1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,680
Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

2
00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:06,359
Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

3
00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,360
Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

4
00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,240
Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

5
00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:15,760
Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

6
00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:17,680
Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

7
00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:19,520
Speaker 1: there's got to be nothing new here for you, but

8
00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:27,480
Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions. The sun never sets

9
00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,840
Speaker 1: on the British Empire because God doesn't trust the British

10
00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,440
Speaker 1: in the dark. Welcome to It could happen here a

11
00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,000
Speaker 1: podcast at hold. So the only good American tradition is

12
00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,080
Speaker 1: rebellion against the British. I'm your host, Mia Wong, and

13
00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,080
Speaker 1: today we're gonna be talking about the happenings in their

14
00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:47,120
Speaker 1: perfidious Albion. Joining me live from one of the most

15
00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,920
Speaker 1: accursed states currently in existence is Sophie from Mars, the

16
00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,520
Speaker 1: co host of Red Planet a week you Leftist Brown Table,

17
00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,360
Speaker 1: who does many other wonderful things that involve anarchism and

18
00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,720
Speaker 1: organizing and stuff. Sophie, how how are you? How are

19
00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,920
Speaker 1: you hanging in there in this sort of incusingly failed

20
00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,520
Speaker 1: state in the very good. That was a very good introduction.

21
00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:09,800
Speaker 1: I do think that Britain is largely out of God's

22
00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,160
Speaker 1: sight and by consequence, outside of his love. So I

23
00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,640
Speaker 1: think he summed it up pretty well. I mean, I'm okay.

24
00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:18,160
Speaker 1: I had an experience to minor hate crime today, so

25
00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,200
Speaker 1: it's another normal day of being a trans person in

26
00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:22,560
Speaker 1: the UK. Some guy tried to film me on his

27
00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:24,760
Speaker 1: phone and I was like, hey, I can see that

28
00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:26,640
Speaker 1: you're filming me, and he didn't like argue you and

29
00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:28,440
Speaker 1: be like no I wasn't, so I know that he was.

30
00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,600
Speaker 1: It was very cool. Yeah, yeah, Turf Turf Island continues

31
00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,680
Speaker 1: to be incredibly normal. And by incredible normal, I mean this. Look.

32
00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,039
Speaker 1: Look at the at the end of World War Two,

33
00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,800
Speaker 1: lots of states were divided into pieces. The UK should

34
00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:47,920
Speaker 1: have been one of them. I hold, but on it now,

35
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:50,760
Speaker 1: Oh that's true. I mean trans people, we are working

36
00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,240
Speaker 1: on destroying of the Union. Yeah, this is this is

37
00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,880
Speaker 1: all bad. It created incredible stuff coming. I really thought

38
00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,560
Speaker 1: it was going to be Brexit, that that final we destroyed.

39
00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,840
Speaker 1: He had a kingdom and of trans people that finally

40
00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:09,200
Speaker 1: did it. Truly incredible stuff. So you want to ask

41
00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:14,480
Speaker 1: me what it's like to be British, you know, Okay,

42
00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,360
Speaker 1: So I well, I mean, should we both do like

43
00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:19,720
Speaker 1: accents for this one? Should we should we both feel like,

44
00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:25,080
Speaker 1: oh my governor, let's rumphy, So what eo pie and

45
00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:32,440
Speaker 1: smashed peas? Oh okay? So I okay. You know, I

46
00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,960
Speaker 1: spent some time looking at like sort of British export

47
00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,040
Speaker 1: charts and like as much stuff in the British economy,

48
00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,919
Speaker 1: and none of them at any point had Britain's chief export,

49
00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,680
Speaker 1: which is jokes about Britain. No I no, no, no,

50
00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:51,239
Speaker 1: wondering your economies and shamboos. Export is like white supremacist

51
00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,040
Speaker 1: war crimes. That's true. But the thing is like they're

52
00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,040
Speaker 1: they're they're the UKs of like ability to export white

53
00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,639
Speaker 1: supremacist war crimes is at an all time low. It's

54
00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,440
Speaker 1: kind of like it. It's really funny. I was in Armenia,

55
00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,560
Speaker 1: like fairly recently for sagery, and I went to a

56
00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,239
Speaker 1: talk by someone who like used to work in DC

57
00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,040
Speaker 1: and I worked with the Armenian government, and they were

58
00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,880
Speaker 1: talking about like how what kind of external support they

59
00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,240
Speaker 1: could expect for like the conflict without as a baishan,

60
00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:19,840
Speaker 1: and someone brought up Britain and he was just like,

61
00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,959
Speaker 1: Britain's not really a player on the international stage any Yeah,

62
00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,079
Speaker 1: it's it's not that funny, but it's kind of like

63
00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:33,520
Speaker 1: a sign of what the UK actually is now, which

64
00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:35,600
Speaker 1: is since you also at eleven, the British were like

65
00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:37,320
Speaker 1: one of the first people who decided they were going

66
00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,680
Speaker 1: to bomb Godoffy. But the problem is the British, the

67
00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,640
Speaker 1: British like air Force was capable of dropping of doing

68
00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,720
Speaker 1: like maybe like three or four bombing runs before they

69
00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,320
Speaker 1: just straight up ran out of fuel. And the whole

70
00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:50,760
Speaker 1: thing was like they like they had to draw the

71
00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:52,960
Speaker 1: U West in because the British no longer like had

72
00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,720
Speaker 1: they had like actual build chair capability to do imperialism anymore.

73
00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,200
Speaker 1: So I think things are think think things are not

74
00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,960
Speaker 1: great in the in the sort of white supremacy factory.

75
00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,040
Speaker 1: We really we have reached like a really bizarre point

76
00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,520
Speaker 1: where our ruling class is divided. Like um, the whole

77
00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:10,720
Speaker 1: story of like the Dullest Brothers and the creation of

78
00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,240
Speaker 1: the CIA is like we are going through that inner

79
00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:14,960
Speaker 1: of us at this point. But we've had one of

80
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,440
Speaker 1: the most interventionist histories of any country ever and now

81
00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,760
Speaker 1: our ruling class is divided between we should carry on

82
00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,279
Speaker 1: doing interventionism because it benefits us to be the worst,

83
00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:30,280
Speaker 1: most ghoulish, vampiric country conceivable, and we shouldn't do that

84
00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,800
Speaker 1: because it costs money. And why are we spending money

85
00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:37,599
Speaker 1: on brown people? Yeah, which just two terrible possessions, baffling out. Yeah,

86
00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,120
Speaker 1: it's it's fun, it's it's it's it's a good time

87
00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,760
Speaker 1: in the UK. So, you know, speaking of speaking of

88
00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:45,800
Speaker 1: it being a good time with the UK, I so

89
00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:48,680
Speaker 1: I saw, I've seen this before and I didn't like,

90
00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:50,600
Speaker 1: I didn't quite believe it. And I look at the

91
00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,080
Speaker 1: numbers and we were talking about this a bit before

92
00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,320
Speaker 1: we got on, but it looks like the UK right

93
00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,520
Speaker 1: now is pet projected economic performance is worse than Rusha's,

94
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:01,680
Speaker 1: which is incredible because that is a country that is

95
00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,760
Speaker 1: like under just unbelievably debilitating sanctions and is also like

96
00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,839
Speaker 1: losing a war. And the UK's economy is more fucked

97
00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,080
Speaker 1: than a country that he's being shot with missiles. Like wow,

98
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,800
Speaker 1: I mean we are we we are also losing a war,

99
00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,160
Speaker 1: but it's it's a war of ideas, that's true. So yeah,

100
00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,680
Speaker 1: I think I think we should probably when when When

101
00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,880
Speaker 1: When when we last left the United Kingdom on this show.

102
00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:33,000
Speaker 1: I think it was I think Liz Trust had just

103
00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:37,360
Speaker 1: been overthrown and we were now on UK is no

104
00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:42,360
Speaker 1: one what their second consecutive unelected prime minister? So no, no, Mia,

105
00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,360
Speaker 1: Mia a second consecutive Oh no, right, because I never no, no, no,

106
00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,760
Speaker 1: no no. They elected Boris Johnson. Right, So this is

107
00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:50,640
Speaker 1: this is a good place to stop. This is a

108
00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:55,960
Speaker 1: really good place to stop. Since Tony Blair, we haven't

109
00:05:56,080 --> 00:06:00,839
Speaker 1: had a Prime minister who we elected to into power

110
00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,560
Speaker 1: like no, sorry, since David Cameron. We did actually elect

111
00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:05,960
Speaker 1: David Cameron, but kind but only kind of like kind

112
00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:08,920
Speaker 1: of maybe so like we had we had Blair, who

113
00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,560
Speaker 1: is terrible and is worth getting into for a whole

114
00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,280
Speaker 1: discussion in a minute. And then we had Brown who

115
00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,680
Speaker 1: was his chancellor so kind of like vice president who

116
00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:23,120
Speaker 1: stepped in and then he lost to Cameron. Only Cameron

117
00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:24,760
Speaker 1: like had a coalition. That's why I say it's like

118
00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,120
Speaker 1: it's kind of yeah, he had the Lib Dem thing,

119
00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:31,840
Speaker 1: and the Lib Dems decided to literally go back and

120
00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,240
Speaker 1: everything that's ever done and the main so the main

121
00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:35,840
Speaker 1: thing that was happening with the Lib Dems was they

122
00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,640
Speaker 1: promised to protect student loan prices from going up, and

123
00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,520
Speaker 1: like they had got massive support from young people and

124
00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:44,680
Speaker 1: anyone who can see why it's good to be able

125
00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:49,279
Speaker 1: to offer young people an education, especially because like Blair

126
00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:54,240
Speaker 1: had this big famous speech where he was like education, education, education,

127
00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,720
Speaker 1: that's my excellent Tony Blair impression. Um he um. And

128
00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,560
Speaker 1: and that's also worth getting into as a it's a

129
00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:06,800
Speaker 1: very multifaceted level of parasitic fuckery his whole education thing.

130
00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,320
Speaker 1: But because he had focused on education, loads of people

131
00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,320
Speaker 1: were really passionate about it. And then the Lib Dems

132
00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,640
Speaker 1: were like, we're going to stop them from making university

133
00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,560
Speaker 1: fees nine thousand pounds a year, and that was what

134
00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:20,840
Speaker 1: got the Lib Dems an enormous amount of the vote,

135
00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,400
Speaker 1: and then they made a coalition with the Tories and

136
00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:25,880
Speaker 1: then immediately went back on it and made it. And

137
00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,160
Speaker 1: that's why my student loans are ridiculous. Even though I

138
00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,920
Speaker 1: dropped out, My student loans are higher than my partners

139
00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,240
Speaker 1: and I dropped out in my second year and she

140
00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,960
Speaker 1: dropped out after doing like six years of the same

141
00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,720
Speaker 1: degree because she had the lower fee, but I am.

142
00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,240
Speaker 1: So then there was Cameron again, but without the lib

143
00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,120
Speaker 1: Dems because everyone's sick of them, a no onimal level

144
00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,320
Speaker 1: of them. Ever, again, the lib Dems are just a

145
00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,080
Speaker 1: funny side story. There are lots of like funny and

146
00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,520
Speaker 1: cringe side stories in British electoral politics, where like it

147
00:07:57,640 --> 00:07:59,840
Speaker 1: doesn't matter that much because they'll never get into power,

148
00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,480
Speaker 1: but like the succession of absolute like clowns who've been

149
00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:06,480
Speaker 1: in charge of this party or that party just is

150
00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,800
Speaker 1: really funny. Like the lib Dems have had a homophobe,

151
00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,240
Speaker 1: but they had Nick Klagg. Then they had a homophobe

152
00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,200
Speaker 1: who said that being gay was a sin, and they

153
00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,960
Speaker 1: had someone called Joe what she called Swanson, Yeah, I

154
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,280
Speaker 1: think I think that's sw Swinson something like this, and

155
00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,960
Speaker 1: she started talking this incredible like neoliberal like if you've

156
00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,280
Speaker 1: ever seen the thick of it, like shed She sounded

157
00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:28,560
Speaker 1: like a character from the thick of it. She was

158
00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,800
Speaker 1: talking about like people having skills, wallets and shit like this.

159
00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,000
Speaker 1: She also, I think killed a squirrel. There was a

160
00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:39,520
Speaker 1: whole thing about that. Boy. Then you know, analogously, there's

161
00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,120
Speaker 1: like the Communist Party of Great Britain, which I hope

162
00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,000
Speaker 1: to get into elated because that is a fascinating story.

163
00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,600
Speaker 1: But anyway, the Tory party is the one that matters

164
00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,560
Speaker 1: the most for now. So we had Cameron, then who

165
00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,640
Speaker 1: do we have Theresa May? Because Cameron bet big on

166
00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,480
Speaker 1: us not voting for Brexit, and then Nigel Farage and

167
00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:58,920
Speaker 1: Boris Johnson et cetera came in and were like save

168
00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,880
Speaker 1: the NHS migrants blah blah blah, and then we voted

169
00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,920
Speaker 1: for Brexit. So then we had Theresa May by default

170
00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:07,880
Speaker 1: because Cameron had left. So this is what I mean that,

171
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,360
Speaker 1: like the Tory potty has this ongoing strategy of just

172
00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,120
Speaker 1: like swapping someone in and then like calling a general

173
00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,599
Speaker 1: election really soon afterwards, and the incumbent's gonna win. So

174
00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,560
Speaker 1: it's like, I don't consider that to be like someone

175
00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,280
Speaker 1: winning an election if they're already in through rap fockery.

176
00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,360
Speaker 1: Although I feel I feel like it's it's still slow.

177
00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,480
Speaker 1: At least there was an election for them, which is

178
00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:33,440
Speaker 1: more of what's happening now. Yeah, it's it's definitely devolved,

179
00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,080
Speaker 1: like it's definitely gotten worse, but like I think we're

180
00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:42,000
Speaker 1: on like the seventh by my account, But like, yeah,

181
00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:46,920
Speaker 1: it was like Cameron, then then May, then Boris Johnson

182
00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,960
Speaker 1: and then sorry, yes bars Johnson and then Liz Trust

183
00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:55,000
Speaker 1: and now it's uh Sunac, because like, can I get

184
00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:59,640
Speaker 1: them the wrong way around anyway? Nonac literally didn't have

185
00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,920
Speaker 1: an opposition in the Tory Party leadership election, like he

186
00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,160
Speaker 1: won by default. It's that That's how dire it's gotten.

187
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,439
Speaker 1: Like they wanted Boris Johnson to come back and try again,

188
00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,280
Speaker 1: and he decided he wasn't going to bother and because

189
00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,319
Speaker 1: of that, there was no one to run against Sunac,

190
00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:21,240
Speaker 1: so he just won by default. Stuff. Yeah and okay,

191
00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,719
Speaker 1: so and Sunac's the fascinating character as well, because like

192
00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,880
Speaker 1: he is incredibly green and I don't mean environmentalists, I

193
00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,199
Speaker 1: mean like he knows fucking nothing and he's currently going

194
00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,280
Speaker 1: through this like there's there was a measurable phenomenon with

195
00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,800
Speaker 1: David Cameron where he was really naive and he went

196
00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:37,640
Speaker 1: through the neoliberal thing of being like I'm going to

197
00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:39,920
Speaker 1: cut the red tape. Oh no, that's not working. I

198
00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:44,000
Speaker 1: need massively authoritarian policies. Oh no, that's not working. Maybe

199
00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,360
Speaker 1: this is a flawed ideology and just like just towards

200
00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,559
Speaker 1: the end of his term he was like, maybe this

201
00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,240
Speaker 1: isn't working, and then they get rid of him. Sunac

202
00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:54,920
Speaker 1: is currently like very firmly in the stage of like

203
00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:58,760
Speaker 1: trying to do as much libertarianism as possible and realizing

204
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,040
Speaker 1: that the state can only do libertarianism if they also

205
00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,920
Speaker 1: as authoritarian as possible. Yeah, and I think, you know,

206
00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:07,719
Speaker 1: I was going to get this in a bit, but

207
00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:09,400
Speaker 1: I think that there's a couple of things have been

208
00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,640
Speaker 1: happening simultaneously. One is that like, okay, so we had

209
00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,920
Speaker 1: there there there there was. There was the incredibly brief

210
00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:20,520
Speaker 1: phenomenon of trusts an omics of like there are the

211
00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:25,599
Speaker 1: British is attempt to like like actually really sort of

212
00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,120
Speaker 1: I don't even know it's like because because British politics

213
00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,920
Speaker 1: is always neoliberal, but like, dude, dude, do do a

214
00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:36,200
Speaker 1: kind of neoliberalism that like no, no nobody has seen

215
00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,000
Speaker 1: since Like I saw people conscribing it as like trying

216
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,959
Speaker 1: to do reagan Omics about the dollar. But I think

217
00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,120
Speaker 1: it's actually stupider than that, because like eight, there are

218
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,000
Speaker 1: there aren't places where you could conceivably pull off reagan

219
00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,719
Speaker 1: Omics about the dollar, right, but like you have to

220
00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,960
Speaker 1: have like kind of an economy, which is the thing

221
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,240
Speaker 1: the UK no longer has after they shot themselves in

222
00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,240
Speaker 1: the foot, Like one thousand times with Bregsit. Yeah, um,

223
00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,400
Speaker 1: let's trust published like a plan for what she was

224
00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,800
Speaker 1: gonna do in terms of economic reforms, and it crashed

225
00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,839
Speaker 1: the pound unbelievably, like just just like people not even

226
00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,360
Speaker 1: the plan, like not even the policies being implemented. People

227
00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:18,960
Speaker 1: sold the plan and the pound like hobbed in value overnight. Yeah,

228
00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,840
Speaker 1: And like I there is stuff that I have seen,

229
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,319
Speaker 1: like like in the wake of trusts anomics and in

230
00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,120
Speaker 1: the wake of like sort of rec stuartrac attempting to

231
00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,480
Speaker 1: piece together like even sort of functional government that like

232
00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,040
Speaker 1: I never thought I would see, Like I I mean,

233
00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,760
Speaker 1: I guess I had seen the IMF saying hold on,

234
00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,480
Speaker 1: you have to stop doing lesterity before, but like I

235
00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,280
Speaker 1: didn't think i'd see that for the about the UK. No,

236
00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:46,800
Speaker 1: it's pretty impressive. Yeah. Like the other thing that I've

237
00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:51,319
Speaker 1: seen that's just genuinely like I can't believe is I've

238
00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,719
Speaker 1: seen mainstream newspaper outlets pretty things about the economy that

239
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,240
Speaker 1: you were just not allowed to say. Like I have

240
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,439
Speaker 1: seen mainstream newspapers admit that economic growth was actually better

241
00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,000
Speaker 1: in the inflation racked in class war torn seventies, and

242
00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,240
Speaker 1: it is now which is like that is like this

243
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,320
Speaker 1: single thing you were not allowed to say at all

244
00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,880
Speaker 1: of economics because if if you, if, if you actually

245
00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,520
Speaker 1: pull out the growth rate chart and point out that

246
00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:16,400
Speaker 1: economic growth was actually better in the seventies and it

247
00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,440
Speaker 1: wasn't any successive decade. I everyone immediately shoots you because

248
00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,480
Speaker 1: that because you know you can prove and what you

249
00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,959
Speaker 1: can prove in one chart that doesn't order in the

250
00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,120
Speaker 1: media class in the UK. And you point out that,

251
00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,679
Speaker 1: like the seventies was by any metric better than now,

252
00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,040
Speaker 1: you are no longer invited to the eyes wide shot

253
00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,200
Speaker 1: potties where you can like suck and fuck Boss Johnson,

254
00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,040
Speaker 1: and that is like the highest privilege in British society.

255
00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:40,960
Speaker 1: So you obviously want that. Yeah you can, you can,

256
00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:42,760
Speaker 1: you can, you can no longer fuck the pig. I

257
00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,959
Speaker 1: think things of this nature because bed Room quickly was

258
00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,640
Speaker 1: interviewed and he it was like front page kiss Tama

259
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,120
Speaker 1: saying I would kiss a Tori, and I just shed it,

260
00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,280
Speaker 1: being like, look, we already know David Cameron fucked a pig.

261
00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,559
Speaker 1: Yeah god Sama saying he would kiss the Tory is

262
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:06,000
Speaker 1: just yeah, that's just a cherry on top. Yeah, So okay,

263
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,280
Speaker 1: I want to ask a little bit about what is

264
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,160
Speaker 1: going on in the in the in the British economy,

265
00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,400
Speaker 1: because I have spent some time attempting to figure out

266
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,160
Speaker 1: what the fuck even is the British economy and as

267
00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:20,480
Speaker 1: as as best I've been able to determine, it produces, okay,

268
00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,840
Speaker 1: produces financial quote unquote financial services, which seems to be

269
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,360
Speaker 1: the UK sort of polite euphanism for doing money laundering

270
00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,560
Speaker 1: for like both the regular bourdoisie and for this enormous

271
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,480
Speaker 1: class of like kleptocrats and petrol oligarchs who like get

272
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,840
Speaker 1: their money by extracting it directly from the state. Yeah. Um,

273
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,000
Speaker 1: it seems like that. It seems like you have that layer,

274
00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,600
Speaker 1: you're the layer below them, who are just like somehow

275
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,400
Speaker 1: more landlords per capita than exists in like any other

276
00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:48,040
Speaker 1: place that has ever existed. And then below that there's

277
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:52,160
Speaker 1: this quote unquote service economy thing. Yeah. I think you're

278
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,640
Speaker 1: getting it. I think you're pretty much getting it. I think, okay,

279
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,520
Speaker 1: there are two sides to British politics. This this economic

280
00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,680
Speaker 1: one that you're pointing out, which is, like, let me

281
00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,480
Speaker 1: put a pin in the economics right that the economy

282
00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:07,200
Speaker 1: of the UK is unbelievable and if we'll get to

283
00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:08,840
Speaker 1: it in a second. And then there's the like the

284
00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:13,960
Speaker 1: the electoral politics that they try to like that is

285
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:16,680
Speaker 1: just a fast to try to like keep people from

286
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,760
Speaker 1: ever looking too closely at the economics, like ever looking

287
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,280
Speaker 1: with a sensible lens of the economics. The electoral politics

288
00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:27,600
Speaker 1: is just like eternal war on a set of marginalized communities,

289
00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:33,400
Speaker 1: young people, immigrants, refugees and asylum seekers, sex workers, trans people,

290
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:39,840
Speaker 1: black and minority ethic Britain's the GT community travelers enormously

291
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,240
Speaker 1: Like that was something that like a lot of people

292
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,960
Speaker 1: thought that like New Labor under Blair was like so

293
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,520
Speaker 1: progressive and was like ending races. It was a big

294
00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:51,680
Speaker 1: like Obama adjacent moment for us and like, but they

295
00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,920
Speaker 1: were horribly racist to travelers and that's escalated in recent

296
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,560
Speaker 1: years to like if people are familiar with the police

297
00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:01,680
Speaker 1: Crimes Sentencing in Courts bill, like that got somewhat defanged,

298
00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:03,880
Speaker 1: but like one of the worst parts of the bill

299
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,040
Speaker 1: still got through was just like ending the right to Rome,

300
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,600
Speaker 1: which is effectively just a genocide against travelers. YEA. When

301
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,440
Speaker 1: I mentioned sex workers, like a lot of British sex

302
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,320
Speaker 1: workers are pushing for any kind of legal reform that

303
00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,760
Speaker 1: would be better. But like our most progressive politician like

304
00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,640
Speaker 1: Jeremy Corbyn literally like still supports the Nordic model like

305
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:29,560
Speaker 1: it's um, it's a nightmare. Um. Socially, the political side

306
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,480
Speaker 1: of that, the social side of the politics in the

307
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,800
Speaker 1: UK is just war on as I say, like dividing

308
00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:40,040
Speaker 1: up the entire population into marginalized groups forever eternally, like

309
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,080
Speaker 1: saving this idea of like the blue collar working class

310
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,520
Speaker 1: white man who also earns like eighty thousand pounds a year,

311
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,000
Speaker 1: and and that's the that's the ideal voter, even though

312
00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,320
Speaker 1: that's no one. Um. And then there's the economics. Okay,

313
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,120
Speaker 1: so the and all of that is a smoke screen

314
00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:01,520
Speaker 1: for the economics. So like you said, um, lowest level,

315
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,440
Speaker 1: there's the service economy, because we, like the rest of

316
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,440
Speaker 1: the Imperial Corps, exported all our industrial stuff to the

317
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:13,320
Speaker 1: imperial periphery. When our industrial sectors got unionized, we are

318
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,840
Speaker 1: now a service economy. So practically all jobs in the

319
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,440
Speaker 1: UK are poor people providing some kind of service for

320
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,560
Speaker 1: rich people. Um. Then like you say, there's the landlords

321
00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:28,600
Speaker 1: above that we have we have a wild time with landlords,

322
00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,600
Speaker 1: and that there is there is a plus sight to that,

323
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,800
Speaker 1: which is that that like our tenants unions are fantastic,

324
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,720
Speaker 1: Like we have we have such a boom in tenants unions.

325
00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,200
Speaker 1: I've been interviewing activists and organizers for a couple of

326
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,959
Speaker 1: years now, and in the US, you guys are doing

327
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,520
Speaker 1: okay with tenants unions. You've got a bigger challenge because

328
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,320
Speaker 1: pop shop with guns to evict people. So that is like,

329
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,439
Speaker 1: that is a crazy time. But like we have such bigger,

330
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,520
Speaker 1: stronger tenants unions and like I think the possibility of

331
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:57,840
Speaker 1: something like a full scale rent strike happening in the

332
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:02,920
Speaker 1: UK is actually pretty like pretty feasible. Um, the US

333
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,159
Speaker 1: just don't like get that shit. Like I I had

334
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,200
Speaker 1: when back back, back, back back when, back when I

335
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,720
Speaker 1: was an incredibly naive youth. Most in the DSA we

336
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,080
Speaker 1: had an entire like massive battle in my chapter about

337
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,920
Speaker 1: whether about whether we should do tennis organizing, and I

338
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:18,680
Speaker 1: was on the side of, well, yeah, obviously we should,

339
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,200
Speaker 1: we should do. I'm like I had one of the

340
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:25,160
Speaker 1: fucking Chicago DSA leadership people like in in this meeting

341
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,080
Speaker 1: said to my face and I quote, how how does

342
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:33,120
Speaker 1: building tennis unions build working class power. What what these

343
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,720
Speaker 1: people are? Clowns absolute clowns. I just like every every

344
00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,040
Speaker 1: every time they walk down the street, their giant noses

345
00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:44,000
Speaker 1: go hog like a clown. I'm not I'm not gonna

346
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,200
Speaker 1: be in. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna engage in

347
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,720
Speaker 1: anti clowns flan here. I I do not. I think

348
00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:51,920
Speaker 1: it's very unfair on clowns to get fathom to the DS.

349
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:56,760
Speaker 1: That's true. That's um I got. That's soling Paradise where

350
00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,280
Speaker 1: she says like, I don't want to be the head

351
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:00,960
Speaker 1: of the local D say chapter, I just want to

352
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,520
Speaker 1: be on the Digimon the movie soundtrack. I'm like, fuck yes,

353
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:11,480
Speaker 1: okay speak speaking of the Digimon the Movie soundtrack, very nice,

354
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,320
Speaker 1: very nice. Maybe maybe maybe maybe maybe we'll get sponsored

355
00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,440
Speaker 1: by by by Digimon the movie. That was Maybe that

356
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,880
Speaker 1: hasn't add for Digimon the movie. Yeah, yeah, I hope

357
00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 1: it's it's gonna be fucking gold again or like we're

358
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,240
Speaker 1: please okay, just like once again, other we have talked

359
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,240
Speaker 1: about this on multiple shows. Now please stop dmning other

360
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,720
Speaker 1: Sophie about about about the stupid gold ads. We know

361
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:42,560
Speaker 1: they're there. Which way, Yeah, dope, buy gold. Yeah, and

362
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:44,840
Speaker 1: we're back. I hope you would. I hope, I hope

363
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,560
Speaker 1: you now went to digimond Uh. They got they they

364
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,080
Speaker 1: got little monsters to turn into things with giant guns

365
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,320
Speaker 1: bombed with digimon. The movie ADS has reshaped your brain

366
00:19:55,400 --> 00:20:01,320
Speaker 1: to the high consciousness digimon consciousness. Um, let's talk about

367
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,760
Speaker 1: financial services. You mentioned this very briefly, but this is

368
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:10,840
Speaker 1: actually so like, Okay, most people in the UK working

369
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,920
Speaker 1: in like fucking Uber or like deliveru or some other

370
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:22,440
Speaker 1: nightmarish service sector job. Then there's the petty bourgeois who

371
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,320
Speaker 1: are so overwhelmingly landlords now and then and then there

372
00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:28,080
Speaker 1: are mega landlords. We have a ton of like mega

373
00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,080
Speaker 1: landlords who. Something really insidious about that, by the way,

374
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,240
Speaker 1: is that we have a lot of like housing associations

375
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:34,840
Speaker 1: that have claimed to be like for the good of

376
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,400
Speaker 1: the tenant and claimed to be like socially progressive trying

377
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,960
Speaker 1: to help people out, and they actually own like thousands

378
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,520
Speaker 1: of properties, and like there are people with like through

379
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,600
Speaker 1: the Tenants Union. My partner knows someone who it was

380
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,640
Speaker 1: like raining in her flat because the leaks were so bad.

381
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,640
Speaker 1: It was like rain indoors and she had like black

382
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:54,920
Speaker 1: mold and then off her lights are working and that

383
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,800
Speaker 1: was like that was a housing association. They are some

384
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,000
Speaker 1: of the worst landlords. And then above them, the UK

385
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 1: is running one of the biggest money laundering operations in

386
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 1: the world, maybe the biggest I think it's don't I

387
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 1: don't know, like maybe maybe I don't. I don't even

388
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,760
Speaker 1: I don't even think like the Cayman Islands or like

389
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,240
Speaker 1: or the Bahamas have like that kind of like or

390
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,280
Speaker 1: Panama has that kind of through points. No, we're really

391
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,879
Speaker 1: familiar with like Switzerland and like you say, Panama and

392
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 1: the Cayman Islands, and some people are somewhat familiar with

393
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 1: island as being like tax havens. Yeah, but like none

394
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 1: of these actually compare to Britain because Britain like sport

395
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,280
Speaker 1: all of these relationships with the entire world because it

396
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,480
Speaker 1: invaded them and now it has those like the British

397
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,720
Speaker 1: Empire ended in name and legal function, but did not

398
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 1: end in terms of financial services. Like that is our

399
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 1: that is our grip on power is like that we yeah,

400
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 1: we just launder a bunch of rich people's money. Um.

401
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,680
Speaker 1: There's a great documentary called The Spider's Web which talks

402
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,159
Speaker 1: about this and like the head of her majesty is oh,

403
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,359
Speaker 1: I guess it's his majesty now the king just taking

404
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,919
Speaker 1: this opportunity to say fuck the king. Um HMRC. Anyway,

405
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 1: the head of HMRC like literally just works for the

406
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 1: money launderers, like the people who are just trying to

407
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 1: bring through like billions of dollars to launder. Um. Yeah.

408
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 1: Like when I say about like the rest of our

409
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,719
Speaker 1: politics being a smokescreen, it's because like this is everything

410
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 1: for the British ruling class, Like it's all about them

411
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 1: trying to lawn the money. And like I think that

412
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 1: like the the recent rise in like far right populism

413
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: or attempt at that in the UK, which by the way,

414
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 1: I don't think it's going as well as they wish

415
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 1: it was anymore. But like well because they did, because

416
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 1: they did briggs In it turns out Bridge it was

417
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 1: really bad idea. Yeah, Like I remember there was something

418
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:52,639
Speaker 1: for a while a while ago, I was in some

419
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,879
Speaker 1: forum thread where they were just put posting like Trump

420
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,119
Speaker 1: supporters realized they're going to die because of Trump. Um.

421
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 1: It's a very similar phenomenon in the UK. Like you,

422
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 1: there's a lot of and I don't really delight in

423
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 1: it because it's just it's just like looking a lot

424
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,479
Speaker 1: of working class, working class people suffering. Um. But there

425
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 1: is a very like, very obvious and noticeable trend of

426
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 1: like people who voted for Brexit realizing that it's completely

427
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 1: fucked everything about their life. Um. But when there was

428
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 1: this attempt at like raising far right um like false

429
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 1: class consciousness in a very Trumpian way, Um, that was

430
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 1: all like a very big attempt at the smoke screen

431
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 1: because like if there's have you ever seen Johnny English,

432
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: there's this fucking Rowan Atkinson film where he like is

433
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 1: a he winds up being like a spy. And the

434
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 1: villain in that film is French of course, because you

435
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 1: know the French so evil compared to Britain, I guess

436
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: and so on. Um, and uh, that guy who's played

437
00:23:55,000 --> 00:24:00,080
Speaker 1: by John Malkovich wants to get the British throne and

438
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: then sell Britain to private investors to turn the entire

439
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:09,120
Speaker 1: island into a prison. And it created modern Britain. Yeah,

440
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,680
Speaker 1: it's just outlining modern British politics. Yeah. So so like

441
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: in terms of social policy, like it would suit the

442
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 1: ruling class of Britain very very nicely. If Britain was

443
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,879
Speaker 1: just one big jail because like they are only inconvenience

444
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 1: by having to cater to any kind of population. Like

445
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: if the British population just all died, the Tories would

446
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 1: be having such a good time, Like they would fucking

447
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: love it if there was absolutely no one to govern

448
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: over and Britain could just like on paper, have a

449
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 1: population of sixty million and then they could use that

450
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: for the money laundering. Yeah, but actually you go here

451
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 1: and it's just a complete like ghost island, like that

452
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 1: everyone is gone. Yeah, I mean it is that. It's

453
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,959
Speaker 1: just it is just for money laundering. Like I think

454
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: the London Stock Exchange just the oldest stock exchange. I think,

455
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but like obviously it's had a long

456
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 1: time to develop and like it's yeah, the the U.

457
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 1: There is more fiscal capital or marks would have called

458
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: fictitious capital in the world now than there is like

459
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 1: real capital or financial capital. Um. And yeah, a huge

460
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,719
Speaker 1: amount of it goes through the London Stock Exchange um

461
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: and through like yeah, through through the services of of

462
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 1: HMAC and through like the various schemes that it's really funny.

463
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,400
Speaker 1: I had to um, I had to this. I don't

464
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: think this is like as insidious sounds. But I was

465
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: filling up my tax return recently and there was a

466
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: there was a question that MS like just straight basically

467
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: asked like have you participated in one or more tax

468
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 1: avoidance schemes? And I was like, this is a normal country.

469
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 1: This is a this is a really normal, normal country,

470
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 1: Like they just asked you. And like when when my

471
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 1: partner I saw this, because she was filling out hers,

472
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: she was like, is this just a trick question to

473
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: get you to like dob yourself into the cops. And

474
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: I was like, no, No, this is a this is

475
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: a normal question in case you are a very very

476
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 1: rich person who has engaged in a tax away and

477
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: you want to just report that and then the hust

478
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 1: will be like, cool, good job avoiding paying taxes. You

479
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: know when I always sort of like running through my

480
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: research for this, I remember to David Graver quote about

481
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 1: the British economy where he said something to the effect

482
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: of the United kingdoms chief product is the facility of

483
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: its working class, which is what allows oligarchs to just

484
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 1: like put their money there because they know that they're

485
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 1: gonna have a butler or no one's ever going to

486
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 1: steal it. Yeah. Yeah, but you know, the sort of

487
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: other side of of the graver in the UK arc is,

488
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 1: you know, towards the end of his life, like he

489
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: starts writing a lot about the revolt of the carrying

490
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: classes and about this sort of like he was talking

491
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 1: about he was talking about stuff that was happening like

492
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: Chosen eighteen nineteen. Yeah, a lot about like but the

493
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: shot actually too, because there's a lot of uh and

494
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: he was directly involved in some organizing and stuff the IMF.

495
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but you know it was interesting to me

496
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: about this is like, oh, I don't want to let

497
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: it go by without saying the IMF must be destroyed

498
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 1: at all costs. Oh, yes, policy I have about the

499
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: like yeah, the actually demonic, real demons exist and they

500
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: called the International Monetary Fund. Yeah. I talked about this

501
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: in my Neoliberalism episode. And this is another sort of

502
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,439
Speaker 1: grape barism thing, right, is the sort of being at

503
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 1: tuned to the fact that all of this sort of

504
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 1: like red tape cutting bullshit is actually just a smoke

505
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 1: screen for an incredibly sort of unbelievably violent or impressive

506
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: bureaucracy and the sort of the global wing of the

507
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: violent or impressive bureaucracy is the IMF. Yeah, and well

508
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 1: it's a really weird what I was saying before about

509
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: like Cameron realizing that neoliberalism doesn't work towards the end

510
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: of the time that he was in office, Like what

511
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: I'm referring to is that he wrote a letter to

512
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 1: his constituency, to his local council that he's supposed to represent,

513
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 1: and he said that like they'd been complaining that they

514
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: didn't have the money to do the things they needed

515
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 1: to do, and he was like, well, you should just

516
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: cut out the red tape, Like you should just clear

517
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: out the back room bureaucracy. That's the thing that's costing

518
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 1: you all the money. And I think with sometimes to

519
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: reflect on this, where I think he gets that idea

520
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: from is that he's seen how well it works for

521
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: the for the ruling class. He's like, the more red

522
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 1: tape we cut, the more we get rid of regulations,

523
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 1: the more money we make. And so he's like, that

524
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 1: is simple. Then minus red tape equals more money. And

525
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: they replied to him like, what the fuck are you

526
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: talking about. There is no back room bureaucracy. You cut

527
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: our budget with austerity policies. That's why there's no money.

528
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: And he was like, oh fuck, Like yeah, well, and

529
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 1: I you know this, this this seems to have like

530
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 1: escalated to levels the UK that are like sort of

531
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: genuinely catastrophic. I mean, you know, one thing I've sort

532
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: of been quietly going on is like the sort of

533
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: quiet privatization of the NHS. Yeah, which is yeah, the

534
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: aliens is the National Health Service or is trans people

535
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: call it a no healthcare service. I haven't had that

536
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: one before. That's very good. Yeah, but you know, okay,

537
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: but I'm currently a good demonstration of that. Actually, I

538
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: am currently trying to get onto the pilot scheme trans Plus,

539
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: which basically gets you to the end of the waiting list.

540
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: And if they if the pilot scheme goes well, hopefully

541
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: we'll we'll be getting rid of the hopefully, like this

542
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: is the good alternative, right And to get onto it,

543
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: I need to get my referral, which my GP told

544
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: me they did but didn't do. So to do that,

545
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: I need to get my current QP to write the

546
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: referral to the GIC and include a note that says

547
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 1: this was meant to be done in August twenty twenty

548
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: and to do that. I called up the GP office

549
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: the other day and they said I was on the

550
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: phone with the GP and I said, go to the

551
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: GICs web site, click on if the section that says

552
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: you know you're a GP and you're looking to refer

553
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: a patient. And she was like, oh, I can't do

554
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: that because of our computer systems. So what I'm going

555
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: to need you to do is go to the website

556
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: yourself and click on the thing that says you're a

557
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 1: GP even though you're not, and download that form and

558
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 1: then email it to our office and then call the

559
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: office and then get them to make the referral. This

560
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: is the good alternative. This is the good alternative compared

561
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: to just waiting for like fifteen years and then killing myself.

562
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: This is the good option for healthcare on for trans

563
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: people in the UK right now. Yeah, it's a yeah

564
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: like as as as as as as like shitty as

565
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: American trans health care is a lot of the time,

566
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: it is somehow well okay, unless you're in a place

567
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: that has made it illegal now, which is fun. It's

568
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: it's a lot less fucked than the UK's I really

569
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: thought we were. We were like outdoing the GOP states.

570
00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: Like for for just a second there we were like

571
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: inching ahead and how much our country hates trans people,

572
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: and then like all these bands came out that were

573
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: just like taking trans kids away from their parents or whatever. Yeah,

574
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, they clearly won. Yeah, but now anyway,

575
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 1: we'll see. We'll see whether you know, whether like the

576
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: Rowling Bill comes in in twenty twenty four or something

577
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: that like, yeah, it's just like execute transgenders on site.

578
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: What would not surprise me at all? The Oh god,

579
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: it's fun being just the scapegoat for everything it's ever

580
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: gone wrong. Ever. Hi, this is Mia in post. This

581
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,239
Speaker 1: episode was recorded just days before Briennaji, is sixteen year

582
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: old trans girl, was stabbed to death in a town

583
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: near Liverpool. Um, we haven't talked about it really on

584
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: the show over the last few weeks because very little

585
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: of what I and what I think the rest of

586
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: the crew have had to say about Brienna GI's murder

587
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: between sort of the racking sobs that you get another

588
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: transperson taking from us is even remotely publishable. What I

589
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: can say is that some of the wealthiest and most

590
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 1: powerful people the institutions in the world are trying to

591
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 1: exterminate us and the BBC, the New York Times, JK.

592
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: Rowling in every major British political party, and the American

593
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: ones to have blot in their fucking hands and should

594
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: be treated accordingly. And on that pleak note. Yeah, we

595
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: can go back to the rest of the episode. Yeah,

596
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: it is wild being a country that like supposedly like

597
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: what the thing we probably have the to be the

598
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: proudest of in our entire history is creating a system

599
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: for socialized medicine where people have free, a point of

600
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: use healthcare. And since it was created, the ruling class

601
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: have tried as hard as possible to destroy it, and

602
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: they're finally succeeding. I'm actually having friends are telling me

603
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: recently that they're going to like hospitals, and the hospitals

604
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: are telling them that they know they're privatized, and they

605
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 1: like they can't they'll have to charge them because they're

606
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: not like contracted to and chests walk anymore. So that's

607
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: you know, that that's succeeding at that I we've probably

608
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: wandered away from the point of what we're trying to say. I. Yeah,

609
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: I have resentful feelings to do with healthcare in the UK.

610
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,719
Speaker 1: I'm currently playing with my comfort knife. Yeah, I mean,

611
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: I think I I I think this is sort of

612
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: circling around to the thing I wanted to talk about next,

613
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: which is that, like, you know, on the one hand,

614
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: we have this sort of like just just the sort

615
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 1: of monumental collapse of anything that could like conceivably make

616
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: the UK a society. But on the other hand, people

617
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: whether like we live in a society, and I'm like,

618
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: if you're in the UK sharing this, you are wrong. Yeah,

619
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: you live in an economy. Yeah, it's live in an economy.

620
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: It's it's pretty blue. It would be fucking great to

621
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: live in a society I wish, But you know, on

622
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: the other hand, Dave Dave David Graver's final final production

623
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: has like now come true, which is that we are

624
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: now actually like the UK is now sort of starting

625
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 1: to see the full scale revolt of the carrying classes. Yes,

626
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: and that has come in the form of walk. I

627
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: I have no idea what this episode is going to

628
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: come out. Sorry, everything's chaos right now, but as of

629
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:23,839
Speaker 1: time of recording, I guess tomorrow that something like half

630
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: a million people are going on strike and lo one

631
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 1: and behold who was going on People went on strike

632
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: last week? Oh? Was it last week? Yeah? Yeah, am

633
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 1: I have I Okay, I'm a dumbass, isn't well? Aren't

634
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 1: there more tomorrow when the episode comes out. On the

635
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: first of February, over half a million people went on

636
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: strike and there massive demonstrations and matches across the country.

637
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: It's the biggest strike and biggest matches that we've seen

638
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 1: in like over a decade um. We haven't seen much

639
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: as this size since protests against the Iraq War. Yeah. Yeah,

640
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 1: and well okay, so in Chalah there'll be more effective

641
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 1: than the rock war protest. But yeah, I mean, I

642
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 1: think it's interesting if you look at the people who

643
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 1: are who are striking, it is it is people who

644
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: do care labor. It's teachers, who's nurses, it's ambulance drivers,

645
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: people in civil sts like train and bus drivers who

646
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 1: are like still on strike, and various capacities. A point

647
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: to pull you up on there, but it agrees with

648
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 1: your point even more in terms of the rebellion of

649
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 1: the caring classes. The current drive of the strikes from

650
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 1: the RMT that's rail, maritime and transport workers pick up

651
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: the RMT. My boys are incredible, Nick Lynch, shout out,

652
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 1: love you to pieces. The current strikes are actually driven

653
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 1: by the janitorial staff, who are like some of the

654
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,919
Speaker 1: worst treated and worst paid among all of the train

655
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: and transport staff like bus drivers and train drivers and

656
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: someone have joined in on it. And that, as you're saying,

657
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 1: is like is still part of the like rebellion of

658
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 1: the caring classes. But it's even more so because it's

659
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: literally like the cleaners who were like, yeah, this is fucked,

660
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: we need better wages. Yeah, And there's been one aye,

661
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 1: And I think like we're like postal workers are also

662
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 1: on strike, this other I'm pretty I'm pretty sure other

663
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: people are also on strike. Two that I'm leaving out here. Uh,

664
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 1: let's see. So ambulance strivers, civil servants, teaches, nus is

665
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 1: uh training workers, Yeah, like the university that's true. Yeah,

666
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: university workers there are that there are, but I do

667
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 1: not care about this. I have to assolid arity for them.

668
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 1: Bought an agents on strike. Strike baby, never come back

669
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 1: to work. You striking. We are starting the ambolition of

670
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: work with you. Congratulations you are now you have now

671
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 1: finally become the vanguard of the working class, it's which

672
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 1: which it's what is what you fucking cops have always

673
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,439
Speaker 1: wanted you get to do it now. Yeah, well cops

674
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: is an interesting thing as well, because like h on

675
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: Red Planet every Sunday apm two eleven pm UK time,

676
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: check it out. We um we have a running prediction

677
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,399
Speaker 1: to do with the with the police that like, as

678
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:07,280
Speaker 1: their job, as class warfare becomes more naked, the police's

679
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: job is more and more obviously just what it's always been,

680
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: to put down the working class. But as your job

681
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 1: just becomes like smashing like bottled water stands that people

682
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: put up in a heat way to help homeless people,

683
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 1: and like trying to evict people and trying to like

684
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: stop people who are striking for better pay. And also

685
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 1: everyone around you constantly calls you a pig and like

686
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 1: degrades you and is like are you enjoying what you're doing?

687
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: Do you have a good life? Are you liking this job?

688
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 1: We'll see like lots of police quitting. And actually this

689
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,800
Speaker 1: month the Telegraph, who can't really be trusted, but this

690
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,919
Speaker 1: does into a larger pattern. The Telegraph reported that more

691
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: cops had quit than had been recruited in the last

692
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: month and that's what an overall pattern that has been

693
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 1: going on for a while. To be fair of that

694
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 1: that I don't know. In the US, every single newspaper

695
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: says that every weakness never true. So yes, I don't

696
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 1: know actual figures. Like it does look like the I mean,

697
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: cops quitting in the UK has been on the rise

698
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: since like like early last year, um and enormously as well.

699
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: And you can tell because like the Met has been

700
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 1: putting out loads of recruitment ads, which like is really

701
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: second No, I a little sorry about this. Actually they

702
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: have this ad in wait is it nearly time for ads?

703
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: Because I could add pivot. Yeah, I was in I

704
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: was so. I was in peck Complex Cinema, which is

705
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:36,399
Speaker 1: Peckham Is is like a cheap community cinema. Um, it's

706
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: like uh yeah, it's it's they deliberately keep it cheap

707
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: so that people can enjoy it and it's an events

708
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 1: space and whatever, and we were about to watch a movie.

709
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,479
Speaker 1: I forget what now, but like there was this ad

710
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 1: for the for joining the Met police that was like

711
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: this black guy talking about how he was really worried

712
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: about his sister joining the police because she's a black

713
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,399
Speaker 1: woman and she's a Muslim, and he was worried she's

714
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 1: gonna face all this discrimination, but actually she's having a

715
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: great time and everyone loves her, so it was totally

716
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: okay the whole time. And now I have this personal policy,

717
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 1: which is if there is an ad for crypto, an

718
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 1: ad for joining the Met, the Army, whatever, and no

719
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 1: one else, and if no one is yelling at the

720
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: screen because they are being subjected to fascist propaganda, that

721
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 1: then then it's going to be me who's yelling. So

722
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: I just started yelling because like because like two weeks

723
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 1: earlier when I was watching this ad, like Chris Carver

724
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,240
Speaker 1: had been had been shot dead by Met police officers

725
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 1: in South London, a black man, right, and they have

726
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 1: a black man here telling us that actually the Met's

727
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 1: really cool and doesn't do any racism. And I was

728
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,399
Speaker 1: just yelling and yelling about it. And I was yelling

729
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 1: about like fucking if people aren't familiar with the case

730
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: of like Sarah Everard who was kidnapped and assaulted and

731
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: murdered by Wayne Cousins and Met police officer, like you know,

732
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: I'm just I was just going off about all this

733
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: stuff because I'm just like, I like I was just

734
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 1: responding directly to the ad like, how are they running

735
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 1: this shit as if we don't know all of this

736
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 1: and just lift listing off everything that came into mind,

737
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 1: because again it's my fault, it's my personal policy. I'm

738
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: not going to get any trouble for it. And someone

739
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: should be yelling when you're subjected to propaganda. Yeah. Anyway,

740
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 1: speaking of propaganda, here's an act joining the Washington State

741
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:24,240
Speaker 1: Highway Patrol. And we're back from your fascist propaganda session.

742
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 1: I hope you didn't enjoy it. I hope you yelled

743
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,919
Speaker 1: the whole time. Yeah, And I guess I I guess

744
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 1: the thing that is genuinely sort of different between the

745
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 1: American and British polices that the British police like the

746
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,320
Speaker 1: American police is like every single American city is like

747
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: at least well, okay, so it's they're they're technically only

748
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 1: about forty percent police budget by volume, but that that

749
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 1: that doesn't county about by googling forty percent police, well

750
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: you will you will see a variety of things here,

751
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 1: but like you know, tech, technically it's it's it's it's

752
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,320
Speaker 1: technically only about forty percent of the city's budget. Byvolume,

753
00:40:58,320 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: but that's because that doesn't count the amount of money

754
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,479
Speaker 1: police just steal. But in the UK they actually kind

755
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: of like they were kind of stupid and they seem

756
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: to actually have kind of done neoliberalism to the cops,

757
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 1: which is very funny because it means that you get

758
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: Jeremy Corbyn like running on hiring more cops and it's

759
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 1: like yeah, sir, Like what no, it's yeah. Like it's

760
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: like like you've been you've been protesting like apotheide and

761
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 1: illegal wars and all of this stuff, like thirty five

762
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 1: years and you're like, we should have more cops. What

763
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: the fuck are you talking about? Man? I remember what

764
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: I was. I was watching people who like used to

765
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 1: be like autonomist in like fucking twenty eleven being like, no,

766
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 1: we need more cops. Like they were literally beating you up.

767
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 1: What the fuck is Oh my god that guy who

768
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: fractured my skull. I need more of that. Yeah, No,

769
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: it's pretty fun. There is like an enormous amount of

770
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: British brain going on where even I was like, most

771
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 1: progressive politicians will support support ship like that, and like

772
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,879
Speaker 1: I said earlier, like the nautic model, right, like we yeah,

773
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 1: there are there are limits to the British imagination? Um? Yeah,

774
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: because we've been doing this shit a long time, we've

775
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: really perfected the brain ones. Yeah, I mean I have okay,

776
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 1: so my my my, my, my my my. Least progressive

777
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,439
Speaker 1: theory is that there there's there, there's something. There's something

778
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 1: called large population island brain, which affects, it affects. The

779
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: UK and Japan are the two sort of models of

780
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: this where you like being being on an island and

781
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 1: then also running an empire drives you, makes you like

782
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 1: absolutely psychotic in like very very specific ways that are

783
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: like both the same. It's like you you have a

784
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: massive nonce culture, like the way you imperially similar parable

785
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 1: public nonsense is thriving recently. Gary Glitter recently got out

786
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 1: of president and then immediately went on as the far

787
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,320
Speaker 1: right TV network gb News and said that woke cancel,

788
00:42:52,520 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: woke cancel culture is the biggest problem. Yeah, like it's it's, it's, it's.

789
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: It is a very grim state of affairs. Yeah, is

790
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: is what I will say about both the UK and Japan,

791
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: although I guess to be fair, to be fair to Japan,

792
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: they did just assassinate their ex prime minister and probably

793
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: the most like history, like probably the most successful historical

794
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 1: assassination not done by the CIA and like a hundred

795
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: years or something like really incredible work on the part

796
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: of the man with the electric blunderbuss. The UK, however,

797
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 1: not not there yet. I mean, where's that? You know,

798
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: where's our where's our homemade blunderbusses? Come on, come on,

799
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 1: got step it up, guy. This is not full for

800
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 1: leftist terrorism. I am not police. Please ignore what I

801
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: just said. I will say this thing about the British too,

802
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: Like one of the sort of British psychosis that I

803
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 1: think about a lot is like the specter of knife crime,

804
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:51,399
Speaker 1: because it's like, okay, one hands, Like on the one hand,

805
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 1: like yeah, like okay, so like people get stabbed and

806
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 1: it sucks. On the other hand, like like having having

807
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: having grown up in the US in a country where

808
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 1: like all of our can gardeners are basically being trained

809
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 1: to like storm met like do you like human wave

810
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,439
Speaker 1: attacks and mashooters? Just like how how are you guys?

811
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: Like how are you guys? Like like how is this

812
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 1: the thing that you guys are like like you have

813
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 1: police brain about is knife crime? Like I think no,

814
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: I think that like the knife crime thing is a

815
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 1: very American perspective on British politics, Like we don't actually

816
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: talk about it that much. Oh thank god. Okay, it's

817
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 1: really like an American conservative talking point that like if

818
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: you get rid of the guns, they'll just stab each other.

819
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 1: So look at the UK, they don't have guns and

820
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 1: they're just stabbing each other. Um, Like some conservatives still

821
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 1: care about knife crime here. That was a big wave

822
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 1: of caring about it when again it was like a

823
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 1: few years labor were like doing their races, like the

824
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 1: the the hush hush racist policies to try and like

825
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 1: brutalize the working class, especially in black neighborhoods. Um. But

826
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 1: like no, I mean, the cop brain is like in everything.

827
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: It's just it's not it's not like it's every I

828
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,439
Speaker 1: think British brain is just an evolved form of cop brain.

829
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: It's like when cop brain affects everything in life, then

830
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 1: you then you are British. Yeah, and I get I guess.

831
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:06,919
Speaker 1: I guess. Also it's like it's you have caught brand

832
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 1: and an also landlord brand at the same time. It's

833
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:14,720
Speaker 1: just like a truly sort of dastardly come but housing.

834
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:20,359
Speaker 1: That's true, I say it was my fucking well, I guess,

835
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: I guess, Okay, I I think I have I am no,

836
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: that's not true. I haven't gotten it yet, but I

837
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 1: am vast approaching that the two weeks since my apartment

838
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: was last flooded by sewage mark and I'm very excited

839
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 1: about this. Love love love love love love, landlords love renting.

840
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 1: It's we hear love landlords falling on me. Hey, at

841
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: least not up god, Oh oh boy, that's a new

842
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: Oh fun. Okay, this is this has been, This has

843
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 1: been the the MEA's apartment is falling apart update. Well,

844
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:01,720
Speaker 1: should we talk more about the rebellion of the caring classes?

845
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: Because I think that's a really I think that's a

846
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: really pointed and worthwhile grape of prediction. I'm a big grapehead.

847
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: I have a friend who I just get onto discord

848
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 1: chat with and we as we put it grape out. Um.

849
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 1: I like to say, I'm getting the grape from beyond

850
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 1: the Grave of twenty four seven. But the but the

851
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 1: rebellion of the caring classes is a really poignant thing

852
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 1: to talk about because neoliberalism does not care about reproductive

853
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: labor in the slightest and where like where older forms

854
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:40,320
Speaker 1: of capitalism had had that covered because women were basically

855
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 1: fucking slaves. Um. They now the now like reproductive labor

856
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: has to be done by professionals because everything must be marketized,

857
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: and of course, being the most essential labor, it's the

858
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 1: gonna be the one with the shittiest working conditions and

859
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 1: the lowest pay. That's that's neoliberalism for you. If if

860
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: every if it must happen, it must be dogshit um.

861
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: And so like this is where we see the rebellion

862
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 1: of the carrying classes now, especially with the with the

863
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 1: set of the service sector economy, so like within the

864
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 1: imperial core, everyone's being put into some kind of care

865
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: job essentially, and they're treated like shit. And now they're

866
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: starting to actually form unions and fight back, which is

867
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 1: really fucking cool. Yeah. I want to briefly interject here

868
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: with a thing everyone gets wrong about Margaret Thatcher, which

869
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 1: is that every every everyone in their mom will will

870
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 1: say that fucking quote about there is no society, there's

871
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,879
Speaker 1: only the individual. Except they never they never leave out

872
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: the next part of that sentence, which they always leave

873
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 1: out the part of it that they always leave out

874
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: at the end is that the actual line goes. And

875
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: it's slightly weird because it was it was it was

876
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 1: in response to a question. But basically the line is

877
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 1: there's no such thing as society. There are only individuals

878
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,439
Speaker 1: and the family. There are men and women and they're

879
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 1: a families as well. Yeah, because yeah, and well and

880
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: also yeah, yeah, to to be clear, to be clear,

881
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 1: idea Margaret Thatcher not a friend of the trans is

882
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 1: shockingly wow looking, I guess. But but but I think

883
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 1: I think this family parts also very important, because yeah, definitely,

884
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 1: you know, like like neoliberalism has these it has these

885
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 1: two conflicting tendencies, right, it has this one tendency that

886
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 1: is like what it's it's trying it's trying to use

887
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 1: the family to create labor in two different ways at

888
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 1: the same time. One is it's it's treating it's treating

889
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 1: each person in a family as an individual who can

890
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: go produce value for people. But then secondarily, right, like

891
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: you know, neoliberalism isn't in an ideology of incredible alienation

892
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 1: and an incredible sort of atomization. Yeah, and also it's

893
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 1: it's it's it's an economy based on it's you know, it,

894
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: but simultaneously it has to be able to do reproductive labor.

895
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 1: And the way that it sort of like bridges the

896
00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 1: gap of this contradiction is with this sort of alliance

897
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:01,840
Speaker 1: it has with the religious right and was sort of

898
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 1: like religious conservatism in general, because it can it can

899
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 1: put up this false and this is where all the

900
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 1: trade calf shit comes from. This is where all of

901
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 1: the sort of like trad wife like, oh hey you can,

902
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: you can. When she's saying there are individual men and

903
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:17,359
Speaker 1: women and there are families, there's an implicit thing there

904
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 1: where she's saying families, like she she is leaving out

905
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 1: children as people because children are properties are family and

906
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 1: also like whatever reproductive labor has done to to make

907
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 1: those children into a into individual men and women, that

908
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: doesn't that's just part of the family, Like she's there's

909
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 1: a lot of heavy lifting happening in there are families,

910
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 1: right yeah, and and and I think the other part

911
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: of us, right it is like this is this is

912
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 1: the sort of like the sort of like new liberalism

913
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: has this sud of populism that it generates that's about

914
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: sort of like the family, and like the church like

915
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 1: this this the sites of sort of like like this

916
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 1: is how you resist sort of social alienation as you

917
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 1: do these things. But like both liberalism has like a

918
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: huge focus on consensus politics, where they they say, these

919
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: are the resources that are available, and you will get

920
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 1: a say in how they're distributed in your community. You

921
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 1: can come together and engage in the electoral process and

922
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 1: consensus politics and we all agreed on what and that's

923
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:16,760
Speaker 1: this is all just process to manufacture consent because actually

924
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 1: there are infinite resources available because we lawn the money

925
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:21,839
Speaker 1: for the rest of the entire fucking world. And if

926
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: this were like any other country that would have any

927
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 1: kind of like uh trickle down to get into the

928
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 1: Reaganomics effect for the rest of the population. But being Britain, uh,

929
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 1: you know, the country that invented concentration camps and workhouses. No,

930
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: absolutely not not a not a red scent is going

931
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 1: to be touched by the by the pause. Yeah, And

932
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: I mean that that kind of like I don't know

933
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 1: that that I think like that that also sort of

934
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: goes back to just like the containment of the working class.

935
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 1: The British working class is like a political force and

936
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: that's starting to commandow. But even then, like you know,

937
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,400
Speaker 1: this is is my what one of my one of

938
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 1: the things that I say that guess people the most

939
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:07,399
Speaker 1: mad at me is that like there's like, okay, one

940
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 1: in two days strikes are kind of like like, you know,

941
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 1: every single year, India has the largest general strike in

942
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,879
Speaker 1: human history, and it's one day and it does nothing.

943
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 1: And the only times it hasn't done nothing other times

944
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 1: when people have actually like kept going on strike or

945
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,399
Speaker 1: like you know mar March to farmers protests to one

946
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 1: two day strikes are a good practice to show that

947
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 1: we could hold out for as long as possible. They

948
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:35,239
Speaker 1: shouldn't be like the whole thing, and you know, okay,

949
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 1: And like I've talked about this before when when I've

950
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 1: sort of like interviewed nurses on this show, and like

951
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:43,879
Speaker 1: like there are absolutely times is especially especially in well,

952
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:45,400
Speaker 1: I actually I don't know if this is if this

953
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 1: works the same way in the British nursing sector, but

954
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 1: like there's there's absolutely like there are absolutely technical reasons

955
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 1: why you want to do a limited duration strike is

956
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 1: especially in the nursing sector, that have to do with

957
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 1: how like how the contracts work bringing in scabs. But

958
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: like one in two days strikes are kind of like

959
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 1: they're more symbolic than they are sort of like, yeah,

960
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:08,879
Speaker 1: an actual entrument of class war. And and I think

961
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 1: part of something that you have to engage within the

962
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 1: British process. And this is this is also true in

963
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 1: the US, but our unions are like there's like two

964
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 1: of them and they represent about seven people, so it

965
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 1: winds up being less of a deal unless you're like

966
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 1: a UC grad student on strike. But it is also

967
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 1: that like in Britain, the trade unions are just like

968
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 1: actively directly sort of like feeding into this incredibly dogshit

969
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 1: like yeah, political machine, which is well, okay, yeah, this

970
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 1: is an interesting question. This is an interesting like thing

971
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 1: to think through because so if people are familiar, we

972
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 1: had Thatcher bringing in the way of a neoliberalism, you know,

973
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 1: along with everyone's favorite guy, Ronald Mommy Reagan, and she

974
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 1: waged war on the minas especially, but the unions in

975
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 1: general across the UK and crushed the unions. And for

976
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 1: this she is forever remembered as a saint by the

977
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 1: ruling class and by the conservatives. But this was, as

978
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 1: I said earlier, like this was a part of a

979
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 1: trend in the imperial core where the most strongly unionized

980
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 1: sectors which were manufacturing and industrial and like mining were

981
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,239
Speaker 1: those unions had to be crushed so that that label

982
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 1: and then that labor was outsourced to the imperial periphery, right,

983
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 1: and now we're jobs in sectors where there are no unions,

984
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:33,399
Speaker 1: and there are these huge corporate unions in the UK,

985
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 1: like Unison that like basically claimed to be able to

986
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 1: represent any worker, which you know, if you're a fan

987
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 1: of the IWW, you shout out to the wobbles, like,

988
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 1: you know, that's that sounds pretty cool. But then no,

989
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 1: it's a massive yellow union. If people aren't familiar with

990
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 1: the yellow unions, we should hopefully be having an episode

991
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 1: of a Red Planet soon about just like making the

992
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 1: distinction so that people can tell them apart really quickly.

993
00:53:56,680 --> 00:54:00,320
Speaker 1: But like yellow unions first came into existence in ants,

994
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 1: I think, and it was this pointedly, this pointed change

995
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 1: from red unions who are actually fighting class warfare and

996
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,879
Speaker 1: actually trying to like stop the capitalist notion of work

997
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,439
Speaker 1: to a yellow union, which was like a corporate union.

998
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 1: And generally speaking, it would originally be like the corporation

999
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 1: who was having their unions, like their workers were rebelling.

1000
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 1: They would form a union that was employed by the

1001
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 1: corporation and then be like, look it's a union, guys,

1002
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:29,840
Speaker 1: you can join that and you'll get better conditions. And

1003
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:33,440
Speaker 1: it was a trap. But now we have, with the

1004
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:37,839
Speaker 1: miracle of neoliberalism, we have those that just their own

1005
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:40,720
Speaker 1: corporate entity and they're like, we can represent any worker

1006
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:44,840
Speaker 1: because we are a massive union with an entrenched corporate

1007
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 1: structure who have like direct ties and constant political deals

1008
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 1: with the with the like political establishment, which like you know,

1009
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 1: our Labor Party should rename itself at this point, like

1010
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 1: it is actively anti union, especially the unions that are

1011
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 1: fighting for the actual working class, like the today, Like

1012
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 1: as of recording this, like an hour and a half ago,

1013
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 1: there is a Tory MP who used to be a

1014
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 1: Labor MP until twenty eighteen has just been made like

1015
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 1: the vice chair of the Tory Party and he's like

1016
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 1: obviously a dog shit guy, but it's a really good

1017
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 1: demonstration of how like the labor is now just the

1018
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 1: red Tories. Um Tory now comes in red um they

1019
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:32,920
Speaker 1: these these massive unions. My point is like it is

1020
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 1: again a neoliberalization of everything, and it's a neoliberalization of

1021
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 1: unions where they get to just be a massive corporate

1022
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:44,320
Speaker 1: structure competing in like a free market of unions. Like

1023
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 1: they're trying to like compete to offer workers the best thing,

1024
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 1: and like, oh, we're most likely to succeeded out of

1025
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 1: demands because we have the most workers behind us. But

1026
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:56,040
Speaker 1: like practically everyone knows that what they're actually going to

1027
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:58,439
Speaker 1: get for the workers who are with them is dog shit.

1028
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:01,239
Speaker 1: Like my friend was talking to a nurse at one

1029
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 1: of these matches on the first affab and she was

1030
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 1: just saying, like she was with Unison and then they

1031
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 1: said that what they were like actually pushing for was

1032
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 1: was still like under inflation and still like it just

1033
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 1: just wouldn't be worthwhile at all. So she's changing to

1034
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 1: be with the Royal College of Nursing instead. Yeah, we had,

1035
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 1: we had enormous yellow unions in the UK. It's a

1036
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 1: really issue facing British labor organizing. Um, we're going to

1037
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 1: talk more about that in the Future of organizing in

1038
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 1: the UK in the next episode. For now, this has

1039
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:33,759
Speaker 1: been it could Happen here. You can find us in

1040
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 1: the usual places on Twitter and Instagram, dust the British Empire,

1041
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,600
Speaker 1: It's it could Happen Here A podcast where I think

1042
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 1: Turf Island is legitimately my only remaining British joker. I

1043
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:02,759
Speaker 1: think I've gone through basically every other one. So yeah,

1044
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:05,360
Speaker 1: welcome book up to us talking about Turf Islands. This

1045
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 1: is part two of our interview with Sophie from Mars

1046
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:13,279
Speaker 1: and Yeah, we're going to talk about how to make

1047
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 1: the UK less shit. Yay. The US have gotten to

1048
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 1: a point like a like a level of unionization that

1049
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 1: decreases every year, to the point where like it's people

1050
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 1: think of just like being in any union as like

1051
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 1: a socialist position, and it's like, guys, I I I

1052
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 1: have really bad nimes wish about yeah, like like it's

1053
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 1: it's really not that yeah and yeah, but but but

1054
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 1: I think there's this there's also this sort of like

1055
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, like one one one of the things

1056
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 1: you have to deal with when when you're dealing with

1057
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 1: the with like really very large unions, I don't do

1058
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 1: anything like this is the thing in China and that

1059
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 1: happens constantly is like, yeah, China technically as one of

1060
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: the world's large largest unions. It like the last time

1061
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 1: that union did anything was actually, weirdly, the less time

1062
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 1: that you didn't do anything. Was in was drink tienemen

1063
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 1: and then ever since then they have done literally jack shit.

1064
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 1: Like every room was like, oh my fucking god, hold on,

1065
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 1: oh no, But like yeah, you get these things that

1066
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:23,440
Speaker 1: are like technically unions, but you know, they don't do anything.

1067
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 1: They cooperate with bosses. They also and this is something

1068
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 1: you also see in the US. Well you don't really

1069
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 1: use China. You don't see this in China because there's

1070
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 1: they have one un trade union they have they have

1071
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 1: a state trade union federation because she is. In the

1072
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 1: US a lot where you get these really shitty things

1073
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 1: where like so someone will be organizing union campaign and

1074
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 1: like another union will come will like swoop in and

1075
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:41,800
Speaker 1: be like, ah, hey, look at these people, like well

1076
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 1: we'll give you like a better cut, and and they're

1077
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:49,920
Speaker 1: doing this like basically because like the okay, there are

1078
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:52,040
Speaker 1: there are there are unions that are like actually there

1079
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 1: are unions that are actually unions, which is to say

1080
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:55,560
Speaker 1: like there are there are unions that are sort of

1081
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 1: instruments of the working class and organizational to us. And

1082
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 1: then there are unions that are like we're forming a

1083
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:02,080
Speaker 1: union so we can increase our member roles. So we can,

1084
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 1: like you know, like we could be in so far

1085
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:07,560
Speaker 1: is we're interested in expanding. We're interested in expanding because

1086
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 1: if we expand, more people will pay money into our bureaucracy.

1087
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:13,800
Speaker 1: And that's a real like that that's a real issue.

1088
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 1: And I don't know, like it's interesting. It's interesting to

1089
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 1: me to see rather the sort of one day strikes

1090
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 1: that have been happening in the UK kind of like

1091
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 1: I don't know esco is not the right word, but well,

1092
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 1: I if we're gonna if we're discussing what should happen,

1093
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:34,520
Speaker 1: what's gonna happen next? Um? And I mean again, you

1094
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 1: don't know when this podcast is gonna come out, so

1095
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 1: like it could could be who knows, it could Like

1096
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:39,880
Speaker 1: I might offer some predictions here and you might be

1097
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:42,520
Speaker 1: able to like just look at the UK use and

1098
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 1: directly be like Sophie was full of shit. Um. But

1099
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 1: like also we should talk about young people in a minute,

1100
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 1: because that's like pretty crucial to understanding UK politics. But um,

1101
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:56,919
Speaker 1: but uh, the government right now, like I said before

1102
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 1: about Sunac, like he's trying to put in these massively

1103
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 1: authoritarian policies because he's realizing that like without them you

1104
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:06,240
Speaker 1: can't do neoliberalism effectively. And one of them is, like,

1105
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:08,400
Speaker 1: like I said about the pCFC bill, which was already

1106
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 1: in the works before soon that came in, but like

1107
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:12,240
Speaker 1: now it's come you know, now it's come through, and

1108
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 1: they're doing like a second wave of trying to do it.

1109
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 1: They have the Online Safety Bill, which is not for

1110
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 1: anyone to be safe online. It's trying to like control

1111
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:23,800
Speaker 1: freedom of the press basically like it's it's it's it's

1112
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 1: most extreme proposal is basically that like people who are

1113
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 1: anti capitalist and who are reporting on the news should

1114
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:34,280
Speaker 1: be arrested normal British momentum. And but one of these

1115
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:36,560
Speaker 1: ones is he's trying to just ban strikes, like he's

1116
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 1: effectively trying to ban strikes. The technical mechanism of it

1117
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:42,439
Speaker 1: is that they are bringing in a bill that will

1118
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 1: demand a minimum level of service for certain industries if

1119
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 1: the like, and it doesn't say what those minimum levels

1120
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:56,120
Speaker 1: would be, but the MPs can decide on it later

1121
01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 1: if they want, like set it to be whatever they want,

1122
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 1: and obviously they could a minimum to just be complete

1123
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 1: normal service. But even if they don't, like, setting a

1124
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 1: minimum service defeats the point of a strike, and I

1125
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:09,560
Speaker 1: think that if we're talking about what what will happen next,

1126
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:12,600
Speaker 1: we have this enough as enough movement right now. I'm

1127
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:14,680
Speaker 1: not I have mixed feelings about it. I have some

1128
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 1: some suspicions. I am not the biggest fan of electoral politics,

1129
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:22,240
Speaker 1: and I do feel like it has the whole knox

1130
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:25,400
Speaker 1: of something that could like launch a political party at

1131
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 1: any minute, and then it'll it'll it'll completely recuperate all

1132
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 1: energy that it has and every other bit of energy

1133
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 1: that will die off. But I think that the response

1134
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 1: to legislation trying to ban strikes is probably going to

1135
01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:43,240
Speaker 1: be an escalation from these one and two day strikes

1136
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 1: into like holding out for as long as they possibly

1137
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 1: can to demand concessions from the government and then like

1138
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 1: once you're in that territory you're actually talking about, you know,

1139
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:56,959
Speaker 1: do a voice for you're you're actually like it's it's

1140
01:01:57,160 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 1: it's as the as flobots would say, compassion as fast

1141
01:01:59,880 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 1: as as you can go time. Um where I think

1142
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:08,200
Speaker 1: that the movement of union of unions and class consciousness

1143
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 1: that's currently what rising in the UK is not going

1144
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:15,680
Speaker 1: to respond by like lying down and taking it when

1145
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 1: the government tries to ban strikes. I think that it's

1146
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 1: going to escalate. And speaking of escalation, is it time

1147
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:26,160
Speaker 1: for ads? Yeah, it's cool. Yeah, they're gonna look, the

1148
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:29,760
Speaker 1: Washington State Highway Patrol is going to escalate things right

1149
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:34,000
Speaker 1: into your school very quickly. So here's here's an ad

1150
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 1: for an escalating, worsening crisis of cryptocurrency and by sophie

1151
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:46,480
Speaker 1: coin the only currency which supports the working class. And

1152
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:48,560
Speaker 1: we're back. God, this is this is reminding me of

1153
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:55,040
Speaker 1: the lib coom oxidizable currency. David Harvey NFT thing. Oh

1154
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:58,560
Speaker 1: he was so bad, incredibly funny. Not not my fault

1155
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:02,440
Speaker 1: that you're okay, that is completely that is a completely

1156
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 1: unrelated aside. Oh yeah, well let us get back to Yeah.

1157
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:12,680
Speaker 1: Can I can I talk about young people for a man?

1158
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:14,400
Speaker 1: Because I do? Yeah. I think this is a really

1159
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:17,160
Speaker 1: important thing. That's probably going to be me just like

1160
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:19,840
Speaker 1: info dumping at you for a little bit, because I

1161
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:22,640
Speaker 1: feel very passionately about I also think it's very important

1162
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:27,480
Speaker 1: to understand the UK politics. It's that Britain hates young

1163
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 1: people so much, like it's inconceivable to people who live

1164
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 1: in other countries how much the media class, the political class,

1165
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:40,560
Speaker 1: like the ruling class like hates the young so fucking

1166
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:43,920
Speaker 1: much like if only under thirty fives could have voted

1167
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:46,800
Speaker 1: in any of our recent elections, every borough in the

1168
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:51,520
Speaker 1: UK would have been labor. That's less true now because

1169
01:03:51,560 --> 01:03:54,880
Speaker 1: our labor is run by the fucking head of the

1170
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:57,440
Speaker 1: Crown Prosecution Service, but like when it was Corbyn, it

1171
01:03:57,480 --> 01:03:59,680
Speaker 1: would have all been labor. And then if if people

1172
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:03,520
Speaker 1: I think like sixty could vote, it's like all conservative

1173
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:08,520
Speaker 1: like there is they hate young people because they know

1174
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:11,480
Speaker 1: that like social revolution will come from young people, and

1175
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:13,880
Speaker 1: they know that young people have like just a vastly

1176
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:18,200
Speaker 1: different understanding of the world. This is another Graverism, right,

1177
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:20,720
Speaker 1: if we're gonna if we're gonna grape out like Graver

1178
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:23,560
Speaker 1: said that, like that you could probably see that a

1179
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:27,240
Speaker 1: revolution has taken place if one generation and the next

1180
01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:31,520
Speaker 1: generation effectively speak a different language, like if their understanding

1181
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:34,680
Speaker 1: of the world is so is completely irreconcilable. And I

1182
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:37,000
Speaker 1: think that one one interesting thing about Turf Island is

1183
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:40,240
Speaker 1: that like trans rights are a really clear manifestation of that,

1184
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:44,480
Speaker 1: where people under thirty five are entirely in supportive trans rights,

1185
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:47,400
Speaker 1: they're entirely in supportive like self idea, you know, self

1186
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:52,200
Speaker 1: determination of gender and like improving the healthcare situation and

1187
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:56,360
Speaker 1: like informed consent healthcare and everything, and then people above

1188
01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:59,800
Speaker 1: that like practically entirely against it. And it's it's just

1189
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 1: like we have this, we have this absolutely wild generational

1190
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:07,360
Speaker 1: divide in the UK, and they've been trying to reign that,

1191
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:10,440
Speaker 1: like bring that under control with various policies for a

1192
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:15,000
Speaker 1: long time. So Tony Blair must be destroyed at all courts. No,

1193
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:18,560
Speaker 1: that's the IMF. Tony Blair multiple things at the same

1194
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:20,400
Speaker 1: time should go to jail in a world where no

1195
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:22,800
Speaker 1: one else goes to jail. No, yeah, that one, that

1196
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:28,720
Speaker 1: one works. Um, Tony Blair. Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement had

1197
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 1: this speech where he was like education, education, education, and

1198
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:33,480
Speaker 1: he was basically like, we are going to make it

1199
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:37,480
Speaker 1: so everyone goes to university. And he also did a

1200
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:39,680
Speaker 1: lot of other reforms to do with getting people into schools.

1201
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:42,560
Speaker 1: It was very it was it was it was contemporary

1202
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:46,040
Speaker 1: with and very comparable too, like bushes, no child left

1203
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:49,560
Speaker 1: behind kind of stuff. Oh god. So he did a

1204
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:52,320
Speaker 1: lot of stuff to try to like clamp down on

1205
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 1: youth and also create a pipeline for young people to

1206
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 1: get through high school and then go to university. Um

1207
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 1: he Also when I speaking of about clamping down on youth,

1208
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:06,400
Speaker 1: uh Mia, are you familiar with the asbo oh, isn't

1209
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:11,240
Speaker 1: the fucking sonic gun things? We're think a lot of

1210
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:14,360
Speaker 1: different think a different deranged British thing. This is a

1211
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:16,720
Speaker 1: this is a policy measure. It's just it's not it's

1212
01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:18,960
Speaker 1: not a weapon. It's um. I mean, it is a

1213
01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:22,160
Speaker 1: weapon of class offer, but it's um. It's the antisocial

1214
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:26,240
Speaker 1: behavior order. And basically this is part of the UK's

1215
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:30,440
Speaker 1: system of exclusions, right, Like we have a system set

1216
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:33,680
Speaker 1: up where young people can be excluded from a career

1217
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:36,120
Speaker 1: path and then like a path to just like being

1218
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 1: a functional human being in society uh at At Basically,

1219
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:43,560
Speaker 1: any moment, right, if a teacher takes against you, they

1220
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:46,560
Speaker 1: think you're rude, they think you're misbehaving, they can exclude you.

1221
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:49,120
Speaker 1: Then that goes onto your educational record, and then you know,

1222
01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:50,920
Speaker 1: you might get a permanent exclusion, which is what we

1223
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:53,840
Speaker 1: call being expelled from school now, right, and then that

1224
01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:57,440
Speaker 1: is like statistically sets people on a massive path towards

1225
01:06:57,600 --> 01:07:01,479
Speaker 1: ending up in like juvenile offense centers, like because they've

1226
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:03,360
Speaker 1: been kicked out of a school, and other schools don't

1227
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:04,760
Speaker 1: want to take a kid who's been kicked out of

1228
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:06,720
Speaker 1: a school, right, and then then what are they doing

1229
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:09,560
Speaker 1: with their time? Like there are no fucking youth centers,

1230
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:11,840
Speaker 1: there are no community centers, like they've been all been

1231
01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 1: completely destroyed by new neoliberalism. Um. So like we have

1232
01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:19,600
Speaker 1: the system of exclusions and and and as bo's are

1233
01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:22,000
Speaker 1: a big part of that, as both sends of anti

1234
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:27,160
Speaker 1: social behavior order. And basically it's like it's not just

1235
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:34,160
Speaker 1: like a warning, it's like it comes from It's like again,

1236
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:36,440
Speaker 1: it's something that's going on to a permanent record, and

1237
01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:39,400
Speaker 1: if you then commit crimes, you're going to be punished

1238
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:43,320
Speaker 1: more severely because you've been warned already. Um. It's like

1239
01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:47,680
Speaker 1: it's it was, it was. It was introduced and then

1240
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:50,120
Speaker 1: like cheered on by the ghouls who run our country,

1241
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:54,800
Speaker 1: like because it was going to deal with chavs, which

1242
01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:59,040
Speaker 1: was our term for young working class people, um, just

1243
01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:03,400
Speaker 1: our pejorative of being young and poor. Um. But it

1244
01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:08,120
Speaker 1: obviously also was there to target like young young black kids,

1245
01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:12,800
Speaker 1: young brown kids, young traveler kids, um and like and

1246
01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:14,800
Speaker 1: that was you know, that was Blair like clamping down

1247
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:17,600
Speaker 1: on any kind of existence outside of the pipeline that

1248
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:19,600
Speaker 1: he was setting up for just being in school. There

1249
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:21,800
Speaker 1: was also this massive focus on like attendance came in

1250
01:08:21,920 --> 01:08:24,280
Speaker 1: around the same time that like schools would punish people

1251
01:08:24,280 --> 01:08:27,000
Speaker 1: for for having missed any time at all. Like when

1252
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:30,360
Speaker 1: I was going to high school, we had like school

1253
01:08:30,400 --> 01:08:33,320
Speaker 1: assemblies where they would tell us about the importance of attendance,

1254
01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:36,120
Speaker 1: like over and over and over again, like probably a

1255
01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:39,479
Speaker 1: hundred times a term. They would tell people that, Like

1256
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:42,280
Speaker 1: they would tell the kids that, like attendance is the

1257
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:44,800
Speaker 1: most important thing, and like the difference in your grades

1258
01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:47,040
Speaker 1: will be enormous if you missed like a single lesson

1259
01:08:47,160 --> 01:08:49,280
Speaker 1: or a single week of school. And they would like

1260
01:08:49,360 --> 01:08:53,000
Speaker 1: give awards to kids who had perfect attendance that yeah, yeah,

1261
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:59,360
Speaker 1: and deranged as um and then like um, So that

1262
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:02,920
Speaker 1: was Blair, And it's continued to to kind of intensify

1263
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:05,679
Speaker 1: that same thing for a long time. But like very

1264
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:09,640
Speaker 1: recently this is again Sunax authoritarian policies. We've brought in

1265
01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:15,759
Speaker 1: something called Prevent Now. Prevent is a multifaceted civilian surveillance

1266
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:19,880
Speaker 1: program where basically people can be referred to prevent, which

1267
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:25,519
Speaker 1: is capitalist, white supremacist, Western centric re education. It's a

1268
01:09:25,560 --> 01:09:27,840
Speaker 1: it's a re education program. It's it's if people are

1269
01:09:28,040 --> 01:09:33,280
Speaker 1: considered to be holding extremist views, expressing extremist opinions, then

1270
01:09:33,320 --> 01:09:36,040
Speaker 1: they can be referred to Prevent. Now, like a lot

1271
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:39,439
Speaker 1: of the people in my kind of social circle will

1272
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:42,439
Speaker 1: like meme about prevent because like all the language is

1273
01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:46,519
Speaker 1: about like making extremist content or whatever, and obviously that's

1274
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:49,840
Speaker 1: what I do for a living. But like, but people

1275
01:09:49,880 --> 01:09:52,680
Speaker 1: would you know, make a tweet about how they think

1276
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:55,040
Speaker 1: that like the Prime minister's a dickhead and then be like, oh,

1277
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:57,240
Speaker 1: I'm going to get referred to prevent. And then it

1278
01:09:57,320 --> 01:09:59,400
Speaker 1: was noticeable that like, actually know, none of us are

1279
01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:02,400
Speaker 1: being referred to prevent, right, So like this isn't this

1280
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:05,680
Speaker 1: isn't for us. It's actually been put in place for

1281
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:08,920
Speaker 1: two specific purposes. I do know someone who's been I

1282
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:11,040
Speaker 1: do know someone who knows someone who's been referred to prevent.

1283
01:10:11,200 --> 01:10:13,720
Speaker 1: And the person they know who's referred to prevent is

1284
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:18,400
Speaker 1: a is a child, right, is a teenager because she

1285
01:10:18,479 --> 01:10:22,639
Speaker 1: works with trans youth, and like, being referred to prevent

1286
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:26,680
Speaker 1: is really there as a system to control Muslim populations

1287
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:29,280
Speaker 1: and young people, Like that's what it's really there to

1288
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:33,720
Speaker 1: target and trying to clamp down on young people expressing

1289
01:10:33,880 --> 01:10:36,639
Speaker 1: any kind you know, the Muslim side of that, it's

1290
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:39,280
Speaker 1: it's that has its own entire discussion. You could have

1291
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:44,320
Speaker 1: to do with Islamophobia and like terror and like there's

1292
01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:47,960
Speaker 1: a whole thing, like you know, the complete unwillingness of

1293
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:49,760
Speaker 1: the US and UK and all the other states from

1294
01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:54,519
Speaker 1: to acknowledge that like extremist Islamic terror is right wing terror.

1295
01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:56,479
Speaker 1: So then you if you merge those categories, you would

1296
01:10:56,479 --> 01:10:58,920
Speaker 1: see that actually the far right is the biggest threat

1297
01:10:58,920 --> 01:11:01,559
Speaker 1: to everyone all whatever. This is a whole other thing.

1298
01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:06,759
Speaker 1: Young people in the UK are under constant, like bart,

1299
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:11,600
Speaker 1: under this constant barrage of like media pressure, shaming, stigmatism,

1300
01:11:11,920 --> 01:11:16,439
Speaker 1: and it's because they they are expected to either get

1301
01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:19,640
Speaker 1: a degree and succeed and get your hundred k a

1302
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:23,200
Speaker 1: year salary job in whatever, or you are a piece

1303
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:25,679
Speaker 1: of shit and you will go to jail. And obviously

1304
01:11:25,760 --> 01:11:27,479
Speaker 1: the reality for most people is you're going to get

1305
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:30,360
Speaker 1: your degree or drop out and then you're going to

1306
01:11:30,439 --> 01:11:33,720
Speaker 1: wind up working in some kind of service sector job actually, right,

1307
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:37,280
Speaker 1: or if you're lucky, a fairly easy like office job

1308
01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:40,320
Speaker 1: where you can quiet quit and just doss off all day. Right,

1309
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:44,000
Speaker 1: But like the attacks on young people serves a very

1310
01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:47,439
Speaker 1: specific function, and it's because they're aware of that rebellion

1311
01:11:47,479 --> 01:11:50,599
Speaker 1: of the caring classes, and they're aware of the social

1312
01:11:50,720 --> 01:11:53,760
Speaker 1: revolutionary potential of young people, and they're trying to stop it,

1313
01:11:54,080 --> 01:11:55,880
Speaker 1: like trying as hard as they can to stop it.

1314
01:11:56,120 --> 01:11:57,880
Speaker 1: And their mechanism for doing that is that there's this

1315
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:01,439
Speaker 1: pipeline from birth until the end of your university degree

1316
01:12:01,439 --> 01:12:03,280
Speaker 1: and then hope and then allegedly you get a job,

1317
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:07,080
Speaker 1: but you don't really or else, as I say, you

1318
01:12:07,240 --> 01:12:11,559
Speaker 1: probably wind up in jail. The university thing is also

1319
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:15,000
Speaker 1: really really interesting because Grab again, fucking everyone take a shot.

1320
01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:18,560
Speaker 1: Grab pointed out that like revolution often comes out of

1321
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:24,080
Speaker 1: cases where the population isn't looking at like someone else

1322
01:12:24,160 --> 01:12:27,840
Speaker 1: gets something, Like the population doesn't look at the ruling

1323
01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:31,840
Speaker 1: class getting everything and then getting nothing and think that's unjust.

1324
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:34,400
Speaker 1: We should overthrow them. Right. This is how monarchy and

1325
01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:37,720
Speaker 1: kingdoms was able to perpetuate for such a long time.

1326
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:41,479
Speaker 1: It's when they think that someone else who they consider

1327
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:44,439
Speaker 1: comparable is getting something and they're not getting it. That's

1328
01:12:44,479 --> 01:12:48,040
Speaker 1: when they feel the injustice. And like, I think this

1329
01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:52,559
Speaker 1: education education, education speech and this moment and this policy

1330
01:12:52,600 --> 01:12:55,439
Speaker 1: set the neoliberalism and Blair and everyone since then has

1331
01:12:55,439 --> 01:12:57,640
Speaker 1: tried to kick into kick into action is going to

1332
01:12:57,680 --> 01:13:00,200
Speaker 1: turn out to be probably the biggest shooting themselves in

1333
01:13:00,240 --> 01:13:04,000
Speaker 1: the foot historically that we could measure, because they've basically

1334
01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:07,160
Speaker 1: made it that every person, like every young person in

1335
01:13:07,160 --> 01:13:10,920
Speaker 1: the UK must try to go to university. Not wanting

1336
01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:14,200
Speaker 1: to go to university is considered socially like backwards, and

1337
01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:17,040
Speaker 1: like then people go to university and then we all

1338
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:19,680
Speaker 1: find that there are not jobs in the UK for

1339
01:13:19,840 --> 01:13:22,280
Speaker 1: everyone who's gotten a degree, because they basically set up

1340
01:13:22,520 --> 01:13:24,920
Speaker 1: the whole country to be a diploma mill. Like the

1341
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:27,560
Speaker 1: whole entire country has this pipeline if everyone's going to

1342
01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:29,920
Speaker 1: get a degree and then and then what because there

1343
01:13:30,040 --> 01:13:32,880
Speaker 1: aren't fucking jobs, And that's going to create that sense

1344
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:37,479
Speaker 1: that like we are not getting what we deserve. Um. Yeah,

1345
01:13:37,520 --> 01:13:41,439
Speaker 1: I think that the the marketization and the like opening

1346
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:44,799
Speaker 1: up all these universities to be like profit driven diploma

1347
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:49,639
Speaker 1: mills is has radicalized an enormous number of young people,

1348
01:13:50,120 --> 01:13:52,320
Speaker 1: which which I think is really interesting because a lot

1349
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:54,720
Speaker 1: of Tory policy and like you know, like like what

1350
01:13:54,960 --> 01:13:56,160
Speaker 1: one of the one of the things the Tories did

1351
01:13:56,479 --> 01:13:58,160
Speaker 1: right right after they came to power, like right after

1352
01:13:58,240 --> 01:14:00,760
Speaker 1: two hunsand and eight was immediate imediately went to war

1353
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:03,280
Speaker 1: against sort of higher education, right, and immediately it started

1354
01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:06,080
Speaker 1: to doing increasing fees, and this is you know, this

1355
01:14:06,400 --> 01:14:07,960
Speaker 1: is what produces the l two thousand and ten like

1356
01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:10,800
Speaker 1: student movement. And it's really interesting to me that like

1357
01:14:11,600 --> 01:14:14,000
Speaker 1: it really kind of seems like, I don't know if

1358
01:14:14,240 --> 01:14:16,880
Speaker 1: for them, the cure was worse than the disease, because

1359
01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:19,360
Speaker 1: like you know, they they they they they survived two

1360
01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:21,720
Speaker 1: thousand and eight, right, and there was a real moment

1361
01:14:21,760 --> 01:14:23,640
Speaker 1: where it looked like globally that the ruling class was

1362
01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:25,560
Speaker 1: not going to survive three thousand and eight and that

1363
01:14:25,880 --> 01:14:28,240
Speaker 1: like they were they were all about to come down

1364
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:30,680
Speaker 1: and okay, so they survived that, but like, yeah, it

1365
01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:33,600
Speaker 1: really it really feels like they've sort of this is

1366
01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:35,400
Speaker 1: similar thing has happened in the US, right, which is

1367
01:14:35,439 --> 01:14:38,160
Speaker 1: like it turns out if if if if you turn

1368
01:14:38,240 --> 01:14:42,360
Speaker 1: an entire class of your population into just like basically

1369
01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:46,960
Speaker 1: like bait, basically basically the debt peons, those people get

1370
01:14:47,040 --> 01:14:52,519
Speaker 1: really really really pissed off. Yeah, it's like, you know, Okay,

1371
01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:54,320
Speaker 1: so you don't have a bunch of highly educated people

1372
01:14:54,320 --> 01:14:57,040
Speaker 1: who are very very very angry at people who forced

1373
01:14:57,080 --> 01:15:00,800
Speaker 1: the Potaking is always pointing out have been through university,

1374
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:02,960
Speaker 1: which is a culture where they're going to be exposed

1375
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:05,880
Speaker 1: to way more leftist ideas. Yeah, I mean, like, like,

1376
01:15:06,040 --> 01:15:08,000
Speaker 1: I like this is something I think about a lot,

1377
01:15:08,080 --> 01:15:13,120
Speaker 1: which is like I I think I knew I knew

1378
01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:16,439
Speaker 1: one openly gay person in high school, Like there were

1379
01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:19,439
Speaker 1: zero trans people, and I got I got to like

1380
01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:22,960
Speaker 1: the first time I was at least one, well you know,

1381
01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:25,519
Speaker 1: look I I I had no idea, and a part

1382
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:27,240
Speaker 1: of reason I no idea, like like that the first

1383
01:15:27,280 --> 01:15:30,400
Speaker 1: time I like met someone who was like openly trans

1384
01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:33,559
Speaker 1: was like literally the first time I walked onto campus. Yeah,

1385
01:15:33,560 --> 01:15:35,599
Speaker 1: and like like one of the first people I meet

1386
01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:37,720
Speaker 1: was like a trans guy who fucking rips. I hope

1387
01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:40,160
Speaker 1: I was having a good day. Yeah, and like like that,

1388
01:15:40,400 --> 01:15:43,760
Speaker 1: like you know, and I think there's this tendency in

1389
01:15:43,800 --> 01:15:45,920
Speaker 1: the US, particularly, there's this tendency to look at the

1390
01:15:46,000 --> 01:15:49,519
Speaker 1: university and look at like, yeah, like obvious obviously if

1391
01:15:49,640 --> 01:15:51,920
Speaker 1: if if if, if you're going to school in the US,

1392
01:15:51,920 --> 01:15:53,240
Speaker 1: and also if you're going to school in the UK,

1393
01:15:53,360 --> 01:15:55,320
Speaker 1: you are going to run into a Marxist professor who

1394
01:15:55,360 --> 01:15:58,120
Speaker 1: tries to break your strikes, right, Like that's that's that's

1395
01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:00,360
Speaker 1: the thing that's true. Like there are bunch of right

1396
01:16:00,400 --> 01:16:02,920
Speaker 1: wingers on campus. Like I went to the University of Chicago.

1397
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:06,759
Speaker 1: I have seen my own fucking econ departments. Our movement,

1398
01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:10,080
Speaker 1: if that is largely toughs like our Kathleen Stoker whoever,

1399
01:16:10,160 --> 01:16:12,800
Speaker 1: if you're familiar, like yep, yep, yeah, our right wing

1400
01:16:12,840 --> 01:16:16,240
Speaker 1: professors are almost always toughs. Yeah. But like, like you know,

1401
01:16:16,320 --> 01:16:18,720
Speaker 1: and there's there's this real tendency to sort of like

1402
01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:23,280
Speaker 1: completely disregard the university as like a thing that can

1403
01:16:23,400 --> 01:16:25,680
Speaker 1: produce anything remotely leftist. And I and I think that's

1404
01:16:25,680 --> 01:16:29,840
Speaker 1: just wrong. Like there's there's there, like there there was

1405
01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:31,640
Speaker 1: a reason a whole bunch of the universities in the

1406
01:16:31,760 --> 01:16:34,720
Speaker 1: US we're redesigned after sixty eight, Like they're there there,

1407
01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:37,320
Speaker 1: there's there's a reason why, like one of them. If

1408
01:16:37,439 --> 01:16:39,439
Speaker 1: you're doing a military coup in a Latin American country,

1409
01:16:39,439 --> 01:16:40,920
Speaker 1: one of the first things you do was roll tanks

1410
01:16:40,960 --> 01:16:44,040
Speaker 1: onto college campuses. Yeah, if you tanks onto the college campuses.

1411
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:45,680
Speaker 1: Those students are going to fight you until like all

1412
01:16:45,680 --> 01:16:48,280
Speaker 1: of them are fucking dead. Like yeah, that's a you know,

1413
01:16:48,400 --> 01:16:51,080
Speaker 1: like that that's like as as as as as much

1414
01:16:51,120 --> 01:16:54,599
Speaker 1: as you know, you can even look at hippie hippies

1415
01:16:54,640 --> 01:16:58,000
Speaker 1: and hot hats thing, right, Yeah, the media image the

1416
01:16:58,040 --> 01:17:02,400
Speaker 1: conservatives created, I think it was Nixon, Like the hippies

1417
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:05,080
Speaker 1: and the blue collar working class are incompatible and cannot

1418
01:17:05,080 --> 01:17:08,759
Speaker 1: work together. And the hippies are old, university educated effect

1419
01:17:08,920 --> 01:17:12,439
Speaker 1: liberals and working class people are conservative reactionaries, and that's

1420
01:17:12,479 --> 01:17:16,880
Speaker 1: like largely stuck until you get actual class consciousness building.

1421
01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:18,439
Speaker 1: Like this is something we're seeing massively in the UK

1422
01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:21,960
Speaker 1: right now. It's like the union, the growing union movement

1423
01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:26,120
Speaker 1: like has so many university educated people involved in it

1424
01:17:26,200 --> 01:17:29,280
Speaker 1: because like as soon as you start developing class consciousness,

1425
01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:32,320
Speaker 1: that that notion you're talking about, like that the universities

1426
01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:37,120
Speaker 1: can't produce something leftis just like flies out the window massively. Yeah,

1427
01:17:37,160 --> 01:17:39,479
Speaker 1: And I think that's why the US there's like this

1428
01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:43,040
Speaker 1: massive effort to sort of like I'm just gonna call

1429
01:17:43,040 --> 01:17:45,360
Speaker 1: it a fucking PSI up because it is like there's

1430
01:17:45,400 --> 01:17:47,120
Speaker 1: this massive PSI up to get people to like not

1431
01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:50,599
Speaker 1: think that, like being a barista is like I think

1432
01:17:50,640 --> 01:17:52,720
Speaker 1: there produces value, and it's like I'm going to beat

1433
01:17:52,720 --> 01:17:55,240
Speaker 1: you to death with a copy of episode of these things.

1434
01:17:55,320 --> 01:17:57,479
Speaker 1: It's like it's like with serial killer. Wait wait wait

1435
01:17:57,520 --> 01:17:59,960
Speaker 1: if you're like if you're like, well, what's the different

1436
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:02,800
Speaker 1: it's a serial killer and a cop who kills a

1437
01:18:02,840 --> 01:18:05,080
Speaker 1: bunch of people. The differences that the couple will never

1438
01:18:05,120 --> 01:18:07,760
Speaker 1: be found guilty. Right, Like once you start like, once

1439
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:10,120
Speaker 1: you start looking at what you could call a SSIE up,

1440
01:18:10,160 --> 01:18:13,080
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, the whole of capitalist media as a

1441
01:18:13,160 --> 01:18:15,840
Speaker 1: PSI up. Like yeah, but you know, I think the

1442
01:18:16,080 --> 01:18:19,439
Speaker 1: very specific thing here is like okay, if if if,

1443
01:18:19,560 --> 01:18:22,559
Speaker 1: if you look at who was in the UAW right now, right,

1444
01:18:23,439 --> 01:18:25,680
Speaker 1: the UAW is composed of two kinds of people. It

1445
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:28,439
Speaker 1: is composed of people the remaining people who work in

1446
01:18:28,439 --> 01:18:31,000
Speaker 1: the auto industry, and it is composed of grad student unions,

1447
01:18:31,479 --> 01:18:34,960
Speaker 1: right Yeah, And I think I saw statistic recently. I

1448
01:18:35,320 --> 01:18:36,960
Speaker 1: think it's true of the way I wasn't able to

1449
01:18:37,040 --> 01:18:39,799
Speaker 1: verify it, which is that like thirty percent by volume

1450
01:18:39,880 --> 01:18:42,599
Speaker 1: of the UAWS total membership right now are from are

1451
01:18:42,640 --> 01:18:46,040
Speaker 1: from workers in the university of California system, like the

1452
01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:49,120
Speaker 1: you know, the the the the the actual class configuration

1453
01:18:49,920 --> 01:18:52,360
Speaker 1: that that that is happening right now. It is this

1454
01:18:52,600 --> 01:18:56,479
Speaker 1: very weird sort of alliance of industrial workers and then

1455
01:18:56,560 --> 01:18:58,439
Speaker 1: people and then people who've been like people people who

1456
01:18:58,439 --> 01:19:00,840
Speaker 1: are highly educated who've been like picked into really shitty

1457
01:19:00,880 --> 01:19:04,080
Speaker 1: service jobs. And that's a real like and that's the

1458
01:19:04,160 --> 01:19:06,559
Speaker 1: reason I I genuinely I think the reason you see

1459
01:19:06,600 --> 01:19:08,640
Speaker 1: so much of this sort of like like the right

1460
01:19:08,680 --> 01:19:11,439
Speaker 1: wing population around some of like the productive like working

1461
01:19:11,520 --> 01:19:14,639
Speaker 1: classic is specifically because this is this is a genuinely

1462
01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:17,800
Speaker 1: very powerful political lines. Even people like Lula, who like

1463
01:19:18,080 --> 01:19:20,000
Speaker 1: Lula like fucking hate it. Like you can you can

1464
01:19:20,120 --> 01:19:23,000
Speaker 1: go back and read like a million hilarious Lula quotes

1465
01:19:23,320 --> 01:19:26,040
Speaker 1: about like how much he hates fucking student radicals from

1466
01:19:26,080 --> 01:19:28,479
Speaker 1: like nineteen seventy three. He was just like a football

1467
01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:30,400
Speaker 1: fan guy, right, like he was just yeah, but like

1468
01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:32,439
Speaker 1: but even even even after becomes a labor leader like

1469
01:19:32,479 --> 01:19:34,120
Speaker 1: he he he has he spends a whole bunch of

1470
01:19:34,120 --> 01:19:35,840
Speaker 1: time like kicking all the student maoists out of his

1471
01:19:36,080 --> 01:19:38,120
Speaker 1: out of his like strikes and stuff, and like like

1472
01:19:38,200 --> 01:19:40,160
Speaker 1: he has this great line that was like this guy

1473
01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:42,240
Speaker 1: walks into the door. I looked at his hands and

1474
01:19:42,360 --> 01:19:44,559
Speaker 1: they were perfectly smooth, and I said, and I said

1475
01:19:44,600 --> 01:19:50,360
Speaker 1: to myself, this man is a Trotskyite. But like even

1476
01:19:50,640 --> 01:19:52,640
Speaker 1: you know, Lula, who was like he was like the

1477
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:56,599
Speaker 1: like has left around the world. It's very like other

1478
01:19:56,640 --> 01:19:59,559
Speaker 1: Trotskyites in the room with you right now. Yeah, well

1479
01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:02,280
Speaker 1: I to to to to be fair, to be fair

1480
01:20:02,360 --> 01:20:06,320
Speaker 1: there he wasn't actually actually yeah, in the UK, it's

1481
01:20:06,400 --> 01:20:07,880
Speaker 1: much more like all the Maoists in the room with

1482
01:20:07,920 --> 01:20:09,680
Speaker 1: you right now. That's sh but like like you know,

1483
01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:12,439
Speaker 1: but like like even even Lula like basically had to

1484
01:20:12,439 --> 01:20:15,280
Speaker 1: abandon that completely because you know, like the it it

1485
01:20:15,360 --> 01:20:17,080
Speaker 1: turns out that like you can't actually like you know,

1486
01:20:17,320 --> 01:20:20,120
Speaker 1: as as as the sort of union's decayed in Brazil

1487
01:20:20,240 --> 01:20:22,280
Speaker 1: as they did everywhere else. I mean, brazilso has friendly

1488
01:20:22,320 --> 01:20:25,040
Speaker 1: loge unions, but like Brazil, bil the kind of industrial

1489
01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:27,320
Speaker 1: stuff that like existed in Brazil and like the eighties

1490
01:20:27,439 --> 01:20:30,240
Speaker 1: is gone, right yeah, and you know, it's like, well, okay,

1491
01:20:30,280 --> 01:20:32,120
Speaker 1: even even now, like yeah, he's his base has a

1492
01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:34,080
Speaker 1: bunch of like it has has is it has a

1493
01:20:34,120 --> 01:20:36,600
Speaker 1: bunch of just like university educated people working service jobs, right,

1494
01:20:36,960 --> 01:20:40,800
Speaker 1: and you know, like there's no there's no actual like

1495
01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:45,799
Speaker 1: they're there. There's no version of a functional leftist political

1496
01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:49,479
Speaker 1: coalition that doesn't have that. And it's obviously significant that

1497
01:20:49,600 --> 01:20:52,120
Speaker 1: two of the most prominent leftist theorists of the last

1498
01:20:52,240 --> 01:20:56,280
Speaker 1: like twenty years, David Graeber and Mark Fisher both walked

1499
01:20:56,280 --> 01:20:59,400
Speaker 1: in education. Yeah, right, like and Glacia was pointing out

1500
01:20:59,439 --> 01:21:01,720
Speaker 1: the whole like second shift stuff, kind of like we

1501
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:03,800
Speaker 1: were talking about ut before with like reproductive labor, and

1502
01:21:03,840 --> 01:21:06,320
Speaker 1: he was talking about how like exhausted people are because

1503
01:21:06,320 --> 01:21:07,439
Speaker 1: they do their job and then that you know, and

1504
01:21:07,840 --> 01:21:10,200
Speaker 1: it's not it's it's not just women anymore. Like this,

1505
01:21:10,400 --> 01:21:13,200
Speaker 1: this this labor is expected of everyone. I mean, still

1506
01:21:13,400 --> 01:21:16,360
Speaker 1: disproportionately women and disproportionately women of color. But like, you know,

1507
01:21:16,479 --> 01:21:20,000
Speaker 1: he was telling a story about like his colleagues working

1508
01:21:20,040 --> 01:21:22,519
Speaker 1: in a high school that they that the only time

1509
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:25,360
Speaker 1: they could find to organize or first complain about their

1510
01:21:25,400 --> 01:21:27,640
Speaker 1: working conditions and then organized was like when they went

1511
01:21:27,680 --> 01:21:30,560
Speaker 1: to the pub after work together. Right, yeah, well, I

1512
01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:32,599
Speaker 1: think it's also like I'm pretty sure it's a true,

1513
01:21:32,600 --> 01:21:34,200
Speaker 1: which I know it's true, agree, but like the like

1514
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:37,240
Speaker 1: those those were both people from working class families who

1515
01:21:37,280 --> 01:21:39,280
Speaker 1: went into academia, which is a very sort of like

1516
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:42,920
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's it's it's it's a very like

1517
01:21:43,000 --> 01:21:45,559
Speaker 1: I guess potent combination for how how you get people

1518
01:21:46,240 --> 01:21:48,400
Speaker 1: into radical politics. And I think I think this is yeah, yeah,

1519
01:21:48,400 --> 01:21:50,320
Speaker 1: again going back to sort of like totally Blair shooting

1520
01:21:50,360 --> 01:21:52,640
Speaker 1: himself from the foot, which is like, okay, so you

1521
01:21:52,800 --> 01:21:54,880
Speaker 1: you're now you're you're now forcing a bunch of working

1522
01:21:54,920 --> 01:21:58,800
Speaker 1: class people into universities, yeah, and then saddling the student debt.

1523
01:21:58,840 --> 01:22:03,760
Speaker 1: And it's like I wonder, I wonder, what will understanding

1524
01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:06,679
Speaker 1: of the world around you at the cost of becoming

1525
01:22:06,720 --> 01:22:08,840
Speaker 1: a debt pon, which will make your understanding of the

1526
01:22:08,880 --> 01:22:12,400
Speaker 1: world around you a very radical one very quickly. Yeah,

1527
01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:14,800
Speaker 1: And it's like okay, like like the there there is

1528
01:22:14,840 --> 01:22:17,240
Speaker 1: a certain extent to which millennials gets sort of less

1529
01:22:17,280 --> 01:22:18,760
Speaker 1: radical overtime, but like if you look at the less

1530
01:22:18,800 --> 01:22:22,519
Speaker 1: radical overtime, it's like they go from autonomous to corbinites. No,

1531
01:22:22,840 --> 01:22:25,560
Speaker 1: and that's still not great if you're like yes, but

1532
01:22:25,760 --> 01:22:30,680
Speaker 1: like yeah, it's friends conservative as the age is like

1533
01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:34,080
Speaker 1: largely not affecting millennials and gen Z And like, I

1534
01:22:34,200 --> 01:22:36,360
Speaker 1: think that I mean, one of the most obvious things

1535
01:22:36,520 --> 01:22:39,200
Speaker 1: point to as the climate crisis, right, like previous generations

1536
01:22:39,240 --> 01:22:42,080
Speaker 1: when not growing up being like the world will not

1537
01:22:42,200 --> 01:22:44,920
Speaker 1: be here when I reach retirement age unless we act.

1538
01:22:45,439 --> 01:22:48,559
Speaker 1: I don't think it's impossible for people to sell out

1539
01:22:48,600 --> 01:22:51,200
Speaker 1: like that. There are still a limited number of sellout

1540
01:22:51,320 --> 01:22:53,439
Speaker 1: jobs you could take, right, But the problem is there's

1541
01:22:53,439 --> 01:22:56,200
Speaker 1: just there's there's not enough of them in order to

1542
01:22:56,320 --> 01:22:58,679
Speaker 1: like actually buy people off on mass and like any

1543
01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:00,479
Speaker 1: other thing, particularly was like you know, the I supposed

1544
01:23:00,479 --> 01:23:02,360
Speaker 1: to make you work conservative this property ownership, I'm like,

1545
01:23:02,920 --> 01:23:05,600
Speaker 1: who the fuck is going to buy a house? Like,

1546
01:23:05,960 --> 01:23:10,000
Speaker 1: oh yeah, what, like I wonder under one circumstances, Yeah,

1547
01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:13,080
Speaker 1: Like yeah, I am past the age when my parents

1548
01:23:13,200 --> 01:23:15,160
Speaker 1: bought a house. I am past the age when my

1549
01:23:15,240 --> 01:23:19,160
Speaker 1: grandparents bought a house. And I know, like one person

1550
01:23:19,280 --> 01:23:22,640
Speaker 1: who's bought a house my age, who's like working for

1551
01:23:22,840 --> 01:23:26,400
Speaker 1: a like a privatized rail company, and who's who's partner

1552
01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:30,080
Speaker 1: like works for the police, Like, oh boy, no one's

1553
01:23:30,120 --> 01:23:33,920
Speaker 1: getting houses. Yeah, I mean like my I was, I

1554
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:35,639
Speaker 1: was ausally do my friends like a who has a house,

1555
01:23:35,800 --> 01:23:39,080
Speaker 1: Like I have a friend who bought a condo? Yeah,

1556
01:23:39,439 --> 01:23:41,840
Speaker 1: Like but that's the thing like that, that's that that

1557
01:23:42,200 --> 01:23:43,920
Speaker 1: was that was another thing that was like they got

1558
01:23:43,960 --> 01:23:45,760
Speaker 1: health with their parents, and it's like health of your

1559
01:23:45,800 --> 01:23:47,640
Speaker 1: parents doesn't even get you a fucking house anymore, like

1560
01:23:49,080 --> 01:23:53,639
Speaker 1: a condo. I got, like I got like a little

1561
01:23:53,680 --> 01:23:56,479
Speaker 1: bit of money after my dad died, and it was

1562
01:23:56,720 --> 01:24:01,040
Speaker 1: enough to partially help for my my my surgery and

1563
01:24:01,240 --> 01:24:04,840
Speaker 1: then like fight off like rent debt for a few months,

1564
01:24:04,920 --> 01:24:08,360
Speaker 1: and that was all and it just disappeared, right, It's like, yeah,

1565
01:24:09,800 --> 01:24:11,080
Speaker 1: and you know what I mean. I mean, I think,

1566
01:24:11,080 --> 01:24:16,040
Speaker 1: I think, like like Britain's inflation is somebody is worse,

1567
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:19,679
Speaker 1: way worse than the US is, which is truly stunning

1568
01:24:20,520 --> 01:24:23,960
Speaker 1: and makes me like want to cry because oh my god,

1569
01:24:24,479 --> 01:24:28,080
Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's it's something else. It's

1570
01:24:28,120 --> 01:24:31,680
Speaker 1: truly so economically the UK is. And again we have

1571
01:24:31,760 --> 01:24:33,160
Speaker 1: to just keep on coming back to the fact that

1572
01:24:33,600 --> 01:24:35,320
Speaker 1: Britain is just a smoke screen, like the whole of

1573
01:24:35,400 --> 01:24:39,080
Speaker 1: British society barely barely exists and is just like a

1574
01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:42,360
Speaker 1: collection of reactionary buzzwords, and then like a ton of

1575
01:24:42,479 --> 01:24:46,720
Speaker 1: people who are increasingly angryer and angrier about it. I

1576
01:24:46,720 --> 01:24:48,599
Speaker 1: don't know, I had a really good conversation a little

1577
01:24:48,600 --> 01:24:51,200
Speaker 1: while ago with like an old woman who lives in

1578
01:24:51,520 --> 01:24:55,320
Speaker 1: my like neighborhood. We met through some like community project stuff,

1579
01:24:55,640 --> 01:24:57,439
Speaker 1: and she just came by while we were hanging out

1580
01:24:57,479 --> 01:25:01,080
Speaker 1: on the stoop and U, yeah, we were just talking

1581
01:25:01,120 --> 01:25:03,160
Speaker 1: about Boris Johnson. It was right after Boris Johnson had

1582
01:25:03,200 --> 01:25:07,120
Speaker 1: come in and she was in like she was basically

1583
01:25:07,160 --> 01:25:10,880
Speaker 1: getting revolution pilled, like she like she was not at

1584
01:25:10,920 --> 01:25:13,160
Speaker 1: all a political person for as long as I've known her.

1585
01:25:13,479 --> 01:25:16,280
Speaker 1: And then like it was just yet another of the

1586
01:25:16,400 --> 01:25:19,839
Speaker 1: like revolving door, like like the Tory Party is currently

1587
01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:22,760
Speaker 1: running the boss rush strategy that they just like keep

1588
01:25:22,800 --> 01:25:25,000
Speaker 1: on swapping out Tory prime ministers as fast as they

1589
01:25:25,040 --> 01:25:29,120
Speaker 1: can and like and and I said to her, like,

1590
01:25:30,080 --> 01:25:34,639
Speaker 1: when people realize that, by definition, no one will ever

1591
01:25:34,840 --> 01:25:39,200
Speaker 1: hold the office who respects what the office is allegedly for,

1592
01:25:39,479 --> 01:25:42,320
Speaker 1: like serves the people or whatever. When people realize that, like,

1593
01:25:42,720 --> 01:25:45,760
Speaker 1: it's not just that like coincidentally, all of our prime

1594
01:25:45,800 --> 01:25:48,720
Speaker 1: ministers went to Eton and all of those like when

1595
01:25:48,760 --> 01:25:50,479
Speaker 1: they were in when they were then in Oxford, they

1596
01:25:50,520 --> 01:25:53,080
Speaker 1: were in like the Bullingdon Boys Club. It's not a coincidence.

1597
01:25:53,360 --> 01:25:55,840
Speaker 1: It's like that's the pipeline is how you get there. Like,

1598
01:25:55,960 --> 01:25:58,280
Speaker 1: when people realize that and they realize that no one

1599
01:25:58,320 --> 01:26:00,800
Speaker 1: will ever hold the office of prime as to who

1600
01:26:00,960 --> 01:26:04,360
Speaker 1: is there to to serve the country, They're gonna realize

1601
01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:06,240
Speaker 1: that they have to take care of each other instead,

1602
01:26:06,320 --> 01:26:08,160
Speaker 1: and we have to build something that we have to

1603
01:26:08,280 --> 01:26:10,400
Speaker 1: we have to build society from the ground up. And

1604
01:26:10,479 --> 01:26:13,760
Speaker 1: she was like yeah, she was like, yeah, I think

1605
01:26:13,840 --> 01:26:18,400
Speaker 1: that's what's literally happening in our community right now. Yeah,

1606
01:26:18,439 --> 01:26:21,720
Speaker 1: And I think that's sort of encouraging because like I

1607
01:26:21,760 --> 01:26:26,760
Speaker 1: don't know, like just the absolute wreckage that was Corbinism

1608
01:26:26,880 --> 01:26:28,840
Speaker 1: of just like the complete shit show of how that

1609
01:26:29,040 --> 01:26:33,080
Speaker 1: entire project went. Yeah, Like I know it's caused some

1610
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:36,599
Speaker 1: people to sort of like basically like you know, every

1611
01:26:36,680 --> 01:26:39,400
Speaker 1: every every every every successor generation of politics has like

1612
01:26:39,880 --> 01:26:41,720
Speaker 1: the person who used to be a Trotskyite who is

1613
01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:44,640
Speaker 1: now like a labor minister or is now like a

1614
01:26:44,760 --> 01:26:47,960
Speaker 1: fucking Tory minister. You're a pee boot judge and Kamala Harris,

1615
01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:50,800
Speaker 1: who are both raised by market academics. Yeah yeah, well

1616
01:26:50,800 --> 01:26:55,880
Speaker 1: I mean even like like Google, I am blink Goo Google,

1617
01:26:55,960 --> 01:27:00,320
Speaker 1: who build a Blasio's wife is Okay? She was she was,

1618
01:27:00,360 --> 01:27:01,760
Speaker 1: she was one of the founding members. They go, he'd

1619
01:27:01,760 --> 01:27:05,320
Speaker 1: be a river collective. Oh wow, yeah, like there's a

1620
01:27:05,360 --> 01:27:10,120
Speaker 1: lot of shit like that. Yeah, but like yeah, you know,

1621
01:27:10,160 --> 01:27:13,599
Speaker 1: but like it as much as this is a thing,

1622
01:27:14,479 --> 01:27:17,800
Speaker 1: I don't know, And insofar as it seems like the

1623
01:27:17,920 --> 01:27:19,960
Speaker 1: UK has the potential to be something that's not this,

1624
01:27:20,800 --> 01:27:23,400
Speaker 1: it's it seems like it's cool. It genuinely seems like

1625
01:27:23,439 --> 01:27:24,720
Speaker 1: it's going to be through labor and it's going to

1626
01:27:24,760 --> 01:27:27,639
Speaker 1: be through sort of street actions and organizing that's that's

1627
01:27:27,720 --> 01:27:30,200
Speaker 1: not taking places at the Labor Party. And I think hoping,

1628
01:27:30,439 --> 01:27:33,799
Speaker 1: like practically everyone I know who was invested in Corbyn

1629
01:27:34,800 --> 01:27:38,639
Speaker 1: is now like no party could possibly solve the problems

1630
01:27:38,680 --> 01:27:42,200
Speaker 1: of the UK because they watched like a guy, Oh

1631
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:45,120
Speaker 1: here's a great movie recommendation, a very British coup. If

1632
01:27:45,160 --> 01:27:47,000
Speaker 1: people haven't seen this, and it's it's pretty obscure, so

1633
01:27:47,080 --> 01:27:49,120
Speaker 1: you probably haven't. But like it's it's just about a

1634
01:27:49,160 --> 01:27:50,719
Speaker 1: guy who is on the side of the working class

1635
01:27:50,760 --> 01:27:53,240
Speaker 1: becoming Prime Minister and then how the media likes like

1636
01:27:53,640 --> 01:27:56,200
Speaker 1: character assassinate him and have him removed from power, and

1637
01:27:56,439 --> 01:27:59,400
Speaker 1: like it's almost beat for beat what happened to Corbyn

1638
01:27:59,439 --> 01:28:03,960
Speaker 1: and it was made like the nineties. Um, but like, uh,

1639
01:28:04,640 --> 01:28:06,960
Speaker 1: you know, a guy comes along and floats like very

1640
01:28:07,120 --> 01:28:11,439
Speaker 1: mild social Democrat policies, and the entire media class says

1641
01:28:11,439 --> 01:28:13,320
Speaker 1: that he's going to like drag the country back to

1642
01:28:13,439 --> 01:28:17,879
Speaker 1: the seventies, and like there's there's like um like soldier

1643
01:28:18,160 --> 01:28:20,639
Speaker 1: like they're they're like units in the army doing target

1644
01:28:20,720 --> 01:28:23,679
Speaker 1: practice on pictures of him, and like people openly declaring

1645
01:28:23,720 --> 01:28:25,800
Speaker 1: that they will assassinate him if he comes into power

1646
01:28:25,880 --> 01:28:28,120
Speaker 1: and shit like this, and it's just like and then

1647
01:28:28,240 --> 01:28:31,439
Speaker 1: like people within the party work to sabotage his election.

1648
01:28:31,520 --> 01:28:33,639
Speaker 1: The election in twenty seventeen was lost by like two

1649
01:28:33,680 --> 01:28:36,120
Speaker 1: thousand votes, you know, and then it's pushed out and

1650
01:28:36,160 --> 01:28:40,120
Speaker 1: replaced by the worst imaginable neoliberal top top cop ghoul

1651
01:28:40,400 --> 01:28:46,760
Speaker 1: Kia Starma um. And like that spectacle has radicalized people

1652
01:28:47,040 --> 01:28:51,320
Speaker 1: so hard. Like I don't know, yeah, I don't think

1653
01:28:51,360 --> 01:28:55,720
Speaker 1: I know anyone who who who who supported Corbyn who

1654
01:28:55,840 --> 01:28:59,639
Speaker 1: now thinks that our problems can be solved without mass

1655
01:29:00,200 --> 01:29:05,240
Speaker 1: rising or at least like without union power basically like

1656
01:29:05,880 --> 01:29:09,519
Speaker 1: kicking the shit out of the government. I don't like, yeah,

1657
01:29:09,560 --> 01:29:13,000
Speaker 1: I don't really the the UK is we are we

1658
01:29:13,200 --> 01:29:19,240
Speaker 1: are don't vote pilled, I think, yeah, which which I

1659
01:29:19,320 --> 01:29:25,360
Speaker 1: think is yeah, I don't know like it. It strikes

1660
01:29:25,400 --> 01:29:28,320
Speaker 1: me in my sort of like I don't know my

1661
01:29:28,720 --> 01:29:31,439
Speaker 1: cursory knowledge of British history that like the most effective

1662
01:29:32,240 --> 01:29:34,679
Speaker 1: sort of British left wing political movements in a long

1663
01:29:34,800 --> 01:29:38,040
Speaker 1: time was the poll tech stuff in the nineties, which

1664
01:29:38,120 --> 01:29:41,000
Speaker 1: was defeated like into almost entirely by accommodation of street

1665
01:29:41,040 --> 01:29:45,200
Speaker 1: movements and like non party organizing. Yeah, and you know,

1666
01:29:45,400 --> 01:29:46,960
Speaker 1: I don't know that the UK's did a very weird

1667
01:29:47,000 --> 01:29:49,000
Speaker 1: position where it's like I don't know if there's a

1668
01:29:49,000 --> 01:29:50,400
Speaker 1: way it could have been different, but it's like it

1669
01:29:50,800 --> 01:29:52,840
Speaker 1: very much looked like the like like the sort of

1670
01:29:53,080 --> 01:29:56,280
Speaker 1: just like the incredibly furthest right, like just like absolute

1671
01:29:56,360 --> 01:29:58,760
Speaker 1: most shit parts of British society. We're going like far

1672
01:29:58,840 --> 01:30:01,280
Speaker 1: right parts of praciety, We're gonn the empower forever. But

1673
01:30:01,479 --> 01:30:04,360
Speaker 1: then somehow they managed to do the thing that social

1674
01:30:04,360 --> 01:30:07,840
Speaker 1: democratic governments always do, which is like they they managed

1675
01:30:07,840 --> 01:30:10,000
Speaker 1: to produce a series of of like changes in in

1676
01:30:10,240 --> 01:30:13,680
Speaker 1: the UK's class structure such that like they produced an

1677
01:30:13,840 --> 01:30:17,120
Speaker 1: entire like like they they like they you know, well

1678
01:30:17,160 --> 01:30:19,600
Speaker 1: I mean they they got their worst nightmare, which that

1679
01:30:19,640 --> 01:30:21,360
Speaker 1: they actually got into power and got to do all

1680
01:30:21,400 --> 01:30:23,599
Speaker 1: their policies. It turns out if you actually do all

1681
01:30:23,600 --> 01:30:26,960
Speaker 1: of their policies, the entire world implodes. And with with that,

1682
01:30:27,040 --> 01:30:28,720
Speaker 1: with that, with that, with with without some kind of

1683
01:30:28,720 --> 01:30:30,840
Speaker 1: functional opposition to make sure if they don't literally like

1684
01:30:31,360 --> 01:30:35,360
Speaker 1: press press to destroy the economy button. They were article

1685
01:30:35,400 --> 01:30:38,759
Speaker 1: that was like Sunak is going to raise energy bills

1686
01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:42,200
Speaker 1: like forty percent in April, and I just like, I

1687
01:30:42,640 --> 01:30:45,120
Speaker 1: just being like, they're just daring the working class to

1688
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:48,280
Speaker 1: overthrow them at this point, Like, yeah, it's not that,

1689
01:30:48,439 --> 01:30:51,280
Speaker 1: but like I've seen the same take. Um. The leftist

1690
01:30:51,320 --> 01:30:53,720
Speaker 1: journalist Owen Jones said a little while like when lisz

1691
01:30:53,760 --> 01:30:55,400
Speaker 1: Trust was in he was like, I'm pretty sure she's

1692
01:30:55,439 --> 01:30:58,640
Speaker 1: actually an undercover Trutskit trying to initiate revolution by doing

1693
01:30:58,680 --> 01:31:02,200
Speaker 1: the worst policies possible. Like it really feels like that sometimes.

1694
01:31:02,240 --> 01:31:04,639
Speaker 1: But it is just like, as you say, the nightmare

1695
01:31:04,720 --> 01:31:08,080
Speaker 1: of their politics that like they can't they are just

1696
01:31:08,360 --> 01:31:12,639
Speaker 1: um incapable of conceiving of the harm that they're doing.

1697
01:31:12,840 --> 01:31:15,360
Speaker 1: And speaking of being incapable of conceiving of the harm

1698
01:31:15,400 --> 01:31:20,000
Speaker 1: that they're doing, here's an ad for Raytheon. I don't

1699
01:31:20,000 --> 01:31:23,280
Speaker 1: know something. So when I said before about like the

1700
01:31:23,400 --> 01:31:27,120
Speaker 1: generational divide and how reactionary like older people in the

1701
01:31:27,240 --> 01:31:30,320
Speaker 1: UK are, that applies to some of our like our

1702
01:31:30,560 --> 01:31:34,600
Speaker 1: older leftists as well. So there is this like offshoot

1703
01:31:34,640 --> 01:31:37,360
Speaker 1: of the of CPGB, the Communist Potty of Great Britain

1704
01:31:37,560 --> 01:31:41,759
Speaker 1: called CPGB mL the Communist Ploty of Great Britain Marxist Leninist.

1705
01:31:42,160 --> 01:31:47,120
Speaker 1: Oh boy, they are fascinating. So basically so basically there

1706
01:31:47,280 --> 01:31:48,840
Speaker 1: was let me just let me just let me just

1707
01:31:48,880 --> 01:31:52,640
Speaker 1: refresh my memory. But like there was, um, there was

1708
01:31:52,680 --> 01:31:57,599
Speaker 1: a split from the from from CPGB a couple decades ago,

1709
01:31:57,640 --> 01:32:01,960
Speaker 1: I think where people were just like where where basically

1710
01:32:02,000 --> 01:32:03,360
Speaker 1: it was it was to do with the politics of

1711
01:32:03,400 --> 01:32:05,960
Speaker 1: like supporting North Korea, and like there was some Maoists

1712
01:32:06,040 --> 01:32:08,840
Speaker 1: involved and shit like this. Um, there are some people

1713
01:32:09,000 --> 01:32:12,439
Speaker 1: who involved who have done some like wild stuff in

1714
01:32:12,600 --> 01:32:17,120
Speaker 1: leftist terms, Like there was someone who was involved with

1715
01:32:17,200 --> 01:32:19,519
Speaker 1: the Spanish Civil War and then like moved to China

1716
01:32:19,600 --> 01:32:22,760
Speaker 1: and took like positions in Mao's government during the Cultural Revolution,

1717
01:32:23,360 --> 01:32:26,160
Speaker 1: like a boy who is like now, I think the

1718
01:32:26,920 --> 01:32:31,439
Speaker 1: Honorary President of CPGBML. That's um Isabel Crook. But basically

1719
01:32:31,479 --> 01:32:35,960
Speaker 1: what happened was um when the when cpgb kind of

1720
01:32:36,240 --> 01:32:38,920
Speaker 1: split apart in the sixties, one of the splinter groups

1721
01:32:39,000 --> 01:32:43,439
Speaker 1: was called the Revolutionary Marxist Leninist League and then and

1722
01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:48,080
Speaker 1: then that immediately splintered as well, and they and then

1723
01:32:48,160 --> 01:32:50,719
Speaker 1: they had a thing called the Association of Communist Workers

1724
01:32:51,000 --> 01:32:54,439
Speaker 1: and that was founded by Harpell bra Now this is

1725
01:32:55,280 --> 01:32:57,600
Speaker 1: bear in mind the Bras for a second b R

1726
01:32:57,680 --> 01:33:02,559
Speaker 1: A R because this is really interesting. So basically Harpell

1727
01:33:02,600 --> 01:33:07,559
Speaker 1: bra Um, Yeah, he's he's old as dirt now he's

1728
01:33:07,560 --> 01:33:10,960
Speaker 1: still kicking around. He does some like um like vaud

1729
01:33:11,120 --> 01:33:16,080
Speaker 1: chats with like everyone's favorite real definitely real communist Caleb

1730
01:33:16,160 --> 01:33:21,080
Speaker 1: morpen Um and the Bras because of their role in

1731
01:33:21,160 --> 01:33:24,120
Speaker 1: this like splinter group and then the founding of CPGBML,

1732
01:33:25,280 --> 01:33:29,640
Speaker 1: it's kind of like a dynastic family of communists. Like

1733
01:33:30,800 --> 01:33:33,240
Speaker 1: so Harpall Bra is the father of Joeti bra who's

1734
01:33:33,240 --> 01:33:38,040
Speaker 1: like a notorious tough communist and and like she isn't

1735
01:33:38,120 --> 01:33:43,280
Speaker 1: officially in charge of CpG BML, but like apparently nothing,

1736
01:33:43,560 --> 01:33:45,720
Speaker 1: nothing is allowed that goes against her. So it's like

1737
01:33:45,960 --> 01:33:51,920
Speaker 1: they've they've actually put a dynasty in place. Oh boy. Yeah. Um.

1738
01:33:52,240 --> 01:33:53,840
Speaker 1: But as I say, that's all, that's all part of

1739
01:33:53,880 --> 01:33:56,920
Speaker 1: the fact that like them, the older people in the

1740
01:33:57,040 --> 01:34:01,120
Speaker 1: UK are just like shockingly reactionary. It's good stuff. It's

1741
01:34:01,160 --> 01:34:04,160
Speaker 1: good stuff. Like they're trying to do like working class

1742
01:34:04,240 --> 01:34:07,720
Speaker 1: organizing around how much they hate trans people. It's really good.

1743
01:34:08,280 --> 01:34:12,120
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. I mean that's the one thing I'll say

1744
01:34:12,120 --> 01:34:15,960
Speaker 1: about the US, which is that like, like we don't

1745
01:34:16,080 --> 01:34:18,560
Speaker 1: have as many like there are lib Turfs, but like

1746
01:34:18,680 --> 01:34:23,400
Speaker 1: the lib Turfs don't really sort of like like that

1747
01:34:23,560 --> 01:34:28,080
Speaker 1: they're they're they're kind of walled off from like toism

1748
01:34:28,240 --> 01:34:31,000
Speaker 1: is a very British thing I don't like. I yeah,

1749
01:34:31,200 --> 01:34:32,840
Speaker 1: like I've seen Americans worry about it a lot. I

1750
01:34:32,880 --> 01:34:34,360
Speaker 1: don't think it's going to take off with you guys,

1751
01:34:35,160 --> 01:34:39,040
Speaker 1: because we have a politics of British exceptionalism, which is

1752
01:34:39,080 --> 01:34:42,280
Speaker 1: directly contrasted to US politics. Like it's very similar to

1753
01:34:42,400 --> 01:34:46,640
Speaker 1: like how can like Canadian liberals work where like everything

1754
01:34:47,240 --> 01:34:49,200
Speaker 1: every place where we can be progressive. We try to

1755
01:34:49,240 --> 01:34:51,400
Speaker 1: pride ourselves on not being as bad as the US,

1756
01:34:51,920 --> 01:34:56,639
Speaker 1: and so like the specter of the GOP not only

1757
01:34:56,760 --> 01:34:59,880
Speaker 1: like does not only do toffs literally receive money from

1758
01:35:00,080 --> 01:35:03,200
Speaker 1: far right evangelical Christian groups from the US, but like

1759
01:35:03,680 --> 01:35:07,080
Speaker 1: the fact that the GP, the GOP is there, gives

1760
01:35:07,160 --> 01:35:11,280
Speaker 1: like supposed feminists in the UK this cover to pretend

1761
01:35:11,320 --> 01:35:15,040
Speaker 1: they're still progressives because like this, they support abortion until

1762
01:35:15,080 --> 01:35:18,880
Speaker 1: the candidate comes along who hates trans people, who also

1763
01:35:18,960 --> 01:35:23,080
Speaker 1: wants to know to make abortion illegal. Um, I don't

1764
01:35:23,120 --> 01:35:25,559
Speaker 1: think that. I don't know, I could be proven wrong

1765
01:35:25,560 --> 01:35:28,160
Speaker 1: about this, but I don't think that, like, uh, turfs

1766
01:35:28,960 --> 01:35:30,680
Speaker 1: get a foothold in the US in the same way

1767
01:35:30,680 --> 01:35:35,280
Speaker 1: because you're like reactionaries just function a bit a bit differently,

1768
01:35:35,400 --> 01:35:40,080
Speaker 1: And like the trying to like, um, divide the progressive

1769
01:35:40,200 --> 01:35:43,760
Speaker 1: left with turfs is a very conscious strategy that's kind

1770
01:35:43,800 --> 01:35:47,960
Speaker 1: of like been designed and constructed for the UK, Like

1771
01:35:48,520 --> 01:35:52,360
Speaker 1: it's it's yeah, it's it's liberals who are like, we

1772
01:35:52,439 --> 01:35:54,960
Speaker 1: are so progressive because we're not the US, who are

1773
01:35:55,000 --> 01:35:58,120
Speaker 1: then amenable to tough talking points in the UK who

1774
01:35:58,160 --> 01:35:59,640
Speaker 1: are really really out of touch. And again there's like

1775
01:35:59,640 --> 01:36:03,360
Speaker 1: the general rational thing. But like I think that I

1776
01:36:03,479 --> 01:36:07,120
Speaker 1: think that tough Island will continue to be notoriously tough Island.

1777
01:36:07,240 --> 01:36:09,760
Speaker 1: Like I think that tough ism will continue to be

1778
01:36:09,840 --> 01:36:14,880
Speaker 1: a very very very British phenomenon. I have seen what

1779
01:36:14,880 --> 01:36:17,519
Speaker 1: you're talking about with like swafs in the US because like, yeah,

1780
01:36:17,720 --> 01:36:19,479
Speaker 1: I mean, I will say, like the other cultry I

1781
01:36:19,520 --> 01:36:22,639
Speaker 1: think is particularly really bad with this in Mexico has

1782
01:36:22,640 --> 01:36:26,480
Speaker 1: an enormous turf problem, like in ways that are incredibly

1783
01:36:26,560 --> 01:36:29,840
Speaker 1: dangerous for about this on this podcast. But yeah, it's

1784
01:36:30,120 --> 01:36:33,040
Speaker 1: very bleak. Um. Yeah, I don't know. The US, Yeah,

1785
01:36:33,080 --> 01:36:35,080
Speaker 1: the US, the dangers mostly from the far right and

1786
01:36:35,160 --> 01:36:38,120
Speaker 1: also from people like who who are like libs but

1787
01:36:38,200 --> 01:36:42,960
Speaker 1: who are like really like like I don't know, like

1788
01:36:43,040 --> 01:36:47,479
Speaker 1: New New York Times collaborator types. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I

1789
01:36:47,520 --> 01:36:50,040
Speaker 1: mean it's the same thing here we have like I

1790
01:36:50,040 --> 01:36:52,320
Speaker 1: don't know if you know the comedian Rob Delaney, Um,

1791
01:36:52,680 --> 01:36:54,680
Speaker 1: he's American, but he moved to the UK and he

1792
01:36:54,760 --> 01:36:57,520
Speaker 1: has been, you know, fighting for a long time alongside

1793
01:36:57,560 --> 01:37:00,800
Speaker 1: like union movements. I think he's like mostly a liberal,

1794
01:37:00,880 --> 01:37:02,439
Speaker 1: Like he calls himself a socialist, but I don't think

1795
01:37:02,520 --> 01:37:04,559
Speaker 1: he's I don't think he would call himself a communist

1796
01:37:04,640 --> 01:37:09,040
Speaker 1: or anything like this. Um, But like he said that

1797
01:37:09,080 --> 01:37:12,120
Speaker 1: when he moved to the UK, he was like, you're

1798
01:37:12,200 --> 01:37:15,680
Speaker 1: always pointing to American media by being like, look how

1799
01:37:15,720 --> 01:37:19,080
Speaker 1: bad Fox News is, but truly every outlet of the

1800
01:37:19,200 --> 01:37:25,000
Speaker 1: UK media is Fox News, Like yeah, yeah, the UK

1801
01:37:25,200 --> 01:37:28,080
Speaker 1: media is like somehow more fucked than the American media,

1802
01:37:28,080 --> 01:37:30,320
Speaker 1: which really amazing. That has to do with that, that

1803
01:37:30,479 --> 01:37:34,120
Speaker 1: that that that ties in really strongly with out without

1804
01:37:34,120 --> 01:37:37,760
Speaker 1: a tradition of I was gonna say the lovable public

1805
01:37:37,840 --> 01:37:41,840
Speaker 1: nonsens again, No, that's not it. The bad thing, the

1806
01:37:41,920 --> 01:37:45,280
Speaker 1: evil thing, Tony Blair there it is, um Yeah, Tony

1807
01:37:45,360 --> 01:37:48,280
Speaker 1: Blair was so close with Rupert Murdoch that he literally

1808
01:37:48,320 --> 01:37:51,400
Speaker 1: fucked Rupertmodock's wife. He's literally like she's the godfather of

1809
01:37:51,600 --> 01:37:54,200
Speaker 1: Rupertmodock's kids or the other way around. I remember, like

1810
01:37:54,439 --> 01:37:56,519
Speaker 1: he is he is like that with Rupert. There's a

1811
01:37:56,520 --> 01:38:00,439
Speaker 1: famous picture of like Blair reading the Sun and fuck

1812
01:38:00,520 --> 01:38:04,639
Speaker 1: the Sun reading the Sun newspaper and like the headline

1813
01:38:04,720 --> 01:38:08,720
Speaker 1: is like we love Blair or whatever. Sidebar. Briefly, my

1814
01:38:08,840 --> 01:38:11,000
Speaker 1: uncle died in the Hillsborough disaster. If people aren't familiar

1815
01:38:11,000 --> 01:38:13,760
Speaker 1: with that, I explained the whole thing. But like the

1816
01:38:14,240 --> 01:38:18,920
Speaker 1: passion with which I want the Sun newspaper destroyed in

1817
01:38:19,000 --> 01:38:22,439
Speaker 1: the most literal sense possible, Yeah, fucking come and arrest me.

1818
01:38:22,520 --> 01:38:24,400
Speaker 1: I will I will stand up in court and say

1819
01:38:25,320 --> 01:38:28,200
Speaker 1: this is on behalf of my goddamn family. I am

1820
01:38:28,200 --> 01:38:34,080
Speaker 1: allowed to have this opinion. But but like the way

1821
01:38:34,160 --> 01:38:36,240
Speaker 1: that like new Labor was able to tie it all

1822
01:38:36,360 --> 01:38:40,240
Speaker 1: together as this, like the progressive newspapers and the reactionary newspapers,

1823
01:38:40,280 --> 01:38:45,160
Speaker 1: it's all working for the ruling class, and then like neoliberalism,

1824
01:38:46,000 --> 01:38:48,720
Speaker 1: you know, benefits them enormously. So like we have where

1825
01:38:48,800 --> 01:38:52,040
Speaker 1: before we had the kind of faintest illusion of their

1826
01:38:52,080 --> 01:38:54,559
Speaker 1: being like a left wing media and a right wing media.

1827
01:38:55,000 --> 01:38:57,040
Speaker 1: Now it's like there's the ruling class media, and then

1828
01:38:57,080 --> 01:39:01,720
Speaker 1: there are like tiny, tiny, tiny independent leftist media sources. Right,

1829
01:39:01,760 --> 01:39:05,800
Speaker 1: there's like yeah YouTubers like me. There's like Novara Media,

1830
01:39:06,200 --> 01:39:11,400
Speaker 1: there's Owen Joey. Yeah, they're like they're like Trotskyites, like

1831
01:39:11,720 --> 01:39:14,920
Speaker 1: making newspapers to fund their like well mostly to fund

1832
01:39:14,960 --> 01:39:18,080
Speaker 1: making more newspapers, to be honest, but like you know, um,

1833
01:39:18,880 --> 01:39:20,920
Speaker 1: you know, and and they're they're just these tiny little

1834
01:39:20,960 --> 01:39:23,759
Speaker 1: crumbs and the rest of the media is just fucking

1835
01:39:24,000 --> 01:39:26,479
Speaker 1: dog shit to the point where like it's actually quite funny,

1836
01:39:26,520 --> 01:39:28,559
Speaker 1: Like it's gotten to the point where they're complacent because

1837
01:39:28,600 --> 01:39:31,400
Speaker 1: they're so not used to dealing with anything that represents

1838
01:39:31,439 --> 01:39:34,760
Speaker 1: the working class that they like. They recently had Mike Lynch,

1839
01:39:34,840 --> 01:39:38,280
Speaker 1: the head of the RMT union, on a bunch of

1840
01:39:38,400 --> 01:39:41,400
Speaker 1: different like UK talk shows where they were they were

1841
01:39:41,479 --> 01:39:43,920
Speaker 1: expecting to be able to like gotcha him with the

1842
01:39:44,160 --> 01:39:48,240
Speaker 1: most transparent bullshit m Yeah. Richard Madley said to him, like,

1843
01:39:48,720 --> 01:39:52,080
Speaker 1: what about the spirit of Christmas, your stripes ability to

1844
01:39:52,280 --> 01:39:54,120
Speaker 1: go home and see their family? And he was like,

1845
01:39:54,640 --> 01:39:57,600
Speaker 1: what about workers getting paid better? Dick head? And it

1846
01:39:57,760 --> 01:40:00,320
Speaker 1: was just like it was just like game over me really,

1847
01:40:00,439 --> 01:40:02,400
Speaker 1: like they are so not used to talking to anyone

1848
01:40:02,439 --> 01:40:04,479
Speaker 1: who cares about the working class that when someone like

1849
01:40:04,600 --> 01:40:08,040
Speaker 1: it just not even an especially radical just like a

1850
01:40:08,160 --> 01:40:11,599
Speaker 1: union leader comes on to their show, he just owns them,

1851
01:40:11,680 --> 01:40:15,840
Speaker 1: like he just butts that goddamn biscuits like it's it's amazing. Yeah.

1852
01:40:15,880 --> 01:40:17,880
Speaker 1: We we had this with the rail strike. We're like,

1853
01:40:18,360 --> 01:40:20,040
Speaker 1: I remember, how was it businesses that are it was

1854
01:40:20,120 --> 01:40:22,280
Speaker 1: it was one of the business press guys had had

1855
01:40:22,360 --> 01:40:24,560
Speaker 1: someone they were like they were talking to like a

1856
01:40:24,680 --> 01:40:28,640
Speaker 1: rail worker. Yeah, and you can see on air this

1857
01:40:28,920 --> 01:40:31,920
Speaker 1: guy realizing that these people have zero days off a

1858
01:40:32,000 --> 01:40:35,439
Speaker 1: year and going what the fuck? Yeah. Yeah, sort of

1859
01:40:35,560 --> 01:40:37,559
Speaker 1: like like even even the like business class guys were

1860
01:40:37,600 --> 01:40:40,400
Speaker 1: like wait, hold on, like what do you mean you

1861
01:40:40,479 --> 01:40:43,760
Speaker 1: have zero days off a year? Like what It's like, Yeah,

1862
01:40:44,120 --> 01:40:46,960
Speaker 1: there's like a human empathy that like that they are

1863
01:40:47,000 --> 01:40:49,320
Speaker 1: not expecting to be a problem for them because like

1864
01:40:49,479 --> 01:40:53,240
Speaker 1: they're all parasitic fucking goals. And then like they come

1865
01:40:53,280 --> 01:40:55,720
Speaker 1: into contact but that they've been lied to about the

1866
01:40:56,080 --> 01:40:58,360
Speaker 1: lives that the working classes have to live. Yeah, and

1867
01:40:58,400 --> 01:40:59,920
Speaker 1: then a working class class and comes on and just

1868
01:41:00,080 --> 01:41:02,559
Speaker 1: tells them like, oh no, it's like this, and they're like, oh,

1869
01:41:03,160 --> 01:41:06,760
Speaker 1: we should do something about the Yeah. It's like yeah,

1870
01:41:06,800 --> 01:41:08,240
Speaker 1: And that's sort of like I don't know that that's

1871
01:41:08,280 --> 01:41:10,080
Speaker 1: that's sort of that sort of shield, Like it's kind

1872
01:41:10,080 --> 01:41:14,720
Speaker 1: of the kind of installation that gets built up just yeah,

1873
01:41:15,040 --> 01:41:18,519
Speaker 1: do you do you have anything else you want to say? Stuff?

1874
01:41:19,520 --> 01:41:26,040
Speaker 1: Fuck the police? Uh um, listen to Red Planet. Yeah, okay,

1875
01:41:26,040 --> 01:41:28,280
Speaker 1: I'm plugging stuff. I'm going to say I'm spy from US.

1876
01:41:28,360 --> 01:41:31,759
Speaker 1: I make video essays on YouTube about politics, philosophy, sometimes

1877
01:41:31,760 --> 01:41:35,479
Speaker 1: about media. I did a little bit of about Yay

1878
01:41:35,720 --> 01:41:38,000
Speaker 1: going on info Wars and all his anti semitism and stuff.

1879
01:41:38,040 --> 01:41:41,720
Speaker 1: Pretty recently, I'm doing something about climate doumerism and how

1880
01:41:41,760 --> 01:41:43,920
Speaker 1: I believe that the world is not ending. It's just

1881
01:41:44,200 --> 01:41:47,200
Speaker 1: the collapse of the imperial core. And people are projecting

1882
01:41:47,720 --> 01:41:53,760
Speaker 1: the inability to get Starbucks and Deliverux as the apocalypse. Um,

1883
01:41:54,600 --> 01:41:56,560
Speaker 1: that should be out sometime soon ish. But what I

1884
01:41:56,640 --> 01:41:59,080
Speaker 1: really want you it could happen here. Listener to check

1885
01:41:59,120 --> 01:42:01,200
Speaker 1: out is Red Planet because I think you'll really like it.

1886
01:42:01,479 --> 01:42:05,400
Speaker 1: It's a it's a weekly leftist round table where we

1887
01:42:05,479 --> 01:42:07,599
Speaker 1: talked about how to make the world a better place. Um,

1888
01:42:08,280 --> 01:42:10,920
Speaker 1: it's every Sunday eight pm to eleven pm UK time.

1889
01:42:11,640 --> 01:42:13,640
Speaker 1: Please Google to figure out what that is for you.

1890
01:42:13,960 --> 01:42:16,360
Speaker 1: It's on Twitch dot tv slash red Planet Live, and

1891
01:42:16,479 --> 01:42:18,000
Speaker 1: we also have a podcast feed if you want to

1892
01:42:18,000 --> 01:42:21,120
Speaker 1: catch up on all the archive. Episodes should be available

1893
01:42:21,520 --> 01:42:24,960
Speaker 1: wherever podcasts are sold. Um, it's called Red Planet, and

1894
01:42:25,040 --> 01:42:27,960
Speaker 1: it's a good time. And we also, I mean we

1895
01:42:28,040 --> 01:42:30,200
Speaker 1: have a lot of we have some some some solid

1896
01:42:30,240 --> 01:42:32,080
Speaker 1: overlap where it could happen to year. Actually, we recently

1897
01:42:32,120 --> 01:42:36,720
Speaker 1: interviewed maya crime you as well, so you know, if

1898
01:42:36,760 --> 01:42:38,720
Speaker 1: you want to content, we had a good chat with

1899
01:42:38,880 --> 01:42:42,439
Speaker 1: that and I can't imagine you don't because she's delightful,

1900
01:42:43,920 --> 01:42:49,080
Speaker 1: wonder wonderful person, wonderful, wonderful little kitty cat. Uh yeah,

1901
01:42:49,200 --> 01:42:50,840
Speaker 1: this has been It can happen here. You can find

1902
01:42:50,920 --> 01:42:53,320
Speaker 1: us in the places. You can wage a tonal war

1903
01:42:53,360 --> 01:42:57,120
Speaker 1: against the British imperialist ruling class. You can do this

1904
01:42:57,400 --> 01:43:00,920
Speaker 1: from your home. Yep, I've cool. I've been, Sophie. I've

1905
01:43:00,920 --> 01:43:03,360
Speaker 1: been playing with a Browning three six four switch blade,

1906
01:43:04,080 --> 01:43:05,920
Speaker 1: only in my house where it is legal to have it.

1907
01:43:07,880 --> 01:43:10,479
Speaker 1: And I apologize again to Daniel for all the clicking noises.

1908
01:43:26,920 --> 01:43:30,880
Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome. It could happen here once again,

1909
01:43:30,960 --> 01:43:35,920
Speaker 1: hosted by myself Andrew along with the rest of the crew,

1910
01:43:37,240 --> 01:43:41,320
Speaker 1: Mea and James. All right, and today I want to

1911
01:43:41,360 --> 01:43:44,640
Speaker 1: take a minute to talk about Ubuntu, and not the

1912
01:43:45,160 --> 01:43:51,920
Speaker 1: Linux software, but the African philosophy. Ubuntu is philosophical concepts

1913
01:43:52,040 --> 01:43:54,280
Speaker 1: for those who don't know, derived from some of the

1914
01:43:54,400 --> 01:43:58,800
Speaker 1: diverse and disposed indigenous traditions of the roughly three hundred

1915
01:43:58,840 --> 01:44:02,880
Speaker 1: and sixty million and band To speaking peoples of Africa. Bantu,

1916
01:44:03,000 --> 01:44:05,639
Speaker 1: coming from the Zulu wood for people, is a language

1917
01:44:05,640 --> 01:44:08,800
Speaker 1: family spoken by approximately four hundred distinct ethnic groups and

1918
01:44:08,920 --> 01:44:13,200
Speaker 1: splinter approximately four hundred and forty six eighty distinct languages

1919
01:44:13,240 --> 01:44:16,080
Speaker 1: slash dialects born as a result of the great band

1920
01:44:16,120 --> 01:44:18,960
Speaker 1: to migrations that I could in two major waves about

1921
01:44:19,040 --> 01:44:21,800
Speaker 1: three thousand and two thousand years ago across Central, East

1922
01:44:21,920 --> 01:44:30,280
Speaker 1: and South Africa. Contrary to the maxim I think. Therefore,

1923
01:44:30,439 --> 01:44:36,320
Speaker 1: I am Ubuntu, roughly translated from the Guni Bantu languages

1924
01:44:36,439 --> 01:44:42,040
Speaker 1: like Osa and Zulu, means humanity and more specifically humanity

1925
01:44:42,120 --> 01:44:48,880
Speaker 1: towards others. I am because you are. There are of course,

1926
01:44:49,000 --> 01:44:51,840
Speaker 1: various names to the concept from language to language and

1927
01:44:51,920 --> 01:44:57,679
Speaker 1: ethnic group to ethnic group, including Boto, Muntu, Mundu, Batu, Utu, etc.

1928
01:44:58,479 --> 01:45:02,760
Speaker 1: But Ubuntu is definitely the mo was prominent and internationally recognized.

1929
01:45:03,800 --> 01:45:07,439
Speaker 1: According to the African Journal of Social Work, Buntu is

1930
01:45:07,800 --> 01:45:11,719
Speaker 1: a collection of values and practices the people of Africa

1931
01:45:11,960 --> 01:45:16,880
Speaker 1: or of African origin view as making people authentic human beings. Rather,

1932
01:45:17,000 --> 01:45:20,439
Speaker 1: nuances of these values and practices vary across different ethnic groups,

1933
01:45:20,760 --> 01:45:23,880
Speaker 1: they all point to one thing. An authentic individual human

1934
01:45:23,920 --> 01:45:30,120
Speaker 1: being is part of a larger and more significant relational, communal, societal, environmental,

1935
01:45:30,320 --> 01:45:35,520
Speaker 1: and spiritual world. This, of course, is not unique to Africa.

1936
01:45:36,640 --> 01:45:39,800
Speaker 1: What's any specific culture or any specific ethnic group. I

1937
01:45:39,880 --> 01:45:44,080
Speaker 1: think we're finally sort of mirroring ideas in a variety

1938
01:45:44,160 --> 01:45:46,599
Speaker 1: of contexts, because I think it really is something that's

1939
01:45:46,600 --> 01:45:51,720
Speaker 1: fundamentally human. But I think it is good to look

1940
01:45:51,760 --> 01:45:57,240
Speaker 1: at how these ideas have manifested in those more specific contexts.

1941
01:45:58,200 --> 01:46:03,200
Speaker 1: I mean, in the aura literature of South Africa with

1942
01:46:03,320 --> 01:46:06,879
Speaker 1: Buon Tursman existence. From as early as the mid nineteenth century,

1943
01:46:08,840 --> 01:46:12,200
Speaker 1: the reported translations for the term have covered the field

1944
01:46:12,280 --> 01:46:17,760
Speaker 1: of human nature, humanness, humanity, virtue, goodness, and kindness, and

1945
01:46:17,880 --> 01:46:20,080
Speaker 1: so it's meant to be a sort of a parallel

1946
01:46:20,240 --> 01:46:25,080
Speaker 1: to the abstract idea of humanity as a philosophy or

1947
01:46:25,160 --> 01:46:29,200
Speaker 1: as a world view. Of Puntu really was popularized in

1948
01:46:29,240 --> 01:46:31,880
Speaker 1: the beginning of the nineteen fifties, most of them being

1949
01:46:31,920 --> 01:46:35,280
Speaker 1: the writings of Jordan Cushion Gabane published in the African

1950
01:46:35,400 --> 01:46:40,360
Speaker 1: Drum magazine. From then into the nineteen seventies, bunt began

1951
01:46:40,400 --> 01:46:45,200
Speaker 1: to be used as a specific form of African humanism, because,

1952
01:46:45,240 --> 01:46:47,479
Speaker 1: of course, in that sixties and seventies period you had

1953
01:46:47,880 --> 01:46:53,160
Speaker 1: a lot of afrocentric and pan African and black power

1954
01:46:53,320 --> 01:46:59,479
Speaker 1: ideas coming to prominence around the world. This is, of

1955
01:46:59,560 --> 01:47:03,880
Speaker 1: course all so coincided with the period of decolonization, or

1956
01:47:03,960 --> 01:47:07,479
Speaker 1: rather formal political independence was taken place in nineteen sixties,

1957
01:47:08,400 --> 01:47:14,439
Speaker 1: and this desire for these newly independent countries to pursue Africanization,

1958
01:47:15,120 --> 01:47:18,480
Speaker 1: to sort of let go of some of the symbolic

1959
01:47:18,680 --> 01:47:22,439
Speaker 1: aspects of colonial rule. Of course, that process has not

1960
01:47:22,760 --> 01:47:26,839
Speaker 1: really been completes and in many ways the post colonial

1961
01:47:26,920 --> 01:47:33,080
Speaker 1: status is equivalent to the colonial status. But in some

1962
01:47:33,240 --> 01:47:39,320
Speaker 1: ways some leaders were trying to pursue sort of a

1963
01:47:39,439 --> 01:47:44,639
Speaker 1: new African specific humanism as a philosophy for the Bushoning

1964
01:47:44,680 --> 01:47:46,960
Speaker 1: countries at the time. This is a part of the

1965
01:47:47,000 --> 01:47:49,720
Speaker 1: episode where we tell everyone to read Fano again. Of

1966
01:47:49,840 --> 01:47:54,639
Speaker 1: course read Fano and reads is there? But I found

1967
01:47:54,680 --> 01:47:58,120
Speaker 1: interested is that this this term Buntu's idea of Ubuntu

1968
01:47:58,479 --> 01:48:03,880
Speaker 1: particularly found it's It was basically picked up in Zimbabwe

1969
01:48:04,640 --> 01:48:09,439
Speaker 1: and in South Africa in a very specific context where

1970
01:48:10,760 --> 01:48:15,519
Speaker 1: there was a transition to majority rule. In nineteen eighty,

1971
01:48:16,680 --> 01:48:20,760
Speaker 1: ubuntu Ism or hun who is um was presented as

1972
01:48:20,800 --> 01:48:27,080
Speaker 1: the political ideology of newly independent Zimbabwe. A guy named

1973
01:48:27,160 --> 01:48:35,519
Speaker 1: Stan lack Ajwt Sam Kange published treatise basically on hun

1974
01:48:35,520 --> 01:48:39,560
Speaker 1: who is Ambunduism or zimbabwe Indigenous political philosophy, and he

1975
01:48:39,760 --> 01:48:46,599
Speaker 1: was basically trying to outline what the three major maxims

1976
01:48:46,680 --> 01:48:49,280
Speaker 1: that she this philosophy should be. Of course, I would

1977
01:48:49,360 --> 01:48:54,960
Speaker 1: note that his interpretation being a statesman was notably hierarchical,

1978
01:48:55,760 --> 01:48:58,599
Speaker 1: but for the reasons I will go into a bit later,

1979
01:48:58,800 --> 01:49:03,240
Speaker 1: I don't believe that makes the core of unto necessarily hierarchical.

1980
01:49:04,439 --> 01:49:06,320
Speaker 1: But the three maxims that he had in mind for

1981
01:49:06,720 --> 01:49:09,560
Speaker 1: Untuism or who who is um was that to be

1982
01:49:09,720 --> 01:49:13,479
Speaker 1: human is to affirm one's humanity by recognizing humanity of others,

1983
01:49:13,960 --> 01:49:17,920
Speaker 1: and on that basis establish in respectful human relations with them.

1984
01:49:18,600 --> 01:49:21,360
Speaker 1: The second maxim means that if and when one is

1985
01:49:21,439 --> 01:49:24,439
Speaker 1: faced with a decisive choice between wealth and the preservation

1986
01:49:24,479 --> 01:49:26,760
Speaker 1: of life of another human being, that one should up

1987
01:49:26,760 --> 01:49:29,759
Speaker 1: for the preservation of life. And then the third maxim

1988
01:49:32,240 --> 01:49:36,280
Speaker 1: says that the king owed his status, including all the

1989
01:49:36,280 --> 01:49:38,599
Speaker 1: powers associated with it, to the will of the people

1990
01:49:38,720 --> 01:49:42,320
Speaker 1: under him. As I think that's where you get most

1991
01:49:42,360 --> 01:49:47,600
Speaker 1: prominently the sense of hierarchy that would pervade Cittain interpretations

1992
01:49:48,080 --> 01:49:51,160
Speaker 1: of UBUNTU, This idea of a sort of a benevolent

1993
01:49:51,400 --> 01:49:56,759
Speaker 1: rulership that these benevolent statesmen and kings and prime ministers

1994
01:49:56,800 --> 01:50:01,280
Speaker 1: of presidents that they would they were just exercising the

1995
01:50:01,320 --> 01:50:02,840
Speaker 1: will of the people. And of course this is a

1996
01:50:03,080 --> 01:50:13,400
Speaker 1: mythology that is interpreting, reinterpreted across various different regimes. In

1997
01:50:13,520 --> 01:50:16,439
Speaker 1: South Africa, in the nineteen nineties, boon two as a

1998
01:50:16,600 --> 01:50:20,000
Speaker 1: concept was used as sort of a guiding ideal for

1999
01:50:20,120 --> 01:50:22,040
Speaker 1: the transition from a part time to majority rule. I

2000
01:50:22,120 --> 01:50:26,960
Speaker 1: think around this time is when the international community started

2001
01:50:27,000 --> 01:50:31,120
Speaker 1: to hear more about the term ubun two, particularly as

2002
01:50:31,160 --> 01:50:33,840
Speaker 1: it appears in the epilogue of the Interim Constitution of

2003
01:50:33,880 --> 01:50:38,040
Speaker 1: South Africa published nineteen ninety three. There's a need for understanding,

2004
01:50:38,120 --> 01:50:40,880
Speaker 1: but not for vengeance, a need for reparation but not

2005
01:50:41,000 --> 01:50:43,880
Speaker 1: for retaliation. I need for uboon two, but not for

2006
01:50:44,160 --> 01:50:50,240
Speaker 1: victimization end quote. Of course, as we see in South

2007
01:50:50,280 --> 01:50:57,720
Speaker 1: Africa today, that didn't play out very well. The understanding

2008
01:50:57,840 --> 01:51:04,000
Speaker 1: has not reached that points, reparations has not fully been achieved. Um.

2009
01:51:04,200 --> 01:51:09,840
Speaker 1: And there's a I would say distinct lack of ubuntu. Yeah,

2010
01:51:09,840 --> 01:51:12,760
Speaker 1: they kind of brought in Bank of America instead, which

2011
01:51:13,479 --> 01:51:17,640
Speaker 1: it didn't go great. Right, Yeah, they do. It's very um,

2012
01:51:18,040 --> 01:51:22,559
Speaker 1: it's very big. In Kinya Rwanda, Ubu Muntu I think. Um,

2013
01:51:22,960 --> 01:51:25,840
Speaker 1: but like you'll see the phrase or that that were

2014
01:51:25,880 --> 01:51:27,760
Speaker 1: a lot around Rwanda, and like if you go to

2015
01:51:27,840 --> 01:51:32,439
Speaker 1: the Kigali Genocide Memorial Museum, you'll see it a lot there, right,

2016
01:51:32,560 --> 01:51:37,799
Speaker 1: Like that is the country that has with some authoritarian issues,

2017
01:51:38,000 --> 01:51:42,639
Speaker 1: like has quite aside the differences which would previously allowed

2018
01:51:42,680 --> 01:51:46,679
Speaker 1: the genocide to happen. I guess that's fair to say. Yes, yes,

2019
01:51:47,960 --> 01:51:51,960
Speaker 1: that's what the Tutsi and the Hutu. Yeah, yeah, and

2020
01:51:52,080 --> 01:51:56,400
Speaker 1: the tire you often get missed out. Um yeah, but

2021
01:51:56,640 --> 01:52:00,760
Speaker 1: yeah they Yeah, that's actually yeah, terrible terrible thing. If

2022
01:52:01,120 --> 01:52:04,160
Speaker 1: people ever go to Rwanda, would highly recommend going to Rwanda,

2023
01:52:04,280 --> 01:52:06,760
Speaker 1: Like the Kigali genos erb or a museum is an

2024
01:52:07,200 --> 01:52:11,120
Speaker 1: important thing. It's a very very well curated museum of Yeah,

2025
01:52:11,160 --> 01:52:14,120
Speaker 1: like you said, a terrible terrible thing that happened in

2026
01:52:14,360 --> 01:52:19,559
Speaker 1: South Africa. The transition to democracy and announcement Dal's presidency

2027
01:52:19,560 --> 01:52:22,800
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty four, like I said, really brought the

2028
01:52:22,960 --> 01:52:28,960
Speaker 1: term to more well known outside the use and one

2029
01:52:28,960 --> 01:52:32,200
Speaker 1: of the people who was a main main proponent of

2030
01:52:32,320 --> 01:52:36,000
Speaker 1: that was Desmond Tutu, who was the chairman of the

2031
01:52:36,160 --> 01:52:43,639
Speaker 1: South Africa and Truth and Reconciliation Commission and also a preacher.

2032
01:52:44,400 --> 01:52:51,040
Speaker 1: He sort of advocated a Ubuntu theology that was really

2033
01:52:51,120 --> 01:52:56,320
Speaker 1: formative in the development of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

2034
01:53:01,439 --> 01:53:04,360
Speaker 1: He sort of moved the idea of Untu from simply

2035
01:53:04,479 --> 01:53:07,439
Speaker 1: an African philosophy based on African values or community and

2036
01:53:07,520 --> 01:53:12,080
Speaker 1: kinship to Christian values and identity with the Creator God.

2037
01:53:14,320 --> 01:53:16,320
Speaker 1: It was a sort of a strategy in an attempt

2038
01:53:16,360 --> 01:53:19,960
Speaker 1: to recover from the pains and brokenness of apartheid, you know,

2039
01:53:20,400 --> 01:53:24,400
Speaker 1: anchoring Uuntu into these into the Christian ideals of forgiveness

2040
01:53:24,560 --> 01:53:30,160
Speaker 1: and reconciliation as gifts from God for peaceful communal coexistence.

2041
01:53:33,040 --> 01:53:40,120
Speaker 1: And I hopefully not being tweet offensive when I say

2042
01:53:40,200 --> 01:53:45,000
Speaker 1: this to me, that's a quintessential example of how Christian

2043
01:53:45,040 --> 01:53:50,880
Speaker 1: pacification hampers to colonization efforts, because I've seen often that

2044
01:53:51,160 --> 01:53:55,320
Speaker 1: Christian notion of forgiveness and reconciliation two ins the blame

2045
01:53:55,400 --> 01:53:59,439
Speaker 1: onto the victims for not forgiven and expects little to

2046
01:53:59,520 --> 01:54:04,280
Speaker 1: nothing from the offender Excepaian and apology offense, not even

2047
01:54:04,280 --> 01:54:07,880
Speaker 1: any restitution or reparations. And so for all the talk

2048
01:54:07,920 --> 01:54:14,439
Speaker 1: of Ubuntu theological Ubuntu and otherwise situations, South Africa is

2049
01:54:14,479 --> 01:54:18,040
Speaker 1: still very much whack. And I think that that idea

2050
01:54:18,240 --> 01:54:20,920
Speaker 1: that oh well this is is in the past, it's over,

2051
01:54:21,439 --> 01:54:25,920
Speaker 1: get over it kind of thing is problematic, and it's

2052
01:54:26,360 --> 01:54:27,720
Speaker 1: so then it needs to be resolved the things so

2053
01:54:27,800 --> 01:54:31,360
Speaker 1: that the colonization is going to take place. Right, So,

2054
01:54:31,520 --> 01:54:37,360
Speaker 1: putting aside the theological applications some one problematic theological applications,

2055
01:54:37,880 --> 01:54:41,240
Speaker 1: the UBUNTU wild view is echoed in some senses worldwide,

2056
01:54:41,640 --> 01:54:45,000
Speaker 1: you know, social ecology when vv or mutually all these

2057
01:54:45,120 --> 01:54:50,080
Speaker 1: concepts point to our interconnected us as people and really

2058
01:54:50,120 --> 01:54:52,520
Speaker 1: point to the interconnectness that we have as people that

2059
01:54:52,640 --> 01:54:57,640
Speaker 1: our systems I'm certainly not built to support. We say

2060
01:54:57,680 --> 01:55:00,560
Speaker 1: that we see that in capitalism, you know, and doesn't

2061
01:55:00,560 --> 01:55:03,240
Speaker 1: embrace the interconnectness of all people. It places us in

2062
01:55:03,280 --> 01:55:07,200
Speaker 1: opposition with another. It atomizes us, it individualizes us. It

2063
01:55:07,280 --> 01:55:11,120
Speaker 1: alienates us from people, from ourselves and from others, so

2064
01:55:11,320 --> 01:55:16,400
Speaker 1: we must compete and stuff for the sake of survival. Alienation,

2065
01:55:16,640 --> 01:55:19,840
Speaker 1: of course, in a capitalist contexts referring to our separation

2066
01:55:20,000 --> 01:55:22,960
Speaker 1: of our abilities from ourselves, making us into the mere

2067
01:55:23,040 --> 01:55:27,040
Speaker 1: tools for the use and benefit of our bosses. I know,

2068
01:55:27,120 --> 01:55:29,480
Speaker 1: the workplace is definitely not something that we have. Is

2069
01:55:30,160 --> 01:55:33,120
Speaker 1: that it is based on mutual aid or woundtu you know,

2070
01:55:34,080 --> 01:55:37,160
Speaker 1: rather than working together, working harmoniously, having access to the

2071
01:55:37,200 --> 01:55:42,480
Speaker 1: means of production and sharing in an equally place, in

2072
01:55:42,560 --> 01:55:48,880
Speaker 1: situation of a feud, of competition, of struggling constantly and

2073
01:55:49,080 --> 01:55:54,320
Speaker 1: being squeezed and wrung out for whatever our bosses can

2074
01:55:54,440 --> 01:55:59,880
Speaker 1: get from us. Yeah, it's when you said, like earlier,

2075
01:56:00,120 --> 01:56:03,360
Speaker 1: that one of the key tenants was right, Like recognizing

2076
01:56:03,440 --> 01:56:06,640
Speaker 1: humanity and other people affirms your own humanity. And I

2077
01:56:06,720 --> 01:56:09,720
Speaker 1: might be paraphrasing that, but like that's exactly what capitalism

2078
01:56:09,800 --> 01:56:13,200
Speaker 1: doesn't do. It just sees people as like a tool

2079
01:56:13,320 --> 01:56:16,240
Speaker 1: to create more capital, to create more more income. Like

2080
01:56:16,480 --> 01:56:20,400
Speaker 1: it doesn't recognize humanity. It sees you as a means,

2081
01:56:20,480 --> 01:56:23,760
Speaker 1: not an ends, right exactly, And I mean unlike in

2082
01:56:23,800 --> 01:56:26,680
Speaker 1: a communal system where your service to others, you know,

2083
01:56:26,760 --> 01:56:31,040
Speaker 1: it's mutual, it's reciprocal, it's voluntary. We find ourselves in

2084
01:56:31,080 --> 01:56:33,800
Speaker 1: a situation where we must give away our labor, our time,

2085
01:56:33,840 --> 01:56:36,720
Speaker 1: and really our whole lives just to survive. But that

2086
01:56:37,160 --> 01:56:41,520
Speaker 1: giving is not done out of the goodness of our

2087
01:56:41,560 --> 01:56:45,680
Speaker 1: hearts or or as part of a system, a sort

2088
01:56:45,720 --> 01:56:49,880
Speaker 1: of a network of supports, a safety nets or anything.

2089
01:56:49,960 --> 01:56:55,480
Speaker 1: It's just clawing towards survival, you know, disconnected from the

2090
01:56:55,560 --> 01:56:59,760
Speaker 1: well being of the whole. Yeah, very much. Everything around

2091
01:56:59,880 --> 01:57:04,040
Speaker 1: us has been you know, manufactured, it's been transport, has

2092
01:57:04,080 --> 01:57:08,400
Speaker 1: been assembled and sold by other people, right, people just

2093
01:57:08,640 --> 01:57:13,040
Speaker 1: like us, workers, just like us. M Those people have

2094
01:57:13,280 --> 01:57:15,720
Speaker 1: lives just like our words. They have all the same

2095
01:57:15,760 --> 01:57:20,280
Speaker 1: struggles that we do. But instead of relating to these people,

2096
01:57:20,520 --> 01:57:23,920
Speaker 1: instead of freely sharing the fruit to our labor, relating

2097
01:57:23,960 --> 01:57:25,880
Speaker 1: to the things that we have to buy, or we

2098
01:57:25,920 --> 01:57:29,200
Speaker 1: don't see the work in people behind them. Yeah. I

2099
01:57:29,320 --> 01:57:33,040
Speaker 1: think another aspect of it is that which I find

2100
01:57:33,080 --> 01:57:35,440
Speaker 1: particularly strange about, you know, the hundhu is Am or

2101
01:57:35,520 --> 01:57:42,720
Speaker 1: Buntoism that some Kang was trying to advocate, is that

2102
01:57:42,800 --> 01:57:48,240
Speaker 1: I don't believe that UBUNTU or mutual lead, or any

2103
01:57:48,240 --> 01:57:50,960
Speaker 1: of the principles that are Bunto exposes is something that

2104
01:57:51,080 --> 01:57:54,720
Speaker 1: this stage is compatible with. M I don't think this

2105
01:57:54,760 --> 01:57:57,920
Speaker 1: STA is compatible with the acknowledgment of one's responsibility to

2106
01:57:58,000 --> 01:58:01,360
Speaker 1: their fellow humans and the world around them. You know,

2107
01:58:01,400 --> 01:58:05,720
Speaker 1: the state has built an exclusion on domination and deprivation

2108
01:58:05,800 --> 01:58:09,400
Speaker 1: and the hierarchical division of the state, generating this sort

2109
01:58:09,400 --> 01:58:12,800
Speaker 1: of inequality and decision making power and influencing about over

2110
01:58:12,800 --> 01:58:18,920
Speaker 1: own affairs. It's about depriving certain people and elevating others,

2111
01:58:20,120 --> 01:58:22,320
Speaker 1: whereas UBUNTU is supposed to be about the importance of

2112
01:58:22,400 --> 01:58:24,720
Speaker 1: the humanity of both the individual in the community and

2113
01:58:24,840 --> 01:58:29,920
Speaker 1: about how all people are connected in a way that

2114
01:58:30,560 --> 01:58:33,640
Speaker 1: is meant to support and add to and contribute and

2115
01:58:34,680 --> 01:58:40,560
Speaker 1: clean and service one another. If that makes sense. You

2116
01:58:40,600 --> 01:58:43,880
Speaker 1: don't like the idea of this sort of community where

2117
01:58:43,920 --> 01:58:48,120
Speaker 1: everyone is giving and sharing and taking and everybody has

2118
01:58:48,160 --> 01:58:53,320
Speaker 1: something to contribute to this human whole. I feel like

2119
01:58:53,400 --> 01:58:57,440
Speaker 1: there's something that's lost when that whole is disrupted by

2120
01:58:58,200 --> 01:59:00,440
Speaker 1: certain people being elevated to a start, to us of

2121
01:59:00,680 --> 01:59:05,480
Speaker 1: having more power over others. I mean, part of that

2122
01:59:05,640 --> 01:59:09,360
Speaker 1: humanity has to entail freedom to self organized, freedom to

2123
01:59:09,440 --> 01:59:14,879
Speaker 1: ls who, freedom to disassociate, decision making power, autonomy, you know, Otherwise,

2124
01:59:14,920 --> 01:59:17,840
Speaker 1: what kind of humanity is that? Really? How can people

2125
01:59:17,880 --> 01:59:21,400
Speaker 1: access their full humanity in themselves if they're being deprived

2126
01:59:21,480 --> 01:59:24,560
Speaker 1: by others on how can those others who are depriving

2127
01:59:24,960 --> 01:59:28,480
Speaker 1: people have access their full humanity when they're depriving others.

2128
01:59:29,200 --> 01:59:31,200
Speaker 1: If you get what I'm saying, Yeah, yeah, I think

2129
01:59:31,240 --> 01:59:34,960
Speaker 1: that's perfectly right. Yeah, And I mean pretty much the

2130
01:59:34,960 --> 01:59:39,360
Speaker 1: same thing with the system I mean with the capitalism,

2131
01:59:39,440 --> 01:59:43,000
Speaker 1: with the state, I mean patriarchy, which also elevates some

2132
01:59:43,080 --> 01:59:46,640
Speaker 1: people above others and denies those marginalized others full access

2133
01:59:46,640 --> 01:59:51,080
Speaker 1: to humanity. All of us are restricted in some ways

2134
01:59:51,200 --> 01:59:55,960
Speaker 1: from understanding ourselves, in ourselves and through others by the

2135
01:59:56,200 --> 02:00:02,360
Speaker 1: ideology and system of patriarchy. And of course the schools

2136
02:00:02,360 --> 02:00:05,560
Speaker 1: are out saying, but what could be more incompatible with

2137
02:00:05,720 --> 02:00:09,000
Speaker 1: the Buntu than clunialism. You know, it doesn't simply deny

2138
02:00:09,160 --> 02:00:12,360
Speaker 1: the humanity of those that exploit. It also strips the

2139
02:00:12,440 --> 02:00:17,400
Speaker 1: humanity the exploiters. I mean, as a Missa my referenced

2140
02:00:17,440 --> 02:00:23,120
Speaker 1: earlier wrote in Discourse and Cluinalism, colonization works to decivilize

2141
02:00:23,160 --> 02:00:26,320
Speaker 1: the colonizer, to brutalize him in the sentence of the

2142
02:00:26,480 --> 02:00:28,800
Speaker 1: in a true sense of the wood, to degrade him

2143
02:00:29,080 --> 02:00:34,680
Speaker 1: and to awaken him to buried instincts, to covetousness, violence, race, hatred,

2144
02:00:34,760 --> 02:00:37,680
Speaker 1: and more relativism. And we must show that each time

2145
02:00:37,720 --> 02:00:40,160
Speaker 1: a head is cut off or an eye put out

2146
02:00:40,240 --> 02:00:44,080
Speaker 1: in Vietnam and in France, they accept the fact each

2147
02:00:44,120 --> 02:00:48,240
Speaker 1: time a little girl is assaulted, and in France they

2148
02:00:48,280 --> 02:00:51,720
Speaker 1: accept the fact. Each time a Madagascar is tortured, and

2149
02:00:51,840 --> 02:00:55,959
Speaker 1: in France they accept the fact. Civilization acquires another deadweight,

2150
02:00:56,400 --> 02:01:00,080
Speaker 1: a universal regression takes place, a gang green sets in,

2151
02:01:00,440 --> 02:01:03,120
Speaker 1: a center of infection begins to spread. And that at

2152
02:01:03,160 --> 02:01:06,280
Speaker 1: the end of all these treatise treaties that have been violated,

2153
02:01:06,560 --> 02:01:09,400
Speaker 1: all these lies that have been propagated, all these punitive

2154
02:01:09,440 --> 02:01:12,400
Speaker 1: expeditions that have been tolerated, all these prisoners who have

2155
02:01:12,480 --> 02:01:15,400
Speaker 1: been tied up and interrogated, all these patriots who have

2156
02:01:15,480 --> 02:01:17,920
Speaker 1: been tortured, at the end of all the racial pride

2157
02:01:18,000 --> 02:01:21,080
Speaker 1: has been encouraged, all the boostfulness that has been displayed,

2158
02:01:21,680 --> 02:01:24,240
Speaker 1: a poison has been instilled into the veins of Europe,

2159
02:01:24,280 --> 02:01:31,839
Speaker 1: and slowly, but surely, the continent proceeds towards savagery. Powerful

2160
02:01:31,880 --> 02:01:40,920
Speaker 1: words as usual from that great Yeah, that's very good. Yeah. So,

2161
02:01:40,960 --> 02:01:42,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's a lot of potential in

2162
02:01:42,920 --> 02:01:45,640
Speaker 1: the interpretation of a boon too, right, which is both

2163
02:01:45,680 --> 02:01:47,400
Speaker 1: a flaw and a strength. And when I get into

2164
02:01:47,440 --> 02:01:51,560
Speaker 1: the criticism a bit more you'll see why. But regardless,

2165
02:01:52,320 --> 02:01:55,760
Speaker 1: of course, there's value to be clean from dios understandings

2166
02:01:55,800 --> 02:01:58,520
Speaker 1: there's power in finding our roots to secure our future.

2167
02:01:59,120 --> 02:02:03,080
Speaker 1: And whether a partnership and affinity group, an organization, a community,

2168
02:02:03,160 --> 02:02:07,400
Speaker 1: or beyond. This basic principle of recognizing the authentic individual

2169
02:02:07,520 --> 02:02:11,040
Speaker 1: human being as part of a larger and more significant relational,

2170
02:02:11,200 --> 02:02:16,839
Speaker 1: communal society, of environmental and spiritual world is vital process

2171
02:02:17,200 --> 02:02:21,280
Speaker 1: of social revolution, of confronting the powerful, to protests and

2172
02:02:21,360 --> 02:02:26,440
Speaker 1: occupations and reclamations and expropriations, in refusing to cooperate with

2173
02:02:26,480 --> 02:02:29,720
Speaker 1: the powers of being through strikes and boycotts and mutinies

2174
02:02:29,760 --> 02:02:32,840
Speaker 1: and other forms of interaction, and then building new institutions

2175
02:02:32,920 --> 02:02:37,880
Speaker 1: like cooperatives and popular assemblies and libraries of things. All

2176
02:02:37,960 --> 02:02:41,720
Speaker 1: of those things, all those aspects of social revolution allow

2177
02:02:41,800 --> 02:02:47,560
Speaker 1: us to assert ourselves, to recognize the mutual and ecality

2178
02:02:47,640 --> 02:02:52,160
Speaker 1: and connection of all people. You know, a police smithly

2179
02:02:52,200 --> 02:02:56,080
Speaker 1: boone two is open and available to others. Its a

2180
02:02:56,200 --> 02:02:58,760
Speaker 1: flaming to others. I feel threatened that others are able

2181
02:02:58,800 --> 02:03:03,360
Speaker 1: and good, and so by recognizing with the boons you know,

2182
02:03:03,400 --> 02:03:06,000
Speaker 1: recognize and it, you're part of a greater whole. That

2183
02:03:06,200 --> 02:03:10,320
Speaker 1: whole is diminished when others are humiliated, or diminished when

2184
02:03:10,400 --> 02:03:16,000
Speaker 1: others are tortured or oppressed, and so someone with boon

2185
02:03:16,040 --> 02:03:18,960
Speaker 1: to someone who recognizes the interconnectness of all humanity is

2186
02:03:19,000 --> 02:03:21,680
Speaker 1: someone who has to be engaged in some form of

2187
02:03:21,720 --> 02:03:24,600
Speaker 1: social revolution, who has to be engaged in trying to

2188
02:03:24,720 --> 02:03:28,120
Speaker 1: free people, help people free themselves so that they can

2189
02:03:28,280 --> 02:03:32,680
Speaker 1: engage in their own humanity and so add to your

2190
02:03:32,720 --> 02:03:36,959
Speaker 1: own humanity in turn. And when it comes to the commons,

2191
02:03:37,360 --> 02:03:41,600
Speaker 1: common ownership, you know, the reversal of the enclosure movement, socialization,

2192
02:03:41,680 --> 02:03:44,600
Speaker 1: what if you want to call it, that is also

2193
02:03:44,760 --> 02:03:50,160
Speaker 1: something that ultimately is about the bonds between people, about

2194
02:03:50,280 --> 02:03:54,680
Speaker 1: the distribution of the means of production and of the

2195
02:03:55,320 --> 02:03:58,840
Speaker 1: fruits of all of our labor so that all can enjoy,

2196
02:03:59,000 --> 02:04:03,000
Speaker 1: so it all can have a vested interest in our

2197
02:04:03,080 --> 02:04:09,120
Speaker 1: collective prosperity. When it comes to you know, community work,

2198
02:04:10,920 --> 02:04:16,520
Speaker 1: you know, unto is about this idea that we can

2199
02:04:16,960 --> 02:04:19,680
Speaker 1: work together, you know, in growing our food and distributing

2200
02:04:19,760 --> 02:04:25,880
Speaker 1: when we need. This idea that being a mother or

2201
02:04:25,920 --> 02:04:28,800
Speaker 1: being a father, being a parent, it's not just about

2202
02:04:29,280 --> 02:04:32,400
Speaker 1: being that to your own biological children, but rather in

2203
02:04:32,520 --> 02:04:37,720
Speaker 1: recognizing that we are all connected in that way. It's

2204
02:04:38,320 --> 02:04:45,720
Speaker 1: it's like a it's like an understanding that there should

2205
02:04:45,760 --> 02:04:49,440
Speaker 1: not be this idea of or funds right, this idea

2206
02:04:49,560 --> 02:04:52,080
Speaker 1: that we're all meant to look out for each other,

2207
02:04:52,600 --> 02:04:56,320
Speaker 1: that no person is meant to be cut off from

2208
02:04:57,240 --> 02:05:02,800
Speaker 1: the sort of care it is necessary for caring into

2209
02:05:03,640 --> 02:05:06,360
Speaker 1: a fully realized person. I mean, even in the realm

2210
02:05:06,440 --> 02:05:10,360
Speaker 1: of education, you see potential applications if we're gountu in

2211
02:05:10,480 --> 02:05:13,440
Speaker 1: recognizing that everyone has different skills and strengths, that people

2212
02:05:13,440 --> 02:05:16,360
Speaker 1: are not isolated, and that through mutual support they can

2213
02:05:16,480 --> 02:05:21,320
Speaker 1: help each other to complete themselves. As Ortry Tang argues,

2214
02:05:22,680 --> 02:05:25,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there needs to be an education

2215
02:05:25,480 --> 02:05:33,600
Speaker 1: that recognizes the importance of community, society, and environmental well being,

2216
02:05:34,760 --> 02:05:39,520
Speaker 1: one that emphasizes the connection between all those things, one

2217
02:05:39,560 --> 02:05:46,240
Speaker 1: that involves interaction, participation, recognition, respect, and inclusion as core

2218
02:05:46,320 --> 02:05:56,000
Speaker 1: tenants of the learning process, of students learning from facilitators

2219
02:05:56,080 --> 02:05:59,120
Speaker 1: and the facilitators learning from students. Of recognizing that we

2220
02:05:59,200 --> 02:06:02,920
Speaker 1: hold both positions, and that those positions are held from

2221
02:06:02,920 --> 02:06:05,680
Speaker 1: the moment we're born to the moment we eventually pass

2222
02:06:05,800 --> 02:06:10,880
Speaker 1: on as rich as the potential of unto. Maybe I

2223
02:06:10,880 --> 02:06:12,600
Speaker 1: don't want to put it out as if it's some

2224
02:06:12,720 --> 02:06:17,920
Speaker 1: sort of like flawless and perfect philosophy. Right, it's not

2225
02:06:18,120 --> 02:06:21,080
Speaker 1: above critique. It's not immune, as I mentioned before, to

2226
02:06:21,280 --> 02:06:27,440
Speaker 1: hierarchical interpretations and applications. It's very much right for liberal sensibilities,

2227
02:06:27,520 --> 02:06:32,240
Speaker 1: as we've seen Departments of State speaking of Untu diplomacy

2228
02:06:34,320 --> 02:06:40,600
Speaker 1: and unto foreign policy and that sort of thing. Some

2229
02:06:40,800 --> 02:06:43,680
Speaker 1: Kang's idea that you know, part of UBUNTUO is that

2230
02:06:43,720 --> 02:06:46,600
Speaker 1: the king always a status including all the powers associated

2231
02:06:46,600 --> 02:06:49,720
Speaker 1: with it to build the people under him. I mean

2232
02:06:49,840 --> 02:06:53,280
Speaker 1: right now and for a while now, Boons has not

2233
02:06:53,360 --> 02:06:58,240
Speaker 1: had a single solid framework of what exactly entails, what

2234
02:06:58,320 --> 02:07:02,600
Speaker 1: it makes up, what it doesn't. There's still a lot

2235
02:07:02,640 --> 02:07:08,400
Speaker 1: of fuzziness and inconsistency within different people's interpretations of the

2236
02:07:08,480 --> 02:07:13,040
Speaker 1: definition of Untu. As one scholar in Yasha and Booti

2237
02:07:13,800 --> 02:07:19,040
Speaker 1: has noted, there's an interpretation, So an interpretation of a

2238
02:07:19,080 --> 02:07:23,280
Speaker 1: Buntu that sea is Africans has you know, naturally interdependence

2239
02:07:23,320 --> 02:07:25,720
Speaker 1: and harmony is seeking that humanity is given to a

2240
02:07:25,800 --> 02:07:29,800
Speaker 1: person buying through of the persons. But there's a sort

2241
02:07:29,840 --> 02:07:35,920
Speaker 1: of a trap in that because humanity is also pretty messy.

2242
02:07:35,960 --> 02:07:39,200
Speaker 1: The relationships between between people can also be very messy.

2243
02:07:39,240 --> 02:07:42,560
Speaker 1: It's not all sunshine and rainbows. You know, a broken

2244
02:07:42,640 --> 02:07:48,040
Speaker 1: relationship is as authentically human as a harmonious relationship. You know,

2245
02:07:49,040 --> 02:07:51,920
Speaker 1: a broken relationship can also be more ethical than a

2246
02:07:52,000 --> 02:07:58,320
Speaker 1: harmonious relationship. Booti points to, for example, the freedom that

2247
02:07:58,440 --> 02:08:01,720
Speaker 1: follows from a break from a pressure that follows from

2248
02:08:01,760 --> 02:08:06,280
Speaker 1: a break from a relationship of domination to want of freedom.

2249
02:08:07,240 --> 02:08:11,760
Speaker 1: And of course this idea that harmony's relationships are incapable

2250
02:08:11,760 --> 02:08:16,320
Speaker 1: of being oppressive is false. You know, a harmonious relationship

2251
02:08:16,360 --> 02:08:20,680
Speaker 1: can be quite oppressive. In the Dynamics team, people that

2252
02:08:20,760 --> 02:08:27,320
Speaker 1: are hidden under that veal of Honkey dory, you know. So,

2253
02:08:27,440 --> 02:08:31,680
Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot of there's a lot too ubuntu,

2254
02:08:32,480 --> 02:08:34,720
Speaker 1: there's a lot of good to be cleaned, a lot

2255
02:08:34,800 --> 02:08:40,120
Speaker 1: of potential pitfalls to be avoided. So you know, take

2256
02:08:40,200 --> 02:08:43,800
Speaker 1: what's the value, leave what's not, engage critically, what's your plans,

2257
02:08:43,880 --> 02:09:02,200
Speaker 1: and have a good dye. Hi everyone, welcome to it

2258
02:09:02,280 --> 02:09:05,680
Speaker 1: could happen here. A podcast which Bipopular Demand today is

2259
02:09:05,680 --> 02:09:08,960
Speaker 1: about livestock as we will be going forward. It's me,

2260
02:09:09,120 --> 02:09:12,480
Speaker 1: It's Garrison, and we're talking about species of sheep. Don't

2261
02:09:12,520 --> 02:09:14,520
Speaker 1: not really, We're not talking about species of sheep, much

2262
02:09:14,600 --> 02:09:16,760
Speaker 1: to my disappointment. Not yet, but that will be coming.

2263
02:09:16,800 --> 02:09:20,120
Speaker 1: We're going to be getting into clined texuls mules that

2264
02:09:20,200 --> 02:09:22,680
Speaker 1: kind of think big sheep stuff. But now today we're

2265
02:09:22,680 --> 02:09:28,160
Speaker 1: actually joined by John, and John has been subjected to

2266
02:09:28,240 --> 02:09:30,320
Speaker 1: my weight introduction, but we're not We're not talking about

2267
02:09:30,320 --> 02:09:34,640
Speaker 1: sheep today. We're talking about active transport infrastructure and we're

2268
02:09:34,720 --> 02:09:37,400
Speaker 1: talking about how cities tend to build that in certain

2269
02:09:37,440 --> 02:09:40,960
Speaker 1: communities and not in others. So welcome to the show, John, Yeah,

2270
02:09:41,040 --> 02:09:43,840
Speaker 1: thanks for having me. I'll say that my partner would

2271
02:09:43,840 --> 02:09:46,640
Speaker 1: have been overjoyed if the podcast was actually about species

2272
02:09:46,680 --> 02:09:51,120
Speaker 1: of sheep, So she's tired of hearing me talk about bikes,

2273
02:09:51,120 --> 02:09:54,640
Speaker 1: I'm sure, so, but here we are. Yeah, thanks for

2274
02:09:54,720 --> 02:09:58,800
Speaker 1: having me, John Stalin. I'm an assistant professor at University

2275
02:09:58,800 --> 02:10:03,680
Speaker 1: of North Carolina, Greensboro. Great. Yeah, So I think to

2276
02:10:03,760 --> 02:10:07,000
Speaker 1: start off with if if you could kind of outline

2277
02:10:08,320 --> 02:10:11,560
Speaker 1: what sort of like I guess, I guess people might

2278
02:10:11,640 --> 02:10:15,240
Speaker 1: not be familiar at all with bike infrastructure, certainly if

2279
02:10:15,280 --> 02:10:16,920
Speaker 1: they live in some parts of the US or like

2280
02:10:17,080 --> 02:10:19,440
Speaker 1: more rural areas, and sort of what it looks like

2281
02:10:19,560 --> 02:10:21,800
Speaker 1: and what cities have been doing in the last few

2282
02:10:21,880 --> 02:10:24,640
Speaker 1: years building bike infrastructure, and then how that relates to

2283
02:10:24,800 --> 02:10:28,960
Speaker 1: the I guess the income disparities within cities. Yeah, I

2284
02:10:29,000 --> 02:10:32,600
Speaker 1: mean that's a that's a big question, something that I

2285
02:10:33,080 --> 02:10:36,680
Speaker 1: tackled in my book, which came out in twenty nineteen.

2286
02:10:36,800 --> 02:10:40,920
Speaker 1: But then I haven't haven't kept up with it quite

2287
02:10:40,960 --> 02:10:43,480
Speaker 1: as much. I've been trying to start work working on

2288
02:10:43,560 --> 02:10:46,240
Speaker 1: other projects. But you know, I keep I keep tabs

2289
02:10:46,240 --> 02:10:48,960
Speaker 1: on things a little bit um. I mean, basically, if

2290
02:10:49,000 --> 02:10:53,440
Speaker 1: we're talking about the the standard rundown of infrastructure, the

2291
02:10:54,560 --> 02:11:00,400
Speaker 1: the I would say, the most common thing that people

2292
02:11:00,440 --> 02:11:02,760
Speaker 1: think about and probably the most common thing that's built

2293
02:11:02,840 --> 02:11:06,320
Speaker 1: in part because it's quite cheap, especially over they say

2294
02:11:06,320 --> 02:11:09,560
Speaker 1: the last twenty years, is the bike lane. You know,

2295
02:11:09,640 --> 02:11:14,000
Speaker 1: a bike lane is usually about three to five feet wide,

2296
02:11:15,120 --> 02:11:19,879
Speaker 1: and it's in to the far right of the roadway

2297
02:11:19,920 --> 02:11:22,120
Speaker 1: if you're in the United States or you know, if

2298
02:11:22,160 --> 02:11:26,040
Speaker 1: you're driving on the right tends to be where glass collects,

2299
02:11:26,160 --> 02:11:31,680
Speaker 1: tends to be where car doors are it. And so

2300
02:11:31,920 --> 02:11:36,600
Speaker 1: that nevertheless was you know, very common in places that

2301
02:11:36,680 --> 02:11:41,200
Speaker 1: we're building bicycle infrastructure. That's what was being built in

2302
02:11:41,840 --> 02:11:46,840
Speaker 1: I would say the last ten to fifteen years, there's

2303
02:11:46,880 --> 02:11:49,720
Speaker 1: been a push to do more what people might call

2304
02:11:49,920 --> 02:11:55,960
Speaker 1: Dutch style protected bike lanes. Either they're protected by a

2305
02:11:56,040 --> 02:12:02,720
Speaker 1: buffer of kind of plastic post that don't prevent an

2306
02:12:02,800 --> 02:12:06,920
Speaker 1: emergency vehicle from kind of getting where it needs to go,

2307
02:12:07,040 --> 02:12:09,400
Speaker 1: but also don't prevent drivers from just driving into the

2308
02:12:09,440 --> 02:12:15,800
Speaker 1: bike lane. Really, so you'll see those and then you

2309
02:12:15,880 --> 02:12:19,480
Speaker 1: know parking protected bike lanes. So the protected bike lanes

2310
02:12:19,720 --> 02:12:27,080
Speaker 1: started became the big demand from bicycle infrastructure planning practitioners,

2311
02:12:27,280 --> 02:12:32,040
Speaker 1: especially in cities like Portland's, you know, San Francisco, Oakland, Chicago,

2312
02:12:32,760 --> 02:12:35,520
Speaker 1: New York City, etcetera, etcetera. Something that was actually protected

2313
02:12:35,600 --> 02:12:43,240
Speaker 1: by a curb usually really usually it's still like some

2314
02:12:43,360 --> 02:12:46,880
Speaker 1: kind of a plastic curb right or cars right, and

2315
02:12:47,040 --> 02:12:50,920
Speaker 1: you're not seeing a lot of you know, concrete or

2316
02:12:50,960 --> 02:12:53,800
Speaker 1: brick curb work like you'll see in the Netherlands or

2317
02:12:53,840 --> 02:12:56,680
Speaker 1: something like that. And then, interestingly enough, another piece of

2318
02:12:56,760 --> 02:12:59,800
Speaker 1: infrastructure that there was a funny kind of maya culpa

2319
02:13:00,640 --> 02:13:06,640
Speaker 1: or not mea culpa, but a reevaluation of it was

2320
02:13:06,720 --> 02:13:10,280
Speaker 1: the sharrow, which is just a sort of a chevron

2321
02:13:10,360 --> 02:13:13,440
Speaker 1: symbol in the middle of a car lane intended to

2322
02:13:13,600 --> 02:13:16,600
Speaker 1: remind drivers that cyclists are allowed to be there, but

2323
02:13:16,720 --> 02:13:20,240
Speaker 1: sort of put cyclists in the location where they would

2324
02:13:20,320 --> 02:13:24,040
Speaker 1: sort of garner the most hatred. And there was a

2325
02:13:24,200 --> 02:13:29,080
Speaker 1: recent recent editorial from Dave Snyder, San Francisco Bicycle Coalition.

2326
02:13:29,200 --> 02:13:32,640
Speaker 1: It was a big, big pioneer just in general bicycle infrastructure.

2327
02:13:32,680 --> 02:13:37,400
Speaker 1: I interviewed him for my dissertation and he talked about

2328
02:13:37,440 --> 02:13:40,440
Speaker 1: how they don't work. That was a mistake. It was

2329
02:13:40,600 --> 02:13:44,920
Speaker 1: mistake kind of splitting the difference, making it seem like

2330
02:13:45,000 --> 02:13:47,120
Speaker 1: you didn't have to take any space away from cars

2331
02:13:47,360 --> 02:13:50,160
Speaker 1: in order to fit pikes into the roadway. So I

2332
02:13:50,160 --> 02:13:51,960
Speaker 1: don't know if that's kind of more than you wanted

2333
02:13:52,040 --> 02:13:53,960
Speaker 1: from that. No, No, that's great because I think a

2334
02:13:54,000 --> 02:13:56,320
Speaker 1: lot of folks might not have seen all these different things. Certainly,

2335
02:13:56,400 --> 02:13:59,000
Speaker 1: Like if you're like me and you wrote your bike

2336
02:13:59,040 --> 02:14:01,160
Speaker 1: every day, you know each of these different things, and

2337
02:14:01,600 --> 02:14:02,960
Speaker 1: some of them make you feel safer for some of

2338
02:14:03,000 --> 02:14:05,680
Speaker 1: them don't, and some of them are just kind of tokenistic.

2339
02:14:06,320 --> 02:14:08,760
Speaker 1: I think a lot of this kind of gets to

2340
02:14:08,840 --> 02:14:11,080
Speaker 1: a bigger discussion, which which is one waybe we can

2341
02:14:11,160 --> 02:14:13,120
Speaker 1: touch on, which is like who the city is for?

2342
02:14:14,680 --> 02:14:17,840
Speaker 1: When we're building cities in this country, certainly it seems

2343
02:14:17,840 --> 02:14:20,840
Speaker 1: like we've built them around cars. With a few exceptions

2344
02:14:20,880 --> 02:14:24,600
Speaker 1: like older cities and stuff, and increasingly, like if you

2345
02:14:24,760 --> 02:14:26,960
Speaker 1: ask for space that and you are not a car,

2346
02:14:27,800 --> 02:14:30,320
Speaker 1: then you know to include people wanting to live on

2347
02:14:30,360 --> 02:14:32,240
Speaker 1: the streets, right that cars have free places to go

2348
02:14:32,280 --> 02:14:36,720
Speaker 1: at night, but people don't. And so like this reallocation

2349
02:14:36,760 --> 02:14:41,320
Speaker 1: of space I think gets to a bigger question, which is, yeah,

2350
02:14:41,360 --> 02:14:44,160
Speaker 1: maybe something you can speak to. Yeah, So I mean

2351
02:14:44,200 --> 02:14:46,960
Speaker 1: the question of I think you can think of who

2352
02:14:47,640 --> 02:14:51,880
Speaker 1: both in terms of the mode of transport, it's very

2353
02:14:52,000 --> 02:14:59,320
Speaker 1: car dominant society, right, and car car driving is even

2354
02:14:59,400 --> 02:15:02,560
Speaker 1: on the rise in places like Copenhagen. Right, there's kind

2355
02:15:02,560 --> 02:15:04,640
Speaker 1: of a lot of fretting among my supply advocates in

2356
02:15:05,040 --> 02:15:11,360
Speaker 1: Copenhagen about the rise of car usage. So there's the

2357
02:15:11,440 --> 02:15:14,040
Speaker 1: quite the sort of the mode of transport. But you know,

2358
02:15:14,160 --> 02:15:16,440
Speaker 1: cars aren't people, right, as you sort of pointed out

2359
02:15:16,480 --> 02:15:18,840
Speaker 1: just then and then so there's another layer to it

2360
02:15:19,040 --> 02:15:22,440
Speaker 1: that intersects with it, which is cities being increasingly sort

2361
02:15:22,480 --> 02:15:29,440
Speaker 1: of oriented towards attracting higher income residents, right, kind of

2362
02:15:29,560 --> 02:15:34,960
Speaker 1: creating an attractive urban environment. There's a there's a kind

2363
02:15:34,960 --> 02:15:39,960
Speaker 1: of an intersection with the interest in attracting kind of

2364
02:15:40,080 --> 02:15:44,800
Speaker 1: high tech or creative or knowledge intensive types of jobs, right,

2365
02:15:45,000 --> 02:15:49,920
Speaker 1: your software programmers, you know, I think it was Chicago

2366
02:15:50,040 --> 02:15:52,440
Speaker 1: mayor Roman Manuel. I use this in lectures all the time.

2367
02:15:52,600 --> 02:15:56,000
Speaker 1: He said something like, um, you can't be for a

2368
02:15:56,120 --> 02:16:00,400
Speaker 1: high tech, a creative city economy and not be pro byte. Right.

2369
02:16:00,600 --> 02:16:07,800
Speaker 1: So there's this there's this idea that you know, maybe

2370
02:16:08,120 --> 02:16:12,440
Speaker 1: a little bit spurious, or it might be kind of

2371
02:16:13,360 --> 02:16:17,840
Speaker 1: loose causality, but there's this idea that the kinds of

2372
02:16:17,960 --> 02:16:20,160
Speaker 1: workers that you want in your city that are either

2373
02:16:20,280 --> 02:16:25,440
Speaker 1: going to take high paying jobs and increase the property

2374
02:16:25,560 --> 02:16:32,040
Speaker 1: tax base or themselves create new startups, entrepreneurial energy, arts,

2375
02:16:32,160 --> 02:16:36,039
Speaker 1: culture and uh and things like that, right that they

2376
02:16:36,120 --> 02:16:39,960
Speaker 1: are they are attracted by bicycle infrastructure or bicycling or

2377
02:16:40,640 --> 02:16:45,280
Speaker 1: bicycle culture in some respects. So there's that that kind

2378
02:16:45,280 --> 02:16:51,320
Speaker 1: of the the irony, of course, is that those workers

2379
02:16:52,520 --> 02:16:55,480
Speaker 1: you know, guilty I have a car, right, typically bring

2380
02:16:55,600 --> 02:17:00,360
Speaker 1: cars with them, right, And so yes, maybe they don't

2381
02:17:00,440 --> 02:17:02,560
Speaker 1: want to use them on a daily basis, like I

2382
02:17:02,680 --> 02:17:04,720
Speaker 1: don't use my car on a daily basis. I don't

2383
02:17:04,800 --> 02:17:08,080
Speaker 1: use my car to get to work, right, But they

2384
02:17:09,400 --> 02:17:13,120
Speaker 1: you know, are often kind of having it both wings,

2385
02:17:13,480 --> 02:17:15,760
Speaker 1: right in a lot of ways in terms of you know,

2386
02:17:15,879 --> 02:17:18,280
Speaker 1: buildings will be built with garages, right, and that's only

2387
02:17:18,360 --> 02:17:23,000
Speaker 1: recently starting to be eroded, right as just a you know,

2388
02:17:23,120 --> 02:17:28,080
Speaker 1: a one to one parking ratio and a transit connected building. Yeah,

2389
02:17:28,400 --> 02:17:31,360
Speaker 1: and so when we're talking about it, the combination of

2390
02:17:31,480 --> 02:17:33,959
Speaker 1: these two things, right, like affluent areas or cities trying

2391
02:17:33,959 --> 02:17:37,800
Speaker 1: to attract affluent people and cities trying to build bike infrastructure.

2392
02:17:38,280 --> 02:17:41,879
Speaker 1: And something I've observed where I live, which is San Diego,

2393
02:17:42,080 --> 02:17:44,640
Speaker 1: is that we've built a lot of bike lanes, but

2394
02:17:44,800 --> 02:17:49,480
Speaker 1: only connecting privileged communities to places where people do high

2395
02:17:49,480 --> 02:17:53,360
Speaker 1: income work. And it seems like increasingly like riding your

2396
02:17:53,400 --> 02:17:56,880
Speaker 1: bike safely is a privilege that it's only afforded to

2397
02:17:56,920 --> 02:17:59,879
Speaker 1: a certain group of people. Is that something that's broader

2398
02:18:00,000 --> 02:18:04,400
Speaker 1: than just in my town, I'd say so. I mean,

2399
02:18:04,480 --> 02:18:07,680
Speaker 1: I think you see this in in where I did

2400
02:18:07,800 --> 02:18:09,960
Speaker 1: a lot of my research in the San Francisco Bay area,

2401
02:18:10,200 --> 02:18:14,800
Speaker 1: also did research in Philadelphia and Detroit and Austin as well.

2402
02:18:14,840 --> 02:18:17,840
Speaker 1: That's not in the book, but yeah, that's it's common,

2403
02:18:17,879 --> 02:18:20,959
Speaker 1: and there's a few different There's kind of a there's

2404
02:18:21,040 --> 02:18:26,600
Speaker 1: a degree of cumulative causality as we would say in

2405
02:18:26,879 --> 02:18:32,160
Speaker 1: economic geography, right, you have going back to say the

2406
02:18:32,280 --> 02:18:40,560
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, you had bicycle advocates primarily recreational, primarily middle class,

2407
02:18:40,720 --> 02:18:46,080
Speaker 1: largely white, recreational cyclists, or and you start to seem

2408
02:18:46,600 --> 02:18:50,520
Speaker 1: participants in by squad becacy organizations also being kind of

2409
02:18:50,760 --> 02:18:58,160
Speaker 1: bicycle commuters. The kinds of jobs that were growing in

2410
02:18:58,320 --> 02:19:01,360
Speaker 1: urban centers in the nineteen nineties, in two thousands or

2411
02:19:01,640 --> 02:19:05,520
Speaker 1: you know, the first decade of this millennium, right, are

2412
02:19:05,560 --> 02:19:10,720
Speaker 1: the kinds of you know, if not high tech, the

2413
02:19:10,840 --> 02:19:15,400
Speaker 1: sort of professional technical type of employment right, growing in

2414
02:19:15,520 --> 02:19:27,119
Speaker 1: urban centers. And there's relatively affordable housing in gentrifying neighborhoods

2415
02:19:27,720 --> 02:19:32,920
Speaker 1: that makes it feasible and desirable actually that you could

2416
02:19:33,800 --> 02:19:38,080
Speaker 1: you could, you know, find a fairly affordable house and

2417
02:19:38,280 --> 02:19:41,640
Speaker 1: be able to bike to work right two to three miles, right,

2418
02:19:41,760 --> 02:19:44,760
Speaker 1: rather than the commute in from the suburbs or the

2419
02:19:44,879 --> 02:19:49,840
Speaker 1: commute out from the urban center to jobs at the suburbs. Right. Um,

2420
02:19:51,560 --> 02:19:55,960
Speaker 1: So I think that you get a lot of the

2421
02:19:56,120 --> 02:19:59,200
Speaker 1: initial energy around the bicycle movement if you look at

2422
02:19:59,280 --> 02:20:02,000
Speaker 1: critical mass, if you look at the San Francisco Bicycle

2423
02:20:02,080 --> 02:20:04,680
Speaker 1: Coalition and its early days Again, these are things I'm

2424
02:20:04,720 --> 02:20:07,879
Speaker 1: familiar with a lot of this sort of the political

2425
02:20:08,000 --> 02:20:15,200
Speaker 1: mobilization is around making those types of journeys easier, more doable. Right.

2426
02:20:15,480 --> 02:20:18,280
Speaker 1: You also have the phenomenon where the neighborhoods that are

2427
02:20:18,360 --> 02:20:23,400
Speaker 1: getting gentrified in this time are your sort of classic

2428
02:20:24,120 --> 02:20:30,039
Speaker 1: innermost streetcar suburbs developed around one hundred years ago, fairly

2429
02:20:30,160 --> 02:20:33,720
Speaker 1: walkable themselves. They have a mix of commercial and residential.

2430
02:20:33,959 --> 02:20:37,400
Speaker 1: They aren't buy in large industrial neighborhoods, right, the industrial

2431
02:20:37,400 --> 02:20:39,760
Speaker 1: neighborhoods where you still have a lot of truck traffic,

2432
02:20:39,959 --> 02:20:45,000
Speaker 1: where in industry be got more industry or de industrialization

2433
02:20:45,160 --> 02:20:50,320
Speaker 1: really hollowed out the economic base where you have you know,

2434
02:20:50,840 --> 02:20:57,320
Speaker 1: large roadways, you have you know disinvestment and kind of

2435
02:20:57,400 --> 02:21:02,800
Speaker 1: a mix of small retail or um lower income population.

2436
02:21:04,760 --> 02:21:09,560
Speaker 1: Those were not um. Those were not areas where there

2437
02:21:09,640 --> 02:21:13,680
Speaker 1: were that were attracting the kinds of people who would

2438
02:21:13,720 --> 02:21:18,240
Speaker 1: be listened to when they're demanding bicycle infrastructure. Right, there's

2439
02:21:18,240 --> 02:21:21,720
Speaker 1: still lots of cyclists in those neighborhoods. UM in a

2440
02:21:21,840 --> 02:21:28,400
Speaker 1: place like East Oakland or um uh North Philadelphia or

2441
02:21:28,520 --> 02:21:30,560
Speaker 1: something like that, right where there are a lot of

2442
02:21:30,600 --> 02:21:35,199
Speaker 1: people who ride bicycles, but they don't they're not organized politically,

2443
02:21:35,840 --> 02:21:40,840
Speaker 1: uh under the sort of the block of of of cyclists. Um.

2444
02:21:42,040 --> 02:21:46,600
Speaker 1: And so there's this sort of paradox or in the

2445
02:21:46,879 --> 02:21:49,640
Speaker 1: way that I came around to this project was I

2446
02:21:49,800 --> 02:21:53,640
Speaker 1: was working in a bike shop in Philadelphia, and I

2447
02:21:55,680 --> 02:21:59,600
Speaker 1: was sort of one of those white hipsters on fixies.

2448
02:21:59,800 --> 02:22:02,760
Speaker 1: Right at the same time, I spent a lot of

2449
02:22:02,800 --> 02:22:07,680
Speaker 1: my day speaking Spanish, talking with and helping people fix

2450
02:22:07,760 --> 02:22:11,959
Speaker 1: their bikes, mostly Latin American immigrants who were working as

2451
02:22:12,120 --> 02:22:16,320
Speaker 1: dishwashers or delivering food, buying bikes at Walmart because it's

2452
02:22:16,320 --> 02:22:18,320
Speaker 1: what they could afford, even though they knew that they

2453
02:22:18,360 --> 02:22:21,480
Speaker 1: were crapped, they just couldn't afford anything better, trying to

2454
02:22:21,600 --> 02:22:26,400
Speaker 1: get the most out of those bikes. And so there's

2455
02:22:26,440 --> 02:22:29,680
Speaker 1: this funny dichotomy. On the one hand, it's like you

2456
02:22:29,800 --> 02:22:35,160
Speaker 1: have the cool bike already creative scene that is sort

2457
02:22:35,200 --> 02:22:38,200
Speaker 1: of trying to be encouraged maybe, And on the other hand,

2458
02:22:38,240 --> 02:22:40,680
Speaker 1: a lot of the people who are actually making do

2459
02:22:42,160 --> 02:22:45,080
Speaker 1: on bicycles are not sort of part of that vision,

2460
02:22:45,240 --> 02:22:51,240
Speaker 1: I guess for the city. Right when I think about

2461
02:22:51,400 --> 02:22:55,279
Speaker 1: things in spatial terms as well, right, if you imagine

2462
02:22:55,440 --> 02:22:59,120
Speaker 1: going back to the journeys to work from a sort

2463
02:22:59,160 --> 02:23:03,600
Speaker 1: of close in residential neighborhood that is experiencing a lot

2464
02:23:03,640 --> 02:23:06,840
Speaker 1: of turnover, a lot of middle class you know, mostly white,

2465
02:23:06,879 --> 02:23:11,600
Speaker 1: but not necessarily exclusively white, in migrants, the types of

2466
02:23:11,760 --> 02:23:16,800
Speaker 1: journeys that a lot of you know, I'll take Durham

2467
02:23:16,920 --> 02:23:21,600
Speaker 1: for example, where I live now, which is not there's

2468
02:23:21,640 --> 02:23:24,160
Speaker 1: not a lot of good bicycle infrastructure. There's a little

2469
02:23:24,280 --> 02:23:26,840
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of good bicycle infrastructure, but there's

2470
02:23:27,040 --> 02:23:29,560
Speaker 1: some job growth in the downtown area. There's certainly a

2471
02:23:29,600 --> 02:23:32,640
Speaker 1: lot of job growth in the sort of the suburbs.

2472
02:23:35,360 --> 02:23:38,560
Speaker 1: But in terms of the kinds of jobs that, um,

2473
02:23:39,680 --> 02:23:42,920
Speaker 1: you know, working class jobs that are being created at

2474
02:23:43,040 --> 02:23:46,520
Speaker 1: Amazon fulfillment centers, those are at the urban periphery, right,

2475
02:23:46,600 --> 02:23:49,800
Speaker 1: They're not places that even in a kind of a

2476
02:23:50,800 --> 02:23:55,320
Speaker 1: gentrifying neighborhood, even if bicycle infrastructure were created. This sort

2477
02:23:55,360 --> 02:24:00,879
Speaker 1: of the directionality of the feasible commute kind of runs

2478
02:24:00,959 --> 02:24:05,000
Speaker 1: against the feasible bicycle community, sort of runs against the

2479
02:24:05,160 --> 02:24:10,360
Speaker 1: very kind of spread out and scattered commutes in the

2480
02:24:10,520 --> 02:24:19,720
Speaker 1: sort of retail, wholesale, warehousing, manufacturing, etc. Etc. The sectors

2481
02:24:19,760 --> 02:24:22,840
Speaker 1: that are experiencing job sprawl rather than a sort of

2482
02:24:22,879 --> 02:24:28,120
Speaker 1: a concentrated, concentrated job growth in in the sort of

2483
02:24:28,120 --> 02:24:30,480
Speaker 1: the urban center, right, So that's another aspect to it

2484
02:24:30,600 --> 02:24:33,760
Speaker 1: as well. Bike advocacy is very interesting to me. Like

2485
02:24:33,800 --> 02:24:36,800
Speaker 1: I was a bike messenger, I was a bike racer

2486
02:24:36,959 --> 02:24:39,119
Speaker 1: like these, I've made my living riding a bike. I've

2487
02:24:39,120 --> 02:24:41,480
Speaker 1: also just ridden my bike to get to work. And

2488
02:24:42,160 --> 02:24:46,760
Speaker 1: bike advocacy really hasn't reflected a broad swath of cyclists

2489
02:24:46,800 --> 02:24:49,320
Speaker 1: for a very long time. Do you think that's why

2490
02:24:49,600 --> 02:24:54,640
Speaker 1: we don't see like better infrastructure in some of these

2491
02:24:54,720 --> 02:24:58,760
Speaker 1: like d industrializing areas for instance, And does that lead

2492
02:24:58,840 --> 02:25:01,920
Speaker 1: directly to it being dangerous, Like you would be to

2493
02:25:02,400 --> 02:25:04,640
Speaker 1: ask of their statistics to show that, like it's more

2494
02:25:04,680 --> 02:25:08,000
Speaker 1: dangerous to ride your bike. So I'll say a couple

2495
02:25:08,040 --> 02:25:16,760
Speaker 1: of things. The the the directionality or the causality is

2496
02:25:16,760 --> 02:25:18,960
Speaker 1: a little bit complicated. I would say, certainly there was

2497
02:25:19,040 --> 02:25:23,200
Speaker 1: some evidence that bicycle advocates weren't in the early days,

2498
02:25:23,240 --> 02:25:25,240
Speaker 1: and there was a big sort of cultural shift in

2499
02:25:25,320 --> 02:25:29,199
Speaker 1: bicycle advocacy in the nineteen nineties. Part of the nineteen nineties.

2500
02:25:29,720 --> 02:25:32,000
Speaker 1: You have a lot of cyclists who are actually opposed

2501
02:25:32,200 --> 02:25:37,280
Speaker 1: to bicycle infrastructure we still have. They are still a

2502
02:25:37,480 --> 02:25:41,560
Speaker 1: loud being a rish voice in San Diego. Yeah, exactly.

2503
02:25:41,640 --> 02:25:45,840
Speaker 1: The vehicular cyclists, right, yeah, yeah, could you explain that? Sure?

2504
02:25:46,360 --> 02:25:52,800
Speaker 1: So vehicular cyclists. It was a philosophy expounded by John

2505
02:25:52,959 --> 02:25:59,360
Speaker 1: Forrester might have his book right here, Yeah, in the book,

2506
02:25:59,480 --> 02:26:02,920
Speaker 1: and it's not in the book Effective Cycling. Um. Where

2507
02:26:03,120 --> 02:26:07,720
Speaker 1: it was the idea was that cyclists should be riding

2508
02:26:07,840 --> 02:26:12,680
Speaker 1: like cars, right, which means riding fast, center of the lane,

2509
02:26:13,640 --> 02:26:18,320
Speaker 1: behaving exactly like a car. And they were very opposed

2510
02:26:18,400 --> 02:26:22,000
Speaker 1: to any infrastructure that would sort of create be created

2511
02:26:23,160 --> 02:26:29,360
Speaker 1: especially for bicyclists, on the basis which there was maybe

2512
02:26:29,440 --> 02:26:32,040
Speaker 1: some slight truth to this, that that cyclists would be

2513
02:26:32,160 --> 02:26:37,560
Speaker 1: banned from roads that didn't have dedicated bicycle infrastructure. There

2514
02:26:37,680 --> 02:26:43,720
Speaker 1: was a little bit of concern that was there was

2515
02:26:44,560 --> 02:26:46,840
Speaker 1: I think I remember reading about a little bit of

2516
02:26:47,200 --> 02:26:51,640
Speaker 1: actual talk among legislators and planners that bicyclists would be

2517
02:26:51,760 --> 02:26:54,920
Speaker 1: kept off of main roads. And I think their to

2518
02:26:55,120 --> 02:27:00,280
Speaker 1: their credit, they saw the creation of bicycle infrastructure at

2519
02:27:00,400 --> 02:27:07,000
Speaker 1: that time as basically designed to get cyclists out of

2520
02:27:07,040 --> 02:27:09,400
Speaker 1: the way of motorists, right, and so it was mainly

2521
02:27:10,120 --> 02:27:13,720
Speaker 1: to advance the interests of motorists, right, but they were

2522
02:27:13,879 --> 02:27:19,879
Speaker 1: very hostile to um, they're very hostile to a sort

2523
02:27:19,920 --> 02:27:23,800
Speaker 1: of a Dutch style model, which like, you know, these

2524
02:27:23,879 --> 02:27:27,880
Speaker 1: were guys who like to ride fast and like you don't.

2525
02:27:28,400 --> 02:27:33,440
Speaker 1: You can't ride fast in the Netherlands. Yea, not everyone's

2526
02:27:33,600 --> 02:27:36,000
Speaker 1: physically able nor really wants to go forty miles an

2527
02:27:36,040 --> 02:27:38,880
Speaker 1: hour on a road next to cars, exactly, right. So

2528
02:27:39,680 --> 02:27:45,320
Speaker 1: it was very much around a strong, fit, confident cyclist

2529
02:27:46,120 --> 02:27:49,720
Speaker 1: who knew all the laws of the road, road really fast.

2530
02:27:50,320 --> 02:27:57,560
Speaker 1: Was very assertive. Um. It obviously lent itself towards a

2531
02:27:57,760 --> 02:28:03,680
Speaker 1: sort of a boomer type, right, a sort of adventurous type.

2532
02:28:05,320 --> 02:28:09,880
Speaker 1: And it was very much that we that bicycl advocates

2533
02:28:09,920 --> 02:28:14,440
Speaker 1: should advance the interests of cyclists, not try to grow

2534
02:28:14,640 --> 02:28:17,760
Speaker 1: the number of people cycling, right. And so the shift

2535
02:28:17,879 --> 02:28:21,680
Speaker 1: towards that maybe the critical mass moment is not the

2536
02:28:21,760 --> 02:28:23,720
Speaker 1: only thing, but this is that's sort of a good

2537
02:28:23,879 --> 02:28:27,480
Speaker 1: moment to kind of tag it to the nineteen ninety

2538
02:28:27,520 --> 02:28:32,879
Speaker 1: two first critical mass era, but you know Earthday vehicle

2539
02:28:32,920 --> 02:28:35,440
Speaker 1: for a small planet, all this sort of growing interest

2540
02:28:35,520 --> 02:28:41,120
Speaker 1: in bicycling. Yeah, the shift towards more people should be

2541
02:28:41,200 --> 02:28:44,000
Speaker 1: doing this. Yeah, can you explain critical mass to people

2542
02:28:44,040 --> 02:28:46,400
Speaker 1: who haven't like participated, because I think it's quite a

2543
02:28:46,480 --> 02:28:52,000
Speaker 1: unique and interesting phenomenon. Sure, yeah, absolutely so. Critical mass

2544
02:28:52,280 --> 02:28:58,200
Speaker 1: began in San Francisco in I think the first critical

2545
02:28:58,280 --> 02:29:05,320
Speaker 1: mass was nineteen ninety two, and it was began sort

2546
02:29:05,360 --> 02:29:09,000
Speaker 1: of as like a group of people working, you know,

2547
02:29:09,160 --> 02:29:12,760
Speaker 1: broadly working office jobs who were sort of kind of

2548
02:29:12,840 --> 02:29:18,280
Speaker 1: culturally anarchistic or you know, had these sort of anarchist

2549
02:29:18,400 --> 02:29:24,120
Speaker 1: or situation as kind of ideas and who were kind

2550
02:29:24,160 --> 02:29:27,640
Speaker 1: of organizing months themselves to ride home as a group, right,

2551
02:29:27,840 --> 02:29:30,360
Speaker 1: And they started getting this idea of sort of having

2552
02:29:30,480 --> 02:29:38,480
Speaker 1: these monthly ride together um happenings, right, they called it.

2553
02:29:38,600 --> 02:29:41,400
Speaker 1: They didn't call them protests, and they weren't organized rides.

2554
02:29:41,520 --> 02:29:47,440
Speaker 1: They were uh, sort of rolling festivals, was the idea.

2555
02:29:47,879 --> 02:29:51,840
Speaker 1: I think the first the first name that they came

2556
02:29:51,920 --> 02:29:55,279
Speaker 1: up with, which mercifully didn't stick, was like the commute

2557
02:29:55,400 --> 02:29:59,240
Speaker 1: clot right. So it was also about kind of jamming

2558
02:29:59,440 --> 02:30:04,280
Speaker 1: up the regularity of the Friday evening commute, so it

2559
02:30:04,320 --> 02:30:07,520
Speaker 1: would be like the first Friday of every month at

2560
02:30:07,560 --> 02:30:10,520
Speaker 1: commute time. Right. Um. Some of these I think still

2561
02:30:10,560 --> 02:30:14,840
Speaker 1: happen in Portland, Oh, yeah, Yeah, it's it's the critical

2562
02:30:14,920 --> 02:30:18,000
Speaker 1: Mass still happens. Um. There's a you know, one of

2563
02:30:18,040 --> 02:30:20,000
Speaker 1: the chapters in my book, I sort of trace this

2564
02:30:20,360 --> 02:30:24,320
Speaker 1: arc of critical Mass through to the more kind of

2565
02:30:25,600 --> 02:30:31,039
Speaker 1: bike party oriented exactly the slow role type of model,

2566
02:30:31,640 --> 02:30:35,360
Speaker 1: which I think is interesting because it's a little bit

2567
02:30:35,879 --> 02:30:40,879
Speaker 1: it's consciously less confrontational. It's not held at a time

2568
02:30:41,040 --> 02:30:45,920
Speaker 1: that would clog up, um sure, clog up evening traffic. Uh.

2569
02:30:46,400 --> 02:30:50,120
Speaker 1: It's designed to attract kind of families, people who aren't

2570
02:30:50,120 --> 02:30:53,680
Speaker 1: trying to have confrontations with drivers or police. Right. One

2571
02:30:53,720 --> 02:30:57,120
Speaker 1: of the things that sort of really put um put

2572
02:30:57,240 --> 02:31:00,760
Speaker 1: bicycle infrastructure on the agenda in San Francisco was this

2573
02:31:01,040 --> 02:31:08,400
Speaker 1: mass arrest of Critical Mass in nineteen ninety seven, supposedly

2574
02:31:08,520 --> 02:31:11,640
Speaker 1: because the mayor of San Francisco, Willie Brown at the time,

2575
02:31:11,800 --> 02:31:14,760
Speaker 1: got stuck in one in his limo and was like

2576
02:31:15,280 --> 02:31:17,640
Speaker 1: furious and so asked the police to crack down next time.

2577
02:31:17,959 --> 02:31:22,400
Speaker 1: It was a huge it was. It backfired massively politically,

2578
02:31:22,480 --> 02:31:26,280
Speaker 1: but it also created this opening for the the San

2579
02:31:26,320 --> 02:31:32,000
Speaker 1: Francisco Bicycle Coalition, which actually was an organization. Critical Mass

2580
02:31:32,120 --> 02:31:34,920
Speaker 1: was not an organization, right, It gave them this opportunity

2581
02:31:35,040 --> 02:31:39,120
Speaker 1: to say, well, what cyclists want is, you know, to

2582
02:31:39,200 --> 02:31:42,360
Speaker 1: actually build out the bike plan that supposedly exists, but

2583
02:31:42,520 --> 02:31:46,720
Speaker 1: nobody has been doing anything about it, right, So I

2584
02:31:46,760 --> 02:31:49,520
Speaker 1: mean that's probably maybe more than you wanted to know.

2585
02:31:49,680 --> 02:31:52,680
Speaker 1: But sort that that arc of critical mass as this

2586
02:31:52,840 --> 02:31:56,600
Speaker 1: sort of countercultural moment that created this opening for a

2587
02:31:56,680 --> 02:32:03,800
Speaker 1: more formal bicycle planning uh an advocacy organization or a

2588
02:32:03,840 --> 02:32:08,800
Speaker 1: set of organizations to emerge, right, Um, and maybe it's unfair.

2589
02:32:08,920 --> 02:32:10,240
Speaker 1: I think I probably do it in the book. It's

2590
02:32:10,240 --> 02:32:11,920
Speaker 1: a little bit unfair probably to call it a kind

2591
02:32:11,920 --> 02:32:15,400
Speaker 1: of depoliticization, but there was certainly a degree of kind

2592
02:32:15,440 --> 02:32:20,800
Speaker 1: of like explicit politics of sort of reclaiming the city

2593
02:32:20,879 --> 02:32:25,240
Speaker 1: more broadly from a kind of left perspective that does

2594
02:32:25,800 --> 02:32:28,520
Speaker 1: disappear somewhat in the sort of the rhetoric of the

2595
02:32:28,560 --> 02:32:31,000
Speaker 1: bike movement. Yeah, it's definitely it's definitely lost some of

2596
02:32:31,040 --> 02:32:34,000
Speaker 1: that like radical edge where these types of these types

2597
02:32:34,040 --> 02:32:36,320
Speaker 1: of you know, when when when like a hundred or

2598
02:32:36,400 --> 02:32:39,400
Speaker 1: two hundred people on bikes takeover streets in Portland every

2599
02:32:39,440 --> 02:32:41,560
Speaker 1: once in a while, it is way more in the

2600
02:32:41,640 --> 02:32:44,560
Speaker 1: form of like a big party, it's like it's it's

2601
02:32:44,640 --> 02:32:46,840
Speaker 1: it's like it's like a it's like a roving block party.

2602
02:32:47,080 --> 02:32:49,879
Speaker 1: It does not have that same level of like, yeah,

2603
02:32:49,959 --> 02:32:53,680
Speaker 1: almost like situationist creating a happening or creating a situation

2604
02:32:53,800 --> 02:32:56,240
Speaker 1: that that that affects the regular politics and affects the

2605
02:32:56,280 --> 02:32:59,600
Speaker 1: regular way that the city functions. Yeah, I mean, yeah,

2606
02:32:59,640 --> 02:33:03,960
Speaker 1: that being said, the sort of the successors, like bike

2607
02:33:04,040 --> 02:33:06,520
Speaker 1: Party in San Jose was a huge one, and this

2608
02:33:06,800 --> 02:33:10,080
Speaker 1: that bike party model kind of spread throughout California were

2609
02:33:10,160 --> 02:33:13,960
Speaker 1: often much bigger than Critical Mass, right, Um, a lot

2610
02:33:14,040 --> 02:33:17,800
Speaker 1: of times more diverse as well. Right, So there's there's

2611
02:33:17,800 --> 02:33:22,160
Speaker 1: a really interesting kind of politics around. Is the is

2612
02:33:22,200 --> 02:33:25,040
Speaker 1: the politics in the sort of explicit slogans or is

2613
02:33:25,120 --> 02:33:30,640
Speaker 1: the politics in sort of like showing people that there

2614
02:33:30,800 --> 02:33:34,840
Speaker 1: is a kind of collectivity that they might be part

2615
02:33:34,920 --> 02:33:38,160
Speaker 1: of simply by virtue of like moving through urban space

2616
02:33:38,240 --> 02:33:40,560
Speaker 1: in a different way. And for a lot of people

2617
02:33:40,600 --> 02:33:43,200
Speaker 1: it was their first time riding a bike in the

2618
02:33:43,360 --> 02:33:46,920
Speaker 1: city because they were so afraid of cars otherwise. Right,

2619
02:33:47,000 --> 02:33:51,080
Speaker 1: he had safety in numbers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it definitely, Um,

2620
02:33:51,480 --> 02:33:53,119
Speaker 1: I know for a lot of people that was the case.

2621
02:33:53,120 --> 02:33:55,160
Speaker 1: Like I've done some critical masses, I mean the UK,

2622
02:33:55,280 --> 02:33:58,560
Speaker 1: we had reclaimed the streets as well, like a similar

2623
02:33:58,680 --> 02:34:01,240
Speaker 1: vibe I remember in the Earth, I guess the first

2624
02:34:01,280 --> 02:34:04,640
Speaker 1: decade of this century, like there would be critical mass

2625
02:34:04,720 --> 02:34:09,280
Speaker 1: rights before antig eight protests, like I remember in Octorado

2626
02:34:09,320 --> 02:34:12,440
Speaker 1: in Scotland and things not into before that, and like

2627
02:34:12,840 --> 02:34:15,160
Speaker 1: before rather G eight protests would be mass rights. And

2628
02:34:15,240 --> 02:34:20,320
Speaker 1: it's a very different scene to like bike advocacy now, right, yeah, yeah,

2629
02:34:20,600 --> 02:34:22,440
Speaker 1: And you saw this a little bit with like the

2630
02:34:22,560 --> 02:34:30,360
Speaker 1: Occupy movement, the at least my experience of them, the

2631
02:34:30,560 --> 02:34:33,199
Speaker 1: sort of early wave of the Black Lives Matter movement

2632
02:34:33,280 --> 02:34:36,920
Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen with the killing of Trayvon Martin, there

2633
02:34:37,040 --> 02:34:46,240
Speaker 1: were a lot the bicycles seemed like an intuitive protest

2634
02:34:46,400 --> 02:34:49,360
Speaker 1: mode for many people, and that's probably sort of some

2635
02:34:49,480 --> 02:34:52,920
Speaker 1: of the cultural political tools of critical mass that sort

2636
02:34:52,959 --> 02:34:58,400
Speaker 1: of surface here and there. But I think for the

2637
02:34:58,640 --> 02:35:02,800
Speaker 1: twentieth anniversary, Chris Carlson, who was one of the early organizers,

2638
02:35:03,520 --> 02:35:07,000
Speaker 1: called it talks about critical mass all over the world,

2639
02:35:07,080 --> 02:35:09,400
Speaker 1: and that San Francisco felt kind of like the hole

2640
02:35:09,440 --> 02:35:11,360
Speaker 1: in the middle of the donut, right, like it sort

2641
02:35:11,400 --> 02:35:15,720
Speaker 1: of created this reverberation, but then it actually withered to

2642
02:35:15,879 --> 02:35:20,600
Speaker 1: a degree in in the center and often the narrative is, well,

2643
02:35:21,640 --> 02:35:25,400
Speaker 1: you're you're getting like you're winning, right, so critical mass

2644
02:35:25,480 --> 02:35:28,280
Speaker 1: is no longer necessary because you're getting bike lanes, you're

2645
02:35:28,360 --> 02:35:33,359
Speaker 1: getting um you know, you're getting investment, you're getting attention

2646
02:35:33,520 --> 02:35:38,920
Speaker 1: from planners, etc. Etc. Right. Obviously, Yeah, the gains, whatever

2647
02:35:39,000 --> 02:35:43,280
Speaker 1: they are, are pretty kind of geographically circumscribed. And that

2648
02:35:43,400 --> 02:35:45,040
Speaker 1: kind of relates back to how we kind of started

2649
02:35:45,080 --> 02:35:48,199
Speaker 1: by talking about how, you know, some cities are putting

2650
02:35:48,240 --> 02:35:51,720
Speaker 1: more development into bike infrastructure, but how it's being developed

2651
02:35:51,840 --> 02:35:55,200
Speaker 1: is not actually serving people who like I have to

2652
02:35:55,320 --> 02:35:57,200
Speaker 1: use a bike to commute because they don't owe a

2653
02:35:57,280 --> 02:35:59,000
Speaker 1: car and they can't afford a car, Like it's it's

2654
02:35:59,000 --> 02:36:01,440
Speaker 1: it's getting used to people who actually already have a

2655
02:36:01,520 --> 02:36:03,800
Speaker 1: lot of resources. And like an interesting case and point

2656
02:36:03,879 --> 02:36:07,040
Speaker 1: in this is the belt Line in Atlanta, which like

2657
02:36:07,200 --> 02:36:09,680
Speaker 1: started off in the you know as an idea in

2658
02:36:09,920 --> 02:36:13,360
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine with wanting to create like a giant

2659
02:36:13,440 --> 02:36:18,240
Speaker 1: loop using like public transit, having having rail going around

2660
02:36:18,280 --> 02:36:21,320
Speaker 1: the city, having bike having bike paths going all around

2661
02:36:21,360 --> 02:36:24,080
Speaker 1: the city, being able to like connect the city with

2662
02:36:24,280 --> 02:36:28,480
Speaker 1: these with these like spaces for like green space and

2663
02:36:28,520 --> 02:36:32,480
Speaker 1: affordable housing, and instead the project kind of manifested as

2664
02:36:32,560 --> 02:36:36,040
Speaker 1: this like like is this project that was had up

2665
02:36:36,080 --> 02:36:38,680
Speaker 1: by real estate companies to replace a whole bunch of

2666
02:36:38,840 --> 02:36:43,640
Speaker 1: low income neighborhoods with the massive amounts of like expensive

2667
02:36:43,680 --> 02:36:48,000
Speaker 1: restaurants and luxury condos and you know, putting putting the

2668
02:36:48,080 --> 02:36:51,039
Speaker 1: belt line and as a path to to create these

2669
02:36:51,120 --> 02:36:57,240
Speaker 1: like expensive, like gentrifying areas around the city. And it's

2670
02:36:57,280 --> 02:37:00,080
Speaker 1: how like these ideas can start off so good and

2671
02:37:00,200 --> 02:37:03,800
Speaker 1: that when they get like, you know, actually done, it's

2672
02:37:03,840 --> 02:37:07,200
Speaker 1: manifested in a way that is actually like not helpful

2673
02:37:07,240 --> 02:37:10,320
Speaker 1: to people who need this type of thing at all. Yeah, yeah,

2674
02:37:10,400 --> 02:37:14,080
Speaker 1: I mean the belt Line. I don't know enough about it.

2675
02:37:14,160 --> 02:37:15,800
Speaker 1: I've read I've read a little bit of the sort

2676
02:37:15,800 --> 02:37:18,560
Speaker 1: of academic literature, and I've been there, and it is

2677
02:37:18,600 --> 02:37:23,120
Speaker 1: really kind of interesting how it is. This It is

2678
02:37:23,200 --> 02:37:31,200
Speaker 1: this huge investment in the reconversion of infrastructure right to

2679
02:37:31,440 --> 02:37:35,560
Speaker 1: sort of restore the value of the land surrounding it,

2680
02:37:35,760 --> 02:37:39,800
Speaker 1: right sort of old rail, old industrial infrastructure. And that's

2681
02:37:39,840 --> 02:37:44,960
Speaker 1: something that I don't think that you can you're ever

2682
02:37:45,520 --> 02:37:48,160
Speaker 1: you know, people there are studies here and there that

2683
02:37:48,640 --> 02:37:52,000
Speaker 1: try to demonstrate the kind of the economic value of

2684
02:37:52,120 --> 02:37:57,680
Speaker 1: bicycle infrastructure. The contribution to tax, tax receipts, etc. Etc.

2685
02:37:58,520 --> 02:38:02,040
Speaker 1: But it gets pretty hard to parse the causality, um,

2686
02:38:03,240 --> 02:38:08,480
Speaker 1: especially when you're you know, especially when compared to something

2687
02:38:08,640 --> 02:38:13,040
Speaker 1: that is really sort of overhauling the space, right, I

2688
02:38:13,120 --> 02:38:17,360
Speaker 1: don't you know the belt belt line is it's I

2689
02:38:17,480 --> 02:38:22,240
Speaker 1: think probably it's success from a sort of financial perspective

2690
02:38:22,320 --> 02:38:26,320
Speaker 1: has to do with it being a multi use path,

2691
02:38:26,760 --> 02:38:32,760
Speaker 1: right yea, rather than it being bicycle infrastructure, um, and

2692
02:38:33,040 --> 02:38:37,959
Speaker 1: sort of being being framed as this much broader type

2693
02:38:37,959 --> 02:38:42,680
Speaker 1: of thing, right rather than um, a bike lane on

2694
02:38:42,760 --> 02:38:45,880
Speaker 1: a street, right yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not great

2695
02:38:45,920 --> 02:38:47,879
Speaker 1: to write down, like at least on the weekend, because

2696
02:38:47,879 --> 02:38:51,520
Speaker 1: you'll just be slow, full of full of people. It's

2697
02:38:51,560 --> 02:38:54,160
Speaker 1: full of Like when I when I when I was

2698
02:38:54,240 --> 02:38:56,760
Speaker 1: visiting last year during the start of summer, I went

2699
02:38:56,840 --> 02:38:59,600
Speaker 1: with a friend to the area by Ponce City Market,

2700
02:38:59,640 --> 02:39:02,279
Speaker 1: which is kind of a great example of the gentrifying

2701
02:39:02,440 --> 02:39:05,600
Speaker 1: force of of the belt Line, but also like, yeah,

2702
02:39:05,680 --> 02:39:07,760
Speaker 1: there's people who's trying, people who are trying to ride

2703
02:39:07,800 --> 02:39:10,359
Speaker 1: bikes around, but there's like kids on rollers, kids everywhere.

2704
02:39:10,760 --> 02:39:13,760
Speaker 1: There's it's it's it's pretty packed. It's getting it's it's

2705
02:39:13,800 --> 02:39:17,080
Speaker 1: getting pretty pretty warm um. But there's other parts that

2706
02:39:17,120 --> 02:39:20,040
Speaker 1: are like you know that are that are more isolated

2707
02:39:20,120 --> 02:39:21,920
Speaker 1: where it is much more of like a of like

2708
02:39:22,000 --> 02:39:24,720
Speaker 1: a commute path. But it's it's interesting. It's just like

2709
02:39:24,800 --> 02:39:26,840
Speaker 1: it like weaves in and out of these like retail

2710
02:39:27,320 --> 02:39:32,440
Speaker 1: and luxury apartment um, you know pop up exactly, and

2711
02:39:32,520 --> 02:39:35,279
Speaker 1: and all that stuff is is relative, is like relatively

2712
02:39:35,360 --> 02:39:38,279
Speaker 1: new for all the stuff that is like specifically surrounding

2713
02:39:38,320 --> 02:39:42,080
Speaker 1: the surrounding like the construction of the belt line. Yeah,

2714
02:39:42,640 --> 02:39:46,480
Speaker 1: and I mean the um, I think that you maybe

2715
02:39:46,600 --> 02:39:49,880
Speaker 1: see this just a little bit with like you know,

2716
02:39:50,560 --> 02:39:53,640
Speaker 1: the direction that I've taken this thinking about it is

2717
02:39:54,280 --> 02:39:56,920
Speaker 1: more the sort of the types of urban strategies that

2718
02:39:57,000 --> 02:40:01,640
Speaker 1: have begun to incorporate bicycle infrastructure, right, or active transportation

2719
02:40:01,720 --> 02:40:07,400
Speaker 1: more generally as the kind of big driving forces, rather

2720
02:40:07,520 --> 02:40:11,720
Speaker 1: than like is this bike lane here causing gentrification? It's

2721
02:40:11,840 --> 02:40:15,560
Speaker 1: usually it's often the other way around, right. Bicycle infrastructure

2722
02:40:15,640 --> 02:40:21,880
Speaker 1: sort of emerges as a result of gentrification, right or

2723
02:40:22,360 --> 02:40:27,039
Speaker 1: as a result of the in migration of people who

2724
02:40:27,160 --> 02:40:30,640
Speaker 1: are going to be listened to right because of their status,

2725
02:40:30,800 --> 02:40:35,920
Speaker 1: because of their income, because they have kind of existing

2726
02:40:37,560 --> 02:40:43,600
Speaker 1: capacities in organizing for these types of things, right, It's

2727
02:40:44,280 --> 02:40:48,560
Speaker 1: I think what's interesting is one of the one of

2728
02:40:48,600 --> 02:40:51,280
Speaker 1: the positions I've sort of come around to, right is

2729
02:40:52,000 --> 02:40:57,680
Speaker 1: thinking more about um not like should we do bicycle

2730
02:40:57,760 --> 02:41:01,400
Speaker 1: infrastructure because it might kind of create the perception of

2731
02:41:01,480 --> 02:41:04,920
Speaker 1: gentrification or cause gentrification or something like that, and instead,

2732
02:41:05,040 --> 02:41:07,600
Speaker 1: like you know what, one of the things that gentrification

2733
02:41:08,560 --> 02:41:11,920
Speaker 1: results from when you're thinking about amenities that sort of

2734
02:41:12,080 --> 02:41:16,320
Speaker 1: lead to the revalorization of urban space is that they

2735
02:41:16,360 --> 02:41:19,360
Speaker 1: are in some way special, right. And so if the

2736
02:41:19,480 --> 02:41:25,160
Speaker 1: question is the specialness of this particular place, you know, Garrison,

2737
02:41:25,240 --> 02:41:31,400
Speaker 1: as you said, what makes say, you know, the kinds

2738
02:41:31,440 --> 02:41:33,560
Speaker 1: of places where you can safely ride a bike are

2739
02:41:33,800 --> 02:41:37,640
Speaker 1: fairly unique, right, They're not well distributed, right, And so

2740
02:41:38,000 --> 02:41:41,760
Speaker 1: from my perspective, it's sort of the more routine they

2741
02:41:41,879 --> 02:41:47,440
Speaker 1: become as an as as you know, including them into

2742
02:41:47,959 --> 02:41:54,000
Speaker 1: urban space, the less special the places where they are

2743
02:41:54,200 --> 02:41:59,000
Speaker 1: built become. Right. And it's so routine that it wouldn't

2744
02:41:59,040 --> 02:42:03,440
Speaker 1: be worth mentioning, right, It's like mentioning that there is

2745
02:42:03,600 --> 02:42:06,720
Speaker 1: a sewer line, right, Like it's like mentioning that it

2746
02:42:06,920 --> 02:42:10,240
Speaker 1: has connection to city water, which okay, yeah, and you know,

2747
02:42:10,400 --> 02:42:13,520
Speaker 1: at the at the urban edge where I live. Um,

2748
02:42:14,200 --> 02:42:16,280
Speaker 1: I don't live at the urban edge, but at the

2749
02:42:16,440 --> 02:42:20,720
Speaker 1: urban edge in the southeast. Um, you know there isn't

2750
02:42:20,720 --> 02:42:23,560
Speaker 1: always connection to the city water. Um. Yeah, like trying

2751
02:42:23,560 --> 02:42:25,560
Speaker 1: to get it normalized to the point where it's like

2752
02:42:25,800 --> 02:42:28,080
Speaker 1: obvious that it's something that is like a part of

2753
02:42:28,120 --> 02:42:30,720
Speaker 1: the city. It's like yeah, like right, of course, it's

2754
02:42:30,920 --> 02:42:32,840
Speaker 1: it's just as normal as like a sidewalk or a

2755
02:42:32,920 --> 02:42:35,760
Speaker 1: road or like a power line, which when fair. I

2756
02:42:35,800 --> 02:42:38,040
Speaker 1: don't have any sidewalks on my street, and most of

2757
02:42:38,080 --> 02:42:40,680
Speaker 1: the streets around me have a sidewalk on on one side.

2758
02:42:40,760 --> 02:42:45,600
Speaker 1: Only Portland. Portland also has very has very few sidewalks. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

2759
02:42:45,959 --> 02:42:47,560
Speaker 1: you have this. Yeah. I lived in Belgium for a

2760
02:42:47,600 --> 02:42:49,480
Speaker 1: while when I was racing. It like, I lived in

2761
02:42:49,520 --> 02:42:51,560
Speaker 1: a town that was very much just to look, lots

2762
02:42:51,600 --> 02:42:54,800
Speaker 1: of Belgium is shitty, gray coal mining towns. I left Belgium.

2763
02:42:54,879 --> 02:42:57,320
Speaker 1: But this is the thing, and like, yeah, they would

2764
02:42:57,360 --> 02:42:59,959
Speaker 1: never have beat you know. The bike infrastructure is unremarked.

2765
02:43:00,400 --> 02:43:02,320
Speaker 1: It was just a thing that everyone used to go

2766
02:43:02,400 --> 02:43:04,800
Speaker 1: to the shops to go to school. It wasn't right

2767
02:43:04,879 --> 02:43:09,400
Speaker 1: lest like selling point for a branch restaurant yeah, and

2768
02:43:09,520 --> 02:43:12,600
Speaker 1: I think it's this kind of thing where it's bigger

2769
02:43:12,680 --> 02:43:15,760
Speaker 1: than just the infrastructure. Right. A lot of the places

2770
02:43:15,800 --> 02:43:19,680
Speaker 1: where bicycle infrastructure has been really successful, right are these

2771
02:43:19,760 --> 02:43:25,879
Speaker 1: sort of dense, relatively dense areas, actually not the densest areas,

2772
02:43:26,000 --> 02:43:29,119
Speaker 1: right where everything was in walking distance, but the area

2773
02:43:29,240 --> 02:43:34,800
Speaker 1: is kind of just beyond there, right where where there

2774
02:43:34,800 --> 02:43:41,520
Speaker 1: are you know, shops, places of employment, services, etc. Etc.

2775
02:43:42,560 --> 02:43:46,720
Speaker 1: All sort of within reasonable biking distance or maybe long

2776
02:43:46,879 --> 02:43:52,400
Speaker 1: walking distance, right, but too short to really merit a

2777
02:43:52,640 --> 02:43:56,520
Speaker 1: trip on a bus or a train, right, and you know,

2778
02:43:57,640 --> 02:44:00,280
Speaker 1: short enough that maybe some of us would feel a

2779
02:44:00,280 --> 02:44:02,320
Speaker 1: little bit silly getting in the car to go do it. Right,

2780
02:44:02,440 --> 02:44:06,560
Speaker 1: So that that kind of zone is also not terribly

2781
02:44:06,680 --> 02:44:09,039
Speaker 1: common in the United States, right. A lot of those

2782
02:44:09,120 --> 02:44:12,320
Speaker 1: places got destroyed to build highways, right, or got destroyed

2783
02:44:12,400 --> 02:44:17,240
Speaker 1: to build kind of suburban style shopping malls, and so

2784
02:44:17,440 --> 02:44:22,080
Speaker 1: that's part of their part of their specialness. But going

2785
02:44:22,160 --> 02:44:28,280
Speaker 1: back to the idea of you know, people in the

2786
02:44:28,440 --> 02:44:32,240
Speaker 1: places where people were really relying on bicycles, right, that

2787
02:44:32,400 --> 02:44:36,720
Speaker 1: there isn't necessarily infrastructure. It's partially a data issue. Going

2788
02:44:36,760 --> 02:44:38,920
Speaker 1: back to your data question, right, the way that we

2789
02:44:39,000 --> 02:44:44,280
Speaker 1: collect data on bicycling is people people bicycling to work. Right.

2790
02:44:45,800 --> 02:44:49,680
Speaker 1: If people aren't in the workforce or they happen to

2791
02:44:49,840 --> 02:44:56,119
Speaker 1: not have a job, that is not counted in the census, right,

2792
02:44:56,720 --> 02:45:00,320
Speaker 1: even if you bicycle to the train like I do.

2793
02:45:00,640 --> 02:45:03,000
Speaker 1: Like if I get to fill out the census, I'm

2794
02:45:03,040 --> 02:45:06,680
Speaker 1: going to fill out train, right, because that's the bulk

2795
02:45:06,720 --> 02:45:11,160
Speaker 1: of my journey when I commute. And so it skews

2796
02:45:11,440 --> 02:45:14,680
Speaker 1: your perception of where infrastructure might be needed if you're

2797
02:45:14,800 --> 02:45:22,320
Speaker 1: using data toward places that where people are commuting by bicycle, right,

2798
02:45:23,280 --> 02:45:25,680
Speaker 1: rather than you know, commuting is only a quarter to

2799
02:45:25,800 --> 02:45:27,760
Speaker 1: a third of all trips, right, rather than all the

2800
02:45:27,840 --> 02:45:31,160
Speaker 1: other trips that we don't know about. Right. And sometimes

2801
02:45:31,240 --> 02:45:35,560
Speaker 1: we measure them with passive measurement, like pressure sensors in

2802
02:45:35,600 --> 02:45:39,880
Speaker 1: the streets. Sometimes active measurement like people doing bicycle counts

2803
02:45:40,000 --> 02:45:43,040
Speaker 1: on particular days. Right, there's a whole history of that.

2804
02:45:43,200 --> 02:45:46,000
Speaker 1: Now we're using Strava. But then we're getting a small

2805
02:45:47,280 --> 02:45:49,640
Speaker 1: like we're getting a very rich data set about a

2806
02:45:49,720 --> 02:45:55,400
Speaker 1: small subset of cyclists and hoping that that extends to most,

2807
02:45:55,480 --> 02:45:59,320
Speaker 1: if not all cyclists. And then to your question started,

2808
02:46:00,640 --> 02:46:05,280
Speaker 1: I'll pause right to your question about the the the

2809
02:46:07,080 --> 02:46:12,120
Speaker 1: data question, right, how how deadly or how dangerous are

2810
02:46:13,320 --> 02:46:17,120
Speaker 1: various streets that don't have bike lanes. There is a

2811
02:46:17,240 --> 02:46:20,920
Speaker 1: big problem of the missing denominator. Right, We don't know

2812
02:46:21,040 --> 02:46:23,800
Speaker 1: how many people cycles, so we don't know the rates

2813
02:46:23,879 --> 02:46:29,240
Speaker 1: of injury on these particular roadways in the way in

2814
02:46:29,360 --> 02:46:32,680
Speaker 1: the same way that we do know car volumes and

2815
02:46:32,920 --> 02:46:35,400
Speaker 1: can have a better sense of the rates of injury

2816
02:46:37,600 --> 02:46:41,920
Speaker 1: based on collisions. Right, But you do see clusters of

2817
02:46:41,959 --> 02:46:48,960
Speaker 1: collisions in places where you know where they're large roads

2818
02:46:49,080 --> 02:46:53,840
Speaker 1: meeting where basically no very few if any traffic engineers

2819
02:46:53,879 --> 02:46:57,000
Speaker 1: would sign off on taking away some of that car

2820
02:46:57,080 --> 02:47:01,560
Speaker 1: capacity to create more safety for cycle. And of course

2821
02:47:01,800 --> 02:47:08,480
Speaker 1: those those kind of compound. Those factors kind of compound, Right.

2822
02:47:08,560 --> 02:47:11,240
Speaker 1: You maybe have an industrial area, it's a big interface

2823
02:47:11,360 --> 02:47:15,120
Speaker 1: with a large urban arterial or an off ramp to

2824
02:47:15,200 --> 02:47:18,080
Speaker 1: a highway. Right, these kind of all go together with

2825
02:47:18,600 --> 02:47:25,119
Speaker 1: um with potentially sort of lower lower income area are

2826
02:47:25,160 --> 02:47:31,080
Speaker 1: sort of a lower um less pressure to improve that

2827
02:47:32,200 --> 02:47:38,040
Speaker 1: that area. Yeah, So I'm thinking when I think about

2828
02:47:38,080 --> 02:47:41,800
Speaker 1: like how the bike movement missed an opportunity to be better,

2829
02:47:41,800 --> 02:47:43,959
Speaker 1: I always think about like this moment in twenty twenty

2830
02:47:44,040 --> 02:47:46,880
Speaker 1: when this man called Dijon Kizzie was killed by police

2831
02:47:47,400 --> 02:47:51,760
Speaker 1: in LA and the incident which led to the cops

2832
02:47:51,760 --> 02:47:54,200
Speaker 1: shooting him began because the cops tried to pull him

2833
02:47:54,240 --> 02:47:56,039
Speaker 1: over for running a stop sign on a bike, right,

2834
02:47:56,080 --> 02:47:59,320
Speaker 1: which is a thing that tenth of thousands of white

2835
02:47:59,360 --> 02:48:02,320
Speaker 1: dudes into Dex do every single day. In this kind

2836
02:48:02,320 --> 02:48:06,440
Speaker 1: of not a word was spoken by the bike movement,

2837
02:48:06,440 --> 02:48:09,160
Speaker 1: at least that I saw by bike folks, you know,

2838
02:48:09,320 --> 02:48:12,920
Speaker 1: in sort of solidarity or a position to what had happened. Right,

2839
02:48:13,160 --> 02:48:18,200
Speaker 1: It just it was just another thing that went mourned

2840
02:48:18,200 --> 02:48:21,560
Speaker 1: to buy thousands of people and ignored by others. So like,

2841
02:48:23,000 --> 02:48:25,520
Speaker 1: it made me think about it how we build Maybe

2842
02:48:25,560 --> 02:48:27,080
Speaker 1: it's wrong to think about how we build a better

2843
02:48:27,160 --> 02:48:29,440
Speaker 1: bike movement, and maybe it's better to think about how

2844
02:48:30,400 --> 02:48:32,680
Speaker 1: we make it unremarkable that you bike, right, we make

2845
02:48:32,720 --> 02:48:35,120
Speaker 1: it like not an identity thing. But how do we

2846
02:48:35,240 --> 02:48:38,760
Speaker 1: make cities where people are safe riding bikes I guess,

2847
02:48:38,920 --> 02:48:41,280
Speaker 1: regardless of whether they're wearing spandex or they're just trying

2848
02:48:41,320 --> 02:48:44,520
Speaker 1: to get to the shop ups. Yeah, I mean that's

2849
02:48:44,560 --> 02:48:49,320
Speaker 1: a really kind of an important question. And in my research,

2850
02:48:49,680 --> 02:48:51,640
Speaker 1: a lot of people were grappling with that. There was

2851
02:48:51,680 --> 02:48:55,840
Speaker 1: an incident that mercifully didn't result in someone being killed

2852
02:48:55,959 --> 02:48:58,160
Speaker 1: or seriously injured. But you know, a guy was pulled

2853
02:48:58,160 --> 02:49:01,720
Speaker 1: off of his bike by a police beaten up in

2854
02:49:01,959 --> 02:49:04,640
Speaker 1: San Francisco, and there was a big march afterwards, and

2855
02:49:04,800 --> 02:49:07,960
Speaker 1: some of the some bisuple advocates did show up, but

2856
02:49:08,040 --> 02:49:12,440
Speaker 1: it was not framed as this is something that you

2857
02:49:12,520 --> 02:49:15,920
Speaker 1: know is affecting us as cyclists, right, this is or

2858
02:49:16,080 --> 02:49:20,160
Speaker 1: that affecting some of us as cyclists, right, and an

2859
02:49:20,200 --> 02:49:22,280
Speaker 1: injury to one as an injury at all. Right, that's

2860
02:49:22,360 --> 02:49:24,400
Speaker 1: not that's not it was not the kind of the

2861
02:49:24,520 --> 02:49:28,320
Speaker 1: frame that that people were using to mud from what

2862
02:49:28,440 --> 02:49:33,520
Speaker 1: I could tell, right, Um, and you had bicycle you know,

2863
02:49:33,600 --> 02:49:36,760
Speaker 1: black bicycle advocates in East Oakland who didn't really frame

2864
02:49:36,800 --> 02:49:41,320
Speaker 1: themselves as bieula advocates necessarily in the traditional um or

2865
02:49:41,400 --> 02:49:44,480
Speaker 1: the mold that is sort of determined by the sort

2866
02:49:44,520 --> 02:49:48,640
Speaker 1: of the hegemonically kind of white middle class advocacy organizations. Right,

2867
02:49:48,720 --> 02:49:52,800
Speaker 1: But they were very much bicycle advocates who you know, um,

2868
02:49:54,200 --> 02:49:56,440
Speaker 1: a lot of were a lot of a lot of

2869
02:49:56,520 --> 02:50:00,120
Speaker 1: what they did was sort of like teaching people to

2870
02:50:00,280 --> 02:50:04,560
Speaker 1: ride correctly so that they would have fewer interactions with police,

2871
02:50:04,680 --> 02:50:10,959
Speaker 1: right or um kind of managing interactions with with police

2872
02:50:11,000 --> 02:50:15,119
Speaker 1: and you know, hopefully becoming well enough known as cyclists

2873
02:50:15,160 --> 02:50:18,640
Speaker 1: that they weren't kind of subject to the kinds of

2874
02:50:19,160 --> 02:50:24,400
Speaker 1: interactions that you know where people police end up killing somebody. Right. Um,

2875
02:50:25,320 --> 02:50:27,320
Speaker 1: Now that I live in a place where very few

2876
02:50:27,400 --> 02:50:30,600
Speaker 1: people bicycle to work or for much of anything, right,

2877
02:50:30,720 --> 02:50:37,520
Speaker 1: I'm thinking a bit more holistically about uh, you know,

2878
02:50:37,600 --> 02:50:39,960
Speaker 1: it's now kind of a buzz buzzword, but you know,

2879
02:50:40,040 --> 02:50:44,480
Speaker 1: a kind of a more car optional um city right

2880
02:50:45,000 --> 02:50:48,400
Speaker 1: where you don't need to have a car to do

2881
02:50:48,600 --> 02:50:52,480
Speaker 1: various things. You know, I'm I'm involved with bicycle advocates here,

2882
02:50:53,080 --> 02:50:55,960
Speaker 1: but like when I when I look around, I see

2883
02:50:56,080 --> 02:51:00,560
Speaker 1: like a bus stop that is a stick in a

2884
02:51:00,760 --> 02:51:04,360
Speaker 1: median right. There's no bench, there's no sidewalks to get

2885
02:51:04,400 --> 02:51:07,200
Speaker 1: to it, there's no crosswalks or anything like that. And

2886
02:51:08,240 --> 02:51:11,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that one of the bigger one

2887
02:51:11,520 --> 02:51:14,720
Speaker 1: of the bigger questions is to make a place that's

2888
02:51:15,480 --> 02:51:21,480
Speaker 1: safe for cyclists, safe for people walking, safe for people

2889
02:51:21,560 --> 02:51:24,640
Speaker 1: walking their bikes, or safe for people walking to transit.

2890
02:51:24,879 --> 02:51:31,840
Speaker 1: Right is reducing the kind of the space and the

2891
02:51:32,520 --> 02:51:35,720
Speaker 1: way that space and speed go together, right, that are

2892
02:51:35,760 --> 02:51:38,360
Speaker 1: devoted to cars, and a lot of that is like

2893
02:51:41,640 --> 02:51:46,640
Speaker 1: reducing the the the distances that people need to travel

2894
02:51:46,959 --> 02:51:49,480
Speaker 1: right for various things. Right. This gets into this sort

2895
02:51:49,520 --> 02:51:52,080
Speaker 1: of the fifteen minute city stuff, which is that it's

2896
02:51:52,120 --> 02:51:54,480
Speaker 1: been really wild to see it being turned into this

2897
02:51:54,720 --> 02:52:01,040
Speaker 1: like QAnon type, you know, Agenda twenty one, und black

2898
02:52:01,120 --> 02:52:05,240
Speaker 1: helicopters type of conspiracy theory, right, because I think of

2899
02:52:05,320 --> 02:52:10,040
Speaker 1: it as a very kind of milk toast type of

2900
02:52:10,120 --> 02:52:13,200
Speaker 1: policy framework that's honored in the breach, right, sort of

2901
02:52:13,240 --> 02:52:16,400
Speaker 1: like complete streets there's a carve out for unless the

2902
02:52:16,480 --> 02:52:18,800
Speaker 1: traffic engineer says it's not really feasible, and then we

2903
02:52:18,879 --> 02:52:21,680
Speaker 1: won't really question that judgment. We just won't do it, right. So,

2904
02:52:22,800 --> 02:52:25,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I do think it's bigger than modes of

2905
02:52:25,720 --> 02:52:29,400
Speaker 1: transport are really bigger than people's individual decisions or even

2906
02:52:29,560 --> 02:52:33,520
Speaker 1: like what the sort of once you are in your

2907
02:52:33,600 --> 02:52:39,520
Speaker 1: mode of transport, what the sort of behavioral matrix is? Right,

2908
02:52:39,640 --> 02:52:43,200
Speaker 1: It's sort of like what what is your life consist of? Right? Um,

2909
02:52:43,920 --> 02:52:48,119
Speaker 1: what what do you do to like preserve your dignity

2910
02:52:48,240 --> 02:52:50,960
Speaker 1: with your coworkers? Right? All of these kinds of things

2911
02:52:51,080 --> 02:52:56,120
Speaker 1: that feed people towards towards driving, except in you know,

2912
02:52:56,440 --> 02:53:00,400
Speaker 1: very specific places that you know have become special in

2913
02:53:00,440 --> 02:53:03,320
Speaker 1: the United States. I mean there's a lot, there's a

2914
02:53:03,400 --> 02:53:06,680
Speaker 1: lot to say, right. It is really it's much bigger

2915
02:53:06,720 --> 02:53:11,760
Speaker 1: than than bicycling. Um, it's the sort of the built environment.

2916
02:53:11,840 --> 02:53:14,320
Speaker 1: And I think one of the things that what I

2917
02:53:14,520 --> 02:53:18,600
Speaker 1: land on in the book, maybe belatedly, right because these

2918
02:53:18,680 --> 02:53:22,960
Speaker 1: these these things take years, is is this the way

2919
02:53:23,040 --> 02:53:28,960
Speaker 1: that bicycling is still kind of this interstitial solution, Right.

2920
02:53:29,080 --> 02:53:33,520
Speaker 1: It's sort of like kind of picking up scraps here

2921
02:53:33,560 --> 02:53:36,039
Speaker 1: and there in the built environment. Right, It's like picking

2922
02:53:36,120 --> 02:53:39,640
Speaker 1: up some of the loose ends right in how cities

2923
02:53:39,680 --> 02:53:45,280
Speaker 1: are organized that makes them frustrating difficult to navigate, right. Um.

2924
02:53:45,480 --> 02:53:48,720
Speaker 1: And you know, I think a lot of the energy,

2925
02:53:48,920 --> 02:53:53,640
Speaker 1: not exclusively certainly, And bicycle advocacy has become much more

2926
02:53:53,760 --> 02:53:56,440
Speaker 1: diverse in part through like listening to a lot of

2927
02:53:56,480 --> 02:54:02,720
Speaker 1: the voices of advocates of color and women advocates, and

2928
02:54:03,120 --> 02:54:08,160
Speaker 1: you know, um, kind of thinking beyond that sort of

2929
02:54:08,320 --> 02:54:11,760
Speaker 1: stereotypical you know, not just the middle aged man in

2930
02:54:11,840 --> 02:54:14,840
Speaker 1: micro but like the the sort of middle aged guy

2931
02:54:14,920 --> 02:54:18,640
Speaker 1: on us early. Right, you know that that maybe successor

2932
02:54:18,800 --> 02:54:22,120
Speaker 1: to the middle aged man in micro right, and certainly

2933
02:54:22,200 --> 02:54:27,480
Speaker 1: calling myself out, but the it's still very kind of

2934
02:54:27,520 --> 02:54:32,920
Speaker 1: an interstitial thing, right, Um. It's and the thing about

2935
02:54:33,040 --> 02:54:38,040
Speaker 1: the urban transportation systems in the United States is that

2936
02:54:38,280 --> 02:54:41,360
Speaker 1: they leave a lot of interstices, right, There's a lot

2937
02:54:41,480 --> 02:54:45,040
Speaker 1: of areas that are poorly served by anything but cars,

2938
02:54:45,200 --> 02:54:48,440
Speaker 1: and honestly poorly served by cars. You know, in Oakland

2939
02:54:49,160 --> 02:54:51,560
Speaker 1: you had people a lot of the sort of the

2940
02:54:52,600 --> 02:54:56,920
Speaker 1: maybe not anger but certainly annoyance at bicycle advocacy and

2941
02:54:57,000 --> 02:55:01,960
Speaker 1: bicycle infrastructure would and I think you see this in

2942
02:55:02,040 --> 02:55:04,560
Speaker 1: Portland too, where it's like we've been asking for sidewalks,

2943
02:55:04,600 --> 02:55:07,879
Speaker 1: We've been asking the city to to like fill these potholes,

2944
02:55:08,520 --> 02:55:11,840
Speaker 1: and instead there's these bike lanes that people who just

2945
02:55:12,080 --> 02:55:14,640
Speaker 1: got here are asking for, right, And so maybe that's

2946
02:55:14,640 --> 02:55:19,280
Speaker 1: a failure of solidarity on people coming, you know, people

2947
02:55:19,360 --> 02:55:22,360
Speaker 1: moving to a neighborhood. They they're like, why is it

2948
02:55:22,600 --> 02:55:26,879
Speaker 1: so torturous to get somewhere by bike? Rather than kind

2949
02:55:26,920 --> 02:55:30,040
Speaker 1: of maybe stopping and saying, all right, what what what

2950
02:55:30,200 --> 02:55:34,480
Speaker 1: have people been demanding here before I got here? Right? Um?

2951
02:55:35,000 --> 02:55:37,080
Speaker 1: And how can I sort of contribute to that as well?

2952
02:55:37,160 --> 02:55:40,560
Speaker 1: And sort of kind of merge our agendas potentially. Um,

2953
02:55:41,120 --> 02:55:43,200
Speaker 1: but it is this sort of it's a it's an

2954
02:55:43,400 --> 02:55:49,320
Speaker 1: interstitial um solution, right. And so from for me, you know,

2955
02:55:49,480 --> 02:55:53,560
Speaker 1: the bigger the bigger questions are sort of what what

2956
02:55:53,879 --> 02:56:00,240
Speaker 1: role will bicycles play when we start to really take

2957
02:56:00,440 --> 02:56:06,080
Speaker 1: seriously the kind of broader urban structure, So you don't

2958
02:56:06,120 --> 02:56:08,800
Speaker 1: have these sort of islands of bike ability inside a

2959
02:56:08,920 --> 02:56:13,360
Speaker 1: sea of automobility. Right, Um, do you have a situation

2960
02:56:13,480 --> 02:56:16,160
Speaker 1: where it actually becomes more practical to walk and take

2961
02:56:16,240 --> 02:56:18,720
Speaker 1: transit than it is to bike, right? I would call

2962
02:56:18,840 --> 02:56:21,960
Speaker 1: that a that a win, right? And I think you know,

2963
02:56:22,320 --> 02:56:24,880
Speaker 1: there's a there's a there's a degree to which we

2964
02:56:24,959 --> 02:56:27,960
Speaker 1: can get fixated on the particular mode of transport, I

2965
02:56:28,000 --> 02:56:29,800
Speaker 1: think because we all kind of like fell in love

2966
02:56:29,840 --> 02:56:32,680
Speaker 1: with bicycles and that was the sort of the the

2967
02:56:33,640 --> 02:56:37,920
Speaker 1: gateway drug into thinking about like transport and cities and

2968
02:56:38,080 --> 02:56:40,840
Speaker 1: how people move around and the sort of the history

2969
02:56:40,920 --> 02:56:44,040
Speaker 1: of urban planning. Right. So I mean these are all

2970
02:56:44,160 --> 02:56:47,240
Speaker 1: I don't know if I really kind of offered anything

2971
02:56:47,320 --> 02:56:50,360
Speaker 1: that sort of puts it all together nicely, right, Um,

2972
02:56:51,120 --> 02:56:56,039
Speaker 1: But the idea that it really does need to become

2973
02:56:56,200 --> 02:57:00,040
Speaker 1: normalized and if it actually sort of disappears in a

2974
02:57:00,200 --> 02:57:03,400
Speaker 1: process of being normalized and it stops being a signifier

2975
02:57:03,680 --> 02:57:09,280
Speaker 1: of environmental rectitude or something like that. And you know,

2976
02:57:09,440 --> 02:57:11,520
Speaker 1: if I could walk to a grocery store instead of

2977
02:57:11,600 --> 02:57:14,440
Speaker 1: having a bike to a grocery store, I would prefer that,

2978
02:57:14,640 --> 02:57:18,160
Speaker 1: honestly where I am right now, right, even though I

2979
02:57:18,240 --> 02:57:22,080
Speaker 1: love cycling, right and it's something that I'll never stop doing. Right.

2980
02:57:22,160 --> 02:57:25,320
Speaker 1: So I think kind of thinking more holistically about what

2981
02:57:25,600 --> 02:57:29,000
Speaker 1: kinds of cities we need to have to move beyond,

2982
02:57:30,800 --> 02:57:34,680
Speaker 1: move beyond automobility, both from a climate perspective and a

2983
02:57:34,800 --> 02:57:41,279
Speaker 1: social justice perspective and just almost like a thermodynamic perspective.

2984
02:57:43,560 --> 02:57:46,160
Speaker 1: So I mean that maybe that's the moving up to

2985
02:57:46,240 --> 02:57:50,360
Speaker 1: the level of physics is where one kind of place

2986
02:57:50,440 --> 02:57:54,520
Speaker 1: to end. Yeah, I think that's very good. Yeah. Is

2987
02:57:54,560 --> 02:57:58,480
Speaker 1: there anything you'd like to plug? Maybe people where people

2988
02:57:58,520 --> 02:58:00,520
Speaker 1: can find your book, where people can follow you online,

2989
02:58:00,680 --> 02:58:02,920
Speaker 1: and I think like that any sort of projects you're

2990
02:58:02,959 --> 02:58:07,600
Speaker 1: interested in, sure, Yeah, So, um My, you can find

2991
02:58:07,640 --> 02:58:10,720
Speaker 1: me on Twitter. I'm at jo st e h l

2992
02:58:10,800 --> 02:58:14,320
Speaker 1: i N. My book is now, it's few years old.

2993
02:58:14,360 --> 02:58:17,400
Speaker 1: It's twenty nineteen with University of Minnesota Press. It's all.

2994
02:58:17,600 --> 02:58:23,840
Speaker 1: It's called Cyclescapes of the Unequal City, and my latest

2995
02:58:23,879 --> 02:58:29,199
Speaker 1: work I'm actually looking at, um the politics of highway removal.

2996
02:58:29,959 --> 02:58:33,480
Speaker 1: So maybe scaling up in terms of infrastructure, thinking about

2997
02:58:34,000 --> 02:58:38,080
Speaker 1: sort of bigger the kind of the great clanking gears

2998
02:58:38,200 --> 02:58:43,680
Speaker 1: of urbanism rather than you know, this little tiny stretch

2999
02:58:43,800 --> 02:58:46,840
Speaker 1: of pavement on the side that's that's full of glass

3000
02:58:46,879 --> 02:58:48,720
Speaker 1: and car doors and stuff like that. So, but of

3001
02:58:48,800 --> 02:58:51,400
Speaker 1: course they all kind of fit together through what are

3002
02:58:51,480 --> 02:58:54,720
Speaker 1: the what how does the fabric of the built environment

3003
02:58:54,800 --> 02:58:57,959
Speaker 1: have to change in order to grapple with climate change,

3004
02:58:58,520 --> 02:59:02,160
Speaker 1: inequality and sort of making a sort of a more

3005
02:59:02,320 --> 02:59:06,520
Speaker 1: human type of city. Yeah, I think it's great. I

3006
02:59:06,520 --> 02:59:08,360
Speaker 1: think it's a wonderful place. Tran, thank you so much

3007
02:59:08,360 --> 02:59:10,800
Speaker 1: for giving us some of your afternoon. John. Yeah, thank you.

3008
02:59:11,160 --> 02:59:13,360
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you taking the time, and it was

3009
02:59:13,400 --> 02:59:17,120
Speaker 1: a really fun conversation. Hi podcast fans, it's me. It's Jones.

3010
02:59:17,200 --> 02:59:19,120
Speaker 1: And it's just a tiny little pickup that I wanted

3011
02:59:19,160 --> 02:59:20,640
Speaker 1: to add to the end of this episode because I'm

3012
02:59:20,680 --> 02:59:24,760
Speaker 1: neglected to mention that Si Klista Zene did call out

3013
02:59:25,040 --> 02:59:27,920
Speaker 1: the police killing of Dijon Kizzy very explicitly and had

3014
02:59:28,160 --> 02:59:30,760
Speaker 1: an excellent peace on it, as they do on lots

3015
02:59:30,800 --> 02:59:34,080
Speaker 1: of other things. They are incredibly wonderful and you can

3016
02:59:34,160 --> 02:59:37,040
Speaker 1: find them at si KLISTA zene c y c l

3017
02:59:37,120 --> 02:59:42,000
Speaker 1: I s t A z i ne dot com. They

3018
02:59:42,240 --> 02:59:44,440
Speaker 1: are not representative of the rest of the bike media,

3019
02:59:44,560 --> 02:59:47,160
Speaker 1: so well worth looking at if you like bikes and

3020
02:59:48,240 --> 02:59:51,800
Speaker 1: not the police murdering people. They're a wonderful publication. Okay,

3021
02:59:51,840 --> 03:00:11,519
Speaker 1: thanks bye, welcome too. It could happen here a podcast

3022
03:00:11,760 --> 03:00:17,440
Speaker 1: about things falling apart and sometimes putting things back together.

3023
03:00:18,120 --> 03:00:21,080
Speaker 1: And you know, today we're doing an episode that's kind

3024
03:00:21,080 --> 03:00:25,720
Speaker 1: of more on the intellectual and emotional end of a

3025
03:00:25,879 --> 03:00:29,200
Speaker 1: very specific set of things falling apart, and rather than

3026
03:00:30,080 --> 03:00:33,080
Speaker 1: clumsily try to introduce it myself, I'm going to bring

3027
03:00:33,200 --> 03:00:36,280
Speaker 1: on the person who who I think some of the

3028
03:00:36,720 --> 03:00:38,600
Speaker 1: thoughts that have kind of been going through my head,

3029
03:00:38,600 --> 03:00:40,120
Speaker 1: I know they've been going through the heads of a

3030
03:00:40,160 --> 03:00:41,600
Speaker 1: lot of the folks that we have here at cool

3031
03:00:41,640 --> 03:00:45,560
Speaker 1: Zone for quite some time now. Thoughtslime, you are a

3032
03:00:46,480 --> 03:00:51,840
Speaker 1: YouTuber and a good YouTuber who does a number of videos.

3033
03:00:52,080 --> 03:00:54,720
Speaker 1: Some of your recent ones are thoughts on ai art,

3034
03:00:55,600 --> 03:00:58,240
Speaker 1: A timeline of Elon's Twitter mistakes. You did a really

3035
03:00:58,320 --> 03:01:02,640
Speaker 1: fun video on the QAnon Queen of Canada, who is

3036
03:01:03,280 --> 03:01:07,760
Speaker 1: a pretty problematic character. Welcome to the show, Thanks for

3037
03:01:07,840 --> 03:01:10,360
Speaker 1: having me, Happy to be here. Do you want to

3038
03:01:10,400 --> 03:01:12,720
Speaker 1: just kind of start by reading us that thread? Because

3039
03:01:12,720 --> 03:01:14,240
Speaker 1: you posted this on Twitter the other day and I

3040
03:01:14,720 --> 03:01:17,000
Speaker 1: started chatting with it, and then we moved over to

3041
03:01:17,120 --> 03:01:20,280
Speaker 1: DMS and decided we should kind of do a little

3042
03:01:20,360 --> 03:01:24,959
Speaker 1: more formal thing. Yeah. So basically I said that I'm

3043
03:01:25,040 --> 03:01:28,400
Speaker 1: constantly considering making a Why I Left the Left video

3044
03:01:28,480 --> 03:01:31,200
Speaker 1: about how my views have not changed one iota, but

3045
03:01:31,280 --> 03:01:34,440
Speaker 1: I've become completely disillusioned about my role in communicating them.

3046
03:01:35,800 --> 03:01:37,800
Speaker 1: Part of the reason I shifted my focus to trying

3047
03:01:37,879 --> 03:01:40,440
Speaker 1: to be just entertaining is because deep down, I don't

3048
03:01:40,440 --> 03:01:42,680
Speaker 1: really see a lot of value in getting people on

3049
03:01:42,920 --> 03:01:45,520
Speaker 1: my side anymore. I don't think it does anything or

3050
03:01:45,640 --> 03:01:47,840
Speaker 1: means anything. But the best I can do is give

3051
03:01:47,879 --> 03:01:51,240
Speaker 1: you information and hopefully a laugh. I used to feel

3052
03:01:51,280 --> 03:01:53,879
Speaker 1: like I was participating in something bigger than I think

3053
03:01:53,920 --> 03:01:55,840
Speaker 1: A lot. Then I think I really am that I

3054
03:01:55,959 --> 03:01:58,640
Speaker 1: was helping in some small, in some small way towards

3055
03:01:58,680 --> 03:02:02,160
Speaker 1: a sort of shift towards more revolutionary mass consciousness. I

3056
03:02:02,240 --> 03:02:04,519
Speaker 1: think that was a bit of a childish fantasy. In retrospect,

3057
03:02:05,280 --> 03:02:08,320
Speaker 1: sometimes people will say, you made me an anarchist, and like, Buddy,

3058
03:02:08,600 --> 03:02:10,320
Speaker 1: I don't even think it matters that I myself am

3059
03:02:10,320 --> 03:02:12,800
Speaker 1: an anarchist, and I regret that that sort of we're

3060
03:02:12,879 --> 03:02:15,200
Speaker 1: fighting the good fight mentality has allowed some of the

3061
03:02:15,240 --> 03:02:17,959
Speaker 1: worst grifters on the platform to flourish by manipulating people's

3062
03:02:17,959 --> 03:02:21,280
Speaker 1: passions for their own weird, petty reasons. I think what

3063
03:02:21,400 --> 03:02:22,920
Speaker 1: I do has a lot of value, but I'm just

3064
03:02:22,959 --> 03:02:25,240
Speaker 1: saying that I think I perceive that value to be

3065
03:02:25,640 --> 03:02:27,200
Speaker 1: is a lot different than what I thought it was

3066
03:02:27,280 --> 03:02:30,600
Speaker 1: a few years ago. Is basically what I had to say, Yeah,

3067
03:02:31,440 --> 03:02:34,480
Speaker 1: that I think does such a good job of nailing

3068
03:02:35,320 --> 03:02:39,119
Speaker 1: the problem that I've been kind of dealing with emotionally

3069
03:02:39,160 --> 03:02:41,360
Speaker 1: as well, which is it's it's not It'd be easy

3070
03:02:41,400 --> 03:02:43,920
Speaker 1: to sum it up as like I no longer believe in,

3071
03:02:44,280 --> 03:02:47,840
Speaker 1: you know, trying to transmit you know, leftist ideas or

3072
03:02:48,320 --> 03:02:52,760
Speaker 1: political analysis, or that I don't believe in the value

3073
03:02:52,840 --> 03:02:56,760
Speaker 1: of like trying to inform people about the world, because

3074
03:02:56,760 --> 03:02:59,640
Speaker 1: that's not how I feel. But there is there has

3075
03:02:59,720 --> 03:03:01,920
Speaker 1: been a shift, and I think probably the high point

3076
03:03:02,000 --> 03:03:05,360
Speaker 1: for the version of me that was optimistic about the

3077
03:03:05,440 --> 03:03:10,160
Speaker 1: ability to use mass media to build power and the

3078
03:03:10,240 --> 03:03:12,600
Speaker 1: ability to take effective action on the left. I think

3079
03:03:12,680 --> 03:03:15,680
Speaker 1: that kind of crescendoed I'm gonna, I'm gonna say June

3080
03:03:15,720 --> 03:03:19,680
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty, um, and it had a pretty sharp

3081
03:03:19,879 --> 03:03:23,480
Speaker 1: drop after that point. And I both think it's it's

3082
03:03:23,600 --> 03:03:27,400
Speaker 1: valuable to still acknowledge kind of how remarkable what happened

3083
03:03:27,440 --> 03:03:29,440
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty was. For all of its flaws and

3084
03:03:29,560 --> 03:03:34,039
Speaker 1: all of the really messy fallout from it, we saw

3085
03:03:34,200 --> 03:03:38,040
Speaker 1: an ups an uprising of unprecedented scale. And part of

3086
03:03:38,160 --> 03:03:41,560
Speaker 1: why the crackdown in response has been so narly is

3087
03:03:42,080 --> 03:03:43,960
Speaker 1: that it scared the hell out of a lot of

3088
03:03:44,040 --> 03:03:50,640
Speaker 1: really unpleasant people. Um. And the media had a significant

3089
03:03:50,720 --> 03:03:52,280
Speaker 1: role to play in that, both in the fact that

3090
03:03:52,360 --> 03:03:53,960
Speaker 1: there were a lot of people who were who were

3091
03:03:54,080 --> 03:03:58,280
Speaker 1: kind of already organizing and radicalized when the ship started

3092
03:03:58,280 --> 03:04:02,000
Speaker 1: to hit the fan, and that as things happened, um,

3093
03:04:02,600 --> 03:04:05,320
Speaker 1: you know, the what was happening in the streets, what

3094
03:04:05,400 --> 03:04:07,960
Speaker 1: the police were doing, the different kind of marches and

3095
03:04:08,200 --> 03:04:12,360
Speaker 1: and different campaigns that were being started got spread to people.

3096
03:04:12,680 --> 03:04:15,160
Speaker 1: And I do think that you know, folks, you know,

3097
03:04:15,320 --> 03:04:17,320
Speaker 1: like you and me were a part of that. Although

3098
03:04:17,680 --> 03:04:20,000
Speaker 1: it never is far from my mind that the most

3099
03:04:20,080 --> 03:04:24,080
Speaker 1: influential piece of media that was that was recorded and

3100
03:04:24,160 --> 03:04:28,720
Speaker 1: disseminated during twenty twenty was the video of George Floyd

3101
03:04:28,959 --> 03:04:32,320
Speaker 1: being murdered, which was filmed by you know, someone who

3102
03:04:32,400 --> 03:04:34,640
Speaker 1: just happened to be nearby and had the courage to

3103
03:04:34,720 --> 03:04:39,040
Speaker 1: film it. Not a professional journalist, not a not an influencer,

3104
03:04:39,240 --> 03:04:42,680
Speaker 1: not a not somebody who was a professional political thinker,

3105
03:04:42,800 --> 03:04:47,600
Speaker 1: and everything else combined didn't have the influence of that video. Yeah,

3106
03:04:47,640 --> 03:04:49,240
Speaker 1: I think that that kind of gets to the heart

3107
03:04:49,280 --> 03:04:51,920
Speaker 1: of it, right, is that like we we express support

3108
03:04:52,480 --> 03:04:54,640
Speaker 1: for ideas, and thus people tend to treat us as

3109
03:04:54,680 --> 03:04:58,440
Speaker 1: though we are the progenitors of those ideas, or the

3110
03:04:58,959 --> 03:05:01,760
Speaker 1: the guardians of those ideas, or the leaders of a

3111
03:05:02,400 --> 03:05:08,000
Speaker 1: kind of decentralized proxy party of some kind. Yeah, it's

3112
03:05:08,120 --> 03:05:13,440
Speaker 1: it's it's both, because I think, thankfully there's that. I mean,

3113
03:05:13,480 --> 03:05:16,160
Speaker 1: there's there's always going to be every everyone who makes

3114
03:05:16,800 --> 03:05:20,520
Speaker 1: popular media gets forms a little cult, and so there's

3115
03:05:20,520 --> 03:05:23,200
Speaker 1: always going to be a number of people who, you know,

3116
03:05:23,360 --> 03:05:27,400
Speaker 1: take any given person in the media more seriously than

3117
03:05:27,480 --> 03:05:30,879
Speaker 1: they deserve, and that that includes the both of us.

3118
03:05:30,959 --> 03:05:33,480
Speaker 1: And that's that's not attempting to be that's not attempting

3119
03:05:33,560 --> 03:05:35,240
Speaker 1: to be like Humble or anything. That is simply a

3120
03:05:35,360 --> 03:05:38,119
Speaker 1: fact of how mass media works. Um. I do think

3121
03:05:38,200 --> 03:05:41,080
Speaker 1: we've seen. I think there's been a mix of a

3122
03:05:41,200 --> 03:05:45,800
Speaker 1: healthy pushback against looking at people who are doing creating

3123
03:05:45,879 --> 03:05:49,880
Speaker 1: popular media as more than what they are and more

3124
03:05:49,959 --> 03:05:52,440
Speaker 1: than what that media is capable of being. I think

3125
03:05:52,480 --> 03:05:54,879
Speaker 1: there has been a pushback against that in the last

3126
03:05:54,920 --> 03:05:56,840
Speaker 1: couple of years. It's been healthy, and I think there's

3127
03:05:56,840 --> 03:06:01,360
Speaker 1: been a pushback that's been unhealthy. People have forgotten some

3128
03:06:01,480 --> 03:06:04,320
Speaker 1: of the lessons of like one. I think a good

3129
03:06:04,360 --> 03:06:08,160
Speaker 1: example would be there was a very justified backlash against

3130
03:06:09,280 --> 03:06:11,280
Speaker 1: and when I say streamers here, I'm referring to people

3131
03:06:11,280 --> 03:06:13,680
Speaker 1: who are actually in the streets streaming during riots and

3132
03:06:13,760 --> 03:06:16,240
Speaker 1: protests and whatnot, right and that, and the justified part

3133
03:06:16,240 --> 03:06:18,560
Speaker 1: of that backlash was due to the fact that past

3134
03:06:18,600 --> 03:06:23,120
Speaker 1: a certain point, particularly those video those streams were primarily

3135
03:06:23,200 --> 03:06:26,560
Speaker 1: being used by law enforcement, both to get charges on

3136
03:06:26,680 --> 03:06:29,160
Speaker 1: people and to just to know where folks were as

3137
03:06:29,160 --> 03:06:32,320
Speaker 1: an intelligence gathering method. And I think that the backlash,

3138
03:06:32,440 --> 03:06:35,000
Speaker 1: which was understandable, and there was a lot of ugly behavior,

3139
03:06:35,040 --> 03:06:38,520
Speaker 1: including people who kind of got in after the early

3140
03:06:38,640 --> 03:06:41,000
Speaker 1: portions of that in order to make shitloads of money

3141
03:06:41,200 --> 03:06:43,560
Speaker 1: by you know, streaming people getting the shit beat out

3142
03:06:43,560 --> 03:06:46,200
Speaker 1: of them by the cops, and that was I think

3143
03:06:46,760 --> 03:06:52,000
Speaker 1: very justified, a pretty aggressive social response to that, but

3144
03:06:52,080 --> 03:06:53,520
Speaker 1: I think it's also caused a lot of people to

3145
03:06:53,560 --> 03:06:56,480
Speaker 1: forget that. A huge part of why things kicked off

3146
03:06:56,520 --> 03:06:58,440
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty and why so many people got involved

3147
03:06:58,520 --> 03:07:01,840
Speaker 1: was Nico from Uniform Corn on the ground every night

3148
03:07:01,920 --> 03:07:05,320
Speaker 1: in Minneapolis doing one of the most impressive pieces of

3149
03:07:05,760 --> 03:07:08,240
Speaker 1: citizen journalism that I think we've seen in this country.

3150
03:07:09,640 --> 03:07:12,600
Speaker 1: And so I do think that some of what's frustrating

3151
03:07:12,680 --> 03:07:15,400
Speaker 1: here is that it's difficult for people. It's difficult for

3152
03:07:15,560 --> 03:07:19,199
Speaker 1: us as a community to take some of the proper

3153
03:07:19,360 --> 03:07:22,440
Speaker 1: lessons from these things that are happening from the push

3154
03:07:22,520 --> 03:07:25,000
Speaker 1: and pull of the conflict that we all find ourselves in,

3155
03:07:25,560 --> 03:07:28,760
Speaker 1: in part because the nature of the way people express

3156
03:07:29,200 --> 03:07:34,560
Speaker 1: their understanding of these lessons via social media is very

3157
03:07:34,680 --> 03:07:37,040
Speaker 1: geared towards flattening them and making it a very simple

3158
03:07:37,080 --> 03:07:38,760
Speaker 1: matter of this is bad or this is good, and

3159
03:07:38,920 --> 03:07:41,120
Speaker 1: not well in this period of time, this worked and

3160
03:07:41,160 --> 03:07:43,720
Speaker 1: then it didn't. You know, there's no real sense of

3161
03:07:43,840 --> 03:07:49,320
Speaker 1: proportionality in these discussions. It isn't just a matter of like, hey,

3162
03:07:49,959 --> 03:07:52,080
Speaker 1: you fucked up. You should probably take this down, or

3163
03:07:52,200 --> 03:07:53,960
Speaker 1: this could be dangerous if you leave this up, or

3164
03:07:53,959 --> 03:07:56,400
Speaker 1: if you continue to do this. It's more so like

3165
03:07:57,080 --> 03:07:58,920
Speaker 1: what are you a cop? What are you some kind

3166
03:07:58,959 --> 03:08:02,320
Speaker 1: of cop doing this? Yeah, you know, let's let's spread

3167
03:08:02,400 --> 03:08:05,800
Speaker 1: that rumor around and it I mean, yeah, the cop

3168
03:08:05,879 --> 03:08:08,200
Speaker 1: jacketing thing is is kind of one part of the problem.

3169
03:08:08,200 --> 03:08:10,080
Speaker 1: But I want to focus a little bit on what

3170
03:08:10,160 --> 03:08:12,560
Speaker 1: you were talking about in terms of what do you

3171
03:08:12,760 --> 03:08:15,840
Speaker 1: think as you're kind of looking at you know, and

3172
03:08:16,080 --> 03:08:19,920
Speaker 1: we're all kind of staring twenty twenty four as it approaches,

3173
03:08:21,000 --> 03:08:25,600
Speaker 1: what do you think is useful from media that that

3174
03:08:25,720 --> 03:08:31,400
Speaker 1: attempts to analyze and share perspectives that are that are

3175
03:08:31,680 --> 03:08:34,560
Speaker 1: left wing, that are anarchists inclined. What do you think

3176
03:08:34,720 --> 03:08:39,320
Speaker 1: is actually the value that can be added to attempts

3177
03:08:39,400 --> 03:08:44,360
Speaker 1: to achieve greater justice in our society. Well, I think

3178
03:08:44,400 --> 03:08:48,360
Speaker 1: the answer is twofold. I think firstly, anything that drives

3179
03:08:48,400 --> 03:08:52,520
Speaker 1: people to like real life organizing and taking action outside

3180
03:08:52,560 --> 03:08:58,120
Speaker 1: of online spaces is obviously useful. UM. Beyond that, though, like,

3181
03:08:58,240 --> 03:09:03,880
Speaker 1: I think there is some value to just exposing people

3182
03:09:03,920 --> 03:09:07,800
Speaker 1: to ideas that they might not have found otherwise. But

3183
03:09:07,920 --> 03:09:11,440
Speaker 1: I think that, um, that a lot of that has

3184
03:09:11,680 --> 03:09:13,720
Speaker 1: been accomplished now. I feel like a lot of people

3185
03:09:13,760 --> 03:09:16,880
Speaker 1: are more familiar with with kind of the leftist the

3186
03:09:17,280 --> 03:09:22,119
Speaker 1: leftist idehology one on one type of content that people

3187
03:09:22,200 --> 03:09:25,760
Speaker 1: might expect in that way. So yeah, I would say

3188
03:09:25,800 --> 03:09:29,160
Speaker 1: those are the two value propositions. I wonder if you

3189
03:09:29,200 --> 03:09:32,680
Speaker 1: think a lot about because one thing that concerns me obviously, UM.

3190
03:09:33,400 --> 03:09:37,640
Speaker 1: Any community develops a language that is to some extent

3191
03:09:37,879 --> 03:09:42,760
Speaker 1: its own, UM, and that's that's a that's part of politics,

3192
03:09:42,920 --> 03:09:45,080
Speaker 1: you know, political analysis, if you're looking at things with

3193
03:09:45,120 --> 03:09:48,560
Speaker 1: a Marxist analysis, or if you're analyzing things you know

3194
03:09:48,879 --> 03:09:53,600
Speaker 1: based on your understanding of generations of anarchist political philosophy.

3195
03:09:53,640 --> 03:09:55,800
Speaker 1: There's terms that you're going to use that that other

3196
03:09:55,920 --> 03:09:58,880
Speaker 1: thinkers have created, that are the terms that people use

3197
03:09:58,920 --> 03:10:03,080
Speaker 1: to discuss those ideas. But it is sometimes kind of

3198
03:10:03,160 --> 03:10:05,080
Speaker 1: a thin line between that and the thing that colts

3199
03:10:05,120 --> 03:10:06,920
Speaker 1: do where they come up with a bunch of specific

3200
03:10:07,080 --> 03:10:09,720
Speaker 1: terms that no one else uses in order to separate

3201
03:10:09,800 --> 03:10:13,960
Speaker 1: a community from the rest from everyone else. And obviously

3202
03:10:13,959 --> 03:10:15,920
Speaker 1: I don't think there's any intentionality there. I don't think

3203
03:10:15,920 --> 03:10:19,520
Speaker 1: people who are talking about you know, the dialectic or

3204
03:10:19,600 --> 03:10:23,120
Speaker 1: whatever are attempting to separate their listeners from the mass

3205
03:10:23,200 --> 03:10:26,120
Speaker 1: of humanity. But I do think that happens sometimes. And

3206
03:10:26,720 --> 03:10:32,360
Speaker 1: when I listen sometimes to conversations on the left about justice,

3207
03:10:32,400 --> 03:10:35,800
Speaker 1: in particular about social justice, I wonder, like, well, how

3208
03:10:35,920 --> 03:10:38,960
Speaker 1: is somebody who isn't like reading all this shit going

3209
03:10:39,120 --> 03:10:42,080
Speaker 1: to interpret this? Is it just going to like sound

3210
03:10:42,120 --> 03:10:44,600
Speaker 1: like nonsense to them? And I think maybe like part

3211
03:10:44,640 --> 03:10:48,840
Speaker 1: of the purpose, the positive purpose of mass media that

3212
03:10:48,959 --> 03:10:52,320
Speaker 1: looks at things from the left is trying to communicate

3213
03:10:52,400 --> 03:10:54,680
Speaker 1: with folks who are not going to sit down or

3214
03:10:54,720 --> 03:10:56,720
Speaker 1: at least who have not yet sat down and done

3215
03:10:56,720 --> 03:10:59,400
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of reading on the history and the politics,

3216
03:10:59,440 --> 03:11:01,760
Speaker 1: but whose heart are in the right place, and who

3217
03:11:01,879 --> 03:11:05,640
Speaker 1: I would like to be able to engage in conversations

3218
03:11:06,080 --> 03:11:09,360
Speaker 1: with folks who maybe kind of get their heads a

3219
03:11:09,440 --> 03:11:14,160
Speaker 1: little bit too full of specific terminology. Sometimes I think

3220
03:11:14,200 --> 03:11:18,200
Speaker 1: it's it's a specific balancing act because on the other hand,

3221
03:11:18,280 --> 03:11:19,920
Speaker 1: like you also have to give your audience a little

3222
03:11:19,959 --> 03:11:25,440
Speaker 1: credit that they're absolutely but I think that like you

3223
03:11:25,560 --> 03:11:27,520
Speaker 1: have to be able to meet people where they're at.

3224
03:11:27,600 --> 03:11:30,280
Speaker 1: But at the same time, like, if someone has expressed

3225
03:11:30,360 --> 03:11:35,080
Speaker 1: this idea in a way that's already sufficient, like it's it's, uh,

3226
03:11:35,440 --> 03:11:38,480
Speaker 1: why do the work of like trying to re explain that,

3227
03:11:38,640 --> 03:11:41,240
Speaker 1: you know. But that being said, I think there is

3228
03:11:41,240 --> 03:11:45,160
Speaker 1: a tendency to just assume people already are on our

3229
03:11:45,200 --> 03:11:49,480
Speaker 1: side or understand ideas to the level of complexity that

3230
03:11:49,600 --> 03:11:52,280
Speaker 1: we might like and that people are on board with,

3231
03:11:52,480 --> 03:11:56,520
Speaker 1: like what even something as simple as what capitalism means.

3232
03:11:56,840 --> 03:11:59,720
Speaker 1: You know, all the time you see people online who

3233
03:11:59,800 --> 03:12:04,800
Speaker 1: will say that, Like a musician will post their band

3234
03:12:04,920 --> 03:12:07,120
Speaker 1: campage and people will be like, oh, I thought you

3235
03:12:07,200 --> 03:12:11,960
Speaker 1: were anti capitalist. You know. Yeah, it's it's like you know,

3236
03:12:13,120 --> 03:12:15,040
Speaker 1: but like you also can't get caught up in the

3237
03:12:15,920 --> 03:12:21,560
Speaker 1: kind of um weaponized ignorance that the people you know

3238
03:12:21,800 --> 03:12:25,640
Speaker 1: like you. You can't make someone understand something if they

3239
03:12:25,720 --> 03:12:29,440
Speaker 1: have a particular reason not to want to. So I

3240
03:12:29,720 --> 03:12:33,240
Speaker 1: absolutely agree that, like there's the danger of that that

3241
03:12:33,440 --> 03:12:38,480
Speaker 1: group in speak, uh, but it's it's a it's a

3242
03:12:38,560 --> 03:12:40,720
Speaker 1: difficult problem to solve. I think the kind of approach

3243
03:12:40,800 --> 03:12:43,080
Speaker 1: I take to it most of the time is that

3244
03:12:43,200 --> 03:12:48,560
Speaker 1: I tend to write my scripts as the as though

3245
03:12:48,680 --> 03:12:53,680
Speaker 1: I am uh just the like like a child. Like

3246
03:12:53,800 --> 03:12:56,880
Speaker 1: I try to write as though I'm speaking to a

3247
03:12:56,959 --> 03:13:00,520
Speaker 1: five year old, you know, Yeah, I mean, and I

3248
03:13:00,640 --> 03:13:03,040
Speaker 1: think I also I think a lot about and this

3249
03:13:03,200 --> 03:13:05,440
Speaker 1: is something you know here at cool Zone I've brought

3250
03:13:05,520 --> 03:13:08,680
Speaker 1: we brought on a couple of years ago, people who

3251
03:13:08,959 --> 03:13:13,240
Speaker 1: you know, are now making podcasts for the team who

3252
03:13:13,720 --> 03:13:16,080
Speaker 1: when we brought them on had a lot less experience

3253
03:13:16,800 --> 03:13:20,720
Speaker 1: writing scripts and making media for mass consumption. And one

3254
03:13:20,760 --> 03:13:22,680
Speaker 1: of the things that I found it was kind of

3255
03:13:22,760 --> 03:13:26,000
Speaker 1: like my job to do repeatedly was to point out,

3256
03:13:26,040 --> 03:13:28,280
Speaker 1: like Okay, stop, go actually go back to that term

3257
03:13:28,320 --> 03:13:31,000
Speaker 1: because you you just you know, said a term that

3258
03:13:31,520 --> 03:13:33,600
Speaker 1: I think means a specific or you just referenced a

3259
03:13:33,680 --> 03:13:36,880
Speaker 1: thing from history that I think that people are interested

3260
03:13:36,920 --> 03:13:38,720
Speaker 1: in and should know about. But you do have to

3261
03:13:38,840 --> 03:13:42,000
Speaker 1: like go in and explain it and walk people through it.

3262
03:13:43,280 --> 03:13:45,320
Speaker 1: And that's kind of part of That's really one of

3263
03:13:45,360 --> 03:13:48,920
Speaker 1: the challenges I find, particularly with um with Behind the

3264
03:13:49,000 --> 03:13:53,600
Speaker 1: Bastards right where we're talking sometimes about these complicated social

3265
03:13:53,680 --> 03:13:56,360
Speaker 1: movements and moments in history, and it's this kind of

3266
03:13:56,440 --> 03:13:59,680
Speaker 1: tug of war between you want to respect the intelligence

3267
03:13:59,800 --> 03:14:02,720
Speaker 1: of the audience and you want to give them enough

3268
03:14:02,800 --> 03:14:05,040
Speaker 1: detail that they have contexts and that that can maybe

3269
03:14:05,120 --> 03:14:08,120
Speaker 1: understand multiple sides of it. But also you can't get

3270
03:14:08,200 --> 03:14:10,440
Speaker 1: bogged down in every detail otherwise you're never going to

3271
03:14:10,520 --> 03:14:12,920
Speaker 1: finish the damn thing. And we can't all be Dan

3272
03:14:13,080 --> 03:14:17,520
Speaker 1: Carlin making ten hour long podcasts unfortunately. I do like

3273
03:14:18,160 --> 03:14:20,879
Speaker 1: there's a degree to which I'm quite jealous of his work,

3274
03:14:21,920 --> 03:14:24,200
Speaker 1: the way he set up his workload. But I would

3275
03:14:24,240 --> 03:14:29,000
Speaker 1: just never be able to think of that many boxing analogies. Yeah,

3276
03:14:29,040 --> 03:14:31,640
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know very much about boxing. I

3277
03:14:31,680 --> 03:14:33,720
Speaker 1: would probably just like throw in a whole lot of

3278
03:14:33,760 --> 03:14:36,600
Speaker 1: balls mahoney analogy, Yeah, a lot of For me, it

3279
03:14:36,640 --> 03:14:38,800
Speaker 1: would be a lot of super punch out references. Like

3280
03:14:38,920 --> 03:14:42,520
Speaker 1: hell yes, stan Lee would always say to comic book

3281
03:14:42,560 --> 03:14:46,160
Speaker 1: writers that every comic is somebody's first comic, and so

3282
03:14:46,640 --> 03:14:49,480
Speaker 1: you kind of have to consider that, like every piece

3283
03:14:49,520 --> 03:14:52,160
Speaker 1: of messaging you do might this might be like the

3284
03:14:52,320 --> 03:14:54,879
Speaker 1: first time someone is stepping out of a completely different

3285
03:14:54,959 --> 03:14:58,560
Speaker 1: ideological bubble than you might expect, and so you know,

3286
03:14:58,640 --> 03:15:00,600
Speaker 1: it kind of has the messaging kind has to stand

3287
03:15:00,640 --> 03:15:03,000
Speaker 1: on its own. But I think that's also like a

3288
03:15:03,160 --> 03:15:06,080
Speaker 1: unique problem to mass media because it also means that,

3289
03:15:06,200 --> 03:15:08,480
Speaker 1: in a sense, it's much harder to like build on

3290
03:15:08,760 --> 03:15:13,360
Speaker 1: previous work. It's harder to go from your one on

3291
03:15:13,480 --> 03:15:16,160
Speaker 1: one content and then get to the more advanced subjects,

3292
03:15:16,480 --> 03:15:19,160
Speaker 1: because someone could just start at the more advanced part

3293
03:15:19,200 --> 03:15:22,440
Speaker 1: and get lost. I think that's a really apt way

3294
03:15:22,520 --> 03:15:25,280
Speaker 1: of describing what I also find as one of the

3295
03:15:25,400 --> 03:15:29,800
Speaker 1: central problems, because a ton of the episodes of Bastards,

3296
03:15:29,920 --> 03:15:33,920
Speaker 1: especially the stuff when we focus on fascists, builds on itself.

3297
03:15:34,040 --> 03:15:39,280
Speaker 1: Right you, your understanding of fascism in Romania will be

3298
03:15:39,400 --> 03:15:43,120
Speaker 1: influenced and is to some degree. You don't really you

3299
03:15:43,200 --> 03:15:47,000
Speaker 1: can't understand fascism in Romania without understanding fascism and vimar

3300
03:15:47,040 --> 03:15:49,840
Speaker 1: fascism in Italy, fascism in the United States during the

3301
03:15:49,920 --> 03:15:54,480
Speaker 1: same period, and vice versa. And so my hope is

3302
03:15:54,520 --> 03:15:56,760
Speaker 1: that the people who catch all of the episodes are

3303
03:15:56,840 --> 03:16:02,199
Speaker 1: building a really complex and durable understanding of the problem

3304
03:16:02,320 --> 03:16:04,879
Speaker 1: through it. But it's also the struggle of like, well,

3305
03:16:04,920 --> 03:16:06,160
Speaker 1: a lot of people who are just going to be like,

3306
03:16:06,600 --> 03:16:09,440
Speaker 1: oh shit, I know Hitler, but I maybe I'm not

3307
03:16:09,560 --> 03:16:12,040
Speaker 1: interested in hearing about romania, you know, and I'm not

3308
03:16:12,080 --> 03:16:14,840
Speaker 1: going to click on those episodes. And there's nothing against people.

3309
03:16:14,920 --> 03:16:17,480
Speaker 1: Like when I listen to podcasts, I find myself doing

3310
03:16:17,560 --> 03:16:19,760
Speaker 1: the same thing where it's like there's a million episodes

3311
03:16:19,800 --> 03:16:21,280
Speaker 1: of this show, I'm not going to listen. I don't

3312
03:16:21,280 --> 03:16:23,560
Speaker 1: I don't have the time to listen to all of them. Sure. Yeah,

3313
03:16:23,959 --> 03:16:27,760
Speaker 1: And that touches on another problem, which is that, you know,

3314
03:16:27,959 --> 03:16:31,760
Speaker 1: the subjects that people like us tend to cover are

3315
03:16:31,879 --> 03:16:35,080
Speaker 1: biased towards what we think people will find interesting, yeah,

3316
03:16:35,520 --> 03:16:38,240
Speaker 1: you know, and beyond that, like what we ourselves find

3317
03:16:38,320 --> 03:16:41,080
Speaker 1: interesting to research, Yeah, and what in what you can

3318
03:16:41,240 --> 03:16:43,560
Speaker 1: And this is a thing that I try to point

3319
03:16:43,600 --> 03:16:46,160
Speaker 1: out on my subreddit sometimes when people are like I

3320
03:16:46,240 --> 03:16:47,959
Speaker 1: can't believe you haven't done this guy or that guy,

3321
03:16:48,000 --> 03:16:51,080
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, that doing that research is going

3322
03:16:51,120 --> 03:16:53,080
Speaker 1: to fuck me up, and like, so I'm not going

3323
03:16:53,120 --> 03:16:55,040
Speaker 1: to do it yet. I'm gonna do this thing. That's funny.

3324
03:16:55,040 --> 03:16:56,840
Speaker 1: I'm gonna read about the liver king this week. I

3325
03:16:56,959 --> 03:16:58,920
Speaker 1: need I need a break. So the liver king is

3326
03:16:58,959 --> 03:17:03,480
Speaker 1: who we're talking about. Yeah, everybody needs a liver king

3327
03:17:03,560 --> 03:17:06,640
Speaker 1: in their life at some point. Yeah, it's like, um,

3328
03:17:07,480 --> 03:17:10,240
Speaker 1: I read the Turner Diaries for one video. Yeah, And

3329
03:17:10,800 --> 03:17:13,200
Speaker 1: I've been constant. People have been constantly like, oh, you

3330
03:17:13,200 --> 03:17:16,199
Speaker 1: should read Camp of the Saints, you should read Siege.

3331
03:17:16,240 --> 03:17:18,000
Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh, I don't know if I want to.

3332
03:17:18,520 --> 03:17:20,080
Speaker 1: First of all, I don't even know if I want

3333
03:17:20,160 --> 03:17:23,840
Speaker 1: those things on my hard drive. Yeah. Yeah, Camp of

3334
03:17:23,920 --> 03:17:26,840
Speaker 1: the Saints is a little easier, but yeah, maybe maybe

3335
03:17:26,959 --> 03:17:29,320
Speaker 1: one of those a year and no more. That's like

3336
03:17:29,440 --> 03:17:34,760
Speaker 1: the most I would recommend from like a mental health standpoint.

3337
03:17:35,560 --> 03:17:38,360
Speaker 1: It's also like you don't need to read the full

3338
03:17:38,400 --> 03:17:40,160
Speaker 1: text of all of those. I mean, that's part of

3339
03:17:40,200 --> 03:17:41,760
Speaker 1: the thing is that like you can get a lot

3340
03:17:42,360 --> 03:17:46,640
Speaker 1: by checking in some exerpts and reading scholarly papers analyzing

3341
03:17:46,720 --> 03:17:49,720
Speaker 1: this stuff, and they're there always will be that, um,

3342
03:17:50,040 --> 03:17:53,760
Speaker 1: and I think to a significant standpoint, like it's more

3343
03:17:53,920 --> 03:17:58,120
Speaker 1: important to understand, you know. And this isn't true for everybody,

3344
03:17:58,120 --> 03:18:00,600
Speaker 1: because there's some people who you know, are scholars of

3345
03:18:00,680 --> 03:18:03,000
Speaker 1: this stuff, and you do need to to to do

3346
03:18:03,120 --> 03:18:05,480
Speaker 1: the deep reading. But if you want to understand the

3347
03:18:05,720 --> 03:18:09,600
Speaker 1: degree to which Siege and the Turner Diers Diaries influence

3348
03:18:09,680 --> 03:18:11,800
Speaker 1: the mass shootings that we see in the United States

3349
03:18:11,840 --> 03:18:13,520
Speaker 1: state that are carried out by the far right. You

3350
03:18:13,560 --> 03:18:15,280
Speaker 1: don't need to read those books to do that, right.

3351
03:18:15,320 --> 03:18:18,000
Speaker 1: There's plenty of really good scholarly analysis and that's part

3352
03:18:18,040 --> 03:18:20,160
Speaker 1: of what you and I try to do for people.

3353
03:18:20,879 --> 03:18:23,080
Speaker 1: Um and what what other you know, folks who are

3354
03:18:23,320 --> 03:18:27,360
Speaker 1: creating this kind of media other journalists do for folks. Yeah,

3355
03:18:27,440 --> 03:18:31,240
Speaker 1: I will. I would say that I strongly balk at

3356
03:18:31,440 --> 03:18:36,240
Speaker 1: the I don't consider myself a journalist. Um yeah, I mean,

3357
03:18:36,280 --> 03:18:40,160
Speaker 1: and I don't consider that's something people talk about as well.

3358
03:18:40,280 --> 03:18:42,959
Speaker 1: On the subreddit, I get a lot of like comments

3359
03:18:43,040 --> 03:18:46,160
Speaker 1: on people appreciating the journalism in the series, and we

3360
03:18:46,320 --> 03:18:49,320
Speaker 1: do in some of our shows, like you know we

3361
03:18:49,440 --> 03:18:51,760
Speaker 1: did we went to the Border, mean mar last year.

3362
03:18:51,840 --> 03:18:55,039
Speaker 1: Garrison just got back from cop City. But like Bastards,

3363
03:18:55,120 --> 03:18:58,560
Speaker 1: isn't journalism, you know, sometimes it's like celebrating journalism, but

3364
03:18:58,640 --> 03:19:01,600
Speaker 1: it's it's it's inner detainment that I hope has like

3365
03:19:01,720 --> 03:19:05,480
Speaker 1: an educational quality to it. Yeah, it's I don't. I

3366
03:19:05,560 --> 03:19:08,480
Speaker 1: don't say this to belittle myself. I just don't see

3367
03:19:08,520 --> 03:19:10,959
Speaker 1: that as as the function of my job. I think,

3368
03:19:11,040 --> 03:19:14,400
Speaker 1: like like I have I have in the in the

3369
03:19:14,560 --> 03:19:18,160
Speaker 1: course of my work, occasionally done journalism by accidents. I

3370
03:19:18,240 --> 03:19:21,880
Speaker 1: did a long interview where I had like about the

3371
03:19:22,040 --> 03:19:24,600
Speaker 1: chas and and kind of the misconceptions that people had,

3372
03:19:24,640 --> 03:19:26,920
Speaker 1: and I had some you know, talks with people within

3373
03:19:27,080 --> 03:19:29,879
Speaker 1: and like that is technically, on its face a piece

3374
03:19:29,920 --> 03:19:33,520
Speaker 1: of journalism for sure. You know, absolutely it's not what

3375
03:19:33,760 --> 03:19:39,600
Speaker 1: I consider my uh strength or role to be well.

3376
03:19:39,600 --> 03:19:41,240
Speaker 1: And I honestly this goes back to what we were

3377
03:19:41,240 --> 03:19:44,560
Speaker 1: talking about with the young woman who filmed the video

3378
03:19:44,879 --> 03:19:49,400
Speaker 1: of of George Floyd. Um. Journalism is a profession, but

3379
03:19:49,480 --> 03:19:52,200
Speaker 1: it's also just like a set of tools, and that

3380
03:19:52,440 --> 03:19:55,200
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes you will use those tools in order

3381
03:19:55,280 --> 03:19:57,840
Speaker 1: to do other things. You know that that's that's certainly true.

3382
03:19:58,520 --> 03:20:01,080
Speaker 1: I'm curious you and I. You and I both kind

3383
03:20:01,120 --> 03:20:06,920
Speaker 1: of uh like make our our our work work uh differently.

3384
03:20:07,240 --> 03:20:10,880
Speaker 1: M Mine's ad supported obviously, So my conversation with fans,

3385
03:20:11,560 --> 03:20:13,560
Speaker 1: you know, outside of like when I'm doing a live

3386
03:20:13,640 --> 03:20:15,880
Speaker 1: show is primarily through we have a subreddit and we

3387
03:20:15,959 --> 03:20:19,840
Speaker 1: have Twitter, um, and that's uh, you know, there's some

3388
03:20:19,959 --> 03:20:23,840
Speaker 1: difficulty there. For one thing, like every single guest we have,

3389
03:20:24,080 --> 03:20:26,120
Speaker 1: there are people who will be like, this is the

3390
03:20:26,200 --> 03:20:28,480
Speaker 1: best guests you've ever had? And this person is the

3391
03:20:28,520 --> 03:20:31,360
Speaker 1: worst guest you've ever had, and there's absolutely no way

3392
03:20:31,400 --> 03:20:34,680
Speaker 1: to make decisions based on that, right, it's just so much. Um.

3393
03:20:35,400 --> 03:20:38,280
Speaker 1: You you've got a different relationship, or at least a

3394
03:20:38,320 --> 03:20:41,400
Speaker 1: different method of I think communicating. I imagine it's different,

3395
03:20:41,600 --> 03:20:45,440
Speaker 1: um because because your your Patreon supported I'm interested in

3396
03:20:45,680 --> 03:20:47,760
Speaker 1: how have I if at all? Have you seen kind

3397
03:20:47,760 --> 03:20:51,800
Speaker 1: of the conversations about what people want from you and

3398
03:20:52,640 --> 03:20:54,360
Speaker 1: you know the way in which you've been talking with

3399
03:20:54,400 --> 03:20:58,520
Speaker 1: your fans. How have you seen that change since twenty twenty? Well, Um,

3400
03:20:59,360 --> 03:21:02,480
Speaker 1: I think one of the major ways is since I've

3401
03:21:02,600 --> 03:21:06,560
Speaker 1: kind of taken a step back from this explicitly political content,

3402
03:21:06,840 --> 03:21:09,760
Speaker 1: it's a lot of people have kind of encouraged me

3403
03:21:09,840 --> 03:21:12,840
Speaker 1: to go more in that direction, and I have seen

3404
03:21:12,959 --> 03:21:16,000
Speaker 1: like a big drop in my support as a result.

3405
03:21:18,760 --> 03:21:22,760
Speaker 1: I think that it's it's a tricky balance to strike again.

3406
03:21:22,920 --> 03:21:27,160
Speaker 1: Many of these things are like such a balancing act

3407
03:21:27,280 --> 03:21:32,199
Speaker 1: because I always am careful to remind people that, like, hey,

3408
03:21:33,200 --> 03:21:35,960
Speaker 1: you can support me on Patreon if you like what

3409
03:21:36,120 --> 03:21:37,800
Speaker 1: I'm doing and want there to be more of it,

3410
03:21:38,280 --> 03:21:41,280
Speaker 1: but please don't operate under the assumption that doing so

3411
03:21:42,400 --> 03:21:46,480
Speaker 1: is activism or contributes to activism, because it is not

3412
03:21:47,000 --> 03:21:52,200
Speaker 1: you are not like making the revolution more than exactly

3413
03:21:52,360 --> 03:21:54,480
Speaker 1: you know, you are getting a little drawing that I'm

3414
03:21:54,520 --> 03:21:56,320
Speaker 1: going to put at the end of my video, like

3415
03:21:56,440 --> 03:22:00,720
Speaker 1: that's that's the value proposition here, Yeah, and I think that,

3416
03:22:00,959 --> 03:22:03,720
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's a I don't The reason I

3417
03:22:03,800 --> 03:22:08,240
Speaker 1: don't accept ad ad reads on Thoughtslime I do on

3418
03:22:08,360 --> 03:22:12,320
Speaker 1: scaredy Cats is because I don't want the perception that

3419
03:22:12,520 --> 03:22:15,640
Speaker 1: my views are going to be limited or held back

3420
03:22:15,760 --> 03:22:18,800
Speaker 1: by you know, the desire to seek out advertisers, which,

3421
03:22:19,200 --> 03:22:22,720
Speaker 1: whether or not I would have the integrity to withstand

3422
03:22:22,879 --> 03:22:27,280
Speaker 1: like it, it would create the illusion. But that creates

3423
03:22:27,360 --> 03:22:30,400
Speaker 1: the problem of well, now I kind of have to

3424
03:22:30,520 --> 03:22:33,880
Speaker 1: do what I think that my audience will want, and

3425
03:22:34,040 --> 03:22:36,920
Speaker 1: that's its own kettle of fish, Like I am I

3426
03:22:37,040 --> 03:22:40,040
Speaker 1: pushing people to donate more than than they might be

3427
03:22:40,120 --> 03:22:42,840
Speaker 1: comfortable with, and so that's you know, I don't I

3428
03:22:42,879 --> 03:22:45,560
Speaker 1: don't really know like the the ethics of it, to

3429
03:22:45,720 --> 03:22:49,760
Speaker 1: be perfectly frank, there have been times when people have

3430
03:22:49,959 --> 03:22:52,400
Speaker 1: made big donations and I've had to message them and

3431
03:22:52,480 --> 03:22:54,960
Speaker 1: say like, hey, I think you should you should probably

3432
03:22:55,040 --> 03:22:57,880
Speaker 1: take this money back. You probably weren't thinking straight when

3433
03:22:57,920 --> 03:22:59,720
Speaker 1: you sent me this money. I think you should probably

3434
03:22:59,760 --> 03:23:02,960
Speaker 1: have it back. Yeah, that's such an interesting thing for

3435
03:23:03,080 --> 03:23:05,879
Speaker 1: me because it also you know, I've I've thought about

3436
03:23:05,920 --> 03:23:08,400
Speaker 1: that myself quite a lot. You know. I had a

3437
03:23:08,480 --> 03:23:10,920
Speaker 1: decision to make when we first started doing these shows

3438
03:23:10,959 --> 03:23:12,480
Speaker 1: about how it was going to be done, and I

3439
03:23:13,000 --> 03:23:16,440
Speaker 1: took the ad supported corporate route, and I've been very

3440
03:23:16,520 --> 03:23:19,080
Speaker 1: happy with that so far. There's a lot of things

3441
03:23:19,120 --> 03:23:22,240
Speaker 1: that's let us do. There's certainly downsides to it, um,

3442
03:23:22,560 --> 03:23:26,240
Speaker 1: you know, including occasionally advertising for the Washington State Highway Patrol.

3443
03:23:28,160 --> 03:23:29,720
Speaker 1: But um, you know, it's one of those things. I

3444
03:23:29,840 --> 03:23:32,120
Speaker 1: made a comment, and this is part one of the

3445
03:23:32,280 --> 03:23:35,000
Speaker 1: one of the frustrating things about making media for a

3446
03:23:35,120 --> 03:23:38,240
Speaker 1: large audience is there's always going to be people who

3447
03:23:38,280 --> 03:23:40,720
Speaker 1: will like read into what you've said something you never meant.

3448
03:23:40,720 --> 03:23:43,240
Speaker 1: I made a comment once about like, you know, because

3449
03:23:43,480 --> 03:23:45,240
Speaker 1: we get people asking, well, why don't you do a

3450
03:23:45,320 --> 03:23:47,600
Speaker 1: Patreon or whatever? Why do you do it this way?

3451
03:23:47,680 --> 03:23:50,600
Speaker 1: And I just made a comment like expressing what you

3452
03:23:50,680 --> 03:23:53,240
Speaker 1: had just expressed, like, well, you know, I feel weird

3453
03:23:53,360 --> 03:23:56,160
Speaker 1: sometimes asking for money and if I can just like

3454
03:23:56,240 --> 03:23:58,520
Speaker 1: get money from a big company and you know, hire

3455
03:23:58,760 --> 03:24:01,640
Speaker 1: my friends and do my work. I feel okay doing that.

3456
03:24:01,760 --> 03:24:04,039
Speaker 1: It's how most of my career has worked. So that's

3457
03:24:04,080 --> 03:24:07,000
Speaker 1: what I'm most comfortable doing. And yes, there were people

3458
03:24:07,040 --> 03:24:09,960
Speaker 1: who took from that, like well, Robert doesn't think it's

3459
03:24:10,000 --> 03:24:11,920
Speaker 1: ethical to have a Patreon. It's like half of my

3460
03:24:12,080 --> 03:24:14,720
Speaker 1: friends make their living son Patreon. I do not have

3461
03:24:14,879 --> 03:24:19,040
Speaker 1: an ethical problem with supporting yourself that way. I will

3462
03:24:19,080 --> 03:24:21,920
Speaker 1: say that when I heard you mentioned that in an episode,

3463
03:24:22,000 --> 03:24:25,440
Speaker 1: and it did send a chill down my spine briefly. No,

3464
03:24:25,640 --> 03:24:28,600
Speaker 1: I mean I think like Cody Johnston, who I've worked

3465
03:24:28,640 --> 03:24:32,240
Speaker 1: with for what fifteen years now, has a massive Patreon.

3466
03:24:32,680 --> 03:24:35,520
Speaker 1: Tom and Dave Boyd lived with some of my best friends.

3467
03:24:35,640 --> 03:24:38,760
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, like it's I think it's perfectly it's

3468
03:24:38,879 --> 03:24:41,360
Speaker 1: it's certainly no less ethical, and you can make a

3469
03:24:41,440 --> 03:24:44,200
Speaker 1: case people do that it's more ethical than being ad supported.

3470
03:24:44,600 --> 03:24:46,760
Speaker 1: It's just like, I mean, some of it just comes

3471
03:24:46,800 --> 03:24:48,520
Speaker 1: down to like what kind of stuff are you making

3472
03:24:48,600 --> 03:24:51,320
Speaker 1: and what kind of like person are you and what's

3473
03:24:51,640 --> 03:24:55,520
Speaker 1: going to work best with you as like a creative

3474
03:24:55,560 --> 03:24:57,840
Speaker 1: method in a way of interacting with fans. And they

3475
03:24:57,879 --> 03:25:00,520
Speaker 1: have downsides and they have positives. You know, it's also

3476
03:25:00,640 --> 03:25:03,680
Speaker 1: like a matter of of what you're able to do

3477
03:25:03,840 --> 03:25:06,480
Speaker 1: to certain extents, because like, I don't know how to

3478
03:25:06,920 --> 03:25:10,280
Speaker 1: get advertisers. Yeah, any advertisers that I've ever gotten on

3479
03:25:10,400 --> 03:25:12,680
Speaker 1: my my horror channel have just reached out to me,

3480
03:25:13,040 --> 03:25:15,560
Speaker 1: and like, I don't know if I'm getting as much

3481
03:25:15,600 --> 03:25:16,960
Speaker 1: money out of them as they should be. I have

3482
03:25:17,080 --> 03:25:18,920
Speaker 1: no idea. I just I just kind of wing it.

3483
03:25:19,080 --> 03:25:21,879
Speaker 1: You know, like if you have that background in radio

3484
03:25:22,080 --> 03:25:24,880
Speaker 1: or broadcasting or what have you, like it, can you

3485
03:25:24,920 --> 03:25:26,920
Speaker 1: know that it's it's a much more viable option for

3486
03:25:27,000 --> 03:25:29,120
Speaker 1: some people than it is for others. Yeah. Yeah, I

3487
03:25:29,160 --> 03:25:31,120
Speaker 1: Mean a lot of why it works for me the

3488
03:25:31,200 --> 03:25:33,359
Speaker 1: way that it does is because I've had a fifteen

3489
03:25:33,440 --> 03:25:36,640
Speaker 1: year career in not in broadcasts, but you know, in

3490
03:25:37,120 --> 03:25:40,760
Speaker 1: comedy writing and whatnot. And so I mean that's how

3491
03:25:40,800 --> 03:25:43,440
Speaker 1: I got the I got my podcast hosted on my

3492
03:25:43,520 --> 03:25:45,840
Speaker 1: Heart in the first place, and that's like a thing.

3493
03:25:46,400 --> 03:25:48,320
Speaker 1: And this is actually one of the things that concerns

3494
03:25:48,360 --> 03:25:50,520
Speaker 1: me most about the ship that's happening with AI right now,

3495
03:25:50,640 --> 03:25:53,560
Speaker 1: because you know, there's this, Uh, the folks that kind

3496
03:25:53,600 --> 03:25:57,360
Speaker 1: of I came into making media for all of us

3497
03:25:57,440 --> 03:26:00,760
Speaker 1: started as fairly a political comedy. I mean that's Cody

3498
03:26:00,840 --> 03:26:03,600
Speaker 1: Johnston write some more news. Cody was making videos about

3499
03:26:03,640 --> 03:26:07,400
Speaker 1: like chat roulette and penises when we when we all

3500
03:26:07,440 --> 03:26:11,600
Speaker 1: started working together, very funny videos, but like we were

3501
03:26:11,680 --> 03:26:16,640
Speaker 1: making silly things. Um, and everyone has kind of uh

3502
03:26:17,160 --> 03:26:23,000
Speaker 1: moved into making like, you know, pretty pretty serious fact

3503
03:26:23,080 --> 03:26:26,880
Speaker 1: based media. Um. You know, Cody does a very popular,

3504
03:26:27,040 --> 03:26:31,800
Speaker 1: very political kind of current events show. And we were

3505
03:26:31,879 --> 03:26:36,320
Speaker 1: able to get good at making the kind of media

3506
03:26:36,400 --> 03:26:38,760
Speaker 1: that we made and build the connections that we built

3507
03:26:38,760 --> 03:26:41,400
Speaker 1: and build the audiences that we built because we had

3508
03:26:42,040 --> 03:26:44,800
Speaker 1: years of time where you could make a decent living

3509
03:26:45,440 --> 03:26:48,200
Speaker 1: writing stuff for the Internet. And I see the kind

3510
03:26:48,240 --> 03:26:50,480
Speaker 1: of shit that I'm afraid AI is going to do

3511
03:26:51,840 --> 03:26:54,760
Speaker 1: to these jobs where people would get their start as

3512
03:26:54,840 --> 03:26:56,760
Speaker 1: writers and whatnot. Maybe it wasn't the best, you know,

3513
03:26:56,840 --> 03:26:58,360
Speaker 1: it's not that you're not doing the best writing you're

3514
03:26:58,400 --> 03:27:00,600
Speaker 1: ever going to do the jobs that get replace by AI.

3515
03:27:01,080 --> 03:27:02,959
Speaker 1: But it's a foot in the door, and I keep

3516
03:27:03,040 --> 03:27:05,800
Speaker 1: feeling I feel like I keep seeing the room for

3517
03:27:05,920 --> 03:27:08,080
Speaker 1: people to put their foot in the door get smaller

3518
03:27:08,160 --> 03:27:11,000
Speaker 1: and smaller every year, and that's that worries me a lot.

3519
03:27:11,920 --> 03:27:15,400
Speaker 1: I definitely know what you mean. I also feel that

3520
03:27:15,560 --> 03:27:20,400
Speaker 1: like there's a fear among some people that like, you

3521
03:27:20,520 --> 03:27:24,160
Speaker 1: get crowded out of these spaces the more people there

3522
03:27:24,240 --> 03:27:26,840
Speaker 1: are doing this sort of thing, and I kind of

3523
03:27:26,920 --> 03:27:32,240
Speaker 1: feel like that's not the case. I'd like the AI stuff.

3524
03:27:32,280 --> 03:27:36,080
Speaker 1: I definitely share your concerns, but yeah, the the institutional

3525
03:27:36,160 --> 03:27:40,760
Speaker 1: barriers and people's way, like I think that like to

3526
03:27:40,920 --> 03:27:44,080
Speaker 1: be frank, like, I started doing this on a shitty

3527
03:27:44,120 --> 03:27:51,199
Speaker 1: two hundred dollars computer and a completely legal video editing software,

3528
03:27:51,600 --> 03:27:55,760
Speaker 1: but I love video editing software. I found it in

3529
03:27:55,800 --> 03:27:58,400
Speaker 1: a dumpster and I used that, so you know, and

3530
03:27:58,480 --> 03:28:01,840
Speaker 1: then like through that, I was able to be able

3531
03:28:01,879 --> 03:28:04,800
Speaker 1: to afford a fancy camera in some lights and you know,

3532
03:28:05,640 --> 03:28:07,960
Speaker 1: but like I didn't know what I was doing, Like

3533
03:28:08,000 --> 03:28:10,400
Speaker 1: it was all self taught. And I think there has

3534
03:28:10,480 --> 03:28:14,440
Speaker 1: to be that kind of DIY attitude, yeah, for people.

3535
03:28:14,480 --> 03:28:16,640
Speaker 1: And it is something I try to encourage in people,

3536
03:28:16,760 --> 03:28:19,520
Speaker 1: is that like, just just do it like I did it,

3537
03:28:19,640 --> 03:28:21,840
Speaker 1: you can do it. Yeah, you know. I think that's

3538
03:28:21,879 --> 03:28:24,200
Speaker 1: a great point because I am coming at this from

3539
03:28:24,240 --> 03:28:28,240
Speaker 1: the old man dumerist perspective of somebody who like the

3540
03:28:28,360 --> 03:28:30,560
Speaker 1: world has changed from the way it was when I'm

3541
03:28:30,640 --> 03:28:32,920
Speaker 1: young when I was young, and people don't get their

3542
03:28:33,000 --> 03:28:36,720
Speaker 1: career started that way anymore. And your point is very

3543
03:28:36,840 --> 03:28:41,920
Speaker 1: valid that while changes in the industry have closed specific doors,

3544
03:28:42,480 --> 03:28:46,480
Speaker 1: they've also created some and I think probably in the

3545
03:28:46,560 --> 03:28:48,840
Speaker 1: long run, it is better for people to get their

3546
03:28:48,840 --> 03:28:51,879
Speaker 1: foot in the door doing what you did than rewriting

3547
03:28:51,879 --> 03:28:55,160
Speaker 1: a bunch of press releases about tech gadgets for a

3548
03:28:55,280 --> 03:28:58,160
Speaker 1: shady website that takes advantage of the Google algorithm, which

3549
03:28:58,160 --> 03:29:00,880
Speaker 1: has always started my career. I think that's actually a

3550
03:29:01,000 --> 03:29:03,320
Speaker 1: really valid I think, Yeah, I don't. I don't. I

3551
03:29:03,360 --> 03:29:06,640
Speaker 1: don't think that's a It depends on your end goal too, right,

3552
03:29:06,720 --> 03:29:09,960
Speaker 1: But I think like the thing that becomes incumbent on

3553
03:29:10,160 --> 03:29:13,840
Speaker 1: on people like me is to like help people, you know,

3554
03:29:14,280 --> 03:29:17,040
Speaker 1: Like I've experienced a certain amount of success and so,

3555
03:29:17,920 --> 03:29:19,880
Speaker 1: and I attribute that largely to the fact that, like

3556
03:29:20,400 --> 03:29:22,040
Speaker 1: when I was just starting out, like I had no

3557
03:29:22,200 --> 03:29:24,680
Speaker 1: idea how to make people see my shit. I'd like,

3558
03:29:24,760 --> 03:29:26,600
Speaker 1: I did not know what I was doing. Yeah, and

3559
03:29:27,240 --> 03:29:29,000
Speaker 1: a bigger creator just reached down and it's like, hey,

3560
03:29:29,040 --> 03:29:30,960
Speaker 1: can I share your video? I think it's really good,

3561
03:29:31,400 --> 03:29:34,760
Speaker 1: And it kind of snowballed from there. So my philosophy

3562
03:29:34,800 --> 03:29:38,400
Speaker 1: has always been like you take these uh you know,

3563
03:29:38,600 --> 03:29:42,560
Speaker 1: you you make space for to lift people up with you.

3564
03:29:43,520 --> 03:29:47,240
Speaker 1: And in doing so, it's not an entirely selfless gesture either,

3565
03:29:47,360 --> 03:29:50,920
Speaker 1: because in doing so, if if there's an extremely talented

3566
03:29:51,000 --> 03:29:54,320
Speaker 1: person who succeeds partially because you help them, now you

3567
03:29:54,440 --> 03:29:57,560
Speaker 1: have a connection to an extremely talented person. You know, yeah,

3568
03:29:57,879 --> 03:30:03,240
Speaker 1: Like that's that's a sen for lack of a better term,

3569
03:30:03,600 --> 03:30:06,800
Speaker 1: mutual aid in a very yeah, loose sense. I suppose

3570
03:30:07,959 --> 03:30:10,360
Speaker 1: that reminds me of something a good friend of mine

3571
03:30:10,400 --> 03:30:13,720
Speaker 1: and a colleague at Cracked who now helps run the

3572
03:30:13,800 --> 03:30:17,920
Speaker 1: Small Beans podcast network said to me years and years

3573
03:30:17,959 --> 03:30:21,560
Speaker 1: ago when he was directing a video, which is, I

3574
03:30:21,640 --> 03:30:24,000
Speaker 1: want to spend the rest of my career getting hired

3575
03:30:24,040 --> 03:30:27,880
Speaker 1: and fired by my friends. Which is I think a

3576
03:30:28,000 --> 03:30:30,360
Speaker 1: nice way of looking at it. And there's a degree

3577
03:30:30,360 --> 03:30:32,240
Speaker 1: to which it's a very old Hollywood way of looking

3578
03:30:32,320 --> 03:30:34,880
Speaker 1: at it, But it doesn't. It also works very well

3579
03:30:35,040 --> 03:30:37,840
Speaker 1: in this It can work very well in this new,

3580
03:30:38,760 --> 03:30:43,560
Speaker 1: this new kind of ecosystem that is still being put together.

3581
03:30:44,760 --> 03:30:47,080
Speaker 1: And I do think that it's because I see a

3582
03:30:47,160 --> 03:30:49,720
Speaker 1: lot and I don't. I'm not someone who does a

3583
03:30:49,760 --> 03:30:52,080
Speaker 1: lot of time like I like to watch. I watch

3584
03:30:52,160 --> 03:30:53,680
Speaker 1: like the stuff that you put together, the stuff h

3585
03:30:53,760 --> 03:30:58,279
Speaker 1: Bomber guy puts together where it's actual like videos on topics,

3586
03:30:58,320 --> 03:31:00,959
Speaker 1: and I'm learning something this stuff that that Dan Olsen

3587
03:31:01,000 --> 03:31:03,840
Speaker 1: puts together. You know, I'm not so much into And

3588
03:31:03,920 --> 03:31:05,640
Speaker 1: this is not I'm not attacking anybody. I'm not like

3589
03:31:05,720 --> 03:31:08,120
Speaker 1: trying to shoot on the field. But personally I don't

3590
03:31:08,160 --> 03:31:11,039
Speaker 1: watch like the just kind of like stream stuff a lot,

3591
03:31:11,480 --> 03:31:13,160
Speaker 1: and I it does seem like there's a lot of

3592
03:31:13,240 --> 03:31:16,960
Speaker 1: conflicts between people in that, and I'm wondering, you know,

3593
03:31:17,680 --> 03:31:21,040
Speaker 1: my hope is that there's more people building connections to

3594
03:31:21,280 --> 03:31:24,520
Speaker 1: create resiliency between the people who are are trying to

3595
03:31:24,720 --> 03:31:28,840
Speaker 1: make good shit and trying to make stuff that people

3596
03:31:29,280 --> 03:31:31,240
Speaker 1: enjoy and that has an impact on people and that

3597
03:31:31,360 --> 03:31:35,120
Speaker 1: even changes people in positive ways. And it sounds like

3598
03:31:35,240 --> 03:31:37,640
Speaker 1: from what from what you're talking about, you know, honestly

3599
03:31:37,720 --> 03:31:40,480
Speaker 1: from what I experience too, I do think that's more

3600
03:31:40,560 --> 03:31:43,040
Speaker 1: the case than like the drama that that goes viral

3601
03:31:43,120 --> 03:31:46,280
Speaker 1: on Twitter from time to time. Yeah, I think, you know,

3602
03:31:46,400 --> 03:31:49,640
Speaker 1: I hope I hope so too. I think that that

3603
03:31:50,360 --> 03:31:54,800
Speaker 1: it's it's very easy to piss people off and it's

3604
03:31:54,879 --> 03:31:58,400
Speaker 1: much harder to get people's attention by being kind. But

3605
03:31:58,959 --> 03:32:03,040
Speaker 1: you know, I like, look, you know, how many nice

3606
03:32:03,080 --> 03:32:05,360
Speaker 1: comments do I gain in a day? Can't count? But

3607
03:32:05,520 --> 03:32:08,080
Speaker 1: like the one shitty comments will always stick out. It's

3608
03:32:08,120 --> 03:32:10,400
Speaker 1: the same way like if if I have a thousand

3609
03:32:10,760 --> 03:32:15,640
Speaker 1: pleasant interactions with someone else, uh, nobody notices. But if I,

3610
03:32:15,840 --> 03:32:17,880
Speaker 1: you know, get into if I pick a fight with somebody,

3611
03:32:18,480 --> 03:32:21,360
Speaker 1: you know, it's people are going to remember forever. I

3612
03:32:21,480 --> 03:32:23,840
Speaker 1: think that's the thing that unsettles me most. And this

3613
03:32:23,959 --> 03:32:27,199
Speaker 1: isn't actually even just like this isn't about streaming media

3614
03:32:27,440 --> 03:32:29,520
Speaker 1: or left wing media or whatever. This is a problem

3615
03:32:29,560 --> 03:32:33,320
Speaker 1: of social media that You're right, it's the it's the

3616
03:32:33,480 --> 03:32:36,640
Speaker 1: fights that always get most of the attention as opposed

3617
03:32:36,680 --> 03:32:40,760
Speaker 1: to them. I mean not entirely, because some of like

3618
03:32:40,840 --> 03:32:43,440
Speaker 1: the big moments is particularly in recent left wing media

3619
03:32:43,520 --> 03:32:46,800
Speaker 1: things like um, you know, people doing these giant streams

3620
03:32:46,840 --> 03:32:48,800
Speaker 1: that raise huge amounts of money for a cause. So

3621
03:32:48,920 --> 03:32:52,000
Speaker 1: that that certainly is a thing that happens and does

3622
03:32:52,720 --> 03:32:54,920
Speaker 1: get a lot of attention when it does happen. But

3623
03:32:55,320 --> 03:32:57,320
Speaker 1: you are fighting against and I think we have to

3624
03:32:57,400 --> 03:33:02,000
Speaker 1: be consciously fighting against this system that does to engender conflict. Yes,

3625
03:33:03,240 --> 03:33:06,480
Speaker 1: it's also kind of difficult and I and you know,

3626
03:33:06,600 --> 03:33:08,480
Speaker 1: keep in mind this is this is perhaps coming from

3627
03:33:08,480 --> 03:33:12,320
Speaker 1: a bias perspective when there are individuals and I'm not

3628
03:33:12,400 --> 03:33:15,960
Speaker 1: going to name names who do see that as an

3629
03:33:16,000 --> 03:33:21,680
Speaker 1: easy source of generating attention. Uh, it's it's very easy

3630
03:33:21,879 --> 03:33:23,800
Speaker 1: to the same way that, like, if I'm going to

3631
03:33:23,879 --> 03:33:26,800
Speaker 1: make a video on a subject, I will frame it

3632
03:33:26,920 --> 03:33:30,240
Speaker 1: as like I'm disagreeing with Ben Shapiro or I'm disagreeing

3633
03:33:30,360 --> 03:33:34,280
Speaker 1: with Jordan Peterson. It's very easy to go look at

3634
03:33:34,320 --> 03:33:36,560
Speaker 1: thought slime, there's a big piece of shit because he

3635
03:33:36,800 --> 03:33:39,520
Speaker 1: thought this when when actually this is the truth. That's

3636
03:33:39,600 --> 03:33:42,320
Speaker 1: more attention grabbing than just you know, a kind of

3637
03:33:42,440 --> 03:33:47,520
Speaker 1: neutrally positioned argument. Yeah, so it's a it's a it's

3638
03:33:47,560 --> 03:33:51,520
Speaker 1: a tricky problem. Yeah. Yeah, I think one of the

3639
03:33:51,600 --> 03:33:55,360
Speaker 1: ones that, um that I think on quite a lot. Well, um,

3640
03:33:55,640 --> 03:33:57,440
Speaker 1: I think that's most of what I wanted to talk

3641
03:33:57,520 --> 03:34:01,160
Speaker 1: about today. Did you want to like throwing anything else

3642
03:34:01,920 --> 03:34:04,840
Speaker 1: or if not, we can go to plugs. Yeah, I mean,

3643
03:34:04,879 --> 03:34:07,200
Speaker 1: I'm good, that's pretty much it. I will say that

3644
03:34:07,640 --> 03:34:09,560
Speaker 1: one of the things that tends to bother me the

3645
03:34:09,640 --> 03:34:14,200
Speaker 1: most is people will occasionally say to me that they'll

3646
03:34:14,240 --> 03:34:16,760
Speaker 1: send a message thing you seem like a really good person,

3647
03:34:17,360 --> 03:34:21,280
Speaker 1: and I will say thank you. But please don't feel

3648
03:34:21,320 --> 03:34:25,560
Speaker 1: that way about content creators, because why would I make

3649
03:34:25,959 --> 03:34:29,080
Speaker 1: a work that portrayed myself as a bad person? And

3650
03:34:29,200 --> 03:34:31,800
Speaker 1: while I, in my mind think I am a good person,

3651
03:34:32,240 --> 03:34:35,520
Speaker 1: I think it sets the dangerous precedent that you could

3652
03:34:35,520 --> 03:34:38,480
Speaker 1: allow yourself to be emotionally manipulated by someone else who

3653
03:34:38,560 --> 03:34:41,720
Speaker 1: might not be well the name of the game. When

3654
03:34:41,760 --> 03:34:45,080
Speaker 1: you are creating media, particularly when you're creating media that's

3655
03:34:45,240 --> 03:34:49,920
Speaker 1: meant to make people feel things, part of that is manipulation, right.

3656
03:34:50,360 --> 03:34:53,800
Speaker 1: Manipulate is not an inherently negative term. You know, Stanley

3657
03:34:53,879 --> 03:34:56,720
Speaker 1: Kubrick is trying to manipulate you when he makes a movie.

3658
03:34:57,640 --> 03:35:00,440
Speaker 1: I'm trying to persuade you, Yeah, you do it does

3659
03:35:00,560 --> 03:35:04,400
Speaker 1: It is incumbent upon the audience for their own protection

3660
03:35:04,480 --> 03:35:06,560
Speaker 1: to keep that in mind. And it's incumbent upon ethical

3661
03:35:06,640 --> 03:35:10,800
Speaker 1: people who make stuff to not create cults, at least

3662
03:35:10,840 --> 03:35:15,280
Speaker 1: not create too many cults. Yeah, as much as you

3663
03:35:15,360 --> 03:35:17,440
Speaker 1: can avoid it, for sure. Yeah, all right, you want

3664
03:35:17,480 --> 03:35:21,000
Speaker 1: to plug your plugables. Sure, you can find my work

3665
03:35:21,080 --> 03:35:23,920
Speaker 1: at YouTube dot com. Slash Thoughtslime or thoughtslime dot com.

3666
03:35:24,320 --> 03:35:28,800
Speaker 1: You also find my horror content at YouTube dot com

3667
03:35:28,879 --> 03:35:32,880
Speaker 1: slash Scaredycats TV. Scaredycats was taken. That's me, That's what

3668
03:35:33,000 --> 03:35:38,680
Speaker 1: I do. I make videos about fartsand or butts. Well,

3669
03:35:38,800 --> 03:35:40,960
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the show. That

3670
03:35:41,240 --> 03:35:43,879
Speaker 1: is going to be it for us today. We will

3671
03:35:43,879 --> 03:35:49,800
Speaker 1: be back probably tomorrow. Hey, we'll be back Monday with

3672
03:35:50,080 --> 03:35:52,879
Speaker 1: more episodes every week from now until the heat death

3673
03:35:52,920 --> 03:35:55,480
Speaker 1: of the Universe. It Could Happen Here as a production

3674
03:35:55,520 --> 03:35:58,520
Speaker 1: of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,

3675
03:35:58,640 --> 03:36:01,080
Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check

3676
03:36:01,160 --> 03:36:03,920
Speaker 1: us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

3677
03:36:04,040 --> 03:36:06,560
Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It

3678
03:36:06,600 --> 03:36:10,680
Speaker 1: Could Happen Here, updated monthly at Coolsonemedia dot com slash sources.

3679
03:36:10,920 --> 03:36:11,720
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.