1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:25,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hey Happiness Lab listeners, Happy International Day of Happiness. 2 00:00:25,436 --> 00:00:28,516 Speaker 1: The International Day of Happiness is a holiday established by 3 00:00:28,556 --> 00:00:31,556 Speaker 1: the United Nations as a global day of recognition about 4 00:00:31,596 --> 00:00:34,916 Speaker 1: the fundamental importance of human happiness, and on this day 5 00:00:34,956 --> 00:00:37,956 Speaker 1: each year, the United Nations and its partners release the 6 00:00:37,956 --> 00:00:41,796 Speaker 1: World Happiness Report, their annual snapshot of how happy people 7 00:00:41,836 --> 00:00:44,916 Speaker 1: are around the globe. The report is also famous for 8 00:00:45,036 --> 00:00:47,876 Speaker 1: ranking the happiest countries in the world, and this year 9 00:00:47,916 --> 00:00:52,436 Speaker 1: the happiest country is Finland for the ninth year in 10 00:00:52,436 --> 00:00:56,436 Speaker 1: a row, So congratulations to Finland and all its lucky inhabitants. 11 00:00:56,916 --> 00:00:59,676 Speaker 1: For a social science nerd like me, the World Happiness 12 00:00:59,676 --> 00:01:03,316 Speaker 1: Report is an absolute tree. It brings leading researchers around 13 00:01:03,316 --> 00:01:06,116 Speaker 1: the world together to dig into the political, social and 14 00:01:06,196 --> 00:01:09,676 Speaker 1: economic forces that shape our well being. Edition of the 15 00:01:09,676 --> 00:01:13,076 Speaker 1: World Happiness Report centers around a different theme, and this 16 00:01:13,156 --> 00:01:15,316 Speaker 1: year's theme feels especially relevant. 17 00:01:15,676 --> 00:01:18,836 Speaker 2: If we're going to think about psychological well being and 18 00:01:18,876 --> 00:01:22,156 Speaker 2: happiness in the modern age, we have to look in 19 00:01:22,196 --> 00:01:23,476 Speaker 2: depth at technology. 20 00:01:23,916 --> 00:01:27,076 Speaker 1: This is doctor Gen Twangie, one of the researchers behind 21 00:01:27,116 --> 00:01:31,236 Speaker 1: this year's World Happiness Report. Jane is an internationally celebrated 22 00:01:31,276 --> 00:01:35,036 Speaker 1: psychologist at San Diego State University. Her chapter looks at 23 00:01:35,076 --> 00:01:37,556 Speaker 1: how young people around the world use and respond to 24 00:01:37,596 --> 00:01:40,476 Speaker 1: social media. Gene is something of a rock star when 25 00:01:40,516 --> 00:01:44,036 Speaker 1: it comes to understanding teens and technology. In fact, she 26 00:01:44,236 --> 00:01:46,156 Speaker 1: was one of the first people to sell the alarm 27 00:01:46,236 --> 00:01:49,276 Speaker 1: on how smartphones might be damaging adolescent mental health. 28 00:01:49,796 --> 00:01:52,996 Speaker 2: The article in The Atlantic was an excerpt of my 29 00:01:53,076 --> 00:01:56,636 Speaker 2: book Eejet, which came out in August twenty seventeen. It 30 00:01:56,916 --> 00:02:00,316 Speaker 2: was headlined have Smartphones Destroyed a Generation? 31 00:02:00,676 --> 00:02:03,636 Speaker 1: As you can imagine, people had some very strong reactions 32 00:02:03,636 --> 00:02:04,316 Speaker 1: to this title. 33 00:02:04,596 --> 00:02:06,716 Speaker 2: I always like to point out number one, it's a question, 34 00:02:07,116 --> 00:02:09,636 Speaker 2: and number two, I didn't write it because headlines are 35 00:02:09,636 --> 00:02:12,396 Speaker 2: written by editors, not by the authors, and they're supposed 36 00:02:12,396 --> 00:02:14,076 Speaker 2: to be clickbait. And it did its job. 37 00:02:14,236 --> 00:02:17,756 Speaker 1: But the article itself was grounded in some pretty revolutionary data. 38 00:02:17,916 --> 00:02:21,716 Speaker 2: It really came from what I was seeing in these 39 00:02:21,756 --> 00:02:25,396 Speaker 2: big national surveys of teens. All of a sudden, around 40 00:02:25,396 --> 00:02:27,516 Speaker 2: twenty twelve, more and more teens started to say that 41 00:02:27,556 --> 00:02:30,876 Speaker 2: they felt lonely, that they felt left out, that they 42 00:02:30,876 --> 00:02:33,636 Speaker 2: felt like they couldn't do anything right, that their lives 43 00:02:33,916 --> 00:02:36,716 Speaker 2: weren't useful, that they didn't enjoy life and those last 44 00:02:36,756 --> 00:02:38,756 Speaker 2: three year classic symptoms of depression. 45 00:02:39,116 --> 00:02:41,156 Speaker 1: One of the things I find so harrowing about that 46 00:02:41,276 --> 00:02:44,676 Speaker 1: article reading it now, is that you had this sentence 47 00:02:44,756 --> 00:02:47,196 Speaker 1: that young people might be quote on the brink of 48 00:02:47,196 --> 00:02:51,476 Speaker 1: a mental health crisis. What has happened since that time? 49 00:02:51,596 --> 00:02:53,516 Speaker 2: I mean, if you follow that metaphor through, if they 50 00:02:53,516 --> 00:02:56,716 Speaker 2: were on the brink of a cliff, they fell off 51 00:02:56,716 --> 00:02:57,156 Speaker 2: the cliff. 52 00:02:58,276 --> 00:03:00,276 Speaker 1: But what if our young people have fallen off the cliff? 53 00:03:00,596 --> 00:03:02,796 Speaker 1: Is there any way for them to climb back on top? 54 00:03:03,476 --> 00:03:03,836 Speaker 2: Well? 55 00:03:03,876 --> 00:03:06,676 Speaker 1: Stay tuned because in this episode, Gina and I will 56 00:03:06,716 --> 00:03:09,596 Speaker 1: explore new data from around the world and how young 57 00:03:09,596 --> 00:03:12,516 Speaker 1: people today are using social media and what the latest 58 00:03:12,556 --> 00:03:15,356 Speaker 1: research shows about how all of us can build healthier 59 00:03:15,396 --> 00:03:19,636 Speaker 1: relationships with these platforms. The Happiness Lab will return right 60 00:03:19,636 --> 00:03:34,916 Speaker 1: after some quick messages from our sponsors. I was so 61 00:03:34,996 --> 00:03:38,156 Speaker 1: excited to hear that psychologist Gene Twangie was part of 62 00:03:38,196 --> 00:03:41,596 Speaker 1: the twenty twenty six World Happiness Report. Jean's been a 63 00:03:41,636 --> 00:03:44,476 Speaker 1: research hero of mine for a while, in large part 64 00:03:44,676 --> 00:03:47,156 Speaker 1: because she was one of the very first researchers to 65 00:03:47,196 --> 00:03:51,716 Speaker 1: call out the negative effects of smartphones on teen happiness. 66 00:03:50,796 --> 00:03:53,516 Speaker 2: And then other folks started to notice as too. There 67 00:03:53,516 --> 00:03:57,196 Speaker 2: was an article on pediatrics about clinical level depression suddenly 68 00:03:57,236 --> 00:04:01,596 Speaker 2: going up around twenty twelve, that emergency room admissions for 69 00:04:01,636 --> 00:04:04,836 Speaker 2: self harm were going up, that suicide rate was going up. 70 00:04:05,316 --> 00:04:07,996 Speaker 2: So there was a lot of stuff going on with 71 00:04:08,076 --> 00:04:11,116 Speaker 2: that turning point around twenty twelve. 72 00:04:10,836 --> 00:04:12,796 Speaker 1: And so what did you think was going on? At first? 73 00:04:13,116 --> 00:04:16,076 Speaker 2: I had no clue. I mean, really, it was a mystery. 74 00:04:16,596 --> 00:04:18,916 Speaker 2: I just remember thinking, like, what's going wrong in the 75 00:04:18,916 --> 00:04:21,996 Speaker 2: lives of teens at that point? And you know, when 76 00:04:21,996 --> 00:04:24,076 Speaker 2: you work with big data sets that go over time, 77 00:04:24,556 --> 00:04:26,756 Speaker 2: when you have one year of data, you always have 78 00:04:26,836 --> 00:04:28,756 Speaker 2: to pause and go, Okay, this could be a blip. 79 00:04:28,836 --> 00:04:31,116 Speaker 2: I might go back to normal the next year. But 80 00:04:31,196 --> 00:04:33,796 Speaker 2: it didn't. So then I started thinking more broadly, well, 81 00:04:33,916 --> 00:04:35,756 Speaker 2: could it be the economy that's always kind of the 82 00:04:35,756 --> 00:04:37,956 Speaker 2: first place that you have to go. It was clearly 83 00:04:37,996 --> 00:04:39,956 Speaker 2: not the economy. Those of us who lived through the 84 00:04:39,956 --> 00:04:43,236 Speaker 2: Great Recession and know how bad that got. But it 85 00:04:43,316 --> 00:04:47,116 Speaker 2: was finally finally over by twenty twelve and things were 86 00:04:47,116 --> 00:04:49,996 Speaker 2: getting better in the US. Economy was a mystery. But 87 00:04:50,036 --> 00:04:52,756 Speaker 2: at the same time that I started to notice these trends, 88 00:04:52,756 --> 00:04:54,676 Speaker 2: I've been working on a few other projects with these 89 00:04:54,716 --> 00:04:58,516 Speaker 2: surveys and noticed that around that same turning point in 90 00:04:58,556 --> 00:05:02,436 Speaker 2: twenty twelve, teens also started to sleep less, and maybe 91 00:05:02,476 --> 00:05:05,556 Speaker 2: even more crucially, teens and young adults are spending less 92 00:05:05,596 --> 00:05:07,836 Speaker 2: time hanging out with their friends, going to parties, just 93 00:05:07,916 --> 00:05:10,956 Speaker 2: getting together with friends, and normally in socializing. All of 94 00:05:10,996 --> 00:05:15,076 Speaker 2: it was going down, and I thought about all of 95 00:05:15,116 --> 00:05:18,036 Speaker 2: those things. You know, we have depression going up, we 96 00:05:18,156 --> 00:05:20,796 Speaker 2: have less time with friends in person, less time sleeping. 97 00:05:20,876 --> 00:05:24,676 Speaker 2: What might possibly explain that? And then I saw a 98 00:05:24,676 --> 00:05:28,676 Speaker 2: few research had data on ownership of smartphones, and it 99 00:05:28,796 --> 00:05:33,636 Speaker 2: turns out that the ownership of smartphones among Americans passed 100 00:05:33,676 --> 00:05:36,796 Speaker 2: fifty percent around the end of twenty twelve, and that 101 00:05:37,156 --> 00:05:41,876 Speaker 2: started to coalesce into a theory that it was the 102 00:05:41,996 --> 00:05:46,036 Speaker 2: rise of smartphones, the rise of social media that might 103 00:05:46,196 --> 00:05:47,236 Speaker 2: explain these threads. 104 00:05:47,916 --> 00:05:50,876 Speaker 1: Did we know about the mechanisms how technology might be 105 00:05:50,916 --> 00:05:52,236 Speaker 1: affecting kids' mental health. 106 00:05:52,316 --> 00:05:56,636 Speaker 2: I mean, I had that theory about displacing sleep and 107 00:05:56,676 --> 00:06:00,836 Speaker 2: displacing in person social interaction with friends, so that seemed 108 00:06:00,876 --> 00:06:04,596 Speaker 2: like one very clear mechanism, But we didn't know as much, 109 00:06:04,836 --> 00:06:08,756 Speaker 2: I think at the time about some of the other mechanisms. 110 00:06:09,236 --> 00:06:12,556 Speaker 2: Even back then, people were certainly talking about, Hey, there's 111 00:06:12,596 --> 00:06:17,396 Speaker 2: this competition for likes and followers, there's the body image 112 00:06:18,036 --> 00:06:24,556 Speaker 2: problems cropping up on Instagram, that people are behaving compulsively 113 00:06:24,756 --> 00:06:27,796 Speaker 2: when it comes to their phones and social media. We 114 00:06:27,836 --> 00:06:29,756 Speaker 2: didn't know all the ins and outs of that, but 115 00:06:30,396 --> 00:06:33,196 Speaker 2: teens knew. That's what I also think is really interesting 116 00:06:33,276 --> 00:06:35,236 Speaker 2: is when I first started to give talks on this 117 00:06:35,796 --> 00:06:39,636 Speaker 2: in twenty seventeen twenty eighteen, I was really afraid that 118 00:06:39,676 --> 00:06:42,156 Speaker 2: the teens in my audience would be like, you're old, 119 00:06:42,236 --> 00:06:44,116 Speaker 2: you don't know anything. This stuff is fine, we love it, 120 00:06:44,436 --> 00:06:46,116 Speaker 2: And that's not even close to what happened. 121 00:06:46,316 --> 00:06:48,636 Speaker 1: It's so interesting in part because those were the early 122 00:06:48,756 --> 00:06:50,756 Speaker 1: days of some of these technologies. You know, that was 123 00:06:50,796 --> 00:06:53,396 Speaker 1: like old school Instagram, that wasn't like reels and all 124 00:06:53,396 --> 00:06:56,156 Speaker 1: this stuff that's right them and even more yeah, exactly, 125 00:06:56,516 --> 00:06:58,436 Speaker 1: so give the listeners a sense of just how bad 126 00:06:58,476 --> 00:06:59,836 Speaker 1: the statistics are these days. 127 00:06:59,996 --> 00:07:02,956 Speaker 2: Clinical level depression among teens doubled between twenty eleven and 128 00:07:02,956 --> 00:07:06,276 Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, before the pandemic was on the scene. That's 129 00:07:06,276 --> 00:07:09,996 Speaker 2: how big the problem already was. But it's pretty common 130 00:07:10,476 --> 00:07:14,356 Speaker 2: to see, especially for depression and anxiety. Heavy users of 131 00:07:14,396 --> 00:07:17,996 Speaker 2: social media usually somewhere between fifty percent and two hundred 132 00:07:18,036 --> 00:07:22,636 Speaker 2: percent more likely to some kind of criteria for clinically 133 00:07:22,676 --> 00:07:25,116 Speaker 2: significant depression or high depression. 134 00:07:25,476 --> 00:07:28,316 Speaker 1: And so, now that you've been studying this connection for 135 00:07:28,356 --> 00:07:30,276 Speaker 1: so long, what are some of the new things that 136 00:07:30,316 --> 00:07:30,916 Speaker 1: we've learned. 137 00:07:31,116 --> 00:07:32,796 Speaker 2: We just have a lot more data from a lot 138 00:07:32,836 --> 00:07:36,676 Speaker 2: more sources. Now, when I wrote Igen, there were really, 139 00:07:36,716 --> 00:07:39,356 Speaker 2: as far as I knew, only three experimental studies on 140 00:07:39,436 --> 00:07:43,436 Speaker 2: social media reduction or abstinence and then looking at outcomes. 141 00:07:43,996 --> 00:07:46,836 Speaker 2: Just in the last year, we've had several meta analyzes 142 00:07:46,876 --> 00:07:51,236 Speaker 2: come out because there's now so many social media reduction experiments. 143 00:07:51,476 --> 00:07:54,156 Speaker 1: So these meta analyzes are big studies of studies where 144 00:07:54,276 --> 00:07:56,596 Speaker 1: not only do we have more experimental studies, you put 145 00:07:56,636 --> 00:07:59,796 Speaker 1: all the experimental studies together statistically and ask what's going. 146 00:07:59,596 --> 00:08:02,836 Speaker 2: On exactly, So that the two most recent ones that 147 00:08:02,876 --> 00:08:06,676 Speaker 2: came out in twenty five both show is significant reduction 148 00:08:07,076 --> 00:08:12,316 Speaker 2: in depression and a significant increase in psychological well being, 149 00:08:12,396 --> 00:08:16,036 Speaker 2: so happiness, life satisfaction, those types of measures. When people 150 00:08:16,356 --> 00:08:20,116 Speaker 2: give up or cut back on social media, especially if 151 00:08:20,156 --> 00:08:23,076 Speaker 2: they do that for three weeks or more, what's interesting though, 152 00:08:23,116 --> 00:08:27,356 Speaker 2: is you can't exactly really ethically do kind of the 153 00:08:27,396 --> 00:08:31,516 Speaker 2: ideal experiment in this area, which would be to randomly 154 00:08:31,556 --> 00:08:33,396 Speaker 2: sign a bunch of twelve year olds to spend eight 155 00:08:33,396 --> 00:08:36,636 Speaker 2: hours a day on social media, not really ethical, and 156 00:08:36,756 --> 00:08:38,956 Speaker 2: even doing that with twenty two year olds would probably 157 00:08:38,996 --> 00:08:42,316 Speaker 2: not be ethical. So that's why most of the studies 158 00:08:42,316 --> 00:08:45,996 Speaker 2: have focused on kind of the opposite premise of giving 159 00:08:46,076 --> 00:08:49,716 Speaker 2: up or reducing social media. By definition, what those studies 160 00:08:49,756 --> 00:08:53,156 Speaker 2: are doing is taking people from the average use of 161 00:08:53,196 --> 00:08:55,756 Speaker 2: social media to light and this I think is an 162 00:08:55,756 --> 00:08:59,316 Speaker 2: opportunity for future research because that's not where the action 163 00:08:59,516 --> 00:09:02,516 Speaker 2: is in the correlational data, not even close. It's the 164 00:09:02,516 --> 00:09:07,156 Speaker 2: heavy users were really see high rates of depression and unhappiness. 165 00:09:07,716 --> 00:09:11,036 Speaker 2: So I'm hoping there'll be a study that will take 166 00:09:11,076 --> 00:09:12,916 Speaker 2: the heavy users and try to get them to cut back. 167 00:09:12,916 --> 00:09:15,076 Speaker 2: I mean, that might be a little bit of a challenge, 168 00:09:15,196 --> 00:09:17,676 Speaker 2: but I would expect you to see even bigger effects sizes. There. 169 00:09:18,716 --> 00:09:20,396 Speaker 1: Another thing I know you've talked a lot about is 170 00:09:20,436 --> 00:09:22,836 Speaker 1: this idea that we need better data when it comes 171 00:09:22,836 --> 00:09:25,756 Speaker 1: to cross cultural social media use, and that's where this 172 00:09:25,836 --> 00:09:29,196 Speaker 1: New World Happiness Report fits in. And so before you 173 00:09:29,236 --> 00:09:30,996 Speaker 1: started the World Happiness Report. What were some of the 174 00:09:31,036 --> 00:09:32,956 Speaker 1: open questions that you wanted to look at with this 175 00:09:33,036 --> 00:09:33,716 Speaker 1: new data set. 176 00:09:34,636 --> 00:09:38,516 Speaker 2: So this is the piece of data set. PIEZA standsor 177 00:09:38,516 --> 00:09:42,076 Speaker 2: of the Program for International Student Assessment. Its primary purpose 178 00:09:42,196 --> 00:09:45,556 Speaker 2: is to look at academic performance in math, reading, and 179 00:09:45,956 --> 00:09:49,156 Speaker 2: science and it's a teenagers so it looks at fifteen 180 00:09:49,196 --> 00:09:52,116 Speaker 2: and sixteen year olds in countries around the world. So 181 00:09:52,156 --> 00:09:55,796 Speaker 2: we're between thirty and forty depending on what measures you're using. 182 00:09:56,356 --> 00:10:01,356 Speaker 2: And we know from international data sets including PISA, that 183 00:10:01,436 --> 00:10:04,956 Speaker 2: there's been an increase over the years and the number 184 00:10:04,996 --> 00:10:08,116 Speaker 2: of adolescents who say that they're lonely, and the number 185 00:10:08,116 --> 00:10:12,436 Speaker 2: of adolescents who say that they have psychological difficulties like anxiety. 186 00:10:13,036 --> 00:10:18,716 Speaker 2: But what hasn't been as present is those international data 187 00:10:18,716 --> 00:10:22,156 Speaker 2: sets asking about hours per day spent on social media 188 00:10:22,756 --> 00:10:25,716 Speaker 2: and then also having some other measure of mental health 189 00:10:25,836 --> 00:10:31,196 Speaker 2: or psychological well being. And so the twenty twenty two 190 00:10:31,276 --> 00:10:33,996 Speaker 2: administration of PISA does that. 191 00:10:34,556 --> 00:10:36,636 Speaker 1: So you had the PISA data set from twenty twenty two, 192 00:10:36,716 --> 00:10:37,316 Speaker 1: what did you find? 193 00:10:37,716 --> 00:10:42,476 Speaker 2: So for girls around the world, there's a significant link 194 00:10:42,596 --> 00:10:46,476 Speaker 2: between spending a lot of time on social media and 195 00:10:46,516 --> 00:10:50,796 Speaker 2: having lower life satisfaction. That was pretty universal across the 196 00:10:50,836 --> 00:10:55,396 Speaker 2: different regions. It was strongest in English speaking countries and 197 00:10:55,436 --> 00:10:59,636 Speaker 2: Western Europe. In Western Europe, for girls, heavy users were 198 00:10:59,796 --> 00:11:03,156 Speaker 2: sixty three percent more likely to report low life satisfaction 199 00:11:03,196 --> 00:11:06,116 Speaker 2: than light users. In Asia, they were forty six percent 200 00:11:06,156 --> 00:11:09,036 Speaker 2: more likely. Overall, you average across the world forty nine 201 00:11:09,116 --> 00:11:09,956 Speaker 2: percent more likely. 202 00:11:10,716 --> 00:11:12,916 Speaker 1: So so far, the piece of data lines up with 203 00:11:12,956 --> 00:11:16,156 Speaker 1: the idea that very heavy social media use isn't great 204 00:11:16,156 --> 00:11:19,476 Speaker 1: for teen girls well being, and the report heavy use 205 00:11:19,516 --> 00:11:22,076 Speaker 1: meant spending about five hours or more a day on 206 00:11:22,076 --> 00:11:25,676 Speaker 1: social media. But when Jane looked beyond girls, the story 207 00:11:25,716 --> 00:11:27,756 Speaker 1: started to get a little more complicated. 208 00:11:28,476 --> 00:11:30,396 Speaker 2: For boys, it was a little bit more of a 209 00:11:30,436 --> 00:11:34,276 Speaker 2: mixed picture. You do see a link, especially again in 210 00:11:34,356 --> 00:11:37,116 Speaker 2: the UK and Western Europe, that spending more time on 211 00:11:37,156 --> 00:11:39,836 Speaker 2: social media's link to lower life satisfaction, but that wasn't 212 00:11:39,916 --> 00:11:41,956 Speaker 2: universal In some regions. We don't see much of an 213 00:11:41,996 --> 00:11:45,236 Speaker 2: effect at all. For girls, it seems to have a 214 00:11:45,236 --> 00:11:49,916 Speaker 2: bigger impact on their happiness, their life satisfaction, their body image, 215 00:11:50,156 --> 00:11:51,676 Speaker 2: everything compared to boys. 216 00:11:52,076 --> 00:11:54,436 Speaker 1: But the strangest results came from the boys who were 217 00:11:54,436 --> 00:11:58,196 Speaker 1: the heaviest users of social media. Think seven plus hours 218 00:11:58,236 --> 00:11:59,756 Speaker 1: a day on these platforms. 219 00:12:00,116 --> 00:12:02,996 Speaker 2: There were some surprises in here, especially in the data 220 00:12:03,036 --> 00:12:08,036 Speaker 2: for boys. The heaviest users of social media also were 221 00:12:08,356 --> 00:12:10,516 Speaker 2: a little bit more likely to say that they had 222 00:12:10,516 --> 00:12:14,676 Speaker 2: the highest life satisfaction, So choosing a ten on the 223 00:12:14,756 --> 00:12:18,316 Speaker 2: zero to ten scale, that was a mystery that I'm 224 00:12:18,356 --> 00:12:22,076 Speaker 2: still trying to figure out. Danny Blanchflower, who's an economist 225 00:12:22,156 --> 00:12:27,076 Speaker 2: at Dartmouth, has worked with PISA. He noticed that, especially 226 00:12:27,116 --> 00:12:30,116 Speaker 2: for boys and especially in the non English speaking countries, 227 00:12:30,796 --> 00:12:33,316 Speaker 2: that those who were choosing a ten on life satisfaction 228 00:12:33,956 --> 00:12:37,756 Speaker 2: also had very low standardized test scores. Maybe there's a 229 00:12:37,796 --> 00:12:42,476 Speaker 2: reading comprehension problem, there's something going on there that I 230 00:12:42,476 --> 00:12:44,076 Speaker 2: don't know. We're still trying to figure out. 231 00:12:44,356 --> 00:12:46,716 Speaker 1: Another interesting thing you saw in the World Happiness Report data, 232 00:12:46,756 --> 00:12:48,516 Speaker 1: as I understand it is there was this little slight 233 00:12:48,596 --> 00:12:51,396 Speaker 1: bump in life satisfaction when teens were on social media 234 00:12:51,556 --> 00:12:53,276 Speaker 1: just a little bit. What was that about. 235 00:12:53,556 --> 00:12:55,996 Speaker 2: Yeah, So for girls, for examples where we really see 236 00:12:55,996 --> 00:12:59,356 Speaker 2: this pattern, and it's across most of the regions, those 237 00:12:59,516 --> 00:13:03,316 Speaker 2: who said that they used social media for less than 238 00:13:03,396 --> 00:13:07,436 Speaker 2: an hour a day had the highest mean life satisfaction. 239 00:13:08,076 --> 00:13:10,356 Speaker 2: It could be that yeah, if you're using social media 240 00:13:10,356 --> 00:13:13,196 Speaker 2: in that limited way, maybe you're just communicating with your 241 00:13:13,196 --> 00:13:15,236 Speaker 2: friends a little bit, seeing a couple funny videos, and 242 00:13:15,236 --> 00:13:18,236 Speaker 2: then getting off. But it's such an interesting pattern because 243 00:13:18,276 --> 00:13:20,596 Speaker 2: the mean life satisfaction is a little lower for the 244 00:13:20,676 --> 00:13:24,516 Speaker 2: non user's social media but at least for girls. We 245 00:13:24,596 --> 00:13:27,636 Speaker 2: also see in most regions that those who didn't use 246 00:13:27,636 --> 00:13:30,716 Speaker 2: social media at all were the most likely to have 247 00:13:30,836 --> 00:13:34,276 Speaker 2: that very high lighte satisfaction, choosing a ten on the 248 00:13:34,356 --> 00:13:35,516 Speaker 2: zero to ten scale. 249 00:13:36,516 --> 00:13:39,476 Speaker 1: So to clarify, on average, the happiest girls were the 250 00:13:39,556 --> 00:13:42,556 Speaker 1: light users of social media, the ones spending less than 251 00:13:42,596 --> 00:13:45,196 Speaker 1: an hour a day on these platforms. But when Jane 252 00:13:45,196 --> 00:13:48,076 Speaker 1: looked at the teens reporting the very highest life satisfaction 253 00:13:48,516 --> 00:13:51,196 Speaker 1: that perfect ten out of ten, those tended to be 254 00:13:51,276 --> 00:13:53,996 Speaker 1: the girls who said they didn't use social media at all. 255 00:13:54,116 --> 00:13:56,836 Speaker 2: So it's a little more complex than some of the 256 00:13:56,876 --> 00:13:59,676 Speaker 2: other studies on this topic across the world. 257 00:13:59,756 --> 00:14:03,676 Speaker 1: The report showed that, minus a few puzzling exceptions, heavy 258 00:14:03,796 --> 00:14:06,476 Speaker 1: use of social media is really not great for young 259 00:14:06,556 --> 00:14:09,436 Speaker 1: people's well being, which means that if we really care 260 00:14:09,476 --> 00:14:12,276 Speaker 1: about teen happiness, we should find ways to limit their 261 00:14:12,316 --> 00:14:14,836 Speaker 1: time on these platforms to less than an. 262 00:14:14,716 --> 00:14:15,356 Speaker 2: Hour a day. 263 00:14:16,036 --> 00:14:18,156 Speaker 1: But how on earth do you do that in a 264 00:14:18,196 --> 00:14:21,716 Speaker 1: world where these tools have become completely ubiquitous forms of 265 00:14:21,756 --> 00:14:25,876 Speaker 1: social connection and entertainment. We'll be back with Jane's answer 266 00:14:25,956 --> 00:14:29,156 Speaker 1: to that when the Happiness Lab returns from this quick break. 267 00:14:42,236 --> 00:14:45,796 Speaker 1: When psychologist Gene Twangy first began researching the connection between 268 00:14:45,796 --> 00:14:48,556 Speaker 1: social media and teen mental health, it was mostly an 269 00:14:48,556 --> 00:14:52,116 Speaker 1: academic question, but over time this issue has become much 270 00:14:52,196 --> 00:14:55,796 Speaker 1: more personal, both for her and for the three daughters 271 00:14:55,836 --> 00:14:59,356 Speaker 1: she's been raising. It's this family challenge that Jeane discusses 272 00:14:59,396 --> 00:15:02,316 Speaker 1: in her most recent book, Ten Rules for Raising Kids 273 00:15:02,396 --> 00:15:03,396 Speaker 1: in a High Tech World. 274 00:15:03,996 --> 00:15:07,316 Speaker 2: So in twenty sixteen when I was working on that 275 00:15:07,436 --> 00:15:12,516 Speaker 2: research day or nine, six and four, and now they're nineteen, 276 00:15:12,956 --> 00:15:13,956 Speaker 2: sixteen and fourteen. 277 00:15:14,236 --> 00:15:17,116 Speaker 1: So it seems like the adolescents you are studying have 278 00:15:17,236 --> 00:15:19,516 Speaker 1: turned into adolescents that are in your own life and 279 00:15:19,556 --> 00:15:21,956 Speaker 1: in your own home and who have their own technology 280 00:15:21,956 --> 00:15:24,676 Speaker 1: struggles in your house. Yeah, what's that been like? 281 00:15:24,876 --> 00:15:28,156 Speaker 2: It's been interesting. I mean, pretty much everybody I know 282 00:15:28,396 --> 00:15:31,156 Speaker 2: who's a kid over the age of about five, and 283 00:15:31,236 --> 00:15:34,196 Speaker 2: many with toddlers too, are struggling with this. And I 284 00:15:34,196 --> 00:15:37,396 Speaker 2: think it becomes especially hard, you know, late elementary school, 285 00:15:37,716 --> 00:15:41,556 Speaker 2: when more kids start to get smartphones, when more kids 286 00:15:41,596 --> 00:15:44,356 Speaker 2: end up having school laptops, and then middle school hits, 287 00:15:45,036 --> 00:15:48,076 Speaker 2: and then the smartphone seems to become almost the norm, 288 00:15:48,356 --> 00:15:52,996 Speaker 2: and so does the school laptop, and the devices are multiplying, 289 00:15:53,716 --> 00:15:57,996 Speaker 2: and it just becomes really hard. So the collision of 290 00:15:58,076 --> 00:16:00,556 Speaker 2: my research life and my life as a mom trying 291 00:16:00,596 --> 00:16:03,396 Speaker 2: to figure out how to stem this tide and how 292 00:16:03,436 --> 00:16:06,356 Speaker 2: to make the best choices for my own family resulted 293 00:16:06,396 --> 00:16:09,516 Speaker 2: in the Ten Rules Book. I was frustrated because so 294 00:16:09,596 --> 00:16:12,276 Speaker 2: much of the advice that was out there, whether it 295 00:16:12,316 --> 00:16:16,196 Speaker 2: was online or in other books or other experts documented in interviews, 296 00:16:16,276 --> 00:16:19,836 Speaker 2: it was squishy, like what age should a child get 297 00:16:19,836 --> 00:16:23,516 Speaker 2: a smartphone? It was it depends. So I've been asked 298 00:16:23,556 --> 00:16:25,996 Speaker 2: that for ten years. When I first got asked that, 299 00:16:26,036 --> 00:16:28,196 Speaker 2: I'm like, d're in the headlights. I have no idea. 300 00:16:28,876 --> 00:16:30,876 Speaker 2: So I kind of went back to the it depends, 301 00:16:30,916 --> 00:16:33,596 Speaker 2: and then I realized at some point that's actually horrible advice. 302 00:16:34,316 --> 00:16:36,996 Speaker 2: Can you imagine having this discussion with your twelve year old? 303 00:16:37,116 --> 00:16:38,716 Speaker 2: But we'll do this when you're ready. We'll do this 304 00:16:38,756 --> 00:16:41,276 Speaker 2: when you're the most pitch they're gonna bug you every 305 00:16:41,316 --> 00:16:44,476 Speaker 2: minute of every day, try to convince you that they're 306 00:16:44,516 --> 00:16:47,436 Speaker 2: ready and they're mature and so on. You need a 307 00:16:47,516 --> 00:16:51,036 Speaker 2: draw line in the sand, like we do for alcohol 308 00:16:51,076 --> 00:16:54,676 Speaker 2: and driving and everything else. With teenagers. Let's choose an 309 00:16:54,716 --> 00:16:58,596 Speaker 2: age and run with it, because that's easier if you 310 00:16:58,676 --> 00:17:00,396 Speaker 2: do you like we ended up doing in my house. 311 00:17:00,916 --> 00:17:04,276 Speaker 2: You get your first smartphone with your driver's license, then 312 00:17:04,276 --> 00:17:06,196 Speaker 2: that's it. It's a line in the sand. It's done. 313 00:17:06,436 --> 00:17:08,036 Speaker 2: Conversations over why. 314 00:17:07,876 --> 00:17:09,436 Speaker 1: Is the driver's license there? 315 00:17:09,836 --> 00:17:13,796 Speaker 2: So giving kids real world freedom, the ability to get 316 00:17:13,836 --> 00:17:18,316 Speaker 2: around on their own, which is another huge generational change 317 00:17:18,396 --> 00:17:20,676 Speaker 2: that kids and teens don't have as much independence as 318 00:17:20,716 --> 00:17:23,556 Speaker 2: they used to. High school seniors are a lot less 319 00:17:23,596 --> 00:17:26,236 Speaker 2: likely to have their driver's license now than they were 320 00:17:26,516 --> 00:17:30,876 Speaker 2: in the eighties, for example. And I like tying the 321 00:17:30,956 --> 00:17:35,876 Speaker 2: driver's license to the smartphone because you know, first smartphone 322 00:17:35,956 --> 00:17:38,236 Speaker 2: is a tool. It's useful when you start driving. I 323 00:17:38,316 --> 00:17:41,196 Speaker 2: like the Maps app is good to have that, but 324 00:17:41,196 --> 00:17:44,196 Speaker 2: it's also then it's not the choice that so many 325 00:17:44,236 --> 00:17:47,236 Speaker 2: teens have of well, I don't have that license, I 326 00:17:47,276 --> 00:17:49,596 Speaker 2: don't have a way to get around. I really want 327 00:17:49,636 --> 00:17:51,956 Speaker 2: to spend time with my friends. Mom and dad are busy. 328 00:17:51,996 --> 00:17:53,996 Speaker 2: They can't drive me, so let's just go on Snapchat. 329 00:17:54,636 --> 00:17:57,436 Speaker 2: So if the smartphones with the driver's license, then you 330 00:17:57,436 --> 00:18:00,276 Speaker 2: don't have that false choice. Then it's I can get 331 00:18:00,276 --> 00:18:02,036 Speaker 2: in that car and go do something with my friends. 332 00:18:02,116 --> 00:18:03,956 Speaker 1: But also gets the kids who are a little reluctant 333 00:18:03,996 --> 00:18:06,556 Speaker 1: to get their driver's license getting their driver's license, which. 334 00:18:06,396 --> 00:18:08,556 Speaker 2: Is awesome exactly. And I know that because that's my 335 00:18:08,596 --> 00:18:11,756 Speaker 2: sixteen years I don't think she would be motivated to 336 00:18:11,876 --> 00:18:14,436 Speaker 2: get that license if it wasn't or it being tied 337 00:18:14,476 --> 00:18:16,716 Speaker 2: to the phone. So interesting in a big steady you 338 00:18:16,716 --> 00:18:19,116 Speaker 2: can modify that if it's at least sixteen and getting 339 00:18:19,116 --> 00:18:22,076 Speaker 2: around the city, you know, on public transportation. I live 340 00:18:22,076 --> 00:18:24,116 Speaker 2: out in the suburbs, so it's the driver's license here, 341 00:18:24,156 --> 00:18:25,956 Speaker 2: but in the middle of New York it would be different. 342 00:18:26,236 --> 00:18:28,156 Speaker 1: And as you point out, as a society, we do 343 00:18:28,196 --> 00:18:30,196 Speaker 1: this for so many other things. When they're going to vote, 344 00:18:30,196 --> 00:18:32,396 Speaker 1: when can they join the military, when can they drive? 345 00:18:32,476 --> 00:18:34,836 Speaker 1: We have rules about this, and that's one of the 346 00:18:34,876 --> 00:18:36,836 Speaker 1: first things that you talk about in your book. Why 347 00:18:36,876 --> 00:18:39,476 Speaker 1: it's called ten Rules is that you argue that we. 348 00:18:39,396 --> 00:18:42,436 Speaker 2: Need rules, not just conversations and I always want to 349 00:18:42,476 --> 00:18:44,956 Speaker 2: say from the outset, we should have the conversations too. 350 00:18:45,396 --> 00:18:46,836 Speaker 2: I have a list of things you should talk to 351 00:18:46,876 --> 00:18:49,116 Speaker 2: your kid about in terms of you know, online safety 352 00:18:49,156 --> 00:18:52,316 Speaker 2: and everything else. But they're not enough. They're not enough 353 00:18:52,396 --> 00:18:55,716 Speaker 2: against the peer pressure, the billions of dollars at social 354 00:18:55,756 --> 00:18:59,036 Speaker 2: media companies apport into algorithms. It's just not enough. And 355 00:18:59,076 --> 00:19:01,436 Speaker 2: that's why it is helpful to have the rules to 356 00:19:02,116 --> 00:19:04,196 Speaker 2: try to do everything you can to keep them off 357 00:19:04,236 --> 00:19:07,676 Speaker 2: social media until they're at least sixteen, if not eighteen. 358 00:19:08,356 --> 00:19:10,596 Speaker 2: And that could be hard to do, but it is 359 00:19:10,676 --> 00:19:14,476 Speaker 2: easier if when you give them a phone, don't give 360 00:19:14,516 --> 00:19:17,556 Speaker 2: them an actual smartphone, give them a flip phone, or 361 00:19:17,596 --> 00:19:19,756 Speaker 2: give them well my kids have is a phone designed 362 00:19:19,756 --> 00:19:22,556 Speaker 2: for kids. I call them basic phones and calling it 363 00:19:22,596 --> 00:19:24,356 Speaker 2: a kid phone. Then they don't want to use it 364 00:19:24,956 --> 00:19:26,436 Speaker 2: even at ten. You know, oh, I don't want the 365 00:19:26,436 --> 00:19:29,796 Speaker 2: little kid phone. But those types of phones look like 366 00:19:29,836 --> 00:19:32,276 Speaker 2: an android phone, so they don't stand out as much. 367 00:19:32,876 --> 00:19:35,076 Speaker 2: They can still text their friends. So we have to 368 00:19:35,116 --> 00:19:37,196 Speaker 2: counter that narrative of like, if my kid doesn't have 369 00:19:37,236 --> 00:19:39,356 Speaker 2: a smartphone, or my kid doesn't have social media, they'll 370 00:19:39,356 --> 00:19:42,156 Speaker 2: be left out. I'm here to tell you it's not true. 371 00:19:42,436 --> 00:19:45,196 Speaker 2: Your kids can absolutely have friends and communicate with them 372 00:19:45,436 --> 00:19:48,676 Speaker 2: without social media, but there's generally in most of these 373 00:19:48,676 --> 00:19:52,756 Speaker 2: no internet browser, no social media, no gambling apps, no 374 00:19:52,836 --> 00:19:56,116 Speaker 2: dating apps, and no AI girlfriends and boyfriends. That last 375 00:19:56,156 --> 00:19:58,756 Speaker 2: one is the one that terrifies me the most these days, 376 00:19:59,116 --> 00:20:00,756 Speaker 2: is that if you hand your kid a smartphone with 377 00:20:00,836 --> 00:20:03,076 Speaker 2: no parental controls on it, there is nothing to stop 378 00:20:03,116 --> 00:20:06,356 Speaker 2: them from having their first romantic relationship romantic in quotes 379 00:20:06,836 --> 00:20:07,836 Speaker 2: with an AI chatbot. 380 00:20:09,156 --> 00:20:11,316 Speaker 1: Man, could you imagine if back in twenty sixteen, when 381 00:20:11,356 --> 00:20:12,876 Speaker 1: you were first looking at this, we knew that this 382 00:20:13,076 --> 00:20:15,316 Speaker 1: was like on the horizon, yet another thing to worry 383 00:20:15,356 --> 00:20:17,396 Speaker 1: about with our kids. It's incredible. 384 00:20:17,876 --> 00:20:23,276 Speaker 2: It's just becoming increasingly common for teens to be wanting 385 00:20:23,316 --> 00:20:26,836 Speaker 2: to do AI sexy chat, or AI girlfriends, or even 386 00:20:27,036 --> 00:20:30,556 Speaker 2: just for platonic friendship. They're turning to them for advice 387 00:20:31,036 --> 00:20:35,236 Speaker 2: and companionship. And we already have a loneliness crisis. We 388 00:20:35,276 --> 00:20:37,556 Speaker 2: already have a lot of teens who are alone in 389 00:20:37,636 --> 00:20:40,796 Speaker 2: their bedrooms way too much and not getting together with 390 00:20:41,236 --> 00:20:43,636 Speaker 2: friends in person. So what is that going to do 391 00:20:43,676 --> 00:20:47,076 Speaker 2: to their friendships and their relationships when they've had these 392 00:20:47,116 --> 00:20:52,276 Speaker 2: early experiences with these psychophantic chatbots that always tell them 393 00:20:52,276 --> 00:20:56,076 Speaker 2: they're right, that never sleep, that don't have any of 394 00:20:56,116 --> 00:21:01,636 Speaker 2: their own needs. It's really scary. It just reinforces and 395 00:21:01,876 --> 00:21:05,676 Speaker 2: makes even more important the need for having some concrete rules. 396 00:21:05,876 --> 00:21:07,956 Speaker 1: You know, you've talked about this idea that the adults 397 00:21:07,956 --> 00:21:10,596 Speaker 1: are in charge, which is your first choules, Why is 398 00:21:10,636 --> 00:21:11,996 Speaker 1: this so critical to remember? 399 00:21:12,396 --> 00:21:14,916 Speaker 2: Look, you know, I think a lot of parents now 400 00:21:14,956 --> 00:21:18,396 Speaker 2: and I put myself in this category when we have kids. 401 00:21:18,756 --> 00:21:20,676 Speaker 2: We think it's kind of weird that we're the authority 402 00:21:20,716 --> 00:21:23,316 Speaker 2: figure now, even if you wait till you're older to 403 00:21:23,356 --> 00:21:25,316 Speaker 2: have kids, like I did, you know, Like, wait, am 404 00:21:25,396 --> 00:21:27,476 Speaker 2: I in charge? Now? What's going on with this? We 405 00:21:27,516 --> 00:21:31,196 Speaker 2: live in an individualistic society. We live in an era 406 00:21:31,596 --> 00:21:34,556 Speaker 2: when we have the idea that everybody is equal, but 407 00:21:34,636 --> 00:21:36,676 Speaker 2: you're the parent and you have to take on a 408 00:21:36,716 --> 00:21:38,716 Speaker 2: little bit of a different role, and that feels unnatural 409 00:21:38,876 --> 00:21:41,636 Speaker 2: to a lot of us. I think our own parents 410 00:21:41,796 --> 00:21:45,076 Speaker 2: said no, and they said no a lot. Sometimes they 411 00:21:45,116 --> 00:21:47,356 Speaker 2: didn't even have a good reason, and yet we seem 412 00:21:47,516 --> 00:21:50,036 Speaker 2: kind of afraid to do that, especially with technology. 413 00:21:50,196 --> 00:21:52,716 Speaker 1: Problem is, then, of course parents are disappointing their kids, 414 00:21:52,756 --> 00:21:54,556 Speaker 1: and we send the short term. But this is something 415 00:21:54,556 --> 00:21:56,516 Speaker 1: you point out in the book as well, and also 416 00:21:56,556 --> 00:21:58,476 Speaker 1: something that we talk a lot about in the Happiness Lab. 417 00:21:59,036 --> 00:22:01,716 Speaker 1: The point of parenting is to not raise kids, but 418 00:22:01,796 --> 00:22:04,596 Speaker 1: to raise adults. Tell me about the advice that you 419 00:22:04,636 --> 00:22:06,516 Speaker 1: got with your own kids and how this ended up 420 00:22:06,516 --> 00:22:07,596 Speaker 1: sticking with you so much. 421 00:22:08,036 --> 00:22:10,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, at this point, I'm not sure I can even 422 00:22:10,716 --> 00:22:13,036 Speaker 2: remember who told me that, but it has stuck with 423 00:22:13,116 --> 00:22:17,076 Speaker 2: me ever since. It's such great advice that that is 424 00:22:17,116 --> 00:22:21,556 Speaker 2: your job to raise a successful adult. Your job is 425 00:22:21,596 --> 00:22:23,836 Speaker 2: not to make your kid happy at every single moment, 426 00:22:24,756 --> 00:22:27,036 Speaker 2: and that makes your job a little harder in some ways, 427 00:22:28,276 --> 00:22:30,716 Speaker 2: but even in kind of the short long term, it 428 00:22:30,756 --> 00:22:33,556 Speaker 2: can make your job easier because if you have those 429 00:22:33,676 --> 00:22:37,156 Speaker 2: roles and stick with them even when your kids are toddlers, 430 00:22:37,796 --> 00:22:41,956 Speaker 2: if you have said no and you have tried to 431 00:22:42,036 --> 00:22:45,596 Speaker 2: keep them safe not just in the real world but online, 432 00:22:46,156 --> 00:22:49,316 Speaker 2: and introduce technology later when they're more ready for it, 433 00:22:49,556 --> 00:22:52,476 Speaker 2: then they're less likely to have those mental health problems 434 00:22:52,556 --> 00:22:56,156 Speaker 2: and more likely to do all the other things we 435 00:22:56,196 --> 00:22:59,356 Speaker 2: need them to do, like sleep and spend time with 436 00:22:59,396 --> 00:23:03,436 Speaker 2: their friends in person, and exercise and maybe read a book. 437 00:23:03,436 --> 00:23:07,076 Speaker 2: Every once in a while and help them be more 438 00:23:07,116 --> 00:23:08,436 Speaker 2: successful adults. 439 00:23:09,196 --> 00:23:10,516 Speaker 1: So one of the ways you do that as a 440 00:23:10,596 --> 00:23:14,556 Speaker 1: parent is to set rules about technology free zones. What 441 00:23:14,636 --> 00:23:16,876 Speaker 1: are some of these zones that you recommend? Which ones 442 00:23:16,876 --> 00:23:17,836 Speaker 1: are the most important? 443 00:23:18,356 --> 00:23:20,756 Speaker 2: Well, the most important overall is no phones in the 444 00:23:20,756 --> 00:23:24,676 Speaker 2: bedroom overnight. It's just so important for people of all ages. 445 00:23:25,116 --> 00:23:27,556 Speaker 2: Tons of studies on this. People do not sleep as 446 00:23:27,596 --> 00:23:30,756 Speaker 2: well or as long if that phone is in the bedroom, 447 00:23:30,876 --> 00:23:35,396 Speaker 2: even if it's off, much less lighting up with notifications. 448 00:23:35,316 --> 00:23:37,996 Speaker 1: Around the holiday times. As a happiness expert, I'm often asked, 449 00:23:38,036 --> 00:23:39,996 Speaker 1: is there a particular gift we can give our kids 450 00:23:40,036 --> 00:23:41,836 Speaker 1: to make them the most happy? And I always say, 451 00:23:42,076 --> 00:23:44,756 Speaker 1: get them one of those old school alarm clocks, the 452 00:23:44,796 --> 00:23:47,796 Speaker 1: plastic kind underte happiness boosting gift. 453 00:23:48,396 --> 00:23:51,956 Speaker 2: Yes, my youngest who's fourteen, that actually was one of 454 00:23:51,956 --> 00:23:55,956 Speaker 2: her big Christmas gifts was a very fancy alarm clock 455 00:23:56,116 --> 00:23:58,876 Speaker 2: that lights up with sunlight and you can wake up 456 00:23:58,916 --> 00:24:02,276 Speaker 2: to different noises or there was one, and this was 457 00:24:02,396 --> 00:24:06,956 Speaker 2: especially great because we live in southern California. That went, dude, cude, 458 00:24:06,996 --> 00:24:08,556 Speaker 2: it's time to wake up. 459 00:24:10,716 --> 00:24:12,996 Speaker 1: I love that. I think one of the most dastardly 460 00:24:13,036 --> 00:24:15,196 Speaker 1: things cell phone companies ever did was to put an 461 00:24:15,196 --> 00:24:17,396 Speaker 1: alarm clock in your phone, because then you think you 462 00:24:17,436 --> 00:24:20,836 Speaker 1: can have it when you're sleeping there. So far, we've 463 00:24:20,876 --> 00:24:23,636 Speaker 1: talked about what individual families can do to protect kids' 464 00:24:23,636 --> 00:24:25,876 Speaker 1: mental health. But when we get back from the break, 465 00:24:26,036 --> 00:24:28,356 Speaker 1: we'll zoom out. We'll look at what we should all 466 00:24:28,396 --> 00:24:30,996 Speaker 1: be doing as a society to deal with this challenge. 467 00:24:31,436 --> 00:24:34,556 Speaker 1: We'll also hear what even experts like Gene sometimes struggle 468 00:24:34,596 --> 00:24:37,636 Speaker 1: to follow their own advice when it comes to limiting technology. 469 00:24:38,236 --> 00:24:52,756 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab, we'll be right back. One of the 470 00:24:52,796 --> 00:24:55,996 Speaker 1: most important places where experts are tackling kids growing dependence 471 00:24:56,036 --> 00:24:59,116 Speaker 1: on smartphones is in schools, where the battle for kids 472 00:24:59,156 --> 00:25:02,356 Speaker 1: attention is happening in real time. And the last year, 473 00:25:02,596 --> 00:25:05,636 Speaker 1: many districts across the country have begun experimenting with a 474 00:25:05,676 --> 00:25:09,076 Speaker 1: band on phones during the school day. But I asked 475 00:25:09,116 --> 00:25:12,476 Speaker 1: psychologists Gene Twangy do those bands actually make a. 476 00:25:12,396 --> 00:25:16,076 Speaker 2: Difference, So that research is still emerging. We really only 477 00:25:16,116 --> 00:25:18,396 Speaker 2: have a few good studies, but they tend to point 478 00:25:18,436 --> 00:25:21,756 Speaker 2: toward mental health benefits, especially for girls. And then academic 479 00:25:22,396 --> 00:25:25,396 Speaker 2: is where you get the biggest benefits of no phones 480 00:25:25,476 --> 00:25:28,676 Speaker 2: during the school day. Bell to bell, because then you 481 00:25:28,796 --> 00:25:33,116 Speaker 2: preserve the social time of lunch and passing periods for students. 482 00:25:33,836 --> 00:25:37,636 Speaker 2: It's actually easier to enforce if it's the blanket bell 483 00:25:37,676 --> 00:25:40,356 Speaker 2: de bell ban as opposed to classroom by classroom, the 484 00:25:40,516 --> 00:25:42,956 Speaker 2: teachers don't have to police it. There's also a bunch 485 00:25:42,996 --> 00:25:44,996 Speaker 2: of studies on high school and college students that even 486 00:25:45,036 --> 00:25:48,636 Speaker 2: expand that to say, hey, even laptops, tablets. These are 487 00:25:48,676 --> 00:25:51,036 Speaker 2: also a problem that when people take notes on paper 488 00:25:51,316 --> 00:25:54,556 Speaker 2: they get better grades, especially on comprehensive exams. It's that 489 00:25:54,676 --> 00:25:58,076 Speaker 2: deep understanding that seems to be compromised when people are 490 00:25:58,076 --> 00:26:01,716 Speaker 2: distracted by electronic devices, and we have to think about 491 00:26:01,756 --> 00:26:03,956 Speaker 2: this talking about the PISA data set, well, one of 492 00:26:04,036 --> 00:26:06,116 Speaker 2: the main things that's come out of the PISA data 493 00:26:06,156 --> 00:26:08,276 Speaker 2: set in the last couple of years is that test 494 00:26:08,276 --> 00:26:11,556 Speaker 2: scores are down the world, and those declines aren't just 495 00:26:11,636 --> 00:26:15,036 Speaker 2: due to the pandemic. They started around twenty twelve, just 496 00:26:15,116 --> 00:26:17,636 Speaker 2: like all of these other trends. Another project that I 497 00:26:17,636 --> 00:26:20,476 Speaker 2: did with the piece of data set was the twenty 498 00:26:20,516 --> 00:26:23,756 Speaker 2: twenty two you survey had a question asking students how 499 00:26:23,836 --> 00:26:27,596 Speaker 2: much time they spent using electronic devices for leisure purposes 500 00:26:27,636 --> 00:26:31,316 Speaker 2: on non educational purposes during the school day, and the 501 00:26:31,356 --> 00:26:33,676 Speaker 2: countries where the students were spending a lot of time 502 00:26:33,716 --> 00:26:36,676 Speaker 2: for leisure purposes on electronic devices during the school day 503 00:26:36,916 --> 00:26:40,156 Speaker 2: had a much more severe decline in those standardized test scores. 504 00:26:41,116 --> 00:26:43,196 Speaker 1: I mean, especially being a professor at Yale, I always 505 00:26:43,236 --> 00:26:45,076 Speaker 1: get parents telling me, oh, what can my kids do 506 00:26:45,116 --> 00:26:47,716 Speaker 1: to boost their academic performance. It's like, fight and get 507 00:26:47,796 --> 00:26:50,636 Speaker 1: phones out of your schools. That's going to help significantly. 508 00:26:50,956 --> 00:26:53,196 Speaker 2: The idea of no phones during the school day has 509 00:26:53,236 --> 00:26:56,916 Speaker 2: really gained traction in the last year or so, and 510 00:26:57,276 --> 00:26:58,916 Speaker 2: a lot of schools are having a lot of success 511 00:26:58,956 --> 00:27:01,956 Speaker 2: with that. They're seeing kids paying more attention in class, 512 00:27:02,356 --> 00:27:05,236 Speaker 2: they're talking at launch. They're finding, especially after the initial 513 00:27:05,276 --> 00:27:08,836 Speaker 2: adjustment period, actually fewer discipline issues because there's not the 514 00:27:08,876 --> 00:27:11,276 Speaker 2: draw I'm over social media and other things. So that's 515 00:27:11,596 --> 00:27:12,636 Speaker 2: really a good development. 516 00:27:12,916 --> 00:27:16,036 Speaker 1: So that's the no phone zones. But sometimes when I 517 00:27:16,116 --> 00:27:18,676 Speaker 1: hear the retorts parents go to and they're like, no, no, no, 518 00:27:18,716 --> 00:27:21,196 Speaker 1: my kid needs a phone. One I often hear is like, 519 00:27:21,516 --> 00:27:22,796 Speaker 1: I have to give my kid a phone so I 520 00:27:22,796 --> 00:27:25,196 Speaker 1: can get in touch with them. There are fears that 521 00:27:25,276 --> 00:27:28,076 Speaker 1: parents have about, you know, school shootings and these awful things, 522 00:27:28,196 --> 00:27:28,636 Speaker 1: but they're. 523 00:27:28,516 --> 00:27:31,076 Speaker 2: Actually safe for without access to a phone in that situation. 524 00:27:31,636 --> 00:27:35,036 Speaker 2: School safety experts are pretty unanimous on that, because phones 525 00:27:35,076 --> 00:27:37,476 Speaker 2: get make noise and alert shooters to where people are hiding, 526 00:27:37,796 --> 00:27:40,476 Speaker 2: they can tie up bandwidth that is needed for police 527 00:27:40,676 --> 00:27:44,236 Speaker 2: and first responders. And if they contact their parents, which 528 00:27:44,396 --> 00:27:46,996 Speaker 2: like sounds comforting but isn't really going to help. In fact, 529 00:27:46,996 --> 00:27:49,116 Speaker 2: it's going to hurt because then parents are going to 530 00:27:49,196 --> 00:27:51,156 Speaker 2: rush to the school, and then the police and the 531 00:27:51,196 --> 00:27:52,356 Speaker 2: ambulances can't get through. 532 00:27:52,876 --> 00:27:55,276 Speaker 1: You've also argued that you're just solving one problem, but 533 00:27:55,436 --> 00:27:57,316 Speaker 1: at the expense of lots of others. What do you 534 00:27:57,356 --> 00:27:57,796 Speaker 1: mean there? 535 00:27:58,516 --> 00:28:00,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think this is a dilemma a lot 536 00:28:00,196 --> 00:28:03,356 Speaker 2: of parents have faced. You know, there's this very strong 537 00:28:04,036 --> 00:28:07,476 Speaker 2: belief today that your kid has to have a phone 538 00:28:07,516 --> 00:28:11,676 Speaker 2: to be safe. It's more about the parents anxiety than 539 00:28:11,716 --> 00:28:14,316 Speaker 2: it is the kid's safety in many, many, many cases. 540 00:28:15,116 --> 00:28:19,036 Speaker 2: You know, admittedly there are practical reasons, especially once your 541 00:28:19,156 --> 00:28:21,396 Speaker 2: kid gets a little bit older and they're traveling around more, 542 00:28:21,396 --> 00:28:22,756 Speaker 2: that you might want to get in touch with them, 543 00:28:23,556 --> 00:28:25,956 Speaker 2: but you try to solve that problem by giving them 544 00:28:25,956 --> 00:28:29,356 Speaker 2: a smartphone. In many cases without any parntal controls on it, 545 00:28:29,436 --> 00:28:31,196 Speaker 2: and you create a problem that's going to be happening 546 00:28:31,236 --> 00:28:33,716 Speaker 2: eight hours a day, every day, which is that your 547 00:28:33,756 --> 00:28:36,036 Speaker 2: kid's going to be staring at that phone all the time. 548 00:28:36,356 --> 00:28:40,276 Speaker 2: Whether that's social media or texting or the internet or 549 00:28:40,316 --> 00:28:45,236 Speaker 2: games whatever, You're creating two hundred other problems. Part of 550 00:28:45,276 --> 00:28:47,796 Speaker 2: it is, you know, is a lot of people talk 551 00:28:47,796 --> 00:28:51,236 Speaker 2: about it's a collective action problem. I am hopeful about 552 00:28:51,236 --> 00:28:54,756 Speaker 2: there being more regulation and more laws, especially for minors, 553 00:28:54,956 --> 00:28:59,196 Speaker 2: around social media and AI chatbots. I don't know when 554 00:28:59,476 --> 00:29:02,396 Speaker 2: or if that'll happen in the US, but Australia took 555 00:29:02,436 --> 00:29:04,836 Speaker 2: that bold first step of doing that for social media, 556 00:29:04,916 --> 00:29:07,636 Speaker 2: making it sixteen and they have to verify age. So 557 00:29:07,676 --> 00:29:09,716 Speaker 2: I'm hoping that that will catch on that more and 558 00:29:09,716 --> 00:29:11,796 Speaker 2: more countries will do that, because I think that would 559 00:29:11,836 --> 00:29:15,156 Speaker 2: make an enormous difference for kids and for their parents. 560 00:29:15,356 --> 00:29:17,876 Speaker 2: If nobody fifteen and under was on social media. 561 00:29:18,516 --> 00:29:20,956 Speaker 1: I'm guessing at least some parents might be listening right 562 00:29:20,956 --> 00:29:23,516 Speaker 1: now and thinking, oh crap, I already gave my thirteen 563 00:29:23,556 --> 00:29:25,676 Speaker 1: year old a phone. What do I do? What if 564 00:29:25,716 --> 00:29:27,796 Speaker 1: it's too late? What advice do you have for those parents? 565 00:29:27,916 --> 00:29:30,796 Speaker 2: So I get that question a lot, and sometimes people 566 00:29:30,836 --> 00:29:32,316 Speaker 2: are resigned about it. They're like, oh, you can't put 567 00:29:32,316 --> 00:29:34,676 Speaker 2: the genie back in the bottle. Well, yeah you can. 568 00:29:35,036 --> 00:29:37,996 Speaker 2: You're the parent, you pay that bill. You absolutely can. 569 00:29:38,556 --> 00:29:41,436 Speaker 2: So when I get this question, I usually ask first, 570 00:29:41,476 --> 00:29:43,196 Speaker 2: you know how old a child are we talking about? 571 00:29:43,436 --> 00:29:46,636 Speaker 2: So we're talking about a fifteen year old, I'm like, okay, sure, 572 00:29:47,036 --> 00:29:49,116 Speaker 2: but put some pretty strict controls on it, like no 573 00:29:49,236 --> 00:29:52,476 Speaker 2: downloading apps, you can't use it for anything but calling 574 00:29:52,516 --> 00:29:55,556 Speaker 2: after nine pm or something like that. But if you're 575 00:29:55,596 --> 00:29:59,036 Speaker 2: talking about thirteen and under, take it back and give 576 00:29:59,036 --> 00:30:02,556 Speaker 2: them a basic phone and say I made a mistake, 577 00:30:03,036 --> 00:30:05,316 Speaker 2: and that's on me. I'm going to give you this 578 00:30:05,396 --> 00:30:06,796 Speaker 2: fun You're still going to be able to text your 579 00:30:06,796 --> 00:30:09,556 Speaker 2: friends on it if you want to have a couple games, maybe, 580 00:30:09,596 --> 00:30:12,236 Speaker 2: but they'll have a time limit and it's this phone 581 00:30:12,356 --> 00:30:15,276 Speaker 2: or nothing. Most kids will say, Okay, that's cool. I 582 00:30:15,276 --> 00:30:16,916 Speaker 2: want a phone where I can text my friends as 583 00:30:16,916 --> 00:30:17,716 Speaker 2: opposed to nothing. 584 00:30:17,836 --> 00:30:19,676 Speaker 1: I also like this idea of just admitting as a 585 00:30:19,716 --> 00:30:21,676 Speaker 1: parent that you know you made a mistake. These tools 586 00:30:21,676 --> 00:30:23,316 Speaker 1: are new. You're trying to figure it out too, and 587 00:30:23,356 --> 00:30:25,276 Speaker 1: what your goal is is to do what's best for them, 588 00:30:25,316 --> 00:30:26,476 Speaker 1: what's safest for them. 589 00:30:26,516 --> 00:30:29,116 Speaker 2: And you know the reaction is going to depend on 590 00:30:29,156 --> 00:30:32,156 Speaker 2: the kid. For some kids it might be volcanic, which 591 00:30:32,756 --> 00:30:35,316 Speaker 2: shows in many cases that there is kind of an 592 00:30:35,316 --> 00:30:38,916 Speaker 2: addiction problem here. If the reactions that extreme. It does happen, 593 00:30:39,596 --> 00:30:43,556 Speaker 2: but it will go away, it will extinguish. It's just 594 00:30:43,596 --> 00:30:44,596 Speaker 2: going to take a little time. 595 00:30:44,956 --> 00:30:47,596 Speaker 1: And you're parenting for the future. You're parenting for the future. 596 00:30:47,636 --> 00:30:49,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, for it, that's right, And that's what you got 597 00:30:49,196 --> 00:30:49,676 Speaker 2: to think about. 598 00:30:49,836 --> 00:30:51,916 Speaker 1: I'm also curious. We've already talked a little bit about 599 00:30:51,916 --> 00:30:55,396 Speaker 1: the mechanisms that increase young people's prevalence of depression and 600 00:30:55,436 --> 00:30:59,036 Speaker 1: anxiety and things like that. Do those mechanisms stop, Like 601 00:30:59,236 --> 00:31:02,276 Speaker 1: are they just as bad for adults, people in midlife 602 00:31:02,276 --> 00:31:03,196 Speaker 1: and older too? Do? 603 00:31:03,236 --> 00:31:06,036 Speaker 2: We know there's not quite as much data on older adults, 604 00:31:06,076 --> 00:31:08,916 Speaker 2: but there's a good amount. And those studies also show 605 00:31:08,956 --> 00:31:12,116 Speaker 2: that the more hours a day someone spending on social media, 606 00:31:12,156 --> 00:31:15,276 Speaker 2: or the more frequently they check social media, that the 607 00:31:15,356 --> 00:31:17,276 Speaker 2: more likely they are to be depressed and lonely. 608 00:31:17,876 --> 00:31:19,836 Speaker 1: We've talked about all the strategies and the rules you 609 00:31:19,836 --> 00:31:23,196 Speaker 1: bring to your kids. Do adults need rules too? And 610 00:31:23,236 --> 00:31:25,316 Speaker 1: do you follow the rules all the time yourself? 611 00:31:26,196 --> 00:31:30,116 Speaker 2: So I didn't have any social media at all until 612 00:31:30,196 --> 00:31:33,996 Speaker 2: right before my igen book came out in twenty seventeen, ironically, 613 00:31:34,036 --> 00:31:37,236 Speaker 2: because that's my book that talked about social media for 614 00:31:37,316 --> 00:31:41,156 Speaker 2: mental health, because I went to a meeting with my 615 00:31:41,236 --> 00:31:47,076 Speaker 2: publisher and the young social media and marketing manager said, 616 00:31:47,076 --> 00:31:49,836 Speaker 2: am I spelling your name wrong? Because it looks like 617 00:31:49,916 --> 00:31:53,036 Speaker 2: you don't have any social media? And I said, that's right. 618 00:31:53,076 --> 00:31:55,076 Speaker 2: I'm the last person or my generation who never had 619 00:31:55,076 --> 00:31:58,036 Speaker 2: a Facebook page. So yeah, I don't have any, and 620 00:31:58,556 --> 00:32:03,156 Speaker 2: I don't really want any. He's like, well, you probably 621 00:32:03,156 --> 00:32:06,836 Speaker 2: need to get something. Okay. At the time, this doesn't 622 00:32:06,876 --> 00:32:09,916 Speaker 2: as true anymore. But at the time, the platform that 623 00:32:09,996 --> 00:32:13,796 Speaker 2: was most used by academics and journalists. So I joined Twitter, 624 00:32:14,916 --> 00:32:18,916 Speaker 2: and yeah, it was Dickens. It was the best and worst. 625 00:32:19,356 --> 00:32:21,876 Speaker 2: I made some connections to that platform, was with other 626 00:32:21,916 --> 00:32:25,676 Speaker 2: academics that were really beneficial. But there was a lot 627 00:32:25,676 --> 00:32:28,996 Speaker 2: of really bad stuff, really bad stuff, and it is 628 00:32:29,036 --> 00:32:34,236 Speaker 2: now even more dumpster fire than ever. So I don't 629 00:32:34,236 --> 00:32:36,156 Speaker 2: spend a lot of time on it anymore. I do 630 00:32:36,236 --> 00:32:38,476 Speaker 2: go and look at it, and it is I've learned 631 00:32:38,476 --> 00:32:41,356 Speaker 2: a few things every once in a while, and I 632 00:32:41,396 --> 00:32:44,756 Speaker 2: still post occasionally. But I mean, there was a reason 633 00:32:44,756 --> 00:32:46,516 Speaker 2: why I chose not to have any social media to 634 00:32:46,516 --> 00:32:49,356 Speaker 2: begin with. I think I have an addictive personality. I'm 635 00:32:49,356 --> 00:32:53,556 Speaker 2: compulsive about certain things, and you know, at its height 636 00:32:53,756 --> 00:32:56,116 Speaker 2: when I was using it, maybe in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, 637 00:32:56,156 --> 00:32:58,876 Speaker 2: a little bit more, it became that and I did 638 00:32:58,876 --> 00:33:01,996 Speaker 2: not like that. But I'm sure they would have loved 639 00:33:01,996 --> 00:33:05,236 Speaker 2: it if I was putting up Instagram reels, and to them, 640 00:33:05,236 --> 00:33:06,476 Speaker 2: I probably should be doing that. 641 00:33:06,836 --> 00:33:09,276 Speaker 1: Should for the success of the book. But right there's 642 00:33:09,276 --> 00:33:10,596 Speaker 1: little hypocrisy there of. 643 00:33:10,636 --> 00:33:14,476 Speaker 2: The absolutely absolutely so. I mean part of it is, Yeah, 644 00:33:14,516 --> 00:33:17,476 Speaker 2: with the topic, it would be somewhat ironic, but I'm 645 00:33:17,476 --> 00:33:19,476 Speaker 2: sure it would sell books. But would it be good 646 00:33:19,476 --> 00:33:21,716 Speaker 2: for my mental health to be making the video and 647 00:33:21,716 --> 00:33:25,076 Speaker 2: then worrying about how many views or likes it got, No, 648 00:33:25,756 --> 00:33:26,156 Speaker 2: it would not. 649 00:33:27,876 --> 00:33:30,476 Speaker 1: If there's one takeaway from all this research is that 650 00:33:30,556 --> 00:33:33,836 Speaker 1: technology itself isn't the enemy. But in a world where 651 00:33:33,836 --> 00:33:36,396 Speaker 1: our phones are within reach twenty four to seven, the 652 00:33:36,436 --> 00:33:39,716 Speaker 1: limits we set around them do really matter. And that 653 00:33:39,796 --> 00:33:42,596 Speaker 1: applies whether we're a teen, an adult, or even a 654 00:33:42,636 --> 00:33:46,436 Speaker 1: researcher studying these questions directly. For more tips on how 655 00:33:46,436 --> 00:33:49,956 Speaker 1: to develop a healthier relationship with smartphones, check out Jean's 656 00:33:49,996 --> 00:33:53,036 Speaker 1: newest book, Ten Rules for Raising Kids in a High 657 00:33:53,036 --> 00:33:56,796 Speaker 1: Tech World. If you have thoughts about today's episode or 658 00:33:56,836 --> 00:33:59,556 Speaker 1: about the connection between social media and mental health, we'd 659 00:33:59,596 --> 00:34:02,316 Speaker 1: love to hear them. You can email us at Happiness 660 00:34:02,396 --> 00:34:05,236 Speaker 1: Lab at Pushkin dot fm, or leave us a review 661 00:34:05,276 --> 00:34:07,916 Speaker 1: and tell us what resonated. You can also sign up 662 00:34:07,956 --> 00:34:10,396 Speaker 1: to learn more about the science of happiness and join 663 00:34:10,476 --> 00:34:14,556 Speaker 1: my free newsletter on my website, Doctor Lauri Santos dot com. 664 00:34:14,916 --> 00:34:17,476 Speaker 1: That's d R l A U R I E S 665 00:34:17,476 --> 00:34:19,876 Speaker 1: A N t O s dot com. And if you're 666 00:34:19,916 --> 00:34:22,236 Speaker 1: curious to learn more about what's in this year's World 667 00:34:22,276 --> 00:34:25,516 Speaker 1: Happiness Report, then tune in next week because we'll be 668 00:34:25,516 --> 00:34:29,476 Speaker 1: speaking with world renowned legal scholar doctor Cas Sunstein about 669 00:34:29,476 --> 00:34:30,716 Speaker 1: his chapter and the report. 670 00:34:31,236 --> 00:34:34,916 Speaker 2: People are trapped. They are kind of forced into a 671 00:34:34,956 --> 00:34:38,676 Speaker 2: situation where they're on social media, even though they would 672 00:34:38,756 --> 00:34:41,516 Speaker 2: be happier social media didn't exist. 673 00:34:42,316 --> 00:34:44,916 Speaker 1: That's in the next episode of The Happiness Lab with 674 00:34:45,036 --> 00:34:47,076 Speaker 1: me Doctor Laurie Santos