1 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: My guest today is doctor Debra So, a neuroscientist who 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: specializes in human sexuality and biological explanations for behavior. As 4 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: a journalist, she writes about technology, internet, subcultures, health, and 5 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: the politicization of science. Her writing has appeared in Harper's Magazine, 6 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: The Wall Street Journal, The Los Angeles Times, The Globe 7 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: and Mail, and many other publications. Her first book, The 8 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: End of Gender, has been translated into six languages and 9 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,480 Speaker 1: was featured in the Daily Wire film What Is a Woman. 10 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: Her new book is Sextinction, The Decline of Sex and 11 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: the Future of Intimacy. So nice to have you on, Deborah. 12 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. 13 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: Longtime fan of yours, and I've always enjoyed how you 14 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: make scientific concepts understandable. 15 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 2: I feel like two regular non science see people. I 16 00:00:58,960 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: feel like me. 17 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: What's going on that people aren't having sex anymore? 18 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 3: Well, thanks so much for your kind words, and I've 19 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 3: been a huge fan of yours as well, so I'm. 20 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 2: Very excited to get to speak with you. 21 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 3: So with sex Stinction, my latest book, I was curious 22 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 3: to see whether this concept of the sex recession is 23 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 3: real because I've been hearing a lot about how people 24 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 3: were not having as much sex as previously, and at 25 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:23,960 Speaker 3: the time I thought this was overblown and that people 26 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 3: were just creating a moral panic out of nothing. There 27 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 3: was a study that came out in twenty sixteen that 28 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 3: showed that Americans were having less sex than ever before, 29 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,479 Speaker 3: and this was the case for everyone, all age cohorts 30 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 3: didn't matter if you were married or single. But what 31 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 3: was most interesting was that this was especially pronounced in 32 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 3: younger generations, so millennials, and this was expected to continue 33 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 3: on in Gen Z and so since then, multiple studies 34 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 3: have come out showing the same trend, and more specifically, 35 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 3: the number that I keep seeing is that one in 36 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 3: three men and one in five women have not had 37 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 3: sex in the past year, and again this is especially 38 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 3: prominent among millennials and Gen Z. With sextinction, I each 39 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 3: chapter is looking at a different potential explanation as to 40 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 3: why this is happening. And my interest in sexual inactivity 41 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 3: or sexlessness is partially because I used to study sex scientifically, 42 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 3: but also because I think sex is a reflection of 43 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 3: community connection and emotional intimacy, and so people are not 44 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 3: interested in having sex, then what is taking its place 45 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 3: and what is causing this disinterest? 46 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: Right? So on this show, there's like we do an 47 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: advice segment from time to time, and I really thought 48 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: all of the advice questions I would get would be 49 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: how to meet a guy, what I had to do 50 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: in this relationship situation. But the great majority of questions 51 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: that I get, I mean I'm talking like over eighty 52 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: five percent, I would say, are about friendship and how 53 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: to make friends and how to talk to people and 54 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: how to you know, I've moved to this new town, 55 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: how do I make a friend? But I've lived in 56 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: this city my whole life? How do I make friends? 57 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: I think that's the first step for people? But do 58 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 1: you see that in terms of your sex research? Is 59 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: it used to be we didn't need to have friends 60 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: in order to go have sex, right? 61 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 2: So why is this now the case? 62 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: How come we've moved to the situation where people don't 63 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: know how to talk to each other and also don't 64 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: know how to meet people to have sex with. 65 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 3: I think screens and dating apps have played a big 66 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 3: role in this. Social media as well has really warped 67 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 3: the way people perceive themselves and how they perceive the 68 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 3: opposite sex, and how they think they should go about 69 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 3: approaching the opposite sex, or whether they should at all, 70 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 3: especially for men my senses, men are really terrified post 71 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 3: me too, that their life is going to be ruined 72 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 3: if they talk to a woman who is not interested. 73 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 3: And also I think some young women genuinely believe that 74 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 3: if a man approaches you and you don't know him, 75 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 3: that is by definition sexual harassment. So there's this very 76 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 3: polarized dynamic between the sexes. I think also, like you 77 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 3: said with the question about making friends, is we are 78 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 3: increasingly lonely. We do have fewer friends on average than 79 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 3: in previous generations, and part of it is that also 80 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 3: people used to meet their partners through friends and family 81 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 3: or through work, so all of those scenarios I mean, 82 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 3: I guess you can meet people through family, but the 83 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 3: likelihood of meeting someone through someone you know or through 84 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 3: an everyday normal occurrence is much less common nowadays. And 85 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 3: I think also to some extent frowned upon or seen 86 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 3: as not as convenient, because there's this perception that if 87 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 3: you go on a dating app. At least I think 88 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 3: this was the perception when dating apps first, starting in 89 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 3: popular that it's so much easier that you can just 90 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 3: go on swipe. You can go through all of these 91 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 3: potential partners in one sitting. You don't have to go 92 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 3: through the trouble of going out to a party or 93 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 3: you know, making small talk of people you're not interested in. 94 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 3: But I do think that dating apps have done a 95 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 3: really large disservice to dating because they aren't really as efficient. 96 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 3: I mean, what you see if you look at someone's 97 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 3: profile that doesn't really capture who that person is in 98 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 3: any capacity. And then most people, as I mentioned in sextinction, 99 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 3: a lot of people who are on dating apps are 100 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 3: not even really looking for a relationship or even to date, 101 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 3: or even to meet or to even have a conversation. 102 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 3: Some people are just on there swiping for validation to 103 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 3: see who might actually swipe back on them stay. And 104 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 3: then there's the algorithmic aspect too, that you're not fully 105 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 3: control of whom you're being shown to, and of the 106 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 3: people you do swipe on, do they even see that 107 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 3: you're interested in them? So all of these factors I mean, 108 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 3: in terms of like an evolutionary perspective, dating apps are 109 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 3: completely unlike anything we would have ever experienced in our 110 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 3: ancestral history, there's no time during which we would have 111 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 3: been able to sit in one place and go through 112 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 3: potential hundreds of partners in one sitting. So all of 113 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 3: that combined makes people feel really demoralized. It makes them 114 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 3: feel like there's really nobody out there for them if 115 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 3: you're spending a lot of time on even if nowadays 116 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 3: people use social media even as a way to meet 117 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 3: potential partners, and I just think the best way is 118 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 3: going out into real life. But like you said that, 119 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 3: the first step of that is to have social skills 120 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 3: and have the confidence to do that, which is very difficult. 121 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 3: So I think that speaks to potentially why people are 122 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 3: reaching out to you. But I think that's great that people, 123 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 3: you know, acknowledge that this is a step and that 124 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 3: if you don't know to ask for help right absolutely. 125 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: You know. It's interesting because I obviously I would think 126 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: that the screens are playing a role in this. 127 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 2: But my take or my guests would. 128 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: Have been that, sure, the screens stop you from forming relationships, 129 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,799 Speaker 1: but how do they How are people having less sex 130 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: because of the screens? I mean, there literally have a 131 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 1: world of opportunity to meet people to sleep. But maybe 132 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: those aren't going to turn into relationships and maybe they're 133 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: not going to get married. But how come the sex 134 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: is being affected by it? I would think it would 135 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: be the opposite. 136 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, with the screens are a number of different 137 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 3: It depends, I guess, on the content that you're looking at. 138 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 3: Pornography is one major factor that I talk about in 139 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 3: the book. I think even something like social media. Social 140 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 3: media is essential pornography nowadays as well, depending on the 141 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 3: platform you're on. But also there was one study I 142 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 3: found quite interesting that one in ten men found that 143 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 3: after looking at social media influencers, they were less interested 144 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 3: in having sex with their partner. So these are even 145 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 3: within couples and people who are married, there's less of 146 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 3: an interest in engaging with your sexual partner. And roughly 147 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 3: one in ten women also felt less sexually desirable after 148 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 3: being on social media, so even when you have a 149 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 3: regular partner. I mean that's really interesting too, because contrary 150 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,799 Speaker 3: to what you most people might believe, married people actually 151 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 3: do have more sex than single people because obviously you're 152 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 3: sharing the bed with someone at night, so it's not 153 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 3: like if you're single, even if you have a bunch 154 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 3: of regular hookups, say it's a lot more time consuming, 155 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 3: more effort to you know, and then there are no 156 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 3: bad you know, your boundaries are not as well defined 157 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 3: and things like that. So if married people are having 158 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 3: less sex, that speaks to like, really there's. 159 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 2: Something going on here. 160 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 3: And then with porn also, I would say because people 161 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 3: are I mean, this is predominantly men, but I think 162 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 3: more women are watching porn, especially the younger generations like 163 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 3: gen Z basically grew up watching pornography from a very 164 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 3: young age because of their early access to smartphones. And 165 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 3: so what happens is if you are regularly getting settled 166 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 3: sexual gratification from the screen, that can become reinforcing. And 167 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 3: I think also for men, I've heard from many men 168 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 3: who have said this to me that watching pornography is 169 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 3: actually diminish their interest in actually going out and meeting 170 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 3: real women. And also, I mean, I think when you 171 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 3: have the gratification that comes with I don't know how 172 00:07:57,640 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 3: graphic can be on your podcast, but I'll just say 173 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,679 Speaker 3: that gust from having an orgasm, you know, it sdates 174 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 3: you to some extent, So not just yease of your 175 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 3: sexual frustration in that moment, were more broadly for men especially. 176 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 3: I think if they're scared to approach women, understandably that okay, well, 177 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 3: they know they don't really have to do that to 178 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 3: get sexual gratification. 179 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 2: They can just turn to porn, right. 180 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: You know, there was that joke slash truth that people 181 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: are more afraid to speak in public. 182 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 2: Than they are of death. 183 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: And it makes me think that men being afraid to 184 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: approach women. You know, I was a child of the 185 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: nineties where AIDS was still going on, and I think 186 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: that that was kind of still a concern for people, 187 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: even though you know, obviously it was more limited to 188 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 1: certain populations, and maybe we didn't know that so much 189 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 1: at the time, but it seems like even then people 190 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: were still having risky sex and the consequence was death. Here, 191 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: the consequence is like awkward interaction and people can't do 192 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: it anymore. 193 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 2: Do you see that or is that not right? That's 194 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 2: a really interesting perspective. 195 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 3: I think also COVID did something to us because the 196 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 3: norm very much now is self isolation. Right, And even 197 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 3: if you are saying a couple like, it's crazy to 198 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 3: me when I see couples in public, many times I 199 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 3: will see them both on their phones basically having an 200 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 3: interaction with their phone, and then if they do interact 201 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 3: with each other, it's to point at something on their phone, 202 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 3: which is wild to me because something I get happy 203 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 3: when I see younger couples. 204 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, maybe you know, it's not so bad. 205 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 3: But then I see them on their phones and just 206 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 3: not even speaking to each other. So I think there's something. 207 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,079 Speaker 3: There's like a normalization of always being on your phone, 208 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 3: especially in public, so you're not talking to people, whereas back. 209 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 2: Then smartphones didn't exist, so we were forced to talk 210 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 2: to you. 211 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 3: If you're standing in line and you're bored, you're naturally 212 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 3: going to turn to the person side Junes make small talk, 213 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 3: and it wasn't seen as weird or as potentially threatening 214 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 3: back then. Also, so I think the social norms and 215 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 3: then also post COVID just people probably have habituated a 216 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 3: little bit to this self isolation. 217 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: Does sextinction offer a prescription for this? Do you have 218 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 1: any solution that we can work towards. 219 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 3: Yes, So I do have an optimistic outlook on this. 220 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 3: I wrote well in terms of the potential, but the 221 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 3: question is is that actually going to come into fruition. 222 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 2: We'll see I wrote the book. 223 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 3: With the hopes that it will help people see what's 224 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 3: coming down the line and say five years from now, 225 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 3: ten years from now, and to avoid the pitfalls that 226 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 3: are associated with that, because I think we learned a 227 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 3: large lesson with say social media and smartphones looking back, 228 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 3: but at the time, I think most of us were 229 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 3: pretty clueless. 230 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 2: We just thought as oh, this is fantastic. 231 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 3: I have a personal computer basically in my pocket at 232 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 3: all times. What could go wrong? And so with these 233 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 3: various technologies that I talk about, whether it is you know, 234 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 3: pornography and AI companions, sex robots and sex dolls, I 235 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 3: talk about endocrine disruptors and environmental toxins. I think that's 236 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 3: a big piece of the puzzle in terms of our 237 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,319 Speaker 3: physical health, and in some ways we aren't even fully 238 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 3: aware even at this time, with as much awareness as 239 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:01,359 Speaker 3: we do have, you know, some larger forces are incentivized 240 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 3: to keep this information from us. So if we are 241 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 3: not fully physically healthy, and if our hormones are being 242 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 3: messed with, especially for men in their declining testosterone, we 243 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 3: have no real hope of fully fixing this problem because 244 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 3: our sex drive and our sexual interest is not going 245 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:16,719 Speaker 3: to be restored to. 246 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 2: What it would be otherwise. 247 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 3: And I also talk about things like reproductive technology, the 248 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:25,599 Speaker 3: birth control pill, like freezing in mutual fertilization. And my 249 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 3: goal is just to give people unbiased information so that 250 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 3: they can make better decisions in their own lives. So 251 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 3: I do think it's possible to turn things around, but 252 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 3: I question whether that will happen because we all know 253 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 3: how bad being on the screens is, but. 254 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 2: We do it anyway exactly. 255 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: But what are the kind of changes that we're going 256 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 1: to experience when we do have more robots around? Or 257 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: AI is something that people talk to like the way 258 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: that they do to a friend. 259 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 2: You say you're optimistic. I'm kind of you know, I'm. 260 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: Generally an optimist, but I'm sort of pessimistic about this, 261 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 1: just because people are taking this safer route of not 262 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: having their feelings hurt by talking to somebody in real life. 263 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: AI will never hurt your feelings. AI will never be 264 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: awkward or weird with you. 265 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 2: And I see people leaning into that and treating AI 266 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 2: like it's a person, like it's a friend. Yeah. 267 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 3: That chapter I wrote on AI Companions was crazy to 268 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 3: me because it was so realistic. I wasn't expecting it 269 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,319 Speaker 3: to be as realistic as it is, and that technology 270 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 3: is only advancing so rapidly. So like you said, people 271 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 3: are falling in love with their AI chatbots. They are 272 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 3: using AI chatbots as a replacement for dating in real 273 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 3: life partners and friends, because like you said, the chatbot 274 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 3: will never tell you what you don't want to hear. You. 275 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 2: If it says something you. 276 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 3: Don't like, you can just click on a button and 277 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 3: tell it what you want it to stay next time. 278 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 2: So over time it learns. 279 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 3: What you prefer, and it's not going to challenge you. 280 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 3: It's not going to nag you, it's not going to 281 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 3: give you problems. It's always going to be totally fixated 282 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 3: on you and your needs. And so if you combine 283 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 3: that with the same the sexual aspect, which some people do, 284 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 3: then again it's like pornography, but it's much more interactive. 285 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 3: It's an emotional connection as well, and so people sexual 286 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 3: and emotional needs are being met. So I do think 287 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 3: more people are going to be turning towards this technology, 288 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 3: and I would say even more so in women because 289 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 3: when you look at something like that sex dolls and 290 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 3: sex robots that's primarily been targeted and I think consumed 291 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 3: by men because access to sex is much more difficult 292 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 3: for men than for women on average. But for women 293 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 3: because women place more of an emphasis on their emotional 294 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 3: needs being met, especially in the context of a relationship, 295 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 3: or we'll say women are less likely to have those 296 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 3: emotional needs met in the context of a relationship. 297 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 2: Then the AI. 298 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 3: Comes in as a really nice replacement in some ways. 299 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 3: I mean, I think it could initially start as something 300 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,439 Speaker 3: that you use in tandem to your relationship, but over 301 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,199 Speaker 3: time someone could easily say, actually, I prefer my AI 302 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 3: to my real life partner. 303 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 2: Because my AI, Yeah, it's easy, it. 304 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 3: Doesn't create any problems for me, doesn't give me any 305 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 3: additional stress. There's no uncertainty there. That's the other thing, 306 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 3: because other people are very much you know, they have 307 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:04,319 Speaker 3: their own minds and their own autonomy. So that's one way. 308 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 3: And then I think for men also, we see a 309 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 3: large segment of young men being shut out from the 310 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 3: mating market because men are on average falling behind their 311 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 3: female peers in terms of education and occupation socioeconomic status, 312 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 3: and women tend to want to date or marry men 313 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 3: who are at the same level of status to themselves 314 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 3: or people who are men who are more successful. So 315 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 3: what happens is for these young men who cannot get 316 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 3: access to any partners or have women who are not 317 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 3: interested in them, they're going to go further down this 318 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 3: rabbit hole of not just the AI girlfriends, but also 319 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 3: when this technology can be implanted into a realistic sex robot. 320 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 3: I mean, I did a big investigation into sex robots, 321 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 3: and they are the technologies is slowly moving in that direction. 322 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 3: I mean, there are aready people who approaching this purchasing this technology, 323 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 3: so I see it continue like bo both sexes are 324 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 3: going to continue going in opposite directions. And ultimately, I 325 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 3: mean some people might say, well, what about for the 326 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 3: purposes of procreation, you will need another person for that. 327 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 3: But at some point, at this point, yes, but at 328 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 3: some point, if it continues the way it's going, I 329 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 3: could see it being that men men who have the 330 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 3: means can simply use either a surrogate or use a 331 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 3: synthetic body like a robot, which they are developing this 332 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 3: technology where they can implant, you know, and give birth 333 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 3: that way, so they're not even reliant on really needing 334 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 3: a woman to terrifying. And then we also see a 335 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 3: single motherhood by choice, which is another thing I talk 336 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 3: about with women who reach a point where they say, 337 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 3: I can't find a man, a suitable man who might 338 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 3: like to have children with, so they go their own way. 339 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 3: And yeah, it's really unfortunate because I think at the core, 340 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 3: we all want to fall in love, we all want 341 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 3: to bond with someone and find someone for life, and 342 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 3: we're moving in very swiftly in the opposite direction inaction. 343 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: Right, We're going to take a quick break and be 344 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: right back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. How did you 345 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: get into being a neuroscientist who specializes in human sextual 346 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: What was the path? 347 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 3: fMRI research was really interesting to me. So the idea 348 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 3: that you could look at the brain and see what 349 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 3: parts of the brain were activated during a brain scan, 350 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 3: I just thought that was the wildless technology. So fMRI 351 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 3: technology has been around since about the nineties. MRI technology 352 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 3: has been around longer than that. So MRI is looking 353 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 3: at the structure of the body or the brain, and 354 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 3: then fMRI specifically looks at brain activation. So that's what 355 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 3: initially piqued my interest. And then in terms of sexuality research, 356 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 3: I did a placement in graduate school, and I didn't 357 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 3: know such a thing even existed back then. I didn't 358 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 3: know that you could study sex. But I liked it 359 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 3: because I found the subject so taboo. And whenever I 360 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 3: told someone my placement is, you know, I'm looking at 361 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 3: the brains of I'm looking at sexual arousal in the brain, 362 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 3: people would either say, Wow, that's really interesting or they 363 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 3: would be really weirded out and disgustingly comfortable. Yeah, And 364 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 3: I liked that because I thought, there's a part of 365 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 3: me too that feels like it's a bit uncomfortable to 366 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 3: talk about, and I want to push myself to do 367 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 3: this because there's no reason why it should be so 368 00:16:57,920 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 3: that way. 369 00:16:58,440 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 2: So that's why I ended up. 370 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 3: You know, I finished my PhD and neuroscience, and then 371 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 3: my switch into journalism was totally unpredictable as well, just 372 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 3: because academia had become way too woke, and I thought, 373 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 3: this is really doing a disservice to the public because 374 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 3: biology is seen as verbotens, so you can only really 375 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 3: discuss things in the context of socially constructed ideas or say, 376 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 3: like at the time when I was graduating, I know, 377 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 3: like everything was blamed on the part patriarchy. 378 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 2: You know, there's there's no still the case. So it 379 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 2: was very much. 380 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,719 Speaker 3: Just feeling like, Okay, I'm frustrated, I feel very limited, 381 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 3: and I know that if I stay in academia, I 382 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 3: have to stay quiet about certain things. And then the 383 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 3: issue of gender transitioning and children was also like very 384 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 3: popular at that time. I mean it still is. It's 385 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 3: thankfully that idea is slowly dying out. I really appreciate 386 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 3: the coverage you've been doing on this and just just 387 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,880 Speaker 3: the insanity in general about transgender ideology and all this nonsense. 388 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 3: So you know, I wrote this off ed criticizing gender 389 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 3: transitioning of kids, and I knew that after that point 390 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 3: I would be able to stay in academia, which. 391 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 2: Was fine for me. So I feel very blessed to 392 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 2: get to speak with you now and put the second book. 393 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: You don't get to come back now that everybody's changing 394 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: their minds. 395 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 2: They're not like, sorry, doctor, so come back. 396 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 3: No. 397 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 2: Once you're a trader, you're a trader for life. But 398 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 2: I honestly don't. 399 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 3: I don't know that I would even because it just 400 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 3: feels so much for free. Now I don't have to 401 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 3: worry about like saying the wrong thing and then having 402 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 3: people you know want to avoid you, or it's just yeah, 403 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 3: I can say whatever you want, which is the best feeling. 404 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,239 Speaker 2: I love that. Yeah, what are you most proud of 405 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 2: in your life? 406 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 3: Probably my resilience, I think, because, like I said, like 407 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 3: making that switch in my career was really unpredictable. 408 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 2: I didn't know what to expect. 409 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 3: But I also I think on one key theme in 410 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 3: Sextinction is especially saying to young people and to young 411 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 3: men who feel really demoralized, is that you have to 412 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 3: keep going. And I think it's very easy to look 413 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 3: at someone like myself or any of us, to look 414 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 3: at you, Carolyn, to say, well, easy for you to 415 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,640 Speaker 3: say that, like, how would you know? That we've all 416 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 3: gone through things in life, We've all struggled, right, And 417 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 3: I think the thing that separates people who move forward 418 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 3: and the people who stay in one place is just 419 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 3: that mindset of I'm going to do what I need 420 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 3: to do to grow and to get better and to 421 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 3: overcome these obstacles instead of being consumed by them. But 422 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 3: I really do want to emphasize I feel a lot 423 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,160 Speaker 3: of compassion for these young men hear. I hear from 424 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 3: very many of them on social media. They're very upset 425 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 3: with me because they say, well, easy for you to say. 426 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 2: That you're a woman, you're a minority. 427 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 3: But I think a big piece of it is mental health. 428 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 3: You know, like five percent of the globe right now 429 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 3: is depressed, and so I think also with the sexlessness problem, 430 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 3: but also with motivation and self esteem more broadly, And 431 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 3: just why people are also so obsessed with screens is 432 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 3: because it does help you avoid interacting with other people. 433 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 3: If you're depressed and anxious, you don't really want to 434 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 3: be in the presence of other people who could potentially 435 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 3: judge you, who could potentially reject you or make you 436 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 3: feel badly about yourself. Not to say that people generally do, 437 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 3: but especially if you're struggling with your mental health, people 438 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 3: tend to be a little bit more i'd say, hyper 439 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 3: vigilant about that. So I would say for people who 440 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 3: are struggling, definitely like prioritize that you know, it's okay, 441 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 3: there's no shame if you're struggling, but just to recognize that, 442 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 3: help us out there and you can get better, and 443 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 3: just to take tiny steps moving forward. 444 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: Absolutely give us a five year out prediction and it 445 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: could be about anything, but I'd love to hear a 446 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: sextinction prediction. 447 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 2: If you have one, I. 448 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 3: Would say, like we were saying, I do think AI 449 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 3: companion within five years, I see AA companions becoming mainstream. 450 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 3: I see people bringing them to parties, to weddings or really, 451 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 3: oh I too, really, Oh no, no, you got to 452 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 3: shame them back into their like hubble. 453 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 2: Ready, Carol, you're going to be like you're gonna be 454 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 2: at events. I'm going to be judging, very openly judging. 455 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 2: Do you want to meet my girlfriend or my boyfriend? No, 456 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 2: I don't. 457 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,439 Speaker 3: And because they're completely customizable, so for your audience in 458 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 3: case they haven't tried this technology, like, you can pick 459 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 3: what they look like, you choose their names. 460 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 2: I made a bunch of them. 461 00:20:57,760 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 3: I made tons of them for this book to trust 462 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 3: to try them, and you really can customize them, Tony, 463 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 3: any permutation of what you're looking for in terms of 464 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 3: physical attributes, personality, voice, pet names for you. So i'd 465 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 3: see that becoming mainstream. I do think, say, like sex robots, 466 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 3: once the price point goes down enough that people can 467 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 3: it's more affordable. Right now, the average sex spot is 468 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 3: probably about ten k starting at ten k and the 469 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 3: technology is still not the greatest, but once it starts, 470 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,239 Speaker 3: you know, becoming more affordable, I think that's also going 471 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 3: to become much more mainstream. And I didn't think this 472 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 3: would ever happen, but I do think it will become 473 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 3: more socially acceptable because the more people consume something, and 474 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 3: if they don't have other options, and again I feel 475 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 3: a lot of empathy for these men and can't get 476 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 3: other options, then people will say, Okay, well whom I 477 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 3: who am I to look down on this? Right? It's 478 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,679 Speaker 3: all if it's all a guy can get. But I 479 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 3: would argue, you know, I think a better use of 480 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 3: that money would be invested in again, therapy anything, and 481 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 3: also women, women, real women to date and if you 482 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 3: you feel that there's no one out there for you, 483 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 3: or that you've had purely negative experiences with men or women, 484 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 3: to look deeper into why that is, as opposed to 485 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 3: turning to these circuits that aren't going to help. They're 486 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 3: not going to help the loneliness. I think the loneliness, 487 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 3: the so called loneliness epidemic, is gonna get worse. And 488 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 3: I worry about the younger generation, worry about Jen Alpha, 489 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 3: who are roughly age thirteen and younger. Because they spend 490 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 3: a lot of time on screens too, they are being 491 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 3: supposed to porn at increasingly younger ages two and this 492 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 3: technology if once they hit even before they hit puberty, 493 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 3: if this technology is ready normalized, it's going to be 494 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 3: really an uphill battle to try and keep them away 495 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 3: from it. 496 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 2: Yeah. 497 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: Look, I feel very sorry for the people who are 498 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: lonely and can't find somebody, or feel that they're unworthy 499 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,360 Speaker 1: or any of that. But I pledge to you right here, 500 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: I'm never going to just be accepting somebody bringing a 501 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 1: sex doll to a party and say like, oh, you. 502 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 2: Really just couldn't meet anybody. I guess this is what 503 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 2: we have to put up with. 504 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: I don't know it's going to have to be after 505 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: I die, because I don't think I'm in five years 506 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: from now. I'm just going to be nodding along with 507 00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 1: the story of the sex spot. 508 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 2: What if the sex spot is a really good conversationalist, 509 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: So no, I feel like the. 510 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: Kind of person who would have a sex spot can't 511 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: be a very good conversationalist, and so therefore neither can 512 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: the sex spot. 513 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 2: And that's my take on it. 514 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 1: Deborah, I have loved this conversation, and I guess I've 515 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 1: been a longtime fan of yours. I just think you're 516 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: a fantastic writer and just amazing at the work that 517 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: you do. Leave us here with your best tip for 518 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: my listeners on how they can improve their lives. 519 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 2: I would say, I mean to go back to my. 520 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 3: Point on social media, to live your life how you 521 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 3: want to live it, how you feels right for you, 522 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 3: and don't worry about social comparison, because I think, even 523 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 3: though we know that people's lives are not what we 524 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 3: see on a screen or what we see when we're 525 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 3: scrolling is not an accurate reflection of people's lives, it's 526 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 3: still in some ways I think, gets into like feet 527 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 3: somehow you know, sinks its teeth into us and influences us. 528 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 3: And I see so many people who feel unsatisfied with 529 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 3: either the way they look, plastic checked on plastic surgery 530 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 3: and how cosmetic trends are very quick, in some cases, 531 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 3: very invasive. Plastic surgery trends are affecting both women and men. Now, 532 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 3: So how we look, how we think our partners should look, 533 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 3: how we think we should behave in a relationship, even 534 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 3: something as simple as like how big our house should 535 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 3: be or how many designer goods we should have based 536 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 3: on what we see on social media. And I think 537 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 3: just to recognize that people on social media obviously don't 538 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 3: look the way they look right, and your life is 539 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 3: how you want to live it, and you don't have 540 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 3: to justify that to other people or what you know, 541 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 3: social norms say that you should do. 542 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: Absolutely, comparison is the thief of joy. 543 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 2: She is doctor Debra. 544 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 1: So buy her book A Extinction anywhere you buy books 545 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: out right now. 546 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Deborah, Thank you, Carol,