Speaker 1: Welcome to Ruthie's Table four, a production of iHeartRadio and
Speaker 1: Adamized Studios.
Speaker 2: Welcome that the lemons tarp it isn't it it is?
Speaker 3: And what's that one?
Speaker 4: So that's that alms Tara praes and then it has
Speaker 4: loads of strawberries on downstairs and dusted with isa chupka.
Speaker 2: It is really good. It's actually I really like Bella.
Speaker 2: Mackie and her family have been close friends for thirty
Speaker 2: or so years, and when you're close to a family,
Speaker 2: you're close to their food. We all spent summer's footsteps
Speaker 2: away from each other's homes in the Baldorcha, swimming, walking
Speaker 2: and attempting to read novels between long lunches, late dinners
Speaker 2: Negroni's in the Piazza and Pienza and montepl Channel. Bella
Speaker 2: was always present, frying zucchini flowers with me, puring the
Speaker 2: white peaches for sunset Bellini's. There was one night when
Speaker 2: our children noticed that we had no urmissue from the
Speaker 2: night before. When they heard it was in her family fridge,
Speaker 2: they climbed through the bushes and at midnight broke into
Speaker 2: their house and took it back. Bella is no longer
Speaker 2: just the daughter of our friends. She's my friend. When
Speaker 2: she and her husband Greg come to the River Cafe,
Speaker 2: they know the food they want to eat, the wine
Speaker 2: they wish to drink, and they always request a quiet
Speaker 2: table where they can just be together. Ask any young
Speaker 2: person working in the restaurant about Bella's books and they'll
Speaker 2: tell you that Jogon shaped their life in a crisis,
Speaker 2: or How to Kill Your Family was one of those
Speaker 2: books they could just not put down. Today in the
Speaker 2: River Cafe, Bella and I will talk about running families,
Speaker 2: Tuscan holidays and facing everything else. Welcome Bella, Hi, It's so.
Speaker 3: Nice to be here.
Speaker 2: What have you been doing. You've been in the kitchen
Speaker 2: making Richie Terrelli, the Richarelli. We started doing biscuits. We
Speaker 2: didn't used to do biscuits. We kind of did them
Speaker 2: in lockdown when we started the shop because people wanted
Speaker 2: to buy cookies basically. And then the rich Arelli are
Speaker 2: so interesting because they you and I both lived so
Speaker 2: close to Siena, and there's always that trip to Sienna
Speaker 2: that we would take in the summer. And I think
Speaker 2: that you know, rich Areli are like their hometown biscuit.
Speaker 2: You go to every bar in Siena, and it's so
Speaker 2: local Italy that if you probably went to a bar
Speaker 2: twenty miles away, they wouldn't have them. But every single
Speaker 2: bar in Sienna has Richirelli.
Speaker 4: Hi, I'm Polly. I am a chef here at the
Speaker 4: River Cafe Pastry kitchen, and I'm here with the lovely
Speaker 4: Bella Mackie teaching her how to make rich relly.
Speaker 3: See, they look amazing. I've made them a few times before,
Speaker 3: so mimonium didn't look like.
Speaker 4: That, Okay, So I would say it's probably when an
Speaker 4: issue of packing it with icing sugar.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it'd be like eight times more icing sugar
Speaker 3: than you thing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, way more. And then you're almost kind of like
Speaker 4: put a little hat on it. Why don't know, show
Speaker 4: you had to do that. When I say you give
Speaker 4: it a little hat, you kind of tuck it under
Speaker 4: the icing sugar.
Speaker 3: Oh I see, give it a little dough. It's like
Speaker 3: it's like a tree covered in snow.
Speaker 4: That is it exactly, And I think classically it is
Speaker 4: a Christmas biscuit as well, so very good.
Speaker 3: That will happened to the icing sugar on the top,
Speaker 3: like the hat when it goes into the oven, will
Speaker 3: it fall down?
Speaker 4: So as the biscuit kind of spreads out and cracks,
Speaker 4: as you can see with the ones, So we've we've
Speaker 4: got dord that icing sugar kind of seeps into it
Speaker 4: and dries that crust out right, and that's where you're
Speaker 4: getting the cracking. It's where you're getting the nice like
Speaker 4: little bit of tan color like under the actual icing sugar.
Speaker 3: This is amazing.
Speaker 4: Cubits you can go wrong with ritually is not making
Speaker 4: sure that the meringue has been taken far enough, so
Speaker 4: it needs to really be like a stiff peak because
Speaker 4: it can be quite like slack and that makes it
Speaker 4: extra soggy, or you get.
Speaker 3: That thing where you think the top of your meringue
Speaker 3: is perfect and you look underneath and there's like water
Speaker 3: still almost so sad.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so make sure I'd always take it a couple
Speaker 4: of extra minutes and you think tomorrow. And then the
Speaker 4: second bit is making sure it's compacted and covered enough
Speaker 4: with the iced sugar.
Speaker 2: And one of the things that I've learned is that
Speaker 2: baking is your passion because I think it's very interesting.
Speaker 2: Why does you know Polly become a pastry chef instead
Speaker 2: of a cook where she could make feel shins and everything.
Speaker 2: There's a love of baking and pastry. What is yours?
Speaker 3: I think it's pastry and baking because I find it
Speaker 3: so intricate, and I feel like the intricacy of it,
Speaker 3: the kind of layers and the steps and the fiddliness
Speaker 3: of it really takes me out of my brain for
Speaker 3: a while. So I always if I feel anxious or overwhelmed,
Speaker 3: I'll always go into the kitchen. I find myself looking
Speaker 3: through resting books and finding something complicated.
Speaker 2: So let's go back to growing up with food. And
Speaker 2: so I know you know both your parents work, Both
Speaker 2: your parents were, they love to eat. There was you
Speaker 2: and your sister. So tell me what was sort of
Speaker 2: growing up in your household food wise? Would you say,
Speaker 2: what are your memories?
Speaker 3: So what I can remember from early childhood is my
Speaker 3: grandpa was a farmer on my mom's side, so we
Speaker 3: were up in Scotland quite a lot on the farm
Speaker 3: and it was very meaty and it was very traditional,
Speaker 3: you know, everything kind of meat, like mainly pork and beef.
Speaker 3: But he didn't think that a meal was a meal
Speaker 3: without meat, so meat for breakfast, meat for lunch, meat
Speaker 3: for dinner, breakfast. Yeah, he had a breakfast sausages and sausages, bacon,
Speaker 3: you know. I mean that he used to have a
Speaker 3: buffet tray where there was you know, every type of meat,
Speaker 3: there were eggs. I mean it was he was a
Speaker 3: big eater, so it was you know, it was a
Speaker 3: big tray and.
Speaker 2: Had somebody cook that or did he cook it?
Speaker 3: And grandmother, my grandma, my mom, like everyone would muck
Speaker 3: in and cook and then it would be presented to
Speaker 3: all the cousins. It was a big family, so we
Speaker 3: would eat. There would be a lot of food, and
Speaker 3: very big on potatoes Scotland because he was a potato farmer.
Speaker 2: So we're still at breakfast.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're still at breakfast. Yeah. Yeah, fried potatoes, yeah yeah,
Speaker 3: so neaps and tatties and then you know, again, lunch
Speaker 3: was meat, dinner was meat. So that was kind of
Speaker 3: the the traditional food that I ate kind of with
Speaker 3: my enlarged family.
Speaker 2: And then did you lived to an old age?
Speaker 3: Yeah, ninety seven. Drank a lot of whiskey, ate a
Speaker 3: lot of meat, and was kind of an enormous horse
Speaker 3: of a man, and yeah, why not, you know, I
Speaker 3: mean it's not a coincidence that I would say ninety
Speaker 3: percent of his descendants are vegetarians. Oh really yeah, oh
Speaker 3: your cousins, yeah, or my cousins to my aunt's, my mom.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And actually I became a vegetarian because we were staying
Speaker 3: on a farm for his ninetieth birthday and I looked
Speaker 3: into the eyes of a cow and I thought, oh,
Speaker 3: I can't do that anymore. So yeah, and I never
Speaker 3: told you twenty five, never told him because I thought
Speaker 3: he would hate that more than yeah real, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: And then at home, Yeah, they both worked, and I
Speaker 3: think we ate quite a lot of kind of you know,
Speaker 3: macaroni and cheese, spaghetti, you know. But again, the only
Speaker 3: thing I can really remember from when I was really
Speaker 3: young is just desperately trying to buy sweets all the time.
Speaker 3: And I was a really fussy kid, and I mainly
Speaker 3: only liked white food, so I really liked chips, bread, pasta,
Speaker 3: and I was kind of really fussy right up into
Speaker 3: my twenties. I was a kind of really limited eater.
Speaker 3: And if you'd kind of offered me, I don't know,
Speaker 3: you know, hummus, I would have said no. Yeah, I
Speaker 3: had such a bland boring diet of kind of junk food, bread,
Speaker 3: carby starchy things, and I was incredibly unadventurous and yeah,
Speaker 3: and that took me really into my twenties, which is
Speaker 3: kind of pathetic.
Speaker 2: I have a great story about your mother which I
Speaker 2: just remembered, which was that she told me that she
Speaker 2: once came home and your nanny, you had a young nanny,
Speaker 2: and you or your sister wanted a biscuit and your
Speaker 2: nanny said, if you eat this biscuit, it'll make you fat,
Speaker 2: and she fired her. I really am, And I thought
Speaker 2: that was so cool because I thought, you know, she's
Speaker 2: just like, do not ever say that to my.
Speaker 3: Children, because I was quite a fat kid though. I
Speaker 3: was a fat kid. And I remember actually a woman
Speaker 3: in a hardware shop that we were in, the owner
Speaker 3: came up to meet and poked me in the stomach
Speaker 3: and said, you you eat too much.
Speaker 2: People are crazy, you think.
Speaker 3: I was nine ten, so I was kind of a
Speaker 3: fat kid, and I did eat, you know, an enormous
Speaker 3: amount of crap basically, you know, if it was kind
Speaker 3: of if it had enum was in it or came
Speaker 3: in a package. My mum would always try and make
Speaker 3: you know, food from scratch every night, and yeah, I
Speaker 3: really just wanted kind of chicken drumsticks from a packet,
Speaker 3: you know, really, yeah I did. She let you have occasionally,
Speaker 3: but you know, I think I think she was sort
Speaker 3: of in despair, really, like how little I wanted to
Speaker 3: eat and how limited I was, And once I found
Speaker 3: something I liked, that would kind of be it for
Speaker 3: six months, you know, that kind of slightly obsessive way
Speaker 3: of eating. You know, I'd find something I liked and
Speaker 3: that would be what I would eat for the next
Speaker 3: six months.
Speaker 2: And what about your sister, No, she would eat anything, Yeah,
Speaker 2: so she What were dinners like? Would you all have
Speaker 2: dinner together?
Speaker 3: Yeah, we would all have dinner together, the four of us,
Speaker 3: you know, and he'd come back late. So I'm used
Speaker 3: to eating late, I think from my childhood. You know,
Speaker 3: I now kind of think I think nine o'clock is
Speaker 3: the perfect time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very time. I love it when.
Speaker 3: Someone says to me at seven, my heart sinks and
Speaker 3: I think, oh, please don't make me have the kind
Speaker 3: of early bird special. So I'm used to eating late
Speaker 3: at night. And yeah, we we would have dinner together,
Speaker 3: and and the only dinners I really remember from that
Speaker 3: kind of period were on Friday nights in the nineties
Speaker 3: we would go to Pizza Express and that felt so
Speaker 3: glamorous and you know Continental, and you know, it's the
Speaker 3: first time I had kind of pizza that wasn't from
Speaker 3: a package which to Islington. So yeah, so yeah, it wasn't.
Speaker 3: It wasn't for a long time. And you know, my
Speaker 3: in my teens and twenties, I just ate. I can't
Speaker 3: tell you. You'd be so disappointed if you saw my
Speaker 3: diet back then. It was kind of buckets of ice cream,
Speaker 3: grab bags of crisps. I used to make myself like
Speaker 3: bowls of pasta that kind of you know, laden down
Speaker 3: with pasta.
Speaker 2: I just that's what you like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was comfort food. All of it was comfortable
Speaker 3: because I was quite unhappy, and so I would eat
Speaker 3: kind of bland, warm, soft food that could kind of
Speaker 3: fill me up.
Speaker 2: You're going to have a really hard time getting me
Speaker 2: to judge your any habits. But I think that it
Speaker 2: is interesting when you talk to people about babies. You know,
Speaker 2: sometimes they have their first baby and they go, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, they just try everything and they eat everything.
Speaker 2: And this is all to do with parenting and how
Speaker 2: you expose them to food and then cut to the
Speaker 2: second baby who doesn't like, you know, maybe like who
Speaker 2: doesn't want to eat this or doesn't want to eat that,
Speaker 2: And then they realized maybe you're just born that way
Speaker 2: that you even as a little baby, the things you
Speaker 2: don't want to eat or you know, a lot of
Speaker 2: children don't eat fish, and then they discover it when yeah,
Speaker 2: they're older. I think sad my steps and didn't eat
Speaker 2: a pizza fish till he was about.
Speaker 3: Forty and then loved it and then loved Yeah, so
Speaker 3: you're right, like we didn't go out to eat a lot.
Speaker 3: It was pizza Express often for like birthdays or you know,
Speaker 3: like a special occasion, and then it was quite often
Speaker 3: the pub. You know, well that was pre Gastro pub.
Speaker 3: I guess it was kind of on a costs. I
Speaker 3: remember the first Gastro pub opening up and people being
Speaker 3: really excited about it. But but before that, it was
Speaker 3: kind of you know, bang as a mash fish and chips. Yeah,
Speaker 3: those eggs, Scotch eggs. You never had a Scotch I did?
Speaker 2: Sometimes you care the pickled eggs A bit of a problem,
Speaker 2: a bit of step American girl. Yeah, I wanted to
Speaker 2: take pictures of people eating my mate and and give
Speaker 2: it too. I wanted to do a photographic essay because
Speaker 2: I was an arts school of getting Americans and getting
Speaker 2: them to taste toasts with more mite and seeing the
Speaker 2: expression on their face.
Speaker 3: There not an American equivalent, but back then there was
Speaker 3: nothing like that.
Speaker 2: In my lifetime. And and do you like my mite?
Speaker 2: You love it?
Speaker 3: I didn't try it until I was thirty five and
Speaker 3: Greg made me try it, and now I love it.
Speaker 3: But the idea of it back then made me want
Speaker 3: to hull, you know, but actually, yeah, do you I
Speaker 3: can see by your face that you still.
Speaker 2: Need still abomination the farm ban and toast and like
Speaker 2: in bed at night, that would be like oh, in
Speaker 2: bed at night, but you would always have a toasted
Speaker 2: you know, Richard, he did. He broke all the rules.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: That's really very sweet. But you described living at home
Speaker 2: and being a firsty eater. But it was the baking
Speaker 2: interesting too. Then did you want to cook as well
Speaker 2: as eat?
Speaker 3: I always baked from like as a very small child.
Speaker 3: We had cookbooks that were deliberately for children to learn
Speaker 3: how to bake. You know, it was always desserts. They
Speaker 3: never said, you know, you can make past of spaghetti bongle.
Speaker 3: It was always like, you know, And I remember we
Speaker 3: had a Roll Dahls Disgusting Cookbook, which was all the
Speaker 3: recipes that they make in his books, so it was
Speaker 3: like boot Bruce bog Trotter's Disgusting Chocolate Cake or whatever
Speaker 3: it was called. So I used to make a lot
Speaker 3: of those. So I've always baked throughout my life. I've
Speaker 3: always loved it, and I didn't have any interest really
Speaker 3: in cooking, So yeah, I think my twenties were a bit.
Speaker 3: I was sad. I was a very sad twenty something
Speaker 3: year old.
Speaker 2: So you'd left school? Did you leave her or did
Speaker 2: you live at her school?
Speaker 3: I was just too unhappy, couldn't keep home, having panic
Speaker 3: attacks all the time, couldn't really do very much.
Speaker 2: But she went to art school.
Speaker 3: I went to art school in London, which some Martins,
Speaker 3: but I wasn't very good and I was also very sad,
Speaker 3: so the two things combined did not do very well
Speaker 3: for me. So yeah, I lived at home until I
Speaker 3: was twenty six twenty seven. My mum always says that's
Speaker 3: like the perfect Jewish mother thing of like have your
Speaker 3: kids live at home, and I'm like, they're not Jewish.
Speaker 3: She's like, yes, but Scottish as well, and I'm like,
Speaker 3: I don't think that's true.
Speaker 2: So would you still sit down to meals with your
Speaker 2: parents most night?
Speaker 3: But I think I think there's that funny thing with
Speaker 3: mental illness, not mental health, but mental illness, where your
Speaker 3: appetite is completely affected by it one way or another.
Speaker 3: You know, So quite often people overat if they're feeling
Speaker 3: sad or anxious source stressed, and the same is true
Speaker 3: the under each and so food either becomes something that
Speaker 3: you cling to and rely on. So quite often I
Speaker 3: would really over et and kind of goreg things, you know.
Speaker 3: I remember driving to this new donut shop and having
Speaker 3: I think I ate twelve donuts in the space of
Speaker 3: two hours because I felt sad. Why not, you know,
Speaker 3: I felt sad and then but then there would be
Speaker 3: other times when I would just food just kind of
Speaker 3: lost or you just can't stomach it. And that's so common.
Speaker 3: So I think most of my Tony's food was slightly
Speaker 3: dictated to me by how I was feeling at the time.
Speaker 3: So it wasn't really until I hit my thirties and
Speaker 3: I sort of started looking outwards towards new cuisines, new experiences,
Speaker 3: you know, the idea that food didn't have to be
Speaker 3: stodgy or bland, And now my palette is. I would say, like,
Speaker 3: if you'd asked seventeen year old me whether thirty nine
Speaker 3: year old me would be eating the things that I ate,
Speaker 3: she'd have been horrified. But my food, my diet is
Speaker 3: completely different.
Speaker 2: I'm really interested in what happened to get you out
Speaker 2: of that cycle. You know, the girl was in her twenties,
Speaker 2: living home till she's twenty six, and then.
Speaker 3: So scared of everything. And I think that partly meant
Speaker 3: I was unadventurous around things like food, which is, you know,
Speaker 3: maybe the smallest part of that. But you know, I
Speaker 3: didn't fly for five years. I didn't get the train
Speaker 3: the tube for a decade, was uninterested trying new things.
Speaker 3: And then I realized that I was very anxious and
Speaker 3: I needed to do something about that. I did lots
Speaker 3: of things, you know, I started running, I went to
Speaker 3: a good therapist. I did all these brilliant things. But
Speaker 3: I also part of trying to break free from anxiety
Speaker 3: is always trying to push back against the anxiety and
Speaker 3: doing new things, doing things that scary you, all of
Speaker 3: those things. And so, yeah, it's not that food scared me.
Speaker 3: But I knew that I had to start in every
Speaker 3: element of my life, in every aspect, trying to break
Speaker 3: out of patterns that i'd sort of locked myself into. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so that just meant I had to try. If I
Speaker 3: didn't want to try food, I had to try it.
Speaker 3: So that was my rule too, that was your rule
Speaker 3: to yourself. Yeah, limited obviously by the fact that my vegetarian.
Speaker 3: So if someone handed me you know, surlin. Yeah, but
Speaker 3: everything else, I just said, if I don't want to
Speaker 3: try it, that means I have to try it. That's
Speaker 3: kind of the mantrip. I don't want to do something,
Speaker 3: then you have to do it. So from that, I
Speaker 3: tried everything under the sun that wasn't full of me,
Speaker 3: and surprise, surprise. That's the thing you learn, right, is
Speaker 3: that you're going to like ninety per center. You know,
Speaker 3: there's very few things that I tried that I thought.
Speaker 3: In fact, I can't think of anything that I've tried
Speaker 3: in the last ten years that I haven't thought, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: this is great. Why didn't I try earlier? I feel
Speaker 3: so angry with myself sometimes that I wasted so much
Speaker 3: of my life not eating the most brilliant array of
Speaker 3: things that now I get to eat, and I think,
Speaker 3: oh my god, you know my palette was so bored.
Speaker 3: It was it must have been so bored, you know.
Speaker 3: And so yeah, so now I eat everything, and like
Speaker 3: I say, sixteen year old me would just be like,
Speaker 3: I don't understand.
Speaker 2: How much do we love? You're in love?
Speaker 3: Or thank you very much?
Speaker 2: A great book? I say, how everybody in the River
Speaker 2: Cafe when I told them we were coming has so weird? Book?
Speaker 2: Is that weird?
Speaker 3: But it is weird to me because you know, I
Speaker 3: still think in my mind sometimes I still think it
Speaker 3: hasn't even you know, it's come out and I've read it,
Speaker 3: but it's still really weird to think about other people
Speaker 3: reading it. And you're putting something out into the world,
Speaker 3: and then it's not really yours anymore, because it's it's
Speaker 3: you know, people that love it or people that hate it,
Speaker 3: or people that think you're terrible, or so it's everyone
Speaker 3: else's reactions to it after a while. So yeah, it's
Speaker 3: a very strange phenomenon.
Speaker 2: Do you have a routine for eating when you're writing
Speaker 2: a novel. You have that blank sheet of paper which
Speaker 2: is now on your laptop screen. But how do you
Speaker 2: how do you start the day when you're writing?
Speaker 3: So I get up. I have Dike coke, which is
Speaker 3: really bad, but that is my favorite YEP for breakfast.
Speaker 3: That's my It's not a diet thing. It's just that
Speaker 3: I love Dike. Is it President Trump? Did he say
Speaker 3: I've never seen a skinny person drink Diark coke? But
Speaker 3: then apparently he had a diet coke butler at the
Speaker 3: White House.
Speaker 2: So you start your day with the Dike.
Speaker 3: I start my day with dark Hoke because Nancy.
Speaker 2: Pelos who starts with the chocolate ice cream. So everyone
Speaker 2: that's living day shares chocolate ice cream for breakfast. Yeah
Speaker 2: that's your thing.
Speaker 3: Oh, I mean I aspire to that level of kind
Speaker 3: of being a grown up and just deciding that you
Speaker 3: don't have to live by Yeah, okay, likes so much
Speaker 3: a lot, so much. I've got to give up because
Speaker 3: it's going to.
Speaker 2: I'm I'm sure it's like burning zero is better for it.
Speaker 3: I'm sure it's burning my inside to maybe coke zero,
Speaker 3: I don't know the difference. Tell me, like just branded,
Speaker 3: just acid yeah, so I have that. Then I have
Speaker 3: normally I have yogurt and granola just because it's easy.
Speaker 3: And then for lunch, I will have salads, like big
Speaker 3: salads full of like so your whole most That's the
Speaker 3: worst thing is that I'm right from home, So what
Speaker 3: I started doing is going out for lunch on my own.
Speaker 3: So like, I run, I have lunch somewhere, you know,
Speaker 3: like nothing fancy, but I love the Italian delis around
Speaker 3: Clark and weell, there used to be loads more, but
Speaker 3: but growing up, those were where we would get kind
Speaker 3: of you know our treats. You know fresh pasta. That
Speaker 3: was the only place I did fresh pasta, or you
Speaker 3: know Ammeretti biscuits or you know, all of that stuff.
Speaker 3: So if I can, I'll run somewhere and go and
Speaker 3: eat for lunch because otherwise I am literally on my
Speaker 3: own all day. And then yeah, and then I graze
Speaker 3: all day. So it's like you know those Spanish crisps,
Speaker 3: the kind of olive oil crisps. You know, I'm constantly
Speaker 3: eating those, and I'm eating salted almonds and chocolate. I'm
Speaker 3: always eating chocolate, so all day long, or popcorn, like
Speaker 3: there's always like sort of it's like party food, but
Speaker 3: it's just for me while I'm writing, because I sort
Speaker 3: of think, do another five hundred words and then break
Speaker 3: and have chocolate and then whatever I mean in the evening.
Speaker 3: I will always have ice cream afterwards every single night.
Speaker 2: So what about alcohol to love wine?
Speaker 3: I love wine Again. I'm very controlled about it because
Speaker 3: I think that's my personality and with anxiety, you know,
Speaker 3: that's just how you feel like you have to try
Speaker 3: and control uncertainty. So I'm never drunk, like I'm never
Speaker 3: drunk drunk, and I don't get hangovers because I know
Speaker 3: my limits. But I would will always have a glass
Speaker 3: of wine with dinner, always red wine, really every night. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I think the most joyful thing in the world is
Speaker 3: probably a bowl of pasta and a glass of Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I'd happened. Then going back is the you know,
Speaker 2: you figured out that you're going to taste food that
Speaker 2: you had never tasted before and started cooking and trying
Speaker 2: and experimenting, and then how did that coincide with getting better?
Speaker 3: It was funny because weirdly it coincided with a peer wore.
Speaker 3: I started running and I was still feeling kind of
Speaker 3: unhappy because you know, I'd just been dumped, basically, and
Speaker 3: I was feeling kind of crap about that, and so
Speaker 3: I started thinking, I remember thinking at the time, but
Speaker 3: I'm just going to lose weight because then I won't
Speaker 3: What'll he'll want me still, or he'll realize he made
Speaker 3: a mistake or something. So it was at the same
Speaker 3: time when I was I was trying to lose weight
Speaker 3: and I so I was on these three parts. One
Speaker 3: was enjoying food, one was losing weight, and one was
Speaker 3: running all the time. And I remember there was a
Speaker 3: point about a year afterwards where I ended up in
Speaker 3: hospital with tonsilitis and the nurse weighed me and I
Speaker 3: was quite clearly very underweight for my height, my age,
Speaker 3: all of those things, and I realized, oh my god,
Speaker 3: I've fallen into this pattern of restricting. I was eating
Speaker 3: different food, but I was restricting food, and I was
Speaker 3: running kind of you know, eight kilometers day, and somehow
Speaker 3: I'd fallen into this kind of disordered eat pattern without
Speaker 3: even realizing it. Which again it's about control, about being anxious,
Speaker 3: you know, all of those things. But that felt really
Speaker 3: sad to me at the time because I remember thinking
Speaker 3: the joy of my twenties and teens. Was I never
Speaker 3: got sucked into that diet culture.
Speaker 2: Who didn't have friends?
Speaker 3: Who I did have friends said.
Speaker 2: That, yeah, but me never.
Speaker 3: I never weighed myself, I never counted calories. I never
Speaker 3: did any of that stuff. And I thought, oh, in
Speaker 3: past thirty I I must be past that. You know,
Speaker 3: I've escaped that one thing that you know, so many
Speaker 3: women full kind of victim too. And then it sort
Speaker 3: of hit me at about thirty two, and I thought, oh,
Speaker 3: it did get me. You know, it's so easy. You know,
Speaker 3: the moment you start looking at food as calorie containers
Speaker 3: rather than as kind of delicious or whatever, then the
Speaker 3: way you eat changes. So for a long time I
Speaker 3: was sort of restricting the good stuff, like you know,
Speaker 3: olive oil or cheese or you know, all those delicious things,
Speaker 3: and I was viewing them more as kind of a tree,
Speaker 3: a treat, rather than a you know, just a kind
Speaker 3: of way of life or just something you might want
Speaker 3: to eat. So that was kind of difficult for a
Speaker 3: couple of years, where I thought I suddenly realized that
Speaker 3: I was sort of seeing food not as an enemy,
Speaker 3: but as the sort of something I had to again
Speaker 3: kind of control, or you manage.
Speaker 2: Did you go different kinds of diet?
Speaker 3: Just I honestly just kind of no. I was just
Speaker 3: really cognizant of how calies things, you know. I just
Speaker 3: and once you know that, it's really hard to get
Speaker 3: out of your head because if you know, what's a
Speaker 3: chocolate bar, is you kind of it doesn't? You can't
Speaker 3: forget that, you know, So it's kind of once it
Speaker 3: gets into your head, it's quite difficult to get out
Speaker 3: of your head.
Speaker 2: It also affects you socially. I mean the times that
Speaker 2: I've gone, you know, say I'm not going to eat
Speaker 2: today to mind. Then you go to a dinner party.
Speaker 2: You kind of sit a little bit back, don't you
Speaker 2: You're not leaning in, you know, you're thinking about when
Speaker 2: you found out was that the turning problem and the
Speaker 2: nurse told you you were so underweight? Did that make
Speaker 2: you know?
Speaker 3: I think at the time I thought, wooho, you know,
Speaker 3: look at me, and it's I think I just think
Speaker 3: at the time, you can't when you're in it. You're
Speaker 3: in it and you can't sort of see that that's
Speaker 3: not okay really, But I remember being kind of surprised.
Speaker 3: But no, I think it was kind of meeting Greg
Speaker 3: and being happy again, and not just because I met
Speaker 3: a guy, but you know, I'd sorted out a lot
Speaker 3: of stuff kind of mentally, and and yeah, so food
Speaker 3: became fun again because we were living in East London
Speaker 3: and there were just so many brilliant restaurants everywhere, and
Speaker 3: we fell in love over food, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was like, tell me about falling in
Speaker 2: love over food.
Speaker 3: Just there's something so amazing about sitting with just one
Speaker 3: other person over dinner, you know, be at the bar
Speaker 3: in a booth and there's nowhere to go, and it's
Speaker 3: just it's just the perfect atmosphere, you know. And our
Speaker 3: first date was a he'd booked dinner after we went
Speaker 3: to see a comedy show, which I just found extraordinary
Speaker 3: because I'd never been on a date with someone who'd
Speaker 3: taken away for dinner before. And I said, I said,
Speaker 3: are you going to Should we go to the pub?
Speaker 3: And he said, no, I've booked dinner, and I thought, wow,
Speaker 3: you know, this is incredibly grown up of you. So
Speaker 3: I think it kicked off from that. We just had
Speaker 3: you know, four hours in a restaurant that night and
Speaker 3: fell in love and he stayed over and we never left,
Speaker 3: so restaurants were kind of our thing. And then obviously
Speaker 3: he then got this job where he's he's on the
Speaker 3: breakfast show and he gets up at five thirty in
Speaker 3: the morning, so he goes to bed at nine, you know,
Speaker 3: so it kind of like to sit down to Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's when I want to go out for dinner, and
Speaker 3: obviously by then he's kind of in bed, so it's
Speaker 3: a bit of a killer. And so we still try
Speaker 3: and go out like Thursday's, Fridays, you know, Saturdays if
Speaker 3: we can, and then obviously for special occasions like we
Speaker 3: come here. So we do still try and go to restaurants.
Speaker 3: But it's the way we bond. If we fall out,
Speaker 3: we go out down.
Speaker 2: You know, restaurant is a public space, but you see
Speaker 2: quite a lot of people crying, not so much in
Speaker 2: the River Cafe, but our waiters will tell us that
Speaker 2: they've experienced people crying over dinner. People get fired in restaurants,
Speaker 2: people get proposed to in restaurants, and people, as you say,
Speaker 2: it's very often people go to make up, you know,
Speaker 2: if you want to just we're being taken care of.
Speaker 2: We don't have to get up and down. We can
Speaker 2: just be served and I think that's waiters, you know,
Speaker 2: are very sensitive.
Speaker 3: To that, and that's you to know kind of to
Speaker 3: be able to ensure it what sort of mood people
Speaker 3: are in. But I think, yeah, there's something especially after
Speaker 3: COVID where we were all stuck indoors and everything. You know,
Speaker 3: if you were with someone, you were sort of lashed
Speaker 3: to them, you know, and there was sort of no
Speaker 3: mystique and no no separation. You know, sometimes you have
Speaker 3: to go away from someone to miss them or you know,
Speaker 3: or go out of the house. So you know, in
Speaker 3: a way, it's now more important that we get to
Speaker 3: spend time away from our house because we've been in it.
Speaker 3: We were in it for such a long time, and
Speaker 3: so it does act like that reset where you kind
Speaker 3: of go it's like we're dating. Yeah, we're on a
Speaker 3: day here, and it feels really special. So we still
Speaker 3: do that. And Greg is a massive foodie, so so
Speaker 3: we do. He really is like he and he's one
Speaker 3: of those guys he'll eat anything and he can kind
Speaker 3: of be in raptures about, you know, what he ate
Speaker 3: for dinner the night before and talk about.
Speaker 2: It and remember it. I'm amazed at people's food memories.
Speaker 2: So you're talking about your first date. You know that
Speaker 2: people can remember what they cook to seduce a girlfriend,
Speaker 2: you know, or what they cooked when they were they
Speaker 2: were told somebody had died, or what they had told
Speaker 2: that they can. It's a bit like music. If I
Speaker 2: listen to a song, you can sort of remember where
Speaker 2: you were when you heard that piece of music.
Speaker 3: Yeah, remember the mood you were feeling.
Speaker 2: And food is like there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there are things that you know sometimes if you
Speaker 3: were heartbroken and you'd eating a lot of something, you
Speaker 3: can't eat it and ever again. Yeah, you know you
Speaker 3: were falling in love and you remember something that's completely true.
Speaker 3: There are totally there are things that are evocative of
Speaker 3: a time. I remember this pastor saurs I used to
Speaker 3: make that I just can't make anymore because it reminds
Speaker 3: me of being fat, fat at the time in my life.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: And conversely, I think the reason I ate twelve donuts
Speaker 3: is because my first memory is of my sister being
Speaker 3: born and my dad buying me a donut in that
Speaker 3: kind of your sister's here, sha. So I remember going
Speaker 3: to the hospital and my mom said, here's your baby sister,
Speaker 3: And I said, look at my donut. You know, like,
Speaker 3: look at this amazing thing that I've been given, and
Speaker 3: to me, that was kind of the best day. But
Speaker 3: nothing to do with her. It was just to do
Speaker 3: with the fact that I'd got this amazing thing.
Speaker 2: So yeah, how old were you then?
Speaker 3: Two and a half?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can remember that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can remember holding it. Wow, Yeah, because I
Speaker 3: was so excited about this, you know, sugary bun. So
Speaker 3: maybe that's my formative memory is, you know, having to
Speaker 3: be told my life was going to change forever.
Speaker 2: Sugar, sugar, sugar.
Speaker 3: There's no one else in my life that has a
Speaker 3: tooth as sweet as mine. And when I was seven,
Speaker 3: I came back from the dentist with a gold tooth
Speaker 3: because the dentist said, that is an adult tooth and
Speaker 3: it's going to rock because she eats so much sugar.
Speaker 3: So they gave me a gold tooth for a year
Speaker 3: to protect it, and it's never gone away. My mum
Speaker 3: wants she said, I'll give you, I think it was
Speaker 3: one hundred pounds if you don't eat sweets.
Speaker 2: Chocolate, to say, if you don't if you pee in
Speaker 2: the toilet, I'll give you.
Speaker 3: Just because even kids understand, you know, money, but it
Speaker 3: was a hundred I think it was one hundred cred.
Speaker 3: It was a lot of money for a year for me,
Speaker 3: not sweet Sugar, and I think I did about eight
Speaker 3: months and then this doesn't speak well to my character,
Speaker 3: but I just realized I could cheat. I just realized
Speaker 3: I could tell sweet and be like, I've not had
Speaker 3: any sweets.
Speaker 2: That's that's the result of parenting.
Speaker 3: You could learn exactly if they're teaching. YEA, yeah, you're thinking, well,
Speaker 3: I'll also do fraud. So it's a slippery slope. But yeah,
Speaker 3: that for me, it's like I would rather have dessert
Speaker 3: than mames.
Speaker 1: You.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a there's certain desserts that you always go for.
Speaker 2: You probably stole.
Speaker 3: I probably did, but you know what, really, I think
Speaker 3: I will just give one addendum to that story, which
Speaker 3: was that there was a there was a thunderstorm that night.
Speaker 3: We were all sheltering indoors, and it was my birthday
Speaker 3: the next day, and you came out with the terms
Speaker 3: and you said, this is your birthday, and so it
Speaker 3: was in fact my tiramisso yeah, So when I woke
Speaker 3: up the next day hoping to have breakfast, it wasn't
Speaker 3: in the fringe so someone in your family had.
Speaker 2: Stolen, isn't it. I didn't know that they had taken
Speaker 2: it back.
Speaker 3: I actually think it's quite a dark I think.
Speaker 2: We could get this babe some family therapy here, and they.
Speaker 3: Took what was rightfully your Yeah, I mean, Judge is
Speaker 3: rightfully there. It's a tricky situation.
Speaker 2: But I'm really sorry you're we're doing y at the river,
Speaker 2: which is quite contentious. Well, because you know, the Italians
Speaker 2: often feel that the food that's been transported out of
Speaker 2: Italy is not really Italian food anyway. You know, carbonar,
Speaker 2: they say it didn't exist in Rome, like the mythology
Speaker 2: tells you that it was the workers, but it was
Speaker 2: something that you know, so I can put cheese and
Speaker 2: butter into penny and called it carbonar in America, and
Speaker 2: I think Jeremy soup really was an invention of a chef,
Speaker 2: either in France or in the United States. It was not.
Speaker 2: But you know, in the end, what we thought is
Speaker 2: it's actually really delicious. Yeah, you know, if you have
Speaker 2: one that has too much coffee or fake rama, or
Speaker 2: you're not enough beaten Mascar ponies, so it's very light.
Speaker 2: But if you actually think that what you're having is coffee,
Speaker 2: alcohol and mascarp on, new cheese and sugar and Cocoa's
Speaker 2: pretty yummy, and so we do it and people like it.
Speaker 2: You know, we call it River Cafes. You wouldn't cheering
Speaker 2: me too.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: There's Greg. Does he like sweets? No, not really.
Speaker 3: And I've stopped baking as much because because I work
Speaker 3: on my own and Greg doesn't really love baking, so
Speaker 3: I make There are a few things I still make.
Speaker 3: I make French flan.
Speaker 2: Quite a lot. I love that creme caramel love so.
Speaker 3: Because he loves that, So I make that quite a lot.
Speaker 3: And I still try and make you know, o casion.
Speaker 3: I have an Italian cookbook of recipes of dessert, so
Speaker 3: I make that. But there's not anyone really for me
Speaker 3: to cook for all. So then I thought I should
Speaker 3: do a cookbook called Baking for One.
Speaker 2: Good one. Baking for one you could make one one
Speaker 2: a cake then become a cupcake't have to be a
Speaker 2: small I don't like cupcakes, but that's interesting. I don't
Speaker 2: know that.
Speaker 3: Well, they were very fatty, weren't they. You know, sort
Speaker 3: of five years ago everyone wanted to cupcakes. But they're
Speaker 3: just very they're very dry. I always think that cupcakes
Speaker 3: have I like this stuff on the top. Sometimes that
Speaker 3: really bad and then you have to kind of eat
Speaker 3: all that cake.
Speaker 2: Quite dry.
Speaker 3: Yeah, very dry, very very dense. Very yeah. No, I'm
Speaker 3: not a fan of cupcakes. But you could do one
Speaker 3: profeterol one chocolate Claire. You know the measurements, but just
Speaker 3: kind of one, you know, for lonely.
Speaker 2: People, because of lonely people, But there was also just
Speaker 2: the amount of the size of the cake. As an athlete,
Speaker 2: would you eat before you ran? Would you eat after
Speaker 2: you came home? Would you have a sort of know
Speaker 2: what foods would be good as someone who wanted to run?
Speaker 3: I think nutritionally you do as a runner. You get
Speaker 3: better at realizing what you need the longer you do.
Speaker 3: And what is that You need protein? You need good
Speaker 3: carbs and fats. You know you need fats. And actually,
Speaker 3: if you're trying to run and you're not eating enough,
Speaker 3: your body is going to tell you about it. You
Speaker 3: know you can't do it. So if you want to
Speaker 3: run ten kilometers or fifteen kilometers, you need to be
Speaker 3: compensating for that fully. So at the times when I
Speaker 3: wasn't doing that, I was running probably quite slowly, whereas
Speaker 3: now my pace is a lot quicker because I you know,
Speaker 3: because I'm eating actual food again. It's like that sad
Speaker 3: thing of I think diet culture is being pushed back
Speaker 3: at a lot by today's I don't know what you
Speaker 3: see in your granddaughters, whether they sort of talk about
Speaker 3: it or a lot.
Speaker 2: They talk about it. They're pretty depends on the age
Speaker 2: as well. These little ones are just eating. And as
Speaker 2: a parent, you know, as you know, it's sort of
Speaker 2: food is so complicated, you know, it's just how you
Speaker 2: nurture your child. And then a child knows that if
Speaker 2: they reject it, you know, they're kind of damaging you.
Speaker 2: Or you know, we get, you know, the same thing
Speaker 2: in the restaurant. You get people who want obsessed with food,
Speaker 2: so they want to cook, but then they also have
Speaker 2: eating issues.
Speaker 3: Over that must be it must be quite high, you know,
Speaker 3: higher than other industries of kind of people that want
Speaker 3: because because the love part of cooking is I love you,
Speaker 3: I want to cook. But that doesn't necessarily mean you
Speaker 3: love yourself enough that you want to eat what you've made,
Speaker 3: you know, And I think that's kind of it's it's
Speaker 3: heartbreaking isn't it. Because people always call those people feeders
Speaker 3: in a kind of derogatory way, but actually it's not.
Speaker 3: It's those people are trying to be as loving to
Speaker 3: you as possible while not being able to afford themselves
Speaker 3: the same compassion, which is sort of tragic. So I'm
Speaker 3: trying to be more compassionate towards myself, and I'm trying
Speaker 3: to just enjoy, enjoy the pizza, enjoy the kind of
Speaker 3: the baking more. And I'm still trying to eat everything
Speaker 3: that I don't want to eat.
Speaker 2: How do get your proteins as a vegetarian?
Speaker 3: As a vegetarian, yeah, it's difficult, isn't it. I think
Speaker 3: probably I don't get enough protein actually, just because I
Speaker 3: never really know what it's like. What's got protein? It
Speaker 3: like logomes, beans, beans. I'm big on lentsils.
Speaker 2: Together, I think, right Spanish country in Mexico, they always
Speaker 2: have rice.
Speaker 3: It's the best combination.
Speaker 2: See.
Speaker 3: I eat a lot of lentils and Bolotti beans and
Speaker 3: Candelini beans and all of that kind of stuff. So
Speaker 3: I sort of hope that that's gonna, you know, that
Speaker 3: my bones aren't going to sort of suddenly, you know,
Speaker 3: give up on me. Halfway.
Speaker 2: But do you always think about the eyes of the cars.
Speaker 2: The same thing with fish. I just don't want to go.
Speaker 3: I just can't.
Speaker 2: What did you eat last night?
Speaker 3: Last night I had I made myself Greek food?
Speaker 4: What was that?
Speaker 3: I made myself to bule halloomi aubergeine meis? I love
Speaker 3: doing things with abergine?
Speaker 2: I love?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love putting it on a naked flame. Okay,
Speaker 3: I'm burning it on exactly for like fifteen minutes, so
Speaker 3: that and suddenly it shrinks, you know, the skin just
Speaker 3: kind of and then you can just the entire inside
Speaker 3: will just almost already be like puree. So that smokiness
Speaker 3: is so delicious. So yeah, so and now that's what
Speaker 3: I mean. I now cooked. My everything is made from scratch.
Speaker 3: I don't buy anything, So you go to where do
Speaker 3: you shop? It's an amazing shop called Phoenicia, and it's
Speaker 3: a Lebanese supermarket just down the road from us. And
Speaker 3: there was one day when Yotelengi name checked it in
Speaker 3: the thing about where he buys all his food, and
Speaker 3: he said, I buy all my food at Phoenicia. And
Speaker 3: I tore it out and I took it down to
Speaker 3: them because I was like, they're going to be so excited,
Speaker 3: and I gave it to the guy and he, honestly,
Speaker 3: I rolled at me and pulled out like a stash
Speaker 3: of them and every person.
Speaker 2: In the morning.
Speaker 3: That morning, I brought him this thing about Ottelengi and
Speaker 3: he was like, Lady, we know. And now it's laminated
Speaker 3: in the window because you can buy, you know, spices
Speaker 3: that you've never heard of. You can buy brilliant fruit
Speaker 3: and bread, you can buy Mediterranean mese. I mean, it's amazing.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I should change. I mean, we'll go back
Speaker 2: to politics and how much we need culture, other cultures
Speaker 2: we need, you know, the idea of brexit or closing
Speaker 2: our doors to people who are going to teach us
Speaker 2: her to cook a new food or eat a new food.
Speaker 2: It's just so crucial to a city. I did a
Speaker 2: conversation with Automn and though he and I cook very
Speaker 2: kind of different, My recipes are short and his go on, oh,
Speaker 2: ingredients and they're so good and he's so good. And
Speaker 2: I think that opening the door for people to have ingredients,
Speaker 2: to try different foods, and to have different cultures is
Speaker 2: something that's changed a lot. When Rose and I did
Speaker 2: our first cookbook, people would always say to us, well,
Speaker 2: it's all very well to put as salted ancher of
Speaker 2: your on your recipe, but where are we going to
Speaker 2: get them? And now, of course also with the internet,
Speaker 2: if you can order everything, you know you can get
Speaker 2: if you can't get it from your local place.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I remember, even sort of fifteen years ago,
Speaker 3: people used to sort of the sort of cliche about
Speaker 3: OTTLINGI was, where are you going to buy all of
Speaker 3: this stuff?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Actually, yeah, now you would be easily able to buy that.
Speaker 2: When you cook the mess, you have no trouble getting
Speaker 2: no nothing.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's because I live like on a kind
Speaker 3: of bustling, multicultural part of time which has all of
Speaker 3: those kind of amenities, which is amazing. But my mum said,
Speaker 3: going back to your point about sort of you know,
Speaker 3: restaurants and shops and stuff, my mum said that, you know,
Speaker 3: they hadn't had proper ice cream until there was a
Speaker 3: kind of Italian immigration sort of drive in the forties
Speaker 3: and fifties, and lots of Italians came to the village
Speaker 3: where she grew up and opened an ice cream parlor
Speaker 3: called Vazokis, and suddenly they were having gelato in like
Speaker 3: nineteen fifty five, you know, And she said when we
Speaker 3: were going up to said, you have no idea. They
Speaker 3: were not restaurants like there are now. You know, this
Speaker 3: idea that you'd go out to a restaurant, just it
Speaker 3: wasn't a thing that you did, whereas now you.
Speaker 2: Know, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I guess that we've been through,
Speaker 2: you know, cooking for our own mental health and not
Speaker 2: eating when we're hungry, or eating when we're not hungry,
Speaker 2: or food and family and babies and doughnuts, and so
Speaker 2: I suppose the food is all that, and it definitely
Speaker 2: is memory. It also is comfort, and so I guess
Speaker 2: my last question to you is I ask everyone, is
Speaker 2: is there a food that you turn to specifically when
Speaker 2: you feel you need comfort?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good question, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: My mother makes mashed potatoes, and because I love her
Speaker 3: so much, that is kind of That's kind of the
Speaker 3: thing that I want to say, is just I would
Speaker 3: make mashed potato in honor of her, but I wouldn't
Speaker 3: do it as well as her, so I think it
Speaker 3: would make me sad. So I think I'm going to
Speaker 3: say that at my saddest moments when I really felt
Speaker 3: like the world's falling down, or when my family have
Speaker 3: needed to come together for things, you know, to sort
Speaker 3: of support each other through grief or sadness or whatever
Speaker 3: else is going on. It's always pizza. So I'm going
Speaker 3: to say, a really good pizza, and when, because it's
Speaker 3: so common, not everyone's eating the same thing. You're sitting
Speaker 3: around this boxes. It feels very informal, and that feels
Speaker 3: to me, that feels so lovely. You know, everyone's sort
Speaker 3: of scarfing it into your mouth. No one's speaking because
Speaker 3: you're sort of enjoying it so much and it's gone,
Speaker 3: you know, like that, So, yeah, you're not. There's no
Speaker 3: ceremony behind pizza. It's definitely a kind of It's like
Speaker 3: the sweatshirts of food. You know, that would be my
Speaker 3: choice that and then ice cream and then I'd be happy. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I hope you don't need to take it off for comfort,
Speaker 2: because I just like you to be happy. Thank you,
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming my love, Thank you fella.
Speaker 1: The River Cafe Lookbook is now available in bookshops and online.
Speaker 1: It has over one hundred recipes, beautifully illustrated with photographs
Speaker 1: from the renowned photographer Matthew Donaldson. The book has fifty
Speaker 1: delicious and easy to prepare recipes, including a host of
Speaker 1: River Cafe classics that have been specially adapted for new cooks.
Speaker 1: The River Cafe Lookbook Recipes for cooks of all ages.
Speaker 1: Ruthie's Table four is a production of iHeartRadio and Adamized Studios.
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