Which isn't at all 537 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 3: say I'm against romance or partnership or that I don't 538 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 3: believe in them. It's just that I wanted my perspective 539 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 3: on them to be earned and innate versus prescribed. 540 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: If I'm hearing you correctly, what you're saying is that 541 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: the agency is that you are of sound mind making 542 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: the choice whatever choice is right for you, and not 543 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: just making a choice based on what society has told you. 544 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think agency in and of itself is 545 00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 3: a happy ending. 546 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: Said well, in a world of fairy tales like you 547 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: really are supposed to have a happy ending, how did 548 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: you push back against that narrative by focusing on an 549 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: older woman starting over? 550 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 3: I think I gave Ethel a kind of happy ending 551 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 3: of her own. I don't. I don't think we're taught 552 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 3: that women in middle age can have happy endings. Right, 553 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 3: They're not intuitively connected to the fairytale romance that we've 554 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 3: been discussing. So I wanted to give her a satisfying ending. 555 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 3: I didn't want it to be connected to, you know, 556 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 3: sailing off into the sunset and the carriage after getting married. 557 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 3: But it goes back to what we talked about with agency. 558 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:43,719 Speaker 3: She has a sense of agency in the end, and 559 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 3: that means that she can pursue her version of a 560 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 3: happy ending. So even though I'm dismantling the traditional happily 561 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 3: I were after there's there's a whole world out there 562 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 3: for us to choose from the world is our oyster. 563 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, And I think that's a good point 564 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: because a lot of happy endings end with eighteen year 565 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: olds starting their life. 566 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah. 567 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 2: Did you watch the Sex and the City? What is 568 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 2: it called? In just like that? Did you watch? 569 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 3: I saw the first season, so. 570 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: In the I think it's the third season and it's 571 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: the end of the series. 572 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 2: Sarah Jessica Parker. 573 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: The last scene is like she ends up alone and 574 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: she's writing, which is kind of how we started. 575 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and people were. 576 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: So upset, But I don't know how I felt about it, 577 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: Like I wanted her to find love and also that's 578 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: not the point, Like the point was that she found 579 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: love in herself. 580 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I there's an interesting corollary there. This book 581 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 3: has not yet been compared to Sex and the City 582 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 3: in any way, but You've done it successfully. Now I 583 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 3: need to see that season. 584 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: Oh I can make anything correlate to sex and the city, 585 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: I think. Okay, So, speaking of happy endings, we are 586 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: at the end of our conversation. But now that your 587 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: book is out, are you in your happily ever after? 588 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 2: Right now? Has this given you what you've been looking for? 589 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 3: Yeah? I like to joke that this is my fairy 590 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 3: tale ending. This is my Cinderella story. Quite literally, I've 591 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 3: always wanted to publish a book and make a career 592 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 3: of it, and I am so grateful and excited that 593 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:25,479 Speaker 3: I get to keep doing this. 594 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: Well, I'm grateful too because I loved your writings. So 595 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: I can't wait to continue reading your words. And before 596 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: you leave us, I want to do a little speed 597 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: read with you. 598 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 2: We're going to put. 599 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: Sixty seconds on the clock. Oh no, see just how 600 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: many rapid fire literary questions we can get through? 601 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 2: Okay? 602 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, what other fairy tale do you think needs 603 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: a retelling. 604 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 3: Little mermaid? She gives up her voice for a man. 605 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 2: Mary for love or Mary for leverage? 606 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 3: Love? But keep your head on your shoulders? 607 00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 2: Would you survive a royal court? 608 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 3: Absolutely thrive? 609 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 2: Yes? 610 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: What fairy tale is the most toxic sleepy beauty. 611 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:08,879 Speaker 3: There's some consent issues. 612 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 2: There, agreed, which Disney mom deserved better? 613 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 3: Pr every stepmother. They're all positioned as it was a 614 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 3: way to other bad moms, you know, and separate them 615 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 3: from the concept of motherhood. 616 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,399 Speaker 2: Are we retiring the picked by a prince narrative for good? 617 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 3: I hope? So why also, might hear agreed? 618 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 2: What's a fairytale trope that you would ban forever? 619 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: Well? 620 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 3: I think, as we've been discussing, just having just one 621 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 3: version of a happy. 622 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 2: Ending haunted manner in the woods or big castle on 623 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 2: a hill. 624 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 3: Okay, I'm cheating. I'm picking both because it's like city country. 625 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 3: You need your alone time in the haunted manner and 626 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,280 Speaker 3: then you go to a party at the castle. 627 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 1: Obviously, it's also very rachel coated, like you can have 628 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: it all. 629 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, that's an interesting I'm going to process that 630 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 3: that's rachel coated, but I don't disagree. 631 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,919 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Rachel, and congrats. We really loved 632 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:06,360 Speaker 1: the book. 633 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:08,839 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. This has been a joy 634 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 3: and a delight. 635 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: Okay, friends, before you go, it's that time of the 636 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: month when we're counting down to the big announcement, the 637 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: April Reese's Book Club Pick. I already can't wait, and 638 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 1: I'm excited to share that our partners at Apple Books 639 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: are once again offering a free book drop, where they 640 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: are giving away up to one thousand e books of 641 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: the current pick. It's part of the Spring's most anticipated 642 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: collection from Apple Books, which you can check out at 643 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 1: Apple dot co slash Best of Spring. Now for our 644 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,439 Speaker 1: monthly game that might give the keen readers out there 645 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: a little advanced hint. It's called Two Clues and a Lie. 646 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: I'm going to share three phrases with you. Two of 647 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 1: them are deeply connected to the book, and one purely 648 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: a distraction. 649 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 2: Okay, here we go. The first phrase is. 650 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: Inter galactic connection, the second is the season of yearning. 651 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 1: The third and final throne for a time loop. So 652 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,320 Speaker 1: which of these things does not belong? And do the 653 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: two clues remaining tip you off to. 654 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 2: The April Pick. 655 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: If you have a guest, let me know, leave me 656 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,359 Speaker 1: a voice memo at five zero one two nine one 657 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,439 Speaker 1: three three seven nine. We'll only be releasing clues here 658 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: on the podcast moving forward, so make sure to tune 659 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: back in for more future hints. If you want to 660 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: be among the one thousand people to get a code 661 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 1: and redeem a free ebook, all you have to do 662 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 1: is follow Apple Books at Apple Books and Reese's book 663 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,240 Speaker 1: Club at Reese's book Club on Instagram to get notified 664 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: about next month's free book drop. That's it for this 665 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 1: episode of Bookmarked by Reese's book Club. Our phone line 666 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: is now open, so if you want to go nineties 667 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 1: on us, give us a call at one five zero 668 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,920 Speaker 1: one two nine to one three three. That's one five 669 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: zero one two nine one three three seven nine, share 670 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:10,719 Speaker 1: your literary hot takes, your book recommendations, questions about the 671 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: monthly pick, or let us know what you think about 672 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: the episode you just heard. 673 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,879 Speaker 2: And who knows, you might just hear yourself in our. 674 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: Next episode, so don't overthink it, give us a ring, 675 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: and if you want more, come hang with us. Reese's 676 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: book Club is on Instagram serving up books, good vibes, 677 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: and all the behind the scenes stuff you love. 678 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 2: And I'm at Danielle Robe rob a y. 679 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 1: So come say hi and please seriously DM me because 680 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: I actually read them and I love hearing what you 681 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: think about the episodes, and don't Forget to Follow Bookmarked 682 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 1: by Reese's book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 683 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,800 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen, We'll see you in the next chapter. 684 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 1: Bookmarked is a production of Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts. 685 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,800 Speaker 1: Executive produced by Reese Witherspoon and me Danielle Robe. Production 686 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 1: by Acast Creative Studios. Our producers are Mattie, Brittany Martinez 687 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: and Sarah Schleied. Our editor is Carmen Borca Carrillo. Our 688 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: production assistant is Avery Loftis. Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder 689 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: are executive producers for a Cast Creative Studios. 690 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:14,280 Speaker 2: Maureene Polo and Reese. 691 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 1: Witherspoon are executive producers for Hello Sunshine. Olga Kaminwha, Kristin Perla, 692 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 1: Ashley Rappaport and Sarah Kernerman are associate producers for Reese's 693 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 1: book Club, and Ali Perry is executive producer for iHeart Podcasts.