WEBVTT - The Business Case for Climate Action 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.720 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.320 Jason Kelley. We're right here every day bringing you the 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:11.160 latest news from the world's of business and finance, plus technology, politics, economics, 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:14.280 all harnessing the power of Business Week reporters and editors 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.439 and of course Girl that's part of a team of 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:20.439 twenty seven hundred journalists and analysts more than a hundred 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.280 and twenty countries and Jason. You can download Bloomberg Business 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.239 Week on iTunes, SoundCloud, bl Bloomberg dot com. You can 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:28.640 also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.560 on Bloomberg Radio every weekday, or watch us on YouTube 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:37.040 by searching Bloomberg Global News. Delighted to introduce Yes for Broden. 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:39.960 He's the presidency of INCA Group. They are home to 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:42.800 three businesses of course, all of those I Kea stores 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:45.600 that are around the world. We're also talking about their 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:48.840 shopping centers and then their investments arms. So a lot 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:53.520 to talk about, and as I said, they are operating globally. Um, yes, 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:56.040 for so nice to have you here with us. Um. 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:58.880 I gotta ask you, first of all, you said as 0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:01.120 we were getting ready to set it up that before 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:03.080 we get into what you guys have done in terms 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:05.720 of sustainability at the store and the DNA. That is 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:11.000 UM sustainability really within your company culture. You said to us, 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:13.600 as is the first time you've traveled in six months 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:16.920 that you've left Sweden and you're in the Netherlands. Just 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:20.000 talk to us about how that feels. Talked to us 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.520 about the last six months. You guys operate globally. UM. 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:27.240 The virus has just impacted us, UM also, So just 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:30.880 just tell us kind of how things are going well. 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:33.320 You know that this year for us, like for everybody 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:37.360 on this planet, we have been through a very special 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:39.800 journey this year, and I must admit us I share 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:42.360 with you too. To be traveling about again, I felt 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:45.080 a bit like the old movie Castaway when coming back 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:49.480 to the office seeing people UM and enjoying that also, 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:53.680 I must say at the same time, obviously, UM, we 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:56.680 just like everybody else, have figured out new ways of leading. 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:01.040 We have figured out that we we didn't have a 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:04.120 map for this situation, but we had a very strong compass. 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:06.000 I think with the way we like to lead and 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:10.560 our values that helped us. Actually, I think take many 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:14.120 good decisions. But it's been a ride. It's been a ride, 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:15.960 no doubt about it. It's interesting that you say that, 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:18.080 and we're going to get into kind of your sustainability 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:22.239 strategy that is so much the IKEA and corporate culture here. 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:25.120 But I do wonder having so many of those measures 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:28.120 in place, are there any specific anecdotes that you can 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:32.560 tell us that help you guys get through this crisis 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:37.560 because of those green initiatives or sustainable initiatives. Well, you 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.520 can say, I think the it's all enter tangled, right, 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:43.600 people plan at and business and you can't take out 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:47.600 any of these from the equation. So what happened obviously 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:52.440 to us was that we had periods of dramatic closures 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:55.200 in our stores and we had to find ways to 0:02:56.200 --> 0:03:01.040 both protect ourselves or people are customers, uh. And then 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:02.560 on the other hand, we had to make sure that 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:04.960 we could save the jobs for the future. And the 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:06.919 way what actually happened in the end of the day 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:10.160 was that we were speeding up everything around multi channel 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:13.960 and online and we went from a good year to 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:17.520 a record loss forecast to actually coming back on half 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:20.800 of our estimate the profit in the end of the day, 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:23.160 and that was thanks to I think the entrepreneurship of 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:27.440 getting things right quickly. Do you think we're through it? 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:31.640 Do you are you guys getting ready for another wave? Well, 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:34.280 you know, I think at a certain moment we were. 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:39.280 We worked quite early on forecasting different scenarios, and the 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:42.280 period that we have just entered we called the new normal, 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:45.400 And I think it's a bit of a deceptive term 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:47.360 in a way, because the way we see it is 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:49.800 that for at least a year to come, we need 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:54.320 to be very agile, very prepared for outbreaks. I think 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:57.640 the term second wave could be misunderstood. So we like 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:02.040 to plan for outbreaks and how to deal with that 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.000 in the best possible way, both for jobs, for business, 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:07.800 uh and for everything we do in society and contribute to. 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:12.960 And obviously it's clear for all of us that you know, 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:15.720 one year later again it's still going to be learning. 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:19.640 There will be things that we will be, um, you know, 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:22.040 doing differently, and that would be a lot of I 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:24.359 think amazing things that we carry with us from this 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:27.919 period as well, hopefully including the way we realize the 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:31.479 importance of investment in sustainability and the opportunity of doing 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:34.880 that right. Well, let's get to that, because despite this 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:38.640 being a crazy year, a tumultuous year. You guys are 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:40.600 on track, and forgive me, I'm gonna read from my 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:41.880 notes because I want to get it right. You're a 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:44.280 track to achieve and exceed a goal to produce as 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:47.800 much energy from renewable sources as you consume. By you 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:50.719 have made massive investments about two and a half billion 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:54.000 euro in wind and solar power. You've set a twenty 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:56.000 thirty goal to be climate positive, meaning you're going to 0:04:56.080 --> 0:05:00.159 reduce more gas emissions than you admit you are in 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:02.920 you know, when it comes to electric add electric a 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:05.600 hundred percent at the time, ahead of targets. When it 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:09.120 comes to deliveries and Shanghai by e vs um you're 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:12.600 doing that in Amsterdam, l A, New York, Paris. And 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:16.159 here's something a goal for everyone who's listening. By you 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:18.600 guys have said your ambition is to inspire and enable 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:21.599 one billion people to live a better everyday life within 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:25.000 the limits of the planet. It's really heavy stuff and 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:29.200 it's impactful stuff. How tough has this been to do? 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:32.679 And what has been the business case for climate change 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:35.960 for you all? Well? You know, I think, I think 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:38.600 if you look at I K S history you can 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.000 say we started out with the founder that was a 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:45.040 very thrifty person, very smart around resources, and I think 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:47.800 that's part of our story. So part of this you 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:52.159 know that sustainability and being being smart about people and 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:56.360 planet is part of our legacy. My own story started 0:05:56.400 --> 0:06:00.400 back in the company when I joined in hp ccific. 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:03.279 At the time when we invested in I think what 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:05.719 is still today an amazing code of conduct when it 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:09.400 comes to production. Those days we had some discussions about 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:11.560 can we afford it, will drive costs to do the 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:15.159 right thing with working hours, salaries, etcetera. And in the 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:17.960 end of the day, it turned out to be brilliant 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:22.839 for business. We have the most efficient partners, happy coworkers 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:26.240 along etcetera. So I think we already then we we 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:30.800 saw some myths that were we needed to bust. And 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:34.080 the same goes for for the climate the ghost that 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:37.320 we have committed to where we we do not have 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:39.440 all the answers yet, so we still have some gaps 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:42.520 to be filled to coming years. But we are convinced 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:46.800 that this is good business for three reasons, or you 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:49.680 can say for two reasons. One is that I coworkers 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:51.680 and our customers expect us to take the lead, so 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:54.160 it would be I would say dangerous to not take 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:58.440 that lead from um from your revenue side. But secondly, 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:00.719 the business model we are bildy as the new low 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:04.400 cost so sustainability shows in case by case to be 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:08.160 there the way we will provide low price furniture in 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:11.440 the future. You say, you know a couple of things. 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:13.360 You said it was brilliant for the company, So I'm 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:15.200 wondering if you can put some numbers on that in 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:17.360 terms of the business case for doing all of this. 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:20.280 But I also wonder you said myths to bus because 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:23.840 I can only imagine some of the internal you know discussions. 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:25.520 Yes for that, you folks had it said no, we 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:27.560 can't do that. I know it's good for the environment, 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:29.120 but you know it's going to cost too much or 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:32.080 we can't recreate our supply chain. So give me a 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:35.520 little bit of that that feel. But absolutely, I think 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:37.200 the best number I can give you is that last 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:39.920 year we're very happy and proud that we were able 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:43.280 to grow with some six percent plus, which is a 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:45.880 good decent back a year, and at the same time 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:50.080 we reduced our absolute carbon footprint across the whole scope 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:53.320 one two and three with more than four percent, so 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:55.960 it was possible to show healthy growth and at the 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:59.280 same time a decarbonize if you like. Obviously, we are 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.120 very hum and respectful to the future to continue that 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:05.160 journey with the plan. But that was I think the 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:08.800 first year of proof for us. But then you can 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:11.440 say to the myths. I think there are three myths 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:13.760 that I see over and over again. One is that 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:17.200 purpose and profit don't go hand in hand, which I 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:20.680 think and we think is the opposite. And there is 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:24.040 a very strong if that sustainability should come at the premium, 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:27.400 which I think is very dangerous because then this is 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:30.120 a mass movement that needs to involve everybody on this planet, 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:32.640 so therefore it should be rather seen as the new 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.680 low cost And and finally, there are a lot of 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:39.360 myths around that consumption is all bad, and there is 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:43.319 bad consumption, but there is also sustainable consumption. So these 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:45.360 are the type of topics that sometimes lie in the 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:48.920 way for taking the right type of action. Well, I 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:51.839 do wonder too if things like supply chains, maybe when 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:54.080 you guys set out, you know, in the beginning days 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:56.600 of the company, or even five years ago, ten years ago, 0:08:57.040 --> 0:08:59.800 maybe there weren't as many suppliers or many folks that 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:02.160 you could reach out to. But what I'm hearing today 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:04.240 is a lot of them are out there already, so 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:06.120 that if you want to have a greener business, a 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:09.320 more sustainable business, you can find that in your supply chain. 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:11.400 You just have to make those choices. Is that true? 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:14.160 Is that fair? I would say so it comes down 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.240 to I think from if you look at any type 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:20.200 of industry, I think the entry ticket to anybody and 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:25.400 it's special I would say companies of size that holds responsibility. 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:27.320 So I think you need to start by committing and 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:28.800 there is a bit of a leap of faith in 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:32.640 that commitment to to paris um and you need to 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:35.520 commit to e SD reporting and transparency as well. So 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:38.680 I think these are the entry tickets for anyone. But 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:42.200 then it all comes down to what is your category 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:44.880 plan that you need to put in place. And I 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:47.480 saw it as an introduction here. I saw ben at 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:50.520 shell in in one of the most important industries I 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:53.200 think to be part of the transformation, the fossil fuel industry, 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:56.160 which we are we're part of, and I be um 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:59.319 we we belong to the consumption industry home furnishing. So 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:02.120 we have some different criterias maybe of things that we 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:05.720 need to address. But the important thing is, as much 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:10.240 as it can be inspiring to do the symbolic changes, 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:13.560 we need to address where it's really impacts. Thereby we 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:17.000 need to be able to submester around our activities against 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:20.040 c or two footprint and see that it really makes 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:22.360 sense in the totality. And there are a lot of people. 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:24.440 I think we're still looking for the way how to 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:27.080 do that, But there are many plans around and I 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:29.559 think i Kes plan, which we are happy to share 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:31.960 with the world, is just one of many good examples 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:34.880 or not to do it. Government has to have a 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:37.000 bigger role in this. I mean, you know, here's so 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:39.200 what's so interesting is that in order to get all 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:42.840 this done right at a time when we're pushing back 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:46.280 against globalization, when we're pushing back against cooperation, we've never 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:49.880 needed it, you know, more than ever before, whether it's 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:52.560 on the health pandemic or whether it's on you know, 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:57.480 the climate impact. And yet what's holding that up or 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:00.240 where have you seen progress? What's holding it up? In 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:05.600 your view? Mm hmm, yeah, I think now I must 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:08.240 have it as I belong to the optimists of the world. 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:10.800 So maybe I'm wrong, but I believe we are at 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:12.600 the tipping point right now and you can sense it. 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:16.560 Um that there is of course people who struggle with 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:21.040 admitting the issues, and I do believe that we and 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:23.160 most of us should spend less time on that. We 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:25.520 need to look into the people who are ready to 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:27.760 take a leap here and and contribute to the to 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:31.640 the movement. Because it's also you know, the clock is 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:34.480 thinking and we've probably have vent at what is the 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.960 most important decade in the history of human kind. So 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:41.640 we need to get moving with with actions. And thereby 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:44.480 it's not so much about discussing the problem that is needed, 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:46.920 it's about discussing the actions that needs to be taken 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:50.520 to mitigate the situation. You know, what's interesting and people 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:54.640 are I feel like if you're not necessarily someone who 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:59.240 you know buys into or believes that we're having climate change, 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.080 you know, you guys, get into the science and what 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:04.559 the impact will be. In your sustainability report, you talk 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:08.480 about you know, if we see um, you know, four 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:11.520 degree census increase in terms of the heating of earth. 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:14.360 You right, in this report, our ability to mitigate the 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:16.360 risk is very limited and the cost for the business 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:18.960 are far higher and worth damaging. I mean, we're talking 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:22.200 about the bigger impact we have on our environment. You know, 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:25.840 your access to resources, the cost of resources, um, the 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.720 impact of flooding or fires like, all of this starts 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.400 to add up right on the cost of doing business. 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:34.760 And also it's it's not as healthy environment for people 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:38.040 to live in to work with it. Well, you can 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:40.040 say that to your point, we we have we have 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:44.400 seence money as past the point where climate threat is 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:48.000 a theory, it's a it's a it's it's in our 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:50.840 p mls already and thereby I think it gives us 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:54.200 more motivation you can say on them. On the challenging 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:56.600 side of this from a human perspective is, of course, 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:59.960 if we do everything right from now now on we stay, 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:01.960 we will have to pay for the depth that we 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:06.120 have the last a hundred years or or so. Um. 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:08.640 So we are inherited to turn the trend, obviously, and 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:11.640 we will need to brace ourselves a little bit for 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:13.760 the issues that we have ahead of us. In spite 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.640 of that. But I think it's uh, it's a time 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:19.400 for the world to come together and it's time for leadership, 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:23.200 and I actually do see that if I compare six months, 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:27.520 twelve months, twenty four months back, there is a different 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.760 story right now, Industry after industry, and I think in 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:35.320 particular in the corporate circus, there is uh industry leaders 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:38.719 in every category stepping forward. I have the pleasure to 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:44.080 be part of the Economic Forums Climate Alliance, and that's 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:48.360 a group of very important companies in different categories that 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:51.960 have moved from agreeing on the issue to actually committing 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:55.760 and taking actions. So we see this in in area 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:58.680 after area, and I think to your point, as of course, 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:01.160 this is a collaboration where we need to be very 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:06.200 close to the political leaders of the world because it's 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:10.840 an important collaboration where I think politicians can help to 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:16.800 incentivize and actually catalyze change much much faster if we 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:19.840 work together. So it is an opportunity in particularly now 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:23.200 after COVID has a lot of wise people have mentioned 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:26.400 to build back better, So that's what we need to do. Well, 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:28.880 you know, talk to me about geography. I'm sure that 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:30.840 there are parts of the world where it's tougher for 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:33.000 you guys, where you operate to kind of make the 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:36.640 business case for climate action. Um. There's also parts of 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:40.400 the world that maybe don't embrace you know, um, some 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:44.600 of what's in your DNA, your corporate DNA. UM, whether 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.880 it's China on one hand, or Russia, you know, so 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:51.560 what do you do? What's your thoughts about operating there? 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:54.760 Even if you don't agree with all of their initiatives, 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:57.720 maybe they're not as sustainable as a company or country. 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:01.320 Excuse me, Yeah, now, I think to start, I think 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:04.280 we the the business idea and division of i K 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:06.600 is to be where the many people are, to serve 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:10.640 people within the wallets with great term furnishing. And thereby 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:13.760 you can say we are slow and long term in 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:16.280 a way, so we don't enter a market and step 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:21.200 out over night. But we progress with investments, with our 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:24.960 physical investments, with our digital investments, and our long term 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:27.920 goal is obviously to try to be where there are people. 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:30.680 So therefore we're happy to be in Russia and China 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:35.160 and us in India we have just recently started as well. 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:41.080 Then obviously politically changed tends to come with a shorter 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:45.680 cycles sometimes um. And there you know, we have little 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:49.560 opportunity to to do others than to adapt to realities. 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:54.360 We have had decades of open trade and now we 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:57.560 have had recently a period where this has been more difficult. 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.440 With all the respect for the situation in the world, 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:04.560 I think so far in our way of viewing it, 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:10.080 collaboration of the borders tend to both be good long 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:13.120 term for both jobs and for for consumers. So sometimes 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:15.760 this this can be a struggle. But at the same time, 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:18.520 I think we are at the place where we try 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:20.560 to reach out and try to see how we can 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:22.720 influence in a positive way in the society where we 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:28.520 where we act. I do wonder too if you think, um, 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:32.320 it's easier for you guys to be sustainable because it's 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:34.800 a foundation that owns the company, right, and there's it's 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:38.320 a different court. It's not a corporate structure, a publicly 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:41.720 health company where every quarterly or every half year you 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:45.800 guys are reporting your financial Does that give you a 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:48.560 leg up in doing all of this? I think so. 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:53.160 To be honest, I think some of my fellow colleagues 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:56.480 CEOs who are on the stock market, for example, where 0:16:56.480 --> 0:17:00.960 can we quarterly UH targets have a different situations that 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:06.679 maybe that we have an eye have being long term, 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:09.520 foundation based and also a foundation that works with in 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:11.520 the end of the day's charity for people and planet. 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:14.640 So I think definitely so. And at the same time, 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:17.359 we can still serve as an example because the investments 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:20.560 we make are not about charity. They are they are 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:24.800 fundamental transformations into a better business. So in a way, 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:27.119 I think it's okay that we can serve as an 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:30.160 example for that. And then then I think it takes 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:33.200 a lot of carriage today to be a leader because 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:37.240 at the end of the day you have stakeholder capitalism 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:39.359 to care for. But at the end of the day, 0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:41.199 I think you need to also face your own family, 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:45.159 your your your friends, yourself and at the at this 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:47.479 time there is an opportunity for each one of us 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:50.600 to do what we believe is right. And in some 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:54.680 cases that can be easier said than done. But if 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:57.360 we are a critical massive companies that move in this direction, 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:02.520 we will basically reshift competitive landscape. And that's what actually 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:06.520 is happening as we speak, including what how cons respond 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:09.840 to brands. Well, that's I think a really significant part 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:11.879 of it. You know, I think about my co host 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:15.200 on our radio shop, Bloomberg Business Week. We both have kids, 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:18.120 you know, and kids who are turning around looking about 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:20.399 you know, what are the ingredients and something, or looking 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.520 at we are company manufacturers, what's the climate and you 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:27.679 know how much water is wasted in manufacturing? How significant 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:31.920 is that in terms of again supporting the business case 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.680 for being sustainable, for being green and what you do? 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:36.800 I mean we talk about it so much, yes, for 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:38.960 um and I know it's important to me, But I 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:42.159 do wonder is that becoming much more significant? Do you 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:44.760 guys talk about it in like a boardroom? Do board 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:47.440 you know, our boards having these discussions because they understand 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:51.680 it's important. I think so. To be honest, a few 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:54.920 years ago, I think it was more difficult to bring 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:59.960 in those personal abuse but also the the many parts 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:04.600 of the equation here. So again back to the myth 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:07.879 that profit, profit and purpose were two different words, and 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:10.240 I think we belong to the lack of ones in 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:12.800 that case. We have the very good discussions and we 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:15.080 are challenged by our board to do a better job 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:19.960 when it comes to sustainability, including communicating it. So but 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.200 again I think we are at the tipping point where 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:24.760 this is becoming the new reality. And you know how 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:27.879 it works when when you create a momentum saddly, it 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:32.240 becomes very lonely on the other side. UM. And from 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:35.400 a customer perspective, what we see is dramatic and there 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:37.679 is no difference in the world if we go from 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:40.240 market the market, if you go from China to U 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:43.880 as the sweder and the concerns are up in the 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:46.800 eighties nineties. Of all the people we interview, and we 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:49.000 interview a lot of people on this topic, they are 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:53.639 concerned typically and they also typically struggle with understanding how 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:57.359 they can impact. And of course consumers can impact to 0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:01.320 start with by shooting what brands to I from? And 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:03.320 this is getting more and more clear. And in particular, 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:06.199 I think when you go down to the younger generations 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:09.399 of the consumers, they are more picky, they are better 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:12.440 in researching, and they're very demanding. And so I think 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:15.240 in a way the consumer trends are helping us to 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:18.159 to take some decisions. Hey, one thing I want to 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:20.480 ask you, because you just got about five minutes left. Um. 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:23.199 In addition to being climate positive by twenty you are 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:26.240 committed to being circular by then as well, which is 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:30.320 fascinating to me. It's changing waste into resources across your operations, 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:33.640 enable people at home to do so as well. This 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:37.879 is basically how you get rid of waste. It's massive, um, 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:42.639 how do you do that? Well? It's like like many 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:45.480 things in sustainability, there's not like one silver bullets, I 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:47.600 would say. So I think every company is to look 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:52.240 at their their footprint. It also materials, should say. But 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:54.119 then again, when you start to pick them in the 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:56.840 right order, you find a lot of opportunities. So in 0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:00.959 our case to recycled paper and recyite a plastic for example, 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:04.240 it's a business benefit, it's not a problem m And 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:05.879 then then you can go all the way to some 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:08.560 of the material equations that we have not yet found 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:12.440 a good solution for. So it's like case by case, 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:14.680 you work your way. But if you if you look 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:18.199 at it placed the investments we did in the Netherlands 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:21.040 for a model that is being scaled out to more markets, 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:24.040 is how do you bring back matrices and how do 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:27.880