1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: In the mid nineteen nineties, when Pamela Anderson was at 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: the height of her fame, she sat down for an 3 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: interview with talk show host Regis Fielden. He was the 4 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: co host of Live with Regis and Kathy Lee, and 5 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: pam was there to promote Baywatch, which was rated number 6 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: one in. 7 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 2: The world at that time. 8 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: Regis was asking her about the sudden and wild popularity 9 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: of that show, where she played c J. Parker, a 10 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: veteran lifeguard patrols the beaches of southern California in a 11 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: cherry red one piece swimsuit. And that suit, well, that 12 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: suit was what Regis and seemingly all of America really 13 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 1: wanted to talk about. 14 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:40,480 Speaker 3: And I love your red bathing suit. 15 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: Oh thank you. 16 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 4: I don't think there's a bost blattering, but there's. 17 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 5: Something about those one piece suits. 18 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. 19 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 4: Oh I like one piece suit. 20 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 5: That was bikini. 21 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 2: Excuse me what you can't see? 22 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: And what gets that laugh at the end is the 23 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: face Regis makes after he says that he's biting his 24 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: thumb like a horny teenage boy who just can't contain 25 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: himself thinking about that swimsuit. And you know what, he 26 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: wasn't entirely alone. There was something about that swimsuit. 27 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 5: I'm Jessica Bennett and I'm Susie Banacarum. 28 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: This is in retrospect, where each week we revisit a 29 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: cultural moment from the past that shaped us. 30 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 5: And that we just can't stop thinking about. 31 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: This week, we're talking about a swimsuit, a very specific 32 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: swimsuit worn by Pamela Anderson on Baywatch, that classic and 33 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: can't be Lifeguard drama. But we're also talking about what 34 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: that swimsuit represented, which was a particular view of sexuality 35 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: that defined nineteen nineties America, which happens to be the 36 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: era we. 37 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 2: Grew up in. 38 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 3: So jess we're talking about that famous red swimsuit. But 39 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 3: like everything else on this show, it's not just a swimsuit, right. 40 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: That suit became one of these key artifacts nineties culture, 41 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: Like we all remember it. It hung on posters in 42 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: bedrooms of teenagers all across America and the world. It 43 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: eventually was like plastered onto beer cooozies and beach towels. 44 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: I was like going down the rabbit hole on eBay. 45 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: There's calling cards. I remember calling cards when you would 46 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 1: have to like go into a payphone and dial Yeah, 47 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: so that's some suit with Pam and it was on 48 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: calling cards. 49 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 5: That's weird. 50 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: It was on pinup calendars, like basically anywhere you could 51 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: put an image and sell it. There was Pam in 52 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: that suit. And side note, she never made a dime 53 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: from any of those. 54 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 3: Because she didn't have any rights to her own image. 55 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 3: The image was around. That's wild too. So what made 56 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 3: you think about that suit? 57 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 5: Now? 58 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you'll remember that she released a memoir recently, 59 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 1: and she was also the subject of a Netflix documentary 60 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: that was actually produced by her son, all about her life. 61 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: And so late last year I traveled to Canada and 62 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: basically it got snowed into Pamela Anderson's house that sounds 63 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: amazing in Lady Smith, Canada, where she grew up, which 64 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: is where she now lives, in order to write a 65 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: profile of her and at one point, to tie this 66 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: back to the suit, I found myself in Pamela Anderson's 67 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: attic as you do. 68 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 2: And you know, it's fascinating. 69 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: It's full of old magazines, interviews, She's done, all of 70 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: her Playboy covers. She's very into scrapbooking, so it's like 71 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: scrap books she made for her kids who are now grown. 72 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 2: Old report cards. 73 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: There was like a wedding scrap book album she had 74 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: made for Tommy Lee. Her ex husband was married to 75 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: someone else now but who's the father of her children? 76 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: They co parent And I also uncovered an old bay 77 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: Watch barbie. 78 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 2: Do you remember that there was a bay Watch Barbie? 79 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know that I remember it, but 80 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 3: I can immediately conjure up the image of it, so 81 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 3: I must have been aware of it in some way. 82 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: So it's not specifically branded as the Pamela Anderson bay 83 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: Watch Barbie, but of course she looks like Barbie, and 84 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: Barbie looks like her. She is the Quintus Barbie exactly, 85 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: so you know, the Barbie's wearing the red soup. The 86 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: barbie has the lifeguard Booie. There's a little dolphin which 87 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: is very palm. Also shows an animal rights activist. Yeah, and 88 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: to show the impact of this suit, but also the show. 89 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: This is one of the top selling barbies of all time. Really, 90 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: it's another little data point that tells you about the 91 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: impact of that swimsuit and that suit on that show. 92 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 5: Interesting. 93 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: So we're talking about the swimsuit, but for those who 94 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 1: need a little refresher Baywatch. 95 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 2: What was Baywatch, Susie? Do you have a recollection of Baywatch? 96 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 3: I mean, I knew that Baywatch was a lifeguard show. 97 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 3: It felt like it was on TV all the time 98 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 3: in the ninety years it was. 99 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: It ran from nineteen eighty nine to nineteen ninety nine, 100 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: and the show was about a group of lifeguards who 101 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 1: patrolled the beaches of La County. The action usually revolved 102 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: around like dramatic water rescues, so lifeguards diving into waves 103 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: or even jumping from helicopters into the open ocean. But 104 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: you know, there were also, as you can imagine, really 105 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: dramatic things such as shark attacks, earthquakes, like hot affairs, 106 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: and even murder, so you know, like your usual beach 107 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: day drama. 108 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 3: Okay, And I remember it as really being a show 109 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 3: that starred Pam Anderson, although I also remember that David 110 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 3: Hasselhoff was like a big character on. 111 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 5: The show, right, a big character on the show. He 112 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 5: was like the captain of the team or something, so 113 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 5: a lifeguard team. I don't know. 114 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 2: That is all true. 115 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: But while Pam, you know, universal sex icon of the nineties, 116 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: and some could argue still today, was indeed a big 117 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: part of it. She didn't actually join until the third season. 118 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 3: Really, yep, I had no idea. I mean, I just 119 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 3: think of that show as so tied to her. I 120 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 3: can't imagine that show without her. 121 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: And the thing about Pam Anderson in that show is 122 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: that it was really her who took this swimsuit and 123 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,919 Speaker 1: cemented it into the American psyche in this way that 124 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: none of us will ever forget. But of course that 125 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: is how we feel now, and I was really curious 126 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: how Pam felt about it back then. So I went 127 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: back to Pam and I asked her what it was 128 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: like to act in that suit. 129 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 5: I guess that's a difficult question to ask. 130 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 4: I was just doing what I was told wearing the costume, 131 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 4: and I would have been on the beach anyway, So 132 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 4: it was fun to act in a swimsuit. I was 133 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 4: getting a tan and doing a job at the same time. 134 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 4: I know a lot of the girls kind of complained 135 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 4: about wearing a swimsuit all the time, but I actually 136 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 4: really enjoyed it. It was either the red swimsuit or 137 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 4: the black swimsuit. Where we did all of our workouts 138 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 4: and all of our slow motion montages. People always ask me, 139 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 4: how did you stay in such good shape on that show? 140 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 4: And I thought, well, just wear a bathing suit every 141 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 4: single day and you just don't eat that bagel. 142 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 3: I love hearing her voice, but unfortunately I do eat 143 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 3: the bagel. 144 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 5: Is that bad? 145 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 3: But yeah, it really is amazing that you can immediately 146 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 3: conjure up what that swimsuit looks. 147 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: Like, trying to remember if there was one image of 148 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: that suit that like really crystallizes this. And it's almost 149 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: like there's dozens of moments. So if you look back 150 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: at the show itself, you see Pam in the red 151 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: suit grabbing her booie and running towards the water. We 152 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: see Pam in the suit bent over like sexily lotioning 153 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: up with. 154 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 2: Sunscreen as one does. 155 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: We see Pam and her swimsuit on the jet ski. 156 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: We see Pam going to save a drowning man, but 157 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: like turns out, the guy isn't really drowning, He just 158 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: wants to Pam and h in the red swimsuit save. 159 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 3: That must have been a lot of the cave prompting 160 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 3: a false rescue is a crime? 161 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 4: Can bust me for that? 162 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: I love you? And so much slow motion running like 163 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: slow motion from every angle from back, below, side, top, 164 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: any angle you could possibly do slow motion. But the 165 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: show's opening credits are. 166 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: Really what I remember. 167 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: The watch Sam song I'm Always Here some by the 168 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: eighties hair metal band Cobra. I love the hair metal 169 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: band plays in the background, and so as the opening 170 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: credits play on, you see these scenes of you know, 171 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: sunny California beach sand babes and bikinis like sun umbrellas, 172 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: kids laughing, and then you meet c J. 173 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 2: Parker. She's got her hands on her hips. 174 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: The camera slowly pans from her very perfect and very 175 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: tam legs up to the top of her cherry red 176 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: swimsuit and then up to her face, and we see 177 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: that that suit is extremely low cut on the top, 178 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 1: very high cut on the hips, and like basically side 179 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: boob is in full effect. 180 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 3: So obviously a very functional lifeguard totally functional suit. And 181 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 3: so wait, you're telling me that there's more to the 182 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 3: opening than just Pam, because I remember the entire opening 183 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 3: is just being Pam running down the beach. 184 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: I love that that's the way you remember it, because 185 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: that's what I think most people's takeaway was. But actually 186 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: it introduces all the characters there's also a beach scenes like, 187 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: it's giving us a glimpse into southern California beach life. 188 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 2: But what do we remember we remember par. 189 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 5: What do we actually know about the swimsuit? 190 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 3: I mean, it really does not seem like a functional lifeguard. 191 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: Sh Okay, so funny you should raise that because the 192 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: original suit. So I mentioned that Pamela only joined in 193 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: season three. So the original suit was inspired by real 194 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: California lifeguards. It had like an official Elie County lifeguard 195 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: patch like the real kind. And the creators of this show, 196 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: one of them had actually started out as a lifeguard 197 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: in California. So they were quoted at the time talking 198 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: about how they wanted these suits to be quote practical 199 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: and actually work in the surf. They wanted to have 200 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: good support in the bust, they wanted to have minimal 201 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: creep in the back, and as one of them said, 202 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: it was all about athletics and functionality. 203 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 3: Wait, so the original swimsuits were standard issue like lifeguard 204 00:09:59,520 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 3: swim suit. 205 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: Yes, they were truly based on real lifeguarding. They wanted 206 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: to replicate what actual lifeguards wore. At one point, one 207 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: of the co creators of the show had this whole 208 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: description about how they wanted the suits to work in 209 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: the water in big surf. You know, they were talking 210 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: about how if you're a real lifeguard, you have multiple 211 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 1: victims that can be grabbing onto your hair, your suit, 212 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: your arms, your legs, and they could easily rip off 213 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: a swimsuit if they're desperate enough, they're you know, they're drowning. 214 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: So they couldn't have two piece swimsuits. It was too risky. 215 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: These needed to be legit swim suits. 216 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 3: I think this is taking things a little literally for 217 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 3: a TV show. 218 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 2: No, I mean, okay, here's the thing. 219 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: This was a show that began as something that was 220 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: meant to be a serious lifeguard show. This was at 221 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: a time early nineties, like this was the era of 222 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: like LA Law, Law and Order, NYPD, Blue Er, like 223 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: all of these shows about like doctors, cops, whatever, where 224 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,079 Speaker 1: we were like going inside behind the scenes, and they 225 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: really like exactly got it. So the original conceit for 226 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: Baywatch was to be a quote serious lifeguard show. And 227 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: in fact the title Baywatch that's actually a real name 228 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: of the rescue boats that patrol. 229 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 2: So then California pages. 230 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 5: Did you know, I did not know that I grew 231 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 5: up in California. 232 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: So what happened was Baywatch was canceled the serious Baywatch 233 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: was canceled after its first season on NBC, and then 234 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: it was basically saved by a syndication deal. In the process, 235 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: the production budget was slashed by a third and a 236 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: lot of the original cast members either quit or were fired. 237 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 2: They basically rethought the show. 238 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: It got a little bit sexier, they took themselves a 239 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: little bit less. Seriously, that makes sense. They didn't have 240 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: as much money. This is actually how the slow motion 241 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: run gets put into the show, because they were trying 242 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: to save money and take up more airtimes, so they were. 243 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 2: Like, let's just slow it down. 244 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 1: So that run actually came from one of the creators 245 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: of the show. His name is Greg Bonan. He was 246 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: the one who was a lifeguard, so he sort of 247 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: thought he knew everything about lifeguarding. 248 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, he might have known everything about he 249 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 3: also seems beside the point, but he. 250 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 1: Also got his start as a TV producer for the Olympics, 251 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: so he would film the athletes in slow motion to 252 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: show their athleticism. Oh and so he brought that idea 253 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: over to Baywatch, you know, to show their athleticism like questionable. Yeah, 254 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: And later on, David Hasselhoff he goes on to become 255 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: an executive producer of the show, and he's basically made 256 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: it seem like the sexiness was kind of an accident, 257 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: so he told Men's Health in twenty twelve, we didn't 258 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: have enough financing to finish the show, so we found 259 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: a way to fill the hour by shooting people running 260 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: in slow motion. We said, Wow, girls in bathing suits 261 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: look good running in slow motion, so let's just shoot. 262 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 5: That, and they just like put in huge like chunks 263 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 5: of that. 264 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 2: I mean it would actually someone should do a study 265 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 2: of this. 266 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: To actually figure out how much of that show, percentage wise, 267 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: is just running in slow motion. 268 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 2: It's probably more than dialogue. 269 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 5: That is a fascinating way to fill time. 270 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,959 Speaker 1: So anyway, then in nineteen eighty two, in it's third season, 271 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,839 Speaker 1: this is when Pamela Anderson is cast. She actually replaces 272 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: another actor who quit because she didn't like the new. 273 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 2: Direction of the show. 274 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:10,959 Speaker 5: The slow mo or the sexiness, I. 275 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: Mean, I think they go hand in hand. But pam 276 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: takes on the role of c. J. Parker, who was 277 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: supposed to be the most experienced lifeguard on the show Fancy. 278 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: She was a character who was actually partially based on Pam, 279 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: the real life Pam. 280 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 2: She was like a dreamer. 281 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 1: She was really into like new agy stuff and crystals 282 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 1: and mindfulness. 283 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 3: I love the idea that they were like, we should 284 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 3: meet with Pam and see what she cares about it, 285 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 3: like write it into character. 286 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 2: She was into animal rights. 287 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, because it's like, you know, it's important for this 288 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 3: to feel really authentic, and. 289 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,679 Speaker 1: She exactly and she was constantly falling in love. So 290 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: they also redid the bathing suits. 291 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 5: Ah, but the bathing suits got redone for Pam. 292 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: They didn't just redo the suits for Pam. They readed 293 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: them for everyone. But this was kind of part of 294 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: this sexier rebrand. So what happens, Well, the new suits 295 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: have a much lower scoop in the front. They have 296 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: high cut legs on the sides to kind of show 297 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: or fake the appearance of height. They often have this 298 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: really low back, though some of them had crossbacks, and 299 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,439 Speaker 1: it actually is funny. There's quotes from different actors over 300 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: the years talking about that swimsuit. Kelly Packard, who didn't 301 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: join until much later, but she played lifeguard April in 302 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: season's eight and nine. 303 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 2: She once said that her swimsuit was. 304 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: So far up her butt that she started crying because 305 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: it was patonful. 306 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 5: Yep. 307 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: At a certain point, you know, as this rebrand is happening, 308 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: actually putting on the simsuit is part of the audition. 309 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: But I don't think anyone knows this in advance. So 310 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: like years later, Carmen Electra has this story. She tells 311 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: The New York Times about how she showed up without 312 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: having shaved her legs, and she was like, oh God, 313 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: I hope they don't notice. 314 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I feel like that is something you 315 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 3: should warn someone about. But it really does feel like 316 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 3: it has the potential to lead to some awkward situations. 317 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 5: It's so objectifying, right. 318 00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 2: You're being asked to put on this ssuit. 319 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because a few years ago Esquire brought 320 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: together all of the original actors and did this oral 321 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: history of the show. And Tracy Bingham, who played the 322 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: first black bay Watch Babe, she came on in ninety six, 323 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: So that gives you an idea of how white the 324 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: show was. 325 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 2: It started in eighty nine, so white. 326 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 5: I remember that show as being so white. 327 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: She describes being in her trailer and one of the 328 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: producers coming in and asking her to put on her 329 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: suit and then basically like touching underneath her breasts to 330 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: make sure she wasn't patting them. 331 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 5: That's not okay. Does Pam ever talk about that about 332 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 5: sort of those experiences. 333 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: Well, so it's interesting because Pam got her start in Playboy, 334 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: So it sort of sets up this tone. She was 335 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: discovered in her small town where she grew up in Canada. 336 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 2: She was in her early twenties. 337 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: She was at a football game and the JumboTron camera 338 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: pans over to her and she's wearing this crop top 339 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: with the Bats you know, that beer brand on it. 340 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: And so of course Labats is like, who is this woman? 341 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: They hire her to getting discovered this way? Yeah, and 342 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: so she goes on to become Playboy's most photographed cover 343 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: model of all time. 344 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 2: Oh wow, but that takes a few years. 345 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: So at this time she was working as the tooltime 346 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: girl in Home Improvement. 347 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 6: I don't think so well. 348 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 2: The whole role. 349 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: Of the tooltime girl was like, not to speak, but 350 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: just to like look cute in a pair of daisy 351 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: dukes and have a tool belt on and like handover 352 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: the tools and so that was the period she was 353 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: in when she auditioned for Baywatch. 354 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 3: It's interesting because I do really think of Playboy and 355 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 3: Pam as very intrinsically connected. Like to me, when I 356 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 3: think of the classic Playboy cover model, I do think 357 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 3: of Pam. 358 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: And that's so interesting too, because actually Baywatch and Playboy 359 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: are intrinsically connected in the same way. Playboy became this 360 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: kind of natural casting choice for Baywatch at the time. 361 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: Also side note, it was often jokingly referred to as 362 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: Babe Watch. 363 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, that feels right. 364 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: So in season one, the actress who played Shannie McClain, 365 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: this is a character who was on the first two 366 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: seasons she had previously posed for Playboy, then came Pam 367 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: as c J. Parker, later on Carmen Electra who played 368 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: Lonnie mackenzie Kelly Monico, who made several appearances Playboy even 369 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: did a Babes of Baywatch issue in the late nineties. 370 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: So they were going to Playboy in some ways to 371 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 1: recruit actors for Baywatch. And in that same oral history 372 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: I mentioned for Esquire, it's funny because one of the 373 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 1: producers basically says in front of all the other actors 374 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: that they basically hired a bunch of hot women who 375 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: would look good in a swimsuit but couldn't act. 376 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 3: I mean that makes sense, because looking good in a 377 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 3: magazine has nothing to do with being able to deliver 378 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 3: a dialogue. 379 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 5: But they sure could run. 380 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: I didn't realize how big bay Watch was until I 381 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: was researching this. Oh right, Yes, it was one of 382 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: the first TV shows to be syndicated, which meant that 383 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,719 Speaker 1: basically they could run it on multiple channels, which probably 384 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 1: explains what it seems like. 385 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 5: It was. 386 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 1: At its height, it had billions of viewers, literally billions. 387 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: It was the most watched TV show in the world, 388 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: and actually, at a certain point it was literally shown 389 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: in every country. 390 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 5: Ye how's that even possible? That check this, okay, I mean, 391 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 5: I believe you. 392 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: It's just some of the foreign syndications eventually started, including 393 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 1: what Pam calls the Pamela clause, which they wouldn't buy 394 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 1: the episodes unless she appeared in them. She of course 395 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: didn't get paid any extra for that, but that's impressive. 396 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: And then one of the most interesting things I found 397 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: was it there's actually an economic theory name for Baywatch, 398 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: having something to do with the export of culture into 399 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 1: foreign countries called the Baywatch effect. 400 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 3: Oh so that's interesting because it's not really even just 401 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 3: an economic export, right, It's like the way we think 402 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 3: about America, the way other people in other countries think 403 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 3: about us, must be so shaped by this sort of 404 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 3: quintessential California show. I mean, I grew up in you know, 405 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 3: large part in California, so I always sort of had 406 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 3: this image of the quintessential California girl. But that becomes 407 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 3: just the American in most. 408 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: Places, absolutely, which actually reminds me of Borat. All I 409 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: could think about was this lovely woman in her red 410 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: water panties. 411 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 5: Who was this cj oh. 412 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 3: Right, Because in that movie, he's going looking for Pam Anderson. 413 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 5: He's here to like Mary Pam, and then he tries 414 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 5: to kidnap her. 415 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: Because it's a huge theme all that he knows of America. 416 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it makes sense, and it's interesting because 417 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 3: I do really think for most of the world, that 418 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:39,439 Speaker 3: sort of blonde Barbie girl is what America represents to 419 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 3: them in some ways, this sort of like care free, 420 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 3: sunny lifestyle. 421 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: And of course I grew up in Seattle, which is 422 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: the opposite of the sunny happy used to the suicide 423 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:50,360 Speaker 1: capital of the World. 424 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 5: It's oh interesting, did not know that. 425 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 1: Strangely, I also grew up watching Pamoy Anderson on Baywatch 426 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: awkwardly with my god. I distinctly remember this with my 427 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: two younger brothers, who are twins are three years younger, 428 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: and my dad in like our dingy TV together like 429 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 1: a family as a family, and like how did that happen? 430 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: I do remember my mom always kind of like making 431 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: remarks about how. 432 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 2: This was trash TV. 433 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's and. 434 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 2: I think there was just not a lot else on. 435 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: We didn't have cable, there weren't that many options, and 436 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: this was like on NBC, so it was supposedly a 437 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 1: family friendly show. Yeah, so okay. Pam joined that show. 438 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety two. I was in middle school. I 439 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: was like insecure, hated my body. I had just taken 440 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 1: part in a protest called skirt Fest at my middle school. 441 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 5: What did that protest? 442 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,719 Speaker 1: My seventh grade boyfriend had been kicked out of class 443 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 1: for wearing my skirt. 444 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 2: Oh this was the era. 445 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 1: Do you remember those like long flowy skirts that everyone 446 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: was wearing kind of like hippie grungy. 447 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 5: Kids was original boho chic. 448 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 2: Yes exactly, but like not cheek at all. 449 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: Anyhow, he got in trouble for wearing a skircho class 450 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: and got kicked out of class, and so we staged 451 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,120 Speaker 1: a walk out and we picketed in front of Washington 452 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 1: Middle School, and we got the high schoolers to come 453 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: and they supported us, and we made the local newspaper. 454 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: But how does this relate to pant I mean, A, 455 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: we were never wearing swimsuits because it's dark and treary 456 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 1: in Seattle all the time, so like the idea of 457 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 1: us in a red swimsuit would never happen. Also, like 458 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 1: bright colors, we don't do that in Seattle. It's ray 459 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 1: only and it every day. And yet we all knew 460 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: who she was, We all knew of the sex goddess 461 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 1: in the red swimsuit. We all, i think, subconsciously still 462 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: compared our bodies to that. 463 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it would have been impossible to be 464 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,640 Speaker 3: a preteen or teen girl in this era and not 465 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 3: compare yourself to what was so obviously the ideal. Right, 466 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 3: Like you and I are both brunettes, for example, and 467 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 3: I was obviously conscious of that growing up in California. 468 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 3: I think it's a very natural thing as a woman 469 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 3: to see kind of what the idealized female form is 470 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 3: in culture. And then especially as you're sort of trying 471 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 3: to understand your relationship with your body, ask yourself in 472 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 3: what ways you differ from that or what ways you 473 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 3: aspire to that? And I think most girls would have 474 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 3: felt that way. 475 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, even in my like grungy skirt 476 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:31,360 Speaker 1: in rainy dark depressings. Yeah, that red swimsuit became synonymous 477 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: with sex and the ideal, and in many ways it 478 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: was a straight male fantasy of the ideal. 479 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, the distillation of that fantasy. 480 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 2: You know, it's like, what is the impact of a swimsuit? 481 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 2: It's such a tiny thing. 482 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,679 Speaker 1: You can really dig into this and say, Okay, what 483 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 1: did that teach us about bodies? To wear a sim 484 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:56,360 Speaker 1: suit like this, one had to have absolutely bionic, unmovable breath. Yeah. 485 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 3: I mean, one thing I have thought of is that 486 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 3: when you're watching that slow mo run, if you were 487 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 3: a normal like with natural breasts, your rest would just 488 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 3: be like right and balancing like crazy. 489 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: And param Anderson has talked at length about like regretting 490 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: her breast implants, and she got them at this time, 491 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: and then she got them removed and she got them again. 492 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 1: So it's not like she would deny this either. But yes, 493 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: that is not some suit that a person with natural 494 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: breast can wear. 495 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 5: Oh, run in at least or run in. 496 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, the high cut, like you have to be completely 497 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: waxed to wear some suit that high cut. 498 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 3: And that's interesting because I feel like now or well 499 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 3: now there's a backlash. But there was this period where 500 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 3: Brazilian bikini waxes became very ubiquitous. But when we were 501 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 3: you know, in the nineties, that was not super common. 502 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,239 Speaker 1: It's so funny because that was like we were all 503 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 1: getting those in high school. 504 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 5: You were, yes, wow, much more advanced. 505 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: But actually, we can't talk about all this in a vacuum, 506 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 1: like you have to understand what was happening culturally at 507 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 1: the time. So this is like mid nineties, it's kind 508 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: of like the height of raunch feminism. You know, we've 509 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: come so far toward equality that now we can like 510 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,479 Speaker 1: OBJECTI virus and it's totally fine. 511 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 3: This is like the girls gone well, there has gone wild. 512 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: It's like spring break. Is this also like when the 513 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: restaurant Hooters, Well. 514 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 3: Certainly I think one of the most popular sort of 515 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 3: moments for restaurants, as they call them, the hooters of 516 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 3: the world were very much part of the mainstream cultural conversation. 517 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: And also shows like The Man Show, which has male 518 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: comics and then a sideshow of women in bikinis jumping 519 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: on trampolines, girls jumping on trampling. So, as I was 520 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 1: trying to think through what was happening in the culture 521 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: at the time, I called up Susan Douglas. She's a 522 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: professor of media studies at the University of Michigan and 523 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,919 Speaker 1: the author of a book called Enlightened Sexism. And that 524 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 1: book is fascinating because it basically makes the argument that 525 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 1: this kind of raunchy objectification is coming on the heels 526 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: of or at the same time really as serious gains 527 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 1: in women's rights. 528 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 3: Oh, that's interesting because it feels it's kind of a 529 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 3: backlash to the eighties image of like the Wall Street 530 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 3: working girl with her business suit and her new ten 531 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 3: waves white sneakers with their pumps in her bags exactly. 532 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: And so in a way, this objectification is almost like 533 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 1: a reaction to feminism and to too many or allegedly 534 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: too many games, because we're always getting too ahead of 535 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: ourselves and so this is what she calls what she 536 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: charms and latent sexism, which is essentially this idea of like, hey, 537 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: full equality has been achieved, Like we have that Wall 538 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 1: Street woman who is breaking the glass ceiling. So sexual 539 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: objectification of women like Pamela Anderson can't really hurt us anymore, right, No, 540 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 1: it's progress. 541 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 2: We can be feminist and sexy. 542 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: Anyway, here's Susan who will describe it much better than 543 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: I can. 544 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 7: I think it's easy to forget what a swirl the 545 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:57,239 Speaker 7: nineties was of feminist revolt, girl power third wave on 546 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 7: the one hand, and the increasing objectrification of women, and 547 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 7: also the discovery of teenage girls as a really really 548 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:13,239 Speaker 7: important niche market. So you do have this kind of 549 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 7: revival of feminism at the same time that you have 550 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 7: a backlash against it, and this is what made Susan 551 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 7: Feluti's nineteen ninety one book Backlash a smash bestseller. And 552 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 7: you were also getting the increased sexualization of women and girls, you. 553 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,479 Speaker 6: Know, which it started back when in the eighties with 554 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 6: Brickshields and those Calvin Klein ads, And so you start 555 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 6: getting this kind of ironic sexism where of course full 556 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 6: equality has been achieved, so it's really not possible to 557 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 6: hurt women anymore with sexist depictions in the media because 558 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 6: everything is allegedly equal, when of course it wasn't. 559 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 3: It's so interesting because I feel like this is the 560 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 3: thing we're kind of seeing again now. And I mean, 561 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 3: obviously history repeats itself, but every time it feels like 562 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 3: there's some sort of conversation that makes men uncomfortable like 563 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 3: me too. Then there's like this backlash that's like, no, 564 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 3: it's too far, it's gone too far. 565 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 2: Another thing I learned to mention. 566 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: I don't want to give it too much credit, but 567 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: that swimsuit literally spawned a generation of plastic surgery. Pam 568 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: Anderson has talked she famously got implants. She's talked many times, 569 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 1: and she's very open about it, about regretting it. She 570 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: called it a vicious cycle that she could never break 571 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: out of. Side note Ripley's Believe it or Not. At 572 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: one point offered to put her removed implants. 573 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 2: On display in its museum. 574 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 5: She said, no, yeah, good for her. 575 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 1: But cosmetic surgeons over the years have talked about how 576 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: she truly ushered in this era of plastic surgery that 577 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 1: made them. 578 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 5: Rich like her body, atomic impact exactly. 579 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: Her body became the reference point, and typically people would 580 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: come into plastic surgery offices with photos of her in 581 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: that red swimsuit and say, like, I want that body. 582 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 3: That body specifically, so like liposection, like whatever it would 583 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:11,640 Speaker 3: take to make your body. 584 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 2: Look like that, liposection to perfection. 585 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 6: Do you have any pictures of about the size that 586 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 6: you might want to make. 587 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 5: Sure Pamela Anderson, I'd say, so. 588 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: That's a clip from this MTV show you might remember it. 589 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: It's from the early two thousands called I Want a 590 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: Famous Face, and it shows you exactly what I'm talking about. 591 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: This young woman is using Pamela Anderson as the literal 592 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: reference point for. 593 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 2: The plastic surgery that she wants. 594 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 5: I mean, it kind of makes sense. 595 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,479 Speaker 3: Pam is beautiful if you're trying to get plastic surgery. 596 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,719 Speaker 3: It's like a smart reference point, I guess. 597 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: And so, of course you know that show is extreme, 598 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: but I actually found some pretty stunning data about plastic 599 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: surgery from that time. So pam joining Baywatch in nineteen 600 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: ninety two, and with the data shows is that in 601 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: the next ten years, so from nineteen ninety two to 602 00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: two thousand and two, rest augmentations in America went up 603 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: by five hundred percent. 604 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 3: Oh my god, I mean people won't be able to 605 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 3: see my face, but I did, like a comically shocked 606 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 3: face just now. 607 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 2: It's a huge number. 608 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: And in one article I was reading about those stats, 609 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: there's this plastic surgeon quoted who basically says, like we 610 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: were blessed with they watch. It was like an hour 611 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: long plastic surgery commercial. 612 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 5: They should have given her a kickback. 613 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: And the funny thing is, you know, based on my 614 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: conversations with her and thinks she's said over the years, 615 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: as all of that is happening, she herself does not 616 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: feel good about her own body. God. 617 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 3: That is really the true female experience, right, It's like, 618 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 3: no matter how much other people admire your body, and 619 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 3: can still find the flaws right. 620 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: And interestingly, in Pam's case, that's even more complicated because 621 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,719 Speaker 1: so many people have literally seen her naked. 622 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 3: Right, I mean, we haven't even really gotten into the 623 00:29:45,720 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 3: sex tape yet. 624 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: Okay, so we do need to talk about the sex tape. 625 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: Pam is on Baywatch. She starts dating the rock star 626 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: Tommy Lee, and during their honeymoon, they start filming. It's 627 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: what has been called in the popular culture a sex tape, 628 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: but actually it's like a very long VHS with like 629 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: tender moments of them getting together. 630 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 2: And then them on their honeymoon, and. 631 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: Yes, there are a few minutes in this very long 632 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: tape of them having sex. 633 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 2: That sex tape gets stolen from. 634 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: Their home, from a safe in their home and distributed 635 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: and basically Pam now talks about this as the great 636 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: humiliation of her life. 637 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 3: Right, totally without their consent, right, I mean, I think 638 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 3: the popular culture now sort of assumes most sex tapes 639 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 3: are lead by the people in the sex tape, But 640 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 3: in Pam's case, it genuinely was just this personal memento 641 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 3: that they had made of their romance, and then somehow 642 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 3: somebody got their hands on. 643 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: It and this of course, there have been podcasts done 644 00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: just on this tape, but yes, this is like the 645 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: start of online pornography. She sues them, they lose in court, 646 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: But this is all happening during Baywatch, and so it 647 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: connects because for a time after the tape went public, 648 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: foreign distributors and the networks began demanding that Pam be 649 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: taken off there like they thought this was going to 650 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: be too controversial for the show. But interestingly, and maybe 651 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: not that surprisingly, it actually helps space. 652 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 3: We well, now it's not surprising because we know that, 653 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 3: like Kim Kardashian's entire career was kicked off by a 654 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 3: sex stage. But back then, I can see how executives 655 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 3: might have thought that there may be some sort of 656 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 3: backlash against it. 657 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 2: And you know, why are we talking about this? 658 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: So the thing is there's this connection between that swimsuit 659 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: and what would happen to her in her later life 660 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: and the way that she was kind of set up 661 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: as this object in many ways. She starts in Playboy 662 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: where she poses nude. She goes on to be this 663 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,719 Speaker 1: bomshell on Baywatch that is spread across beach towels and 664 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: calendars and everything else. And then there's this sex tape 665 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: which is distributed without her consent, and it's not just 666 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: her nude, it's pornograph. 667 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pornography. And there's this real sense that her 668 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 3: body belongs to the public. 669 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 6: Right. 670 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: One of the oddest things to me, you know, in 671 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: spending time with her and researching her and reading every 672 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 1: interview she's done, watching the documentary, is this sense in 673 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: truly an anecdote after antatyote after anecdote, that she almost 674 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: becomes like a public commodity in some way, like people 675 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: feel entitled to her in almost. 676 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 5: A physical, physical ways. 677 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,479 Speaker 2: There are a few clips where you can really hear it. 678 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: She goes on Howard Stern ostensibly to talk about her career, 679 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: and he ends up spending the whole time talking about 680 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: how cute her private parts are. 681 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 2: Well, you know, gonna be slaughtered. Anty. Let me just 682 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 2: look at you perfectly. Let me show KEI in for 683 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 2: a second. 684 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 6: Come on, don't sit down so quick. 685 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: Matt Lauer, who goes on to be fired for sexual misconduct, 686 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: does an interview with her where the first question is 687 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: asking her about her breasts. 688 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 3: May we talk briefly about your Oh my god, I 689 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 3: mean that's so crazy, because Matt Lauer was a serious 690 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 3: journalist like that would have been in a news interview. 691 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good point. There's another example. 692 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: At one point, she takes part in a roast on 693 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: Comedy Central, and so you know she's agreed to do this, 694 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: so in some ways she's in on the joke. But 695 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: again it's her ex husband Tommy Lee who's roasting her, 696 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: and this is the way the monologue begins. 697 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 5: This is actually a special time for Pam to be 698 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 5: here because she just turned thirty eight and her kids 699 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 5: just turned fourteen. 700 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: And it's almost like this becomes weirdly physical in a sense, 701 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: like people or fans feel like they are entitled to 702 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: her physical space. Right. 703 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 3: They claw at her at events, right, They're trying to 704 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 3: get to her a lot of the time. 705 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: And so she in her book, she has a couple 706 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: of different stories. One about Tim Allen, who was a 707 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: star of Home Improvement where she was the tool Time girl, 708 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: and on her first day on the set, she walks 709 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: out and he's in a robe and they're outside of 710 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: the dressing rooms and he flashes her and he says, 711 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 1: now you've seen me naked too. He since denied that, 712 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: of course, but it's in her book. There's another scenario 713 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: that she talks about also in her memoir where she's 714 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 1: traveling to Uruguay for some sort of fan event and 715 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: she gets out and the car is surrounded by teen boys, 716 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of teenage boys, and they're like shouting 717 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: for her, and then suddenly they're like clawing at her, 718 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: and her bodyguard has to literally throw her over his 719 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: shoulder and like get out of there, and by the 720 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: time she gets back to the truck or the suv 721 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 1: or whatever, her clothes have been physically torn. 722 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 2: Off of her. 723 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 5: That sounds terrifying. 724 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: There's this other story she told me, which she also 725 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: writes about in her book, but basically, she comes home 726 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 1: one day to Malibu when she's living there and a 727 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: deranged fan has broken into her home, is in the 728 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: basement and has fallen asleep in the swimsuits, and they 729 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,399 Speaker 1: basically have no idea how long she's been there. 730 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,479 Speaker 5: God, there's so much like invasion of her, like. 731 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 2: A personal space. 732 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, for what it's worth, the suit is now a 733 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 1: safe in her son's home. 734 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 5: It should really be in the Smithsonian. It really should actually, Yeah, 735 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:05,760 Speaker 5: I mean seriously. 736 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:07,800 Speaker 1: Even as late as two thousand and three. You remember 737 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 1: that book with Chuck Cluster in Books Sex, Drugs and 738 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 1: Cocoa Puffs. 739 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 5: Of course, he. 740 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 1: Writes about Pamela Anderson in there, and there's this quote, 741 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: am I physically attracted to Pamela Anderson, of course, But 742 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 1: the more I see her, the more I realize I'm 743 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: not looking at a person I'd like to sleep with 744 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,280 Speaker 1: I'm looking at America. 745 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,399 Speaker 5: That really is the thing, Right, She's so intrinsically tied 746 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 5: up with the idea of America for so many people, 747 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 5: she becomes almost like a symbol rather than a person. 748 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 1: Right, She's like a souvenir that everybody wants to own 749 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: a piece of. And I mean, look like Pamela Anderson 750 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: is certainly not the first woman in our culture to 751 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,800 Speaker 1: become a sexual commodity or even to own her part 752 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 1: in that. I mean, I was thinking back to you know, 753 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,320 Speaker 1: there's like Britney Spears, Marilyn Monroe to a large degree, 754 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 1: even I think like Lil Kim in the nineties to 755 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: some degree. But I'm trying to think about what the 756 00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: difference is for pam Maybe the difference is those people 757 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 1: had careers first to fall back on, before it became 758 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 1: about their bodies, before it became about the physicality or sex. 759 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: And with her, that's what she was from the beginnings. 760 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: She didn't have anything to fall back on. She was 761 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: established as a sex suctor. 762 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 3: Like a one dimensional pin up, so people didn't really 763 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 3: see her as human in many ways, like they don't 764 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 3: see her as a living, breathing human. They just really 765 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 3: see almost this image of her in their minds that 766 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 3: they disassociate with her as a person. And now she's 767 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 3: sort of taking control of her narrative. She's read the Facebook, 768 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 3: she's doing all. 769 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 2: This, She's inserting some of the complexity back in. 770 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: I don't know how much time you're spending on TikTok 771 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: these days, but I do spend a. 772 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:39,439 Speaker 5: Lot of time. 773 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 3: One day. 774 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,400 Speaker 1: There's a whole embarrassing amount hashtag pamcore, like it is 775 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: a full aesthetic. It is bad people are doing, like 776 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: the thin penciled eyebrows, the lip liner, like the tossled 777 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: bun on the top of the head, the bangs like. 778 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 5: This part of like the bimbo core thing. 779 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: It's a little bit of bimbo core. It's a little 780 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 1: bit barbiecore. And Pam is back. But I have to 781 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: tell you this other story actually, which is that when 782 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 1: I was with her at her home in Canada, we 783 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: were sitting in her kitchen. We were baking Christmas cookies. 784 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 5: And all that sounds nice. It's like a celebrity Hallmark. 785 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 2: Movie totally, and actually she's an amazing cook. 786 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: But you know, so I'm recording all of this obviously 787 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: because I was doing this profile of her, and so 788 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: we're hanging out in the kitchen. Her assistant Jonathan was 789 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: near us. He's sort of helping out, and I pull 790 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,839 Speaker 1: out my phone to show her this TikTok filter that 791 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 1: lets you basically put nineties Pam onto your twenty twenty 792 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 1: three human, not pam face. And so Pam was not 793 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 1: on social media, so she'd never seen this, and she 794 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,760 Speaker 1: literally screamed, Oh, that's so funny. 795 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,359 Speaker 5: What the fuck that's insane. 796 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 3: You gotta do this? 797 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 5: What the hell? I mean, my kids know about this. 798 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 5: This is insane. 799 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 6: This is like the extent of mine. 800 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,800 Speaker 5: That's hysterical. That's such a sweet and funny moment. 801 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 3: Like it's really lovely to hear her finally getting to 802 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 3: enjoy some of this attention and actually be able to 803 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 3: laugh at all the absurdity of it. 804 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I was actually thinking about that. It 805 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 1: kind of wraps up the idea for this episode perfectly, 806 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,319 Speaker 1: Like there are certainly parts of Pamela Anderson's life in 807 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: retrospect that she wants to stay in the past, Like 808 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: she doesn't want to be that cartoonish nineties version of herself, 809 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,719 Speaker 1: and she has said that, but at least now she's 810 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: getting to decide, you know, what she wants to embrace 811 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: in what she wants to leave behind, And in some 812 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: ways this suit actually is a happy memory for her. 813 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,280 Speaker 1: Here's what she said when I asked her about it recently. 814 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 4: Just represents the time in my history, one of my 815 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 4: favorite times, just to be so carefree on the beach 816 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 4: working when my sons were just born. Putting on that 817 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,800 Speaker 4: redslim suit just a couple months after I gave birth. 818 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 4: You know, I had to get back in the suit. 819 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 5: I don't know. 820 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 4: It made me feel makes me feel happy to think 821 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 4: about it. It was really a beautiful time in my life. 822 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 5: That really does feel like a perfect place to end it. 823 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:15,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it really does. 824 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 3: So. 825 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 2: I guess that's our show for this week. See you 826 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 2: next week. 827 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,280 Speaker 5: This is in Retrospect. Thanks for listening. 828 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,360 Speaker 3: Is there a cultural moment you can't stop thinking about 829 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,720 Speaker 3: and want us to explore in a future episode. Email 830 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 3: us at inretropod at gmail dot com, or find us 831 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:37,879 Speaker 3: on Instagram at in retropod. 832 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 1: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us 833 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,880 Speaker 1: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you 834 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 1: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram, 835 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:48,320 Speaker 1: which we may or may not delete. 836 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 3: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 837 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 3: and at susib NYC. Also check out Jessica's books Feminist 838 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 3: Fight Club and This Is eighteen. 839 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 1: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcast and the Media. 840 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our 841 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,319 Speaker 1: engineer and sound designer. Sharon Attiya is our researcher and 842 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:09,360 Speaker 1: associate producer. 843 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 3: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our 844 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 3: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norbel. 845 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 5: Our artwork is from Pentagram. 846 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 3: Additional editing help from Mary Doo and Mike Coscarelli. Sound 847 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 3: correction and mastering by Amanda Rose Smith. 848 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,440 Speaker 5: We are your hosts Susie Vannacarum. 849 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 1: And Jessica Bennett. We're also executive producers. For even more, 850 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,280 Speaker 1: check out in retropod dot com. 851 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:35,280 Speaker 2: See you next week.