1
00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:21,920
Speaker 1: Buddybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. When you're in academics, in

2
00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,599
Speaker 1: my area of academics, forensics in particular, in order to

3
00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,200
Speaker 1: kind of validate yourself, I guess professionally, one of the

4
00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,639
Speaker 1: things that's required is that you go to meetings. We

5
00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,800
Speaker 1: always have meetings, right, You have these meetings that you

6
00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,040
Speaker 1: attend with colleagues from all over the country, all over

7
00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:42,480
Speaker 1: the world, and you listen to papers. Saying you listen

8
00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:44,559
Speaker 1: to papers, it's kind of odd, but you do. You

9
00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,879
Speaker 1: listen to studies that have been conducted by colleagues in

10
00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,600
Speaker 1: different areas. And one of the coolest meetings that you

11
00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,360
Speaker 1: can ever go to is the American Academy of Forensic Science.

12
00:00:55,400 --> 00:01:00,360
Speaker 1: And several years back I attended the AAFS conference, I

13
00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,360
Speaker 1: think it was WOW in New Orleans all those years ago,

14
00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,679
Speaker 1: and I went to a talk by a forensic odentologist.

15
00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,560
Speaker 1: This guy was from out West, and as you know,

16
00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:15,480
Speaker 1: odentologists not only examined the human mouth in order to

17
00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:21,080
Speaker 1: determine identity, but they also examined bodies for bite marks.

18
00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,319
Speaker 1: And this was an unusual talk because he was talking

19
00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,479
Speaker 1: about an attack. But the attack that he was talking

20
00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:33,080
Speaker 1: about had nothing to do with the attacker being a human.

21
00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,160
Speaker 1: You see, this odentologist was from Colorado and the case

22
00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,160
Speaker 1: that he was talking about happened to be one of

23
00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:43,640
Speaker 1: the most ghastly cases I've ever seen in a presentation,

24
00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,160
Speaker 1: and it had to do with a jogger who was

25
00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,560
Speaker 1: attacked by a mountain lion. Don't know that I've ever

26
00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,520
Speaker 1: seen like, don't know that I've ever seen injuries like that,

27
00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,200
Speaker 1: but I do know this. During the course of that talk,

28
00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,080
Speaker 1: given all the horrible things I'd seen, the one thing

29
00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:03,080
Speaker 1: that never came up was a mountain digging a shallow grave. Today,

30
00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,440
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the forensics surrounding the Suzanne

31
00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:17,480
Speaker 1: Morphew case. I'm Joseph gott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. Well,

32
00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,040
Speaker 1: we're back in the sut We're back from crime con

33
00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,080
Speaker 1: and boy, what news did we come home to the

34
00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,959
Speaker 1: Susanne Morphy case. And look, we've been talking on different

35
00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,600
Speaker 1: platforms for I don't know loath these many years months.

36
00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,480
Speaker 1: Did you see this coming? Did you even expect to

37
00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:35,320
Speaker 1: get this news?

38
00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,520
Speaker 2: No, not even close. And Joe, as you mentioned, we

39
00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,400
Speaker 2: have been on this since it happened, since Suzanne Moorefew

40
00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,800
Speaker 2: went missing that first day we have been on this

41
00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,400
Speaker 2: case happened on Mother's Day. When a mother goes missing

42
00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,239
Speaker 2: on Mother's Day, that is going to be a huge

43
00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:55,760
Speaker 2: flag up in the air. Every all hands on deck,

44
00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,520
Speaker 2: and we have been ever since. It's like many many cases,

45
00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,320
Speaker 2: they get more play in the media. If you've got pictures.

46
00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:03,839
Speaker 1: Look.

47
00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,560
Speaker 2: Suzanne Morphew is a very attractive forty nine year old

48
00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,760
Speaker 2: woman and her husband an attractive man, Barry. They've got

49
00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,320
Speaker 2: two beautiful daughters. They've been married twenty five years. This

50
00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,320
Speaker 2: is a scenario where hey, man Barry is obvious, is

51
00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,520
Speaker 2: at work that day, she goes for a bike ride

52
00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,120
Speaker 2: and goes missing on the outside looking in. This is

53
00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:28,359
Speaker 2: a horrible accident of something. She's been abducted, she has

54
00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,360
Speaker 2: been attacked. I mean, what happened to Suzanne Morphew. And

55
00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,240
Speaker 2: we weren't the only ones. Joe, Holy Moly. There was

56
00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,480
Speaker 2: a football team size of reporters around the country that

57
00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,560
Speaker 2: headed to Colorado when this first happened, and the whole

58
00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,000
Speaker 2: thought was where is she?

59
00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she just seemingly vanished into thin air. It

60
00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,200
Speaker 1: had been put out there that on Mother's Day she

61
00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,960
Speaker 1: was going for a bike ride and you would think

62
00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,320
Speaker 1: that there would be something to kind of hang your

63
00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:02,360
Speaker 1: intellectual hat on with that, And soon we actually found

64
00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,320
Speaker 1: found out that they had recovered a bike. I think

65
00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:06,200
Speaker 1: I don't.

66
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,360
Speaker 2: Know who suggested she was on a bike ride. I

67
00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,920
Speaker 2: don't know if that came from Barry Morphew, from the

68
00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,680
Speaker 2: next door neighbor or whomever. All we know is that

69
00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,760
Speaker 2: Barry Morphew was out of town on business, a construction job,

70
00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,600
Speaker 2: and Suzanne. He couldn't reach Suzanne by the phone, and

71
00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,000
Speaker 2: so I guess he called a neighbor. Would you look

72
00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,160
Speaker 2: in steev see her? And then is her bike there? No,

73
00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,120
Speaker 2: her bike's not there. She must have gone on a

74
00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,840
Speaker 2: bike ride. So they're checking the bike trail and that's

75
00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,080
Speaker 2: where they find a bike. And deputies found the bike.

76
00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,400
Speaker 2: And I actually I told you this little while ago.

77
00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:41,400
Speaker 2: I was watching the video because I wanted to know

78
00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:45,039
Speaker 2: Barry's demeanor when they find the bike and it's already dark.

79
00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,520
Speaker 2: As Barry gets there on site, he asked basic questions,

80
00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,000
Speaker 2: where's where did you find it? What condition was the

81
00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,520
Speaker 2: bike end? And with Joe twenty eight seconds after he

82
00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,000
Speaker 2: gets out of his truck, he says, could it have

83
00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:00,760
Speaker 2: been a mountain lion attacking her on her bike. That

84
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,600
Speaker 2: was twenty eight seconds into Barry Morphew as part of

85
00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,640
Speaker 2: the investigation, could a mountain lion grab a bike rider

86
00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:09,760
Speaker 2: and drag their body to where we can't find it?

87
00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,640
Speaker 1: Well, this is the thing about and a mountain lion

88
00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,000
Speaker 1: out there here this term apex predator that's thrown around

89
00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,640
Speaker 1: down in my area of the country. The apex predator

90
00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,880
Speaker 1: in our area are certainly alligators, I think, or where

91
00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,280
Speaker 1: I come from. They're kind of the top of the heap,

92
00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,159
Speaker 1: and they have a particular way that they're if they're

93
00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,360
Speaker 1: going to attack something, it's kind of ingrained into their

94
00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,800
Speaker 1: DNA as to how they go about it. And out

95
00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,159
Speaker 1: in that area, I would think that a mountain lion

96
00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,159
Speaker 1: would be at the top. They would be the apex

97
00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,200
Speaker 1: predator out in that region. I guess you could argue

98
00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,799
Speaker 1: that a bear would be. Here's kind of the curious

99
00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,040
Speaker 1: thing that I learned, and I think back to that

100
00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,039
Speaker 1: talk that I sat in all those years ago, and

101
00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,719
Speaker 1: the way it was described to me is that most

102
00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,200
Speaker 1: of the time when these things attack, they love to

103
00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,960
Speaker 1: attack from a height. The way this is kind of

104
00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,680
Speaker 1: structured out my understanding at least as best as I can,

105
00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,840
Speaker 1: is that they will sit perhaps on like a rocky outcropping,

106
00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:14,000
Speaker 1: and they will wait until a prey like prey come

107
00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,640
Speaker 1: through their particular area, their hunting grounds, and they sit

108
00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,120
Speaker 1: there very quietly and they wait until the prey passes them,

109
00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,360
Speaker 1: and the next thing you know, they're on the back

110
00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,080
Speaker 1: of this thing, whatever it is that they're after. That's

111
00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,200
Speaker 1: the way this lady was attacked out in Colorado, who

112
00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,600
Speaker 1: was actually a jogger that was running through the woods

113
00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,360
Speaker 1: through a they had like a one of those outdoor

114
00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,400
Speaker 1: running paths that goes through the tree line and it's

115
00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,000
Speaker 1: real lovely to see, and they showed images of the

116
00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:42,800
Speaker 1: and it was the only thing about it. It's had

117
00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,320
Speaker 1: a big rock out cropping where this thing kind of

118
00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,200
Speaker 1: sat up above, and that's the way they attacked. I

119
00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,240
Speaker 1: can't imagine, and I guess it could happen. I'm not

120
00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,279
Speaker 1: an animal behaviorist, but there are cars that are going

121
00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,159
Speaker 1: by in that area because it's a jacent hill road

122
00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,560
Speaker 1: where this bicycle was found kind of down in a

123
00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,600
Speaker 1: gull that sort of thing. I can't imagine there would

124
00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:04,840
Speaker 1: be a place for a mountain lion to sit there

125
00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,680
Speaker 1: and wait, and it's very disruptive right when that hunting area,

126
00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,280
Speaker 1: you know, with cars going by and all of that stuff. Now,

127
00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,040
Speaker 1: this is a very you know, you're south of Gunnison, Colorado.

128
00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:18,000
Speaker 1: Here it is desolate and it's beautiful, but it's desolate.

129
00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:20,280
Speaker 1: You're just south of where the ski slopes are and

130
00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,840
Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff. Beautiful countryside, but very isolated.

131
00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,920
Speaker 1: So this thing is sitting adjacent to the roadway waiting

132
00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,280
Speaker 1: for a bicyclist to come by. And I don't necessarily

133
00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,280
Speaker 1: know that Mountain Lion would have been my first choice.

134
00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:35,760
Speaker 1: I mean, to each his own. But if you're checking

135
00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,720
Speaker 1: off the list and you're thinking Apex predator, I guess

136
00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:39,400
Speaker 1: that could happen.

137
00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:41,720
Speaker 2: I don't think it was anybody's first list, Joe. I

138
00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,200
Speaker 2: think you're right. I think the deputies that look at

139
00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,160
Speaker 2: one another like where is this coming from? And one

140
00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,560
Speaker 2: thing I looked at right when this happened as we

141
00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:54,560
Speaker 2: were investigating, is that a Mountain Lion's very territorial and

142
00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,760
Speaker 2: they don't share. They actually have this is my area,

143
00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,360
Speaker 2: and you don't come here, they go find another area.

144
00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:05,240
Speaker 2: They're very spread out in this entire area that we're

145
00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,880
Speaker 2: talking about. Here miles upon miles upon miles. There's only

146
00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,200
Speaker 2: three mountain lions in this whole area. And I dare

147
00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,920
Speaker 2: say they're not going against their hunting style by hunting

148
00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,800
Speaker 2: in a ravine, in a ditch on gravel and bushes.

149
00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:22,800
Speaker 1: I just I can't feature that, and I can only

150
00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,080
Speaker 1: imagine their rain just got to be massive that they

151
00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,080
Speaker 1: cover that they have laid their claim to. So they're

152
00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:32,280
Speaker 1: out there protecting what is theirs. Here's the problem is

153
00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,880
Speaker 1: that when this bike is discovered, there's no evidence that

154
00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,640
Speaker 1: an attack has necessarily taken place relative to this apex predator.

155
00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:46,520
Speaker 1: All you got is singularly a bike, and it's distinctly hers.

156
00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,079
Speaker 1: Apparently it's it's a bike that she had used, Susanne,

157
00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,040
Speaker 1: that is, And so that gives you pause. And I

158
00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,680
Speaker 1: think that the next thing you talk about apex predators,

159
00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,920
Speaker 1: first thing comes to mind from me, aside from a

160
00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,520
Speaker 1: wild beast is going to be another beast, and that's

161
00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,760
Speaker 1: a human being. So are we talking about somebody that

162
00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,240
Speaker 1: had snatched her while she was out riding the bike?

163
00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,079
Speaker 1: Who would be that bold in order to do that?

164
00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:14,679
Speaker 1: And how did you get her off the bike? Did

165
00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,840
Speaker 1: their bump her get her off the road, maybe take

166
00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:19,960
Speaker 1: the bike and discard it off in this kind of

167
00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,280
Speaker 1: unseen area. I don't know, but it just it struck

168
00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:25,480
Speaker 1: me as very odd at the time. I have to

169
00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:26,160
Speaker 1: say it.

170
00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,160
Speaker 2: Struck everybody that way, and which is why there was

171
00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,880
Speaker 2: this huge investigation. You know right away, Joe, when we

172
00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,960
Speaker 2: look at the timeline here breaking it down, May tenth

173
00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:40,640
Speaker 2: is when she disappeared. On May eleventh, search efforts are ongoing.

174
00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:42,880
Speaker 2: They brought out the drones, they brought out a cent

175
00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,880
Speaker 2: tracking dogs. Family of Suzanne offers up two hundred thousand

176
00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,920
Speaker 2: dollars in reward money on the fourteenth. We're talking less

177
00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,080
Speaker 2: than a week into it. They're offering up two hundred

178
00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,760
Speaker 2: thousand dollars for information that doesn't usually happen that quickly.

179
00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,360
Speaker 2: So in trying to get this information, Joe, very quickly,

180
00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,800
Speaker 2: within a couple of days, we start finding things. On

181
00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,120
Speaker 2: May fifteenth, some personal items of Suzanne Morpheus were found

182
00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:10,280
Speaker 2: in and around the search area. That May seventeenth, the

183
00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,840
Speaker 2: Sheriffs Dive and Rescue team search waters and water sites

184
00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,760
Speaker 2: and things like that. I guess there's a normal pathway

185
00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,120
Speaker 2: to searching an outdoor area. Of the groups that you

186
00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,959
Speaker 2: call in you know, from volunteers searching the ground, drones

187
00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,400
Speaker 2: in the air, horseback dogs, things like that, and they

188
00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,959
Speaker 2: went everywhere. Nothing was found in terms of her. They

189
00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:29,720
Speaker 2: found her helmet.

190
00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's yeah, they found the helmet. When you

191
00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:36,560
Speaker 1: think about kind of the intimate nature and I'm talking

192
00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,880
Speaker 1: about this from a physical standpoint of a bike helmet,

193
00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:44,480
Speaker 1: it's in direct contact with obviously the head, but that

194
00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,080
Speaker 1: layer beneath their the scalp, you have the hair, and

195
00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,320
Speaker 1: if there's any kind of trauma that might be associated

196
00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,680
Speaker 1: with the head where you have an open wound, you'll

197
00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:59,720
Speaker 1: have blood contained within that helmet. I don't see haven't

198
00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,800
Speaker 1: heard over the course of this investigation that when this

199
00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,360
Speaker 1: helmet was discovered that there was any necessarily any kind

200
00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,559
Speaker 1: of evidence biological evidence like that, you know, that would

201
00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,200
Speaker 1: indicate trauma, you know, where you've got a tremendous amount

202
00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,199
Speaker 1: of blood or something like that that's kind of staining

203
00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,920
Speaker 1: the interior of this thing side. I'd have a real

204
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,280
Speaker 1: hard time putting that together.

205
00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,839
Speaker 2: I think when the search, I don't want to say

206
00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,400
Speaker 2: it ended, because I don't think they ever stopped looking,

207
00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:30,160
Speaker 2: but the active searches of actually, let's partner up and

208
00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,880
Speaker 2: go and walk this area. They were really worried about

209
00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,840
Speaker 2: the weather turning on them, and it did because of

210
00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,400
Speaker 2: the area they live in, as you mentioned, they pipe

211
00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:42,720
Speaker 2: in the sunshine. This case didn't necessarily go cold, but

212
00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,559
Speaker 2: it actually when nothing turned up, When no body turned

213
00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,320
Speaker 2: up and the police kept saying, surely we're going to

214
00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,800
Speaker 2: find something, and nothing was found. All of a sudden,

215
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,680
Speaker 2: you've got the weather turning and then saying, well, we'll

216
00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,840
Speaker 2: have a better shot after the snow melts again. And

217
00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,920
Speaker 2: here we are a couple of years later, and we

218
00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:03,760
Speaker 2: finally get the story that, as you mentioned right at

219
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,120
Speaker 2: the very beginning, after a couple of years of waiting,

220
00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,320
Speaker 2: now there's a body. What are we going to find Joe?

221
00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:11,080
Speaker 1: For real?

222
00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:15,360
Speaker 2: After all this time, what can we possibly expect to

223
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:16,960
Speaker 2: find of Susdane Morphew.

224
00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,000
Speaker 1: Well, obviously, after so much time and so much exposure,

225
00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,800
Speaker 1: in let's face it dave in a very very harsh environment,

226
00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:29,040
Speaker 1: there's not going to be an intact body. But here's

227
00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,880
Speaker 1: what I do know. The location where she was found,

228
00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,520
Speaker 1: the circumstances in which she was found defy anything that

229
00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:59,600
Speaker 1: to date I have covered on bodybacks as a death investigator.

230
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,520
Speaker 1: When you have a body that has been left behind,

231
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,640
Speaker 1: if you will, in whatever state condition that it is,

232
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:12,480
Speaker 1: it's not just the perpetrator that you're trying to outwit

233
00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:18,840
Speaker 1: your fighting nature. In Susan Morphy's case, Dave I got

234
00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,320
Speaker 1: to say, I think that I don't know of any

235
00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:25,280
Speaker 1: case where you have so many issues that investigators are

236
00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:30,000
Speaker 1: facing where every single element within nature is fighting against

237
00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:34,800
Speaker 1: you to eradicate anything that is left behind that is

238
00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:36,760
Speaker 1: the remains of Susan Morphew.

239
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,240
Speaker 2: All right, Joe, when we get down to the nitty

240
00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:43,319
Speaker 2: gritty here, the shallow grave that seems to pop up

241
00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,200
Speaker 2: in stories like this, we have somebody, there is no

242
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,719
Speaker 2: has been no trial so far. There has been unarrest

243
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:55,400
Speaker 2: made previously, but then that was before trial that was

244
00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,080
Speaker 2: thrown out, and so we're really back at square one.

245
00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:00,959
Speaker 2: I wondered at the time, how do you move forward

246
00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,839
Speaker 2: on a trial about a murder if you don't have

247
00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:04,400
Speaker 2: a body?

248
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's difficult. And we've used this term before. I

249
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,120
Speaker 1: think I like saying it corpus delecti, which is the

250
00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,800
Speaker 1: body of the crime, and it's been applied over the years.

251
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:19,080
Speaker 1: How do you prosecute something the prosecution would always want

252
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,560
Speaker 1: to have that because that is singularly the biggest piece

253
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,800
Speaker 1: of evidence that you have, because the body is telling

254
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,320
Speaker 1: you things. But in this particular case, now Dave, we

255
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:32,320
Speaker 1: can confirm that we do in fact have a corpus DELECTI,

256
00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,880
Speaker 1: we do in fact have the remains of Susan Morpheir.

257
00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,360
Speaker 2: And that actually was the reason I guess they didn't

258
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,120
Speaker 2: move forward previously was that they have a case, but

259
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,200
Speaker 2: we don't have the body. So now we have the body,

260
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,840
Speaker 2: and we know that the body was found. And I

261
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,520
Speaker 2: don't want to refer to Susanne Morphew as it, but

262
00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:56,720
Speaker 2: we are talking about what the remains of the person

263
00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,960
Speaker 2: that she used to be, the physical remains her remain.

264
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:04,080
Speaker 2: We're discarded in a shallow grave, having dug a hole

265
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,440
Speaker 2: in the desert. I've dug holes in a lot of

266
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,480
Speaker 2: different places because I'm a guy, and when guys are

267
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:11,840
Speaker 2: little boys, we dig. I don't know why.

268
00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,040
Speaker 1: We do that. Yeah, I don't understand it either, but

269
00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,680
Speaker 1: we do. That's part of what we do. That's the

270
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,000
Speaker 1: nature of it. And you said a lot I think

271
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:24,320
Speaker 1: regarding this from an environmental standpoint, where Suzanne's remains are

272
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,680
Speaker 1: actually found, the composition of the soil out there is

273
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:33,840
Speaker 1: to say that it is tightly packed is understatement. And

274
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:38,080
Speaker 1: here's what's fascinating. According to what I'm hearing right now,

275
00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,520
Speaker 1: the area in which the remains were found, it's not

276
00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,800
Speaker 1: like it's in a grove of trees necessarily, you're talking

277
00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,000
Speaker 1: about a low growth brush, which there is a lot

278
00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:52,840
Speaker 1: of out there, and it's sparse. There's not like a

279
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,760
Speaker 1: like when you think about eastern forest where you've got

280
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,120
Speaker 1: this blanket of pine straw or leaves or something like that,

281
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,880
Speaker 1: where things you think would be easily concealed. You're not

282
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,200
Speaker 1: dealing with an environment like that. You're dealing in an

283
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,320
Speaker 1: area that's it's almost desert like I think to a

284
00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:14,480
Speaker 1: certain degree, tightly packed sandy clay kind of composition.

285
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:14,520
Speaker 2: Of the soil.

286
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,240
Speaker 1: And here's the important thing that the police when they

287
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,200
Speaker 1: first let this news out, they stated that this was

288
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:27,200
Speaker 1: in fact a shallow Now that's a very specific identifier, Dave,

289
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,680
Speaker 1: very specific. They're not saying a well doug grave. They're

290
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,800
Speaker 1: not saying that it was deep. They're saying shallow, and

291
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,720
Speaker 1: shallow implies a couple of things to me.

292
00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:38,680
Speaker 2: In a hurry.

293
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:43,120
Speaker 1: Yes, specifically, you're rushed. I mean, just think about anything

294
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:47,400
Speaker 1: you do in life where you're unprepared. Okay, you're unprepared,

295
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,520
Speaker 1: and really dig deep when you're unprepared, and it doesn't

296
00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,760
Speaker 1: matter what your pursuit is. So there is for me,

297
00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,480
Speaker 1: there's two things that come into play. You're in a rush,

298
00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,760
Speaker 1: and you might not have the tools that you would

299
00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,000
Speaker 1: need at hand in order to defeat this obstacle, which

300
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,520
Speaker 1: is in fact the ground, the earth, in order to

301
00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:13,200
Speaker 1: facilitate a deep grave. Maybe you're up against toime, whoever

302
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,600
Speaker 1: did this, whoever dug this grave, because I can assure you, Dave,

303
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,520
Speaker 1: they're calling it a grave. And how do we define

304
00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,320
Speaker 1: a grave. Well, they're going to have the Colorado Bureau

305
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,800
Speaker 1: of Investigation that's out there working this thing. I would

306
00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,760
Speaker 1: imagine that they're going to have people out there that

307
00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,520
Speaker 1: have a background at I don't know if it's at

308
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,880
Speaker 1: a doctoral level, but they'll have people that are out

309
00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,640
Speaker 1: there on site, have a background in clandestine graves and

310
00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,280
Speaker 1: the processing of clandestine graves. They might even have a

311
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:44,000
Speaker 1: forensic anthropologist out there. And when we define a grave,

312
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:46,879
Speaker 1: we begin to think about it from the perspective of

313
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,719
Speaker 1: a grave is outlined in the earth, so it actually

314
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,520
Speaker 1: has margins to it. Sometimes those margins can be very sharp.

315
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:59,440
Speaker 1: Sometimes those the dimensions of it can be very robust. However,

316
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,920
Speaker 1: when you think about a shallow grave, you think, well,

317
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,560
Speaker 1: how do we accomplish this? What tools would we need?

318
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,600
Speaker 1: And if you're talking about hand tools, well, just on

319
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:11,800
Speaker 1: the surface of it, I think that in order to

320
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,280
Speaker 1: really have one in place, you're going to need probably

321
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,880
Speaker 1: a shovel and maybe a pick axe out in this environment.

322
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,879
Speaker 1: And what comes along with that, Well, when you begin

323
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,880
Speaker 1: to create this hole in the earth that has never

324
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,800
Speaker 1: been there before, it's going to require the individual a

325
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,240
Speaker 1: lot of heavy lifting relative to how much work goes

326
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,679
Speaker 1: into this, and you're going to have tools strikes that

327
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:37,399
Speaker 1: are on the earth. As a matter of fact, if

328
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,680
Speaker 1: there's like a rock what we refer to is like

329
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,960
Speaker 1: a deciduous rock that's kind of sitting free in the earth,

330
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,080
Speaker 1: and you come down on that rock with either a shovel.

331
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,320
Speaker 1: I mean, we've all been in our backyard and you've

332
00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:50,920
Speaker 1: been digging a hole and you strike something underneath the earth,

333
00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,760
Speaker 1: and that rock is left behind. Guess what it leaves behind.

334
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,120
Speaker 1: On the surface of that rock, it leads beyond tool mark,

335
00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,280
Speaker 1: And if they went out there and during their excavation

336
00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,040
Speaker 1: of this area recovered any rocks, for instance, that have

337
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:07,199
Speaker 1: tool strikes on them, trust me, buddy, they've recovered these things.

338
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,280
Speaker 1: The trick is, are you going to be able to

339
00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,920
Speaker 1: marry up a tool, whether it's a pickaxe or shovel

340
00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,480
Speaker 1: that might match up to any kind of tool mark

341
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,960
Speaker 1: that's on a rock perhaps, So that's going to be

342
00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,399
Speaker 1: interesting to see as time goes forward.

343
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,520
Speaker 2: At the time they found Suzanne Morphew in the shallow grave,

344
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:29,760
Speaker 2: investigators were not looking for Suzanne Morphew. They were investigating

345
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:34,480
Speaker 2: something else. And based on the shallow grave, and I'm

346
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,960
Speaker 2: in my head seeing that there had to have been

347
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,840
Speaker 2: a hump in the ground when they were out there looking.

348
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,879
Speaker 2: Shallow grave means that they did not have room to

349
00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 2: actually really conceal the body, and investigators looking for something

350
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:53,000
Speaker 2: else see disturbed area over here, and I'm thinking it

351
00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,119
Speaker 2: might be kind of like when you're a kid and

352
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,320
Speaker 2: you try to bury something in the backyard and you

353
00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:59,240
Speaker 2: know there is a hump. It's like you can't dig

354
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,720
Speaker 2: it deep enough, which I'm guessing that's what had to

355
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,520
Speaker 2: have happened here. But a grave that is like that, Joe,

356
00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:10,840
Speaker 2: wouldn't body still be exposed to all of the elements

357
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,960
Speaker 2: of a body being left almost on top of the surface.

358
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I got to tell you, I disagree

359
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,239
Speaker 1: with the idea of there being a hump. And this

360
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,440
Speaker 1: is an important part to this because when you think

361
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,520
Speaker 1: about digging a grave, most people think when you fill

362
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,080
Speaker 1: this thing in with the body, you have a mound

363
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,359
Speaker 1: that has created a hump. But here's what happens. You

364
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,040
Speaker 1: might come across earth that has never had a tool

365
00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:39,320
Speaker 1: put to it in thousands of years. Perhaps it's just

366
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:44,080
Speaker 1: it's pristine. Now you're creating this defect in the earth,

367
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,920
Speaker 1: and guess what happens. You can never compact that soil

368
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 1: back to the original form that it was in. You

369
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,480
Speaker 1: place a body into this area, and yeah, for a while,

370
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,520
Speaker 1: it will have this kind of raised appearance to it.

371
00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,480
Speaker 1: But let me tell you what happens. Then then the

372
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:02,800
Speaker 1: area begins to cave in. One of the things they're

373
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,520
Speaker 1: going to notice is that it is not a kind

374
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,400
Speaker 1: of a humped area or a mounded area. It's a

375
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 1: sunken area day and all of the vegetation around it.

376
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 1: Perhaps I don't know, we're talking about a three year cycle.

377
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,000
Speaker 1: Now because Suzanne's been missing for three years. What happens

378
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,880
Speaker 1: is the vegetation actually changes around that area. It's demarcated,

379
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,439
Speaker 1: like if there were like little scrub plants that are

380
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,639
Speaker 1: an indigenous flora that are in there, their life within

381
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:35,160
Speaker 1: that area, they're possessive relative to the plants is pulled out,

382
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 1: you've disturbed that area. It's disturbed soil, and it's disturbed

383
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 1: plant life. So it's going to look different than say,

384
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,440
Speaker 1: for instance, something that has been remained untouched for thousands

385
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,400
Speaker 1: of years. It will stand out. But here's the thing, day,

386
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 1: there's something more sinister about this because they wouldn't have

387
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 1: seen a hump, they wouldn't have seen a mound. What

388
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 1: they would have seen is a depressed whole and in

389
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 1: no longer contained the intact remains of Susan Morphear. If

390
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 1: people at home will just envision in your mind, just

391
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 1: for a second, envision an old fashioned wagon wheel. Okay,

392
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 1: where you've got that central hub that's the shallow grave.

393
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 1: The hub is the shallow grave, and all the little

394
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 1: spokes that come off of the old wagon wheel. That's

395
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 1: going to be body dispersement or skeletal dispersement. So from

396
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 1: that point in time where the body was buried, the

397
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 1: body began to decay. And as it began to decay,

398
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 1: even early on, the animal life in that particular area

399
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,639
Speaker 1: that is indigenous to that area, scavengers in particular, it

400
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 1: will be in the wind, they will pick it up

401
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 1: almost instantaneously. The spectrum that the wildlife work on relative

402
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 1: to their sense of smell is beyond anything that we

403
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 1: can actually imagine. They live and die by the smell

404
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 1: within their environment, and so they would have picked up

405
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 1: on this very quickly if there was any effort, and

406
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 1: I can assume that there probably was, since we have

407
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 1: a grave, there would have been an effort to bury

408
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 1: or cover up. That's not going to defeat the sense

409
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,159
Speaker 1: of smell that inhabits this area on the part of

410
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 1: these indigenous animals.

411
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,399
Speaker 2: Are you going to be able to tell whether or

412
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:41,160
Speaker 2: not the body was dismembered before going in? I mean,

413
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 2: is that a possibility that they would pick up the

414
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 2: parts and run with them, as opposed to the body

415
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 2: naturally being torn apart by wild animals.

416
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it comes back to the skill set that

417
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: I've talked about many times on our show unfortunately, and

418
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 1: that is tool marks. If there was a dismemberment that

419
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 1: had taken place, you would see evidence of that on

420
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: the bones. Now, one of the things that you will

421
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 1: see on the bones, on skeletal remains, and you see

422
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,360
Speaker 1: in all cases, I don't know about this case in particular,

423
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 1: because they have not released everything yet, you would see

424
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: carnivore activity. We can see things like any type of

425
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 1: animal if you're talking about raccoons, possums, any kind of

426
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 1: you kind of ground dwelling animals that burrow, that sort

427
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 1: of thing that are indigenous to that area. They leave

428
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 1: behind specific markings on the surface of bone. You can

429
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: look at it and get an idea what species was

430
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: feasting essentially on skeletal remains because there's actually a little

431
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 1: scrape and tooth marks on there. And the fact that

432
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: her body has been allegedly dispersed over a seventy five

433
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: yard radius tells me also that they have not recovered everything.

434
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: There's two hundred and six bones in human body, and

435
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: just think of it this way. The smaller the bone,

436
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 1: the higher the probability is you won't recover it. And

437
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 1: I know the big thing that everybody wants to know

438
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 1: about is a hyoid bone in susan morphuse case. Those

439
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: bones are so fine and there's a term that we

440
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: use called grassisle, which means delicate, and it doesn't matter

441
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: if it's male or female. With the hyoid bone, it

442
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 1: is so very fine, and it's that indicator that you

443
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 1: look forward see if there has been a strangulation event

444
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: where it's fractured. It would be one of at the

445
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 1: top of the list to kind of vanish disappear, because

446
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: it's something that a small animal can make off with,

447
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: and they would take this away. If they found a

448
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: hyoid out there, I would be genuinely surprised that they

449
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: had the small bones of the hands and of the feet.

450
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 1: Those are going to be items that will be again

451
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: dispersed all over the place. Animals will literally take remain

452
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 1: skeletal remains to their burrows and take them underground, and

453
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 1: certain things are just never recovered. And each little bit

454
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: of human bone tells a story. And it's kind of

455
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 1: an obvious thing to say, but the more of the

456
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: constituted body that you can have, you're going to increase

457
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: the likelihood that you're going to get some ideas to

458
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: what happened. To this individual and to any individual, not

459
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: just the remains of Susan more few.

460
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 2: So what about birds coming into play, because I see

461
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 2: them in my neighborhood flying around with pieces of food.

462
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 2: They're flying around.

463
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: We've got scavenger animals that are out there. You think

464
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 1: about crows in particular, and not to mention the big

465
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: scavenger animals like buzzards and those sorts of things that

466
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: are out there. Here's a kind of an interesting little

467
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 1: side that I've actually born witness to. I worked the

468
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: case many years ago, and this has been proven out

469
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 1: in the literature as well. I worked the case many

470
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: years ago where we had had a clandestine grave and

471
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: most of the hair was gone, and Dave, there were

472
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 1: anthropologists that checked the bird nest and we had two

473
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 1: or three bird nests in that area where we had

474
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: young officers that were willing to climb up a tree,

475
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 1: and two out of the three bird nests that they

476
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,439
Speaker 1: found had human hair in the bird nest that they

477
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 1: had nested with. And so animals nature makes use of

478
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: what is at hand. And just think you're a bird

479
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: in the springtime, you're trying to build a nest to

480
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 1: welcome hatchlings. And that sort of thing. This is prime,

481
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: it's one of the things that would be taken back.

482
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: I was truly amazed that from the moment in time

483
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 1: that we knew that they had a human remain that

484
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: was out there. And granted, I know I'm going to

485
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 1: get this number wrong. I won't give the specific number,

486
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: but I will say it was more than twenty miles

487
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 1: away from her home, the body of Susanne Morphew. It

488
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 1: was a great distance away from her home. They have

489
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: this body in this isolated area, You think about, what

490
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: are the odds that they're going to find her in

491
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: the first place, And then they did find her, And

492
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 1: from the moment that they did find her, until we

493
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: had a positive identifications really quick, really quick, And what

494
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 1: can we kind of surmise from that, Well, it first

495
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: came out that Suzanne's remains have been identified, I think

496
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 1: with dental identification. That tells us something very significant there, Dave,

497
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 1: and then it was confirmed. I think further confirmatory evidence

498
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: was the fact that they found port for the application

499
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 1: of cancer drugs.

500
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 2: Let me ask you you forty five miles. I looked

501
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 2: it up, just forty five miles between her home and

502
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 2: where her remains were found. But does the fact they

503
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 2: identified her body by the byer teeth that does not

504
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 2: indicate a full skull, but at least indicates partial right

505
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 2: at least.

506
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does. And that's significant because when we think

507
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: of our skull, I think most people think of the

508
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: totality of our skull relative to the jaw. And the

509
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: cranium teeth that you have in your lower jaw are

510
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: called mangelary teeth because that's de mandible, and then the

511
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: upper that you have those are called maxillary teeth. So

512
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: you have the maxillary teeth up top and then the

513
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: mangulary teeth down below. Here's the thing about it is

514
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: that the jaw becomes disarticulated pretty quickly in decomposition. That

515
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: is also in concert with scavenger activity. The fact that

516
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: they were able to get her body identified from dental

517
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: is quite fascinating to me. So that tells me that

518
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: they have at least one component of the skull. I

519
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: don't know if they have both the mangelary teeth as

520
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: well as the maxillary teeth, but they had enough dental

521
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: evidence there to turn this around pretty quickly. And if

522
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: you and this is horrible, I know but when you

523
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: look at this woman, you see that beautiful smile. She

524
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: smiles in almost every one of her images. That she

525
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: had this beautiful set of teeth. You know that she's

526
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: had dental care. And that's significant because people will say things, well,

527
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: why don't you just use DNA to get a body identified? Well,

528
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: why don't you just use dentistry to get Okay, we will,

529
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: but here's the problem. First off, you have to have

530
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: an idea of who the person might be, and then

531
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: if that's the case, you have to have something in

532
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: the anti mortem state, which is before death, to compare

533
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: it to with what you have in the post mortem state. Obviously,

534
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: they've got dental records and the way bodies are identified

535
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: through dental examination. First off, there's actually a dental chart

536
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 1: that is created for the dead. Teeth that are absent

537
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: are just as significant as teeth that are present. The

538
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: trick is you have to determine where those teeth absent

539
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: in life. Let's say you've got I don't know, your

540
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: third molar, You've got your wisdom teeth that have been removed,

541
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: and I know there's so many people in the audience

542
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: that have had their wisdom teeth removed. Well, you are

543
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: different if you've had your wisdom teeth removed as opposed

544
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: to the rest of the population that still has this.

545
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: So check that box. Then you think about cavities, Well,

546
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: how many restorations have they have? What doctor did these

547
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,239
Speaker 1: types of restorations? Did they use a particular type of

548
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: methodology or a particular technique that is unique to that doctor.

549
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 1: You look at the planes of the teeth, how are

550
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: they rotated, how are they pitched? And that's determined on

551
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: X ray any kind of what's referred to as carryous dentation.

552
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 1: Maybe you've got a cavity that's never been repaired, or

553
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: maybe you've got capped teeth. Many people have cap teeth. Now,

554
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: so all of these things come into play that are

555
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: very unique to a particular individual. When you begin to

556
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: look at the teeth and try to determine who they are,

557
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: that significant and then you couple that day it's a

558
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: confirmatory thing when you think about we know that Suzanne

559
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: Morphew fought cancer, and so she's even got a cancer

560
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: port that is in dwelling. Well, this thing is made

561
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: out of plastic and guess what, buddy, plastic takes a

562
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: long time to degrade and decompose.

563
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 2: So on top of all of what you just named, Joe,

564
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 2: as ways to identify is there going to be enough

565
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 2: left of Suzanne Morphew's remains to determine a cause of death.

566
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: In a perfect world, what we would want would be

567
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: soft tissue. And I can tell you I'd be very

568
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: surprised if there was any soft tissue left after three

569
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: years and such an austere environment in which she was found,

570
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: Because you know, we look for various types of trauma

571
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: on the surface focal areas of hemorrhage. We look for

572
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: injuries that have occurred like cuts or maybe puncture wounds

573
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: or gunshot wounds. Absent soft tissue, you really have to

574
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: be heavily depended upon bone at that point, Tom, in

575
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: a case like this, well what are you looking for? Well?

576
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: Are there any cracked ribs? And if those ribs are cracked,

577
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: did it happen in life in the anti mortem state?

578
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: Is this a pre existing injury that had healed or

579
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: was it in the peri mortem state, which is that

580
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: area between life and death where life is leaving you.

581
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: Can you recover all of the ribs? Did you recover

582
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: the sternum which is breastbone. Is there a hole in sternum?

583
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: And I think what everybody's really curious about was there

584
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: damage to the skull. Remember, we've got some element of

585
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: the skull, they've got a dental id Dave. I don't

586
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: think they did this based on a singular tooth that

587
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: they found out there. So with the skull with skeletal remains,

588
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: that's going to be your biggest tell if you have

589
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: one that's intact. So what are you looking for? Did

590
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: depress skull fracture? You're looking for perhaps evidence of a

591
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: gunshot one, But beyond that, it's really going to be

592
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: difficult to come up with a definitive cause of death

593
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: unless you have something that's really presenting on the skeletal remains,

594
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: because if you're thinking about, say, for instance, a strangulation,

595
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: how are you going to make that determination? Well, we've

596
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: already talked about the hyoid bone. If they found it,

597
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: which I hope they did, was it intact? Is there

598
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: evidence that it fractured? Not every hyoid bone fractures with asphyxiation.

599
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: There's no soft tissue to see the hemorrh Because we're

600
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: so far down the tracks, I'd be very shocked if

601
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: any soft tissue existed, though to make that determination.

602
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 2: Is there any possibility that the person who did this,

603
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 2: the person who murdered Suzanne, where if you actually has

604
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: had her body someplace else for the last couple of

605
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 2: years and only in the last six months decided to

606
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 2: take the body out and bury it in a shallow grave.

607
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 1: That is a fantastic question, and it's something that I

608
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: thought about before we decided to lay down this track.

609
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: I suppose that it would be within the realm of possibility, However,

610
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: highly unlikely. It seems to me that if this is

611
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 1: the way I would look at it as an investigator.

612
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,720
Speaker 1: If you've had a body that you have been holding

613
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: back for a protracted period of time, doesn't it seem

614
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: logical that if you finally decided to take the remain

615
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: and bury it after all this period of time, that

616
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 1: you would first off, show it prepared tool wise to

617
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: take that body to the spot that you've identified, and

618
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: I mean really prep the grave, get down into that soil,

619
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: really dig it out, make it deep, make it so

620
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: that it is not shallow, and really hide that body

621
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: away at a sufficient depth to where it's not going

622
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: to be discovered. And I don't see that necessarily happening.

623
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: This implies, and we go back to our earlier point.

624
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 1: This implies to me that this was done, perhaps with speed,

625
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 1: But I do know this. As the days begin to unfold,

626
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: we will anxiously be waiting to see what further information

627
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:51,280
Speaker 1: Susanne morphuse remains can offer up. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan,

628
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:53,800
Speaker 1: and this is body bags