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Speaker 1: Hey guys, this week's show, we're getting back to our

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Speaker 1: conversation with Brocking Millon. He's a biologist from VYU, and

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Speaker 1: we already went over part one, which is episode forty,

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Speaker 1: So go back and take a listen to that one.

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Speaker 1: We talked about everything from moon phase, the herd, bulls,

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Speaker 1: and anything kind of in between that. Let's dive back

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Speaker 1: in our conversation with Brock and kick off part two

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Speaker 1: and talk about every elk hunter's favorite topic, the rut. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so now we're going to jump into the perceived strength

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Speaker 1: of rut and we just touched on a little bit.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about what affects it. And you

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Speaker 1: in our conversation last week when we were kind of

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Speaker 1: just talking about you know, elk in general and you

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Speaker 1: know unit's doing good versus bad, you mentioned one of

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Speaker 1: the things that the perceived strength of the rut, which

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Speaker 1: wouldn't even say perceived at this point, it would be

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Speaker 1: a real reason why the right is as you say,

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Speaker 1: some years, you know cows coming to you know, only

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Speaker 1: fifty percent of the cows will even come into estress. And

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Speaker 1: if we can touch on that a little bit, which

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Speaker 1: which I think we have on the on the health

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Speaker 1: and then you can kind of spin it what we

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Speaker 1: were just talking about there before we talked about the

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Speaker 1: weather and some of those, uh the other factors with

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Speaker 1: the cows and coming into estrus and herd dynamics.

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Speaker 2: So sure, So we we've been monitoring pregnancy on a

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Speaker 2: whole bunch of units since twenty fifteen, so that's only

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Speaker 2: seven or eight years, but from year to year. So

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Speaker 2: for example, in twenty twenty one, only sixty one percent

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Speaker 2: of the elk that we tested in the whole state

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Speaker 2: were pregnant, whereas in looking at the data right now,

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Speaker 2: whereas in say twenty fifteen, ninety two percent of the

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Speaker 2: elk were pregnant that we tested. And so you would

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Speaker 2: expect that if ninety two percent of the elk are

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Speaker 2: coming into estrs, the rut is going to be much

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Speaker 2: more perceptible or much much stronger than if only sixty

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Speaker 2: percent of the animals were coming into estres. And likewise,

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Speaker 2: if you look across the state in the same year,

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Speaker 2: we have some units that are as low as fifty

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Speaker 2: six percent pregnancy, and in the same year other units

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Speaker 2: are like ninety percent pregnants. So even unit unit or

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Speaker 2: year to year there can be a lot of difference

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Speaker 2: in pregnancy, which I believe is correlated to how many

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Speaker 2: of the females go into estres.

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Speaker 1: Yes, can we I want to jump into estris itself

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Speaker 1: a little bit, a little bit more. Let's say a

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Speaker 1: cow comes into estres. We talk about this a lot,

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Speaker 1: but what does that? What is estris is it? Is

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Speaker 1: it something that happens for four hours, twelve hours, twenty

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Speaker 1: four thirty six? Like, what's the length of it? If

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Speaker 1: if she doesn't get bread during that, will she stay in?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 1: Can we explain a little bit more about sure?

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Speaker 2: So there's four phases of estress. Boy, I'm remembering back

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Speaker 2: by old biology days. But the main one that we're

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Speaker 2: concerned about here is ovulation and so and that's when

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Speaker 2: and an ovulation is when an egg is released from

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Speaker 2: the ovary of the female. And that's what triggers that

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Speaker 2: that estress. And so if if an egg's never released,

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Speaker 2: she will never produce the hormones that the male will

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Speaker 2: will smell and say, oh, she's going to ovulate and

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Speaker 2: it's time to breed with this female so that I

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Speaker 2: can fertilize her egg. And so if they never have

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Speaker 2: those hormones or fifty percent, and some units never have

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Speaker 2: a male. The male comes up and smells and does Nope,

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Speaker 2: she's not going to and so he just leaves her

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Speaker 2: and goes and looks for another female. It is so

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Speaker 2: if if she ovulates and then that egg is fertilized,

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Speaker 2: she produces a hormone to stop the cycle so that

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Speaker 2: it doesn't For example, in humans in the in a

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Speaker 2: menstrual cycle, if the egg is not fertilized, then all

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Speaker 2: of that sloughs out and that's what we call a

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Speaker 2: menstr cycle. Elk don't have a menstrual cycle, they have

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Speaker 2: an extra cycle. But the same principle is if that

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Speaker 2: egg doesn't get fertilized, then it's just expelled and the

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Speaker 2: and the cycle goes into diapause or diastrous or medestres

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Speaker 2: medestres for the for the until the next year, and she.

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Speaker 1: Won't she won't have another egg come through the system.

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Speaker 1: It's it's one and one chance. So that's where some

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Speaker 1: of this idea of the second estrous third estris don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily correlate with the science or the biology of of elk.

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Speaker 2: So so we it's probably out there in really low

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Speaker 2: frequency because on occasion, you'll walk in, you'll run into

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Speaker 2: a spotted calf that can barely walk in late July,

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Speaker 2: or the same thing, you'll run into a spotted deer

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Speaker 2: fond that can barely walk in in late July. But

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Speaker 2: we've now monitored Jason probably about seven hundred, eight hundred

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Speaker 2: litters of deer and I'm trying to think about two

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Speaker 2: hundred with this year, two hundred and forty litters of elk,

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Speaker 2: and we have zero evidence of a second estress in

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Speaker 2: either deer or elk.

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Speaker 1: So what we're seeing is maybe those unhealthy cows or

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Speaker 1: unhealthy deer finally becoming healthy enough that they can go

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Speaker 1: through this process, and it appears to be a second

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Speaker 1: estros or third ester. So you know, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of information or people believing that it's your younger ones

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Speaker 1: weren't quite ready to come into estrus, your yearlings and

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Speaker 1: they come in, you know, or it could be an

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Speaker 1: unhealthy mom that, like you said, raise the cap, she

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Speaker 1: might not come in until maybe later. That appears to

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Speaker 1: be a second wave, but it's just animals coming in

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Speaker 1: later because of health.

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Speaker 2: So life scenario that there's it appears to be a

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Speaker 2: second wave. So with a second wave, you would you

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Speaker 2: would expect, I wish I could draw on a board.

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Speaker 2: You would expect a peak and dip down and then

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Speaker 2: as a smaller peak, right, yep. But we've never seen that.

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Speaker 2: We've never seen anything other than a single peak. It

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Speaker 2: may tell off on the end a little more, but

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Speaker 2: we've never seen a second peak in either deer or elk.

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Speaker 2: Suggesting that it may happen, but we just don't have

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Speaker 2: any evidence that it does happen.

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Speaker 1: Gotcha. And then this one, the egg drops. You know,

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Speaker 1: in the ovulation, is it all scent based or is

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Speaker 1: there communication that that cow will have that comes along

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Speaker 1: with it? Is there any mannerisms or behavior change or

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Speaker 1: is it strictly a scent that that bowld knows exactly

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Speaker 1: what's going on in the time.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's a great question. I don't think anybody knows

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Speaker 2: the answer to that. The more we learn, the more

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Speaker 2: we learn, we don't know.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: In mammals that the other thing about estris versus like

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Speaker 2: a menstro cycle, is it's not as externally visible as

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Speaker 2: some other modes of reproduction. And so the primary way

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Speaker 2: to communicate that ovulation has curved, we think, is ol factory.

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Speaker 2: But absolutely there could be vocal communication that's going on

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Speaker 2: that we don't understand. It hasn't been studied that I

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Speaker 2: know of. My guess is there could be some vocal communication,

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Speaker 2: but we don't know how they communicate vocally. Really.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna this is my our opinion,

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Speaker 1: and not all Elk colors, so I don't want to.

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Speaker 1: But there's a lot of Elk collors out there, and

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Speaker 1: some of what I would consider my calling strategy is

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Speaker 1: we've all heard it out there. You get some of

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Speaker 1: what we call like estros buzzing, you know where they're

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Speaker 1: they're very it's it's almost like an urgency. Or you

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Speaker 1: get this estrous wine versus like your normal cawmew. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's a yeah, they'll they'll whine.

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Speaker 2: Well they're pretty good at that by your mouth. That's

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Speaker 2: we all use that strategy. We all Yeah, I get

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Speaker 2: out saying I'm a cow looking for.

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Speaker 1: You, yeah, yeah, and then or like you know, Steve Chaplin,

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Speaker 1: some of these guys have got some great video of

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Speaker 1: I believe it's a bowl in Arizona or something like

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Speaker 1: lip uh, what we call an estros buzz It's almost

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Speaker 1: like you know, you get we we would almost need

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Speaker 1: to like flutter our lips or our throat to provide

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Speaker 1: that little bit of vibration. And then bulls show up

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Speaker 1: and you're like, well, that was obviously different than just

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Speaker 1: your normal mew that a cow is communicating. Is that

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Speaker 1: correlating with with that ovulation or that that stage of

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Speaker 1: the estress? Who knows. We definitely add that into our strategy.

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Speaker 2: But so so you would the most parsimonious or best

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Speaker 2: explanation is that that it has to be or it

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Speaker 2: wouldn't work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but if it is what we think it is,

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Speaker 1: then why does it only work part of the time still?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: And and so there's there's a little beam ei that

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Speaker 1: doesn't want to say it's for sure what's going on,

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Speaker 1: because hey, last time I did the same thing, and

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Speaker 1: I knew that bull could hear it, and he didn't

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Speaker 1: come running, you know. Yeah. Yeah, So I mean there's

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Speaker 1: there's enough sign you know, or things at point. All right,

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Speaker 1: So one more question about the ovulation she comes into estress.

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Speaker 1: Do we have an idea on the time that that

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Speaker 1: cow specifically has to be bred before the egg drops

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Speaker 1: falls out? Whatever happens there, and turns off that hormone,

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Speaker 1: either she's bread and it turns off, or the time's

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Speaker 1: up and it turns off. Do we have an idea

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Speaker 1: on that time.

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Speaker 2: That's a great question if I don't know the answer,

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Speaker 2: But if I were to guess, I would say that

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Speaker 2: most mammals window of receptivity is a couple of days, okay,

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Speaker 2: And so you have you have to fertilize that egg

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Speaker 2: in the upper fillopian tubes so that it can start

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Speaker 2: to develop and produce the hormone before it gets to

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Speaker 2: the side of implantation to stop the cycle from continuing

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Speaker 2: on so that it can implant. And so from so

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Speaker 2: you may the actual breeding may even happen before ovulation,

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Speaker 2: so that the sperm has a chance to be on

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Speaker 2: its way there before the moment that ovulation happens, so

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Speaker 2: that it's hitting that egg in the upper fillopian tubes,

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Speaker 2: if that makes sense. But most things that I've read

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Speaker 2: say that there's a there's a two to three day

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Speaker 2: window generally in mammals where the egg can be fertilized

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Speaker 2: and implant.

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Speaker 1: Gotcha, Okay, we're gonna roll into the herd dynamics. And

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Speaker 1: if that it's something that I bring up a lot.

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Speaker 1: You know, you got high bowl the col ratios. A

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Speaker 1: lot of times the herds get smaller. A bowl can't

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Speaker 1: maintain that many cows. How does herd dynamics affect affect

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Speaker 1: the rut we already talked about earlier, like you know,

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Speaker 1: to a certain point, like the least amount of bulls

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Speaker 1: on the landscape may be the best for herd health.

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Speaker 1: How does herd dynamics affect strength of the rut? And

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Speaker 1: that herd bulls really's got a lot more competition now,

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Speaker 1: and let's take it even one step further once we

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Speaker 1: get that answered, How does like the hierarchy of if

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Speaker 1: you had, you know, certain mature bowls versus a bunch

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Speaker 1: of raghorns versus you have like a very even mixed

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Speaker 1: do you feel that that now affects the rut and

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Speaker 1: what we perceive as the rut?

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Speaker 2: So those are all great questions. Maybe we'll tackle one

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Speaker 2: about say bull the cow ratios first.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And.

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Speaker 2: It's complex because every hunter wants more bulls on the landscape.

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Speaker 2: Say I have heard the carrying capacity of a thousand

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Speaker 2: animals on a unit. I don't know what it is.

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Speaker 2: Let's just say a thousand simple. If if if I

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Speaker 2: make that sixty bulls, which is roughly a natural ratio,

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Speaker 2: if there was no hunting or anything in the population,

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Speaker 2: that's about what it would be. Even though at birth

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Speaker 2: they're one to one male to female. Males generally are

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Speaker 2: are as teenagers. Males are more risky, So just like

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Speaker 2: in humans, males tend to die as a teenager more

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Speaker 2: than females, so that skews the sex ratio a little bit.

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Speaker 2: And the average male lives a shorter lifespan the average females,

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Speaker 2: so that skews it a little bit. So a natural

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Speaker 2: herd with no hunting would generally be something like forty

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Speaker 2: percent males and sixty percent females. If we we often

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Speaker 2: manipulate that, and we manipulate it both ways. So we

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Speaker 2: may say, for example, you have a unit that the

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Speaker 2: state objective is one thousand animals, and you want to

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Speaker 2: make it a trophy unit, so you let bulls get old,

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Speaker 2: and you start putting more and more bulls on the landscape.

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Speaker 2: The only way you can maintain a thousand is you

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Speaker 2: issue cow tags, and so you go out and you

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Speaker 2: harvest a bunch of cows, and maybe now it's fifty

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Speaker 2: to fifty, or it's even sixty percent bulls forty percent

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Speaker 2: cows because you're mandated by a lot of manage to

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Speaker 2: a thousand, but you want more old bulls in the population.

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Speaker 2: Doing that really limits the future production. I wouldn't say

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Speaker 2: health of the herd, but production of the herd, meaning

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Speaker 2: that if I've only got forty percent cows out there

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Speaker 2: and only eighty percent of them were given pregnant, the

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Speaker 2: productivity of this herd is much lower than if I

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Speaker 2: have eighty percent cows and eighty percent of them are

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Speaker 2: getting pregnant. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 1: It does, But I'm gonna I'm not questioning you, I'm

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Speaker 1: questioning the idea that if if this area can only

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Speaker 1: carry a thousand elk, regardless, do can we is the

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Speaker 1: way to optimize that? As a hunter or you know

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Speaker 1: somebody that's looking at hunting those thousand animals? Does it

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Speaker 1: make sense to keep that balance at fifty to fifty

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Speaker 1: or sixty forty bowld a cow because it can only

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Speaker 1: hold a thousand milk? Anyways, what good does it do

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Speaker 1: to have us having more cows that then put more

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Speaker 1: elk on the landscape? And you know, did that make

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Speaker 1: any sense?

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Speaker 2: Like is there. Absolutely, it does so because any surplus

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Speaker 2: can either be hunted or it's going to die on

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Speaker 2: its own. And so the more surplus we have, the

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Speaker 2: more hunting opportunity we have.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so, but we've talked about herd health, which

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Speaker 1: I think is important. We shouldn't just overlook that. You're

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Speaker 1: saying the herd would potentially be healthier if we only

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Speaker 1: had thirty percent bulls and seventy percent cows, But then

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Speaker 1: we would have to issue more cow tags every year

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Speaker 1: to keep that herd at a thousand, because we don't

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Speaker 1: want the herd health to go down. So it would

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Speaker 1: be you're exchanging bulltags now for cow tag opportunities.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you are, So you're but the potential for opportunity,

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Speaker 2: so yes, for a trophy bull hunter that is that's

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Speaker 2: probably not the best strategy, But for the opportunity to

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Speaker 2: hunt elk, it's the best strategy. If that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 2: And so there's a there's a I mean, we deal

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Speaker 2: with this in you to all the time. I'm on

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Speaker 2: one of the regional advisory councils where we where we

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Speaker 2: make recommendations to our wildlife boarder, which is similar to

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Speaker 2: your game commission yep, And this is the constant battle.

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Speaker 2: Do we hunt big bulls or do we provide opportunity

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Speaker 2: to hunt elk?

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Speaker 1: Uh? Yeah, I'm trying to phrase and put together my

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Speaker 1: next question. So, without throwing agencies under the bus, if

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Speaker 1: a unit is under under carrying capacity or in poor health,

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Speaker 1: what you're telling, what I'm hearing from you, is that

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Speaker 1: we should not be killing cows because that's the way

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Speaker 1: to obviously get the numbers up. We could live with

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Speaker 1: less elk. If if trophy bowl quality wasn't the number

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Speaker 1: one priority in that unit and we just needed to

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Speaker 1: get our elk back up to carrying capacity, we would

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Speaker 1: want to keep cows on the landscape and issue less

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Speaker 1: cow tags or no cow tags until we met those objectives. Correct.

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Speaker 1: I mean, seems to make sense from a biology standpoint

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Speaker 1: that cows produce, and you know bulls can produce multiple

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Speaker 1: or reproduce with multiple cows. That seems like the strategy

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Speaker 1: to move forward.

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Speaker 2: Sure.

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Speaker 1: Maybe maybe.

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Speaker 2: So the reason I'm saying maybe is how do you

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Speaker 2: know the population is not at carrying capacity or exceeded

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Speaker 2: carrying capacity? Because the biologist of a region says, based

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Speaker 2: on everything I know, we're going to put our population

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Speaker 2: objective on this unit at fifty seven hundred animals, And

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Speaker 2: now we assume that that fifty seven hundred animals is

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Speaker 2: what carrying capacity is, where maybe it doesn't have any

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Speaker 2: biological basis at all. So the only way to know

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Speaker 2: carrying capacity is to be monitoring the nutritional condition of

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Speaker 2: those animals, and very few agencies, and even in agencies

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Speaker 2: that do, they don't monitor very many populations to know

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Speaker 2: the nutritional condition of the population. So the only thing

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Speaker 2: we can really look at to start to hint at

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Speaker 2: nutritional condition is productivity, how many calves per hundred cows

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Speaker 2: kind of thing, and what survival is, stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: And I have to imagine that carrying capacity for any

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Speaker 1: individual unit is it's variable right in my mind, knowing

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Speaker 1: that vegetation changes you mentioned book clips earlier, which maybe

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Speaker 1: an anomaly, But if these units vegetation state changes from

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Speaker 1: year to year, or you know, some of these certain

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Speaker 1: units right now that are going through droughts and we're

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Speaker 1: just not not getting the vegetation that it's historically had,

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Speaker 1: these things change, does that carrying capacity obviously moves, And

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Speaker 1: so it is the only real way to test this

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Speaker 1: is to like, all right, nobody hunt, nobody mess with

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Speaker 1: the predator. You know, I don't know what the right

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Speaker 1: answer is or do you just you would have to

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Speaker 1: sit back and observe a unit almost untouched, no hunting pressure,

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Speaker 1: and just see, like, all right, we you know, went

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Speaker 1: from four thousand to five thousand, the herd started to

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Speaker 1: get unhealthy. They dropped themselves back down to forty five hundred.

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Speaker 1: So you know, maybe that's the right answer is I

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Speaker 1: guess that would be the only way to ever tell.

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Speaker 1: And then even from that, it would be potentially variable

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Speaker 1: year to year, if the vegetation changes, or snowpacks different,

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Speaker 1: or drought hits it. It would be a complex calculation

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Speaker 1: to figure out what that right number is.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and that's the number that biologists are always chasing,

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Speaker 2: and that's the number that the public wants to know.

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Speaker 2: So you just hit the nail, in my opinion, right

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Speaker 2: on the head. That number is almost impossible to know,

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Speaker 2: and it changes from year to year. But that's the

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Speaker 2: number that everybody wants, yep, and so, and I don't

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Speaker 2: think the answer is don't hunt them, especially like in

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Speaker 2: a drought. You would expect that in a drought, people say, oh,

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Speaker 2: we've had such a bad drought, we need to not

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Speaker 2: hunt them. The population is really hurting. But to me biologically,

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Speaker 2: if I have a severe drought, I want to remove

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Speaker 2: some mouse from the landscape so there is plenty of

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Speaker 2: food for the ones that are left there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, probably the same conversations people can be having. I

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Speaker 1: mean in your home state of Utah and the northwest

345
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Speaker 1: corner of Wyoming that just got hammered this year with

346
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Speaker 1: two hundred percent plus no packs. Is winter different than

347
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Speaker 1: drought or would you maybe even have the same recommendation

348
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Speaker 1: let's free up some or did the winner do the

349
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Speaker 1: damage and it reduced the population? For the mouses are

350
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Speaker 1: still on the ground, So.

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Speaker 2: I think the winner did the damage, so not the damage.

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Speaker 2: I think this winner was extreme, and so our extreme

353
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Speaker 2: northwest wasn't horrible. We have places in this state that

354
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Speaker 2: was not good, that were not good. The backside of

355
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Speaker 2: the Los Atch Front was not good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, your northeast corner.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well not even the cash unit up there. Yes,

358
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Speaker 2: up on the extreme northeast and rich County did not

359
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Speaker 2: do well. But the rest of the cash unit was

360
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Speaker 2: not as bad as everybody. It wasn't as bad as

361
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Speaker 2: Wyoming but even this year, Jason our Elk heard, we've

362
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Speaker 2: we've had about eighty nine percent survival on the ones

363
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Speaker 2: that we have colored. So, I mean, winter doesn't affect

364
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,920
Speaker 2: elk like it affects deer.

365
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Speaker 1: Yep or or the antelope. It seemed like they had

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Speaker 1: a rough winner as well.

367
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Speaker 2: So yeah, well antelope for sure, because antelope don't store

368
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Speaker 2: fat really yeah, and so they run out early in

369
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Speaker 2: the winter and then they start burning muscle, and muscle

370
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Speaker 2: does not last as long as fat, and so if

371
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Speaker 2: the winter's long and severe, it's decimating the antelope or

372
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Speaker 2: prong horn. Elk generally have enough energetic inertia because of

373
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Speaker 2: their body size that winter is not that big of

374
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Speaker 2: a deal, and elk are long lived, so they they

375
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Speaker 2: don't Drought doesn't really affect an individual either. But what

376
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Speaker 2: it does do is is it does affect the condition

377
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 2: that animal can get to and the likelihood that it

378
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 2: goes into estrus. And so the productivity of the herd

379
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 2: may go down in a drought condition. But for elk,

380
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Speaker 2: survival is still pretty high. I mean, we've been doing

381
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Speaker 2: it a lot of years now. I'm just trying to

382
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:20,919
Speaker 2: pull up the data so I can tell you, but

383
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Speaker 2: generally adult survival is between ninety two and ninety five

384
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Speaker 2: percent every years.

385
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Speaker 1: That's pretty dang good. Yeah, especially in comparison to dear

386
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Speaker 1: in antelope, which you know obviously lower.

387
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Speaker 2: Right, And I mean, our data are clear. The only

388
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Speaker 2: thing that really kills an adult elk is lead or broadheads,

389
00:22:43,240 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 2: I guess, but they don't kill very many.

390
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna try to wrap this next question. I'm

391
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Speaker 1: looking at what I got here and perceive strength of

392
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Speaker 1: the rut, which I think for a lot of hunters

393
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,080
Speaker 1: that head out correlates with bugling. So I kind of

394
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 1: had a couple different questions here. One of these came

395
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Speaker 1: from my my marketing manager, Dirk. I hunt with a lot.

396
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 1: It was it was kind of a and we touched

397
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Speaker 1: on a little bit earlier. But is there any rhyme

398
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: or reason the why the bulls bugle so hard one

399
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 1: day and the next day they don't necessarily bugle as much?

400
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,719
Speaker 1: You know, even let's say on you know, if we

401
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 1: if we held whether constant we held you know, we're

402
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 1: in the peak of the rut or in that that

403
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 1: general time, is there a reason why would it be?

404
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 1: Those like we talked earlier, just none of those cows

405
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Speaker 1: are stuck in that ovulation period or there are other

406
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 1: bulls pestering them, Like, what's the reasons why we seem

407
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 1: to get like somebody flipping light switches off and on

408
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 1: on us out there.

409
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 2: I have no idea, Jason, that that's that would be

410
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 2: my guess if I was gonna guess, say, for example,

411
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 2: yesterday we had five calves born and we caught all

412
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,160
Speaker 2: five of them. Of the animals that we have colored today,

413
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 2: so far, we've had one warning, meaning that so far

414
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 2: one calf has been born today. And my guess is

415
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 2: the same thing is happening during the rut and ovulation

416
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 2: that some days several cows are coming in are ovulating,

417
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 2: and other days you only have a few of the

418
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,400
Speaker 2: cows that are ovulating. But I don't know if that's

419
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 2: true or not. I would like to know the answer,

420
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 2: because we have some units where bulls seldom bugle anymore,

421
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 2: and other units where they're going off all the time,

422
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 2: and they've just learned to not bugle as much in

423
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 2: some units, I think, I don't know.

424
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Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that was where I was going to roll

425
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,679
Speaker 1: into the next one. If there's any data, and it

426
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 1: sounds like we don't necessarily know, like are some bowls

427
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,640
Speaker 1: genetically disposed of bugling versus non You know, we find

428
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,199
Speaker 1: the same thing in certain areas, elk just won't bugle

429
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 1: even though we see them, we know they're there, they're

430
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: running cows, they are pushing them, They're just not as

431
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 1: vocal versus you can go to other areas where you know,

432
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 1: you can't barely get the things to be quiet at

433
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: times when when you know things are, things are going

434
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 1: hot and heavy. So we may we might not know

435
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: if they're you know, if they're genetically disposed to bugling

436
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: more or not, or if it's just the way they

437
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: were raised or what they they know.

438
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 2: So and I don't know the answer, Jason, I'm an

439
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,199
Speaker 2: elk hunter just like you, and I don't know the

440
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 2: biological explanation maybeing out in the field. The observation I've

441
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 2: seen is in areas where they get a lot of pressure,

442
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 2: they're not nearly as loud as when are areas that

443
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,719
Speaker 2: are hard to get to where they don't get very

444
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:41,400
Speaker 2: much pressure.

445
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I in my opinion, which is just my opinion.

446
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 1: When they correlate, you know, elk making sounds or elk

447
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 1: like sounds. I'll leave it at that, and they they

448
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 1: correlate that with seeing human presence at the location of

449
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 1: that sound. Getting winded by that sound starts to they're

450
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 1: they're not necessarily dumb creatures. And I don't know what

451
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 1: their memory necessarily is, But do they remember that encounter?

452
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: Are they more hesitant to come into something? You know?

453
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 1: And in my opinion, the way that the you know,

454
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: bugling and caw calling works, it's it's the bull bugles.

455
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 1: He's obviously louder than a cow you know, cal calling.

456
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: It's to announce his presence, and then any cows that

457
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: want him to breathe them will come join his herd.

458
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: Right and and in the woods we're trying to reverse

459
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: out a little bit. And maybe maybe he's not willing

460
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: to leave his herd to go find this cow, you

461
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 1: know again, because he's been fooled or he's he's expected danger.

462
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 1: But I also don't I don't know if you know,

463
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 1: like what an elk's memory even isn't.

464
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 2: I don't know what the memory is. But definitely they're

465
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 2: capable of learning. The The reason I say that that

466
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 2: they're capable of learning, we did a study here where

467
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 2: we looked at distribution of elk on the landscape related

468
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 2: to hunting season, and for that study, on the day

469
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 2: before the opening of the rifle hunt, like sixty two

470
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 2: or sixty three percent of the elk in our study

471
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 2: area we're on public land. And on the day the

472
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 2: very next day, the opening day of the rifle hunt,

473
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 2: thirty one percent of the elk we're on public land.

474
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 2: A full forty percent of the herd had jumped the

475
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 2: fence onto private land in one day.

476
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: Just from pressure.

477
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 2: And so to me, they they understand pressure and they

478
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,640
Speaker 2: are very willing to move to avoid pressure.

479
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, that that's kind of what I what I was

480
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: thinking in an alliance with what I saw out in

481
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: the field. Last question on strength of the rut and

482
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: how this affects it, And this might be in the

483
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 1: wrong spot, but what's your opinion on predators? You know,

484
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: we deal with a lot of wolves up up in

485
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 1: the northern you know States and the lak can you know,

486
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: being it seems like wolves in an area can definitely

487
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: shut down their vocalizations. Is there any studies on the

488
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 1: rut and how it could be affected by alpha predators?

489
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 2: Not that I know of, And definitely wolves are affecting

490
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 2: every part of their behavior. I mean, it's clear from

491
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 2: the research that's been done that just the presence of

492
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 2: wolves can influence the stress level of the animal and

493
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 2: can influence the likelihood that an animal ovulates. We don't

494
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 2: have wolves in any of our populations that I study,

495
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 2: but the literature's clear that wolves have an effect.

496
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, just from my observations. Why I'm out

497
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: in the field hunting and a spot that I hunt Idaho,

498
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: We're up on a high spot and we can listen

499
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: and to about three different drainages, and if the wolves

500
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: show up to that same drainage, we hunted throughout the

501
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,239
Speaker 1: day and maybe had good success or good bugling, and

502
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: kind of nowhere they We can't hardly get those things

503
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: to talk in the morning versus they're typically still there.

504
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: They won't change these big basins and drainages that they're

505
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: comfortable in. They just won't talk. The next day. You

506
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: wake up the next morning or that night when you're

507
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: eating dinner, the wolves move to a different drainage. You

508
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: go back in there. The next day they're back to going.

509
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: And once again, is it attributed to some bulls like

510
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: the bugle or you know, bugle heavy one day not

511
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: the other. Or in this case, it's like they obviously

512
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: talked less or not at all because of the presence

513
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: of alpha you know, alpha predators in that drainage with them.

514
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: And like I said, I don't have any scientific it's

515
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: just observation, but it seems to have a very strong

516
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: correlation with wolves in area. They do talk less.

517
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 2: So and I don't know the answer, but biologically the

518
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: oldest female in the group is probably the one that's

519
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 2: driving what the group is doing, and she is also

520
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 2: the one that is most susceptible to wolves. So if

521
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 2: you can control wolf populations, I think they have a

522
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 2: positive effect on elk, But if you can't, I think

523
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 2: they are decimating to elk.

524
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so so you're just saying that natural predation

525
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: is that sometimes those you know, for lack of a

526
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: better term, those old dry cows need to be taken

527
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: out maybe anyways to reduce some of that. You know,

528
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: if you are going to take cows out, she's the

529
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: right one, but they maybe overdo it a little bit

530
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: and take too many.

531
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 2: Right, and they're generally not dry. What happens is when

532
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 2: elk that that was the idea that was in the

533
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 2: literature is that as an elk gets to be say thirteen,

534
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 2: fourteen or fifteen, she becomes non reproductive and she's just

535
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 2: eating resources that otherwise other elk could have to raise calves.

536
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 2: But it turns out that that elk are reproductive their

537
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 2: entire life. Even if they live to be thirty, they're

538
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 2: still reproductive. But as they get old, they tend to

539
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 2: be they tend to skip years, so they're more likely

540
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 2: to be pregnant every other year as they get old.

541
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: Gotcha, Okay, Yeah, like I said, predators, we might not

542
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: know exactly how it affects, but that that uh, that's

543
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: just what we've we've seen and definitely has an effect.

544
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 2: Right, So if you could remove that old cow, you're

545
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 2: increasing the productivity of the herd because now you have

546
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 2: a greater majority of the herd are young cows that

547
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 2: are breeding every year.

548
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm we could jump into it. I'm gonna touch

549
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: on it real quick. Around home, when caw tags are given,

550
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: you hear of you know, big groups of people that

551
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: have cow tags and their goal is to always you know,

552
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: shoot the lead cow because then the herd becomes unable

553
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 1: to protect themselves. Is that is that true? Or is

554
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: the second in command, Like, is that pecking order already

555
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: figured out and that second cow has followed the lead

556
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 1: cow around for multiple years, it's already got it figured out.

557
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: Or is there is there a true disruption to the

558
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: herd when that lead cow gets shot for a short

559
00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:59,959
Speaker 1: period of time where they've got to like refigure them

560
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: themselves out and who's in control and where they're going

561
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: for safety.

562
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 2: I have no idea, and I don't think anybody does. Biologically, however,

563
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 2: in every ungulate I studied bison for part of my PhD.

564
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 2: In every ungulate, the dominance hierarchy is pretty clear. We

565
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 2: know which one's boss, and we know which one's in

566
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 2: second place, and we know which one's in third place,

567
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 2: and the whole herd knows that. Now they may be

568
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 2: used to following the lead animal and she if she leaves,

569
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 2: they don't may not know what to do temporarily. I

570
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 2: don't know the answer to that. I'm fine with people

571
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 2: taking the lead animal because that's generally the oldest one

572
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 2: in the group. It's not the one I want.

573
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: Yep, yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay. This kind of rolls in

574
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: the perceived strength of the rut. But let's talk a

575
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: little bit about the rut during night. And one of

576
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: the strategies some people tell me we shouldn't even talk

577
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: about is locating elk at night. They're more talkative, they

578
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: seem to be going better, temperatures are cooling. Is there

579
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: any reason or or what is the reason that the

580
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: rut seems to always go stronger through through you know,

581
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: the nighttime than it is during the day. Is it temperatures?

582
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: Is it is a biological reason? Can you well elaborating them?

583
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 2: I think it's both. I think that that elk have

584
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 2: evolved to be crepuscular or nocturnal, uh, to avoid predators.

585
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 2: But I do think they're a large bodied animal and

586
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 2: they have a thick coat and heat is really tough

587
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 2: on them. And and I think it's more about temperature

588
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 2: in adult elk, it's more about temperature than it is

589
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 2: avoiding predators.

590
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, that that makes sense. I mean, you there's been

591
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 1: times where we've been in areas hunting all day, heard

592
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: a few beagles go back at night and the place

593
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: is just on fire with multiple bulls you didn't hear

594
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 1: throughout the day. And it just seems, in my opinion,

595
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: you know, those bulls seem to almost get I'm gonna

596
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: I'm not claiming to be a biologist here with my statement,

597
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 1: but in the middle of the day, if they're running

598
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: hard in the morning, the day heats up, it almost

599
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 1: like they get a little bit sick or a little

600
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: bit overheated. You know, they go bed down a lot

601
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 1: of times that bowl will bet has heard down and

602
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: then he'll go maybe visit a wallow by himself real

603
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: quick once he's got, you know, all this housekeeping done.

604
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,919
Speaker 1: It just seems like they shut down in the middle

605
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 1: of the day during that heat and then almost set

606
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 1: your clock to it. As wherever they're betting, when the

607
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: sun gets low enough, the shade hits it, they're cool enough,

608
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,439
Speaker 1: they pop back up and they're right back to doing

609
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: their thing. You know, maybe it's a little bit later,

610
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: but they're they're now back to running. Where they take

611
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: that midday off which seems to correlate with temperature and

612
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 1: maybe nothing else.

613
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:55,280
Speaker 2: And the reason I think, again, I haven't read anything

614
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 2: biological on it, but the reason I think what you're

615
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 2: saying makes more sense is because they're there's a lot

616
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 2: of thick cover and they when they go to bed down.

617
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 2: They they generally don't go to thick cover that's on

618
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 2: south facing or exposed slopes. They go to north dark timber,

619
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 2: north facing slopes that are dark timber where it's greatest

620
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 2: likelihood of being cool to bed down and spend the day.

621
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 2: To me, that's more thermal regulation than it is protection.

622
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: Yep, yep, And yeah, this is just I'm thrown in

623
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 1: a bonus observation. They've also got the uncanny ability wherever

624
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 1: they are going to bed, they've figured out that the

625
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: wind swirls there all day long, during through the middle

626
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 1: of the day. I I mean, people can call them

627
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: a not very smart animal, but you know meal deer alike,

628
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: Like those things will go bed in a situation where

629
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: you're like, there's zero ways for me to approach without

630
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: blowing them out of here. You know. Yeah, it's cool,

631
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: it's you know, but it's like, how the heck did

632
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: you guys find this spot where there's no way the

633
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: wind ever sits still?

634
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 2: You can see all the way and direction and you

635
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 2: can smell all the way in the other yep.

636
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, they watch their backtrack or you know, they they

637
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: they're in these little pockets that swirl off the edges,

638
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: which is just enough and just like just frustrating as all. Heck,

639
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: but well, one of the things we talked last week

640
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: Brock when we were kind of getting into it, and

641
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: one of them, like one thing that I'm very interested

642
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 1: in is kind of that adjacent units one doing well

643
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: versus one doing you know, maybe subpar and struggling a

644
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 1: little bit, but then not even being able to say

645
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: that it's similar habitat and it might not be that

646
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 1: you know, it's habitat, it might not be wintering ground,

647
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: it might not be predators. We go into a little

648
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 1: bit what we were talking about last week on on you know,

649
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: trying to and one of the what I'm assuming is

650
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,879
Speaker 1: very very difficult for biologists and people that are trying

651
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 1: to manage these animals to figure out is how you

652
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: how biologists look at these units, how you figure out

653
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 1: you know, trends, and then trying to figure out what

654
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 1: the fixes are and how they're different from you know,

655
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: unit unit, even if they're adjacent.

656
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 2: Right, So it's complex, and I think this is state

657
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 2: by state specific because each state manages their ELK differently.

658
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 2: In Utah, on our on our trophy area or quality units,

659
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: we manage to an age objective, So we want the

660
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,720
Speaker 2: average bowl harvested to be seven years old or something

661
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 2: like that. That's very different than average than managing to

662
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 2: a bull the cow ratio, which we do not do,

663
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 2: and a lot of states do do that.

664
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 1: So I have a dumb question for you, Brock, and

665
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: I think I know the answer, but I want to ask. So,

666
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: when you're managing to an age objective you got are

667
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,399
Speaker 1: you are you just looking what's on the ground? Are

668
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,399
Speaker 1: you assuming if like you guys got good data, eighty

669
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: percent of the cows were fertile, eighty percent of the

670
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: cabs hit the ground, we assume those are forty forty.

671
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: We're going to allow x amount of bulls to be

672
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: taken over the years. This should get you know, and

673
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: so you just limit it by tags knowing that a

674
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 1: certain amount should get to that age, or you guys

675
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 1: doing a little bit of both.

676
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 2: So with they're doing a little bit of neither. So

677
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 2: what they what they do is in this state, it's

678
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 2: I don't think it's mandatory, but it's becoming mandatory. But

679
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 2: it's recommended that everybody that harvests the bull sends in

680
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 2: a tooth an incisor, and I think we get about

681
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 2: eighty percent return, and we age every one of those animals,

682
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 2: and so we know the age of the animals being harvested.

683
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 2: So when we manage for our age objective, we want

684
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 2: the average age of a bull harvested to be six

685
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 2: years old. If those ages come back on average five

686
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 2: years old, this state cuts tags. They're assuming because until

687
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 2: this year, our rifle hunt has been right on top

688
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 2: of the rut, and so they're assuming that the people

689
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 2: are taking the biggest and this is a misconception oldest

690
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 2: bool because the biggest is not the oldest for sure,

691
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 2: And so they cut tags, saying, well, we need the

692
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 2: average bull on this unit to be older, and then

693
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 2: they reevaluate next year. Sure enough, this year at averages six,

694
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 2: so we're going to keep tags here, and then if

695
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 2: next year it goes up to seven, then they add

696
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 2: more tags. And that's how they do it in this state. Man.

697
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: I don't want to dig into the decision making, but

698
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: there's a lot of other factor. I mean, some of

699
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 1: your premium units, I mean they're they're pretty reserved on

700
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 1: their tag numbers, right, And what happened what happened if

701
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 1: you get a bunch of you know, mountain men that

702
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: have hunted their whole lives always found success one year,

703
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: and then you not saying age always plays and it

704
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 1: you get some out of shape people that don't want

705
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 1: to leave the road, and it's very contrasting but doesn't

706
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: really tell the story. But you're saying, there's no other

707
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: data that goes into that aside from tooth aging three teeth.

708
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 2: So that's the primary data that go into those management

709
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 2: making decisions. Having said that, here's the problem. We just

710
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 2: changed the whole system in Utah. We got rid of

711
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 2: the old age class because it turns out the data

712
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 2: are pretty clear. He said, this is kind of off

713
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 2: topic of where you were going, but the data are

714
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 2: pretty clear. The average bull reaches its maximum size of

715
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 2: antler at age seven, and it's about ninety five percent

716
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 2: that size at age six when and this is true

717
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 2: for deer two, not six and seven, but dere it's

718
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 2: four and five. But everybody, I hear people say all

719
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 2: the time, if you just give that animal one more year,

720
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 2: just think what it would be. Generally, that's not true. Generally,

721
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 2: the animal is as big as it's going to be

722
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 2: if it's at least seven years old. And so if say,

723
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 2: for example, a bull had the potential of four hundred inches,

724
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 2: it would be ninety five percent of that. So what

725
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 2: is that that's two hundred That would be three hundred

726
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 2: three eighty bowl at age six. It gets killed at

727
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 2: age six because nobody's going to pass a three eighty bull.

728
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 2: And but the average bull, this may be surprising, the

729
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 2: average bull on the landscape at age seven is three

730
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 2: hundred and nineteen inches. And that's based on measuring about

731
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 2: five thousand bulls. That's the average potential of a bull

732
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:42,280
Speaker 2: three hundred and nineteen inches. And so a three eighty

733
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 2: bowl is an anomaly, or a four hundred inch bull

734
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,359
Speaker 2: is an anomaly. And so if you go to one

735
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 2: of these premium limited entry units and you say I'm

736
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 2: holding out for a three eighty, you're shooting probably going

737
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 2: to shoot a five or six year old bull if

738
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 2: you actually do that, and because and you're going to

739
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 2: let the eight, nine, ten year old that's three twenty

740
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 2: that's the average bull survive. And so you're squandering, in

741
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 2: my opinion, you're squandering a lot of mature old bulls

742
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 2: because you can be selective and harvest the younger ones

743
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 2: that have more but greater potential for antler development.

744
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 1: Yep, that makes a ton of sense.

745
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 2: And in fact, we have a unit in Utah, the

746
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:31,240
Speaker 2: Beaver Unit, where they almost doubled the numbers of tags

747
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 2: on the unit and the average age of the harvested

748
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 2: bull dramatically increased.

749
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, because people were now willing to take those three

750
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 1: eighteen or three nineteen, you know, top potential bulls out

751
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: of the herd, because there were more tags on the ground.

752
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 2: That's right. They were shooting a three twenty that was

753
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 2: eleven years old.

754
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's I mean, it's just tough to manage, right.

755
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: I mean we see the same thing on deer where

756
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 1: everybody wants a four point with deep forks, but you

757
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: take that thing two years you know, he's three and

758
00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 1: a half or four and a half, and don't let

759
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 1: him get to five or six. And it's like, man,

760
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: at some point, and I don't know how you ever

761
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: manage it or how you get it through people's heads. Yeah,

762
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 1: it may score better, but can't we shoot the big

763
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 1: you know, one hundred and forty and three point that's

764
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: seven years old? Or you know, it's like, I just

765
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 1: we can't And this is where you have to walk

766
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: a fine line. Everybody's out there for their own reason, right,

767
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 1: and so you don't want to feel like you're dictating

768
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 1: what's going on there to some extent. But yeah, I

769
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: think horn size versus age and the disconnect there is

770
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: always going to be like one of the you know, uh,

771
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: and I guess I have to use the word trophy

772
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: hunter's dilemma is do you want to kill the Nobody

773
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 1: necessarily cares that you killed an eleven year old bowl

774
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,320
Speaker 1: because we don't talk about, Hey, my your bowl was seven,

775
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,359
Speaker 1: mine was eleven. We talk about your bowl was three eighty,

776
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: mine was four hundred.

777
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 2: Right, that's to me, that's the problem. So just like

778
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 2: yel the average gear only gets to the upper one sixties.

779
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 2: That's the average buck, no matter how old they are,

780
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 2: and so everybody's at all You let that get one

781
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 2: more year, it would be a one eighty. Nope, it wouldn't.

782
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 2: It would be a one sixty. I'm not saying that

783
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 2: elk and deer can't explode from one year to an

784
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 2: ax and add thirty inches. Yeah, but on average, for

785
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 2: everyone that adds thirty inches from seven to eight, one

786
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 2: loses thirty inches from seven to eight.

787
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: Yep. And from what I've seen, the biggest determined is

788
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: not their genetic potential. It's whether you maybe you had

789
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: a drought one year and they were able to get

790
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: some good green the next year and live up to

791
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 1: their potential versus they didn't just put on You know,

792
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 1: if you have great years back to back, they're not

793
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 1: going to necessarily put on twenty more inches.

794
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,760
Speaker 2: So actually this is really cool. And again it's another

795
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:38,839
Speaker 2: topic of elk, but I love this topic because we've

796
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 2: studied a lot, and that is that the current year's

797
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 2: climatic conditions. So this the green up right now that

798
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 2: the elker eating while they're growing, accounts for about ten

799
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 2: percent of their antler development. So in a good year,

800
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 2: I can be a three to sixty bowl, and in

801
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 2: an average or a poor year, I'll be a three

802
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 2: thirty bowl. It's just based on what I'm meeting this year.

803
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 1: Yep, yep.

804
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,839
Speaker 2: The second factor that has the same exact effect is

805
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 2: how healthy mom was when that bull was in Uterus

806
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 2: seven years ago.

807
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 1: Oh, I've I was made very very aware of this.

808
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 1: Ranella put me in touch with Kevin Monteeth out of

809
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 1: Ye and I couldn't wrap my head around this. And

810
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: I've I've finally come around to it because I was,

811
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,280
Speaker 1: I was coming up with all sorts of extreme scenarios

812
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:30,800
Speaker 1: if I took these little meal deer we have in

813
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,720
Speaker 1: Washington and put them on the pont Sigaunt and trapped

814
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: him in a cage with you know, three generations down

815
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: the road. And He's like, oh, yeah, they'd be giants.

816
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 1: And I just couldn't wrap my head around it, you know,

817
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 1: based on nutrition and mother's health and whatnot. So yeah,

818
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 1: it's still crazy to me that a lot of their

819
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: potential happens why they're you know, in the and you know,

820
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 1: in their mom's belly.

821
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 2: So yeah, Kevin and I do a lot of similar

822
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 2: research and and he's awesome, and and that's what it is.

823
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 2: Mother's nutrition in deer. An elk, the effect of mother

824
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 2: is not as great and dear as it is an elk.

825
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 2: The effective mother is really significant in elk. And this

826
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 2: is the other reason you don't want populations to get

827
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:19,280
Speaker 2: to a density where it's effelt, where it's affecting condition

828
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 2: of the average animal on the landscape, because if you

829
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 2: let it get to that population density, the average potential

830
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 2: for any bull on the landscape is reduced.

831
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: Yep.

832
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 2: So I hear people say stuff all the time, like

833
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 2: this unit has gone in the tank. The elk on

834
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 2: this unit are not near as good. The division's killing

835
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 2: too many elk, where the real answer may be they're

836
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 2: actually killing too few, and there's now too many mouths

837
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 2: on the landscape. Moms aren't in as good a condition,

838
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 2: and they're throwing calves that just don't have the potential

839
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 2: that they did ten years ago when there were only

840
00:46:55,280 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 2: half as many elk on the landscape.

841
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make a correlation here, which to me is

842
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: more apparent is fishing. We've all been to these historic

843
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: lakes where people talk about the eight to ten pound

844
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 1: rainbows they caught in some of our lakes here, And

845
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: now you go to these lakes and you can't catch

846
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 1: anything bigger than a pound, and they're like, well, guess

847
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 1: what we reduced the limits. We used to be able

848
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 1: to catch ten fish a day out of here. Now

849
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: we can catch two fish a day, which now isn't

850
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 1: enough reason to even drive, you know, forty five minutes

851
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: up the mountain to go fish it. And it's one

852
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 1: of those things where just the overpopulation has now reduced

853
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: the size because there's less food, you know. So it's

854
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 1: like we see this all the time where I live

855
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 1: in these high lakes. Is you know, if we cut

856
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 1: a lot more fish out of here, the fish that

857
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:55,800
Speaker 1: we're here would be a whole lot bigger and healthier.

858
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: But yeah, since we can't, now we've got yeah, we've

859
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 1: got a whole fish, but nobody fishes anymore, so no

860
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 1: fish are being taken out, and now we don't have

861
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 1: anything bigger than a you know, a one pound rainbow.

862
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,919
Speaker 1: And yeah, it sounds like it's very similar with elk

863
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: can I So I kind of pose this question to

864
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 1: Kevin when I talked to him through some emails, so

865
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: on hard is this where like because winners can be

866
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:24,800
Speaker 1: very drastic. I'm trying to figure out how to phrase

867
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: this question. You can have one winner like you know,

868
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,839
Speaker 1: very mild, great green up, you know, or very easy winner,

869
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 1: and then you have winter like this where in some

870
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,839
Speaker 1: area is very very tough. Right that that calf that's

871
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 1: one year apart from its sibling, half brother or it

872
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 1: could be full brother, whatever is going to be have

873
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 1: the potential. Let's say their dad the bowl was the

874
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 1: same size. So the genetic potential isn't there, but you

875
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,320
Speaker 1: could have a potent, a genetic potential up to twenty

876
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: percent different just because one year that same mom had

877
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:00,280
Speaker 1: to get through some rough winter while you were in

878
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 1: the in the belly, the other calf just had a heyday.

879
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 1: Why she was eating whatever she wanted, stayed fat and healthy.

880
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 1: But yet now that those bulls are on the landscape,

881
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, regardless they got a year difference, that

882
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 1: one bull's now going to have fifty inch you know,

883
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,839
Speaker 1: talking in horn size, have the potential to be fifty

884
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: inches bigger.

885
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 2: Absolutely, So it's not a genetic potential that's completely nutrition based.

886
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 2: The two bulls are basically the exact same genetics, but

887
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 2: because of the year they were born and the year

888
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 2: they were in utero, the potential antler growth is dramatically different.

889
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 2: Absolutely yep.

890
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: And then, like I said, we we ultimately came around

891
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,400
Speaker 1: that they're all these matter and they all have an effect,

892
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: but maybe the most dramatic, the most the highest changing variable,

893
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 1: I guess, is that mother's health. Because the nutrition is

894
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 1: going to be fairly stable, you know, genetics are going

895
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:55,720
Speaker 1: to be what they are, you know, so it seemed

896
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 1: like that mother's health maybe had the biggest controlling factor,

897
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 1: is what we were trying to get across, compared to

898
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 1: some of the other things, everything else being equal, of course.

899
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 2: It probably has the biggest effect, and it's the thing

900
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 2: that we can control the most. Yep, Yeah, absolutely, I

901
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 2: agree with that.

902
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy. And we've even we even got into

903
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 1: like twins and then like how that you know, a

904
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,919
Speaker 1: twin is going to be you know, if a bowl

905
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 1: comes out of a set of twins is going to

906
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 1: be at a at a lower potential because they're there

907
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: were competing twins in the belly, you know, and versus

908
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: a single that drops. And yeah, it's kind of fascinating

909
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 1: when you get into it that that the you know,

910
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 1: at the at the calf level, the unborn calf level,

911
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 1: like the size of you know, a bull's horns are

912
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 1: being determined in some way or another.

913
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:48,319
Speaker 2: Absolutely, So, I mean we've had we haven't had a

914
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:51,760
Speaker 2: set of twins and elk yet, so it'll be interesting

915
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 2: if we ever do.

916
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: Can track that a little bit. Yeah, So what are

917
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 1: what are the I mean, I'm just throwing a question.

918
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,280
Speaker 1: Is there a percentage like is it very lower singles

919
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 1: or you know, single digit type twins.

920
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 2: And three hundred litters. Here, we haven't had a single

921
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:10,839
Speaker 2: set of twins that we've found. I mean, I guess

922
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 2: there is possibility that we've had one that we haven't found,

923
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,360
Speaker 2: but you know, the average calf is thirty five pounds,

924
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:24,720
Speaker 2: and to raise two of those that that would be tough. Yeah,

925
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 2: So I mean my guess is that there may be

926
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:31,399
Speaker 2: it maybe happens, and the better condition or the better

927
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 2: the habitat is, the more likely it is to happen. Definitely,

928
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 2: that's true with moose. But twins is the is the

929
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,399
Speaker 2: optimal with moose, whereas singles are the optimum with elk.

930
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 2: And it's completely nutrition driven whether an elk, whether a

931
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 2: moose has a single or a twin, and twins is

932
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 2: the normal with deer and interesting. Deer have a very

933
00:51:55,440 --> 00:52:00,080
Speaker 2: different strategy than elk. Deer or pregnant every year regardless,

934
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 2: they manipulate their energy allocation after birth, whereas elk manipulate

935
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:08,840
Speaker 2: it before birth.

936
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 1: Gotcha, Yeah, Yeah, I'm glad we touched. That was kind

937
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 1: of my segue in we were going to talk about

938
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,439
Speaker 1: genetic potential, but we we got there a little sooner,

939
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:23,280
Speaker 1: which is perfect. And then let's let's jump into calling

940
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 1: elk and and see what you have the you know,

941
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 1: if there's anything you can add, maybe I'll just open

942
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 1: it up to an open forum of of you know,

943
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 1: if you've got any research on ELK calling and and

944
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 1: if we can tie that back in, you know, to

945
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 1: to biology, if if you've got any data or any

946
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 1: studies that that relate.

947
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 2: Uh I, I don't know of any studies on ELK

948
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 2: calling in the in the biological literature. I wish I

949
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 2: was better at it.

950
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, there's just so many unknowns. I wish

951
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 1: there was data that supported one or other, just so

952
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 1: I knew I wouldn't necessarily make changes to it because

953
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:05,799
Speaker 1: the way I do it, and I've always told people

954
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:07,439
Speaker 1: when it comes to calling ELK. I even talked about

955
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: this in my very last episode. I'm out there for

956
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:14,399
Speaker 1: a very specific reason. Yeah, I can spot in stock ELK,

957
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: I can cow call elkin, but dang, I'm out there

958
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 1: for that time when I rip a bugle at him

959
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 1: and he rolls his eyes back in his head and

960
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 1: pushes through a tree, twists his head sideways, and you know,

961
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,360
Speaker 1: comes around that corner and rips a beagle in my face,

962
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: like I want that experience is why I love calling elk.

963
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,839
Speaker 1: But I also recognize that there are very successful elk

964
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 1: hunters that claim to know, or I want to say,

965
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,879
Speaker 1: claim they've they've reduced it to a language, a form

966
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 1: of communication, you know, whether, hey, when they when they chuckle,

967
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 1: it means this, and when they lipball it means this,

968
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 1: and when they scream at you, it means this. And

969
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:53,359
Speaker 1: albeit we've even applied these these terms scream and lip

970
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 1: ball to their sounds, so who even knows what those

971
00:53:55,840 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 1: are necessarily, But and then there's people that claim, you know,

972
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 1: spot in stocks the way to go, versus I call

973
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:06,359
Speaker 1: more on a temperament. I feel like I've always been

974
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 1: able to just read the situation. You we talked about

975
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: it earlier. There are bulls with certain personalities. Maybe I'm

976
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 1: out there killing the ones with all the tough guy attitudes,

977
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 1: whatever it may be, but I want to get close.

978
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 1: And I do feel that that that bulls are on

979
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:25,439
Speaker 1: the landscape for really two reasons, right, It's the it's

980
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 1: to survive and then to recreate. And maybe you you've

981
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,920
Speaker 1: got some additions there, But I mean as a as

982
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 1: a species, they're they're trying to recreate and then they

983
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:35,960
Speaker 1: just want to live to the next year to try

984
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:36,799
Speaker 1: to recreate again.

985
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 2: So that that isn't that the function of every animal?

986
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 1: Yep? I mean they're they're they're literally trying to do

987
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 1: two things. So I'm very confident in boiling it down

988
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 1: to that. And then within that, if he's let's say

989
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 1: you're trying trying to call in a herd bowl, wouldn't

990
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 1: it be one of the ways, like in my head

991
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 1: is is he's got his cow, he's already got his

992
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:05,760
Speaker 1: ability to recreate. If he's able to maintain those cows

993
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 1: through the process of the rut. Right, if as they

994
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:13,439
Speaker 1: start to release you know, these certain hormones and other

995
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 1: you know, every other elk in the drainage is now aware,

996
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,320
Speaker 1: can he sustain and hold off you know other bowls.

997
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 1: So in my opinion, we talked about it earlier, we

998
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 1: get very very close because I'm not going to get

999
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 1: that bowl that's got his for sure thing to come

1000
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 1: check me out three hundred yards away. Right, I'm trying

1001
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 1: to maybe even reverse engineer the way wild wants to work.

1002
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 1: And hey, I'll be agle if you're a cow come

1003
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 1: see me. I'm trying to get very close. And then

1004
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,839
Speaker 1: I'm actually why I bugle very you know, maybe more

1005
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 1: than a cow call is I want to create this

1006
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:46,760
Speaker 1: idea that hey, you might have a cow in estris

1007
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:48,879
Speaker 1: Or and he are ready to be bred. But I'm

1008
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 1: now right on your herd. You know, you've already pushed

1009
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:54,279
Speaker 1: your other satellite bowls off in this direction or that

1010
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: direction and their bedded you know, exit distance away. But

1011
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 1: I'm now right on top of you. You Now, I've

1012
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 1: got close enough where your fight or flight has been

1013
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 1: triggered and either going to risk the chance of losing

1014
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:09,040
Speaker 1: your cows or you know, defeating me the new bullet

1015
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 1: showed up and maintaining your cows. Whereas we're like, in

1016
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: my mind, if we if we bugle our way in,

1017
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:20,839
Speaker 1: we've now given that bowl. We haven't triggered that fight

1018
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:23,479
Speaker 1: or flight. He will flight, but he's taking his cows

1019
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:25,000
Speaker 1: with him, and he's gonna do that way before you

1020
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 1: have ever a chance with a bow in your hand.

1021
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 1: Right and you know we could we've coined it shock

1022
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:33,399
Speaker 1: and awe, but it's I I do feel that if

1023
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 1: you call your way in, you're Yeah, there are times

1024
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 1: where we need him to pop off so we don't

1025
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:41,319
Speaker 1: get the wind wrong or make sure we're approaching right.

1026
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:43,359
Speaker 1: But a lot of times, once we locate a bowl,

1027
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 1: we don't make another peep until we get next to him.

1028
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 1: And it's it's really trying to play on on those

1029
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 1: two facts that they're they're trying to recreate this time

1030
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 1: of year. They've got one month plus or minus to

1031
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:57,839
Speaker 1: do it, and they've got cows on a heard bull.

1032
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:02,239
Speaker 2: So I'm I'm very where I'm not. I'm guarantee I'm

1033
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:05,280
Speaker 2: not as good a bull color as you. But once

1034
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 2: I've located a bull, I go at him as hard

1035
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:11,760
Speaker 2: as I can, as fast as I can, making noise

1036
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:15,400
Speaker 2: to even maybe one hundred yards, and then I slow

1037
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 2: down because if they're moving you and you tenderfoot around,

1038
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 2: you never catch them.

1039
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 1: Yep.

1040
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 2: And once you're close, then you're in there zone and

1041
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 2: you can get them to do something yep.

1042
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 1: Yep, and a little bit of the opposite. Let's go

1043
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:34,560
Speaker 1: ahead say.

1044
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 2: And I think you're right. Every bull has a different personality,

1045
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 2: so you know, so I'm a little a little cal

1046
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:44,040
Speaker 2: call and that gets them going and others that doesn't

1047
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 2: work and they start moving the herd off and the

1048
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 2: last ball I got, I didn't even bugle. He started

1049
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 2: moving his herd, but I had three cow calls, and

1050
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 2: I started doing them all and breaking branches, and he

1051
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 2: turned around and ran right back.

1052
00:57:56,760 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 1: Yep, yep, and and using that same fight or flight.

1053
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 1: And you know, the the the want or the you know,

1054
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 1: they're genetically disposed to want to recreate. If we're dealing

1055
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 1: with a satellite bowl. There are bulls that are on

1056
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 1: the landscape that don't have cows, but maybe mature enough

1057
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:17,040
Speaker 1: or not even mature enough, but they want to have cows,

1058
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: and and they're they're mature enough to know the game

1059
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: and what's going on, and they're smelling all the smells

1060
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 1: of September. We typically go at those with a lot

1061
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:26,920
Speaker 1: of cow calls because the pecking order has been established.

1062
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 1: As you mentioned earlier, I believe the bulls can look

1063
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 1: at each other and know, like, well, your four notches

1064
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 1: down for me, I'm two notches up from you, like

1065
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:37,200
Speaker 1: you know, almost not to that degree, but but in

1066
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 1: some sense, like they know that degree. Yeah, who's tougher

1067
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 1: than who. Let's not let's not pretend to be, you know,

1068
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:47,480
Speaker 1: number one or number two on the list where this

1069
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:49,440
Speaker 1: guy's gonna get his butt kicked. He has no reason

1070
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 1: to come to us. But let's say if I now

1071
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:53,480
Speaker 1: use cow calls on this satellite bowl, let's not use

1072
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 1: a bugle, or if we do use a bugle, it

1073
00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 1: needs to be very, very low threat, like maybe a

1074
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 1: spike is his. You know, got a cow or a

1075
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 1: raghorn or whatever you want to say, Let's use heavy,

1076
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 1: heavy cow calls on this bull and staying within those

1077
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:10,600
Speaker 1: confines of my system, I don't feel like I got

1078
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:14,040
Speaker 1: to know what every single elk call and sound and

1079
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:17,720
Speaker 1: intricacy of it means. Yeah, I can make it all

1080
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:20,320
Speaker 1: day long and be fine. But if I just limit

1081
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 1: it to that and playoff of their wont to recreate,

1082
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:26,600
Speaker 1: I can control and it can dictate a lot of

1083
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:28,560
Speaker 1: what I'm doing as far as a call coming out

1084
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:29,040
Speaker 1: of my mouth.

1085
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 2: So yeah, and I by no means if I mastered calling.

1086
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:38,520
Speaker 2: I wish I was better, But it works, And I think,

1087
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 2: in my opinion, like you said, everyone has a different

1088
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 2: personality if you can figure out their personality. Sometimes though,

1089
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 2: I would say that it may be better to have

1090
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 2: the satellite bull, because sometimes the satellite bull can be

1091
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 2: bigger than the dominant bull.

1092
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 1: Yep.

1093
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:58,600
Speaker 2: The dominant bull is dominant because of body size, not

1094
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:02,680
Speaker 2: because of antler size. And so you could have an

1095
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 2: eight nine year old three twenty bowl that is actually

1096
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 2: the herd Bowl, and you could have a satellite bull

1097
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 2: that's a three sixty that's six years old. And so

1098
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:13,640
Speaker 2: if you can't see them, I think sometimes there are

1099
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 2: strategies for both.

1100
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:18,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, we see it every year where you know, a

1101
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 1: lot of times we get stuck chasing the Herd Bowl

1102
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:23,320
Speaker 1: because of what it is. But many times we've ran

1103
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 1: into the Satellite Bowl or changed our decision and turned

1104
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 1: to the turn to that satellite Bowl just because you know,

1105
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 1: of horn size and probably easier to call in most

1106
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:37,000
Speaker 1: of the time than that herd bull anyways.

1107
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:41,120
Speaker 2: Right, So, but you're right, it's their Their game is

1108
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 2: to procreate and that's what that's what they're figuring out,

1109
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 2: and you're our game is to is to trick them

1110
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 2: into procreating with the cow that we're with or whatever.

1111
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:55,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're trying to imitate that cow. And

1112
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 1: it's a little bit of I I feel we're reversing

1113
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 1: it because I've seen it many times where a bull beagles.

1114
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:03,720
Speaker 1: Maybe a loan cow was on a ridge and you

1115
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 1: can kind of, you know, you're glassing across the canyon.

1116
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 1: You can see that loan cow. Once that bull beagles,

1117
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 1: she'll like b line to him and she'll go join

1118
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 1: the herd. You know, he kind of he'll come out

1119
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:14,919
Speaker 1: of his herd kind of wrapper push her into the herd.

1120
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 1: You know, she's now part of the group. Well, it's like,

1121
01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 1: I think that's how it's supposed to work. We're over

1122
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:20,520
Speaker 1: here trying to do the opposite, like get this bowl

1123
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 1: and now leave his cows. You know, he's got other

1124
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 1: satellite bulls pestering him around his cows like he's he's

1125
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:28,440
Speaker 1: got a lot to risk by leaving that group. And

1126
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:30,480
Speaker 1: that's why I feel we've just got to get so

1127
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:33,440
Speaker 1: close so that that bull feels comfortable only leave in

1128
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:35,320
Speaker 1: fifty yards, so he can run right back if he

1129
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 1: needs to, you know, and not not risk losing those

1130
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:40,000
Speaker 1: to come check us out. Who's this new cow on

1131
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 1: the landscape or this new bowl on the landscape that's

1132
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 1: that's given him, you know, either threatening his herd or

1133
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:47,240
Speaker 1: wants to join is heard, So.

1134
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:50,400
Speaker 2: I think I think that's definitely true. I do also

1135
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 2: think and I don't know. I'd like to hear your

1136
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:54,480
Speaker 2: opinion on this, Jase. I think it can be different

1137
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 2: pre rut and post rut because pre rut they're looking.

1138
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 2: Post they may be looking. So you may have dominant

1139
01:02:02,560 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 2: bulls that are willing to come to a caw call.

1140
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:10,520
Speaker 2: For sure. During the peak they're usually locked with a group.

1141
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:14,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I should have prefaced that conversation on I would

1142
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 1: say more peak rep and maybe not peak rep but

1143
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:19,760
Speaker 1: close to that, you know, September fifth to twenty fifth

1144
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:23,520
Speaker 1: or thirtieth. But I'm I agree with you completely and

1145
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:25,400
Speaker 1: we talk about it a little bit where I'm I'm

1146
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:29,640
Speaker 1: a fairly heavy bugler and my strategy revolves around a

1147
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:32,400
Speaker 1: lot of biggling early early in the season and late

1148
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:35,240
Speaker 1: in the season kind of that pre impost I will

1149
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 1: go back to cal calls because that dominant bowl is

1150
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:40,919
Speaker 1: looking for that last cow on the landscape and he's

1151
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:43,800
Speaker 1: willing to to you know, leave you know he we

1152
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:46,120
Speaker 1: already talked about earlier. A lot of these bulls are

1153
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 1: checking throughout the night, they're checking throughout the day. They

1154
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 1: do They're working all the time to find this one

1155
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 1: cow that may be coming in or so. Yeah, I

1156
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:58,400
Speaker 1: strongly agree with that early in the season, late in

1157
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:00,920
Speaker 1: the season, go back to cal call because they're not

1158
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:02,880
Speaker 1: looking to fight, they're looking to find that last cow.

1159
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:05,920
Speaker 2: And I've even had it, Jason, and I'm sure you

1160
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:09,280
Speaker 2: have to where one day I see a great bull

1161
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:12,040
Speaker 2: with a group of cows and the next day he's

1162
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:15,200
Speaker 2: all by himself and he'll come to a cow call Yep,

1163
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 2: that's somebody's kicked him off.

1164
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:19,920
Speaker 1: I mean, we were in New Mexico last year. We

1165
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:23,000
Speaker 1: watched it alternate almost daily. There was a very large

1166
01:03:23,040 --> 01:03:26,640
Speaker 1: five point first day we seen him, he had heard it.

1167
01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:28,120
Speaker 1: Eight next day we seen him. He was all by

1168
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 1: himself in a different ball and then he was able

1169
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:31,360
Speaker 1: to pick up three cows and the name was all

1170
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:33,880
Speaker 1: by himself. It was like, yeah, it's just it's like

1171
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:36,960
Speaker 1: alternating and I don't know, I wish I knew whyre

1172
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:40,360
Speaker 1: how come? Like was that big bull rolling through and

1173
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:42,680
Speaker 1: he was checking on those cows enough? And he did

1174
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:44,240
Speaker 1: it at night just to say like, all right, there's

1175
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:46,640
Speaker 1: some cows in here that are ready. Thanks for thanks

1176
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:49,480
Speaker 1: for being the watchdog. I got this now, you know.

1177
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:52,440
Speaker 1: And we've we've seen bulls do that where like right

1178
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:54,920
Speaker 1: at the break of day, he'll be with the herd

1179
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 1: and then you'll see him just leave and it's like, well,

1180
01:03:56,960 --> 01:04:02,200
Speaker 1: that bull's old, he's smart, he's big, he's he's smelled

1181
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 1: and seen what he needed to see and nothing he

1182
01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:06,120
Speaker 1: doesn't there's no reason for him to stick with them

1183
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 1: to the day where they're going to put him at risk.

1184
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:10,080
Speaker 1: He's going to go back into his hiding hole until

1185
01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:11,640
Speaker 1: one of these nights he comes out and some of

1186
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:15,280
Speaker 1: these these cows or you know, an estris and then

1187
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:17,920
Speaker 1: he'll stay right. You know, they're they're just smart. They

1188
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:20,320
Speaker 1: they know, they know what's coming up. And I feel

1189
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:22,840
Speaker 1: that we have to play with that a little bit too.

1190
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:25,560
Speaker 2: I completely agree with that.

1191
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:29,240
Speaker 1: Well, it's been a great conversation, Brock. Do you have

1192
01:04:29,240 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 1: anything else we touched on that you've got like good

1193
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:33,960
Speaker 1: data on that could be used for for hunting or

1194
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:36,920
Speaker 1: making decisions out there, or just anything unique that people

1195
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 1: may not know about Elk that's just the cool facts

1196
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:40,200
Speaker 1: about him.

1197
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:44,960
Speaker 2: So I'm looking through data graphs to see if there's

1198
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 2: anything I want to add. One thing I would add

1199
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 2: maybe is that that there is a cost to reproduction.

1200
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:57,360
Speaker 2: So if if a cow raises a calf successfully this year,

1201
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 2: she's less likely to be pregnant. If she was pregnant,

1202
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:03,919
Speaker 2: that has no effect. But if she raised a calf,

1203
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:08,320
Speaker 2: she's less likely to be pregnant because there is a

1204
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 2: real cost to raising a calf. Trying to think if

1205
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:15,800
Speaker 2: there's anything else here, and I guess my take home

1206
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:20,800
Speaker 2: messages if another take home would be I would trust

1207
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 2: the state biologists. I see in Utah a lot of

1208
01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:29,560
Speaker 2: sportsmen that believe they know how to manage better than

1209
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:32,960
Speaker 2: the people that are trying to study and understand the biology.

1210
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,840
Speaker 2: And I think we should listen because a lot of

1211
01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 2: them have a lot of experience and they may have

1212
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:44,200
Speaker 2: some really good insight. But I don't think the general

1213
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:47,760
Speaker 2: idea that I know better than the biologists is right.

1214
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:49,200
Speaker 2: And I see that a lot.

1215
01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't want to make this political at all,

1216
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:57,520
Speaker 1: especially coming from Washington. I feel like one of the

1217
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:00,400
Speaker 1: big issues we deal with is the biologists truly are

1218
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 1: trying to do what's right, but yet we've got this

1219
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:07,880
Speaker 1: commission that's been appointed that then will just go against

1220
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 1: what they've recommended and cut tags in half or you know,

1221
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:13,919
Speaker 1: double tags here, double cow tags, and you're like gosh,

1222
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:16,840
Speaker 1: dang it, you can read what the biologists recommended, who's

1223
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:22,240
Speaker 1: the closest to this unit. But yet a commission, you know,

1224
01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:24,680
Speaker 1: made up of zoo keepers and whatever it may be,

1225
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:27,000
Speaker 1: are are the ones that determine how many tags? And

1226
01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 1: that's I guess that's where a lot of hunter frustration

1227
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:32,160
Speaker 1: comes in. And I feel one of the bad pr

1228
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:36,520
Speaker 1: things that happens is everything gets lumped together. Right, the

1229
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:39,120
Speaker 1: biologists are the commission are the ones making the decisions.

1230
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 1: I think it's very hard for people to differentiate. It's

1231
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:44,560
Speaker 1: just the the department's doing the wrong thing, which is

1232
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:46,120
Speaker 1: what I see a lot here in Washington.

1233
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:49,440
Speaker 2: That's right. And the other thing, I'd say, there is

1234
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:53,520
Speaker 2: a vocal minority of public in Utah. Our Wildlife Board

1235
01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 2: receives a lot of pressure from the vocal sportsman, and

1236
01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:01,959
Speaker 2: I think it's the vocal minority. Maybe it's not, maybe

1237
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:05,400
Speaker 2: it's a vocal majority, but it's a lot of pressure

1238
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:10,720
Speaker 2: and and and they often go against the recommendation of

1239
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 2: the biologists because of the vocal pressure that they've received

1240
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:17,240
Speaker 2: from the public. Man, I think we have some of

1241
01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:20,040
Speaker 2: the best biologists in the world and they're trying their

1242
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:23,640
Speaker 2: hardest to do what's right, and I think you should

1243
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 2: give them the benefit of the doubt and tell it's

1244
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:29,840
Speaker 2: clear that they're not making a good choice.

1245
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:37,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it's it's such a complex intertwingling and then

1246
01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:39,920
Speaker 1: we got to try to navigate it. It's and I

1247
01:07:40,000 --> 01:07:42,720
Speaker 1: recognize it. Like there was a time where I killed

1248
01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:45,320
Speaker 1: the first legal bull that I called in every year

1249
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:48,040
Speaker 1: or had a chance to kill. And now that I'm

1250
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:52,439
Speaker 1: had more opportunity, I've got a little more experience under

1251
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:55,160
Speaker 1: my belt, I want to go out there and hunt

1252
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:56,760
Speaker 1: for a different reason. I want to go try to

1253
01:07:56,760 --> 01:07:59,360
Speaker 1: take a mature bowl and old bull off the landscape.

1254
01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 1: And well, I'm very I want to be very respectful

1255
01:08:02,520 --> 01:08:05,360
Speaker 1: to what everybody wants. And it's very tough because now

1256
01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:11,080
Speaker 1: the biologist have you know Hunter X over here that

1257
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:14,880
Speaker 1: wants maximum opportunity, Hunter why is now mad? Because or

1258
01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:17,720
Speaker 1: maybe not mad, Hunter why just wants trophy quality? Well,

1259
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:20,160
Speaker 1: Hunter Z wants a mix of both and a good

1260
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 1: mix of both. Well, now, as a biologist and in

1261
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:24,680
Speaker 1: a state agency, how do you provide that to to

1262
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:27,880
Speaker 1: three different people? And and trust me, there's and you

1263
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:30,479
Speaker 1: know as well as I do, there's there's way more

1264
01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:32,960
Speaker 1: than those three opinions. Somebody else wants something different. They

1265
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:36,160
Speaker 1: want cow opportunities, and you know, the farmer within the

1266
01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:39,080
Speaker 1: unit wants a bunch of depredation tags, you know, and

1267
01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:40,920
Speaker 1: you try to have to balance all of this. It's

1268
01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:43,720
Speaker 1: just it's not an easy task. And I think we

1269
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:45,639
Speaker 1: need to recognize all of that. And like you said,

1270
01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:47,400
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it does come back to

1271
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:49,360
Speaker 1: the bile just do know what they're doing. They can

1272
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:51,920
Speaker 1: listen to a lot of that, but as it's a

1273
01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:55,439
Speaker 1: very difficult decision to be made, I think that that

1274
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:57,639
Speaker 1: makes everybody happy.

1275
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:01,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a lot of empathy for him because

1276
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:03,200
Speaker 2: I see him get beat up all the time when

1277
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:04,800
Speaker 2: they're trying to do it. I mean, we all care

1278
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:08,439
Speaker 2: about right, Jason. Every one of us want to do

1279
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:10,840
Speaker 2: what's best for the population. And we all have a

1280
01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:13,720
Speaker 2: little different idea of what is best for the population.

1281
01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:16,960
Speaker 2: And and we might be right because we have different

1282
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:20,280
Speaker 2: values on what we want from the population. Yeah, and

1283
01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:22,960
Speaker 2: it's hard to balance all of those for sure.

1284
01:09:23,160 --> 01:09:28,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's tough, but yeah, I appreciate you coming on, Brock,

1285
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:30,960
Speaker 1: thanks for kind of you know that that little bit

1286
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:33,080
Speaker 1: at the end, you know, trusted biologists. I think they

1287
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:36,040
Speaker 1: do have the best interest of the animal and the

1288
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:39,400
Speaker 1: unit until I'm gonna say this one more time and

1289
01:09:39,400 --> 01:09:41,799
Speaker 1: I'm gonna run away from it until politics get sprinkled

1290
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:45,479
Speaker 1: in a little bit. But but yeah, it's it's it's

1291
01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:49,040
Speaker 1: been a great conversation. Glad to pick your brain, and

1292
01:09:49,280 --> 01:09:51,640
Speaker 1: good luck this year. And really appreciate you having you

1293
01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:52,560
Speaker 1: on the podcast.

1294
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:55,400
Speaker 2: Well I really appreciate it. We have another ten days

1295
01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:57,160
Speaker 2: of elcaving. If you want to come down and go

1296
01:09:57,240 --> 01:09:57,720
Speaker 2: out on something.

1297
01:09:57,840 --> 01:10:01,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll be We'll be chasing calves around on Monday

1298
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:01,759
Speaker 1: and Tuesday.

1299
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:01,920
Speaker 2: Here.

1300
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:04,040
Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm getting myself into, but I'm

1301
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:05,240
Speaker 1: look forward to learning.

1302
01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:07,240
Speaker 2: Oh it's fantastic. I love it.

1303
01:10:07,280 --> 01:10:09,760
Speaker 1: So all right, all right, thanks a lot, Brock, take care.

1304
01:10:10,120 --> 01:10:11,560
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. I appreciate it.