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Speaker 1: Welcome to Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions. I'm Laura and I writer.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Steve Drissen.

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Speaker 1: So far, we've told you the story of Robert Davis

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Speaker 1: in Virginia and the Dixmore five in Chicago, two cases

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Speaker 1: that show how the interrogation room works and how racial

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Speaker 1: biases can script false confessions. Today's episode is about how

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Speaker 1: interrogation tactics designed for seasoned adult criminals are often used

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Speaker 1: on the most vulnerable among us. We're going to take

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Speaker 1: you to Camden, Arkansas, where a twelve year old boy

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Speaker 1: is left to fend for himself against grown ups who

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Speaker 1: suspect him of murder. The interrogation tape is bad enough,

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Speaker 1: but the worst parts happened off camera. This is the

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Speaker 1: story of Thomas.

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Speaker 2: Cogdal I do a lot of searches online to try

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Speaker 2: to keep up to date about cases involving false confessions

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Speaker 2: and juveniles, and this case came on my radar screen.

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Speaker 2: When I saw these interrogation tapes, I was absolutely floored.

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Speaker 2: You know, Robert Davis was eighteen, he was well over

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Speaker 2: six feet tall. But Thomas Cogdell, he was a boy.

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Speaker 2: He hadn't started shaving yet.

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Speaker 1: This is the first video I had seen where adult

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Speaker 1: tactics were being used on someone as young as Thomas

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Speaker 1: twelve years old. I'm a mom. I've got kids not

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Speaker 1: much younger than Thomas, and the way the cops railroaded

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Speaker 1: this child, it brings me to tears when I hear this.

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Speaker 2: You have two boys, I have three boys. I remember

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Speaker 2: what my boys were like when they were twelve years old,

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Speaker 2: and they reminded me very much of Thomas.

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Speaker 1: Cogdele and that the climax of this interrogation they turn

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Speaker 1: off the camera, that's when the heat really gets turned up.

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Speaker 2: What happened off camera? I wanted to know what happened.

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Speaker 1: Thomas's story starts in Camden, Arkansas, a small town about

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Speaker 1: twelve thousand people one hundred miles south of Little Rock.

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Speaker 1: Now Camden's a beautiful place, but like too many smaller towns,

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Speaker 1: modernity has been hard for Camden. Once upon a time,

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Speaker 1: it was home to a naval ammunition depot that employed

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, and it was even known for

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Speaker 1: being the home of the man who invented gray Pet

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Speaker 1: soft drinks, which were really popular in the fifties and sixties,

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Speaker 1: but gray Pet fizzled out and the ammunition depot closed

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Speaker 1: at the end of the Cold War, and ever since

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Speaker 1: the late eighties early nineties, Camden's been losing jobs, residents,

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Speaker 1: and morale. Now, at the beginning of the summer in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and six, Thomas and his family had moved

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Speaker 1: into a tidy, little gray house on Waco Street. They

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Speaker 1: live there, just the three of them. It's Thomas who's twelve,

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Speaker 1: his eleven year old sister Kayley, and their mom, Melody Jones.

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Speaker 1: Let me tell you a little about Thomas. He's one

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Speaker 1: of those whiz kids. It's the kind of kid who

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Speaker 1: racks up all a's in school and then comes home

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Speaker 1: and dives straight into a book. He's well mannered, polite, quiet,

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Speaker 1: small for his age, with these chubby cheeks that made

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Speaker 1: him look even younger than his age. And at twelve,

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Speaker 1: he still spoke with a lisp, this really childlike lisp

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Speaker 1: that was incredibly endearing. Now, in many ways, Thomas shouldered

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Speaker 1: a lot of the responsibility around the house. Melody was

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Speaker 1: on Social Security disability because of mental illness, and the

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Speaker 1: family got by on her monthly check and food stamps.

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Speaker 1: Thomas had a sister who was eleven, Kaylee. She was

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Speaker 1: as immature in some ways as Thomas was mature. She

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Speaker 1: wasn't as good as he was at reading, so he'd

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Speaker 1: spend a lot of time helping her learn her words

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Speaker 1: and remembered. They were new on the block, which unfortunately

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Speaker 1: meant that Kaylee was in for some bullying. But when

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Speaker 1: other kids would pick on her, Thomas would literally launch

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Speaker 1: himself at them, chubby cheeks and all. He was the

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Speaker 1: big brother, it was his responsibility he felt to defend.

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Speaker 2: The two of them got along well for the most part,

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Speaker 2: but like all children, they had their spats, and it

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Speaker 2: usually occurred when Kaylee would interrupt something that Thomas was

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Speaker 2: working on or listening to, or video game he was playing,

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Speaker 2: and that would frustrate him. But that happens in every family.

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Speaker 1: So let's fast forward to the morning of August seventh,

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Speaker 1: two thousand and six. It was Monday morning, but school

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Speaker 1: was out, so the kids had stayed up really late

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Speaker 1: the night before. Kayley had gone to bed at about

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Speaker 1: two point thirty in the morning, and Thomas had stayed

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Speaker 1: up even later than her until about five am, eating

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Speaker 1: em and m's and reading a spooky children's book in

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Speaker 1: his room.

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Speaker 2: He fell asleep with the book still open to the

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Speaker 2: page that he had left it at.

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Speaker 1: And then the morning comes at about eleven forty five

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Speaker 1: or so, both Melody and Thomas are awake. Melody later

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Speaker 1: said she went to check the mail that morning found

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Speaker 1: a letter for Kaylee, who was still in her bedroom.

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Speaker 1: Melody asks Thomas to come with her to surprise Kaylee

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Speaker 1: with her letter, but they're met with a horrible Kaylee's

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Speaker 1: in the bedroom. Her hands are tightly bound with a

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Speaker 1: red dog leash, and her feet are loosely bound with

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Speaker 1: a cloth measuring tape, the kind of thing you'd use

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Speaker 1: to measure out and cut fabric. And there's a plastic

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Speaker 1: bag over her head. Melody removed the bag and it

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Speaker 1: was immediately clear Kayley was dead. Melody's screamed. She screams

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Speaker 1: so loudly that the neighbors hear her. She becomes hysterical.

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Speaker 1: Thomas has the presence of mind to call nine one one.

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Speaker 1: An ambulance arrives. The neighbors are gathering outside everybody's concern,

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Speaker 1: but no one's being brought out to that ambulance for treatment. Slowly,

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Speaker 1: word is beginning to spread among the neighbors that kayleie

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Speaker 1: Cogdal had been found dead.

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Speaker 2: When police arrived at a crime scene, they look for

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Speaker 2: evidence of forced entry, and they didn't see any evidence

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Speaker 2: of forced entry. That means that either somebody in the

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Speaker 2: home had let the murderer in, or that the murder

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Speaker 2: had been committed by somebody who was in the home

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Speaker 2: at the time of the crime.

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Speaker 1: Kayley had not been sexually assaulted. Instead, she'd been smothered

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Speaker 1: to death. The absence of any sexual attack meant that

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Speaker 1: both Thomas and his mother, Melody were suspects. Now. At

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Speaker 1: this point in the investigation, police had thought the time

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Speaker 1: of death was about six to eight hours before the

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Speaker 1: body had been discovered. Working back from eleven forty five,

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Speaker 1: that would have placed the murder around three forty five

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Speaker 1: to five forty five in the.

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Speaker 2: Morning, and because Thomas had said that he was awake,

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Speaker 2: still reading a book at the time, suspicion began to

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Speaker 2: focus on him.

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Speaker 1: The police bring both Melody and Thomas in for questioning

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Speaker 1: later in the day, and it's melodies turn to go first.

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Speaker 1: The mom Now, she's questioned at about four thirty pm

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Speaker 1: for about an hour, and long story short, she denies

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Speaker 1: doing anything to Kayley, and in fact spends most of

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Speaker 1: that interview answering questions about Thomas. At the end of

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Speaker 1: that interview, the end of the hour, she gives the

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Speaker 1: police permier to question Thomas. Now, this is interesting and problematic, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, Melody's a suspect as well as Thomas, and

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Speaker 1: she's the one who is giving the police consent to

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Speaker 1: question her son, the other suspect.

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Speaker 2: It's totally inappropriate.

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Speaker 1: But the police relied on that consent that they'd gotten

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Speaker 1: from Melody, from Thomas's mom, plowed ahead with questioning Thomas

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Speaker 1: all by himself, no lawyer, no parent, no nothing, starting

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Speaker 1: at about five thirty PM.

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Speaker 2: So Thomas, a twelve year old boy who had never

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Speaker 2: had any contact with law enforcement, is left to fend

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Speaker 2: for himself against seasoned homicide detectives.

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Speaker 1: All of the beginning of Thomas's interrogation is captured on videotape,

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Speaker 1: And when you watch this tape, you see a small

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Speaker 1: boy sitting in a chair at a table in a

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Speaker 1: small room with no windows, no clock. Thomas is about

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Speaker 1: to undergo about five hours of questioning at age twelve,

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Speaker 1: by himself. Now, the first segment of this tape runs

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Speaker 1: from about five thirty in the afternoon to sixty five,

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Speaker 1: and it's hard to watch.

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Speaker 2: It's brutal. It literally gutted me and caused me to cry.

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Speaker 1: Exactly I mean. At first, Thomas keeps his cool. You

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Speaker 1: can see the honor Roll student in him, trying to

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Speaker 1: be the big man who helps the police. He calls

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Speaker 1: his interrogators sir. He answers them quickly and politely. The

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Speaker 1: only way you can tell he's nervous is by the

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Speaker 1: way he's wringing his hands over and over again, almost

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Speaker 1: non stop. But it gets awful, and it gets awful quickly.

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Speaker 1: The police start out by telling Thomas that he has

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Speaker 1: to choose between incriminating himself and incriminating his own mother.

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Speaker 3: In the bottom line on me is nobody broke in

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Speaker 3: that house last night. There's no indication of any break here.

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Speaker 3: So your sister died and there was only two people

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Speaker 3: in the house that could have killed him. Okay, that's

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Speaker 3: the only way he can.

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Speaker 1: Make boy, understand you or your mother. That's the only

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Speaker 1: way it can be, boy, There ain't no other way.

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Speaker 1: And again, did your mother kill her? Not that I

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Speaker 1: know of. They say, why would you kill your sister?

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Speaker 1: And he says, I wouldn't, but they've continued to press

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Speaker 1: you had to have killed her, because if your mother didn't,

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Speaker 1: that just leaves you that she had.

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Speaker 2: If your mother didn't, I just leave she. Thomas begins

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Speaker 2: to cry, actually wail, and the sound of his high

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Speaker 2: pitch wailing is what caused me the greatest distressed because

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Speaker 2: it sounded almost like the way an animal would sound,

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Speaker 2: a baby animal if their foot were caught in a

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Speaker 2: bear trap or an animal trot. One of the detectives

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Speaker 2: says to him, why are you crying, Thomas, And Thomas says,

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Speaker 2: because you're accusing me of something I didn't do. He

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Speaker 2: had the presence of mind to articulate exactly what he

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Speaker 2: was feeling.

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Speaker 1: Is unbelievable from a twelve year old little and a

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Speaker 1: twelve year old who had just gone through this this

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Speaker 1: level of trauma. I mean to be that self aware.

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Speaker 1: I'm crying because you're accusing me of something I didn't do.

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Speaker 2: And the detective he's not yelling, he's not screaming, but

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Speaker 2: he's pressing the point it had to be you, boy.

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Speaker 1: So Thomas right is a smart kid. He's an Honoraal student,

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Speaker 1: and you can see his mind starts spinning. He's trying

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Speaker 1: to figure a way out of this horrific situation, and

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Speaker 1: he asks the officers, is there any way I can

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Speaker 1: prove to you that I didn't do this?

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Speaker 2: In no way want to okay, personally okay, A moment

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Speaker 2: he woke me up.

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Speaker 1: Ahead my lap, and his idea for proving his own

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Speaker 1: innocence is this heartbreakingly childlike idea. He fell asleep that

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Speaker 1: night at five am with a book in his lap,

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Speaker 1: and he tells the officers that if he had woken

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Speaker 1: up and killed his sister, the book would have fallen

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Speaker 1: off his lap and be on the floor of his bedroom.

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Speaker 1: And he says, go back and look in my bedroom.

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Speaker 1: You'll see that there's no book on the floor, which

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Speaker 1: proves I didn't do this. The officers reject this theory, right,

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Speaker 1: and instead they tell Thomas he had no choice but

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Speaker 1: to confess. You're going to have to tell us everything.

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Speaker 1: Thomas keeps denying his guilt as the pressure is turned

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Speaker 1: up dozens of times over and over. He tells him

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Speaker 1: he didn't kill his sister, and of course it's the

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Speaker 1: officer's job to cut through those denials to make him

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Speaker 1: believe the case against him is rock solid to bring

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Speaker 1: him down to that point of hopelessness. So they lie

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Speaker 1: to twelve year old Thomas. They lie, They say to him,

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Speaker 1: their investigation is going to find his fingerprints on the

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Speaker 1: plastic bag that was over Kaylee's head, and his fingerprints

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Speaker 1: are going to be at a certain angle that somehow

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Speaker 1: indicates that he had held the bag over his sister's head.

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Speaker 2: And then they offer inducements to get him to confess. Thomas,

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Speaker 2: you're twelve years old. If you confess, we're here to

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Speaker 2: help you and your mother, You've got to be flat

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Speaker 2: honest with us so that we can help you. You're

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Speaker 2: going to need some help to get rid of this guilt.

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Speaker 4: We're here to help you and your.

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Speaker 3: Mother, Okay, But you've got to be flat honest with

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Speaker 3: us so we can help you. Okay. Return.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's the help theme again versus punishment. We're here

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Speaker 2: to help you, that's what we want to do, Temas.

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Speaker 1: And it's at this point during the interrogation that the

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Speaker 1: officers introduce their theory of the crime. In other words,

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Speaker 1: they start telling Thomas what it is they want him

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Speaker 1: to say. Could it have been an accident? They asked Thomas,

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Speaker 1: even though the crime is scene obviously indicates that what

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Speaker 1: happened to Kayley was was clearly no accident, and Thomas,

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Speaker 1: who's crying and scared out of his mind, says, this

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Speaker 1: possibility and I don't, well, it's a possibility. It could

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Speaker 1: have been an accident. And I don't remember it.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember tomorrow?

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Speaker 4: You knows.

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Speaker 1: This goes on, Okay, it goes on for more than

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Speaker 1: an hour, and by the end it culminates in this

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Speaker 1: horrible ten minute segment where Thomas is left alone. The

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Speaker 1: officers step out of the room, but the camera is

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Speaker 1: still running, and he starts rocking back and forth in

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Speaker 1: his seat and muttering to himself. It's like halfway distinguishable gibberish.

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Speaker 2: Nobody came, so I didn't do it?

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Speaker 1: Why she wanted to do it? Why mom wouldn't do this.

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Speaker 1: She loves her daughter, doesn't she? She loves me. I

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Speaker 1: didn't do it, that's the bottom line. But they don't

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Speaker 1: believe me. Help. I'm scared.

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Speaker 2: We've seen cases where people are reduced to a place

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Speaker 2: where they're crawled up in a fetal position on the

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Speaker 2: floor from these tactics, and they're working their magic on Thomas.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's so hard to watch. This is psychological torture,

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Speaker 1: and this moment, the emotional breakdown of Thomas, this is

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Speaker 1: the moment when police decide to turn off the video camera.

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Speaker 2: There's no excuse for that. I think what they began

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Speaker 2: to realize was that this was awful what they were

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Speaker 2: recording on tape, and Thomas had reached a place where

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Speaker 2: he was having a breakdown and he still would not

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Speaker 2: confess to this crime. So they needed some time to

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Speaker 2: try to work on him outside of the interrogation room

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Speaker 2: with the.

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Speaker 1: Camera off exactly, and outside of this camera which was

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Speaker 1: recording this trail of emotional destruction that would turn off

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Speaker 1: any judge, any jury, any listener in America. So they

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Speaker 1: turned off the camera for what they later called a

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Speaker 1: break questioning r a break that ended up lasting about

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Speaker 1: three and a half hours. Now, it's perfectly legal for

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Speaker 1: them to turn off the camera, right That's the thing

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Speaker 1: there was, and in fact, there still is no law

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Speaker 1: in Arkansas requiring interrogations to be recorded in full.

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Speaker 2: We need to have the truth, the whole truth, and

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Speaker 2: nothing but the truth of what happens in the interrogation room.

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Speaker 2: We can't allow law enforcement officers to have the discretion

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Speaker 2: on when depressed the stop button.

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Speaker 1: Later, when the state was prosecuting this case, it said

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Speaker 1: that all that happened during this break was that the

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Speaker 1: deputy prosecutor sat with Thomas while he had something to eat, right,

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Speaker 1: And during that break, while he was eating, the prosecutor

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Speaker 1: said that Thomas just spontaneously decided to blurt out a

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Speaker 1: confession to killing his sister. Right, not being questioned, not

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Speaker 1: being pressured, not being manipulated, not being lied to. He

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Speaker 1: just blurts it out in the middle of eating this hamburger.

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Speaker 2: And this is a common refrain that we hear from

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Speaker 2: law enforcement officers, the spontaneous confession. And why is it common? Well,

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Speaker 2: if someone blurts out at confession without any prompting or

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Speaker 2: persuasion by the police, police officers don't need to read

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Speaker 2: them their miranda rights.

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Speaker 1: It's not until ten twenty pm that officers turn the

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Speaker 1: video camera back on. We're back now in the same

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Speaker 1: interrogation room with Thomas sitting in the same seat as

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Speaker 1: in the earlier session. But what we now see and

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Speaker 1: hear is a very different Thomas Coddle.

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Speaker 2: Right, Cole H, I am to actually feel good and

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Speaker 2: good and you know, it's like a completely different person

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Speaker 2: in that interrogation room. He is calm, he is cool,

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Speaker 2: he is collected. He seems to be eager to want

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Speaker 2: to help police officers. And it's as if someone presses

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Speaker 2: the play button and he starts telling a story that

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Speaker 2: involves and implicates him in his sister's death.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. He's almost cheerful while he's reciting the story, one

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Speaker 1: that sounds really rehearsed and practiced. He tells a story

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Speaker 1: in which Kaylee had been in her bed, apparently sleeping,

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Speaker 1: and Thomas had tied her hands and feet to slower down.

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Speaker 1: He says when she got out of bed, he didn't

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Speaker 1: mean to hurt her, and then he described putting a

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Speaker 1: plastic bag over her head, leaving the room, then going

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Speaker 1: back and loosening it so that air could get in there.

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Speaker 1: But even this story, right, this confession to being involved

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Speaker 1: in the death of his sister, it develops inconsistencies. The

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Speaker 1: police have him go through it a second time, and

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Speaker 1: this time they have him take out the part where

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Speaker 1: it was an accident. On the second go round, Thomas

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Speaker 1: said he put two bags on Kaylee's head because the

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Speaker 1: first one had a hole in it, and he said

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Speaker 1: he held the bags there until she started twitching. In

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Speaker 1: this account, he says he tied her up after she

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Speaker 1: was smothered.

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Speaker 3: You shit bags and one more bags?

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Speaker 2: Why did you used to because the other one had

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Speaker 2: a hole in it? Okay, so she's charged.

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Speaker 4: You've gone. You've got these things to tie.

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Speaker 2: Her wrists and to tie her legs, and you.

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Speaker 3: Do that for fear that she's gonna wake up and

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Speaker 3: come hurt you.

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Speaker 2: That's what you're telling us. Then what do you do?

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Speaker 4: And I turn onto TV as I said, leave home

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Speaker 4: and go back to me, and then I false lea.

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Speaker 1: And it's this story, this concession, that leads to Thomas's

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Speaker 1: arrest and being charged in juvenile court with his own

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Speaker 1: sister's murder.

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Speaker 2: But it's still not quite the end of the story,

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Speaker 2: because as soon as Thomas gives this strangely calm confession,

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Speaker 2: the police bring in his mother, Melody.

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Speaker 1: They're probably hoping that Thomas is gonna confess to his

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Speaker 1: mom and then they'll have another piece of evidence that

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Speaker 1: they can use against Tom. But what does Thomas say, Well,

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Speaker 1: he leans over and he whispers to his mother something

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Speaker 1: that he's obviously trying to say without the camera picking

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Speaker 1: it up. Thomas whispers to his mom not to worry,

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Speaker 1: just go along with it. He didn't really do it

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Speaker 1: and they won't find his fingerprints on the bag. The

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Speaker 1: interrogators want to know what he whispered to his mother,

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Speaker 1: so they ask her when they have her alone again,

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Speaker 1: what did he whisper to you?

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Speaker 2: Did he go along with what he said because he said.

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Speaker 3: He didn't do it and that y'all wouldn't find his fingerprints?

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Speaker 1: What does he mean? Thomas knows his fingerprints aren't on

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Speaker 1: the bags that were found over his sister's head because

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Speaker 1: he never touched those bags. He believes that the absence

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Speaker 1: of his fingerprints will prove his confession false and set

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Speaker 1: him free. And then he appears to think that, having

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Speaker 1: done as he was told, after having confessed to the

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Speaker 1: murder of his own sister, he's going to walk out

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Speaker 1: of that room and go to his cousin's house. Instead,

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Speaker 1: police come back in place Thomas under arrest and charge

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Speaker 1: him with the murder of his own sister.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit about Thomas's confession. One

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Speaker 2: of the best ways to measure the reliability of a

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Speaker 2: confession is to look at the evidence that corroborates it,

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Speaker 2: and in Thomas's case, there was no corroboration linking Thomas

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Speaker 2: to this crime. They took that cloth measuring tape and

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Speaker 2: they sent it to the lab for DNA testing. Thomas's

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Speaker 2: DNA wasn't on that cloth measuring tape. Instead, another male's

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Speaker 2: DNA was on that tape. And the story didn't account

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Speaker 2: for other findings that the medical examiner had made. Caylee

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Speaker 2: had bruising on her forehead, suggesting that there was some

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Speaker 2: beating or some kind of a struggle before she had

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Speaker 2: been killed, and Thomas's confession said nothing about a beating

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Speaker 2: or a struggle.

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Speaker 1: There's such a lack of corroboration of Thomas's story and

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Speaker 1: the psychological tactics that were used to extract this story,

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Speaker 1: including fact feeding, including threats and promises. This confession bears

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Speaker 1: so many red flags. But let's talk for a minute though,

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Speaker 1: about that three and a half hour period when the

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Speaker 1: video camera was turned off. I mean, you look at

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Speaker 1: this and it just stinks to high heaven when they

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Speaker 1: press that stop button and then somehow Lo and Behold

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Speaker 1: come back with a confession and a completely different child.

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Speaker 1: What happened during that time. How did Thomas turn from

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Speaker 1: this panicked child having an emotional breakdown to a cool, calm, confident,

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Speaker 1: confessed murderer.

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Speaker 2: To hear it from Thomas, this was no spontaneous outburst

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Speaker 2: suggesting that he was guilty the whole time. This was

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Speaker 2: part of an interrogation process that actually was ramped up

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Speaker 2: during that three and a half hour period.

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Speaker 1: Thomas has said that the interrogation continued after he had

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Speaker 1: that emotional breakdown and was taken out of the room

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Speaker 1: that off camera, the police had continued telling him that

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Speaker 1: it was either going to be you or your mother,

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Speaker 1: and that he needed to stand up and be a

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Speaker 1: man and admit what he did and if he did

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Speaker 1: then he'd be able to go home. Right That's why

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Speaker 1: he later thought he was going to be able to

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Speaker 1: go back to his cousin's house after confessing to the

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Speaker 1: murder of his own sister. And Thomas also told his

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Speaker 1: court appointed psychologist that they told him that if he

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Speaker 1: didn't confess, he a twelve year old, would be charged

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Speaker 1: as an adult and could get the death penalty.

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Speaker 2: Or his mother could get the death penalty if he

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Speaker 2: didn't confess, because there are only two people who could

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Speaker 2: have been guilty of this crime, Thomas or his mother.

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Speaker 1: So we have these two different stories of what happened

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Speaker 1: during this three and a half hour period. Off camera,

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Speaker 1: the prosecutor says Thomas is eating and he spontaneously confesses.

400
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 1: But to Thomas has a story of continuing pressure, continuing manipulation,

401
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,200
Speaker 1: all occurring off camera. So how do we weigh those

402
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: two accounts well. During Thomas's break in questioning Melody, the

403
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Speaker 1: mom is reinterviewed a second time on video camera, and

404
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 1: during that second interview of Melody, you can hear a loud,

405
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Speaker 1: deep male voice yell Thomas, I'm not going to ask

406
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Speaker 1: you again. Thomas is being questioned. That much is really clear,

407
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Speaker 1: and he's being yelled at. That horrible process that we

408
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Speaker 1: saw earlier is still happening just off camera.

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Speaker 2: Thomas is convicted despite the heroic efforts of a very

410
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Speaker 2: good attorney who Laura and I met for the first

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Speaker 2: time in this case. Thomas's attorney was a public defender

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Speaker 2: named Dorsey Corbin.

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Speaker 4: My name is Dorsey Corbin, and I represented Thomas Cogdaal

414
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 4: from seven months after he was charged with murder until

415
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Speaker 4: the Supreme Court handed down its opinion on May six,

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Speaker 4: twenty ten.

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Speaker 2: She had challenged the confession aggressively before trial and lost,

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Speaker 2: and she had tried this case very effectively.

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Speaker 1: Confessions are one of the most powerful forms of evidence,

420
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Speaker 1: and it can be incredibly hard to unwind these cases.

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Speaker 1: After the fact, eighty one percent of false confessors who

422
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 1: took their case to trial were convicted even though they

423
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Speaker 1: were factually innocence of these crimes.

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Speaker 4: Okay, can I talk about things that don't make sense

425
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Speaker 4: in this whole case. The police, they originally thought that

426
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Speaker 4: Kaylee must have died somewhere between two thirty or three thirty,

427
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Speaker 4: and that was the time frame that Thomas used in

428
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,959
Speaker 4: his confession. Lividity is the process which after death, your

429
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 4: blood settles because of basically gravity. So if you're laying

430
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 4: on your back, you're going to have red marks on

431
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 4: the back where the blood settles. The medical exammeinter tests

432
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 4: that lividity stops after six to eight hours. However, the

433
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 4: pictures taken at the crime scene at twelve oh two

434
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Speaker 4: pm in the afternoon and at one fifty in the

435
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 4: afternoon showed continuing lividity, the time of death being six

436
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 4: to eight hours before two pm. In the afternoon, is

437
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 4: well after the time Thomas had gone to sleep, and

438
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 4: the police never made him change that part of his story.

439
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 4: He didn't do this in his sleep and somehow managed

440
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 4: to leave no fingerprints, no DNA. It just didn't happen

441
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 4: at the hands of Thomas. The judge had heard all

442
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 4: of the evidence from the very beginning, but the.

443
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 2: Power of the confession again was so strong that the

444
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 2: juvenile court judge believed the confession.

445
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 4: Very few people can understand how or why anyone would

446
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 4: admit to a crime they didn't commit.

447
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 1: So Thomas has sent off to a juvenile detention facility

448
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: in Texarkana, where he was sentenced to stay there until

449
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: his eighteenth birthday. Dorsey Corbin, meanwhile, his public defender, continued

450
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 1: fighting his case. She took Thomas's case to the Arkansas

451
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: Court of Appeals and argued about the confession there lost,

452
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 1: and then she decided to take the case to the

453
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 1: Arkansas Supreme Court. And that's when we got involved. When

454
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 1: we first heard about Thomas's case, it was right when

455
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: we were getting ready for Brendan Dassi's post conviction hearing

456
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: in Manitoba, Wisconsin, and we reached out to Dorsey Corbin,

457
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 1: and when she learned that the Arkansas Supreme Court had

458
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: agreed to hear Thomas's case, she asked us to file

459
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: an amicus brief. Write a brief from experts explaining the

460
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 1: problem of false confessions and explaining how kids like Thomas

461
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 1: are more likely to falsely confess than adults, believe it

462
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: or not. When you're in the part of the appeals

463
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: process called a direct appeal, you can't file it based

464
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: on whether the confession is true or false. Instead, the

465
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: only argument that you can make is whether the confession

466
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 1: was coerced or forced, and whether there were any problems

467
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 1: with the way in which police read the defendant his

468
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 1: Miranda rights. These are the right to remain silent, the

469
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: right to have a lawyer with you during questioning.

470
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 2: The defendant has to knowingly and intelligently waive his Miranda rights.

471
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 2: So if the suspect, because of his or her vulnerabilities,

472
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: doesn't understand those rights, that's another way to attack the confession.

473
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: What was Dorsey doing in this case? For Thomas? Here

474
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: we have a twelve year old in the interrogation room

475
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: who's being told that he has a constitutional right to

476
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: silence and a lawyer, all these difficult concepts. They tell

477
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: him he has these rights and then they ask him,

478
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: do you agree to waive these rights?

479
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: Well, you sign a waiver. And this is where inquisitiveness

480
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 2: saved the day for Thomas. The detective asks him to

481
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 2: sign a waiver, and Thomas said, what's a waiver? You know,

482
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 2: a waiver is a legal term exactly. You know, every

483
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 2: time you go bungee jumping, you have to sign a

484
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 2: waiver to protect the business from getting sued.

485
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: Here's Thomas about to go off the cliff, right, I

486
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: mean a different kind of cliff.

487
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 2: So the detective freezes and he's never been asked that question.

488
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: He says, well, this simply states that what you were doing,

489
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: you were doing of your own free will. That's not

490
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: what a waiver means. That that's not what it means

491
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 1: to give up your rights. This is the issue that

492
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: Dorsey Corbyn, Thomas's lawyer, brought before the Arkansas Supreme Court,

493
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: and it was the issue that we supported her with

494
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: by writing an amicus brief that not only talks about

495
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: how insane it is the twelve year olds like Thomas

496
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: are allowed to waive their constitutional rights without any adult

497
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: advising them, but that also highlighted all of the reasons

498
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: why this confession we thought was not worth the tape

499
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: it was recorded on, and it worked.

500
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 2: The Arkansas Supreme Court held that the detective's explanation of

501
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 2: what a waiver was was wrong, and that as a result,

502
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 2: Thomas did not knowingly and intelligently wave his Miranda rights.

503
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 2: The confession was out and the conviction was overturned.

504
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 4: It angers me so much that police officers lie to children,

505
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 4: isolate children, and do all the terrible things that they

506
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 4: did to Thomas in this interrogation, and God only knows

507
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 4: what they did to him for the three and a

508
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 4: half hours that they didn't bother to put the tape on.

509
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: Because he was an honor roll student, he wanted to

510
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: make sure he understood this new he hadn't heard before waiver.

511
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: That's what freed him. How many other Thomas Cogdals are

512
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,959
Speaker 1: there out there, children twelve, thirteen, fourteen years old, who

513
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: were interrogated in just this way, but who didn't have

514
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: that moment of good fortune in a way to be

515
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: able to ask what a word means, As.

516
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 4: The captain of the police force said at the time

517
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 4: of trial, had we known at the interview. What we

518
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 4: know now, we would have conducted the interview differently. That

519
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 4: speaks volumes. They focused in on Thomas, they had tunnel vision,

520
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 4: and their sole goal was to get a confession out

521
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 4: of a scared twelve year old boy. Congratulations, they did it.

522
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: No one else has ever been charged with the murder

523
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: of Kaylee Cogdal.

524
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 4: Thomas deserves closure, and equally importantly, Thomas's sister deserves justice.

525
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: Melody never confessed to this crime. And the bottom line

526
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: is police and prosecutors made a judgment that there wasn't

527
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: enough evidence pointing to an alternative suspect. We weren't there

528
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: on the scene. We can't tell you what the evidence

529
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: on the scene shoulder who had pointed to. But what

530
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: we do know is that Thomas's confession is false. Two

531
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: weeks or so after the Arkansas Supreme Court, throughout his conviction,

532
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: Thomas was free living with his grandparents.

533
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 4: When he was younger, his mother had taken Thomas and

534
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 4: his sister to the Department of Human Services and basically said, here,

535
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 4: take these kids. I can't deal with them anymore. I

536
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 4: suspect that when Thomas came back he felt somewhat of

537
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 4: a burden to be more of a caretaker for both

538
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 4: his mother and for his sister after the murder.

539
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: I think it was very.

540
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 4: Important for Thomas to live with people who would take

541
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 4: care of him, nurture him, and love him. He found

542
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 4: that with his grandparents, and they were so very happy

543
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 4: to have him their home.

544
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: Despite the ordeal of trial and conviction, everything that Thomas

545
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: went through after he was released, he still had dreams.

546
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: He wants to be an astronomer, and he wants to

547
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: go where people don't know him. Thomas, wherever you are,

548
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: we wish you all the best.

549
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 2: My friend and Dorsey, thank you so much for allowing

550
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 2: us to play a role in this case.

551
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: It's a great honor to be able to work with

552
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: people like Dorsey to fight for the freedom of kids

553
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: like Thomas. But there are larger questions here. What can

554
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: we do to prevent these kinds of cases from happening again?

555
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: What kinds of reforms are needed. One of the laws

556
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: that Steve has been fighting for is a law requiring

557
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 1: lawyers in the interrogation room for kids like Thomas, not

558
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: allowing them to give up their rights to a lawyer,

559
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: but rather insisting that they have someone there by their

560
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: side to advise.

561
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 2: Them, and they need help in understanding what the Mirianda

562
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 2: warnings are and understanding what the consequence witz are of

563
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 2: giving them up. That's why you need lawyers to be

564
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 2: an advocate for that child in the interrogation room.

565
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Thomas Cogdell's story. Next week, we'll

566
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: take you to a small farmtown in Nebraska that was

567
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: racked by a double murder, a false confession, and a

568
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: surprising twist that sounds like it's right out of a

569
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:31,879
Speaker 1: Tarantino movie. Until then, thanks for listening. Wrongful Conviction, False

570
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: Confessions is the production of Lava for Good Podcasts in

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00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number One. Special thanks to our

572
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 1: executive producer Jason Flamm and the team at Signal Company

573
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: number one. Executive producer Kevin wardis Senior producer and Pope,

574
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: and additional production and editing by Connor Hall. Our music

575
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: was composed by Jay Ralph. You can follow me on

576
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: Instagram or Twitter at Laura Nyrider and you.

577
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,760
Speaker 2: Can follow me on Twitter at s Drizzen.

578
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: For more information on the show, visit Wrongful Conviction podcast

579
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: dot com and be sure to follow the show on

580
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast,

581
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Speaker 1: and on Twitter at wrong Conviction