1 00:00:15,564 --> 00:00:28,564 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making 2 00:00:28,604 --> 00:00:31,884 Speaker 1: better decisions. I'm Maria Kanakova and I'm Nate Silver. 3 00:00:32,724 --> 00:00:34,884 Speaker 2: Today on the show, Maria, I gotta be honest, this 4 00:00:34,924 --> 00:00:37,644 Speaker 2: is gonna be a little bit of a media naval 5 00:00:37,724 --> 00:00:41,444 Speaker 2: gazing kind of episode. People love talking about this stuff. 6 00:00:41,484 --> 00:00:43,244 Speaker 2: Some of them do, some of them don't write. But 7 00:00:43,284 --> 00:00:46,444 Speaker 2: we're gonna be talking about the recent acquisition by paramount 8 00:00:46,724 --> 00:00:50,564 Speaker 2: of the subset publication the Free Press, Barry Weis's publication 9 00:00:50,644 --> 00:00:53,084 Speaker 2: for one hundred and fifty million dollars. Barry Wise also 10 00:00:53,164 --> 00:00:56,044 Speaker 2: now the editor in chief of CBS News. I kind 11 00:00:56,084 --> 00:00:58,564 Speaker 2: of can't resist this topic because, as you'll hear, like 12 00:00:59,084 --> 00:01:02,644 Speaker 2: I just know and you know this landscape pretty well. 13 00:01:02,684 --> 00:01:04,244 Speaker 2: I used to work for ABC News, I used to 14 00:01:04,244 --> 00:01:05,524 Speaker 2: work for the New York Times where Barry is. I 15 00:01:05,604 --> 00:01:08,124 Speaker 2: have my own substack that doesn't compete quite with the 16 00:01:08,124 --> 00:01:10,364 Speaker 2: Free Press, but like, I know all this stuff really well. 17 00:01:10,604 --> 00:01:12,924 Speaker 2: You know, it's too close to the bone for me 18 00:01:13,004 --> 00:01:15,644 Speaker 2: not to have opinions about it. And there is some 19 00:01:15,724 --> 00:01:18,044 Speaker 2: strategy work too, as far as as far as what 20 00:01:18,084 --> 00:01:19,604 Speaker 2: CBS wants to get out of this. How do you 21 00:01:19,684 --> 00:01:22,204 Speaker 2: build a differentiated media brand? How do you know when 22 00:01:22,204 --> 00:01:24,044 Speaker 2: you're hiring a good editor in chief and they will 23 00:01:24,044 --> 00:01:25,244 Speaker 2: do a good called bad call, right? 24 00:01:25,444 --> 00:01:25,724 Speaker 3: Yeah. 25 00:01:25,764 --> 00:01:28,124 Speaker 1: Absolutely, to say at the end of the day, is 26 00:01:28,164 --> 00:01:30,724 Speaker 1: this a good decision for CBS, the acquisition of a 27 00:01:30,764 --> 00:01:33,924 Speaker 1: free press making Barry wise editor in chief? Is this 28 00:01:34,044 --> 00:01:37,404 Speaker 1: good for the brand? Is this good for the future 29 00:01:37,444 --> 00:01:40,524 Speaker 1: of media? 30 00:01:42,284 --> 00:01:44,204 Speaker 2: Would you like to have one hundred and two million dollars, Maria, 31 00:01:44,284 --> 00:01:45,924 Speaker 2: I would love to have one hundred and fifty dollars 32 00:01:45,964 --> 00:01:46,204 Speaker 2: a night. 33 00:01:46,524 --> 00:01:50,284 Speaker 1: So let's uh, let's dive in and just talk about 34 00:01:50,324 --> 00:01:54,204 Speaker 1: this decision. It's heavily tax you know what, Nate, I 35 00:01:54,244 --> 00:01:56,244 Speaker 1: will happily pay taxes. 36 00:01:56,444 --> 00:01:57,724 Speaker 2: You just pay what taxes. 37 00:01:58,204 --> 00:02:01,004 Speaker 1: I will happily pay more taxes. If someone were to 38 00:02:01,084 --> 00:02:03,884 Speaker 1: offer me one hundred and fifty million dollars, why night 39 00:02:03,924 --> 00:02:04,484 Speaker 1: are you offering? 40 00:02:04,604 --> 00:02:07,084 Speaker 2: If I had one hundred and fifty billion dollars, I 41 00:02:07,164 --> 00:02:10,284 Speaker 2: might offer you like a really ice birthday gift. 42 00:02:11,324 --> 00:02:15,644 Speaker 1: Ah, that's so sweet. This is where this is where 43 00:02:15,684 --> 00:02:19,804 Speaker 1: friendships come to die right on this podcast, ladies and gentlemen. 44 00:02:20,764 --> 00:02:25,404 Speaker 1: But let's talk about Barry Weiss's appointment. So with that 45 00:02:25,564 --> 00:02:30,884 Speaker 1: acquisition for one hundred and fifty million dollars, Barry Weiss 46 00:02:30,964 --> 00:02:35,084 Speaker 1: has become the editor in chief of CBS News, which 47 00:02:35,124 --> 00:02:38,444 Speaker 1: is now part of Paramount. Right, because there was just 48 00:02:38,564 --> 00:02:44,044 Speaker 1: a big deal where Paramount, which is owned by David Ellison, 49 00:02:44,164 --> 00:02:47,524 Speaker 1: who is I don't know how many billions he has, 50 00:02:47,564 --> 00:02:49,164 Speaker 1: but he has many of them. 51 00:02:49,564 --> 00:02:53,084 Speaker 2: Not enough, not enough, clearly, not enough clearly. 52 00:02:53,884 --> 00:02:58,604 Speaker 1: So yeah, so now she will be running CBS News. Nate, 53 00:02:58,684 --> 00:03:01,204 Speaker 1: you say everyone has opinions. I certainly have opinions, but 54 00:03:01,644 --> 00:03:04,524 Speaker 1: let's start. Let's start with your opinions. What do you 55 00:03:04,604 --> 00:03:08,484 Speaker 1: think about this decision? And then I will I will 56 00:03:08,524 --> 00:03:11,084 Speaker 1: speak to someone who formally worked in news. 57 00:03:11,284 --> 00:03:13,284 Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, I should also say, like, you know, 58 00:03:13,364 --> 00:03:15,644 Speaker 2: I don't understand the whole I have a substack. I'm 59 00:03:15,644 --> 00:03:18,404 Speaker 2: an investor in substack. Just disclosing on my conflict of interest. Right. 60 00:03:19,924 --> 00:03:22,084 Speaker 2: I've met Barry once or twice. I had nice interactions 61 00:03:22,084 --> 00:03:24,044 Speaker 2: with her. I've talked about collaboration with the Free Press 62 00:03:24,084 --> 00:03:26,404 Speaker 2: different times. But I don't think i've any like conflicts 63 00:03:26,404 --> 00:03:30,004 Speaker 2: that make this awkward officially, or maybe awkward, but not 64 00:03:30,084 --> 00:03:32,044 Speaker 2: more than awkward, which is kind of always how it 65 00:03:32,124 --> 00:03:34,724 Speaker 2: is with this naval gazing, insight journalism and stuff. So 66 00:03:35,164 --> 00:03:39,684 Speaker 2: I have a few thoughts. Right, number one, the purchase 67 00:03:39,724 --> 00:03:44,444 Speaker 2: price of one hundred and fifty million dollars is actually 68 00:03:44,844 --> 00:03:48,124 Speaker 2: not ridiculous, right. And the reason I know this is because, 69 00:03:48,204 --> 00:03:52,724 Speaker 2: like I've spent a lot of time looking at multiples 70 00:03:53,444 --> 00:03:57,164 Speaker 2: of based on the number of paid subscribers that you have, Right, 71 00:03:57,204 --> 00:03:59,764 Speaker 2: what does that tend to sell for in the market, 72 00:03:59,844 --> 00:04:02,684 Speaker 2: for example? You know, the reason I'm interested in this 73 00:04:02,724 --> 00:04:04,564 Speaker 2: is that from time to time I get you know, 74 00:04:04,644 --> 00:04:07,044 Speaker 2: people want to have something to do with my substack, 75 00:04:07,164 --> 00:04:10,124 Speaker 2: silver bulletin invest capital in it. And it's weird because, 76 00:04:10,164 --> 00:04:14,244 Speaker 2: like when you accept money, there are a lot of 77 00:04:14,404 --> 00:04:16,804 Speaker 2: strings attached. Right. It's like not like you're just buying 78 00:04:16,884 --> 00:04:20,364 Speaker 2: like an annuity in whatever revenue that you have in 79 00:04:20,404 --> 00:04:22,684 Speaker 2: the future. Right, You're expected to give up some control, 80 00:04:22,764 --> 00:04:26,004 Speaker 2: You're expected to work a certain amount of time, maybe harder. 81 00:04:26,404 --> 00:04:29,044 Speaker 2: You're expected to you know, give up some of the 82 00:04:29,044 --> 00:04:33,964 Speaker 2: profit yourself. But like you know, they are the top 83 00:04:34,004 --> 00:04:38,164 Speaker 2: selling substack on the platform, I believe by some margin. 84 00:04:38,204 --> 00:04:40,044 Speaker 2: I do have some knowledge that I'm going to try 85 00:04:40,044 --> 00:04:43,604 Speaker 2: not to reveal, But like you know, they have well 86 00:04:43,644 --> 00:04:47,524 Speaker 2: over a million total subscribers right at typical rate that 87 00:04:47,604 --> 00:04:52,044 Speaker 2: translates probably into low six figure paid subscribers. The growth 88 00:04:52,044 --> 00:04:54,164 Speaker 2: has been solid. They have been spending a lot of 89 00:04:54,204 --> 00:04:56,084 Speaker 2: money on staff. It's not like, you know, I have 90 00:04:56,164 --> 00:04:59,444 Speaker 2: two people I hire. They have dozens, right, But like 91 00:04:59,524 --> 00:05:01,564 Speaker 2: you know, depending on whether it's a time for like 92 00:05:02,324 --> 00:05:04,684 Speaker 2: hot or cold kind of valuations in the market, I 93 00:05:04,684 --> 00:05:06,884 Speaker 2: feel like there's gonna be like a more scientific way 94 00:05:06,924 --> 00:05:09,364 Speaker 2: to put that, but like it's not inherently ridiculous. 95 00:05:09,484 --> 00:05:11,124 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was. Actually that was one of the things 96 00:05:11,124 --> 00:05:13,004 Speaker 1: that I was curious to hear your opinion on because 97 00:05:13,044 --> 00:05:15,364 Speaker 1: I don't know anything about the financials, and when I 98 00:05:15,404 --> 00:05:17,244 Speaker 1: saw that amount, I was like, wow, that seems like 99 00:05:17,284 --> 00:05:17,604 Speaker 1: a lot. 100 00:05:17,804 --> 00:05:20,724 Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I mean you know when I was talking 101 00:05:20,724 --> 00:05:23,164 Speaker 2: with John Skipper, who was on the president of ESPN 102 00:05:23,244 --> 00:05:27,604 Speaker 2: when when they purchased the five thirty eight brand, right, 103 00:05:27,964 --> 00:05:30,004 Speaker 2: you know, he said, in my philosophy's in North Carolina, 104 00:05:30,084 --> 00:05:34,044 Speaker 2: got my philosophy and negotiations is always that it's worth 105 00:05:34,044 --> 00:05:35,804 Speaker 2: one dollar more the next guy is willing to pay 106 00:05:35,844 --> 00:05:37,604 Speaker 2: for it, right. So, and there's some of that, right. 107 00:05:37,964 --> 00:05:42,044 Speaker 2: But the thing about subscription models, and it's nice to 108 00:05:42,124 --> 00:05:47,684 Speaker 2: have myself, right, is if they are cash flow positive, right, 109 00:05:48,124 --> 00:05:50,764 Speaker 2: you can get a big burst of subscribers upfront, they're 110 00:05:50,764 --> 00:05:53,804 Speaker 2: paying for the whole year or the whole month in advance. Right, 111 00:05:53,844 --> 00:05:55,964 Speaker 2: So it's like not some future we're going to build 112 00:05:55,964 --> 00:05:58,524 Speaker 2: this brand up and then later on converted to advertising 113 00:05:58,564 --> 00:06:01,764 Speaker 2: revenues or make it a brand consultancy or something else. 114 00:06:01,924 --> 00:06:02,124 Speaker 1: Right. 115 00:06:02,524 --> 00:06:05,844 Speaker 2: You know if free press has north of one hundred 116 00:06:05,964 --> 00:06:11,004 Speaker 2: thousand paid subscribers, right and they're paying on average, after 117 00:06:11,284 --> 00:06:14,604 Speaker 2: after stripe fees and things like that, eighty dollars a 118 00:06:14,684 --> 00:06:17,524 Speaker 2: year or whatever, right, I mean that is like that's 119 00:06:17,564 --> 00:06:21,764 Speaker 2: like actual freaking money. You know, whether it justifies one 120 00:06:21,844 --> 00:06:26,164 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty billion, you get into multipless can be billion, 121 00:06:26,964 --> 00:06:29,244 Speaker 2: it can get to multiples. Multiples can be subjective. 122 00:06:29,404 --> 00:06:29,564 Speaker 1: Right. 123 00:06:30,324 --> 00:06:33,804 Speaker 2: There's maybe some notion that, like all those subscription businesses 124 00:06:33,804 --> 00:06:37,404 Speaker 2: get off to a fast start, you know, in theory 125 00:06:37,444 --> 00:06:41,044 Speaker 2: they have some upside cap, right. Yeah, Typically there's like 126 00:06:41,124 --> 00:06:45,364 Speaker 2: kind of a S curve sign you at first, you 127 00:06:45,404 --> 00:06:47,764 Speaker 2: have trouble finding anybody because I don't know about you. Right, 128 00:06:48,164 --> 00:06:50,724 Speaker 2: the developed brand awareness and you reach everybody in your 129 00:06:50,724 --> 00:06:54,124 Speaker 2: potential audience, the people who are the most excited about 130 00:06:54,124 --> 00:06:56,604 Speaker 2: your product, subscribed first rate and then probably encounter some 131 00:06:56,684 --> 00:06:59,044 Speaker 2: diminishing returns. And the point is that, like where do 132 00:06:59,084 --> 00:07:01,004 Speaker 2: you find yourself on that. You know, when do those 133 00:07:01,004 --> 00:07:04,204 Speaker 2: inflection points hit potentially right, you start to get more churn, 134 00:07:04,604 --> 00:07:10,164 Speaker 2: it gets harder. Right. One criticism that's and levied against 135 00:07:10,164 --> 00:07:15,924 Speaker 2: the Free press is that it focuses on some particular issues, 136 00:07:18,724 --> 00:07:22,964 Speaker 2: some of which, in various ways are becoming less relevant. Right. 137 00:07:23,404 --> 00:07:27,924 Speaker 2: You know, it focused a lot on woke excesses in 138 00:07:27,964 --> 00:07:30,684 Speaker 2: the kind of the liberal sphere. Right, I'm not going 139 00:07:30,764 --> 00:07:32,164 Speaker 2: to put woke in quotation marks. I think it was 140 00:07:32,164 --> 00:07:35,604 Speaker 2: a real thing. Barry Weiss quit The New York Times 141 00:07:35,604 --> 00:07:37,924 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty at a time when there was a 142 00:07:37,924 --> 00:07:40,364 Speaker 2: lot of peer pressure and group think, and so this 143 00:07:40,404 --> 00:07:42,764 Speaker 2: place sucks, right, I'm not going to be here anymore, 144 00:07:42,764 --> 00:07:48,244 Speaker 2: even though she'd been brought in to solicit conservative opinion pieces. 145 00:07:48,604 --> 00:07:51,644 Speaker 2: And part of what happens with these substacks is when 146 00:07:51,684 --> 00:07:55,404 Speaker 2: there is like a market inefficiency when for whatever reason, 147 00:07:55,964 --> 00:08:00,724 Speaker 2: because because there's peer pressure in newsrooms, because corporate big 148 00:08:00,764 --> 00:08:05,884 Speaker 2: wigs are cow towing to a particular opinion to Trump 149 00:08:06,004 --> 00:08:10,204 Speaker 2: maybe for example, you know, substack feels that vuli where 150 00:08:10,404 --> 00:08:11,844 Speaker 2: there was a lot of people who were like, yeah, 151 00:08:11,884 --> 00:08:14,524 Speaker 2: I'm liberal but I'm not woke. This shit seems ridiculous. 152 00:08:14,724 --> 00:08:18,404 Speaker 2: And so here's a free press that, like the free press, 153 00:08:18,844 --> 00:08:21,484 Speaker 2: which are called common sense, that like speaks to those 154 00:08:21,484 --> 00:08:24,724 Speaker 2: issues in a way that other publications don't write. I 155 00:08:24,764 --> 00:08:26,404 Speaker 2: think it's been more of a struggle for like, how 156 00:08:26,444 --> 00:08:30,044 Speaker 2: does this audience feel about like covering the Trump administration? Right? 157 00:08:30,724 --> 00:08:34,884 Speaker 2: Trump is president and therefore, you know he makes most 158 00:08:34,884 --> 00:08:38,004 Speaker 2: of the news. If you're kind of covering politics, right, 159 00:08:39,084 --> 00:08:41,804 Speaker 2: I think probably you're gonna see some Well, I'm speaking 160 00:08:41,804 --> 00:08:44,804 Speaker 2: my own book here, right, I think these blogs are 161 00:08:45,044 --> 00:08:46,884 Speaker 2: interesting but partisan. I think they tend to suck when 162 00:08:46,884 --> 00:08:49,844 Speaker 2: it comes to, like actually covering elections. I think they 163 00:08:49,844 --> 00:08:52,124 Speaker 2: tend to be extremely partisan and not good at like 164 00:08:52,404 --> 00:08:55,044 Speaker 2: keeping their arms legs from polls. But no doubt, like 165 00:08:55,044 --> 00:08:57,084 Speaker 2: if you kind of got in early that like there's 166 00:08:57,084 --> 00:08:58,284 Speaker 2: a lot of desire for it, and a lot of 167 00:08:58,284 --> 00:09:01,364 Speaker 2: the best commentary about what's going on right is on 168 00:09:01,404 --> 00:09:04,684 Speaker 2: substeck now and not in the Washington Post, for example. Right, 169 00:09:04,764 --> 00:09:06,764 Speaker 2: so you know, this creates a market were you no 170 00:09:06,804 --> 00:09:12,004 Speaker 2: longer have have gate keepers, and in some sense, like 171 00:09:12,124 --> 00:09:17,124 Speaker 2: I admire anybody who says fuck you, I don't care 172 00:09:17,164 --> 00:09:19,284 Speaker 2: about the gatekeepers. Right, I'm going to do my own thing, 173 00:09:19,524 --> 00:09:21,244 Speaker 2: and I'm going to prove it with the fact that 174 00:09:21,284 --> 00:09:24,484 Speaker 2: I've developed, you know, the largest audience on this very 175 00:09:24,764 --> 00:09:26,924 Speaker 2: competitive platform. I've been talking for a while, Maria, what 176 00:09:26,924 --> 00:09:29,324 Speaker 2: do you I haven't even I have you have Wooden 177 00:09:29,444 --> 00:09:31,724 Speaker 2: edge Wise, what do you? What do you think? 178 00:09:32,404 --> 00:09:37,884 Speaker 1: Well, you know, I, I frankly probably find the choice 179 00:09:38,684 --> 00:09:44,684 Speaker 1: more concerning than you do. For you know, I think 180 00:09:44,724 --> 00:09:50,284 Speaker 1: that the free press has changed a lot since it 181 00:09:50,404 --> 00:09:55,484 Speaker 1: was since its inception, right. I actually I was much 182 00:09:55,724 --> 00:10:00,724 Speaker 1: more sympathetic to a lot of Barry Weiss's pieces earlier on, 183 00:10:01,524 --> 00:10:06,004 Speaker 1: and I feel like it has gone from like actually 184 00:10:06,244 --> 00:10:10,644 Speaker 1: wanting to be free press to being a little bit 185 00:10:11,404 --> 00:10:14,644 Speaker 1: too much on the other side, so to speak, right, 186 00:10:14,724 --> 00:10:19,844 Speaker 1: and now actually being quite biased. Like whenever Trump is 187 00:10:19,884 --> 00:10:23,804 Speaker 1: suddenly singing your praises, you should probably be just a 188 00:10:23,804 --> 00:10:26,604 Speaker 1: little bit worried that maybe you're not the champion of 189 00:10:26,684 --> 00:10:31,244 Speaker 1: free speech that that you once were. So so there, 190 00:10:31,324 --> 00:10:35,924 Speaker 1: there's that, and then this is CBS News, right, and 191 00:10:36,404 --> 00:10:43,284 Speaker 1: that's and so so let's talk about that, right, Let's 192 00:10:43,364 --> 00:10:46,964 Speaker 1: talk about the fact that Barry Wise has zero experience 193 00:10:47,524 --> 00:10:49,804 Speaker 1: running a newsroom running. 194 00:10:49,484 --> 00:10:51,444 Speaker 2: Now you're making Now you're making the bad of the bargainment. 195 00:10:51,564 --> 00:10:52,004 Speaker 1: But that's true. 196 00:10:52,044 --> 00:10:52,604 Speaker 2: But it's true. 197 00:10:52,644 --> 00:10:56,084 Speaker 1: It's not a bad it's hold on, hold on. I've 198 00:10:56,244 --> 00:10:59,604 Speaker 1: so she's never worked in television, right, and let me 199 00:10:59,724 --> 00:11:02,684 Speaker 1: just say one of the first things she did when 200 00:11:02,724 --> 00:11:06,484 Speaker 1: she started was send out a memo telling everyone to 201 00:11:07,404 --> 00:11:12,364 Speaker 1: take time to write a memo to her detailing how 202 00:11:12,404 --> 00:11:15,524 Speaker 1: they spend their entire day so that she could read that. 203 00:11:16,164 --> 00:11:19,764 Speaker 1: And to me, that's like, that's not even a red flag. 204 00:11:19,844 --> 00:11:23,884 Speaker 1: That's like flaming red fires. If someone asked me to 205 00:11:23,924 --> 00:11:27,324 Speaker 1: do that, I would probably be like, I'm very sorry, 206 00:11:27,404 --> 00:11:31,644 Speaker 1: but with all due respect, fuck you. Like, as someone 207 00:11:31,644 --> 00:11:34,924 Speaker 1: who actually worked on a daily news show and who 208 00:11:34,964 --> 00:11:39,044 Speaker 1: has worked in a magazine, you know, corporate world, which she, 209 00:11:39,084 --> 00:11:40,964 Speaker 1: by the way, didn't do on the editorial side. She 210 00:11:41,084 --> 00:11:44,084 Speaker 1: was just an opinion columnist, and then she started her 211 00:11:44,084 --> 00:11:48,004 Speaker 1: own thing. It is very, very different. Running CBS News 212 00:11:48,044 --> 00:11:52,124 Speaker 1: is not running the Free Press on substack and being 213 00:11:52,164 --> 00:11:56,324 Speaker 1: put in charge of that. It's you know, imagine if 214 00:11:56,364 --> 00:11:59,764 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, like let's imagine I'm still at 215 00:11:59,764 --> 00:12:02,924 Speaker 1: The New Yorker and we're told that, hey, David Remnick 216 00:12:03,044 --> 00:12:06,964 Speaker 1: is leaving and instead we're going to get I don't 217 00:12:06,964 --> 00:12:09,164 Speaker 1: even know who. Elon Musk. He's very smart, and he's 218 00:12:09,164 --> 00:12:10,604 Speaker 1: gonna be your editor in chief. 219 00:12:10,964 --> 00:12:12,884 Speaker 2: Oh no, but Ria, this is getting more Libby. 220 00:12:13,004 --> 00:12:14,684 Speaker 1: But it doesn't have to be at Elon Musk. It 221 00:12:14,724 --> 00:12:17,124 Speaker 1: could be Bill Gates. I don't care who it is, 222 00:12:17,164 --> 00:12:21,764 Speaker 1: but someone who has zero experience running a magazine. But now, 223 00:12:21,844 --> 00:12:24,164 Speaker 1: even if David Remnick were to go to CBS News, 224 00:12:24,164 --> 00:12:27,364 Speaker 1: that would be a little bit weird, and he probably 225 00:12:27,364 --> 00:12:30,804 Speaker 1: still isn't particularly qualified for that because even though he's 226 00:12:30,884 --> 00:12:34,764 Speaker 1: run something that's much more similar to that kind of organization, 227 00:12:34,884 --> 00:12:36,924 Speaker 1: it's still incredibly different. 228 00:12:36,964 --> 00:12:38,444 Speaker 2: I mean, first, first of all, if you want to 229 00:12:38,484 --> 00:12:40,644 Speaker 2: talk about qualified, like a lot of the presidents of 230 00:12:40,644 --> 00:12:42,164 Speaker 2: these network news organizations, this. 231 00:12:42,164 --> 00:12:45,084 Speaker 1: Is a president, she's she's not the president though, right, 232 00:12:45,124 --> 00:12:46,924 Speaker 1: This is someone who is in charge of the content. 233 00:12:47,164 --> 00:12:49,564 Speaker 2: Those are very very she's act. 234 00:12:49,444 --> 00:12:50,964 Speaker 1: But it's those are different roles. 235 00:12:51,084 --> 00:12:52,764 Speaker 2: She reports to Ellison, right, right. 236 00:12:52,644 --> 00:12:53,804 Speaker 1: But those are different roles. 237 00:12:54,644 --> 00:12:57,084 Speaker 2: The role of editor can mean a lot of different things. 238 00:12:57,204 --> 00:12:59,724 Speaker 1: Right now, I'm not talking about politics. I'm just talking 239 00:12:59,724 --> 00:13:03,164 Speaker 1: about like, who are you putting in charge of a 240 00:13:03,244 --> 00:13:06,844 Speaker 1: news organization? Do you are you putting someone who actually 241 00:13:06,924 --> 00:13:08,884 Speaker 1: understands how to run a newsroom. 242 00:13:09,204 --> 00:13:12,044 Speaker 2: And yes, she has run she has run a newsroom 243 00:13:12,124 --> 00:13:15,604 Speaker 2: with like several dozen people. That is one of the 244 00:13:15,724 --> 00:13:17,484 Speaker 2: few successful businesses. 245 00:13:17,764 --> 00:13:21,564 Speaker 1: But it's not television. It's a very different medium. Podcasts 246 00:13:21,604 --> 00:13:25,084 Speaker 1: are different from newsletters, are different from daily TV shows 247 00:13:25,404 --> 00:13:27,844 Speaker 1: are different from screenwriting, are differs. 248 00:13:27,964 --> 00:13:30,204 Speaker 2: So you want you want more superficiality. 249 00:13:30,364 --> 00:13:33,124 Speaker 1: No, I want someone who I think is qualified. If 250 00:13:33,164 --> 00:13:37,044 Speaker 1: you look at her resume, just pretend you don't even 251 00:13:37,044 --> 00:13:39,164 Speaker 1: see her name, right, and you see resumes of people, 252 00:13:39,164 --> 00:13:41,804 Speaker 1: this is not someone who would ever get that job, right, Like, 253 00:13:41,884 --> 00:13:45,724 Speaker 1: she just lacks some basic qualifications, some basic stepping stone. 254 00:13:45,804 --> 00:13:49,244 Speaker 2: Go ahead and look at like who is hired to 255 00:13:49,324 --> 00:13:54,964 Speaker 2: these senior level positions at ABC, CBS, NBC. Right. Sometimes 256 00:13:54,964 --> 00:13:58,244 Speaker 2: it's longtime TV executives. Sometimes it's people with the journalism background. 257 00:13:58,764 --> 00:14:02,364 Speaker 2: Sometimes it's somebody who's a big name brought in from 258 00:14:02,564 --> 00:14:06,484 Speaker 2: the outside. Right. Sometimes it's somebody who who was a 259 00:14:06,524 --> 00:14:10,964 Speaker 2: star producing a different type of television, might producing sports 260 00:14:11,044 --> 00:14:13,804 Speaker 2: or something like that. Sometimes it's somebody who kind of 261 00:14:13,844 --> 00:14:16,084 Speaker 2: came up the corporate length since kind of like a bureaucrat. 262 00:14:16,404 --> 00:14:18,924 Speaker 2: The range of things that you do is like an editor, 263 00:14:19,244 --> 00:14:21,884 Speaker 2: including bureaucratic task, editorial task, and most of the people 264 00:14:21,884 --> 00:14:24,324 Speaker 2: have not been very successful or good. It's a kind 265 00:14:24,324 --> 00:14:26,604 Speaker 2: of high turnover. At least in the curtent environment. Used 266 00:14:26,644 --> 00:14:29,204 Speaker 2: to have like long standing people who would have this 267 00:14:29,284 --> 00:14:32,004 Speaker 2: job for years, right, but the turnover is very high. 268 00:14:32,044 --> 00:14:34,364 Speaker 2: And like, why wouldn't you want to pick somebody who 269 00:14:34,444 --> 00:14:38,684 Speaker 2: has actually built a successful news product before? 270 00:14:38,924 --> 00:14:41,604 Speaker 1: Well, I would want someone who at least understands how 271 00:14:41,644 --> 00:14:45,204 Speaker 1: my medium works, someone who has worked in screen and 272 00:14:45,244 --> 00:14:48,044 Speaker 1: who understands that writing for the screen is very different 273 00:14:48,124 --> 00:14:51,644 Speaker 1: from writing for the page. Who understands that what it 274 00:14:51,724 --> 00:14:54,444 Speaker 1: takes to succeed in television is not what it takes 275 00:14:54,684 --> 00:14:58,244 Speaker 1: to succeed in print journalism. Who understands how all of 276 00:14:58,284 --> 00:15:01,484 Speaker 1: these different media products work together. I want someone with 277 00:15:01,684 --> 00:15:06,764 Speaker 1: a demonstrated capacity to make that sort of a transition, 278 00:15:07,284 --> 00:15:09,764 Speaker 1: and she I would at least have won her in 279 00:15:09,764 --> 00:15:13,764 Speaker 1: a more junior position to demonstrate that she's capable of 280 00:15:13,804 --> 00:15:17,284 Speaker 1: creating sixty minutes, right, of producing a show like that. 281 00:15:17,644 --> 00:15:20,004 Speaker 1: And let me tell you from having actually worked as 282 00:15:20,004 --> 00:15:23,484 Speaker 1: a television producer, it is not anything like what I 283 00:15:23,524 --> 00:15:26,444 Speaker 1: do as a print journalism. The things that you write 284 00:15:26,444 --> 00:15:29,884 Speaker 1: for it are vast, Like it's just a completely different 285 00:15:29,884 --> 00:15:32,764 Speaker 1: skill set, and to think that it's the same skill 286 00:15:32,804 --> 00:15:37,364 Speaker 1: set just is basically ignorant, to be perfectly honest. Like 287 00:15:37,484 --> 00:15:38,764 Speaker 1: it's it's like saying this. 288 00:15:38,764 --> 00:15:41,924 Speaker 2: News is not a tell it doesn't want to be 289 00:15:41,964 --> 00:15:44,044 Speaker 2: a television company. It wouldn't have the valuation. 290 00:15:44,204 --> 00:15:47,484 Speaker 1: And yet and yet so much of it is television. 291 00:15:47,524 --> 00:15:50,564 Speaker 1: And to bring in someone who does not understand television 292 00:15:50,884 --> 00:15:54,324 Speaker 1: and has no background in it, I think is just 293 00:15:55,204 --> 00:15:56,884 Speaker 1: a jaw dropping decision. 294 00:15:58,124 --> 00:16:02,324 Speaker 2: I'm just dealt with enough like corporate suits at these 295 00:16:02,364 --> 00:16:06,404 Speaker 2: companies specifically, where like the bar is pretty low. Somebody 296 00:16:06,444 --> 00:16:08,924 Speaker 2: who's bright and hard working and has built a successful 297 00:16:08,964 --> 00:16:14,284 Speaker 2: editory brand right and understands video, you know, I mean, 298 00:16:14,324 --> 00:16:16,724 Speaker 2: their kindent is pretty tech steady, right, But like it's 299 00:16:16,724 --> 00:16:18,564 Speaker 2: not an easy thing to like build a brand when 300 00:16:18,564 --> 00:16:19,524 Speaker 2: you kind of start out. 301 00:16:19,684 --> 00:16:21,964 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to I'm not trying. I'm not trying 302 00:16:22,004 --> 00:16:26,484 Speaker 1: to say that Barry Weiss does not you know, is 303 00:16:26,524 --> 00:16:28,884 Speaker 1: not good at what she does. I'm not, you know, 304 00:16:29,284 --> 00:16:31,724 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to say that, but I'm saying that 305 00:16:31,764 --> 00:16:35,004 Speaker 1: what she does is not necessarily what I'd be looking 306 00:16:35,084 --> 00:16:39,324 Speaker 1: for in the editor in chief, not the president of 307 00:16:40,004 --> 00:16:44,044 Speaker 1: CBS News, someone who's in charge of the editorial decisions 308 00:16:44,484 --> 00:16:49,764 Speaker 1: of this brand and the editorial decisions across the board. 309 00:16:50,124 --> 00:16:53,004 Speaker 1: So potentially, like what a CBS News saying, are we 310 00:16:53,084 --> 00:16:54,964 Speaker 1: saying we don't want to be a television company at all? 311 00:16:55,044 --> 00:16:57,404 Speaker 1: Are we gonna shut down sixty Minutes? Are we going 312 00:16:57,444 --> 00:17:00,804 Speaker 1: to shut down all of our flagship shows and we're 313 00:17:00,844 --> 00:17:03,324 Speaker 1: not gonna do TV We're gonna do We're just gonna 314 00:17:03,324 --> 00:17:06,484 Speaker 1: become the free press or or whatever it is. If 315 00:17:06,484 --> 00:17:08,604 Speaker 1: that's what they're saying, Okay, well that's one thing. But 316 00:17:08,884 --> 00:17:11,324 Speaker 1: I don't think that's what they're saying. I mean, I 317 00:17:11,324 --> 00:17:13,724 Speaker 1: think they still want to produce some of the best 318 00:17:13,804 --> 00:17:18,884 Speaker 1: quality television. That is some of the best quality news television. 319 00:17:18,884 --> 00:17:21,484 Speaker 1: That's what they're known for. I keep saying sixty Minutes 320 00:17:21,524 --> 00:17:23,564 Speaker 1: because it's one of the most respected brands, not just 321 00:17:23,604 --> 00:17:26,124 Speaker 1: in the United States but in the world. And a 322 00:17:26,124 --> 00:17:28,404 Speaker 1: lot of the people in sixty Minutes quit right over 323 00:17:28,444 --> 00:17:30,644 Speaker 1: the last year because there's been a lot of turmoil 324 00:17:30,724 --> 00:17:33,404 Speaker 1: and CBS has shown that it doesn't have a backbone 325 00:17:33,444 --> 00:17:36,284 Speaker 1: in terms of protecting the quality of it of its 326 00:17:36,404 --> 00:17:40,244 Speaker 1: editorial content. And the independence of its journalists. And so 327 00:17:40,444 --> 00:17:46,564 Speaker 1: this is to me just another reason to be skeptical 328 00:17:46,644 --> 00:17:49,764 Speaker 1: and alarmed. Now she I would be so thrilled, Nate, 329 00:17:49,764 --> 00:17:51,884 Speaker 1: if Barry Wies were to prove me wrong and were 330 00:17:51,924 --> 00:17:54,764 Speaker 1: to come in there and prove that, like you know what, 331 00:17:55,804 --> 00:17:58,924 Speaker 1: she's the best editor in chief CBS has seen. She 332 00:17:59,044 --> 00:18:02,804 Speaker 1: revolutionizes it. She ends up being a free, independent voice 333 00:18:02,844 --> 00:18:06,444 Speaker 1: who speaks truth to the Trump administration just as much 334 00:18:06,444 --> 00:18:09,764 Speaker 1: as she spoke truth to the woke left, and who 335 00:18:09,884 --> 00:18:13,204 Speaker 1: ends up making really good decisions, great hiring decisions, and 336 00:18:13,284 --> 00:18:15,964 Speaker 1: makes CBS News vibrant and relevant. I would love for 337 00:18:16,004 --> 00:18:19,404 Speaker 1: that to be the case CBS News. No, but we 338 00:18:19,484 --> 00:18:23,324 Speaker 1: need someone good, and it has become much less vibrant. 339 00:18:23,724 --> 00:18:27,644 Speaker 1: We need someone You're not even you're not engaging with 340 00:18:27,684 --> 00:18:31,164 Speaker 1: what I'm saying. You're you're picking one little thing, and 341 00:18:31,524 --> 00:18:34,084 Speaker 1: you need someone. As I said, CBS News has been 342 00:18:34,124 --> 00:18:37,124 Speaker 1: falling for the last year, and this is actually more 343 00:18:37,284 --> 00:18:39,764 Speaker 1: of the same. Right, it has lost some of its 344 00:18:39,924 --> 00:18:43,204 Speaker 1: most prominent voices who have left or been forced out, 345 00:18:43,604 --> 00:18:46,284 Speaker 1: and now they've hired Barry Weiss, which kind of doubles 346 00:18:46,324 --> 00:18:50,204 Speaker 1: down on that. And I don't think Ellison has any 347 00:18:50,244 --> 00:18:53,444 Speaker 1: desire to do anything other than make sure he gets 348 00:18:53,484 --> 00:18:55,284 Speaker 1: a lot of money and gets the deals that he 349 00:18:55,324 --> 00:18:59,324 Speaker 1: wants to go through and be approved by the Trump administration. Now, 350 00:19:00,004 --> 00:19:03,484 Speaker 1: once again, as someone who has worked in television, I've 351 00:19:03,524 --> 00:19:07,484 Speaker 1: worked for good producers bad producers. Like there's a huge difference, right, 352 00:19:07,524 --> 00:19:10,884 Speaker 1: the shows don't just make themselves. You need good people 353 00:19:10,924 --> 00:19:14,604 Speaker 1: there otherwise you're going to get absolute shit. And if 354 00:19:14,644 --> 00:19:17,364 Speaker 1: you want a good CBS News, if that's the goal, 355 00:19:17,804 --> 00:19:22,044 Speaker 1: then you know, is this was this the correct hire? 356 00:19:22,484 --> 00:19:26,684 Speaker 1: And what is the future of a news organization where 357 00:19:26,964 --> 00:19:30,444 Speaker 1: it seems like those values are being put aside for 358 00:19:30,684 --> 00:19:36,644 Speaker 1: something that looks like instead of editorial freedom, editorial oversight. 359 00:19:39,284 --> 00:19:40,444 Speaker 1: We'll be back right after this. 360 00:19:49,724 --> 00:19:53,044 Speaker 2: The one I really got my goat was like John Oliver. 361 00:19:53,324 --> 00:19:55,444 Speaker 2: I'm sure some of the readers like John Oliver. Maybe 362 00:19:55,444 --> 00:19:57,684 Speaker 2: some don't fight them to their taste. I'm in the 363 00:19:57,924 --> 00:19:59,644 Speaker 2: latter camp, even though I probably agree with him on 364 00:19:59,724 --> 00:20:02,884 Speaker 2: some stuff, right, I find them kind of hectoring in luxury. 365 00:20:03,404 --> 00:20:07,164 Speaker 2: So John Oliver was making them the same complaint you 366 00:20:07,244 --> 00:20:10,764 Speaker 2: were that like Shay's dead and walked in excuse an 367 00:20:10,844 --> 00:20:13,724 Speaker 2: editorial journalist, right, And like sometimes the facts are wrong, 368 00:20:13,764 --> 00:20:17,764 Speaker 2: and it's like okay, Like you know, John Oliver takes 369 00:20:18,004 --> 00:20:24,324 Speaker 2: predictable opinions from one side of a spectrum, mixes them 370 00:20:24,364 --> 00:20:28,644 Speaker 2: with facts to a degree where it's sometimes ambiguous, kind 371 00:20:28,644 --> 00:20:31,604 Speaker 2: of like what's an opinion and what's the fact? Right, 372 00:20:32,004 --> 00:20:35,844 Speaker 2: and then states to them very confidently, and like, you know, 373 00:20:36,004 --> 00:20:38,084 Speaker 2: for you to criticize Barry Wise of that, which I 374 00:20:38,084 --> 00:20:40,444 Speaker 2: think might be a good characterization of some of what 375 00:20:40,484 --> 00:20:44,284 Speaker 2: they do, right, it just seems like kind of hypocritical, 376 00:20:44,324 --> 00:20:47,164 Speaker 2: And all these opinion journalists are like all his opinion journalists, 377 00:20:47,524 --> 00:20:49,244 Speaker 2: Like why is in York Times have an opinion page? 378 00:20:49,284 --> 00:20:53,444 Speaker 2: I write sometimes in your Times opinion page, right, you know, 379 00:20:53,564 --> 00:20:56,684 Speaker 2: I don't know, right the opinion is actually a vertical 380 00:20:56,724 --> 00:20:59,284 Speaker 2: It sells pretty well for the most part, and like, 381 00:20:59,324 --> 00:21:02,964 Speaker 2: but it just seems to me like a lot of publications, 382 00:21:03,004 --> 00:21:05,124 Speaker 2: including the big three networks pre Trump. I think a 383 00:21:05,124 --> 00:21:08,084 Speaker 2: lot of things have changed now in the Trump era, right, 384 00:21:08,124 --> 00:21:14,564 Speaker 2: but like there is an implicit is sometimes explicit, but 385 00:21:14,644 --> 00:21:18,964 Speaker 2: an implicit left leaning bias, not far left, not Bernie 386 00:21:18,964 --> 00:21:23,964 Speaker 2: Sanders Zoran bias left, their corporate right, maybe not quite 387 00:21:24,004 --> 00:21:27,284 Speaker 2: my kind of center left either, but like on cultural issues. 388 00:21:27,724 --> 00:21:32,004 Speaker 2: They're very progressive, and like what Barry does is kind 389 00:21:32,004 --> 00:21:37,324 Speaker 2: of like give the progressive left, not the zoran left, 390 00:21:37,364 --> 00:21:39,324 Speaker 2: the progressive kind of center left. I call it the 391 00:21:39,324 --> 00:21:42,604 Speaker 2: indgo blob, this merger between on the one hand, non 392 00:21:42,684 --> 00:21:45,764 Speaker 2: partisan media and then kind of like partisan institutions of 393 00:21:46,004 --> 00:21:48,844 Speaker 2: the Democratic Party and the left. Right, she is taking 394 00:21:48,844 --> 00:21:54,164 Speaker 2: that formula to produce on average center right leaning opinions 395 00:21:54,724 --> 00:21:58,004 Speaker 2: with high production guyues, meaning you know, the stories are 396 00:21:58,084 --> 00:22:00,044 Speaker 2: edited well in a sense of like they have a 397 00:22:00,084 --> 00:22:02,204 Speaker 2: good lead paragraph, they have a good headline, they get 398 00:22:02,204 --> 00:22:05,044 Speaker 2: promoted well on social media, they have attractive art to 399 00:22:05,084 --> 00:22:07,524 Speaker 2: the extent that's possible depending on the type of story, 400 00:22:07,564 --> 00:22:10,324 Speaker 2: and so forth. Right, And like that's kind of what 401 00:22:10,404 --> 00:22:12,684 Speaker 2: like a lot of these brands do on the left. 402 00:22:12,684 --> 00:22:15,004 Speaker 2: And is there some implicit or I would say, in 403 00:22:15,004 --> 00:22:19,444 Speaker 2: some cases fairly explicit bias, yes, But like it's the 404 00:22:19,484 --> 00:22:23,004 Speaker 2: same game that you've been seeing on in the progressive 405 00:22:23,084 --> 00:22:25,084 Speaker 2: left for like for a long time now. 406 00:22:25,164 --> 00:22:29,444 Speaker 1: Right, I wouldn't want John Oliver to head CBS News either, Right, 407 00:22:29,524 --> 00:22:33,644 Speaker 1: I don't think that someone who's an opinion columnist, slush, 408 00:22:33,764 --> 00:22:37,164 Speaker 1: an opinion show host, you know, whatever it is, should 409 00:22:37,164 --> 00:22:40,244 Speaker 1: be heading a news organization. That's just me, right, I 410 00:22:40,244 --> 00:22:44,644 Speaker 1: wouldn't want Stephen Colbert running CBS News like I and 411 00:22:44,684 --> 00:22:48,484 Speaker 1: I love him. I don't think that that's that we should. 412 00:22:48,684 --> 00:22:50,964 Speaker 1: You know, if you're saying that, what you're I'm not 413 00:22:51,004 --> 00:22:54,724 Speaker 1: saying you personally, Nate. If one is saying is that 414 00:22:55,044 --> 00:22:57,284 Speaker 1: one wants to be a bastion of free speech and 415 00:22:57,364 --> 00:23:02,284 Speaker 1: try to kind of protect that and be an organization 416 00:23:02,804 --> 00:23:07,764 Speaker 1: that espouses the values of editorial integrity, then at least 417 00:23:07,804 --> 00:23:10,004 Speaker 1: you should try to hire someone who's not an op 418 00:23:10,164 --> 00:23:14,484 Speaker 1: ed columnist with a left or right leaning viewpoint. Right, 419 00:23:15,924 --> 00:23:20,324 Speaker 1: she was, but she was right. But you're saying that 420 00:23:20,364 --> 00:23:21,884 Speaker 1: the wait, hold on, you were just saying that the 421 00:23:21,924 --> 00:23:25,484 Speaker 1: way that her formula was the same right that you 422 00:23:25,524 --> 00:23:27,564 Speaker 1: That's what you were just talking about. You were saying 423 00:23:27,564 --> 00:23:30,244 Speaker 1: that the formula is to have an opinion with some 424 00:23:30,364 --> 00:23:33,124 Speaker 1: facts presented, leaning some direction. 425 00:23:33,284 --> 00:23:35,804 Speaker 2: It's more compliated than that. Right that she did something 426 00:23:35,884 --> 00:23:39,164 Speaker 2: that was ambiguity. If you listen to John Oliver, right, 427 00:23:39,524 --> 00:23:42,724 Speaker 2: like every eight ten things he does are true, says 428 00:23:42,724 --> 00:23:45,604 Speaker 2: are true, but they're cherry picked and spun, and it's 429 00:23:45,684 --> 00:23:48,604 Speaker 2: kind of the same thing right, where like it's taking right. 430 00:23:48,484 --> 00:23:50,164 Speaker 1: Which is why we don't want either one of them. 431 00:23:50,244 --> 00:23:52,364 Speaker 2: A lot of the work that Free Press does, we. 432 00:23:52,324 --> 00:23:55,004 Speaker 1: Don't want either one of them as head of CBS News. 433 00:23:55,284 --> 00:23:57,404 Speaker 2: You think you're not getting out CBS News now. I remember, 434 00:23:57,444 --> 00:24:00,884 Speaker 2: I remember watching in the Pandemic, we had a prinned 435 00:24:00,924 --> 00:24:02,604 Speaker 2: up to her house and they had a story about 436 00:24:02,644 --> 00:24:06,884 Speaker 2: like how Ron DeSantis, the evil governor of Florida, was 437 00:24:06,924 --> 00:24:11,444 Speaker 2: distributing a vaccine at Public which is a giant supermarket 438 00:24:11,484 --> 00:24:13,644 Speaker 2: chain throughout Florida and the South, which to me, she 439 00:24:13,764 --> 00:24:16,604 Speaker 2: was like a fucking fantastic idea, you know, and where 440 00:24:16,604 --> 00:24:19,804 Speaker 2: you turn in Florida there is is an alligator and 441 00:24:19,844 --> 00:24:23,324 Speaker 2: a Public's basically and like you know, like to me, like, 442 00:24:23,364 --> 00:24:25,124 Speaker 2: I mean, that was an example of like, you know, 443 00:24:25,204 --> 00:24:28,884 Speaker 2: we're things narrowly fact sexually, fact chextually, that's not a 444 00:24:28,924 --> 00:24:31,484 Speaker 2: word wrong. Probably some things that sant As people were 445 00:24:31,484 --> 00:24:32,844 Speaker 2: mad about the story. And believe me, I'm not a 446 00:24:32,844 --> 00:24:34,684 Speaker 2: fan of run the Santa Say at all, but like 447 00:24:34,844 --> 00:24:36,604 Speaker 2: that was a story that was a it was a biased, 448 00:24:36,604 --> 00:24:37,284 Speaker 2: fucking story. 449 00:24:37,364 --> 00:24:40,244 Speaker 1: Right now, of course you're misunderstanding me. I'm saying that 450 00:24:40,244 --> 00:24:42,284 Speaker 1: that's not a good that's not a good thing. Right, 451 00:24:42,444 --> 00:24:46,164 Speaker 1: We're we're not We're not saying that those that cherry 452 00:24:46,164 --> 00:24:48,444 Speaker 1: picking to the left or to the right is a 453 00:24:48,484 --> 00:24:52,724 Speaker 1: good thing. And so why would you pick someone whose 454 00:24:53,004 --> 00:24:56,844 Speaker 1: entire mo O was to create a publication like that 455 00:24:56,844 --> 00:25:00,164 Speaker 1: that has become much more right leaning. Don't you want 456 00:25:00,164 --> 00:25:03,444 Speaker 1: to at least start off with you know, Okay, fine, 457 00:25:03,484 --> 00:25:06,044 Speaker 1: maybe there there will end up being some bias, because 458 00:25:06,804 --> 00:25:10,044 Speaker 1: there always is. There's no such thing as an unbiased 459 00:25:10,084 --> 00:25:15,164 Speaker 1: piece of storytelling ever, because even the most factually correct 460 00:25:15,604 --> 00:25:18,164 Speaker 1: story is going to have a point of view on 461 00:25:18,244 --> 00:25:20,604 Speaker 1: which order to present the facts. You know, we can 462 00:25:20,684 --> 00:25:23,124 Speaker 1: get all philosophical about this, but there's no such thing 463 00:25:23,244 --> 00:25:25,644 Speaker 1: as an objective piece of writing. Like it just does 464 00:25:25,684 --> 00:25:28,924 Speaker 1: not exist. And we can, you can, I will, I 465 00:25:28,964 --> 00:25:32,004 Speaker 1: will die on that hill. True objectivity is impossible. 466 00:25:32,164 --> 00:25:32,524 Speaker 3: Okay. 467 00:25:32,844 --> 00:25:36,004 Speaker 1: Now, if we are saying that we still we want 468 00:25:36,044 --> 00:25:38,884 Speaker 1: to be a place that is open to all viewpoints, 469 00:25:38,884 --> 00:25:41,284 Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera, don't you at least want to 470 00:25:41,324 --> 00:25:44,524 Speaker 1: start with someone in charge of that organization whose whole 471 00:25:44,684 --> 00:25:46,644 Speaker 1: mo wasn't something different. 472 00:25:55,164 --> 00:25:57,084 Speaker 2: And we'll be right back after this break. 473 00:26:09,844 --> 00:26:11,924 Speaker 1: By the way, if CBS was like, hey, Maria, you 474 00:26:11,964 --> 00:26:14,404 Speaker 1: should be our editor in chief, I'd be like, absolutely not. 475 00:26:14,604 --> 00:26:17,964 Speaker 1: I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes 476 00:26:17,964 --> 00:26:21,764 Speaker 1: to saidthing like that. You know, I know some specific 477 00:26:21,804 --> 00:26:24,044 Speaker 1: parts of the business from having worked on them, but like, 478 00:26:24,724 --> 00:26:27,084 Speaker 1: I'm not that person, right, that's not my world. 479 00:26:28,604 --> 00:26:32,644 Speaker 2: This is the weird part. Right. If if CBS paramount 480 00:26:32,684 --> 00:26:35,884 Speaker 2: came to me and said, we'll offer to buy Silver 481 00:26:35,924 --> 00:26:39,244 Speaker 2: bulletin for one hundred and fifty million dollars, and how 482 00:26:39,284 --> 00:26:41,924 Speaker 2: much of that is my what are the terms, et cetera, 483 00:26:42,004 --> 00:26:45,044 Speaker 2: But I'd be very pleased to have that. Please have 484 00:26:45,044 --> 00:26:46,924 Speaker 2: that offer, Marie. You're after to playing some high rollers 485 00:26:46,924 --> 00:26:50,364 Speaker 2: in the World Series next summer. If they then said 486 00:26:51,004 --> 00:26:53,044 Speaker 2: you have to be editor in chief of CBS News, 487 00:26:53,084 --> 00:26:55,764 Speaker 2: I'd be like, no fucking way, right, it's a really 488 00:26:55,804 --> 00:26:59,404 Speaker 2: bad job you have. These are big bureaucratic news organizations 489 00:26:59,404 --> 00:27:01,644 Speaker 2: that like have a lot of people. They were once 490 00:27:01,764 --> 00:27:06,004 Speaker 2: highly secured jobs and now they're becoming less so, right, 491 00:27:06,044 --> 00:27:08,844 Speaker 2: and so you have kind of like the old guard 492 00:27:08,964 --> 00:27:12,044 Speaker 2: journalist too, are terrified for their livelihood. You have the 493 00:27:12,124 --> 00:27:15,324 Speaker 2: kind of younger, progressive, woke staff. You have ownership who's 494 00:27:15,364 --> 00:27:19,084 Speaker 2: trying to please Trump. You have a perpetually declining, although 495 00:27:19,124 --> 00:27:21,164 Speaker 2: these networks still give more audience. You might think their 496 00:27:21,404 --> 00:27:24,564 Speaker 2: for their Sunday shows, right and their evening shows right 497 00:27:25,004 --> 00:27:28,444 Speaker 2: in perpetual decline. Right. And you kind of come into 498 00:27:28,484 --> 00:27:31,844 Speaker 2: a job where a lot of people, probably not all 499 00:27:31,924 --> 00:27:34,004 Speaker 2: the staff, maybe not most of the staff, but a 500 00:27:34,004 --> 00:27:36,444 Speaker 2: lot of people kind of publicly hate your guts. I mean, 501 00:27:36,444 --> 00:27:39,444 Speaker 2: that sounds like a fucking terrible job. For one hundred 502 00:27:39,444 --> 00:27:42,964 Speaker 2: and fifty million dollars, I do it, But like I 503 00:27:42,964 --> 00:27:44,884 Speaker 2: wouldn't do that job for two million dollars a year. 504 00:27:44,924 --> 00:27:46,684 Speaker 2: I'm not fucking kidding, right, Like, I mean, that job 505 00:27:46,804 --> 00:27:50,204 Speaker 2: is like it's a terrible fucking job. Which makes me wonder, 506 00:27:50,324 --> 00:27:54,484 Speaker 2: is that this Barry want that to reshape the newsroom? 507 00:27:54,484 --> 00:27:57,164 Speaker 2: Where does Ellison want that for her? 508 00:27:57,284 --> 00:27:57,364 Speaker 1: Or? 509 00:27:57,484 --> 00:27:59,364 Speaker 2: I mean she's very ambitious, right, And one, you know, 510 00:27:59,364 --> 00:28:00,884 Speaker 2: I'm a little bit older than her, not that much older, 511 00:28:00,924 --> 00:28:02,324 Speaker 2: I don't think, but like a little bit older. And 512 00:28:02,404 --> 00:28:04,444 Speaker 2: like one thing, it's nice, it's like I got my 513 00:28:04,524 --> 00:28:08,564 Speaker 2: phase where I wanted to like dominate and take over 514 00:28:09,484 --> 00:28:12,284 Speaker 2: the media landscape out of the way with five thirty 515 00:28:12,324 --> 00:28:16,164 Speaker 2: eight at a big corporate news organization called ABC. 516 00:28:16,484 --> 00:28:16,644 Speaker 3: Right. 517 00:28:16,644 --> 00:28:18,364 Speaker 2: And also you know she is used to being an 518 00:28:18,404 --> 00:28:21,884 Speaker 2: environment where like she is the equity holder, and therefore, 519 00:28:21,964 --> 00:28:25,484 Speaker 2: when you grow, then you capture those proceeds. You can 520 00:28:25,564 --> 00:28:27,444 Speaker 2: choose to reinvest those pro seeds. You can choose to 521 00:28:27,484 --> 00:28:30,204 Speaker 2: take a nice, you know, vacation somewhere, you can choose 522 00:28:30,204 --> 00:28:34,564 Speaker 2: to hire more staff or whatever else. Right, And my 523 00:28:34,644 --> 00:28:36,724 Speaker 2: advice to her would be like, when you go from 524 00:28:36,804 --> 00:28:40,724 Speaker 2: kind of being the owner to being kind of the patron, 525 00:28:41,324 --> 00:28:46,444 Speaker 2: then that changes the incentives quite as absolutely absolutely. 526 00:28:46,764 --> 00:28:49,484 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, one of the things, this is 527 00:28:49,524 --> 00:28:52,684 Speaker 1: something that we haven't really talked about, but from her perspective, 528 00:28:52,804 --> 00:28:57,644 Speaker 1: it's actually a really interesting question because she's someone who 529 00:28:57,724 --> 00:29:00,644 Speaker 1: left The New York Times. She wasn't fired. She chose 530 00:29:00,684 --> 00:29:03,404 Speaker 1: to quit because she felt like she at least the 531 00:29:03,404 --> 00:29:06,084 Speaker 1: way that she phrased it. Obviously, I have zero insider information. 532 00:29:06,124 --> 00:29:08,924 Speaker 1: I've never met Barrywise, but the way that she publicly 533 00:29:08,964 --> 00:29:12,564 Speaker 1: framed it is, you know, I want to be even 534 00:29:12,564 --> 00:29:15,084 Speaker 1: though like no one's forcing me out, and I was 535 00:29:15,204 --> 00:29:18,684 Speaker 1: hired for kind of express it to express more conservative 536 00:29:18,684 --> 00:29:20,684 Speaker 1: opinions like I want to be even more free, right, 537 00:29:20,764 --> 00:29:23,124 Speaker 1: Like I want to be in an environment where I 538 00:29:23,124 --> 00:29:25,164 Speaker 1: feel like I can do like my my own thing 539 00:29:25,284 --> 00:29:28,444 Speaker 1: and like really frame the conversation. So, you know, so 540 00:29:28,564 --> 00:29:30,644 Speaker 1: she left the New York Times to be you know, free, 541 00:29:30,724 --> 00:29:33,644 Speaker 1: to be even more herself. She founds the Free Press, 542 00:29:33,844 --> 00:29:36,964 Speaker 1: which is her own publication, right where she makes the 543 00:29:37,084 --> 00:29:41,724 Speaker 1: editorial decisions. She chooses what they cover, she chooses how 544 00:29:41,764 --> 00:29:44,444 Speaker 1: they cover it, you know, when they host presidential debates, 545 00:29:44,444 --> 00:29:48,044 Speaker 1: she chooses, you know, exactly how she wants to do it. 546 00:29:48,524 --> 00:29:53,284 Speaker 1: And you know, being being someone who was always so 547 00:29:53,484 --> 00:29:57,684 Speaker 1: vocal about needing to be fiercely independent, you then get 548 00:29:57,684 --> 00:30:01,604 Speaker 1: on Ellison's payroll, right, and there's no other way of 549 00:30:01,644 --> 00:30:04,484 Speaker 1: putting it right, Like you that that is that is 550 00:30:04,644 --> 00:30:09,004 Speaker 1: actually literally what is what is happening? I hate to say, like, Barry, 551 00:30:09,044 --> 00:30:11,044 Speaker 1: are you out like hell? For one hundred and fifty 552 00:30:11,244 --> 00:30:14,404 Speaker 1: million dollars, I'd sell out and go and probably go 553 00:30:16,004 --> 00:30:18,524 Speaker 1: do something like that. It's a lot of money. No 554 00:30:18,684 --> 00:30:22,444 Speaker 1: judgment in terms of people taking life changing money. Maybe 555 00:30:22,484 --> 00:30:28,164 Speaker 1: a little bit of judgment, we'll see, but you know, 556 00:30:28,204 --> 00:30:31,284 Speaker 1: it's in terms of her own goals, in terms of 557 00:30:31,324 --> 00:30:34,284 Speaker 1: like what are you going to be able to do? 558 00:30:34,924 --> 00:30:38,764 Speaker 1: You're being put in a position where maybe what you said, 559 00:30:38,844 --> 00:30:42,004 Speaker 1: you know, five years ago, that was the thing that 560 00:30:42,044 --> 00:30:45,684 Speaker 1: you stood for is not compatible necessarily with the role 561 00:30:45,724 --> 00:30:48,524 Speaker 1: that you chose and the way that you will now 562 00:30:48,604 --> 00:30:52,124 Speaker 1: have to be answering to kind of corporate powers that 563 00:30:52,164 --> 00:30:58,044 Speaker 1: be and political forces that are strong, and that hired 564 00:30:58,084 --> 00:30:59,484 Speaker 1: you for a very specific reason. 565 00:31:00,604 --> 00:31:03,924 Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, she is the number one publication free press, 566 00:31:04,204 --> 00:31:06,164 Speaker 2: which is a lot of people on sub stack. Right. 567 00:31:06,884 --> 00:31:10,564 Speaker 2: Number two was Heather Cox Richardson, who just sends out 568 00:31:10,604 --> 00:31:13,764 Speaker 2: a newsletter at one am every day, lives in Maine, 569 00:31:14,484 --> 00:31:16,724 Speaker 2: has no real staff, as far as I can tell, 570 00:31:16,764 --> 00:31:21,524 Speaker 2: has no real format a right, occasionally does a media appearances. Right, 571 00:31:21,604 --> 00:31:24,524 Speaker 2: And she's making I know how much she's making, but 572 00:31:24,604 --> 00:31:27,484 Speaker 2: I can't say, right, but like she's just making all 573 00:31:27,524 --> 00:31:32,044 Speaker 2: that money and like apparently keeping it for her and 574 00:31:32,124 --> 00:31:34,484 Speaker 2: her I think she's like a hot like lobster man 575 00:31:34,564 --> 00:31:38,924 Speaker 2: husband in Maine or something, right, not the one running 576 00:31:38,924 --> 00:31:43,484 Speaker 2: for Yeah, and like yeah, no, I mean not a 577 00:31:43,524 --> 00:31:46,764 Speaker 2: bad life, right, But the point is that like no, 578 00:31:46,844 --> 00:31:48,364 Speaker 2: and look, I guess it's like a little bit personal 579 00:31:48,364 --> 00:31:49,724 Speaker 2: because like, you know, and I'm kind of in this 580 00:31:49,804 --> 00:31:52,844 Speaker 2: in between zone right where I I you know, I 581 00:31:52,964 --> 00:31:57,844 Speaker 2: hired uh, you know, Eli my politics analysts became full 582 00:31:57,884 --> 00:32:00,244 Speaker 2: time we hired a sports analyst. I'm probably looking to 583 00:32:00,364 --> 00:32:03,444 Speaker 2: looking ahead to next year and like probably gonna have 584 00:32:03,484 --> 00:32:05,364 Speaker 2: to hire another person, right, But I don't want to 585 00:32:05,364 --> 00:32:08,764 Speaker 2: recreate five thirty eight where I had like thirty people, 586 00:32:08,764 --> 00:32:11,524 Speaker 2: because yeah, look, even if you're nominally the editor in 587 00:32:11,604 --> 00:32:13,684 Speaker 2: chief and I have been an editor in chief, right, 588 00:32:14,644 --> 00:32:18,764 Speaker 2: then between corporate ownership and the staff, right, I mean 589 00:32:18,804 --> 00:32:21,284 Speaker 2: the point if I had thirty people, then it becomes, 590 00:32:21,404 --> 00:32:22,964 Speaker 2: you know, all of a sudden, the work I do 591 00:32:23,084 --> 00:32:25,004 Speaker 2: is representative of them, and like you kind of lose 592 00:32:25,084 --> 00:32:27,964 Speaker 2: control over over the hiring process. 593 00:32:28,044 --> 00:32:28,124 Speaker 3: Right. 594 00:32:28,204 --> 00:32:30,204 Speaker 2: So like my objective not that people should necessarily care, 595 00:32:30,284 --> 00:32:31,844 Speaker 2: is like, you know, I want to keep thinks kind 596 00:32:31,884 --> 00:32:36,844 Speaker 2: of more close knit, right, whereas is Barry is kind 597 00:32:36,844 --> 00:32:42,044 Speaker 2: of like let's take a big shot, right, Let's I mean, 598 00:32:42,084 --> 00:32:48,004 Speaker 2: she's got maybe more of the high risk entrepreneurial spirit. 599 00:32:48,164 --> 00:32:50,484 Speaker 2: I guess it is, right, but you know, the juxposition 600 00:32:50,564 --> 00:32:54,164 Speaker 2: of like that with like these dodgy old media companies 601 00:32:54,164 --> 00:32:56,644 Speaker 2: that I know a lot a lot about in my 602 00:32:56,724 --> 00:32:59,084 Speaker 2: own way too, having worked for ABC, is just like 603 00:32:59,444 --> 00:33:05,764 Speaker 2: I predict that she is going to become extremely frustrated, right, 604 00:33:06,204 --> 00:33:07,844 Speaker 2: And like the other thing that bugs me too, is 605 00:33:08,164 --> 00:33:10,644 Speaker 2: you know, I kind of hate the fact that, like, 606 00:33:11,244 --> 00:33:16,644 Speaker 2: why can't things just be medium sized and good and profitable? 607 00:33:16,684 --> 00:33:19,044 Speaker 2: Why is everything have to blow up so much? 608 00:33:19,204 --> 00:33:19,324 Speaker 3: Right? 609 00:33:19,524 --> 00:33:21,924 Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to say, Okay, the free press, we're 610 00:33:21,924 --> 00:33:25,324 Speaker 2: doing very well. Right, We'll continue to expand the user base, 611 00:33:25,444 --> 00:33:28,244 Speaker 2: and then we're gonna kind of generate a lot of income. 612 00:33:28,284 --> 00:33:29,924 Speaker 2: We can do with income what we want. We can 613 00:33:30,004 --> 00:33:32,484 Speaker 2: invest in the business and other business. Just keep the money. 614 00:33:32,524 --> 00:33:34,684 Speaker 2: It's capitalism. I have no problem with like people having 615 00:33:34,724 --> 00:33:37,644 Speaker 2: money at any point whatsoever, Right, but like, why do 616 00:33:37,684 --> 00:33:41,084 Speaker 2: we have to like fucking always like take over everything 617 00:33:41,084 --> 00:33:42,924 Speaker 2: and take over the world and not just say, like 618 00:33:43,164 --> 00:33:44,764 Speaker 2: we're at one of the you know, we have over 619 00:33:44,804 --> 00:33:48,324 Speaker 2: one hundred thousand subscribers. We're bigger already than paid subcribers, right, 620 00:33:48,324 --> 00:33:50,804 Speaker 2: We're bigger already than like terms of the print circulation 621 00:33:51,044 --> 00:33:56,044 Speaker 2: all but like one or two newspapers right in digital circulation, 622 00:33:56,204 --> 00:33:59,124 Speaker 2: you know, getting pretty far up there. And instead it's like, okay, 623 00:33:59,164 --> 00:34:00,564 Speaker 2: why do you you know, it's just a little bit 624 00:34:00,564 --> 00:34:03,204 Speaker 2: baffling to me that like there's so much emphasis and 625 00:34:03,204 --> 00:34:05,724 Speaker 2: a lot of these entrepreneurs and media I don't run 626 00:34:05,724 --> 00:34:08,964 Speaker 2: a shit about like I would trust Barry Weiss before Ellison. 627 00:34:09,564 --> 00:34:12,484 Speaker 2: You know what I mean? A million times over, that's 628 00:34:12,484 --> 00:34:13,204 Speaker 2: not saying much. 629 00:34:13,564 --> 00:34:20,444 Speaker 3: Yes, so so okay, let's let's wrap up here then, 630 00:34:21,004 --> 00:34:24,164 Speaker 3: So if we're gonna frame this, you know, with what 631 00:34:24,204 --> 00:34:26,764 Speaker 3: we sometimes do on the show, like good call, bad call, 632 00:34:27,804 --> 00:34:31,924 Speaker 3: the hiring of Barry Weiss as editor in chief of 633 00:34:32,044 --> 00:34:34,124 Speaker 3: CBS News, and you can't hedge. 634 00:34:34,124 --> 00:34:35,804 Speaker 1: It has to be good call or bad call? Is 635 00:34:35,804 --> 00:34:38,564 Speaker 1: it a good call or is it a bad call? 636 00:34:38,604 --> 00:34:43,564 Speaker 2: What are his objectives? Too? Well? 637 00:34:43,764 --> 00:34:46,564 Speaker 1: His objective is to make lots of money for himself personally, 638 00:34:47,324 --> 00:34:53,684 Speaker 1: I think. But let's say to have a vibrant news organization. 639 00:34:53,884 --> 00:34:56,524 Speaker 1: Let's let's uh take him out as word that the 640 00:34:56,604 --> 00:35:00,324 Speaker 1: objective is to make CBS a vibrant news organization and 641 00:35:00,404 --> 00:35:04,684 Speaker 1: a bastion of true free speech that protects free speech 642 00:35:04,804 --> 00:35:07,684 Speaker 1: on all sides of the political spectrum and is a 643 00:35:07,804 --> 00:35:11,324 Speaker 1: relevant voice in media and a respected voice in media. 644 00:35:11,564 --> 00:35:12,404 Speaker 1: Good call, bad call? 645 00:35:13,204 --> 00:35:16,604 Speaker 2: Those are like different objectives, right, like I I you know, 646 00:35:16,844 --> 00:35:20,324 Speaker 2: they'll probably get better at avoiding a certain type of 647 00:35:20,364 --> 00:35:23,164 Speaker 2: progressive bias sometimes involve shutting down speech and substing with 648 00:35:23,244 --> 00:35:26,284 Speaker 2: it their own various kind of biases right now, Look, 649 00:35:26,324 --> 00:35:28,444 Speaker 2: I think it's if they are doing this for purely 650 00:35:29,444 --> 00:35:34,084 Speaker 2: journalistic reasons, then it's high risk, probably leaning bad. Right, 651 00:35:34,164 --> 00:35:37,484 Speaker 2: for financial reasons, I think the evaluation is quite reasonable. 652 00:35:37,644 --> 00:35:37,764 Speaker 3: Right. 653 00:35:38,044 --> 00:35:42,124 Speaker 2: If it's for political reasons, then then who knows, right, 654 00:35:42,244 --> 00:35:44,124 Speaker 2: I mean Trump, I mean it's a weird model because 655 00:35:44,164 --> 00:35:48,004 Speaker 2: like Trump certainly does rather explicitly play favorites. 656 00:35:48,884 --> 00:35:51,364 Speaker 1: Yeah, so so give me, give me a final give 657 00:35:51,404 --> 00:35:52,204 Speaker 1: me a final judgment. 658 00:35:52,324 --> 00:35:52,444 Speaker 2: Night. 659 00:35:52,604 --> 00:35:54,604 Speaker 1: I started off by saying no caveats, and that was 660 00:35:54,724 --> 00:35:58,404 Speaker 1: what one big caveat is the buying. 661 00:35:58,164 --> 00:36:00,964 Speaker 2: The Free Press good call? Having her be editor in 662 00:36:01,124 --> 00:36:03,084 Speaker 2: chief bad call? 663 00:36:03,324 --> 00:36:04,964 Speaker 1: All right, that's a that's a. 664 00:36:07,084 --> 00:36:08,204 Speaker 2: Are you bad call? Back call? 665 00:36:08,364 --> 00:36:13,564 Speaker 1: I'm bad call bad? I think I think for for 666 00:36:13,764 --> 00:36:17,324 Speaker 1: reasons that I've already that I've already made quite clear. 667 00:36:17,524 --> 00:36:19,844 Speaker 1: And like I said, this is not a not a 668 00:36:19,964 --> 00:36:22,564 Speaker 1: dig on barrier what she accomplished at Free Press. I 669 00:36:22,724 --> 00:36:26,044 Speaker 1: just think it's it's a bad sign for the types 670 00:36:26,084 --> 00:36:29,964 Speaker 1: of lofty goals of editorial integrity, free speech, et cetera, 671 00:36:30,004 --> 00:36:34,924 Speaker 1: et cetera that CBS was once known for and hopes 672 00:36:35,004 --> 00:36:37,884 Speaker 1: to be known for years ago. Hopes to be yeah, 673 00:36:38,404 --> 00:36:41,044 Speaker 1: hopes to be known for once again. So yeah, I 674 00:36:41,084 --> 00:36:45,324 Speaker 1: think I think bad call, bad call, But I would love, love, 675 00:36:45,724 --> 00:36:49,124 Speaker 1: love to be wrong, like I really would, because I 676 00:36:49,524 --> 00:36:53,404 Speaker 1: want journalism to thrive, and I want the people at 677 00:36:53,444 --> 00:36:56,404 Speaker 1: CBS to thrive, and I want good people to be hired. 678 00:36:56,764 --> 00:36:59,724 Speaker 1: And so I really, I really hope that Barry Weiss 679 00:36:59,764 --> 00:37:02,324 Speaker 1: will pleasantly surprise me and will end up being a 680 00:37:02,404 --> 00:37:04,604 Speaker 1: much better editor in chief than I think she's going 681 00:37:04,684 --> 00:37:08,444 Speaker 1: to be. And if so, I will happily, you know, 682 00:37:08,644 --> 00:37:11,724 Speaker 1: come on Riskyusiness and say I was wrong. Yay, I'm 683 00:37:11,844 --> 00:37:24,884 Speaker 1: very happy that I was wrong. Let us know what 684 00:37:24,964 --> 00:37:26,884 Speaker 1: you think of the show. Reach out to us at 685 00:37:27,044 --> 00:37:31,844 Speaker 1: Risky Business at pushkin dot FM. Risky Business is hosted 686 00:37:31,884 --> 00:37:33,764 Speaker 1: by me Maria Kanakova. 687 00:37:33,484 --> 00:37:36,244 Speaker 2: And by me Nate Silver. The show was a cool 688 00:37:36,244 --> 00:37:40,204 Speaker 2: production of Pushing Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced 689 00:37:40,244 --> 00:37:44,564 Speaker 2: by Isaac Carter. Our associate producer is Sonya gerwit Lydia 690 00:37:44,684 --> 00:37:47,564 Speaker 2: Jean Kott and Daphne Chen are our editors, and our 691 00:37:47,604 --> 00:37:51,484 Speaker 2: executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. Mixing by Sarah Brubert. 692 00:37:52,204 --> 00:37:54,444 Speaker 1: If you like the show, please rate and review us 693 00:37:54,484 --> 00:37:57,124 Speaker 1: so other people can find us too. But once again, 694 00:37:57,284 --> 00:37:59,084 Speaker 1: only if you like us. We don't want those bad 695 00:37:59,124 --> 00:38:01,244 Speaker 1: reviews out there. Thanks for tuning in.