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Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life.

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Speaker 2: I didn't even have a parking ticket, you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean.

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Speaker 3: I was brought up with cops are the good guys.

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Speaker 4: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I

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Speaker 4: do know that everything was stacked against me.

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Speaker 5: Everything like everything.

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Speaker 4: This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I

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Speaker 4: know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do

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Speaker 4: with this. How is this possible?

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Speaker 5: I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing

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Speaker 5: that every human being should do the right thing. And

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Speaker 5: that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with

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Speaker 5: corerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get

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Speaker 5: me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the

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Speaker 5: fact that I break my way out of my wife's death.

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Speaker 5: I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I

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Speaker 5: prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.

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Speaker 2: Our system.

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Speaker 1: Since I've been out ten years, it has come a

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Speaker 1: little ways, but it's still broken.

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Speaker 5: I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me.

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Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today,

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Speaker 1: I have two extraordinary people as my guests. Justin Brooks,

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Speaker 1: who many of you will recognize because he's a return

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Speaker 1: guest on the podcast. Justin is the director of the

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Speaker 1: California Innocence Project and a personal hero of mine. So Justin, welcome.

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Speaker 2: Back, Thank you so much, Susan.

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Speaker 1: And with him is our featured guest, who is an

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Speaker 1: extraordinary person with an insane story to tell that I

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Speaker 1: think we can all learn a lot from and I'm

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Speaker 1: really excited to hear the whole thing as much as

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Speaker 1: we can get in cause i know it's impossible to

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Speaker 1: share all your saga on this one hour format. But

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Speaker 1: Luis Vargas, I'm really happy to have you here. I mean,

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Speaker 1: as I always say, I'm happy you're here, but i'm

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Speaker 1: sorry you're here, but welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Well, thank you very much. I am also very happy

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Speaker 3: to do this, and I'm an enthusiast about what's to

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Speaker 3: be the result of these type of podcasts. It's a

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Speaker 3: blessing to me.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you say that, because I think in

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Speaker 1: sharing your story, the best we can hope for is

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Speaker 1: that people will get a better understanding of just how

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Speaker 1: flawed our justice system is, and how these mistakes can

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Speaker 1: really ruin so many people's lives. And by that I

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Speaker 1: mean not just yours, but all of the victims that

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Speaker 1: were tragically hurt as a result of the fact that

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Speaker 1: they put the wrong guy behind bars when there was

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Speaker 1: a serial rapist on the loose who was out there

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Speaker 1: are committing heinous acts against innocent women in California. So

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Speaker 1: let's let's get right into it. Luis, Where where did

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Speaker 1: you grow up? What was your childhood? Like bring us

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Speaker 1: back memory, you know, like in the movies when it

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Speaker 1: gets all foggy and you go back to back to

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Speaker 1: the day. How where were you born and where'd you

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Speaker 1: grow up?

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Speaker 3: I was born in Mexico, I juan A, New Mexico. However,

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Speaker 3: I migrated to California when I was about ten years old.

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Speaker 3: I grew up in south central Los Angels, you know,

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Speaker 3: started going to school, elementary, junior, high, high school, you know,

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Speaker 3: and uh, you know that's where I basically grew up at.

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Speaker 1: And was your childhood happy childhood? I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: I know I've had a lot of challenges being an immigrant.

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Speaker 1: Difficulty you weren't in the in the you know, probably

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Speaker 1: in those times. Growing up in the nineties in south

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Speaker 1: central I'm sure it was, you know, a dangerous environment.

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Speaker 1: But can you tell us a little more about that.

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Speaker 3: Well dangerous it was. I mean I grew up in

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Speaker 3: a single parent household, you know, and unfortunately my mother

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Speaker 3: had to work two jobs to be able to to

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Speaker 3: put food on our tables and keep us clothes, you know,

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Speaker 3: and do all that, you know, try to provide for us.

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Speaker 3: And as we grew up, it was pretty rough.

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Speaker 6: It was.

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Speaker 3: It was South central Los Angeles. I mean, it's well

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Speaker 3: known for its crime and everything that happens around it.

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Speaker 3: I started seeking, you know, outside of the home, the

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Speaker 3: things that I wasn't able to get inside the home

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Speaker 3: because of the fact that mother was working through jobs,

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Speaker 3: not because she didn't want to give it to me,

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Speaker 3: but because she was working to jobs. She halreadly ever

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Speaker 3: came home. And when she came home, she came home

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Speaker 3: so exhausted that she thought, I mean, she needed to

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Speaker 3: get some rest in the meantime. You know, I I

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Speaker 3: along with a sister, older sister and a younger brother.

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Speaker 3: You know, we grew up basically not on our own,

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Speaker 3: but you know, figuring things out for the most part,

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Speaker 3: you know, on our own, you know. And the things

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Speaker 3: that I was figuring out, you know, I was doing

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Speaker 3: them by searching places where I didn't really need to be,

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Speaker 3: you know, got around, got around the neighborhood, started to

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Speaker 3: know a few kids, you know, groupees, and and you know,

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Speaker 3: before you know it, I was growing up pretty fast.

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Speaker 3: Life on a highway, as they say, you know, and

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Speaker 3: it was it was pretty dramatic.

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Speaker 1: And you were homeless for a period of time, is

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Speaker 1: that right?

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Speaker 6: I was? I was? I was.

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Speaker 3: I was homeless for a period of time due to

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Speaker 3: the fact that I had left home for a while.

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Speaker 3: And when I left home, I was down in the

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Speaker 3: San Diego area, so I was on my own. I

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Speaker 3: was on my own. I was figuring things out on

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Speaker 3: my own. I think about it. I mean, a teenager

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Speaker 3: not really knowing, you know what latch is about, barely

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Speaker 3: figuring life out, trying to make sense of things, you know,

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Speaker 3: and just making doing the best he could have survived.

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Speaker 3: You know, that was me.

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Speaker 1: And it was at that time that you got a

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Speaker 1: t too that turned out to play a very role

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Speaker 1: that you could never have predicted, that really had a

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Speaker 1: devastating impact on your life. Down the road. But we'll

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Speaker 1: get into that further as we get along in the story.

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Speaker 1: So let's let's fast forward to nineteen ninety eight. This

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Speaker 1: was a time when there was a lot of crime,

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Speaker 1: much worse than it is now in America. And at

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Speaker 1: the time there was a serial rapist on the loose

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Speaker 1: in California called the tear drop Rapist, And Justin, can

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Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about that and what you know,

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Speaker 1: what what was the whole circumstance surrounding that, you know

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Speaker 1: that that time?

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Speaker 2: Sure, so there was a serial rapist in Los Angeles.

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Speaker 2: All of the women were Latin women Latina. They were

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Speaker 2: all waiting at Buscot early in the morning, and it

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Speaker 2: all occurred within a one and a half mile radius

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Speaker 2: in a certain area of Los Angeles. The rapists would

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Speaker 2: approach them, ask for directions, and it was a Latino man.

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Speaker 2: And then all these rapes occurred. The witnesses the one

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Speaker 2: defining feature, so just a tattoo was very popular during

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Speaker 2: this era, those of us works of the criminal justice system.

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Speaker 2: It's seen this tattoo where it's one or two tear drops,

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Speaker 2: and all of the victims described their attacker that way,

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Speaker 2: that it was a Latino man, that he approached them

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Speaker 2: first thing in the morning at the bus stop, and

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Speaker 2: that they with these attacks, and that this tattoo was

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Speaker 2: on the attacker. And so it was very clear based

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Speaker 2: on this very specific MO that there was one guy

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Speaker 2: who was doing all these rapes. Luis ends up getting

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Speaker 2: arrested and charged with three of these rapes, which when

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Speaker 2: we went back in and started investigating the case, was

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Speaker 2: starting with, Okay, why is this one guy charged with

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Speaker 2: three of these attacks? And by the time we reviewed

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Speaker 2: the case, there had been thirty five documented attacks with

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Speaker 2: this exact same m O.

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Speaker 1: How many of those had occurred after his arrest.

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Speaker 2: So that's the crazy part of the story. We went

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Speaker 2: in and we were able to use DNA to match

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Speaker 2: up one of the rapes that Luise got accused of

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Speaker 2: with rapes that had occurred while he was incarcerated, and

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Speaker 2: in fact, one of these rapes occurred while Luis was

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Speaker 2: on trial and sitting in jail. And just imagine that

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Speaker 2: if if you know your client's on trial for's life

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Speaker 2: for this crime and somebody else is committing the same

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Speaker 2: crime in the same city, in the same area, with

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Speaker 2: the exact same MO and a difficct attorney is getting

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Speaker 2: up and telling the jury, you know, these three rapes

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Speaker 2: all have the same amount, they're clearly done by the

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Speaker 2: same guy. Well it was the same guy, and that

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Speaker 2: same guy was still committing those crimes while Luise was

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Speaker 2: on trial and after he went to prison.

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Speaker 1: And do we know for certain that the DA had

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Speaker 1: that information at that time.

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Speaker 2: So what we do know is that the police department

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Speaker 2: had investigated it so much to the point of that

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Speaker 2: they had what was called a rape book, and they

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Speaker 2: had linked all these crimes together. And they didn't widely

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Speaker 2: publicize this. I don't you know, for whatever reasons they had,

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Speaker 2: whether they didn't want to make people scared or create

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Speaker 2: some kind of eysteria. But we do know that they

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Speaker 2: were in possession of this information, that they had linked

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Speaker 2: this information, and yet that information was not turned over

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Speaker 2: to the defense. And as you know, it's a clear

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Speaker 2: Brady violation that the government must turn over all potentially

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Speaker 2: exculpatory evidence to the defense. And this was clearly exculpatory, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is as black and white as it

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Speaker 1: can be. And meanwhile, Luis, you had alibis for at

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Speaker 1: least one or more of these crimes that you were

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Speaker 1: charged with. Is that right?

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Speaker 6: Yes, I did. I had alabis.

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Speaker 3: I mean I used to work at I used to

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Speaker 3: be a manager for a Manhattan bagel store right there

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Speaker 3: in North Hollywood, and I used to drive my baker

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Speaker 3: even to work, sometimes at four o'clock in the morning.

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Speaker 3: So one of the incidents where we did present an

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Speaker 3: alabai court was not admitted because the manager at that

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Speaker 3: time that was working along my side, he had written

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Speaker 3: it down because the time clock machine had broken. I mean,

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Speaker 3: imagine that the iron is right on the one of

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Speaker 3: the one times that I really needed to have solid alabi.

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Speaker 3: You know, the time clock happens to be broken, so

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Speaker 3: he has to go ahead and write it down, jotted

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Speaker 3: down with his his with a pen and hands. So

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Speaker 3: you know, that's why it wasn't at missed. It wasn't

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Speaker 3: admissible in court. But I did have several alibis, and unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: you know, none of them seemed to be solid enough

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Speaker 3: to be able to hold up, you know, so they

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Speaker 3: still went ahead and convicted me on the just basically

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Speaker 3: on hearsay.

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Speaker 2: You know, well on as Jason you've talked about many

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Speaker 2: times on this, So you're convicted based on the bad

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Speaker 2: identifications made by these very frightened victims of this horrible crime.

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Speaker 1: And these identifications were not you know, from my understanding

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Speaker 1: and reading about the case, these identifications were wavering. The

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Speaker 1: victims were not sure. At various times, they were you know,

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Speaker 1: back and forth, and so even we know for sure,

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Speaker 1: and people who listened to the show have probably heard

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Speaker 1: the Jennifer Thompson Ronald Cotton episode, you know, where as

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Speaker 1: she was described as the perfect witness, a woman who

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Speaker 1: was you know, twenty two year old college students sober

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Speaker 1: home alone and spent twenty five minutes doing nothing but

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Speaker 1: sudying her attacker every detail because she was absolutely determined

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Speaker 1: that she was going to memorize everything about his appearance

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Speaker 1: and uh and she had time to do it, and

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Speaker 1: she identified him with absolute certainty in a lineup in

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Speaker 1: a muckshot book and a trial, and of course, eleven

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Speaker 1: years later, tragically found out that she had been wrong,

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Speaker 1: you know. And she's become a tremendous advocate as as

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Speaker 1: he for eyewitness identification procedure improvements and you know, refinements

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Speaker 1: and and and you know, there's just there's so many

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Speaker 1: things that we need to do, and there's many things

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Speaker 1: that we can do to improve that process. But in

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Speaker 1: your case, Luis that it wasn't even that it wasn't

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Speaker 1: even like it was a strong identification. It was you know,

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Speaker 1: they were they were on the fence, and so it

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Speaker 1: seemed so insane you had you had an alibi. The

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Speaker 1: time clock thing is blowing my mind. And it's interesting

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Speaker 1: too because I'm sure some people that are listening in

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Speaker 1: La you know, maybe may may have been to your

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Speaker 1: bagel store at the time. They may even know you so,

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Speaker 1: but go ahead.

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Speaker 3: Yeah it look it's interesting because these these descriptions that

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Speaker 3: the young lady gave, you know, which I do feel

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Speaker 3: very sorry that it happened to them. You know, I

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Speaker 3: think they were ultimately, uh not only influenced by all

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Speaker 3: the factors that were surrounding them, the fear, the stress,

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Speaker 3: the weapons, the weapon that was used, the chaos, and

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Speaker 3: not to mention the fact that when they were interviewed

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Speaker 3: at the time that they were interviewed. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 3: positive that they were influenced by the people that interviewed them,

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Speaker 3: you know, I mean, how could you go from being

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Speaker 3: seventy percent sure okay during a photo expect photo lineup.

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Speaker 3: How could you go from being no, no, no, wait

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Speaker 3: a minute, eighty five percent sure, Okay, eighty five percent

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Speaker 3: sure that I'm within the six pact that you were shown,

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Speaker 3: then from eighty five you go down. Talking about one

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Speaker 3: of the young ladies that identified me during a photo lineup,

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Speaker 3: first she said she was eighty five percent sure, then

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Speaker 3: she came back and said seventy percent sure. Then ultimately

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Speaker 3: during the trial, when uh, the DA went and asked

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Speaker 3: for her identification, all of a sudden, lo and behold, DejaVu,

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Speaker 3: you know one hundred percent sure that it was me

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Speaker 3: the one, the one that attacked her. You know that

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Speaker 3: is amazing to me, the way things happened like that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, everything was playing out in front of me

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Speaker 3: as if there was some type of motion picture. I

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Speaker 3: couldn't understand it. On my mind. Was was baffled because

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Speaker 3: of the things that were going on. I was so

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Speaker 3: sure and so confident that I was going to win

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Speaker 3: this trial because of the fact that I had nothing

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Speaker 3: to do with it. I had nothing to do with it.

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Speaker 3: I mean I was looking at the victims and the

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Speaker 3: witnesses straight in the eyes because I wanted them so

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Speaker 3: badly to identify me, not as the attacker, of course,

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Speaker 3: but as a person that did not have it.

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Speaker 6: No.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, I was dealt with a blow. I was deal

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Speaker 3: with what at that time seeing a deadly blow because

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Speaker 3: I was I was sentenced to spend the rest of my

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Speaker 3: life in prison.

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Speaker 1: Fifty five years to life was a sentence. And justin

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Speaker 1: this case has you know, so many really terribly common

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Speaker 1: earmarks of wrongful convictions, right, you have mistaken with its identification.

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Speaker 1: You have exculpatory evidence that was withhold clear Brady violations

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Speaker 1: in other words, in legal terms. And you also had

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Speaker 1: an incompetent defense attorney who didn't call witnesses to the

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Speaker 1: stand that could have and very well might have, you know,

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Speaker 1: influenced the jury in a way where they would have

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Speaker 1: gotten it right. Which is which is always like that,

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Speaker 1: That's all that always blows my mind, Like, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't understand how someone can pass the bar and

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Speaker 1: then end up as a lawyer. You have to have

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Speaker 1: a you know, a certain amount of intelligence. Not easy

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Speaker 1: to pass the bar, right you gotta, and and then

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Speaker 1: you end up in a court room and you don't

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Speaker 1: do the most basic thing that anyone who watches TV knows.

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Speaker 1: Call the witnesses who can say he was at a

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Speaker 1: different place, He couldn't have done this. He was making bagels,

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Speaker 1: fucking bagels. I mean, Jesus Christ, he was shmearing cream

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Speaker 1: cheese on the damn thing.

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Speaker 6: You know.

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Speaker 1: He was not raping this woman. I mean, oh my god. So,

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Speaker 1: I mean, so justin, can you explain how does that

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Speaker 1: even happen? Why is that a thing?

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Speaker 2: I mean, well, first of all, the ID problem is

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Speaker 2: really the biggest problem here. And I'll tell you something

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Speaker 2: even more shocking. We are two decades later and Los

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Speaker 2: Angeles is still using these procedures. Los Angeles has not

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Speaker 2: changed to the best practices for eyewitness identification. And we've

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Speaker 2: changed in San Diego, we've changed in Northern California, but

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Speaker 2: the biggest county in the United States is still doing this.

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Speaker 1: And what are these best practices? What are those best practices?

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Speaker 2: So you should never use six packs. So the problems

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Speaker 2: with six packs photo rays are well documented. And every

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Speaker 2: study has shown that when you show a victim six photos,

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Speaker 2: what their brain does is make a comparative analysis of

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Speaker 2: those six and they pick out the person who most

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Speaker 2: looks like the suspect. Now, it does. They may not

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Speaker 2: look like the suspect very much at all, but out

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Speaker 2: of those six, it's the person who most looks like it.

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Speaker 2: And then they start doing these statistical analysis of you know,

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Speaker 2: what's their percentage of clarity, and it's all completely meaningless.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's there's no way to assess in your

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Speaker 2: life what you're eighty percent or what you're sixty percent

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Speaker 2: sure of, what you're one hundred percent sure of, because

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Speaker 2: memory is so easily contaminated and there's so many problems

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Speaker 2: with it. So the best practice is to show single photos,

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Speaker 2: one at a time. And more importantly, you cannot have

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Speaker 2: the officers involved in the process who know who the

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Speaker 2: suspect is, because they always give off tells, and even

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Speaker 2: when they don't do something stupid like take a good

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Speaker 2: long look at number three, they do the kind of

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Speaker 2: things that we hear in this case where the last

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Speaker 2: talked about how the witness changed, how sure she was. Well,

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Speaker 2: that can happen as simple as this. You pick number,

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Speaker 2: you pick letter C, and the officer thinks it's letter C.

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Speaker 2: So they say things like good job, okay, great, all right,

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Speaker 2: we got them, and now they're one hundred percent sure

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Speaker 2: they have the right person. And in rape cases you

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Speaker 2: get the worst ideas because you have now a victim

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Speaker 2: who's very frightened. It's gone to a lot of trauma,

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Speaker 2: who desperately wants this person off the street. So they're

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Speaker 2: going to go along with that because that is what

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Speaker 2: their psyche wants to happen. They want to be comforted

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Speaker 2: by this that they got the right person, that they're

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Speaker 2: off the streets. So the problem in this country is

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Speaker 2: we have no true national criminal justice policy. Only in

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Speaker 2: the federal courts to the very small part of our

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Speaker 2: criminal justices, and most of it's in the state courts.

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Speaker 2: No one has control to change national policy, so we

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Speaker 2: have to fight these battles state by state and then

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Speaker 2: county by county, because for example, in Los Angeles, it's

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Speaker 2: up to the District Attorney's office and the chief of

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Speaker 2: police as to what procedures they use. So this is

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Speaker 2: going to be a battle that's going to go on

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Speaker 2: for a long time, Whereas in other countries, like I

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Speaker 2: just came back from the UK. In the UK, they

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Speaker 2: have national criminal justice policies that they put in place

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Speaker 2: throughout the country. But we've divided our country into all

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Speaker 2: these jurisdictions with all these little pockets of power, and

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Speaker 2: we have cases like Louise.

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Speaker 1: Right, And this is an interesting thing too, because this

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Speaker 1: is not a liberal or a conservative issue, or a

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Speaker 1: democratic or Republican or this, or that it should be

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Speaker 1: in this case. Is so why I'm so appreciative that

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Speaker 1: Louise is here, because this case screams out for all

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Speaker 1: the people. And we're talking about dozens of people, women

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Speaker 1: who were brutally attacked in the wake of his wrongful

359
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Speaker 1: arrest and conviction because they stopped looking for the real

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Speaker 1: guy when they got Luise. Even though these things went

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Speaker 1: on and on and on. It's like, so it's or

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Speaker 1: they took a beat. I mean, they must have started

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Speaker 1: again at some point, but they chose to just not

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Speaker 1: share that information with Louise and his team because they

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Speaker 1: already had him. But they knew that this was the

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Speaker 1: same guy. There was never any question. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: can't have a more dynamic example of a serial a predator.

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Speaker 1: I mean this guy was. I mean, it's unreal. I mean,

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Speaker 1: especially in a one point six mile radius, and that

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Speaker 1: would have terrified the neighborhood. I mean, but at the

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Speaker 1: same time, you know what bugs me about that is

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Speaker 1: that the authorities should have made this known to everyone,

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Speaker 1: because what about the how would you like to be

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Speaker 1: a parent of one of these kids, or a relative

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Speaker 1: or anything else? And you say, wow, if I had known,

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Speaker 1: I never would have let her go to the bus

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Speaker 1: stop by herself until this guy.

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Speaker 2: Was locked up.

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Speaker 1: I mean not a chance. I mean, anyone who's listening

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Speaker 1: who has a daughter, which I do, it's like you

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Speaker 1: would do anything you could to protect that child. Maybe

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't even let them go to school until this

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Speaker 1: was resolved, But no way would you expose someone to

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Speaker 1: a risk that was so incredibly high and you know

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Speaker 1: where it's going to happen. And by the way, they

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Speaker 1: also should have had patrols out at every bus stop

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Speaker 1: for that period of time, right, I mean definitely, how

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Speaker 1: long would it have taken. It's one point six miles.

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Speaker 1: You would have needed just a quick map, right thing,

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Speaker 1: and you could have done it. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not even I don't know. It's baffling to me,

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Speaker 1: the whole thing. And of course, you know, Luis is

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Speaker 1: one victim in this case, but there's so many others

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Speaker 1: and it's really it's hard to wrap yourself around it.

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Speaker 1: But it's why it's so important that we're doing the

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Speaker 1: work that we're doing. And again, where could the disagreement be.

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Speaker 1: Why would we as a society, anyone from any sort

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Speaker 1: of political persuasion or any ideology and philosophy, would want

399
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Speaker 1: to make sure that this predator, this animal, who was

400
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Speaker 1: doing these things over and over again, would be off

401
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Speaker 1: the streets. So in order to do that, we know,

402
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Speaker 1: we have the information, We've had it for years. As

403
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Speaker 1: Justin said, right, you know, we need to have what's

404
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 1: called the double blind, which means that the person conducting,

405
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Speaker 1: whether it's the mugshadow or the lineup or any sort

406
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Speaker 1: of eye witness identification procedure, cannot must not know who

407
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Speaker 1: the actual suspect is because even if they have the

408
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Speaker 1: best intentions, they're going to say things that will influence

409
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Speaker 1: the witness in this case, the victims or any witness

410
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Speaker 1: to to you know, to change their opinion, and that's

411
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Speaker 1: not a good thing. That leads to more mistakes. And

412
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Speaker 1: at the same time, we know too that mugshots and

413
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Speaker 1: this is the simplest thing in the world, right and

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Speaker 1: it's science, It's just fucking science. Instead of having six

415
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Speaker 1: pictures on the page you have one, and the mind

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Speaker 1: works better that way. And I know I would be

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Speaker 1: the world's worst witness because I'm that guy who will

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Speaker 1: meet somebody and I'm embarrassed to say so. I'll meet somebody,

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Speaker 1: we'll go to lunch, and then I'll run into them

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Speaker 1: three days later and they're like, hey, Jason, what's happening.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, man, how you doing? You know what

422
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Speaker 1: I mean? Like that, I'm like, oh God, I can't

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Speaker 1: remember it. I mean, I can't remember names. I can't

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Speaker 1: only remember jokes and phone numbers. But anyway, that's my problem.

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Speaker 2: So most people, most people are like you though, Jason.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think human beings just really don't have

427
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Speaker 2: that kind of capacity. And as you said, you know,

428
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Speaker 2: the police officers are not great poker players. You know,

429
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Speaker 2: my brother is a professional poker player. And I go

430
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Speaker 2: watch these guys play and they wear hats and sunglasses

431
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Speaker 2: and they look down at the table and they do

432
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Speaker 2: anything to not give a tell of what their hand is.

433
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Speaker 2: And these guys are professional poker players. But I imagine

434
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Speaker 2: these police officers they're giving out all kinds of signals

435
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 2: of who they really want to get, who the real

436
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 2: guy is, and it's tragic the results.

437
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's true.

438
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 3: Sometimes they unwinningly go ahead and give up tell tale science,

439
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 3: I say, a good job or you know, to lead

440
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 3: to kind of persuade the vectim at this time. But

441
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 3: sometimes this is the scary part that sometimes they just

442
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 3: do it for the sake of doing it because they

443
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 3: want to close a case. I mean, it's interesting to

444
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 3: me that at this moment, when you're talking about eyewitness identification,

445
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 3: I was just recalling back one of the faces in

446
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 3: my trolley and on February I think it was February sixteen,

447
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety nine. Well, one of the young victims identified

448
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 3: me in court. I mean this process. The DA at

449
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 3: this time said that the victim took a long time

450
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 3: to identify me because she was afraid, I mean a

451
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 3: long time, five minutes turned it to identify someone, you know,

452
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 3: and when she couldn't identify me because she scanned when

453
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 3: the when the DA asked her, you know, if she'd

454
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 3: seen me in the courtroom, can she please identify me

455
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 3: as in what I was wearing? She asked the DA

456
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 3: A question. She goes, I mean picture this, you got

457
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 3: you have the whole court room. Well it was standing

458
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 3: a standing room.

459
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,640
Speaker 6: You had the twelve jurors, you had.

460
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 3: The audience, and then you had me at the defense.

461
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 3: Of all that time, I had fired my public defender

462
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 3: because I mean, he was doing.

463
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 6: Such a lousy job.

464
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 3: I was so I was so confident that was not

465
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 3: going to get identified, that I was not going to

466
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 3: get sentenced that on one of the occasions, went into

467
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 3: one of our of our hearings, he went ahead and

468
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 3: asked for another extension. I got up, shot then everything.

469
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 3: I got up and I said, you, honor, I object,

470
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 3: I do not want another extension. I want this to

471
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 3: be over.

472
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: Man.

473
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 3: The bailiff rushed from the back and just grabbed my

474
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,919
Speaker 3: shoulders and sat me down, you know. And then when

475
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 3: I looked at my attorney and I told him I

476
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 3: don't want another extension, the public vender and he looked

477
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 3: at me. I mean, he straight out screened from the

478
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 3: top of this lunch, you're.

479
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 6: Gonna get sentenced.

480
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 3: And I go, no, I'm not. I didn't do these crimes, right,

481
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 3: And the judges slapped slapped the hammer on the on

482
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 3: the on the desk and just like order the court right.

483
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 3: So I go, okay, fine, but I told him I

484
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,120
Speaker 3: do not want another extension. Well, fast forward to one

485
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 3: of the faces in my trial. This young lady had

486
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,120
Speaker 3: such a hard time identifying me that she scanned when

487
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 3: she was sold to identify the look around the courtroom

488
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 3: and identify me. She asked the DA a question from who?

489
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 6: From them?

490
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 2: And let's go.

491
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 3: She was pointing to She was pointing to.

492
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 6: The jury, to the twelve jurors.

493
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 3: She was asking the DA from who do I have

494
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 3: to identify my attacker? From them? From the twelve jurors. No,

495
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 3: that's when the DA said, no, from the whole court room.

496
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 3: Look at the whole court room. So she scanned from

497
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 3: left to right, very slowly, left to right, all the

498
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 3: way from the jury to the defense table. And then

499
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 3: as I was looking, I mean I didn't lower my

500
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 3: head for a minute, not even a second. I looked

501
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 3: at her straight in the eyes and hoped to God

502
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 3: that she would say, No, that's not him, That's not

503
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 3: the bump in the nose that I remember, that's not

504
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 3: the clearest, the unshaven face that I remember. That's not

505
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 3: the tear drop that I remember seeing or not seeing.

506
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 3: She looked straight at me. I looked straight at her

507
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 3: and that not even one fraction of a second. Later,

508
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 3: she went ahead and scanned the room back all the

509
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 3: way back to the jury room, to the jury where

510
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 3: the jury was sitting, and stop hesitated, didn't say nothing.

511
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 3: The DA once again went like, pronounced her name and said,

512
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 3: can you please look the court room and identify the

513
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 3: person that attacks you? Okay, this time she didn't ask

514
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 3: can you please tell us if the person that I

515
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 3: could he is here? This time she's saying, can you

516
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 3: identify the person that attacked you? In other words, you

517
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 3: know what he's definitely here or you have to do

518
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 3: is identifying it. So now the victim is over here

519
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,120
Speaker 3: once again, scanning the room from left to right. I mean,

520
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 3: they took an eternity. And she did this three times,

521
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 3: and I'm all this time, I'm looking at her, I'm hoping,

522
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 3: I'm praying to God to be rid of those shackles. Well,

523
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,120
Speaker 3: when she did this the second time, by this time,

524
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 3: the DA asked the judge to grant her emotions. She goes,

525
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 3: your honor, can I please move around the court room?

526
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 3: Your honor goes like, what's the reason the DA, And

527
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 3: I'm surprised by that time, I had a hired attorney.

528
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 3: I'm surprised he did not object to that. But when

529
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 3: the judge asked her what was the reason, she said,

530
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 3: I just want to move around the court room, let

531
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 3: her know, let my witness know that she's okay, that

532
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 3: she's not in danger, that everything's fine, you know. So

533
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 3: the judge goes granted. So I had an attorney that

534
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 3: I mean, he was like well maybe at that at

535
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 3: that time, probably a good sixty four sixties years old.

536
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 3: Maybe he was Anglo Saxon, real tall, hair, as white

537
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 3: as snow, and he was pretty light complexed, so light

538
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 3: that on the heated day he could probably turn red

539
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 3: because of the heat.

540
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 2: Right.

541
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 3: Well, anyways, the young the DA goes behind him. I mean,

542
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 3: picture this in the middle of a trial where someone's

543
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 3: life is I mean, at the precipice of being sentenced

544
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 3: to fifty five years to life. I mean, I'm talking

545
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 3: about my earliest chance of parole was going to be

546
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 3: on October of twenty forty five. Could you imagine that?

547
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 3: I mean, I thought the whole world was eating me alive. Well,

548
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 3: the DA goes behind my attorney and stands behind him,

549
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 3: and she goes to the young.

550
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 6: Lady, does this look like the person that attacked it?

551
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 3: Come on all? Was she gonna say no? Then the

552
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 3: DA she might as well grab her little points. She

553
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 3: pulled it out, stretched it out and fregen up me

554
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 3: and said.

555
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 6: Hey, this is the guy right here.

556
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 3: Look get them you know, I mean hispanic, possibly a

557
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 3: gang affiliated, slick hair, black, you know, comet backwards, tattoos,

558
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 3: look looking a real good. You don't need to think long.

559
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 6: This is the guy.

560
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 3: She might as well have said that, because after she

561
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 3: stood behind my attorney, she stands right, and I knew

562
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 3: what this was going to cough. I knew what's gonna

563
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 3: happen next. As soon as I seen her approach my attorney,

564
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 3: I said, okay, here it comes. Here comes the shotgun blast.

565
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 3: Because it did feel like a shotgun blast. I felt

566
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 3: that I was taken back by all the things that

567
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 3: were going on. I mean, they sentenced me basically, I'm

568
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,719
Speaker 3: nothing but the drama that was in the cours. I'm

569
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 3: surprised the DA didn't grab tissue and took it to

570
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 3: the victim and said, here, dry your eyes. You know,

571
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 3: let the jury see this. You know that you're being

572
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 3: so affected by this. I'm surprised. I did it happen

573
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 3: because it was Hollywood. I mean, that was basically Hollywood

574
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 3: right there. She still right behind me and said this,

575
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 3: this looks like the person that attacked it. Come on,

576
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 3: what was the victim going to say? Young lady? Stressed out, scared, nervous,

577
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 3: you know, influenced by other other factors. This lady had

578
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 3: gone from during her identification process.

579
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 6: This lady had.

580
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 3: Gone from a second photo lineup that they had showed her. Well,

581
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 3: she was not sure. Now in court she had gone

582
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 3: from not being sure to being one hundred percent certain

583
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 3: of her identification. This happened in court after the DA

584
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 3: stood behind me and acted as appointer and put the

585
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 3: target on me and said.

586
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 6: Is this the person that attacked you?

587
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 3: Take off the ifs, do not even make it a question,

588
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 3: because you're basically saying, this is the person that attacked you. Well,

589
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 3: at that moment, that young lady, just at that moment,

590
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 3: she just went ahead and said, yes, that's him. Oh

591
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 3: my goodness, I felt that my whole world had fallen

592
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 3: apart once again.

593
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: And justin that, I mean, it sounds to me like

594
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: there's no question that the judge acted improperly. Here too, right,

595
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: he absolutely should have called at that point it's a mistrial,

596
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: isn't it.

597
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think at a certain point a judge has

598
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 2: a responsibility to say this just doesn't pass the basic test.

599
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 2: There's a basic rule of evidence that if evidence is

600
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 2: more prejudicial than probative, it shouldn't be admitted in a courtroom.

601
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 2: And if she has to look around the room three

602
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 2: times and be prodded by the DA And as Louis said,

603
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 2: this identification led to his entire life being taken away

604
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 2: from him. We just can't let people get convicted in

605
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 2: this country and go to prison based largely on emotion

606
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 2: and bad evidence.

607
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: No, that's I mean, that's bad behavior. Doesn't even begin

608
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 1: to describe it. And you know, I want to I

609
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: do want to make the point, and I make this

610
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: often that you know, I'm a person who believes in

611
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 1: a system of laws, and I think that we have

612
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: a lot of very good police officers out there, a

613
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: lot of very good prosecutors, judges, defense attorneys, but the

614
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: bad ones do just incredible amounts of damage. And this

615
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: is an example of the system failing, Luis and US

616
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: as a society, and the residents of la in so

617
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: many different ways, and it's just it never it never

618
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: ceases to blow my mind how this could go on

619
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: in the country. You know, it's twenty well, this was

620
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: twentieth century. Was the end of the twentieth century. I

621
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 1: mean we're talking nineteen ninety nine in America, and this

622
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: is not like and it became like a witch trial.

623
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: I mean, with her standing behind you, it's like, yeah,

624
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: you're done. That's it. I mean, it's just like, just

625
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: draw a circle around you. I mean it's like, anyway,

626
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: I can't even well, and it's La. It's not the

627
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: Deep South, right, it's Los Angeles.

628
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 2: So it happening today, and it's happening. I mean, that's

629
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 2: the thing it's so frustrating in California is even with

630
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 2: stories like even and in Luis's case, by the way,

631
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 2: when we filed the habeas petition and pointed out all

632
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 2: these inconsistencies and how the DNA from one of the

633
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 2: cases he was charged with matched up the cases that

634
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 2: happened when he was in prison, the District Attorney's office

635
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 2: conceded this case and he was declared innocent. But it's again,

636
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 2: it's sort of like and now we move on. You know,

637
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 2: it's we have to make the changes we have to.

638
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 2: This is what I love why I love your show

639
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 2: so much, because your show goes back and dissects these

640
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 2: cases and says, we can't just move on. We need

641
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 2: to look at these cases and make the changes. And

642
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 2: what we got to learn from Elisa's case is Los

643
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 2: Angeles County and every county in America has to stop

644
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 2: doing these procedures because they are victimizing the people who

645
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 2: go to prison. They're victimizing the community and the people

646
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 2: who have been victimized by these people, and they don't

647
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 2: get the right person. And it's just shocking that it's

648
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 2: still going on.

649
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: I'll even take it one step further. How would you

650
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: feel if you were one of the jurors and then

651
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 1: later on you find out that you were tricked right,

652
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: that you were actually tricked into making a decision that

653
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 1: ruined the lives of Louise and some of his family members,

654
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: but also that led to a you know, an outcome

655
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: that was tragically predictable, which is that this serial rapist

656
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 1: went on to commit these other horrible crimes. I mean,

657
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: the jurors are in there trying to do we would

658
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: hope their level best to make sure that the right

659
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: outcome is reached. I think that almost anybody that goes

660
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: into a jury room is you know, there'll be some

661
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: people who may have some inherent biases. We try to

662
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: read them out, but it doesn't always happen. But for

663
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: people who are listening now, and I talk about this often,

664
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 1: everyone who's listening is a potential juror, and someday you're

665
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: going to end up getting called for jury duty. First

666
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: of all, go and second of all, when you go,

667
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 1: be woke, think about Louise, think about what happened to him.

668
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 1: Look for those signs in the courtroom, so that if

669
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 1: this type of stuff is going on, you're able to

670
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: think about, wait a minute, the line how is the

671
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,399
Speaker 1: lineup conductor? How is the thing or how are they

672
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,839
Speaker 1: behaving in the courtroom? Are they being suggestive? Are they

673
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: is this a fair trial? Am I being presented with?

674
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 1: Remember it's beyond a reasonable doubt. That's one of the

675
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 1: bedrocks of our whole system, right, it's supposed to be

676
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 1: beyond How can anyone listen to this story? And of

677
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: course hindsight's twenty twenty, but how could anyone listen? I

678
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 1: think anyone listening now would say, well, if I was

679
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: on that jury, I would have I never would have

680
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: voted to convict. I mean, but twelve people did, and

681
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: so you know that's and anyway, now IM gonna turn

682
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: it back over to you, Louise, I'm sorry.

683
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,879
Speaker 3: Well, going back to a jury identification, right, my son

684
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 3: and my wife they got a jury summons, and one

685
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 3: of the things that I told them was like, you know,

686
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 3: they showed it to me. I told them, you know,

687
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 3: do this, that's duty that you have to observe. So

688
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 3: when you go, make sure that you listen to all

689
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 3: the evidence real carefully, because remember I told them this,

690
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 3: use my case as an example, and they know very

691
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 3: well what happened in my case. My case was such

692
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 3: a high FOTI five case that my picture was coming

693
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,280
Speaker 3: out on every newspaper, even including Laupinill the Mexican newspaper.

694
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 3: It was front cover, full size, front cover. When I

695
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 3: went to the Mexican Councilate to try to get my paper,

696
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 3: my Mexican ID to begin my process and my PIRTH certificate,

697
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,240
Speaker 3: they were requiring me a picture. I d now remember.

698
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 3: All I had with me was my prison identification and

699
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,919
Speaker 3: the Turning had said, do not show that unless it's

700
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 3: absolutely necessary. So here I am in the Mexican Counselate

701
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 3: in front of these people trying to give my Mexican

702
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 3: paperwork so I could start my identification process. Well, when

703
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 3: I go in there, I look at a stack of

704
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,879
Speaker 3: newspapers from Lapinille and then guess what all of them

705
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 3: had my picture on it. They must have been probably

706
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 3: around maybe twenty four twenty five newspapers stacked up altogether. Well,

707
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 3: when we went in there, my mother, you know, not

708
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,359
Speaker 3: being just thought I was a celebrity because she's I mean,

709
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 3: this is something to hold, right, So she went ahead.

710
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 6: And grabbed about probably five or six.

711
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 3: Newspapers and put them in her bag. Well, when we

712
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 3: walked in there, we're in front of I mean, they

713
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 3: gave us such a hard time to try to get

714
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 3: our paper that we finally went into this attorney's office, okay,

715
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,359
Speaker 3: And we're in front of her desk, sitting down and

716
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 3: we're explained to her that I have no identifications that

717
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 3: I need to begin to get my birth certificate and

718
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 3: my Mexican matriculand.

719
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:40,720
Speaker 6: Which is ID.

720
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 3: And the first thing she tells us is, well, you

721
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 3: know what, you cannot get it because you have to

722
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 3: show us a picture I d and once again, my

723
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 3: mother got so frustrated, missus Jason. My mother got so frustrated,

724
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,720
Speaker 3: mister Brooks that what she did it was funny.

725
00:38:57,719 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 6: This was hilarious.

726
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 3: She went ahead and grabbed one of the newspapers with

727
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 3: my picture right on the cover, right front cover, on

728
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 3: my county blues, and she it was the picture of

729
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 3: the day. I got accelerated, and she went ahead and

730
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 3: stood up. I mean, it's like they gave her a

731
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,359
Speaker 3: Vita b shot, right, and she stood right up and

732
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 3: she grabbed the paper and she she literally slammed it

733
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 3: on the attorney's desk and said, is this enough of

734
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 3: a ninety for you? In Spanish?

735
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 6: Right?

736
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 3: She goes, is this is enough of a ninety? I

737
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,359
Speaker 3: mean she was mad. I hadn't seen my mouth so mad,

738
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 3: you know, forever, right, But she slammed it on the

739
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 3: desk and she goes, is this enough for an identification

740
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 3: for you? My son who was sentenced? And you know,

741
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 3: the the attorney lit at me, shocked. She looked at

742
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 3: me and she goes, is that you come on? She goes,

743
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 3: is that you I go yes, that's me. And that's

744
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 3: when I when I brought out my idea identification, I

745
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 3: put it on the desk next to the newspaper and

746
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 3: told her that's me. And yes, they exponerated me of

747
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 3: crimes that I have not commite. Back in nineteen ninety seven,

748
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 3: I spent close to eighteen years of my life from prison,

749
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 3: the convict being sentenced to fifty five years to life. Okay,

750
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 3: no chance of seeing life anytime soon until this miracle happened.

751
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 3: CIP came into the picture and I went ahead and

752
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 3: had the opportunity to prove Yes, California and as a

753
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 3: project came into the picture and had been had it

754
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 3: not been for them, there were only two ways of

755
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 3: me coming out of prison. Either people I seen over

756
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 3: twenty two people killed killed in prison behind the cront

757
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 3: that I had, you know, and fortunately for me and

758
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 3: thank god, you know, nothing happened to me. But anyway,

759
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 3: going back to the story, the attorney looked at me

760
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 3: and her response, her comeback really shocked me. It really

761
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 3: shocked me because the first thing she said, she had

762
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 3: such a secere look in her face. And this is

763
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 3: what your audience needs to keep in mind, because she

764
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 3: said the Svargas, I am so sorry. And I looked

765
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 3: at her and it baffled me. At the moment. I

766
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 3: wasn't thinking at the moment. I wasn't like putting two

767
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 3: and two together. But I looked at her and she goes,

768
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 3: mister Vargus, I'm so sorry, and I go, why is that?

769
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 3: And then she goes, I'm sorry because a jury. Listen

770
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 3: to this, mister Jason, mister Brooks. When she apologized, she

771
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 3: was apologizing for something that to me, apparently she had

772
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 3: nothing to do it. But then when she gave me

773
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 3: the response that I needed to really hear, it costs.

774
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 3: I mean, to me, this was closure in a way.

775
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 3: It was kind of closer to me because I finally

776
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 3: felt that someone sympathized, empathized, not sympathize, empathize with what

777
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 3: I went through. And I'm still struggling to put the

778
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:51,240
Speaker 3: pieces together. But she said, I'm sorry because a jury

779
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 3: of your peers. Imagine that someone that wasn't even sitting in.

780
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 6: The jury at that day.

781
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 3: But she said, I'm sorry that a jury of your

782
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 3: peers committed this mistake, and because of that, you were

783
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 3: sensus to fifty five years to life. I am so sorry.

784
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 3: And at that moment I said to myself, within my

785
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 3: I didn't say. All I said to her was thank you,

786
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 3: But deep inside myself, I was like relishing and the

787
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 3: fact that I was beginning to find closure because it

788
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 3: was difficult for me.

789
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 6: It still is, it still is.

790
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 3: I'm having trouble with a lot of things out here,

791
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 3: but you know what, I'm working a lot through it.

792
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,240
Speaker 3: I got wonderful people such as the California Innocence Project,

793
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 3: Justin Brooks, through kel Cohen, Elisa Berjoko, I had Simpson,

794
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 3: mister Jeremy, all these wonderful people, even you guys, even

795
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 3: your station. Even this is helping me event it's helping

796
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 3: me let everything out. It's helping me go ahead, and

797
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 3: you know what, forget about my past and renew my

798
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 3: future because now that's actually what I have to do.

799
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 3: I have to renew.

800
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 2: Well.

801
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 1: That means a lot for you to say that, because

802
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it's something that's been an obsession

803
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: of mine, is trying to be a small part of

804
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: the recovery process, or the healing process, or the re

805
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:16,359
Speaker 1: entry process for brave men and women like you. So yeah,

806
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 1: I think it's you know, your your a fantastic role

807
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: model I think for other people who are going through

808
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: not just these challenges, but other challenges in life. I

809
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 1: think for me, I can say that just having a

810
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 1: chance to talk with you and to be around others

811
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 1: who've been through similar horrendous ordeals put so much gratitude

812
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: in my attitude and makes, you know, it gives me perspective.

813
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: And so I you know, I thank you for you know,

814
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,240
Speaker 1: coming on, and I know it's not easy to share

815
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: these experiences, but it's so important in so many different ways.

816
00:43:56,520 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 1: And I wanted to ask you too. In the limited

817
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 1: time that we have left. We covered a lot of

818
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: ground here already. But when you were sent to prison,

819
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 1: as you said, there were twenty two people in there.

820
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 1: Some were guilty, some were probably innocent like you, who

821
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 1: were murdered because they were charged with the similar crimes

822
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 1: like you were charged with. Yes, and you managed to survive.

823
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 1: And I think Justin was telling me that there's a

824
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 1: you actually found an amazing sort of way to protect yourself,

825
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 1: And can can you talk about that? You know what

826
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 1: I mean?

827
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 3: Yes, I know exactly what you mean. I have to

828
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,320
Speaker 3: do this on almost every six months because in prison

829
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 3: the the people that controlled the prison yards.

830
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 6: Okay, they asked for paperwork. Okay, this paperwork.

831
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 3: Has all your controlling crimes, what have you in prison,

832
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,720
Speaker 3: and all your backgrounds, and it said whether you're charged

833
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 3: with a rape or not. So what I had to

834
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 3: do was that I had to Fortunately for me, I

835
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,879
Speaker 3: let it work a job in the program office where

836
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 3: I had access to the computer. So what I was

837
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 3: able to do that one document that they would always

838
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 3: ask for, that the person politicians would always ask for,

839
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 3: would they would. What I managed to do was that

840
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 3: I had to type a new controlling crime. I had

841
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 3: to type different dates, different names of lieutenant captains and

842
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 3: commissioners that always appeared on the annual classifications. And I

843
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 3: had to drop the font I had to lower the

844
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 3: letter size exactly to the size that the original paper had.

845
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 3: So what I had to do was that I had

846
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 3: to carefully wide out the information that said that I

847
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 3: was there for rape and the dates and all that.

848
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 3: And what I did, I went ahead.

849
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 6: And typed out first degree burglary.

850
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 3: On the computer. I lowered the fonts, I went ahead

851
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 3: and pasted them on top of the document that they

852
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 3: had given me, and the new dates that coincide with

853
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 3: all the annual classifications, the new names that coincide with

854
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 3: all the people that were at that annual pleasications.

855
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:02,799
Speaker 2: I had to go ahead and do that.

856
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 3: Almost every six months. Every three months, when they would

857
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:07,959
Speaker 3: ask for paperwork, they would take it to their cell

858
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 3: and for two or three days at a time, they

859
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,839
Speaker 3: would analyze it. They would scrutinize it, and they would

860
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 3: make sure that that paper was legitimate. So what I

861
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 3: had to do I would have to fabricate new paperwork

862
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 3: with my information on it, saying that I was there

863
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 3: for as a struck out inmate under the three strike law,

864
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 3: and my prime, my controlling Clint, was purty Reburglary.

865
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 6: So I had to wide out all.

866
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 3: The information and paste the new information on top. And

867
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 3: after that I had to run copies, and after that

868
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 3: I had to analyze it. I had to make sure

869
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 3: that it was no smudges, no wrinkles, no nothing on

870
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 3: it that would indicate that it had been tampered with.

871
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 2: Because if not, so, imagine that, Jason, that we've so

872
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 2: given over control of our prisons that the shot callers,

873
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,760
Speaker 2: which are other inmates who are running the yard, actually

874
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 2: request inmates to turn their pace work over to them

875
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,399
Speaker 2: so they can review it and decide whether these guys

876
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 2: should be killed or not. And a lot of people

877
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 2: don't realize there's a real hierarchy in prison. There is

878
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 2: this hierarchy in prison, and if you're in as a

879
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 2: child molester, you're going to get killed. If you're a

880
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 2: nerds a rapist, you're to get killed. And you've got

881
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 2: to answer to what in prison is a higher authority

882
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 2: not to get guards, not the courts, but the guys

883
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 2: who are running those yards. And and yes, Louis had

884
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 2: to worry every day were they going to figure it out?

885
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 1: Well, that's unbelievable. I mean the amount of the amount

886
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:40,279
Speaker 1: of forethought and the amount of technical ingenuity and uh

887
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 1: and everything else that you had to you know, with

888
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: and a person like yourself who didn't have training in

889
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 1: these areas right coming in. The idea that you were

890
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 1: able to create this narrative and then prove it this

891
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 1: false narrative to literally save your own life is something

892
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 1: that I'm sure there's some people listening from Hollywood who

893
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:02,800
Speaker 1: are going to be like, oh, I'm gonna put that

894
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: in a script now, because I don't think anybody's even

895
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: seen that in a movie before. I mean, it's unbelievably brilliant.

896
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: And in fact, if not for that, we probably very

897
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:13,359
Speaker 1: likely wouldn't be talking to you today because you would

898
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 1: have been not only then you would have been roughly

899
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 1: and I'm sure there were others like like you said,

900
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: of those twenty two, and we know now that you know,

901
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 1: somewhere between five and ten percent of the people in

902
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 1: prison in America are innocent. So it stands to reason

903
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 1: if twenty two guys were killed while you were in

904
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 1: there for similar crimes, Let's say you know, probably two

905
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: of them according to the statistics, probably two of them

906
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 1: were innocent people who are in prison, and then we're victimized.

907
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:38,800
Speaker 1: And it's interesting too. You know, yesterday I want to

908
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 1: give a shout out because yesterday I had a lunch

909
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: with a guy Namednick Turner who runs the Vera Institute

910
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 1: for Justice, who are doing incredible work and trying to

911
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 1: reform the prison system and bring better practices and humane

912
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: treatment into the prisons. And they're doing this in a

913
00:48:55,600 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: variety of ways. They're bringing correction officials and high ranking

914
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:04,760
Speaker 1: members of government to visit European prisons where they treat

915
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 1: people completely opposite the way we do. I mean, where

916
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,800
Speaker 1: there's respect and there's you know, and it actually leads

917
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:14,880
Speaker 1: to a better society because of the fact that when

918
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 1: these people come out there were civism rates are so

919
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 1: low because they've been treated like human beings when they

920
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: were in and they've been given the tools and the

921
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: dignity to come out and succeed on the outside, because

922
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 1: their attitude in Europe, most places in Europe is hey,

923
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: you know, when you come out, you might be living

924
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 1: next door to me somewhere, and I'd rather have you

925
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 1: be somebody who I treat, you know, with dignity, and

926
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 1: then you come out and you know, we could you know,

927
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 1: have a meal or whatever it could be. And some

928
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 1: of the things that VERA is doing, and I encourage

929
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: anyone who's listening to go check out via Institute for Justice.

930
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 1: I don't remember the website off hand, but it's easy

931
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 1: to look up and see some of the programs that

932
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,240
Speaker 1: they're even doing in prisons in America which are leading

933
00:49:55,280 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 1: to dramatic decreases in violence inside the prisons, tremendous drops

934
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,720
Speaker 1: and recidivism rates, which is something we all should care about.

935
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, the good news is there's

936
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:11,400
Speaker 1: a movement underfoot. I think it's unstoppable at this point.

937
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:13,959
Speaker 1: But at the same time, we're going to need as

938
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 1: many people to get involved as possible, and I want

939
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 1: to before we close, I want to encourage people to

940
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 1: go to the California Innocence Project website as well. I'm

941
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 1: sure there are opportunities to volunteer and get involved. Justin

942
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 1: can talk more about that maybe in his closing remarks,

943
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:34,879
Speaker 1: but you know, and and then I want to say,

944
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: this is, you know, as we get ready to wrap

945
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:43,919
Speaker 1: up this this episode, you know, my favorite part Justin

946
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 1: knows this, but for Luis's as new for you. My

947
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 1: favorite part of the show is when I get to

948
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 1: actually stop talking and just listen. And so what I

949
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 1: like to do is turn the microphone over to you

950
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 1: guys for final thoughts. And we're gonna save the best

951
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 1: for last, and that's you, Luise. So Justin, what can

952
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 1: you what are your what are your closing remarks? Is

953
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 1: not it's not a trial, but it might as well be.

954
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:16,319
Speaker 2: A closing argument. Well, I just think, you know, it's

955
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 2: so important that people remember that this can happen to you.

956
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 2: You can be at work one day and the police

957
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 2: show up and arrest you for something that you know

958
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 2: nothing about, and you can hope for the best, but

959
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 2: you can see through bad identification procedures, through false confessions

960
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 2: that are obtained through people just giving false information, you

961
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 2: can be convicted of a crime in the United States

962
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 2: of America and go to prison for the rest of

963
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,799
Speaker 2: your life for something you didn't do. This is all

964
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 2: of our criminal justice system. We all should take ownership

965
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 2: of it. We're all responsible for it. So you need

966
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 2: to get involved. So yeah, go and check out my website,

967
00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:00,760
Speaker 2: California Innofansproject dot org. You could follow me on Twitter

968
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 2: and hear my rants every day on Twitter. Justin o'brooks Houstinobrooks.

969
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 2: And you know, it's coming up to be the end

970
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 2: of Jerry Brown's life as governor in California. He's got

971
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 2: about one hundred and forty seven days left. So the

972
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 2: day that he has one hundred days left, I'm going

973
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 2: to walk to Sacramento for the second time and ask

974
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 2: him to release a number of our innocent clients that

975
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,440
Speaker 2: we followed clemency petitions for. So I'd ask for the

976
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 2: support and that retweet my tweets to the governor that

977
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 2: I tweet every single day and get involved. It's our system.

978
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:38,880
Speaker 2: We're responsible for it.

979
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 1: So that's just Justin Obrooks on Twitter, George Justinobrooks and

980
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,879
Speaker 1: just to Geek. I mean, Justin's being too modest. He's

981
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,399
Speaker 1: going to be walking about seven hundred miles. He's done

982
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 1: it before and he's doing it again. That's the type

983
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,479
Speaker 1: of commitment that I can just sit here and take

984
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,479
Speaker 1: my hat and my shoes off too and say, man,

985
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 1: that is just it's awesome. I'm hoping to join you

986
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 1: for part of that journey and I'm planning on it,

987
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 1: and I hope other people will too, and you can

988
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:08,919
Speaker 1: and people can learn more about that by following Justin

989
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 1: on Twitter Justin Obrooks and going to California Innocenceproject dot org. Okay, Luis,

990
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 1: I'm turning it over to you.

991
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 3: Well, Okay, I'm thankful first of all for having this opportunity. Secondly,

992
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 3: I let to tell everybody out there. I mean, I'm

993
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 3: pretty sure you have wonderful audience that want to get involved.

994
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 3: I do not doubt that at all during the times

995
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 3: that I was in prison, that all the years that

996
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:30,839
Speaker 3: I was in prison and I ran into a lot

997
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 3: of people that used to come up to me and say,

998
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:36,720
Speaker 3: I'm innocent. I'm innocent of the crimes that they accused

999
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:39,439
Speaker 3: me of, and then they would vent. I would ask

1000
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 3: them questions and they would vent, and they would tell

1001
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 3: me how their crients went and everything that they went through,

1002
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 3: and they would affirm I am innocent. I mean, I'm

1003
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 3: talking about people that were sentenced to twenty five years

1004
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 3: to life plus one hundred more years come on, what

1005
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 3: kind of sentences to those And they were telling me,

1006
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 3: I'm innocent, I'm innocent the crimes I have committed they

1007
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 3: accused me of. Well, I never had the opportunity. I

1008
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:02,799
Speaker 3: never had the opportunity to have a shoulder to be

1009
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 3: able to bent on because then they would ask questions,

1010
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:06,759
Speaker 3: why are you here for? And I couldn't tell them.

1011
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:09,799
Speaker 3: But there were many people that told me that that

1012
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 3: they were innocent. So projects such as the California Innocence Projects,

1013
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 3: and not only public involvement, but all the people that

1014
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 3: also hear these type of cases that are being spoken about.

1015
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 3: I mean I urged them to go in and get involved.

1016
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 3: If you have people, if you have someone in prison

1017
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 3: that has been wrongly convicted and you feel that it's

1018
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 3: been wrongly convicted. As I have heard many stories of

1019
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:35,360
Speaker 3: people out here nowadays, get involved. Write the people that

1020
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 3: you need to write to. I mean when I was

1021
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:39,279
Speaker 3: in person, I were over twenty some letters hoping that

1022
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:41,879
Speaker 3: someone would answer. And I thank god that mister Justin

1023
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:45,719
Speaker 3: Brooks and the California Insans Project did answer that it

1024
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:48,319
Speaker 3: was very important to me. They went ahead and did that. Unfortunately,

1025
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 3: I was able to come out on my own to

1026
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 3: the feet, not on a stretcher. I was able to

1027
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:55,279
Speaker 3: come out and be able to speak out here as

1028
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 3: far as the things that are going on. So people,

1029
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 3: wonderful audiences that are out, get involved. Get involved, because

1030
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:04,160
Speaker 3: you are the one that makes a difference. As mister

1031
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 3: Jason said, you're going to be part of a jury.

1032
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:07,759
Speaker 3: You know, it's going to be up to you to

1033
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:09,400
Speaker 3: be able. You're going to be able to hold someone's

1034
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 3: life in the balance in your hands, and it's going

1035
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 3: to be on you whether that individual gets rightfully, rightfully

1036
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 3: tried or not.

1037
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 6: But you guys are the voice that we have.

1038
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 3: You guys gave me a voice, okay, when I had

1039
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 3: no voice, when I was behind prison bars and I

1040
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 3: couldn't do anything about my situation.

1041
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:27,320
Speaker 6: It was the public.

1042
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 3: It was you guys, the people that got involved that

1043
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 3: was able to help me out, and not because you guys.

1044
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:34,399
Speaker 3: I'm out here right now, I'm talking to you through

1045
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 3: these wonderful means of the radio, and I can feel

1046
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 3: those positative vibies. I can sense that, you know what,

1047
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 3: there is someone out there that saying, you know what,

1048
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 3: I can and I should make a difference. So get involved,

1049
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 3: get involved. Once again, I just want to thank you

1050
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 3: guys for for doing this and for allowing me to

1051
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 3: get involved in such programs such as these, because it's

1052
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 3: a wonderful thing to be able to contribute. They bring

1053
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 3: such self satisfaction to be able to say, you know what,

1054
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:02,240
Speaker 3: I should get involved, So please get involved.

1055
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:08,400
Speaker 1: Louise, thank you again. It's really been inspiring listening to you.

1056
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:11,839
Speaker 1: You're a remarkable man and I wish you all the

1057
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 1: blessings that life has to offer. And I'm looking forward

1058
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:18,360
Speaker 1: to getting to know you more as we travel along

1059
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 1: this road and working together to spread the word and

1060
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 1: justin what can I say? You're the you know you know,

1061
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 1: like I said, you're you're a hero of mine and

1062
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:30,279
Speaker 1: so many of us in the movement, and I'm looking

1063
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,680
Speaker 1: forward to working closely with you to yeah YouTube for sure,

1064
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 1: and I'm looking forward to working closely with you on

1065
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:42,879
Speaker 1: as we as we turn this whole situation upside down,

1066
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:46,279
Speaker 1: which is exactly what we're going to do. So thanks so.

1067
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 2: Much, brother, I really appreciate all that you do for

1068
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:49,720
Speaker 2: all of us out here.

1069
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:54,360
Speaker 1: Okay, well, this has been an amazing episode for me

1070
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 1: to be a part of, and I want to thank

1071
00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:04,880
Speaker 1: the audience for listening to Wrongful Conviction. Don't forget to

1072
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,960
Speaker 1: give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts,

1073
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:11,239
Speaker 1: it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the

1074
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:13,759
Speaker 1: Nisnce Project and I really hope you'll join me in

1075
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 1: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future

1076
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. Go to innisonsproject dot org to learn how

1077
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 1: to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our

1078
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 1: production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in

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Speaker 1: the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

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Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction

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Speaker 1: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 1: Jason Flahm is a production of Lava for Good podcasts

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Speaker 1: and association with signal Company Number one