WEBVTT - #067 Jason Flom with Luis Vargas 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:03.400 I've never been in trouble in my life. 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:05.040 I didn't even have a parking ticket, you know what 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:05.360 I mean. 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:08.920 I was brought up with cops are the good guys. 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:11.640 I didn't know what was going to happen, but I 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.760 do know that everything was stacked against me. 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:17.320 Everything like everything. 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:22.360 This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.479 know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.240 with this. How is this possible? 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.600 I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.680 that every human being should do the right thing. And 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:35.559 that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:38.000 corerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:40.760 me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:42.840 fact that I break my way out of my wife's death. 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:47.479 I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.120 prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:51.839 Our system. 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:53.479 Since I've been out ten years, it has come a 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:55.480 little ways, but it's still broken. 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.480 I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me. 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:20.000 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today, 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:26.320 I have two extraordinary people as my guests. Justin Brooks, 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:28.959 who many of you will recognize because he's a return 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:33.680 guest on the podcast. Justin is the director of the 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:38.759 California Innocence Project and a personal hero of mine. So Justin, welcome. 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:41.200 Back, Thank you so much, Susan. 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:46.200 And with him is our featured guest, who is an 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:51.000 extraordinary person with an insane story to tell that I 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:54.040 think we can all learn a lot from and I'm 0:01:54.120 --> 0:02:00.480 really excited to hear the whole thing as much as 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:03.080 we can get in cause i know it's impossible to 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:09.360 share all your saga on this one hour format. But 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:12.079 Luis Vargas, I'm really happy to have you here. I mean, 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:13.919 as I always say, I'm happy you're here, but i'm 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:15.600 sorry you're here, but welcome to the show. 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:18.800 Well, thank you very much. I am also very happy 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:21.880 to do this, and I'm an enthusiast about what's to 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:25.200 be the result of these type of podcasts. It's a 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:25.920 blessing to me. 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:29.080 Well, I'm glad you say that, because I think in 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:32.240 sharing your story, the best we can hope for is 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:36.120 that people will get a better understanding of just how 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:40.239 flawed our justice system is, and how these mistakes can 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:45.800 really ruin so many people's lives. And by that I 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:48.880 mean not just yours, but all of the victims that 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:54.520 were tragically hurt as a result of the fact that 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:57.080 they put the wrong guy behind bars when there was 0:02:57.120 --> 0:03:00.000 a serial rapist on the loose who was out there 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:05.200 are committing heinous acts against innocent women in California. So 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:09.720 let's let's get right into it. Luis, Where where did 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:12.880 you grow up? What was your childhood? Like bring us 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:15.800 back memory, you know, like in the movies when it 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:18.160 gets all foggy and you go back to back to 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:20.480 the day. How where were you born and where'd you 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:20.840 grow up? 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:27.480 I was born in Mexico, I juan A, New Mexico. However, 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:30.480 I migrated to California when I was about ten years old. 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:33.520 I grew up in south central Los Angels, you know, 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:38.480 started going to school, elementary, junior, high, high school, you know, 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:41.840 and uh, you know that's where I basically grew up at. 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:46.360 And was your childhood happy childhood? I mean, you know, 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:48.720 I know I've had a lot of challenges being an immigrant. 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:51.720 Difficulty you weren't in the in the you know, probably 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:54.520 in those times. Growing up in the nineties in south 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:57.720 central I'm sure it was, you know, a dangerous environment. 0:03:57.800 --> 0:03:59.680 But can you tell us a little more about that. 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:03.480 Well dangerous it was. I mean I grew up in 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:06.720 a single parent household, you know, and unfortunately my mother 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.080 had to work two jobs to be able to to 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:13.240 put food on our tables and keep us clothes, you know, 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:15.440 and do all that, you know, try to provide for us. 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:17.760 And as we grew up, it was pretty rough. 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:18.159 It was. 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:20.360 It was South central Los Angeles. I mean, it's well 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:24.280 known for its crime and everything that happens around it. 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:29.320 I started seeking, you know, outside of the home, the 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:31.159 things that I wasn't able to get inside the home 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:34.000 because of the fact that mother was working through jobs, 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:35.760 not because she didn't want to give it to me, 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:38.279 but because she was working to jobs. She halreadly ever 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:41.200 came home. And when she came home, she came home 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:43.880 so exhausted that she thought, I mean, she needed to 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:47.320 get some rest in the meantime. You know, I I 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:50.760 along with a sister, older sister and a younger brother. 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:53.760 You know, we grew up basically not on our own, 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:56.799 but you know, figuring things out for the most part, 0:04:57.520 --> 0:04:59.520 you know, on our own, you know. And the things 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.039 that I was figuring out, you know, I was doing 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:06.919 them by searching places where I didn't really need to be, 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:11.000 you know, got around, got around the neighborhood, started to 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:14.840 know a few kids, you know, groupees, and and you know, 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:19.080 before you know it, I was growing up pretty fast. 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:21.440 Life on a highway, as they say, you know, and 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:23.400 it was it was pretty dramatic. 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:26.280 And you were homeless for a period of time, is 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:26.760 that right? 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:29.720 I was? I was? I was. 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:32.320 I was homeless for a period of time due to 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:35.200 the fact that I had left home for a while. 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:38.320 And when I left home, I was down in the 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:41.560 San Diego area, so I was on my own. I 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:43.359 was on my own. I was figuring things out on 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:45.960 my own. I think about it. I mean, a teenager 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:48.920 not really knowing, you know what latch is about, barely 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:51.880 figuring life out, trying to make sense of things, you know, 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:55.600 and just making doing the best he could have survived. 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:57.560 You know, that was me. 0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:59.719 And it was at that time that you got a 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:04.360 t too that turned out to play a very role 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:06.960 that you could never have predicted, that really had a 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:11.040 devastating impact on your life. Down the road. But we'll 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:15.080 get into that further as we get along in the story. 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:20.159 So let's let's fast forward to nineteen ninety eight. This 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:23.600 was a time when there was a lot of crime, 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:28.200 much worse than it is now in America. And at 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:31.040 the time there was a serial rapist on the loose 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:36.839 in California called the tear drop Rapist, And Justin, can 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:40.159 you talk a little bit about that and what you know, 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:46.600 what what was the whole circumstance surrounding that, you know 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:47.359 that that time? 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:52.880 Sure, so there was a serial rapist in Los Angeles. 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:58.320 All of the women were Latin women Latina. They were 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:02.360 all waiting at Buscot early in the morning, and it 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:06.000 all occurred within a one and a half mile radius 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:09.520 in a certain area of Los Angeles. The rapists would 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:14.119 approach them, ask for directions, and it was a Latino man. 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:19.800 And then all these rapes occurred. The witnesses the one 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:23.800 defining feature, so just a tattoo was very popular during 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:26.120 this era, those of us works of the criminal justice system. 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:29.880 It's seen this tattoo where it's one or two tear drops, 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:34.040 and all of the victims described their attacker that way, 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.840 that it was a Latino man, that he approached them 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.000 first thing in the morning at the bus stop, and 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:41.520 that they with these attacks, and that this tattoo was 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:44.800 on the attacker. And so it was very clear based 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:48.240 on this very specific MO that there was one guy 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:53.040 who was doing all these rapes. Luis ends up getting 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:57.160 arrested and charged with three of these rapes, which when 0:07:57.200 --> 0:07:59.400 we went back in and started investigating the case, was 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:03.360 starting with, Okay, why is this one guy charged with 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:06.520 three of these attacks? And by the time we reviewed 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:10.400 the case, there had been thirty five documented attacks with 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:11.560 this exact same m O. 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:15.480 How many of those had occurred after his arrest. 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:19.960 So that's the crazy part of the story. We went 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:23.920 in and we were able to use DNA to match 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:27.840 up one of the rapes that Luise got accused of 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:32.840 with rapes that had occurred while he was incarcerated, and 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:37.200 in fact, one of these rapes occurred while Luis was 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:42.280 on trial and sitting in jail. And just imagine that 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:46.360 if if you know your client's on trial for's life 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:50.920 for this crime and somebody else is committing the same 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:54.640 crime in the same city, in the same area, with 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:58.040 the exact same MO and a difficct attorney is getting 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:00.640 up and telling the jury, you know, these three rapes 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:02.920 all have the same amount, they're clearly done by the 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:05.400 same guy. Well it was the same guy, and that 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:08.760 same guy was still committing those crimes while Luise was 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:10.680 on trial and after he went to prison. 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:12.959 And do we know for certain that the DA had 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:14.320 that information at that time. 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:19.160 So what we do know is that the police department 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.360 had investigated it so much to the point of that 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:25.520 they had what was called a rape book, and they 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:29.800 had linked all these crimes together. And they didn't widely 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:33.160 publicize this. I don't you know, for whatever reasons they had, 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:36.720 whether they didn't want to make people scared or create 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:39.320 some kind of eysteria. But we do know that they 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:42.120 were in possession of this information, that they had linked 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:44.959 this information, and yet that information was not turned over 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:48.520 to the defense. And as you know, it's a clear 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:52.960 Brady violation that the government must turn over all potentially 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:58.800 exculpatory evidence to the defense. And this was clearly exculpatory, right. 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:00.320 I mean, this is as black and white as it 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:04.120 can be. And meanwhile, Luis, you had alibis for at 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:07.320 least one or more of these crimes that you were 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:08.439 charged with. Is that right? 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:11.719 Yes, I did. I had alabis. 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:13.439 I mean I used to work at I used to 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:16.640 be a manager for a Manhattan bagel store right there 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:19.440 in North Hollywood, and I used to drive my baker 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:21.680 even to work, sometimes at four o'clock in the morning. 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:27.120 So one of the incidents where we did present an 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:31.240 alabai court was not admitted because the manager at that 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:34.160 time that was working along my side, he had written 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:37.120 it down because the time clock machine had broken. I mean, 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:39.960 imagine that the iron is right on the one of 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:43.000 the one times that I really needed to have solid alabi. 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:45.920 You know, the time clock happens to be broken, so 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:48.200 he has to go ahead and write it down, jotted 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:50.560 down with his his with a pen and hands. So 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:52.760 you know, that's why it wasn't at missed. It wasn't 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:57.800 admissible in court. But I did have several alibis, and unfortunately, 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:03.439 you know, none of them seemed to be solid enough 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:05.800 to be able to hold up, you know, so they 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:09.120 still went ahead and convicted me on the just basically 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:10.160 on hearsay. 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:14.560 You know, well on as Jason you've talked about many 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.520 times on this, So you're convicted based on the bad 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:22.480 identifications made by these very frightened victims of this horrible crime. 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:26.680 And these identifications were not you know, from my understanding 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:32.199 and reading about the case, these identifications were wavering. The 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:38.520 victims were not sure. At various times, they were you know, 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:43.600 back and forth, and so even we know for sure, 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:45.360 and people who listened to the show have probably heard 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:49.719 the Jennifer Thompson Ronald Cotton episode, you know, where as 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:53.560 she was described as the perfect witness, a woman who 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:57.040 was you know, twenty two year old college students sober 0:11:57.200 --> 0:11:59.640 home alone and spent twenty five minutes doing nothing but 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:05.480 sudying her attacker every detail because she was absolutely determined 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:08.959 that she was going to memorize everything about his appearance 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:13.559 and uh and she had time to do it, and 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:18.560 she identified him with absolute certainty in a lineup in 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:22.240 a muckshot book and a trial, and of course, eleven 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:25.920 years later, tragically found out that she had been wrong, 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:30.880 you know. And she's become a tremendous advocate as as 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:39.000 he for eyewitness identification procedure improvements and you know, refinements 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:41.240 and and and you know, there's just there's so many 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:43.559 things that we need to do, and there's many things 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:45.720 that we can do to improve that process. But in 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:49.480 your case, Luis that it wasn't even that it wasn't 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:53.840 even like it was a strong identification. It was you know, 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:56.800 they were they were on the fence, and so it 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:01.760 seemed so insane you had you had an alibi. The 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.640 time clock thing is blowing my mind. And it's interesting 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:06.320 too because I'm sure some people that are listening in 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:09.640 La you know, maybe may may have been to your 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:11.480 bagel store at the time. They may even know you so, 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:13.520 but go ahead. 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:20.440 Yeah it look it's interesting because these these descriptions that 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.400 the young lady gave, you know, which I do feel 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:26.760 very sorry that it happened to them. You know, I 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:32.880 think they were ultimately, uh not only influenced by all 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:37.200 the factors that were surrounding them, the fear, the stress, 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:40.679 the weapons, the weapon that was used, the chaos, and 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:44.000 not to mention the fact that when they were interviewed 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:47.320 at the time that they were interviewed. I mean, I'm 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:52.360 positive that they were influenced by the people that interviewed them, 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:56.000 you know, I mean, how could you go from being 0:13:56.040 --> 0:14:00.960 seventy percent sure okay during a photo expect photo lineup. 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.280 How could you go from being no, no, no, wait 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.880 a minute, eighty five percent sure, Okay, eighty five percent 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:10.280 sure that I'm within the six pact that you were shown, 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:13.559 then from eighty five you go down. Talking about one 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:16.880 of the young ladies that identified me during a photo lineup, 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:20.000 first she said she was eighty five percent sure, then 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:24.240 she came back and said seventy percent sure. Then ultimately 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:30.360 during the trial, when uh, the DA went and asked 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:33.720 for her identification, all of a sudden, lo and behold, DejaVu, 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:36.000 you know one hundred percent sure that it was me 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:38.160 the one, the one that attacked her. You know that 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:42.000 is amazing to me, the way things happened like that. 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:43.880 I mean, everything was playing out in front of me 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:46.160 as if there was some type of motion picture. I 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:50.120 couldn't understand it. On my mind. Was was baffled because 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:52.200 of the things that were going on. I was so 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:55.000 sure and so confident that I was going to win 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:56.960 this trial because of the fact that I had nothing 0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:59.040 to do with it. I had nothing to do with it. 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:00.800 I mean I was looking at the victims and the 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:03.200 witnesses straight in the eyes because I wanted them so 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:06.480 badly to identify me, not as the attacker, of course, 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.680 but as a person that did not have it. 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:10.400 No. 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:14.400 Unfortunately, I was dealt with a blow. I was deal 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:18.000 with what at that time seeing a deadly blow because 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:20.240 I was I was sentenced to spend the rest of my 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:21.000 life in prison. 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:35.240 Fifty five years to life was a sentence. And justin 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:42.000 this case has you know, so many really terribly common 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:48.440 earmarks of wrongful convictions, right, you have mistaken with its identification. 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:52.360 You have exculpatory evidence that was withhold clear Brady violations 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:54.960 in other words, in legal terms. And you also had 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:58.000 an incompetent defense attorney who didn't call witnesses to the 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:03.080 stand that could have and very well might have, you know, 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:05.040 influenced the jury in a way where they would have 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:08.320 gotten it right. Which is which is always like that, 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:11.280 That's all that always blows my mind, Like, you know, 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:15.840 I don't understand how someone can pass the bar and 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:17.800 then end up as a lawyer. You have to have 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:20.600 a you know, a certain amount of intelligence. Not easy 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:22.920 to pass the bar, right you gotta, and and then 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:25.080 you end up in a court room and you don't 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:28.800 do the most basic thing that anyone who watches TV knows. 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:32.520 Call the witnesses who can say he was at a 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:36.520 different place, He couldn't have done this. He was making bagels, 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:40.960 fucking bagels. I mean, Jesus Christ, he was shmearing cream 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:42.160 cheese on the damn thing. 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:42.800 You know. 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:46.240 He was not raping this woman. I mean, oh my god. So, 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:49.360 I mean, so justin, can you explain how does that 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:51.360 even happen? Why is that a thing? 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:56.760 I mean, well, first of all, the ID problem is 0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:59.120 really the biggest problem here. And I'll tell you something 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:02.680 even more shocking. We are two decades later and Los 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:06.560 Angeles is still using these procedures. Los Angeles has not 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:10.800 changed to the best practices for eyewitness identification. And we've 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:14.320 changed in San Diego, we've changed in Northern California, but 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.240 the biggest county in the United States is still doing this. 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:20.840 And what are these best practices? What are those best practices? 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:25.200 So you should never use six packs. So the problems 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:28.560 with six packs photo rays are well documented. And every 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:32.640 study has shown that when you show a victim six photos, 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:35.760 what their brain does is make a comparative analysis of 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:38.800 those six and they pick out the person who most 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:42.760 looks like the suspect. Now, it does. They may not 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:45.400 look like the suspect very much at all, but out 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:47.800 of those six, it's the person who most looks like it. 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:52.000 And then they start doing these statistical analysis of you know, 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:56.040 what's their percentage of clarity, and it's all completely meaningless. 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:58.560 You know, there's there's no way to assess in your 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:01.160 life what you're eighty percent or what you're sixty percent 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:03.639 sure of, what you're one hundred percent sure of, because 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:08.120 memory is so easily contaminated and there's so many problems 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:11.760 with it. So the best practice is to show single photos, 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:16.320 one at a time. And more importantly, you cannot have 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:19.919 the officers involved in the process who know who the 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:25.320 suspect is, because they always give off tells, and even 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:28.160 when they don't do something stupid like take a good 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:31.000 long look at number three, they do the kind of 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:33.320 things that we hear in this case where the last 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:37.640 talked about how the witness changed, how sure she was. Well, 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:41.080 that can happen as simple as this. You pick number, 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:44.520 you pick letter C, and the officer thinks it's letter C. 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:49.200 So they say things like good job, okay, great, all right, 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:52.480 we got them, and now they're one hundred percent sure 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:55.840 they have the right person. And in rape cases you 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:59.480 get the worst ideas because you have now a victim 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:01.920 who's very frightened. It's gone to a lot of trauma, 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:05.280 who desperately wants this person off the street. So they're 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:08.600 going to go along with that because that is what 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:11.760 their psyche wants to happen. They want to be comforted 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:14.040 by this that they got the right person, that they're 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:16.919 off the streets. So the problem in this country is 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:22.000 we have no true national criminal justice policy. Only in 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:24.760 the federal courts to the very small part of our 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:27.440 criminal justices, and most of it's in the state courts. 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:32.159 No one has control to change national policy, so we 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:35.000 have to fight these battles state by state and then 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:39.120 county by county, because for example, in Los Angeles, it's 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:41.240 up to the District Attorney's office and the chief of 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:45.080 police as to what procedures they use. So this is 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:46.639 going to be a battle that's going to go on 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:49.560 for a long time, Whereas in other countries, like I 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:52.040 just came back from the UK. In the UK, they 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:55.160 have national criminal justice policies that they put in place 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:58.359 throughout the country. But we've divided our country into all 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:01.639 these jurisdictions with all these little pockets of power, and 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:03.280 we have cases like Louise. 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:05.640 Right, And this is an interesting thing too, because this 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:09.280 is not a liberal or a conservative issue, or a 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:12.920 democratic or Republican or this, or that it should be 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:15.200 in this case. Is so why I'm so appreciative that 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:21.600 Louise is here, because this case screams out for all 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:25.000 the people. And we're talking about dozens of people, women 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:29.960 who were brutally attacked in the wake of his wrongful 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:33.840 arrest and conviction because they stopped looking for the real 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.320 guy when they got Luise. Even though these things went 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:39.560 on and on and on. It's like, so it's or 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:41.359 they took a beat. I mean, they must have started 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:44.159 again at some point, but they chose to just not 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:47.479 share that information with Louise and his team because they 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:51.240 already had him. But they knew that this was the 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:53.560 same guy. There was never any question. I mean, you 0:20:53.600 --> 0:21:00.959 can't have a more dynamic example of a serial a predator. 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:04.520 I mean this guy was. I mean, it's unreal. I mean, 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:06.959 especially in a one point six mile radius, and that 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:09.240 would have terrified the neighborhood. I mean, but at the 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:11.359 same time, you know what bugs me about that is 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:14.679 that the authorities should have made this known to everyone, 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:16.520 because what about the how would you like to be 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:18.960 a parent of one of these kids, or a relative 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:21.840 or anything else? And you say, wow, if I had known, 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:24.120 I never would have let her go to the bus 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:26.200 stop by herself until this guy. 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:26.840 Was locked up. 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.960 I mean not a chance. I mean, anyone who's listening 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:34.040 who has a daughter, which I do, it's like you 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:36.680 would do anything you could to protect that child. Maybe 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:38.439 you wouldn't even let them go to school until this 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:41.639 was resolved, But no way would you expose someone to 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:45.000 a risk that was so incredibly high and you know 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:46.680 where it's going to happen. And by the way, they 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:49.800 also should have had patrols out at every bus stop 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:52.640 for that period of time, right, I mean definitely, how 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:54.600 long would it have taken. It's one point six miles. 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:56.560 You would have needed just a quick map, right thing, 0:21:56.600 --> 0:21:58.959 and you could have done it. I mean, you know, 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:01.960 it's not even I don't know. It's baffling to me, 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:05.480 the whole thing. And of course, you know, Luis is 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:07.639 one victim in this case, but there's so many others 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:11.919 and it's really it's hard to wrap yourself around it. 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:14.520 But it's why it's so important that we're doing the 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:18.439 work that we're doing. And again, where could the disagreement be. 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:22.560 Why would we as a society, anyone from any sort 0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:27.400 of political persuasion or any ideology and philosophy, would want 0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:32.119 to make sure that this predator, this animal, who was 0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:34.800 doing these things over and over again, would be off 0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:37.679