WEBVTT - Burned from the Mind’s Eye, Part 2 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.760 My Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:13.680 of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, welcome to 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:15.960 Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:19.000 and I'm Joe McCormick, and we are back with part 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:23.360 two of our discussion of psychic photography, the press of 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:26.479 the Mind's Eye. That's right. We kicked off last episode 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:32.680 talking about the ring in which a psychically gifted, disturbed 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:36.600 little girl is able to use her the power of 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:42.040 her mind to burn images into things, including into the 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:45.600 the film of a VHS tape, sure, but also into 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:48.440 all kinds of surfaces. Right. Yeah, But but she's most 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:53.239 famous for her her video work is the video artist. Yeah, 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:57.280 she's a video artist, true artist and true artistrington. Yeah, 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:00.320 so that's where we started off. But we used then 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:04.600 to get into this idea of photography of uh, this 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:09.440 this alleged psychic power by which certain individuals were able 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:12.800 to use the powers of their mind, uh to either 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:18.400 you know, focused mental images into say, undeveloped camera film, 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:21.320 or make it so they could like point a camera 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:24.720 at their own forehead and take a picture of the 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:28.920 interior imaging of their mind. Things of that nature. Yeah, 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:32.080 The idea was that somehow mental imagery, you know, things 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:36.000 that you are picturing in your brain could be projected 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:39.120 out onto the world without being translated through you know, 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:43.199 you putting them into language or you sketching with a hand. Um. 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:46.120 And so I was wondering if you try to take 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.880 this idea seriously and say, okay, if this really did work, 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:54.000 how would it work. I was having trouble coming across 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:57.120 anything that seemed all that plausible to me. Uh, you know, 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:00.800 I found one article with somebody's talking about how, well, 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:06.080 maybe consciousness is like an electromagnetic field. I'm not sure 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:07.880 if I buy that. But even if you did buy 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:11.520 the consciousness as an electromagnetic field, how exactly would that 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:15.480 translate into you thinking about an image physically pressing the 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:17.800 image onto a thing outside your brain, Because there's no 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:20.840 reason to think that the electromagnetic field would be like 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:23.919 a two dimensional image that's the same as the thing 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:27.919 you're picturing. Yeah, and then, I mean there's so many 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:31.040 problems with it's almost difficult to roll out individual problems, 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:34.639 like what would be the evolved necessity of doing that? 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:37.440 You know why, it would have to just be like 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:41.440 an accidental byproduct or something, you know, random mutation. Uh, 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:43.920 and then would there be a survival advantage to having 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:49.760 that mutation? And it gets it gets really sticky, really fast. Yeah, 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:54.320 And I think it highlights a kind of like shallow 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:57.360 understanding of what mental image re is. So yeah, and 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:00.799 then specifically what photography is concerning those examples of the 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:04.080 thoughtography that we discussed in the last episode. Yes, exactly. 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:07.000 So I thought maybe we should start today by thinking 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:11.880 about what is the physical reality of an image in 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:15.359 the mind's eye when you okay, so stopping, you picture something, 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:20.680 you picture Garfield Garfield in mind? What is happening in 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:25.000 your brain when you picture Garfield? Like, is there some 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:28.760 two dimensional grid of brain cells that's like a screen 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:32.320 where colors fill in like pixels on a computer screen 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:36.440 and they form Garfield. It seems kind of implausible, but 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:39.600 you know, entertained that for a second, if there were 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:43.120 a way for a mental image to be projected into 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:46.680 a physical space, what would be the physical nature of 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:49.680 the original signal in the brain, and how would it 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:53.560 be transferred to the physical form without being interpreted through 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:55.600 the body. So I was looking at a couple of 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:59.160 papers on the subject of like research and thought about 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:01.760 mental imagery, and one one of the ones I was 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.840 looking at was called Unpicturing a Candle The Prehistory of 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:08.760 Imagery Science, and this was published in Frontiers and Psychology 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:15.480 by Matthew mckissics, Susan Aldworth, Fiona McPherson, John Onion's, Crawford Winlove, 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:18.039 and Adam Zema, and this a lot of names. Uh 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:22.440 In and the authors here focus on the history of 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:28.080 scholarship and philosophy concerning visual imagination before modern neuroscience, but 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:32.600 they also cover some modern neuroscience with a specific focus 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:36.480 on the idea of imagining a concrete object, for example, 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:41.520 picturing a candle. And so the authors explored the history 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:44.039 and so for example, they start by looking at like 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:47.080 Plato and Aristotle, and they point out that Plato actually 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:50.159 did not hold a very high regard for the importance 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:54.920 of mental imagination. Uh Like for Plato, mental imagery is 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:57.159 a copy of a copy. It is a sort of 0:04:57.240 --> 0:05:01.320 imperfect fac simile of an object in the world, which 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:05.920 is already merely an imperfect copy of a perfect divine form. 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:09.000 That we're getting into the idea of the realm of forms. 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.640 Uh the idea that a chair, that there's a perfect 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:14.919 version of a chair that exists in the realm of forms. 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:19.200 The chair we can build is an imperfect interpretation of that. 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:23.080 But then the but then his view is because I'm 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:24.680 more likely to think of it the other way, like 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:27.200 I'm thinking, then, oh, well, the version of the chair 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:29.800 in our mind, that's the realm of forms. But he's saying, no, 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:34.120 that's that's even another level removed from the realm of forms. 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:37.640 It's an imperfect version of the imperfect chair that is 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:41.080 in itself an imperfect version of the ideal chair. Absolutely, 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:44.440 your mental image of a pineapple is a flawed copy 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:48.240 of some actual pineapple, which is an imperfect realization of 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:51.400 eternal pineapple nous. Yeah, and I and I think I 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:53.960 think he is correct here, because, as we stayed in 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:57.800 the last episode, we often we often a tribute a 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:02.120 lot of detail and accuracy to our total images when 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:05.280 they're when it's really not there. It's it's often a 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:10.080 lot more obscure and unfinished than we give it credit. Yeah, 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:12.080 I mean, I almost wouldn't think about it in terms 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:14.480 of accuracy, but in terms and maybe this is more 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:17.480 specific to the way my brain works, but I think 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:20.680 about it even in terms of completeness, like that, when 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:23.400 I have a mental image of something, it's not the 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:26.719 same as looking at the thing, because I'm not I'm 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:30.760 only vaguely grasping the totality of the image. When I'm 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.520 mentally picture something, it's not like it's just not like 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:37.520 looking at a fixed version of the image. It's kind 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:41.520 of like a hazy scanning of different little elements of 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:44.920 the image that I can picture in a moment against 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:48.320 a field of a general impression of the larger image. 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:50.520 Does that make sense? Yeah? Yeah, I believe. An example 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:53.000 that's often used here is that of a bicycle. If 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:56.479 I say, hey, imagine a bicycle. Easy done. I'm imagining 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:58.320 a bicycle right now. But if we go to the 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:01.800 next step and say that bicycle you're imagining, describe for 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:04.760 me the functionality of its, of the of the wheels 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:08.120 and the gears and the pedals and everything explained to 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:10.280 me how that works? Oh yeah. This goes back to 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:14.840 our illusion of explanatory depth episodes where everybody can picture 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:18.200 a bicycle, but can you draw a bicycle? And it 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.160 turns out it's just try it. You might end up 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:23.600 laughing really hard at yourself because you think you can 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:26.440 draw a bicycle, but there's a decent chance you can't. 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:30.720 You don't know where the bars go, which wheel connects 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:33.360 to what? You just don't know, even though you think 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:36.840 you can picture it right now. So again, Plato, I 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.640 think was definitely onto something here. I think Plato hit 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:42.840 this one out of the park. Yeah. But Aristotle, to 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:46.240 the contrary, he thought that not only was mental image 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:49.880 rey important, he thought that you literally could not think 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:53.880 without it. They quote him saying, the soul never thinks 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:57.080 without a phantasma, and the phantasma is like some kind 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:59.920 of mental image, which I'm sure this would come as 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:02.760 news to our many listeners who tell us about their 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:06.680 experiences with a fantasia, meaning that they say they don't 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:10.320 have the ability to form mental images, they can't picture 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:12.680 something in their heads. And yet you know, we've got 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:14.840 no reason to disbelieve them on that. And at the 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:18.000 same time, they seem perfectly capable of thinking. So it 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:21.080 seems perfectly clear to me that mental imagery is not 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:25.440 necessary for thought, right, it is necessary for choosing the 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:30.080 form of the destroyer should gozer Uh, the traveler appear 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:32.400 to you. I have been think back at that scene 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:35.960 and Ghostbusters. Uh, that's how they choose the stay puff 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:39.400 marshmallow man form. But you have all of the Ghostbusters 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:43.200 had had a fantasia, then the the Destroyer would not 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:45.480 have been able to manifest. I think you said that 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:48.240 in the original episode. Probably did. I haven't thought about 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:50.800 it since then. But that's great unless goes Are the 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:53.280 Destroyer is even more nefarious than we imagine, and he 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:57.480 can also manifest in the shape of something that you 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:01.360 put together through say words or whatever. Maybe, but I 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:05.480 kind of like the idea that it's being an interdimensional entity. 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:08.480 It's it's limited, and it really like it. It cannot 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:13.120 venture into this form unless there is a clear visual 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:15.600 image that it can draw from. Like that has to 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:19.439 be the uh, the the foothold for it to climb 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:21.959 back in and begin destroying. Well, to tie it back 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:24.920 to psychic photography, actually this is what the case of 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:27.920 goes Are taking the form you imagine would be exactly 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:30.920 like thoughtography. It would be the case of mental imagery 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:34.680 being manifested as a physical object in the world. Yeah, 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:36.880 but but it would also it would make more sense 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:41.360 that a god can read your mind, then your mind 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:46.760 can blast a photo, blast an image onto some undeveloped film, 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:50.680 I agree. Uh. So picking up again with the history 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:54.439 of mental imagery, Uh, Descartes had thoughts about visual imagination, 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:58.800 apparently placed it on par with the senses as manifestations 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:02.040 of the body would. Of course, in descartess view, that 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:05.239 makes them fallible, because of course they can always be mistaken, 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:08.640 unlike in his view pure logical deduction. If you were 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:12.599 call like the fight between Descartes and the the empiricists. 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:15.160 You know, the empiricists thought that the senses should be primary, 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:18.000 but deckart thought, no, you can't ever fully trust the senses. 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:20.760 You've got to go on just like pure logical proofs. 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:23.240 I'm not quite sure why, for some reason that that 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.400 seems like a funny belief looking back on it now. 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:30.120 Of course, later mental imagery became the domain of psychology. Uh. 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:32.199 And of course you know that that would be treated 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:35.040 in different ways depending on the different schools of psychology. 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:36.959 One thing that I think is interesting in the history 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:40.320 of psychology is the behaviorist school, of course, not being 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:45.640 interested in mental imagery because it's not an outwardly measurable behavior. 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:49.520 So J. B. Watson apparently referred to mental imagery as 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:53.920 quote motor habits in the larynx, which I think is 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:57.000 a behaviorist way of saying something you only know about 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:02.160 because people talk about it. I am continually fascinated by 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:06.320 thinking about behaviorism because we occasionally hear from people. Uh, 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:08.800 We've gotten a couple of listener emails over the years, 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:11.840 people responding to topics from a behaviorist point of view, 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:16.600 essentially not crediting anything that's about the inner experiences or 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:20.160 consciousness of people. It's only you know, the psychology can 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:24.520 only be about outwardly measured behaviors. Yeah, it's a statement 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:26.520 like that. Then it makes me wonder if J. V. 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:30.160 Watson was perhaps perhaps had a fantasia. You know, I 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:32.760 mean this idea because we this lines up with what 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:34.959 we've heard from a lot of people who's claimed to 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:37.520 have a fantasia. And they'll say, oh, yeah, I heard 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:40.000 people talking about picturing something in their mind when they 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:42.320 read a book, and I thought they were just being 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:44.920 you know, it was just figurative, you know, they weren't 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:47.760 saying that they actually saw something in their head. Like 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:51.920 it's it seems like it is difficult to imagine the 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.560 mental image if you have no frame of reference for it, 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:57.559 you know, uh, yeah, except I would say that for Watson, 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:00.920 it's not just mental imagery. It's all internal mental phenomena. 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:04.760 I mean, it's everything that's not outward behavior. So it 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:07.040 wouldn't be just I think he would probably think that 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:09.200 mental imagery is not the only thing. That's just a 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:13.440 motor habit in the larynx. That uh that I don't know, imagination, that, 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:16.600 like anything inside your head, is a motor habit in 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:18.920 the larynx. Do you think Ether would have changed his 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:23.280 mind at all? I don't know. Then again, maybe I'm 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:25.080 not being fair. I don't want to put words in 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:28.480 Watson's mouth, but uh, yeah, So I think we don't 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:31.520 need to feel bound by the behaviorist view of this thing, 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:34.160 and we can entertain the idea of mental imagery. You 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.959 experience it, other people say they experience it. You've got 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:39.560 no reason to disbelieve them. So I think humans probably 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:43.959 have mental imagery. But but long in history, it has 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:49.920 clearly been assumed that there is some kind of physical representation, 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:55.439 space and perceiver within the brain for mental imagery. Uh. 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:57.640 And one thing I'm thinking about that I came across 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:00.360 while preparing for this episode is an illustration by the 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:05.840 sixteenth seventeenth century English physician and occultist Robert Flood spelled 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:09.200 f l U d D kind of like Elmer Flood 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:14.480 Flood with an L flood, also like Randall Flag. Oh yeah, 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:16.720 that's true. Maybe this is one of the incarnations of 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:20.040 the Man from the Desert. But anyway, and one of 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:25.120 Robert Flood's tracks he illustrated the eye of imagination or 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:30.360 the oculus imagination onus, which was this third eye inside 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:33.559 the brain which getting it wrong and backwards in multiple ways, 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:38.679 projected mental images onto some kind of screen or representation 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:41.080 space in the back or like in the back of 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:44.319 the head or behind the head, where mental images would 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:48.000 take form after being projected by this third eye. And now, 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:50.480 of course we know that the eye does not project 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:55.559 a beam of seeing, but receives incoming light. So even yeah, 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.560 I think we're we're confused in more ways than one here. Yeah, Like, 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:01.920 if there really were a tiny viewing screen inside the 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:03.800 brain and an eye to see it, it would be 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.679 too dark to watch the movie, right right, So that 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:08.960 would be a problem. But but yeah, I mean, like, 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:13.280 I think third eye views are are popular throughout history. 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.559 People kind of think there's an observer in the observer right, 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:19.880 and and granted, we do have a pennial gland, which 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:24.160 is essentially an atrophied photo receptor with some connections to 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:29.280 the parietal eye of reptiles. But but it produces uh, melotonin, 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.600 a serotonin derived hormone, and is not involved in the 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:35.400 generation of mental images, or at least I don't think 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:38.440 there's any evidence, and not that I've ever seen. Uh. 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:41.000 This is funny because I was reading that deck Hart 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:44.120 believed that the penneal gland was the point of interaction 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:48.680 between the body and the immaterial soul. Did you know this, um? 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:51.640 May We did. We did episode on the pineal gland 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:54.600 way back in the day, so it's possible I came 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:57.360 across this. Yeah, But I'm thinking back to this idea 0:14:57.400 --> 0:14:59.680 of having, yeah, a viewer inside the viewer like an 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:04.160 in internal I inside the brain for mental imagery. And 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:07.640 there are reasons I think that there are problems with 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:11.320 this because if in order to see mental images we 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:16.160 have to project them physically somewhere inside the brain, what 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:18.560 is the part of the brain that is looking at 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:24.000 the image? Is it another brain with eyes inside the brain? Uh? 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:28.040 Incognitive philosophy, this is sometimes called the homunculous theory. That's 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:30.640 a you know, a name of ridicule for it, like 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:32.880 the idea that there has to be somebody inside your 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:35.800 brain to see what your brain is seeing or thinking. Right, 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:39.040 as with like the homunculous ideas and human reproduction where 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:42.200 there's a tiny little version of you inside of a 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:46.320 sperm cell. Yes, and like the homunculous idea of of reproduction, 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:49.360 it's an infinite regress, right, because if there's a little 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:51.720 eyes and a brain inside your head in order to 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:54.480 see what you're thinking, then that brain must have little 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:56.680 eyes and a brain inside that brain to see what 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.440 that brain is thinking about. And it goes on forever. 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.200 And another version of this extended to total brain function 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:07.440 is what Daniel Dennett calls the Cartesian theater. Again, this 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:12.320 is something he's he's ridiculing. Basically, it's uh imagining or 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:15.320 implicitly assuming that the brain has some sort of little 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:18.640 pilot inside who witnesses all of our sense data and 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:22.960 controls our reactions um. And again it's basically a reductive 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:25.920 ad absurdam because it leads to this infinite regress. Who's 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:29.000 seeing the images inside the brain and the homunculus or 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:32.440 the pilot or the Cartesian theater must be another smaller one. 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:35.040 So I don't think it can be that inside the brain, 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.680 mental images are seen the same way our eyes see 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:42.440 things in the world. So what actually is happening in 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:45.000 the brain when you're asked to imagine a concrete image. 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:46.800 Maybe we should take a break and then explore that 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:49.720 when we come back. Yes, everyone think of a bicycle 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:55.960 during this commercial break. Than alright, we're back, and hopefully 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:59.320 you stall that bicycle floating around inside your mind. We 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:03.840 should give them something more interesting to picture concretely, something 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:07.640 with details. Picture a demogorgan. The demogorgan is good. Yeah, 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:13.880 it's just interesting how many like fabled unreal entities are 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:17.600 good things to focus your mind on. And I think 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:20.920 it perhaps it's because there are there are combinations, they're 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:25.280 they're hybrids with different elements. So you you're you're, you 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:27.600 know what, You're kind of thinking of a list and 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:33.000 compiling that list into this single mental image and ultimately 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.720 gives you something to focus on, right, But the details 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:39.320 are provided to you. Whereas the bicycle, you're just saying bicycle, 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:43.560 we're not saying, imagine a contraption with two wheels, and 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:49.960 there's etcetera. Two wheels and nine tentacles and three baboon heads. Yes, yes, 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:51.640 and in one hand the sun and in the other 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:55.000 hand the moon. Okay, Now, when you do picture the demogorgan, 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:58.840 what is actually happening in your brain? Has modern neuroscience 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:03.560 discovered any answers to this question? Actually the answer is yes, 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:05.679 we do know a decent amount. We don't know everything. 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:08.000 We know a decent amount about what happens in the brain. 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:12.280 When you picture mental imagery. Um, So, brain cells in 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:15.439 the temporal lobe, and this is the temporal lobes are 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:17.760 at the bottom and sides of the brain, sort of 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:22.560 around the ears. They become activated. And previous research has 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:26.800 shown that the temporal lobes are involved in attributing and 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:32.200 storing information about the visual characteristics of objects. So normally, 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:36.040 like when you see something, uh, information might there might 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:38.399 be activity in the temporal lobes that seems to be 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:42.960 creating associations with the thing you're looking at. Right, like 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:47.520 the foam on the walls in our studio. They look 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:50.200 like tiny pyramids. So I can look at one of those, 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:52.960 and then I can I can't help but imagine a 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:56.160 great pyramid. Yes, and So what's happening there when you're 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:58.879 using your eyes is probably that lights coming through the eyes, 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:03.360 signals are asking from your optic nerve, from your retina's 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:06.040 tear optic nerve, and uh, they're ending up in the 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:08.840 visual processing areas in the back of your head, and 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.880 that's known as the occipital cortex, the back of the head, 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:15.960 and then that start signals that cascade out to other 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.320 brain regions. Where you form those associations probably has a 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:22.360 lot to do with your temporal lobes. But when you're 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:25.320 asked to picture something concrete, like I say, picture the 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:28.439 Great Pyramids of Giza, uh, we seem to be starting 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:32.160 with activity that involves visual memory. So there's stuff going 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:35.560 on in the temporal lobes, and the excitation of these 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:38.600 cells then triggers activity in the visual cortices of the 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:41.120 occipital lobe. Again that's the very back of the head. 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:43.639 And of course this is the same part of the 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:47.080 brain that receives and begins to process visual information received 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:49.560 by the retina transmitted by the optic nerve when you 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:52.639 normally see something. And the authors of this paper I 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:55.720 mentioned earlier, they they point out that when you conjure 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:59.000 mental imagery. It's not exactly, but it's sort of roughly 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:03.119 an invert of the process of seeing with the eyes. Basically, 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:07.800 it's similar cascades going in opposite directions. And it also, 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:09.880 i would say, seems to suggest that if it were 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:14.360 possible to project an image from ted serious head onto film, 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:17.280 if anything, he should have been holding the gizmo and 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:19.640 the camera on the back of his head rather than 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:22.240 the forehead. Because it seems like the activity is going 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:26.000 from a sort of beginning with uh, with executive function. 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:29.720 Of course, that's uh, you know, intentionally causing the memories. 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:33.240 Then there's memory stuff in the temporal lobes, and then 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:35.399 it's going to the occipital lobe in the back of 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:37.240 the head. I'll see, if you'd only known that, it 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:40.880 would have worked every time. Now, why do you need 0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:44.320 executive function in the front of the brain as well? Well? 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:47.840 Apparently that's involved in intentionally trying to call up and 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:52.479 hold mental images. So like conscious management of what's happening 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:55.879 in the brain tends to be thought that that's executive function. 0:20:55.960 --> 0:21:00.520 It's deliberate thinking and maintenance of attention, and that entails 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:03.400 activity in the frontal and parietal regions of the brain, 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:06.520 so stuff up front and to the front and sides. UH. 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:10.280 And mental imagery may also involve executive function because it 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:16.359 requires the suppression of incoming imagery from the eyes or 0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:21.560 at least the diversion of visual processing resources from quote 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:25.120 signals based on light entering the eyes right now too, 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:29.680 images generated from memory. It's crazy to think about the 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:31.640 and I'm thinking about it in this terms because we're 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:33.960 also researching an episode that has to do with driving 0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:36.560 and the what's going on in your mind when you 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:40.600 drive an automobile? And isn't it crazy that we can 0:21:40.640 --> 0:21:46.760 engage in the cognitively demanding job of say, driving a 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:51.080 speeding automobile down an interstate, watching what all the cars 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:54.320 are doing, and you know, reading an occasional sign, looking 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:56.880 out for speed traps, all of these things that we're doing, 0:21:57.000 --> 0:22:00.280 and at the same time, we might have an audio 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:03.879 book playing that is filling our head with like with 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:07.600 a you know, a rich visual world, and we're entertaining 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:09.840 both of these at the same time. I would say 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:13.479 that that is while I accept that we can handle 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:15.320 those things both, at the same time, I would say 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:18.920 it is not without costs to UH. To either one, 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:21.440 Like I would say that you probably have a more 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:25.919 rich experience of the book and mental image reassociated with 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:28.399 the book if you were not driving, and you'd probably 0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:30.639 be better at driving if you were not listening to 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:34.520 the book, because there is actually a competition for resources 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:38.240 going on. Yeah, yeah, no doubt. I mean, of course 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:40.439 that I think a lot of us tend to to 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:44.159 read in environments where there are other distractions. Maybe not 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:48.720 as cognitively demanding as piloting an automobile, but but still, 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:50.400 this would be an interesting one to get some feedback 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:52.120 from listeners, because I know that we have a number 0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:54.480 of listeners who who are on the road a lot 0:22:54.560 --> 0:22:56.359 and listen listen to us on the road and listen 0:22:56.359 --> 0:22:59.960 to to other bits of audio as well. Yeah, that's 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:02.520 a good point. Please only listen to our podcast if 0:23:02.680 --> 0:23:07.320