WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 127 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:05.360 Al Zone Media. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.520 wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode. 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:11.800 So every episode of the week that just happened is 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:15.680 here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:17.880 for you to listen to in a long stretch if 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:20.280 you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:22.080 day this week, there's going to be nothing new here 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:24.600 for you, but you can make your own decisions. 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:28.960 Either snow nor rain, nor heat nor darkness can stop 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:31.720 the Persian Courier Service. Welcome to Dick it Out here, 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:35.440 a podcast about postal services. Who reasked the question can 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:39.879 the American capitalist class finally stop the American post Office? 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:43.080 I'm your host, Mio Long and with me to talk 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:46.520 about what is going on with the post office, what's 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:50.520 going on with the post office unions, and yeah, how 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:53.920 things are going downhill for the noble people who carry 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:57.320 your mail. Is Tommy Espinoza, who's a union steward for 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:00.800 the National Association of Letter Carriers to welcome to the show. 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.040 Thank you so much for having me, Thank you so 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:07.760 much for giving us the mail care dollars, the male 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:10.160 carriers a platform to stand on. 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:13.000 Yeah, I'm really I'm really happy to you and I'm 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:14.720 really happy to get to talk to you about this. 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:18.880 So I think the place we should start is with 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:23.360 a bunch of very very weird stuff in how labor 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:27.640 law works. So, Okay, for like most people in the 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:30.080 United States, you have a fatally protected right to strike 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:32.679 if you have a union. That is not true for 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:36.920 federal employees. That is especially not true for members of 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:42.000 the Post Office, and that is a real issue because 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:44.880 the government has decided that, like, yeah, I know, all 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:47.920 these people who do vital service are not allowed to 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:52.320 go on strike and it absolutely sucks. Yeah, So I 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:56.520 think this gets into sort of where I want to start, 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:59.320 which is with the sort of history of the National 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:03.120 Association of Life Carriers, a union that is not allowed 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:06.560 to strike, and how sort of weird that is. So yeah, 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:07.800 I was wondering if you could talk a bit about 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:10.800 sort of the origins of the union and what effect 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:15.040 that has had on how organizing works or doesn't work. 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:21.240 Yeah, the right to strike has been a rather divisive topic. 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:26.640 I'm sure you're familiar with unions and just generally people 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:30.360 on our side of our side of politics to be 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:34.480 infighting a lot I shouldn't come to a surprise. 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:39.880 So in nineteen sixty nine. 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:43.079 Just over fifty years ago, the salary for postal workers 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:46.600 was under two dollars an hour. People were working months 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:49.920 straight with no days off, and those were close to 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:56.000 twelve hour days, And so these postal workers at the 0:02:56.040 --> 0:03:00.680 time qualified for welfare and decided in nine teen seventy 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:05.560 to go on strike despite it being illegal. This conversation 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.960 is not new. It was illegal then, it's illegal now. 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:12.440 And I do want to be crystal clear here. I 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:16.680 am not advocating for a strike that would also be 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:19.560 against the law, and we don't advocate for anything that's 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:24.919 against the law. What I do want to advocate for 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:30.600 is the right to strike, because being quasi federal, there's 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:34.239 a lot of limitations in what the NAOC and the 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:39.240 general postal unions are able to do. In total, there 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:44.320 are nine bargaining agreements and seven unions within the Post Office, 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:48.240 some of which are the manager's unions, so take that 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:53.680 as it is. Yet, on top of not being able 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:56.440 to strike, none of our money that we collect as 0:03:56.520 --> 0:04:00.400 union does can be used for lobbying purposes, so they 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:04.760 can't support a single candidate or any of the parties involved. 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:08.240 We have a separate fund for that with the NALC 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:11.960 called the Letter Carrier's Political Fund, to try and circumvent 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:15.440 the restrictions that are put on there. And as a 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:18.960 result of that, it's like we're fighting with our hands 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:24.200 tied behind our back. We are unable to organize effectively. 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:29.600 Our union leadership seems to be afraid of protests and 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:35.240 picketing for fear that it'll be misconstrued or labeled as 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:40.279 a strike, and they're I think generally afraid of public opinion. 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:44.280 Yeah, that's a debilitating set of conditions because you've effectively 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:48.359 taken away sort of the two major tools that you know, 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:52.640 I mean unions of basically across all political stripes used, right, 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:55.480 You've taken away the ability to strike. You've taken away 0:04:55.520 --> 0:05:00.440 the ability to use your due's money to influence actions. 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:03.640 So this immediately means you've taken away the tool that 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:06.440 sort of Milton unions use, which strikes, and you've taken 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:08.680 away the tools that more conservative unions use, which is 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:13.400 buying attempting to buy politicians. And then also your leadership 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.239 is like we can't strike, I mean, we can't protest 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:18.080 because someone might think it's a strike and the public 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:21.000 might commenitus, and it's like that that doesn't seem I 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:23.000 don't know, it really seems like it's like it's not 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:25.000 only have you tied both hands behind your back, you've 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:27.160 like tied them behind your back to your legs and 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:29.160 you're now rolling around on the ground. 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:33.200 Right, And to talk about what happens when we push 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:36.960 past all of these barriers and just do it anyways? 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:40.200 You know, in March nineteen seventy, two hundred and ten 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:45.080 thousand postal workers defied law, defied the general leadership of 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:49.080 the time. And it all started in New York where 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:56.559 people clocked in and at nine o'clock they just walked out. Soon, 0:05:57.160 --> 0:06:01.880 let's see, it was Cleveland, Chicago, Los Angeles. The nation 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:05.760 joined very shortly after. Once it broke the news that 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:11.400 they were calling for a national strike. Nixon called in 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:15.000 the National Guard to try and deliver mail, and the 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:18.000 National Guard had no idea what they were doing. There's 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:22.760 an amazing video that I'll try and send you afterwards. 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:27.599 It's just the National Guard at our cases where we 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:31.880 sort the mail. An interviewer is asking him, do you 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:34.960 think that you're doing a good job? It's just like, no, 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:38.960 it's just some kid, you know. And don't get me wrong, 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:43.320 I'm just some guy. But you need the training, you 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.440 need to know what you're doing. And it's not something 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:49.120 that anyone can pick up in a day, but it's 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:52.000 a job that anyone can do. But yeah, for the 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:56.080 first time, the mail had stopped, and that won us 0:06:56.240 --> 0:07:01.280 collective bargaining binding arbitration, which is a process that I 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:04.599 think most people within unions know what they mean, but 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:09.520 to explain it, arbitration is what happens when our parties 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:14.920 cannot agree on a settlement for a grievance, and eventually 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:19.360 we call in a third party, an arbitrator to decide 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:22.320 for us, and those are generally lawyers. On top of 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:26.240 binding arbitration, it gave us a new pay scale and 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:27.440 set in motion. 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:29.280 I think over. 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.880 It's got to be hundreds of raises between the colas 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:37.679 and the new pay table. It used to be twenty 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:40.600 one years for you to reach the top pay scale, 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:47.480 which is absolutely ridiculous, and I think it's eight. Yeah, 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.360 So the post Office was forced to reorganize, and so 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:53.640 is the union. This is where the American Postal Workers 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:57.480 Union was born and from this strike, we were able 0:07:57.520 --> 0:08:02.160 to settle on the National Agreement. So there's the National Agreement, 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:06.920 which is our binding contract. There's the JCAM, which is 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:11.680 the Joint Contract Administration Manual, just what the Post Office 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:15.720 and the Union use as the interpretation of the contract. 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:21.000 That way, we are not arguing and spending time about 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:23.960 what the contract could mean. We can just focus on 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:29.000 whether or not someone broke our agreement. So after this, 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:35.160 one would imagine that a quasi federal institution would honor 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:38.960 the contract that was created, argain in good faith, and 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:39.960 treat their employees. 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:40.960 Isn't that right? 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.280 Yeah, I know it's spoken like someone who has never 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:47.040 watched a federal cod action. 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:50.120 Yeah. Absolutely not. 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:56.080 Before we get into issues that we face today, I 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:58.200 do want to say that one of the main goals 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:03.360 of our contract negotiations, or of this episode really is 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:09.280 to create public knowledge of how our contract is not 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.880 being adhered to. If there was one main goal that 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:15.640 I'd have in mind, is just to have the Post 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:19.240 Office honor what they signed and agreed to do. 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:20.960 Yeah. 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:25.080 I mean, this is something that it's a part of 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:27.800 being in a union that doesn't get talked about very much, 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:30.480 which is that the contract doesn't mean anything unless the 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:33.800 union enforces it, because the moment the contract happens, the 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:37.200 bosses will attempt to not abide by it. And this 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:39.840 is what a lot of union militancy back in the 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.280 sort of heyday of militancy was. I mean, like, you know, 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.560 if you look at like how the UAW worked in 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:48.560 like the sixties, right, they'd have a guy with a 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.080 whistle standing on the line, and if someone did a 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:53.440 contract violation, he would blow the whistle and everyone would 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:57.760 just sit down and you'd immediately have a strike right it, 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:00.920 you know, And like that level of miltancy. You don't 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:04.880 need to be at that level to enforce a contract, 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:07.280 but you have to actually be willing to do stuff 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:09.120 and to fight management over it. And if you're not 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:13.520 willing to do that, your contract is effectively meaningless. And 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:16.480 that's a real issue with a lot of unions. 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:19.079 Which just kind of circles back to one of the 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:21.719 big issues that we face is that if we were 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:24.480 to do that, that would be a willingfu delay of mail, 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:29.319 and we could be charged for it just for trying 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:31.000 to enforce the contract. 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:36.440 Yep. Yeah, which the thing I think is really interesting, 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:39.200 just to circle back to the nineteen seventy strike. Is 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:42.920 that so the strike was illegal, right, Nixon brings in 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:45.320 the army, in the National Guard to break it, and 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:49.800 the strike still wins. And not only does it you know, 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:52.040 I mean you could argue whether it achieved total victory, 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:54.360 but not a single person who walked off the line 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:57.800 got arrested, even though all of them technically committed a crime. 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:05.360 And that's something that like, you know, I think, let 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:12.679 me okay, the the enforcements of laws depends on sort 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:15.640 of the the depends on a set of of relative 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:19.280 balance of forces and whether people care about enforce in 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:22.000 the law, which is how like for example, like if 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:25.520 you pirate like seven movies and you get you get 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:28.880 three copyright strike, you go to prison. But you know, 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:33.199 like the sam Alman or whatever like AI company can 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:36.640 literally steal everything on the entire Internet and get money 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:38.360 for it and no one will love to prosecute him, right, 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:43.160 And so so you know, whether or not something is 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:46.440 illegal is to a large extent or or the difference 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.040 between something being illegal and you going to prison for 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:53.000 it largely has to do with the balance of forces involved. 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:56.680 And that's something that you should keep in mind when 0:11:56.800 --> 0:11:58.000 and this is this is the thing, this is the 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:03.560 thing that that cuts the other way too. Employers just 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:06.400 do illegal actions literally all the time, and it doesn't 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:07.920 matter because the state doesn't care. 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.760 Yeah, By and large, labor laws in America are set 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:18.240 up in favor of the businesses of the employers. If 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:22.600 you're familiar with workers comp or any of the systems 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:28.680 involved in the Federal Employees Compensation Act, it's not enforced. 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:34.680 We have cases that are pending arbitration where someone's been 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:39.160 run over by a worker has been run over by 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:44.480 a postal vehicle while they were working. The post office 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:49.160 effectively takes them off of payroll to increase the damage 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:54.680 done to the individual. Eventually, the Department of Labor says, yes, 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:58.040 we will pay this individual, and the post office is 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:01.200 liable to pay them now they are off the rolls, 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:05.200 which means there's a greater period of time before this 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:09.679 individual gets their money. And there's a certain form that 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:12.840 within the post office the managers need to fill out. 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.760 I believe it's an eighty one thirty or you know. 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.680 All these forms have some numbers associated with them that 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:22.000 they just refuse to fill out, and there's no recourse. 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:27.520 There's no cheez, a path for us to take to 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:30.600 make them hurry or make them get this individual the 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:35.280 money that they're owed. And some people this doesn't ruin 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:38.480 their lives and they've already paid off their house or whatever. 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:45.400 But I imagine for many many working Americans that's that's their 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:47.840 livelihood immediately down the drain. 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:52.360 Yeah, unfortunately we need to go to ads for a 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:59.160 little bit because unfortunately, my boss's boss's boss's livelihood depends 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:01.960 on these ads. By technically does too, but like lord knows, 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:03.000 I don't see that money. 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.560 So ads. 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:19.440 We are back. 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:22.400 And yeah, I guess that leads into you the next 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:24.160 place you want to go to, which is talking about 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:29.200 what are the specific grievances today that y'all are dealing 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:31.440 with and the union is not dealing with. 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:37.600 Right So, in terms of grievances within the union and 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:40.400 a negotiation, a lot of it does have to do 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:45.600 with the aforementioned workers' compensation. Employees are just simply not 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:52.120 getting paid. I think the biggest problem with the union 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:55.720 and the grievance procedure today is that management has figured 0:14:55.720 --> 0:15:00.280 out this really effective strategy if they don't settle on 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:03.600 the lower levels, and it gets pushed up to arbitration. 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:10.760 Then we have a massive backlog of cases appending arbitration, 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:15.720 which could be scheduled years out. I think if you 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:19.720 do the math for our current rate of handling these 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:24.760 cases and how many cases we have, it'll take around 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:26.680 fifteen years to get through the long. 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:28.600 Christ not assuming there's no new ones. 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:30.200 Yeah. 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:32.680 Yeah, that's like you know when you go to a 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:35.320 restaurant and there's that little stanchion out there that says 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:38.600 it's a five hour wait from this point. That's the 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:42.960 point that we're at. Anything beyond today will be further 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:51.120 along Jesus Christ. And so I think that is just 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:57.760 a major problem for us clearly. Yeah, management just not 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:01.400 complying with any of the and it makes it so 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:02.920 that our employees have to wait. 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:06.200 Something I do want. 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:08.720 To talk about that's outside of the grievance procedure if 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:11.880 we can, is just what's going on with the post 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:19.040 Office and the Postmaster General. Yeah, all right, So I 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:21.120 want to go at this from the customer perspective first, 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:23.120 because I think that's the best way to relate to people. 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:25.640 I think by and large, people are losing faith in 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:28.760 the Post Office. Either you have no idea what's going on, 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:32.600 or you don't care, and that's fine, I'd say. Before 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:36.280 I joined, I didn't think of them at all. You know, 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:38.360 they're just the guy that shows up at my house 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:41.000 every morning. A lot of people seem to think that 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:44.560 the post Office is going out of business, and our 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:50.440 customers are facing increasingly long lines, misdelivered or lost mail, 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:53.760 and an increase in postage for a service that is 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:58.880 getting worse. People are paying more for worse service, and 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:02.280 it's easy to point out the issues from the outside 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:05.560 and be rightfully upset at them. I do feel like 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:09.560 we're doing a disservice to our our customers, and I'm 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:11.440 not really not trying to attack them when I say 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:16.480 that they're uninformed or clueless to the inner workings of 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:21.120 the Post Office. I do directly want to attack Congress 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:26.280 and say that, yeah, when they post They had pushed 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:30.000 forward a bill called the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.560 in two thousand and six, which required the Post Office 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:36.520 to prefund one hundred percent of its retiree health benefits 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:42.200 and liabilities seventy five years into the future. What so, overnight, 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:46.080 the Post Office was handed a five point five billion 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:50.119 dollar burden, and that's where the whole I don't know 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:53.359 if you remember, I certainly wasn't conscious of it at 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:57.160 the time, to save our post office stickers that were 0:17:57.200 --> 0:17:59.840 being sold and trying to fund the post Office. And 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:03.080 really that's where the rhetoric of the post Office is 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:06.240 going under comes from. The Other thing I want to 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:08.320 point out is that we are a quasi federal We 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:12.280 actually accept nothing from tax payer monies. It says it's 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:14.639 a service, but really the post Office has ran as 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:19.920 a business. We don't even get subsidized because they don't 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:24.280 need to. My local union president loves to remind us 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:26.280 that the post Office is a business that has a 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:30.120 revenue of seventy eight point two billion dollars, and he'll 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:32.400 want me to stress that the point two is extremely 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:36.000 important because point two of a billion is twenty million. 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:40.920 They are not in jeopardy. We are not going out 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:46.960 of business. And the Postmaster General, Louis de Joy, he's 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:51.199 the second highest paid public servant in America, just underneath 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:54.320 the President of the United States. 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:56.160 He's played Ward and Clarence Thomas. 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:56.840 Wow. 0:18:57.400 --> 0:18:59.760 Yeah, I think it was like three hundred and eighty 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.600 two thousand a year or something. Like that the Joy 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:08.160 was appointed by Donald Trump. I'm assuming this is kind 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:11.120 of a baseless assumption, so forgive me. I'm not doing 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:14.560 my research here, but I'm assuming that they're buddies because 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:15.800 d Joy has no idea. 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:18.400 Yeah, wasn't Wasn't she the guy that Trump brought in, 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:21.239 like specifically to destroy the post office as part of 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.560 the campaign to steal the election. 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:28.560 Yeah, so there's been a lot about the Joy defrauding 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:33.119 the election process. I wasn't part of the post office 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:35.720 to see the inner workings of it, so it's kind 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:37.560 of hard for me to say if it was hearsay 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:40.160 or not, but I believe it because the Joy has 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:42.879 no idea how to run a post office. He's never 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:46.240 been involved with this kind of business. He is in 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:50.560 the same way that Trump is a businessman, a horrible businessman, 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:55.520 and his Delivering for America plan could really be redefined 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:59.680 as consolidation efforts for a business. So what they're doing 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:04.440 is their consolidating infrastructure and the workforce, which means closing 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:07.960 post offices in order to save money and shoving three 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:13.240 installations into one building. That's why the lines are getting longer. 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:17.439 It also means that from dispatch, the employees have to 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:21.840 drive an extra mile or two into their working zone, 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:24.960 which of course means that we're going to go into overtime, 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:29.280 and this just throws a wrench in the mail handling process. 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:34.200 He has single handedly made the service a lot more reliable, 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:38.720 and I do think that you're right. Irreliable, yeah, sorry, 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:43.000 more unreliable, And I do think that you're right. He 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:46.520 wants to destroy the post office not only for the election, 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:50.280 but to the point where it makes more sense to 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:53.160 go private. Now is the time to point out that 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:57.240 the joy is a major shareholder in FedEx, which is. 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:01.160 Which is a subcontractor for the. 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:06.760 USPS, and he has millions of dollars in equity involved. 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:07.960 He's got skin in the game. 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:12.400 Love open corruption so great. 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:16.080 And so on the local level, on what's going on 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:19.680 in my office, I actually have one of the better 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:22.919 offices that I've seen or heard about. I have been 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:26.600 sent to other offices and I have experience firsthand the 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:32.440 bullying and harassment from management pushing us to go faster. 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:37.240 But even at one of the better offices, I work 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:41.280 sixty hour weeks. I don't have set days off. It's 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:44.760 not even a rotation. When I get home. I'm spent. 0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:47.840 And my commute isn't that bad. I think I'm about 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:52.080 fifteen minutes each way, and I really can't imagine driving 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:56.000 two hours after an eleven hour shift just to eat 0:21:56.080 --> 0:21:57.800 and come back and do it again. 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:01.680 I mean, that's just unsafe, Like that's see. 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:05.280 Oh yeah, it would be illegal, but since it's in 0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:06.960 the contract, it's not illegal. 0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:08.600 Oh my god. 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:11.439 So the sacrifice that you make when you're joining the 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:15.439 post Office, well, I guess I should explain. When you 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:19.359 join as a letter carrier, the first ninety days, they 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:23.920 can fire you for any reason, and you're something called 0:22:24.000 --> 0:22:27.680 either a CCA or a PTF, and that means part 0:22:27.720 --> 0:22:31.320 time flexible or a city carrier assistant. You are only 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:35.399 guaranteed four hours for showing up for work. You're not 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:38.920 guaranteed to be scheduled. So if they don't like you, 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:43.080 they just will schedule schedule you once a week for 0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:46.119 an unknown amount of time until you quit. And if 0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:48.080 you're in a busy place, then that just means that 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:50.399 they're going to work you to death. So when you 0:22:50.520 --> 0:22:54.600 join the workforce, immediately you lose time with your family. 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:57.119 You lose time with your loved ones and your friends, 0:22:57.720 --> 0:23:01.160 and I myself am so fortunate that all my loved 0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:04.800 ones have been beyond understanding. But every time I talk 0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:09.440 about it, I get asked the same thing, why don't 0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:09.840 you quit? 0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:12.320 Yeah? 0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:16.520 And the truth is, this job is awesome. I love it. 0:23:16.800 --> 0:23:18.560 I want to work it. I just want it to 0:23:18.600 --> 0:23:22.040 make sense and be livable. And I'm not gonna give 0:23:22.160 --> 0:23:26.760 up just because we haven't reached the point where it is. 0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:29.320 You know, if you walk away now, it doesn't get better. 0:23:29.400 --> 0:23:33.200 I'm sure someone would take my place. But it helps 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:34.719 to have people stick around. 0:23:45.160 --> 0:23:46.919 That's actually a pretty comedy. I mean, this is one 0:23:46.960 --> 0:23:50.400 of the Amazon strategy right through from their warehouses. They 0:23:50.560 --> 0:23:53.639 intentionally want to cycle through people because the more the 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:56.400 more new people you have continuously cycling through, the less 0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:59.439 organized and the less sort of like must knowledge, they 0:23:59.440 --> 0:24:01.200 have less you have to pay them, et cetera, et cetera, 0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:04.800 et cetera. And so if you can just cause high 0:24:04.840 --> 0:24:08.320 turnover rates on purpose, that's the thing that a lot 0:24:08.320 --> 0:24:12.840 of these sort of business gohoule like Nightmare or factory 0:24:12.960 --> 0:24:18.520 people love in their workforces and makes everyone else's life 0:24:18.680 --> 0:24:22.280 just a living hell. But you know they're getting They're 0:24:22.280 --> 0:24:23.280 still getting paid. 0:24:25.280 --> 0:24:28.439 Right, and so I try and hold that in mind. 0:24:28.640 --> 0:24:31.560 When I've been overworked and I'm at the end of 0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:35.240 one of my major shifts because I had to carry 0:24:35.280 --> 0:24:39.120 part of another route because someone else called out, I 0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:41.919 really have to stop and think to myself that this 0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:46.160 other person who called out is just as exhausted as 0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:50.320 I am is probably going to get a letter of 0:24:50.359 --> 0:24:51.680 warning for calling out. 0:24:51.680 --> 0:24:54.560 That's another issue. They don't want you to use your leave. 0:24:55.359 --> 0:24:56.240 Jesus Christ. 0:24:56.880 --> 0:24:59.480 I'm going to file an unfair labor practice because they've 0:24:59.480 --> 0:25:02.679 been doing that a lot at my office as well. 0:25:03.400 --> 0:25:04.240 It reminds me a. 0:25:04.200 --> 0:25:08.119 Lot are issues of your recent episode. I think it 0:25:08.200 --> 0:25:12.360 was you about the nurses Union, the shift change episode. 0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:15.920 Their members are dealing with a lot of the same things, 0:25:15.960 --> 0:25:20.800 where the unions are so big that they become detached 0:25:20.840 --> 0:25:25.439 from the membership and we are finding out afterwards what 0:25:25.600 --> 0:25:31.160 our bargaining agreements are, what our strategy was. Everything's after 0:25:31.720 --> 0:25:35.240 the contract has been signed, and that's just not how 0:25:35.400 --> 0:25:38.240 unions were meant to be. They're meant to be from 0:25:38.280 --> 0:25:41.400 the bottom up, by the workers, for the workers. But 0:25:41.600 --> 0:25:45.679 it really does feel like it's like National is its 0:25:45.720 --> 0:25:48.959 own entity, and so I guess that would bring us 0:25:48.960 --> 0:25:53.119 to talking about the union and the future of the union. 0:25:53.800 --> 0:25:54.800 Yeah, let's get into that. 0:25:55.680 --> 0:25:59.480 So I got to be careful here because Brian Renfro, 0:26:00.040 --> 0:26:03.200 he's our national leader of the union. He's been struggling 0:26:03.200 --> 0:26:05.680 with problems in his personal life, and I don't feel 0:26:05.680 --> 0:26:09.760 like I'm outsteeing him as its public knowledge, at least 0:26:09.800 --> 0:26:10.680 within the Post office. 0:26:10.720 --> 0:26:11.760 It's public knowledge. 0:26:11.800 --> 0:26:17.359 He's dealing with substance abuse, with alcoholism, and that's something 0:26:17.359 --> 0:26:21.439 that hits very close to home within my family, and 0:26:21.480 --> 0:26:25.919 I really don't want to demonize that he's struggling. But 0:26:26.000 --> 0:26:28.040 what I do want to say is when you're going 0:26:28.160 --> 0:26:31.560 through something like that and you've accepted a position on 0:26:31.600 --> 0:26:34.680 the national level like this, you really need to either 0:26:34.720 --> 0:26:39.639 step down or appoint someone to handle things in your place. 0:26:40.600 --> 0:26:46.399 As negotiations started over a year ago, he kind of 0:26:46.440 --> 0:26:51.320 went missing and it was later revealed that he was inpatient, 0:26:52.240 --> 0:26:56.200 which is fine, get your help, but there was nothing left, 0:26:56.800 --> 0:27:01.800 no notes left for us to strategize with, and our 0:27:01.840 --> 0:27:06.199 membership is just in the dark. And beyond that, the 0:27:06.400 --> 0:27:10.760 leadership has gone missing. It's it's very dark times for 0:27:11.119 --> 0:27:12.240 the NAOC. 0:27:13.440 --> 0:27:15.480 Well, and that that's also just sort of like an 0:27:15.600 --> 0:27:19.639 organizational problem, right like if if you're if your organization 0:27:19.720 --> 0:27:22.399 is set up in such a way that a small 0:27:22.480 --> 0:27:26.919 number of people being incapacitated means total paralysis and no 0:27:26.960 --> 0:27:29.119 one has any idea what's going on. That's just a 0:27:29.240 --> 0:27:33.320 bad way to run something. And especially it's a terrible 0:27:33.320 --> 0:27:35.919 way to run a union because the union's you know, 0:27:36.119 --> 0:27:40.520 power is supposed to be from from its organization and 0:27:40.600 --> 0:27:43.760 from the collective power of a large, large, organized group 0:27:43.760 --> 0:27:45.719 of people who can make decisions for themselves. And if 0:27:45.760 --> 0:27:48.119 it's if that's not happening and you get to the 0:27:48.119 --> 0:27:50.760 point where these decisions are being made by a very 0:27:50.760 --> 0:27:53.240 small number of people who can just sort of vanish, 0:27:53.400 --> 0:27:56.560 like that's that for whatever, And you know, literally whatever 0:27:56.600 --> 0:27:58.400 reason that is, right, it could just be you get sick. 0:27:58.440 --> 0:28:01.800 It could just be like whatever happens. That's just a 0:28:01.880 --> 0:28:05.320 terrible way to organize things. And I guess it's also 0:28:05.359 --> 0:28:06.639 like I want to make take it like like like 0:28:06.640 --> 0:28:08.800 a little tiny tangent to be like, if you're doing 0:28:08.840 --> 0:28:12.239 any organizing project, your goal is to organize yourself out 0:28:12.280 --> 0:28:15.920 of a job, Like you're like ideally, if you were 0:28:16.000 --> 0:28:18.359 in an organization, it should be able to function without you. 0:28:18.400 --> 0:28:22.440 There should Not having an indispensable person is a fiasco. 0:28:22.640 --> 0:28:23.280 Don't do that. 0:28:23.520 --> 0:28:26.760 This is true of both like your tiny local mutual 0:28:26.800 --> 0:28:29.119 aid group, as much as is true of your giant 0:28:29.160 --> 0:28:31.720 national union. So that this this has been this has 0:28:31.760 --> 0:28:35.200 been mea talking about the indispensable person don't have. 0:28:36.640 --> 0:28:39.680 Well, yeah, that's kind of the funny thing about joining 0:28:39.680 --> 0:28:44.200 a union from an anarchist perspective. It gets a little 0:28:44.200 --> 0:28:48.560 funky how hierarchical they typically are, and the problems that 0:28:48.600 --> 0:28:50.920 we know we are going to face when you have 0:28:50.960 --> 0:28:53.800 a system that's built like a pyramid. 0:28:54.520 --> 0:28:57.000 Yeah, oh yeah. 0:28:57.160 --> 0:29:00.520 And so I was saying, we're in dark time, but 0:29:00.560 --> 0:29:04.280 there's such a bright future that I can see for 0:29:04.400 --> 0:29:09.000 us Branch nine of the NALC, and namely this individual 0:29:09.080 --> 0:29:13.479 Tyler Vasser, who when I had originally posted on Reddit 0:29:14.120 --> 0:29:19.920 asking for attention, he's the one that I thought would 0:29:20.000 --> 0:29:24.760 be great for this interview. His branch, Branch nine has 0:29:24.920 --> 0:29:28.560 passed a resolution to form an open bargaining strategy for 0:29:28.760 --> 0:29:33.400 contract negotiations, and I hope this sweeps the nation. We're 0:29:33.400 --> 0:29:37.280 not allowed to strike, as I've mentioned, and our leadership 0:29:37.400 --> 0:29:41.360 is so shy when it when it comes to activism 0:29:42.120 --> 0:29:45.760 or mobilization of the workforce, they don't want to touch 0:29:45.800 --> 0:29:48.440 the topic. The closest thing we have to it is 0:29:48.720 --> 0:29:54.120 a rally that is enough is Enough that's being held 0:29:54.120 --> 0:29:58.120 in Baltimore soon about the violence that's being done to 0:30:00.000 --> 0:30:03.200 postal workers. We're being robbed and we're being harassed, But 0:30:03.280 --> 0:30:07.000 even then we're missing a large chunk of the danger 0:30:07.520 --> 0:30:10.280 that is posed to postal workers, because yes, we're being 0:30:10.320 --> 0:30:12.680 robbed on the streets, but we're also being bullied and 0:30:12.720 --> 0:30:18.720 harassed inside of our work places by management, by the 0:30:18.760 --> 0:30:22.160 people who are supposed to empower us to do the 0:30:22.240 --> 0:30:23.120 job effectively. 0:30:25.240 --> 0:30:30.120 And so they don't want to touch the topic of 0:30:30.160 --> 0:30:33.760 a strike, I think, for fear of retaliation. But to me, 0:30:34.600 --> 0:30:38.280 pushing for the right to strike is a I'm not 0:30:38.320 --> 0:30:41.200 sure how to word this. It is such. 0:30:41.000 --> 0:30:47.480 An important part of the nilc's identity, the postal strike 0:30:47.520 --> 0:30:51.360 of nineteen seventy, that it seems silly to ignore it 0:30:51.440 --> 0:30:56.960 today and pretend like it didn't happen. So for the future, 0:30:57.720 --> 0:31:01.680 I think that activism is our key to success. I 0:31:01.720 --> 0:31:04.240 think that the old heads that lead our union come 0:31:04.280 --> 0:31:07.840 from a time where unions were frowned upon where activism 0:31:07.920 --> 0:31:12.760 was frowned upon. But I think that public opinion will 0:31:13.080 --> 0:31:17.120 be largely in our favor, and that public opinion can 0:31:17.440 --> 0:31:21.960 really put pressure on the legislative branch on Congress, and 0:31:23.320 --> 0:31:27.560 if we are transparent about our union, what we're asking for, 0:31:27.640 --> 0:31:31.080 the issues that we're facing, I think that the public 0:31:31.080 --> 0:31:35.680 would be on our side. If the people in America 0:31:35.760 --> 0:31:39.680 knew that management was falsifying time records or training records 0:31:40.080 --> 0:31:44.600 and interfering with workers' comps, claim and back pay, or 0:31:44.840 --> 0:31:48.840 that they're not paying the settlements that they've agreed to pay, 0:31:49.560 --> 0:31:54.720 that they're not scheduling arbitration sessions big or small, that 0:31:56.200 --> 0:31:58.080 they would care, and that they would join us in 0:31:58.120 --> 0:32:03.160 the streets. One major thing that happened, I think it 0:32:03.200 --> 0:32:07.160 was last year in the summer, we had a letter carrier, 0:32:07.240 --> 0:32:11.120 his name is Eugene Gates, who died in the Texas 0:32:11.160 --> 0:32:15.920 heat Jesus year because management told him not to take 0:32:16.280 --> 0:32:21.160 as many breaks or he would face discipline. These pressures 0:32:21.160 --> 0:32:26.520 that we face when when you're threatened that you will 0:32:26.520 --> 0:32:29.920 lose your job if you don't listen to us, you 0:32:29.960 --> 0:32:34.000 will push yourself to the point of exhaustion and further, Yeah, 0:32:36.680 --> 0:32:41.240 I think that the Post Office killed mister Gates and 0:32:42.720 --> 0:32:44.880 there wasn't as much outcry or. 0:32:46.400 --> 0:32:48.720 Or anger behind the movement. 0:32:48.920 --> 0:32:53.239 I often find myself thinking that while I don't have 0:32:53.280 --> 0:32:58.320 the answers, I do know that we need to care more. Yeah, 0:32:59.120 --> 0:33:02.120 and it's hard to care when you're exhausted. I acknowledge that. 0:33:03.320 --> 0:33:03.560 Yeah. 0:33:03.640 --> 0:33:06.800 Well, I think there's two things about that. One, I mean, 0:33:06.840 --> 0:33:09.880 I don't and this is something I've gotten to with 0:33:10.040 --> 0:33:11.760 a lot of the sort of interviews that I've done 0:33:11.840 --> 0:33:16.440 on this show, is that I think a lot of 0:33:16.680 --> 0:33:21.200 very very basic jobs have labor conditions that are unimaginably 0:33:21.240 --> 0:33:25.040 appalling that people just don't know about. And I think 0:33:25.040 --> 0:33:27.760 people are very sympathetic too, once they actually understand what's 0:33:27.760 --> 0:33:30.200 happening in the kind of just horror show stuff that's 0:33:30.240 --> 0:33:33.600 happening in these workplaces. And the second thing I think 0:33:33.600 --> 0:33:37.120 that's sort of important in terms of getting people to 0:33:37.880 --> 0:33:42.160 you know, trying to actually do like mass mobilizations even 0:33:42.240 --> 0:33:44.200 just to get people to understand what's going on, is 0:33:44.200 --> 0:33:46.200 that I think a lot of people who are facing 0:33:46.200 --> 0:33:48.960 these kinds of conditions think that they're alone and think 0:33:48.960 --> 0:33:52.080 that it's just something that happens to them, or they've 0:33:52.120 --> 0:33:53.840 been in them for so long they think that it's 0:33:53.840 --> 0:33:58.280 sort of normal. And having a bunch of people go no, 0:33:58.840 --> 0:34:02.680 like a this happens and be it shouldn't happen is 0:34:03.200 --> 0:34:07.320 extraordinarily powerful because you know, like that that feeling of 0:34:07.320 --> 0:34:11.239 isolation is is the thing that all of that you know, 0:34:11.280 --> 0:34:14.759 you're that your bosses depend on to make sure that 0:34:15.280 --> 0:34:17.239 you know you you just keep going along with these 0:34:17.239 --> 0:34:21.040 conditions even though they are just objectively horrific. And I 0:34:21.080 --> 0:34:25.480 think any strategy that's not based on that is just 0:34:25.520 --> 0:34:27.120 not going to go anywhere. 0:34:27.760 --> 0:34:30.680 Right, And one of the strategies that I really want 0:34:30.719 --> 0:34:34.759 to push forward as I grow within the union. And 0:34:34.800 --> 0:34:36.600 don't get me wrong, I want to stay as steward. 0:34:36.680 --> 0:34:40.719 I think that educating our members and uh being part 0:34:40.760 --> 0:34:44.520 of the workforce is my place in the union. But 0:34:45.120 --> 0:34:48.520 what I want to push is for union solidarity. I 0:34:48.520 --> 0:34:55.160 want the NLC to hire organizers, specifically organizers to try 0:34:55.200 --> 0:34:59.799 and get the public mobilized and as well as the workforce, 0:35:00.400 --> 0:35:03.000 so that we can put pressure on Congress, so that 0:35:03.040 --> 0:35:06.560 we can show our bargaining teams that we support them, 0:35:06.920 --> 0:35:10.440 and so that we can have clearly defined bargaining terms. 0:35:11.239 --> 0:35:16.239 And yeah, I think that having solidarity between unions and 0:35:16.280 --> 0:35:21.680 reaching out to the other movements in a time where 0:35:22.280 --> 0:35:25.919 union support is higher than ever is such a clear 0:35:26.120 --> 0:35:30.800 path that we are just ignoring for whatever reason because 0:35:30.800 --> 0:35:35.040 people are afraid to speak out against the Post Office. 0:35:35.200 --> 0:35:37.680 And so I'm really not sure what's going to happen 0:35:37.920 --> 0:35:40.640 with our current contract, but I do know that the 0:35:40.680 --> 0:35:44.040 fight never ends, and that while we stand on the 0:35:44.040 --> 0:35:47.359 shoulders of giants, we have to pay respect to these 0:35:47.400 --> 0:35:51.560 giants by not giving up now. And I'm a relatively 0:35:51.600 --> 0:35:55.719 new employee and steward, but I'm really walking in the 0:35:55.760 --> 0:36:01.399 footsteps of some warriors. The branch president I mentioned, Ken 0:36:01.480 --> 0:36:05.040 Lurch has given me so much support and education and 0:36:05.480 --> 0:36:08.480 has done so much hard work over the years that 0:36:08.560 --> 0:36:10.880 I don't have to reinvent the wheel, none of us do. 0:36:11.840 --> 0:36:13.560 We just have to continue the struggle. 0:36:15.960 --> 0:36:18.240 Yeah, and I think I think that's a great place 0:36:18.280 --> 0:36:20.279 to end you unless you have anything else that you 0:36:20.320 --> 0:36:21.279 want to make sure we get to. 0:36:23.520 --> 0:36:25.960 No, nothing, nothing on this topic. 0:36:26.800 --> 0:36:29.799 Yeah, So how can how can people support you and 0:36:29.880 --> 0:36:32.880 postal workers just in general? If there's specific place you 0:36:32.880 --> 0:36:33.440 want them to go? 0:36:35.239 --> 0:36:35.840 In general? 0:36:35.960 --> 0:36:40.840 There is on the na LC site, which is just 0:36:40.960 --> 0:36:44.279 an ALC dot com. There is a section where you 0:36:44.320 --> 0:36:48.400 put in your address and it it'll give you the 0:36:48.920 --> 0:36:54.640 email addresses, the phone numbers for your representatives so that 0:36:54.680 --> 0:36:59.719 you can make some noise. Again, we're amazingly limited in 0:36:59.800 --> 0:37:01.799 what we can do, so there's not really anything that 0:37:01.840 --> 0:37:07.719 you can donate to to help us, including the letter 0:37:07.760 --> 0:37:08.839 carrier political fund. 0:37:09.520 --> 0:37:11.759 But yeah, just pay attention to us. 0:37:12.560 --> 0:37:15.120 Maybe leave a bottle of water out in your front door, 0:37:15.360 --> 0:37:20.520 says for the postal worker. You know, there's nothing better 0:37:20.600 --> 0:37:22.920 that you can do than talking about it. Word of 0:37:22.960 --> 0:37:24.680 mouth is the best advertisement. 0:37:25.880 --> 0:37:27.440 Well, yeah, we will, we will. We will put that 0:37:27.480 --> 0:37:29.960 in the show notes. I help you all win, and 0:37:30.239 --> 0:37:32.280 I don't. I don't think I've ever said this genuinely 0:37:32.400 --> 0:37:34.080 in my life, but thank you for your service. 0:37:36.080 --> 0:37:37.320 I appreciate that. Yeah. 0:37:37.400 --> 0:37:42.080 I never imagined myself to become a federal employee, and 0:37:42.320 --> 0:37:47.359 it is just as bad as I imagined. Yeah, so 0:37:47.640 --> 0:37:50.320 I do want to shout out Actually it's a little meta, 0:37:50.360 --> 0:37:53.399 I guess, but I do want to shout out some 0:37:54.320 --> 0:37:57.480 important episodes of it could happen here that. 0:37:58.200 --> 0:37:59.799 Hit me very closely. If I can. 0:38:00.320 --> 0:38:03.440 Yeah, yeah, go for it because a lot of the 0:38:03.440 --> 0:38:06.840 people listening will be postal workers that have been pointed 0:38:06.880 --> 0:38:12.480 in this direction. Please look at the May and Mar episodes, 0:38:13.120 --> 0:38:17.200 the Free burm the Burmese Revolution, and look at the 0:38:17.239 --> 0:38:20.640 work that me I believe you've done the same work 0:38:20.680 --> 0:38:22.840 as James with border kindness. 0:38:23.239 --> 0:38:26.000 Those are two topics that. 0:38:25.920 --> 0:38:29.880 I think y'all hit really well and that really touched 0:38:30.040 --> 0:38:33.880 me as a person. Sometimes I'll relisten to those episodes 0:38:33.920 --> 0:38:36.440 when I'm having a hard day just to remind myself 0:38:36.480 --> 0:38:40.279 that it's all the same. It's all the same fight. 0:38:42.719 --> 0:38:44.600 Yeah, it absolutely is, And I mean I think that's 0:38:44.640 --> 0:38:46.879 that's sort of the beauty. I mean, it's it's both 0:38:46.880 --> 0:38:50.640 the beauty and the horror of this world is that 0:38:50.719 --> 0:38:53.760 on the one hand, all of us are being crushed 0:38:53.800 --> 0:38:55.759 by the same sets of forces. But on the other hand, 0:38:55.960 --> 0:38:58.600 it means that whatever fight that you're taking is also 0:38:59.160 --> 0:39:01.239 a part of the larger fight forget all. 0:39:01.120 --> 0:39:01.640 Of us free. 0:39:03.440 --> 0:39:06.880 Yeah exactly, So just fight the burnout and stay in 0:39:06.880 --> 0:39:07.239 the fight. 0:39:07.960 --> 0:39:08.200 Yep. 0:39:10.040 --> 0:39:13.200 Yeah, this is pennicket Apple. Here go make trouble for 0:39:13.239 --> 0:39:13.919 people who suck. 0:39:27.920 --> 0:39:28.040 Hi. 0:39:28.120 --> 0:39:30.160 Everyone, it's James. We just wanted to let you know 0:39:30.200 --> 0:39:32.960 that some new shit has come to light since since 0:39:32.960 --> 0:39:36.759 we recorded this. Specifically, a former staff of was A 0:39:36.800 --> 0:39:39.800 Your Kitchen who resigned who was of Palestinian descent wrote 0:39:39.840 --> 0:39:43.719 an op ed I guess in Mundweiss, which is a 0:39:43.719 --> 0:39:47.120 publication that covers is rather Palestine and the United States 0:39:47.239 --> 0:39:50.839 role there, and it's given us some more information about 0:39:50.840 --> 0:39:52.400 what's the tr kitchen that we didn't know when we 0:39:52.400 --> 0:39:54.600 first recorded this, and so we are going to address 0:39:54.600 --> 0:39:57.040 out at the end. So after the second ad break, 0:39:57.760 --> 0:39:59.799 Charles will go Sherean and I will come back and 0:39:59.840 --> 0:40:02.600 we gonna address some stuff that we found in that 0:40:02.600 --> 0:40:04.480 op ed. We will also link it in the description 0:40:04.560 --> 0:40:05.320 to this podcast. 0:40:05.880 --> 0:40:09.080 Yes, it's a really good article. I recommend you guys 0:40:09.120 --> 0:40:11.160 give it a full read. But yeah, we will be 0:40:11.280 --> 0:40:13.279 talking all about it at the end, so please listen 0:40:13.320 --> 0:40:17.919 to the whole episode. Hello, everybody, welcome to it could 0:40:17.960 --> 0:40:22.160 happen here today. I am joined by my illustrious colleague. 0:40:21.760 --> 0:40:24.040 James Hi James, Hi Scheren. 0:40:24.320 --> 0:40:28.080 And my now friend Charles McBride. Hi, Charles, welcome back 0:40:28.120 --> 0:40:28.560 to the show. 0:40:29.520 --> 0:40:30.480 Hi, no friends, Sharen. 0:40:30.560 --> 0:40:32.719 It's wonderful to be here and to know that you're 0:40:32.719 --> 0:40:35.160 a real person, not a yeah. 0:40:35.320 --> 0:40:35.920 Fun fact. 0:40:35.960 --> 0:40:37.719 I have met Charles in person, but I have not 0:40:37.800 --> 0:40:39.960 met James in person, and I think that's pretty funny. 0:40:40.520 --> 0:40:42.840 That's why I got colleague and Charles ki friends. 0:40:44.680 --> 0:40:47.839 Tech that don't read into that. 0:40:47.960 --> 0:40:49.279 Okay, we have. 0:40:50.040 --> 0:40:53.880 We're talking about World Central Kitchen and the tragedy that 0:40:53.920 --> 0:40:56.839 happened last week in which seven AID workers were killed. 0:40:57.160 --> 0:41:01.120 Both of these gentlemen have personal experience with the organization, 0:41:01.200 --> 0:41:02.480 so I thought it would be good to talk about. 0:41:02.520 --> 0:41:04.120 But James take it. 0:41:04.120 --> 0:41:07.640 Away, Okay, So yeah, I think I think we should 0:41:07.640 --> 0:41:09.560 maybe start off Charles, you and I've both seen World 0:41:09.640 --> 0:41:13.560 Central Kitchen in different places. Like my longest experience with 0:41:13.640 --> 0:41:17.680 them was starting in twenty eighteen in Tijuana, right when 0:41:18.480 --> 0:41:20.920 we were trying to feed people who were part of 0:41:20.960 --> 0:41:24.360 a caravan of migrants who had arrived right before the midterms, 0:41:25.239 --> 0:41:27.439 and what was a relatively normal thing became a really 0:41:27.480 --> 0:41:32.560 big political sort of football, which resulted in the people, 0:41:32.600 --> 0:41:36.360 remember like people being tear gassed in Mexico from inside 0:41:36.360 --> 0:41:39.520 the United States, people being held first in a baseball 0:41:39.520 --> 0:41:42.279 stadium and then in an old strip club, which was 0:41:42.320 --> 0:41:47.840 really gross. And they're being essentially no and goo presence 0:41:47.840 --> 0:41:50.960 at first and then Mutual Aid Presence and then World 0:41:51.040 --> 0:41:52.960 Central Kitchen were one of the first people to show 0:41:53.040 --> 0:41:56.360 up and cook for people, and like, at this point, 0:41:56.400 --> 0:41:58.680 there was a really dying of need for food. Like 0:41:58.719 --> 0:42:01.520 I have this vivid memory of three of my friends 0:42:01.560 --> 0:42:03.080 and I are riding in a bed of a pickup 0:42:03.080 --> 0:42:07.239 truck into this refugee camp and people just mobbing for 0:42:07.320 --> 0:42:10.960 food and water, and like people would get about, like 0:42:11.000 --> 0:42:13.279 not stamping on children once once we stopped, but like 0:42:13.320 --> 0:42:14.839 I was really worried there was going to be a crash. 0:42:14.880 --> 0:42:17.520 People were very hungry and very thirsty, and I had 0:42:17.560 --> 0:42:19.839 just had massive respect for people showing up and just 0:42:19.880 --> 0:42:22.840 being like, we are people who cook food, and what 0:42:22.840 --> 0:42:24.279 we're here to do is cook food and these people 0:42:24.280 --> 0:42:25.799 are hungry who were going to give it to them? 0:42:26.040 --> 0:42:31.399 And so I've always been admiring of their work since then. 0:42:31.719 --> 0:42:34.360 And I went to Childs, like what your sort of 0:42:34.400 --> 0:42:38.200 initial experience was with them, and if you could describe 0:42:38.280 --> 0:42:43.359 like sort of what sort of work you've seen them doing. Yeah, So. 0:42:44.840 --> 0:42:49.520 First experience that I had with World Central Kitchen was 0:42:49.560 --> 0:42:51.719 actually hands off. It was when my friends and I 0:42:51.840 --> 0:42:53.839 we created this thing four years ago called the Farm 0:42:54.120 --> 0:43:00.720 Project which is a food rescue organization. It basically finds 0:43:00.840 --> 0:43:04.360 food that's going to waste on farms and pays the 0:43:04.400 --> 0:43:06.920 wages of the truckers and the drivers to transport the 0:43:06.920 --> 0:43:11.279 food to food banks that are overworked. We sort of 0:43:11.360 --> 0:43:15.440 tagged in with World Central Kitchen in the beginning of 0:43:15.520 --> 0:43:18.600 COVID and talked with them a little bit, but there 0:43:18.640 --> 0:43:21.040 was never any official partnership. Some of their comms people 0:43:21.080 --> 0:43:23.440 gave us advice, some of their fundraising people gave us advice. 0:43:24.040 --> 0:43:26.680 First time I ever saw them in operation was coming 0:43:26.800 --> 0:43:30.279 into the Jimish train station week two of the Ukraine War, 0:43:31.160 --> 0:43:36.520 and they were the organization feeding all the refugees coming 0:43:36.520 --> 0:43:39.040 in a bunch of people in World Central Kitchen, and 0:43:40.600 --> 0:43:42.760 the thing I noticed was none of them were speaking English. 0:43:43.160 --> 0:43:46.680 They were all speaking Polish and Ukrainian or Russian. And 0:43:47.560 --> 0:43:52.319 I started to realize, this is an organization that knows 0:43:52.320 --> 0:43:55.719 how to mobilize a local population and a local response 0:43:55.880 --> 0:44:00.120 as a part of the thing. And that's something I 0:44:00.160 --> 0:44:04.200 really noticed when almost a year later, I flew from 0:44:04.239 --> 0:44:07.200 Ukraine to Turkey when a seven point five Magetude earthquake 0:44:07.719 --> 0:44:14.799 went through southeastern Turkey, Kardistan and I flew into Adanna 0:44:14.840 --> 0:44:18.120 and then basically linked up with the World's Central Kitchen 0:44:18.160 --> 0:44:22.440 people in the city of Osmania. And one of the 0:44:22.480 --> 0:44:26.319 things I noticed was how quickly they were able to 0:44:26.360 --> 0:44:30.200 get into Syria when nobody else was getting into Syria. 0:44:30.880 --> 0:44:34.759 And the reason is because it's just chefs. It's just 0:44:35.000 --> 0:44:38.560 using chefs in restaurants in places where they already exist. 0:44:38.719 --> 0:44:41.680 Every place in the world has chefs and restaurants. And 0:44:42.400 --> 0:44:46.000 Jose Andres has this amazing quote that I really like. 0:44:46.080 --> 0:44:49.200 He says, everyone already works for World Central Kitchen, they 0:44:49.239 --> 0:44:52.799 just don't know it yet. And I saw that in action. 0:44:52.880 --> 0:44:56.800 I saw all these kitchens transformed into you know, shelters 0:44:56.840 --> 0:45:01.120 and food distribution sites, and I got to work alongside 0:45:01.120 --> 0:45:03.480 their team. So my project, I was trying to fundraise 0:45:03.600 --> 0:45:08.120 for heaters and blankets to heat the AFAD tents in 0:45:08.160 --> 0:45:12.120 the affected regions in Kurdistan and in the Kurdish villages 0:45:12.160 --> 0:45:14.120 on the on the border with Syria, because there was 0:45:14.160 --> 0:45:16.799 it was still very cold at that time and there 0:45:16.840 --> 0:45:20.160 was not you know, adequate attention paid to that. Obviously, 0:45:20.160 --> 0:45:22.640 AFAD and its cronies is part of the whole reason 0:45:22.680 --> 0:45:25.200 that that incident was as bad as it was, but 0:45:25.239 --> 0:45:27.840 World Central Kitchen stepped up in a big way in Turkey, 0:45:28.600 --> 0:45:30.840 and I was really impressed with kind of their outfit. 0:45:31.160 --> 0:45:33.920 We were working out of the same distribution center, you know. 0:45:34.160 --> 0:45:36.360 I got to a company, Jose Andres on a couple 0:45:36.400 --> 0:45:38.920 of his deliveries, and we went in to Hate and 0:45:39.760 --> 0:45:43.040 walked around and saw the extent of the devastation and 0:45:43.200 --> 0:45:45.799 visited all the World Central Kitchen feeding sites, and it 0:45:45.880 --> 0:45:49.280 was just it was all Turkish people and Gurtish people 0:45:49.480 --> 0:45:52.000 who were there working from World Central Kitchen. They had 0:45:52.000 --> 0:45:55.560 been mobilized by this entity. So there's this decentralized element 0:45:55.600 --> 0:45:57.759 to World Central Kitchen that I found really impressive. It 0:45:58.120 --> 0:46:01.680 didn't feel like the top down, bureaucratic thing I kept 0:46:01.719 --> 0:46:05.080 throwing into in my humanitarian work with these big NGOs. 0:46:05.480 --> 0:46:08.360 It was much more grassroots, much more bottom up. So 0:46:08.400 --> 0:46:10.600 it gained a lot of respect for me in that sense. 0:46:11.320 --> 0:46:13.640 Yeah, I think that's a really good point to make 0:46:13.680 --> 0:46:15.680 that they do have a different model. It allows them 0:46:15.719 --> 0:46:18.399 to be flexible. It's allowed them to be places where 0:46:18.440 --> 0:46:21.000 other people aren't like. I think a lot of people, 0:46:21.040 --> 0:46:24.880 perhaps like are not as familiar with the NGO world 0:46:25.280 --> 0:46:28.520 as you and I might be like, like, NGOs often 0:46:28.880 --> 0:46:31.840 present themselves in places where people need help, but it's like, 0:46:32.440 --> 0:46:34.720 you know, they have large office buildings and white land cruises, 0:46:35.200 --> 0:46:37.640 and they have one way of doing things and it's 0:46:37.680 --> 0:46:40.359 their way, and sometimes that doesn't work well. I can 0:46:40.800 --> 0:46:44.239 recount countless examples of this, right, NGOs that exist to 0:46:44.280 --> 0:46:46.319 do things in a certain way and don't adapt to 0:46:46.360 --> 0:46:51.240 a local situation or culture. And that's something the World's 0:46:51.239 --> 0:46:54.160 Central Kitchen have done really well in my experience, all 0:46:54.160 --> 0:46:54.720 over the world. 0:46:55.480 --> 0:46:58.560 Yeah, they graft themselves on to a local response and 0:46:58.600 --> 0:47:01.000 every everywhere that they go, it takes on the local flavor. 0:47:01.239 --> 0:47:04.400 And I think it's that's why this happened, is because 0:47:05.360 --> 0:47:09.960 they inserted themselves into a highly volatile situation and because 0:47:09.960 --> 0:47:12.279 they are so decentralized, and because they are so on 0:47:12.320 --> 0:47:16.640 the ground, they also exposed themselves to the realities of 0:47:16.680 --> 0:47:20.920 what Palestinians have been facing in Gaza and lost members 0:47:20.960 --> 0:47:24.080 of their team, you know as a result. And I 0:47:24.120 --> 0:47:26.279 think that is part of that is there's a lot 0:47:26.280 --> 0:47:30.040 of people who won't even go into Gaza, you know, 0:47:30.120 --> 0:47:33.160 if they had the opportunity, like you said, these big NGOs, 0:47:33.200 --> 0:47:35.320 I think last time I was on the on the 0:47:35.320 --> 0:47:38.480 podcast Sharen, I talked about, you know, seeing these big 0:47:38.560 --> 0:47:42.360 UN advertisements in the Copenhagen airport saying save Ukrainian children 0:47:42.440 --> 0:47:45.120 when I first when I was going over there, and 0:47:45.160 --> 0:47:47.319 then as soon as I got there, I mean, the 0:47:47.400 --> 0:47:49.320 minute you go east to Leviv, You're not going to 0:47:49.360 --> 0:47:52.040 see a UN truck anywhere. And it was it was 0:47:52.120 --> 0:47:54.960 that way for nine months, you know. In Yeah, it 0:47:55.000 --> 0:47:56.759 was just a bunch of people with like brand new 0:47:56.840 --> 0:48:01.040 white Land Cruise or Pratos, sipping cocktails and Leviv while 0:48:01.960 --> 0:48:06.520 subcontracting with actual humanitarians working closer to the front line. 0:48:07.080 --> 0:48:09.640 World Central Kitchen was not that way. They were all 0:48:09.680 --> 0:48:11.720 the way out, all the way on the east. Everywhere 0:48:11.719 --> 0:48:14.359 I went there was World Central Kitchen cars, even deep 0:48:14.440 --> 0:48:18.719 into Donyetsk, And that was really impressive. It was so 0:48:18.840 --> 0:48:23.880 it felt antithetical to the whole nonprofit industrial complex model 0:48:23.920 --> 0:48:27.560 that I'd become familiar with, and I was impressed by that. 0:48:28.560 --> 0:48:31.319 Yeah, So perhaps we should to speak about exactly what 0:48:32.080 --> 0:48:34.520 they were doing in Ghaz because I think people are 0:48:34.520 --> 0:48:36.759 practical a little confused. There's been a lot of like 0:48:37.800 --> 0:48:40.680 misinformation from all kinds of angles about what they were 0:48:40.680 --> 0:48:42.560 doing in Gaza, So do you have a good handle 0:48:42.600 --> 0:48:42.799 on that. 0:48:43.920 --> 0:48:49.520 I mean, World Central Kitchen positioned itself. They engage in 0:48:49.600 --> 0:48:55.040 slightly more activist humanitarianism than most organizations, which is why 0:48:55.200 --> 0:48:59.479 I mean jose Andres went big on Ukraine. He was there, 0:48:59.560 --> 0:49:01.279 he brought the whole team. I mean, they put they 0:49:01.280 --> 0:49:05.040 dedicated so many resources to Ukraine, and for him it 0:49:05.120 --> 0:49:08.719 was unequivocal. Ukrainians are the good guys, Russians are the 0:49:08.719 --> 0:49:12.520 bad guys. We're helping the victims of this conflict, and 0:49:13.160 --> 0:49:16.319 you know, we're on the side of the angels in 0:49:16.360 --> 0:49:19.319 this and that was the positioning, and I think it 0:49:19.360 --> 0:49:21.439 was a bit of a wake up call when after 0:49:21.480 --> 0:49:23.960 October seventh he did the same thing in Israel and 0:49:24.040 --> 0:49:27.400 went and you know, gave food to the to the 0:49:27.520 --> 0:49:29.879 to the different Kibut seam that were affected by the 0:49:29.920 --> 0:49:35.000 October seventh attacks, and at first very much positioned himself 0:49:35.040 --> 0:49:38.279 as like, we're here to help relieve the affect at 0:49:38.360 --> 0:49:43.920 israelis which again for like polite liberals in the humanitarian world. 0:49:44.280 --> 0:49:48.920 You know, Israel Ukraine both aligned with Western interests, Western 0:49:49.000 --> 0:49:55.520 values theoretically, and I think and then you know, suddenly 0:49:55.560 --> 0:49:58.320 the war focus goes from what happened to the kibbut 0:49:58.400 --> 0:50:02.279 seem to what's happening in Gaza. And so they went 0:50:02.320 --> 0:50:04.520 to Egypt and they started helping the refugees, and then 0:50:04.520 --> 0:50:06.279 they tried to get into Gaza. Then they did get 0:50:06.320 --> 0:50:10.600 into Gaza and they set up, you know, an effective 0:50:10.640 --> 0:50:15.360 system of the food aid. And I started to notice 0:50:15.880 --> 0:50:19.200 while that was happening that the perspectives of a lot 0:50:19.239 --> 0:50:21.480 of the people that I was working with in the 0:50:21.520 --> 0:50:23.680 aid community were starting to shift on this whole thing. 0:50:24.160 --> 0:50:26.719 People who didn't have a political interest in supporting the 0:50:26.719 --> 0:50:29.600 Palestinians and were just kind of supporting Israel because of 0:50:29.640 --> 0:50:34.360 the default. When they actually went to Gaza, they started 0:50:34.440 --> 0:50:36.840 to really change their tune. 0:50:37.120 --> 0:50:38.000 And you see this. 0:50:37.960 --> 0:50:41.719 A little bit with Jose Andres as well. I think 0:50:41.800 --> 0:50:46.040 Jose Andres was, yeah, I mean this in terms of 0:50:46.080 --> 0:50:48.680 his personal views on Israel, they seem to have very 0:50:48.680 --> 0:50:52.040 clearly evolved. You can see very soon after October seventh, 0:50:52.080 --> 0:50:57.200 he is calling out the Spanish Prime Minister on calling 0:50:57.280 --> 0:51:00.480 what's happening in Palestine and genocide. He's saying Israel has 0:51:00.520 --> 0:51:02.800 the rights to defend itself, and then he spends a 0:51:02.800 --> 0:51:06.600 bunch of time in Gaza, and now he's greeting everyone 0:51:06.800 --> 0:51:10.840 in Arabic, and then this thing happens, and he immediately 0:51:10.840 --> 0:51:13.880 points the finger at ISRAELI says, you guys targeted my team, 0:51:14.239 --> 0:51:16.439 you killed them deliberately, and you made sure the job 0:51:16.560 --> 0:51:22.200 was finished, and that is just so reproachable. And in 0:51:22.280 --> 0:51:25.759 doing so, he became one of the only really big 0:51:25.840 --> 0:51:30.200 celebrity voices to make what appeared to be something of 0:51:30.239 --> 0:51:33.400 a one to eighty turn on that conflict. And pretty 0:51:33.440 --> 0:51:35.800 much everyone that I've worked with in the humanitarian or 0:51:35.920 --> 0:51:39.400 journalism space has also done the same thing in regard 0:51:39.400 --> 0:51:42.000 to Gaza. I'd say most people thought my views on 0:51:42.040 --> 0:51:44.560 this were too extreme after October seventh, when I began 0:51:44.600 --> 0:51:48.520 immediately criticizing Israel, and now the ones who have actually 0:51:48.520 --> 0:51:53.040 been there pretty much on equivocally say they're the bad 0:51:53.040 --> 0:51:55.799 actor in this region. And I think you saw that 0:51:55.840 --> 0:51:58.320 shift happen in real time with sort of the attitude 0:51:58.320 --> 0:52:02.240 that World Central Kitchen took to Gaza. All that stuff 0:52:02.280 --> 0:52:04.439 is available from public statements. I don't want to share 0:52:04.440 --> 0:52:06.760 private sentiments that have been shared with me by members 0:52:06.800 --> 0:52:08.880 of World Central Kitchen staff. Those are their own and 0:52:08.920 --> 0:52:11.640 they don't represent the organization. But I think even just 0:52:12.000 --> 0:52:15.880 watching the yo yo of Jose Andres's perspective on this 0:52:16.000 --> 0:52:17.240 change has been enlightening. 0:52:18.160 --> 0:52:21.600 Yeah, And I think, like it's easy to be critical 0:52:21.640 --> 0:52:25.400 of someone for having opinions which like have not aided well, right, Like, 0:52:25.440 --> 0:52:27.680 and sometimes that's okay sometimes some since we need to 0:52:27.760 --> 0:52:30.279 do that, sometimes people say shit which is unforgivable. But 0:52:30.440 --> 0:52:35.200 like I think in this instance, like we can be 0:52:35.239 --> 0:52:37.839 critical at a point, but I don't think now it's 0:52:37.880 --> 0:52:40.120 a time for that. Like I think now it's a 0:52:40.160 --> 0:52:44.160 time for like everyone who wants the starving and killing 0:52:44.239 --> 0:52:47.080 of innocent people in Gaza to stop is on our 0:52:47.320 --> 0:52:50.160 side right now, and we need to welcome that. And 0:52:50.320 --> 0:52:53.480 like there are a lot of people in this country 0:52:53.600 --> 0:52:56.720 right who we need to do that same one eighty 0:52:57.040 --> 0:53:01.160 and giving examples of people doing that is good, like 0:53:01.200 --> 0:53:03.200 they and there are a lot of people who don't 0:53:03.200 --> 0:53:06.120 see themselves when they see dead people in Gaza, and 0:53:06.160 --> 0:53:07.719 that's a problem, right, And that's some shit that they 0:53:07.760 --> 0:53:10.279 need to examine, and because there's a lot of bigotry there. 0:53:10.520 --> 0:53:14.360 But if they see themselves in those aid workers, or 0:53:14.400 --> 0:53:17.480 they see themselves in Jose Andres, and look fucking when 0:53:17.520 --> 0:53:20.080 I saw the bodies of those aid workers, right, you 0:53:20.120 --> 0:53:22.960 have a tall, skinny British guy with long hair in 0:53:23.000 --> 0:53:25.319 a plate carrier with a badge on like that, That's 0:53:25.320 --> 0:53:27.640 what I look like to ninety nine percent of the world, 0:53:27.719 --> 0:53:29.840 and it's hard not to feel like, oh shit, like 0:53:30.640 --> 0:53:35.400 that could be me, and and I have well, I 0:53:35.400 --> 0:53:36.719 feel like I have a lot of empathy for people 0:53:36.719 --> 0:53:38.600 in guys that are friends in guars that we speak 0:53:38.600 --> 0:53:40.200 to them on the podcast sharing and I spoke to 0:53:40.200 --> 0:53:43.720 them last week. But whatever it takes for those people 0:53:43.719 --> 0:53:46.400 to change their opinions right now is what we need, 0:53:47.040 --> 0:53:50.520 and we can we can dissect how we got here later, 0:53:50.640 --> 0:53:55.640 but like every minute that this continues, more innocent people die. 0:53:56.000 --> 0:53:58.759 And if we can stop this one minute sooner than 0:53:58.800 --> 0:54:01.080 there's an important life that we can save. And I 0:54:01.120 --> 0:54:04.200 think it's really important to focus on where we are, 0:54:04.560 --> 0:54:06.680 not like how how we got here right now, if 0:54:06.680 --> 0:54:07.600 that makes sense. 0:54:08.000 --> 0:54:10.759 As far as global conflicts go. I believe it's like 0:54:10.800 --> 0:54:14.600 two hundred and twenty four AID workers have died in Gaza, 0:54:14.640 --> 0:54:17.959 which is not a normal number in any kind of war. 0:54:18.600 --> 0:54:20.160 So that's according to the UN. 0:54:20.680 --> 0:54:24.319 Yeah, one hundred journalists, right like every there is one 0:54:24.360 --> 0:54:26.279 person I can think of who has worked with in 0:54:26.320 --> 0:54:29.640 Gaza who is still alive. Everyone I know has lost 0:54:29.640 --> 0:54:33.360 family members, and that that's just my tiny slice, you know, 0:54:33.400 --> 0:54:37.240 and by no means as affected by this as most people. 0:54:37.840 --> 0:54:40.640 But yeah, that three times as many children have died 0:54:40.680 --> 0:54:43.240 since October in Gaza as are normally killed in conflicts 0:54:43.280 --> 0:54:48.560 in a year worldwide. It's fucking horrific. And yeah, we 0:54:48.600 --> 0:54:51.279 will do well to put aside our differences and make 0:54:51.320 --> 0:54:52.120 it stop, I think. 0:54:52.800 --> 0:54:57.080 Yeah, I agree, opposition to genocide and wanting to end 0:54:57.080 --> 0:54:59.600 it should be a very big tent and the fact 0:54:59.600 --> 0:55:01.480 that some people on the Internet are trying to make 0:55:01.520 --> 0:55:03.480 it a smaller one doesn't make a lot of sense 0:55:03.520 --> 0:55:03.719 to me. 0:55:04.120 --> 0:55:04.440 Yeah. 0:55:04.520 --> 0:55:08.959 Yeah, yeah, it promotes infighting, which is not helpful right now. Yeah, 0:55:08.960 --> 0:55:11.200 it is helpful to not call it a war and 0:55:11.200 --> 0:55:14.799 continue calling a genocide because that's what it is. So yeah, 0:55:14.960 --> 0:55:19.759 just continuing to change all the rhetoric around this genocide 0:55:19.800 --> 0:55:22.600 I think is important. This is also not the first 0:55:22.600 --> 0:55:27.000 time that Israel has directly targeted aid workers that are 0:55:27.360 --> 0:55:30.160 clearly labeled as aid workers. In two thousand and six 0:55:30.200 --> 0:55:35.200 and Lebanon, Israel struck a red Cross ambulance right in 0:55:35.280 --> 0:55:37.440 the center of the logo. Right on top of the 0:55:37.480 --> 0:55:41.200 truck there was or the van was a red cross, 0:55:41.280 --> 0:55:43.960 a clear red cross, and it struck right in the center. 0:55:44.640 --> 0:55:47.719 I think that image is now going around again from 0:55:47.719 --> 0:55:48.520 two thousand and six. 0:55:48.600 --> 0:55:48.920 Again. 0:55:49.200 --> 0:55:51.320 It's not the first time that Israel has directly targeted 0:55:51.320 --> 0:55:56.680 AID workers, and I think it's really appalling seeing leadership 0:55:56.680 --> 0:56:00.799 in Israel just kind of apologize half hardly, being like 0:56:00.840 --> 0:56:03.040 this was a mistake, and then they just move on. 0:56:04.160 --> 0:56:08.640 It's if this was the red line for people. I one, 0:56:08.719 --> 0:56:11.439 I find that frustrating, But if it's finally the red 0:56:11.600 --> 0:56:13.560 line for people, I just hope it continues and people 0:56:13.600 --> 0:56:14.200 don't let it go. 0:56:14.880 --> 0:56:17.719 That story that was absolutely fucking heartbreaking, right of that 0:56:17.800 --> 0:56:20.640 young girl who was trapped in her car and she 0:56:20.760 --> 0:56:22.640 called the ambulance and the ambulance came and they bombed 0:56:22.680 --> 0:56:24.080 the ambulance right and they killed her. And they called 0:56:24.080 --> 0:56:27.440 the ambulance drivers like those two ambulance drivers were Palestinian. 0:56:27.840 --> 0:56:29.839 They were working for the Palestinian Red Crest and they 0:56:29.880 --> 0:56:32.719 deserve every bit as much outrage as the words Central 0:56:32.760 --> 0:56:36.080 Kitchen people do what they did with every bit as admirable, 0:56:37.280 --> 0:56:39.880 but like, if this is what it takes for people 0:56:39.880 --> 0:56:43.000 to change, then like I hope that they will also 0:56:43.040 --> 0:56:45.840 acknowledge that everything else that happened before was an a 0:56:45.880 --> 0:56:49.640 trustee too, talking of like a trustees, we have an 0:56:49.680 --> 0:56:51.360 advertising break now. 0:56:52.200 --> 0:57:05.759 That was good James, good job, and we're back. 0:57:06.800 --> 0:57:10.399 Charles. You recently got some online attention for a video 0:57:10.440 --> 0:57:14.480 that you posted that was highlighting the vast imbalance of 0:57:14.520 --> 0:57:18.440 attention that the targeted assassination of the AID workers got 0:57:18.840 --> 0:57:24.080 in comparison to the murder and genocide of Palestinians. Specifically, 0:57:24.120 --> 0:57:26.920 people were talking about how there was also a Palestinian 0:57:27.040 --> 0:57:29.480 driver who was murdered along with the AID workers and 0:57:29.560 --> 0:57:32.000 his name was not getting mentioned. His name is safe, 0:57:32.040 --> 0:57:36.400 Isam Abudaha. And just a reminder of how frustrating it 0:57:36.440 --> 0:57:38.520 is that this had to be the red line for people. 0:57:39.680 --> 0:57:42.840 There are over thirty three thousand people in Gaza who 0:57:42.840 --> 0:57:46.320 have been murdered, nearly half of which are children. There 0:57:46.360 --> 0:57:49.880 are probably thousands more who are trapped under the rubble, 0:57:50.600 --> 0:57:53.360 and other thousands that are just unaccounted for because of 0:57:53.400 --> 0:57:57.080 the bobbing of hospitals and the lack of records. So 0:57:57.160 --> 0:58:00.800 to have the killing of six aid workers be a 0:58:00.840 --> 0:58:04.040 red line for people. That's what I mean by saying 0:58:04.080 --> 0:58:08.080 it's frustrating because it is a tragedy, but tragedy has 0:58:08.080 --> 0:58:10.800 been taking place for the past six months and also 0:58:10.920 --> 0:58:15.640 the past seventy six years. So yes, the video that 0:58:15.760 --> 0:58:19.880 Charles made gossa well deserved attention, and I'd love for 0:58:19.920 --> 0:58:21.160 you to talk about it a little bit. 0:58:22.240 --> 0:58:22.520 Yeah. 0:58:22.560 --> 0:58:25.320 So this was like a strange convergence of things for 0:58:25.360 --> 0:58:28.880 me because I had been keeping up with the WCK 0:58:29.040 --> 0:58:31.480 team as they went into Gaza. I'd actually even been 0:58:31.480 --> 0:58:34.280 in conversations with some of them about potentially going there, 0:58:34.880 --> 0:58:37.200 but I hadn't. I mean, like these were just buddies 0:58:37.200 --> 0:58:40.720 from a humanitarian trip. I mean, you know, like James 0:58:40.720 --> 0:58:43.800 probably knows, you make friends really fast when you're connected, 0:58:43.840 --> 0:58:46.680 when you're in these sorts of scenarios, and you know, 0:58:46.760 --> 0:58:48.800 I had, I made friendships while I was in Turkey 0:58:48.840 --> 0:58:54.000 that I've maintained, and but then my my Palestinian advocacy 0:58:54.080 --> 0:58:57.320 was separate. You know, I'm over here educating and everything. 0:58:58.520 --> 0:59:02.880 And then suddenly there's this converse jints of like former 0:59:04.520 --> 0:59:08.520 co workers on this team dying and then it being 0:59:08.560 --> 0:59:10.600 the fault of this regime that I've spent the last 0:59:10.680 --> 0:59:13.720 six months trying to educate people on why it's bad. 0:59:14.480 --> 0:59:18.480 And I posted a video which was my tribute to 0:59:18.520 --> 0:59:21.880 the fallen WCK employees, who were very close friends of 0:59:21.960 --> 0:59:24.720 people that I got really close to on that project, 0:59:26.000 --> 0:59:31.880 and it was a tribute to them and also a 0:59:31.920 --> 0:59:36.760 way of pointing out how their martyrdom has been has 0:59:36.840 --> 0:59:42.200 overshadowed the martyrdom of so many Palestinians who will never 0:59:42.280 --> 0:59:44.680 get the kind of press and attention that they did, 0:59:46.520 --> 0:59:51.280 and I think it achieved that effect. The video went very, 0:59:51.480 --> 0:59:54.640 very viral. It's exceeded a million views on TikTok, it's 0:59:54.760 --> 0:59:57.760 around a quarter a million on Instagram, and more than 0:59:57.800 --> 1:00:00.720 that on the accounts that have reposted and shared it, 1:00:00.840 --> 1:00:03.439 sometimes without the context that I am not a World 1:00:03.520 --> 1:00:06.280 Central Kitchen employee, nor do I represent the opinions of 1:00:06.320 --> 1:00:09.080 the organization. And one of the things that I think 1:00:09.200 --> 1:00:12.200 made that story go viral is that I did shift 1:00:12.240 --> 1:00:15.800 the attention to I said, this is a genocide, and 1:00:15.840 --> 1:00:19.640 I said, as grieved as I am at the loss 1:00:19.640 --> 1:00:21.840 of these people that I have this connection with, I 1:00:21.880 --> 1:00:24.600 do want to point out that it is overshadowing the 1:00:24.720 --> 1:00:28.280 horrendous loss of life of Palestinians, and I think that 1:00:28.400 --> 1:00:31.120 resonated with a lot of people. It also resonated with 1:00:31.600 --> 1:00:36.400 my former my friends at w CK, who reached out 1:00:36.400 --> 1:00:40.400 to say, we appreciate you using your platform to talk 1:00:40.440 --> 1:00:43.880 about this, especially considering the fact that w CK employees 1:00:44.320 --> 1:00:46.760 do not typically are not really supposed to be making 1:00:46.800 --> 1:00:50.240 statements online about this, so they have a little more 1:00:50.280 --> 1:00:54.560 leeway with that. Concerning the fact that the head of 1:00:54.600 --> 1:00:58.360 the organization has explicitly now condemned Israel for this strike, 1:00:58.720 --> 1:01:01.040 but I've had some very interesting conversations with friends of 1:01:01.080 --> 1:01:04.640 mine that either still work or connected to the organization. 1:01:05.760 --> 1:01:09.160 And that's a slightly complicated thing because World Central Kitchen 1:01:09.200 --> 1:01:12.040 subcontracts with so many different people, So at any given point, 1:01:12.080 --> 1:01:14.040 there are people who are connected to World Central Kitchen 1:01:14.080 --> 1:01:17.360 who are not representatives of the organization or technically employees. 1:01:17.400 --> 1:01:20.240 So you know, you can't say definitively this is what 1:01:21.040 --> 1:01:23.840 the majority of people in WCK feel about Gaza or 1:01:23.920 --> 1:01:27.280 Israel or anything. You know, different people have different opinions 1:01:27.880 --> 1:01:29.280 about that whole situation. 1:01:30.000 --> 1:01:32.040 I think what you tried to do was obviously not 1:01:32.360 --> 1:01:35.200 to represent them, and it would be disingenuous any want 1:01:35.200 --> 1:01:37.800 to suggest you did, but the internet does that. I 1:01:37.840 --> 1:01:41.160 want to talk about one more, talking of disindienuous things 1:01:41.160 --> 1:01:43.720 on the Internet, I guess there was this thing that 1:01:43.800 --> 1:01:47.360 went around immediately in the aftermath of the photos coming 1:01:47.360 --> 1:01:52.960 out of the different people's corpses that like it seemed 1:01:53.000 --> 1:01:55.600 to be mostly like tankies or perhaps people who still 1:01:55.640 --> 1:01:58.120 believe that they can generate revenue from views on Twitter, 1:01:58.640 --> 1:02:02.200 saying that like, because these people had a security team, 1:02:02.240 --> 1:02:04.840 the security team was somehow spies and the evidence they're 1:02:04.840 --> 1:02:08.240 working phase are right, and you can speak to your 1:02:08.280 --> 1:02:11.400 experienced childis like, I've worked with security teams and seen 1:02:11.440 --> 1:02:14.280 people working with security teams all over the fucking world 1:02:14.280 --> 1:02:16.840 because war is dangerous and you have the thing that 1:02:16.880 --> 1:02:18.000 everyone needs. 1:02:18.480 --> 1:02:20.440 If you have the misfortune of being a veteran of 1:02:20.480 --> 1:02:23.440 the global War on Terror, you have a very few 1:02:23.840 --> 1:02:28.680 outlets for your skill set. One of those is providing 1:02:28.720 --> 1:02:33.920 security for humanitarian actors and journalists, and that is one 1:02:33.920 --> 1:02:37.760 of the most pro social applications of your skill set. 1:02:38.280 --> 1:02:42.480 Yeah, those things to do with those skills, believe me, right. 1:02:43.080 --> 1:02:47.600 So I have encountered a lot of people in my 1:02:47.760 --> 1:02:53.040 time in Ukraine and elsewhere who have decided to turn 1:02:53.160 --> 1:02:59.240 their sort of military intelligence background experience into you know, well, okay, 1:02:59.400 --> 1:03:02.080 I'm good at this. I'm familiar with these types of scenarios. 1:03:02.120 --> 1:03:04.720 And if there's one thing I'm decent at, it's well, 1:03:04.800 --> 1:03:08.200 at least trying to keep people safe and give them intelligence. 1:03:08.400 --> 1:03:12.560 And that is a that's never a guarantee. But in 1:03:12.640 --> 1:03:16.040 all the people I've met who actually are legit, you know, 1:03:16.240 --> 1:03:20.280 security consultants or or just veterans who have applied their 1:03:20.280 --> 1:03:24.000 skills towards a pro social humanitarian purpose are pretty good guys. 1:03:24.200 --> 1:03:27.920 And while I'm sure you know there are some of 1:03:27.920 --> 1:03:34.720 them who are connected to various you are still connected 1:03:34.760 --> 1:03:37.520 to sort of the intelligence services of their various countries. 1:03:38.440 --> 1:03:40.600 I think that's definitely a possibility. A lot of them 1:03:40.640 --> 1:03:42.800 are not. They're just veterans who are trying to help 1:03:42.840 --> 1:03:44.800 and they this is a way that they can make 1:03:44.840 --> 1:03:47.400 a living and while doing something that has a low 1:03:47.480 --> 1:03:48.520 moral hazard. 1:03:49.120 --> 1:03:49.800 So yeah, I. 1:03:50.280 --> 1:03:54.120 Dismissed that stuff. There's a lot of conspiracies. The problem is, 1:03:54.160 --> 1:03:57.800 I mean, in the vacuum of the sort of post 1:03:57.880 --> 1:04:01.000 manufacturing consent world where none of us truyus the Western 1:04:01.040 --> 1:04:04.440 liberal media. A lot of people trust stuff that's even dumber, 1:04:05.160 --> 1:04:08.959 including just like takes on the Internet that somebody pulled 1:04:08.960 --> 1:04:11.560 out of their ass. And a lot of it is 1:04:11.600 --> 1:04:15.400 if you have set yourself up against everything that comes 1:04:15.400 --> 1:04:17.960 out of the West, then every everything that looks like 1:04:18.000 --> 1:04:21.919 a fingerprint of an intelligence agency or anything is going 1:04:21.960 --> 1:04:24.760 to ring your alarm bells, obviously, you know, James. I 1:04:24.760 --> 1:04:27.480 feel like Ukraine is a great example of this. The 1:04:27.480 --> 1:04:30.040 fact that the United States supports Ukraine means that Ukraine 1:04:30.120 --> 1:04:32.920 must be the villain, and that the entire thing must 1:04:32.960 --> 1:04:35.320 be a CIA SIOP and their spies everywhere. And I'm 1:04:35.320 --> 1:04:37.520 a spy for going to Ukraine and helping grandmothers get 1:04:37.560 --> 1:04:41.160 their insulin. All of those things have been said about Ukraine, 1:04:41.200 --> 1:04:44.640 about me, about you know that sort of thing, and 1:04:44.680 --> 1:04:46.320 we know it, we know it's not true. 1:04:46.320 --> 1:04:47.240 It's just that people. 1:04:47.920 --> 1:04:51.000 I mean, these, as far as I know, these were 1:04:51.240 --> 1:04:54.880 guys who were security consultants, very similar to I work 1:04:54.920 --> 1:04:56.840 with a lot of British veterans of the Global War 1:04:56.840 --> 1:05:00.560 on tear, basically on various different projects, of it having 1:05:00.560 --> 1:05:03.960 to do with PTSD, others having to do with environmental conservation. 1:05:04.840 --> 1:05:08.040 Some of whom have worked in Palestine and been in 1:05:08.080 --> 1:05:12.160 the West Bank. And I think Brits by and large 1:05:12.240 --> 1:05:15.920 have a more sane perspective on Palestine than people in 1:05:15.960 --> 1:05:18.000 the US too. I've just noticed that they are like 1:05:18.080 --> 1:05:21.280 fewer ultra Zionist Brits than Americans. 1:05:21.480 --> 1:05:24.280 I think our politics is less dominated by that perspective. 1:05:24.440 --> 1:05:27.520 There are ultra zion As British people, but yeah, it's 1:05:27.560 --> 1:05:31.800 also just I think a little bit harder to live 1:05:31.800 --> 1:05:34.920 a life in Britain where you don't know, it's not 1:05:35.200 --> 1:05:39.640 Palestinian people, Arab people and and Muslim people, right, and 1:05:39.680 --> 1:05:44.240 that complete demonization and dehumanization of Muslim people that the 1:05:44.280 --> 1:05:47.200 Western media did for twenty years to manufacture consent for 1:05:47.320 --> 1:05:50.600 war that wasn't about weapons of master attraction or women 1:05:50.600 --> 1:05:54.040 in Afghanistan. It doesn't stick the landing quite so well 1:05:54.480 --> 1:05:57.120 when like, you have friends and you can kind of 1:05:57.120 --> 1:05:58.840 see through the nonsense. Yeah. 1:05:58.880 --> 1:06:01.440 Well, also I think the percent of like evangelical Christians 1:06:01.480 --> 1:06:02.600 was probably much less. 1:06:03.360 --> 1:06:03.560 Yeah. 1:06:03.640 --> 1:06:06.240 No one's bringing a fucking red cow in England to 1:06:06.320 --> 1:06:09.280 take it to this third temple that I know of. 1:06:10.640 --> 1:06:11.800 That was one of the things I was going to 1:06:11.800 --> 1:06:13.720 point out is I don't think you even have to know, 1:06:14.120 --> 1:06:15.960 like to be a Zionist, you don't even have to 1:06:15.960 --> 1:06:17.960 know Jewish people in the US. I was raised an 1:06:18.040 --> 1:06:21.840 ultra Zionist without knowing a single Jewish family because I 1:06:21.920 --> 1:06:24.560 came from an evangelical community in South Carolina that was 1:06:24.760 --> 1:06:29.760 very Christo nationalist, very kind of culturally dispensationalist. Even though 1:06:29.800 --> 1:06:32.800 my family wasn't dispensationalist. It was all about in times, 1:06:32.920 --> 1:06:35.640 you support Israel because that's where you know, that's where 1:06:35.720 --> 1:06:38.280 Jesus is going to come back. So yeah, I remember, 1:06:38.320 --> 1:06:40.800 I mean I I we even had like fake Passover 1:06:40.880 --> 1:06:44.600 ceremonies in our church. God, this is bringing up some interesting. 1:06:45.000 --> 1:06:48.000 Yeah, into the trima bugs. 1:06:48.760 --> 1:06:51.760 But truly, I mean one of my one of my 1:06:52.200 --> 1:06:55.800 early sort of I would say I was I was 1:06:55.880 --> 1:06:59.280 completely anti Zionist before I was even a leftist. And 1:06:59.320 --> 1:07:01.280 part of that reason was because I got to know 1:07:01.320 --> 1:07:05.000 a Palestinian friend in Washington, d C. While sharing a 1:07:05.040 --> 1:07:09.480 desk with an Israeli conservative and a liberal Zionist. 1:07:09.920 --> 1:07:13.640 Wow that is and yeah, joke like these people walk 1:07:13.640 --> 1:07:16.360 into a bar, Yeah, trio of. 1:07:16.240 --> 1:07:19.720 People, So I like I think I had kind of 1:07:19.720 --> 1:07:22.600 I got pilled on Palestine. Part of it was because 1:07:22.640 --> 1:07:25.800 like I was history major in college, so I learned historiography. 1:07:25.880 --> 1:07:29.400 I just never applied historiography to the Israel Palestine conflict. 1:07:29.880 --> 1:07:32.560 And then having these two voices in my ear while 1:07:32.600 --> 1:07:34.440 like living and working in DC, I was like, oh, 1:07:34.480 --> 1:07:37.040 I need to actually look into this, and so yeah, 1:07:37.040 --> 1:07:38.360 I mean I would say even before I was like 1:07:38.400 --> 1:07:42.600 a leftist, I was down on Israel. I figured they 1:07:42.600 --> 1:07:45.480 were not the good guys. And then I think reading 1:07:45.640 --> 1:07:50.320 The Fateful Triangle by nome Chrompsky really solidified that. And uh, 1:07:50.480 --> 1:07:53.200 obviously Ilan Pope kind of was the nail on the 1:07:53.200 --> 1:07:56.480 coffin for me. So yeah, and speaking of like you 1:07:56.520 --> 1:08:01.040 know what happens in DC, and you know, America's opinions 1:08:01.120 --> 1:08:06.120 on the Middle East, most of them are dogshit opinions 1:08:06.440 --> 1:08:09.080 because most people do not have some sort of strong 1:08:09.120 --> 1:08:12.240 point of reference to this zone. But it goes back 1:08:12.240 --> 1:08:15.720 to what we were saying about how being against genocides 1:08:15.720 --> 1:08:18.040 should be a very big tent and we should resist 1:08:18.040 --> 1:08:21.160 efforts to make it smaller. Because I'm reading through the 1:08:21.280 --> 1:08:24.920 Hundred Years War in Palestine right now Rashid Khaldi, and 1:08:25.479 --> 1:08:29.000 one of the things that he said is how the 1:08:29.040 --> 1:08:33.759 war is fought in the United States in Congress because 1:08:33.760 --> 1:08:37.559 we hold the keys. So as much as it's as 1:08:37.640 --> 1:08:40.639 painful as it is to try and change the minds 1:08:40.760 --> 1:08:46.480 of dumb Americans with no geopolitical understanding, it's absolutely essential 1:08:47.040 --> 1:08:52.320 to holding Israel to account. It is actually one of 1:08:52.360 --> 1:08:56.040 the best things that you can do. And when someone 1:08:56.080 --> 1:09:01.200 who has the international appeal of Chef jose Andres points 1:09:01.200 --> 1:09:03.800 the finger at Israel and said, you killed my employees 1:09:03.840 --> 1:09:08.559 deliberately and you're starving Gazans, that goes a long way 1:09:08.640 --> 1:09:13.439 towards shifting the opinions of the people who actually hold 1:09:13.479 --> 1:09:15.080 the keys to everything Israel does. 1:09:16.040 --> 1:09:17.880 Yeah, I think that's a very good point, and like 1:09:19.280 --> 1:09:21.080 that's what we need to do, right And I like 1:09:21.120 --> 1:09:24.320 to stop them getting bombs to kill people, not argue 1:09:24.320 --> 1:09:27.479 you on Twitter or you know, Instagram or what have you. Like, 1:09:27.520 --> 1:09:33.800 we need to make the killing stop. I wonder, like 1:09:35.080 --> 1:09:37.920 you spoke at Childs but knowing people I know, Central 1:09:38.000 --> 1:09:43.120 Kitchen are no longer working in Gaza for the time being. 1:09:43.400 --> 1:09:45.000 From when is that still correct? 1:09:45.240 --> 1:09:49.080 They they've publicly announced that they're scaling back their efforts. Yes, 1:09:49.400 --> 1:09:51.840 I'm not sure if they're going to totally close down 1:09:51.880 --> 1:09:55.000 their operation. I think right now they're probably trying to 1:09:55.840 --> 1:09:59.840 reconsider their security protocols before making another step. 1:10:00.120 --> 1:10:04.479 Yeah, I mean I don't really know what as there 1:10:04.479 --> 1:10:07.439 are things, of course, but like they did attempt to 1:10:07.479 --> 1:10:10.280 deconflict I guess, and they were using a road which 1:10:10.320 --> 1:10:13.760 is designated for the use that they were using it for, and. 1:10:14.280 --> 1:10:17.160 Israel knew where they were, Like it's they have to 1:10:17.200 --> 1:10:20.160 report where they are. So, I mean, it would be 1:10:20.200 --> 1:10:24.680 fucking crazy if Israel attacked Abergers again right now, but 1:10:24.760 --> 1:10:28.880 also it's Israel. I mean, I've done crazier things. 1:10:28.960 --> 1:10:31.519 Yeah, but can we like dwell on that for a second. 1:10:31.640 --> 1:10:35.920 Like Israel constantly boasts about its ISR capabilities mm HM 1:10:36.400 --> 1:10:40.040 in ISR's intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance. So like Israel is 1:10:40.040 --> 1:10:43.519 constantly reassuring people that it is doing everything it can 1:10:43.920 --> 1:10:46.680 to avoid civilian casualties, it talks about its chain of 1:10:46.720 --> 1:10:50.800 command for approval. And in light of that, none of 1:10:50.840 --> 1:10:53.760 the things that they've said about this make any sense whatsoever, 1:10:54.840 --> 1:10:58.280 because if if they're protocols, because they're either, it's like 1:10:58.320 --> 1:11:03.000 they can't decide what they're trying to gaslight the world 1:11:03.320 --> 1:11:08.160 into believing every claim that they're making is muddling what 1:11:08.240 --> 1:11:10.200 they're trying to get the world to believe about them, 1:11:10.360 --> 1:11:15.719 and it just gives everyone the distinct impression that they're recklessly, incompetent, lying, evil, 1:11:15.840 --> 1:11:16.840 or potentially all three. 1:11:18.080 --> 1:11:21.240 Right, even if you look, I was because I don't 1:11:21.240 --> 1:11:22.920 know why this is the thing that I do. I 1:11:22.960 --> 1:11:24.679 was looking at like trying to work out what munition 1:11:24.800 --> 1:11:29.559 Israel hood used, right to destroy those vehicles, And Israel 1:11:29.720 --> 1:11:32.599 has they have a number of different sort of musus 1:11:32.640 --> 1:11:35.120 that they could have used. But one of the things 1:11:35.120 --> 1:11:37.280 that they do in the US does it too, but 1:11:37.360 --> 1:11:40.160 it's a bigger thing with Israel is if they have 1:11:40.320 --> 1:11:43.240 inert or low yield health fire ammunitions sort of guided 1:11:43.360 --> 1:11:46.080 munitions at a five from a helicopter or drone, and 1:11:46.160 --> 1:11:48.040 they use them to do a thing that they call 1:11:48.200 --> 1:11:51.719 roof knocking, right, which sounds maybe like you're like knocking 1:11:51.760 --> 1:11:54.080 on someone's ref What you're doing is sending a missile 1:11:54.160 --> 1:11:57.760 through somebody's roof, and that is the means by which 1:11:57.800 --> 1:12:00.519 you alert them to evacuate the building because you planning 1:12:00.560 --> 1:12:03.439 a larger strike that in itself. Yeah, we have this 1:12:03.479 --> 1:12:08.559 great ISR capability and what do we do? We launch 1:12:08.680 --> 1:12:11.559 missiles into the homes of civilians and then hopefully they 1:12:11.600 --> 1:12:13.720 will run away and fear for their lives so that 1:12:14.200 --> 1:12:16.000 more of them don't die when we blow up that 1:12:16.040 --> 1:12:20.400 block ten minutes later. Like, it's just you know, you 1:12:20.479 --> 1:12:22.679 have to look at what's happening, not what's being said. 1:12:23.080 --> 1:12:24.240 I guess, but. 1:12:24.240 --> 1:12:26.920 No, there they're absolutely allergic to accountability. And I think 1:12:26.920 --> 1:12:28.720 you can see just how far they've been able. They're 1:12:28.720 --> 1:12:30.559 scrambling now because they've been able to get away with 1:12:30.600 --> 1:12:33.800 so much for so long, and their excuses are falling 1:12:33.880 --> 1:12:37.360 apart because they're alternatively depicting themselves as a highly disciplined 1:12:37.400 --> 1:12:42.519 and professional, you know, army, or that they're just making 1:12:42.560 --> 1:12:45.519 mistakes because it's war and that people should get off 1:12:45.560 --> 1:12:47.680 their back because no one holds anyone else at the 1:12:47.720 --> 1:12:49.160 same standard that they hold Israel. 1:12:49.400 --> 1:12:49.439 It. 1:12:49.479 --> 1:12:51.280 So I was like, which is it? Like, what are 1:12:51.280 --> 1:12:53.000 you trying to get the world to believe? Are you 1:12:53.080 --> 1:12:55.960 either this like crack discipline unit with a very sophisticated 1:12:56.000 --> 1:12:58.880 chain of command in an AI software that you're really 1:12:58.880 --> 1:13:01.559 proud of for targeting, or are you is this the 1:13:01.600 --> 1:13:03.719 fog of war and you're just making mistakes and everyone 1:13:03.760 --> 1:13:05.360 makes mistakes and we should get off your back for 1:13:05.400 --> 1:13:06.360 it because you can't. 1:13:06.160 --> 1:13:06.840 Have it both ways. 1:13:06.960 --> 1:13:07.600 Yeah. 1:13:07.680 --> 1:13:10.000 Yeah, the civilian casualties are too high for you to 1:13:10.040 --> 1:13:14.920 have it both ways. So either you are making mistakes 1:13:15.200 --> 1:13:18.000 and too many people are getting killed and you're violating 1:13:18.040 --> 1:13:20.080 the laws of rule, or you're doing it deliberately, which 1:13:20.120 --> 1:13:20.519 is worse. 1:13:21.200 --> 1:13:24.320 Yeah, people can make up their in minds. 1:13:24.000 --> 1:13:25.479 I guess Charles. 1:13:25.479 --> 1:13:27.639 Thank you so much for joining us today. I really 1:13:27.640 --> 1:13:30.360 respect all the work you do and I am grateful 1:13:30.400 --> 1:13:33.120 that you have shared your voice with our audience once again. 1:13:33.479 --> 1:13:35.920 Where can people find you on the internet if you 1:13:36.080 --> 1:13:38.519 want to be found, thank. 1:13:38.360 --> 1:13:38.800 You, Shran. 1:13:39.080 --> 1:13:42.320 Yeah, you can find me pretty much everywhere except Twitter 1:13:42.479 --> 1:13:46.320 with Charles McBride and that's McBride with a why rather 1:13:46.400 --> 1:13:52.080 than an I. That's on substack, Instagram, TikTok, and my 1:13:52.160 --> 1:13:55.240 website Charles McBride dot com will be live at this 1:13:55.320 --> 1:13:59.160 point nice when this episode drops. So if you want 1:13:59.200 --> 1:14:02.360 to support the humanitarian work I've been involved in in Ukraine, 1:14:02.720 --> 1:14:06.519 you can support Mission Harkive on Instagram. It's mission dot 1:14:06.560 --> 1:14:12.760 harkive and their website is missionharkive dot com. And if 1:14:12.800 --> 1:14:15.439 you're looking for an org that is already working in 1:14:15.520 --> 1:14:19.040 Gaza to provide life saving aid in the wake of 1:14:19.240 --> 1:14:22.280 you know, unrubbing gone. World Central Kitchen now pulling out 1:14:22.600 --> 1:14:26.040 an era pulling out. Global Empowerment Mission is still there 1:14:26.600 --> 1:14:29.679 and still fulfilling a lot of the same functions that 1:14:30.160 --> 1:14:31.479 those organizations were doing. 1:14:32.400 --> 1:14:34.320 Thank you so much, Charles. 1:14:45.040 --> 1:14:47.559 Scheren and James from the future here giving you an 1:14:47.640 --> 1:14:49.479 update about the article that we mentioned at the top 1:14:49.520 --> 1:14:53.080 of the episode. So the title itself is I resign 1:14:53.200 --> 1:14:55.720 from World Central Kitchen because they refuse to tell the 1:14:55.720 --> 1:14:58.959 truth about the Israeli genocide and Gaza. The ex staffer 1:14:59.040 --> 1:15:03.000 is Ramsey t. The article itself has some really damning 1:15:03.040 --> 1:15:05.840 information about WCK, so we're going to get into it. 1:15:06.520 --> 1:15:10.879 He says, for months, World Central Kitchen leadership censored material 1:15:10.960 --> 1:15:13.840 coming out of its Gaza operation and refused to honor 1:15:13.880 --> 1:15:17.679 staff concerns about their work there. And even though they're 1:15:17.680 --> 1:15:20.360 finally taking a stand after its personnel have been murdered, 1:15:20.479 --> 1:15:23.400 it is much too late. So he resigned in early 1:15:23.479 --> 1:15:25.640 March of this year, and at the time he was 1:15:25.680 --> 1:15:29.519 the only staff member of Palestinian descent at WCK. And 1:15:29.560 --> 1:15:32.240 there is an amendment. There, he says that while WCK 1:15:32.400 --> 1:15:35.920 hired many Palestinian contractors in Gaza in Egypt, he was 1:15:35.960 --> 1:15:39.840 the only Palestinian with staff status following the departure of 1:15:39.920 --> 1:15:43.560 one other longtime employee, and he resigned in protest of 1:15:43.600 --> 1:15:48.000 the extensive unexplained censorship regarding Gaza At the organization. They 1:15:48.000 --> 1:15:50.720 talk about how in December seventh of last year, they 1:15:50.760 --> 1:15:53.960 sent a letter to wck's executive team, and that letter 1:15:54.040 --> 1:15:57.800 called for WCK to join other regionally active NGOs in 1:15:57.840 --> 1:16:01.479 calling for a ceasefire and condemning his reels blockade, as 1:16:01.560 --> 1:16:03.920 well as conforming its language and coverage of Gaza to 1:16:03.960 --> 1:16:06.160 the standard that was stepped by the coverage of Ukraine, 1:16:06.680 --> 1:16:10.519 as well as stopping meal service in Israel. It got 1:16:10.520 --> 1:16:14.680 fourty three signatures, and the WCK executive team declined to 1:16:14.760 --> 1:16:16.960 meet up with the people that signed the letter, and 1:16:17.040 --> 1:16:20.639 they failed to respond to any inquiries, and they also 1:16:20.680 --> 1:16:23.880 actively still served the meals in Israel while the second 1:16:24.000 --> 1:16:27.320 day of the ICJ Genocide hearing was happening in January. 1:16:27.880 --> 1:16:30.000 There's one paragraph that I want to diale as well, 1:16:30.320 --> 1:16:34.120 just because I think it's very crucial when we're discussing 1:16:34.360 --> 1:16:38.160 the fact that these people died working for a Ceter kitchen. 1:16:38.439 --> 1:16:42.000 And that's this paragraph that I would pick up halfway through. 1:16:42.360 --> 1:16:46.120 In another instance, a video of a WCK kitchen caught 1:16:46.160 --> 1:16:49.320 in an IDF bombing was put on hold entirely. It 1:16:49.360 --> 1:16:52.040 appears this incident, as well as the fact that WCK 1:16:52.160 --> 1:16:55.200 personnel were board a UN convoy that was bombed, have 1:16:55.360 --> 1:16:59.680 not been mentioned anywhere externally. Like, I think that's a 1:16:59.760 --> 1:17:04.000 real crucial getting off point. You can have shit politics, 1:17:04.439 --> 1:17:07.200 but if you're not saying stuff when your people are 1:17:07.200 --> 1:17:11.599 getting bombed, like until they're getting killed, A, I don't 1:17:11.600 --> 1:17:15.320 know what's wrong with you, and B if you didn't 1:17:15.400 --> 1:17:17.880 change things that, I don't know they didn't change things, right, 1:17:17.880 --> 1:17:20.840 that's not detailed here, but like you have to change 1:17:20.880 --> 1:17:22.920 things if your people are being bombed, Like if I'm 1:17:23.840 --> 1:17:26.599 working somewhere where that's a likelihood, you know, like if 1:17:26.880 --> 1:17:28.760 if we get bombed once and we're lucky enough to 1:17:28.760 --> 1:17:31.719 be okay, we do not continue doing the same shit. 1:17:31.840 --> 1:17:34.679 And I'm not entirely sure that they did. I don't 1:17:34.720 --> 1:17:37.160 want to for a moment suggest that like the people 1:17:37.160 --> 1:17:40.840 who died were in like complicit right, that's not what 1:17:40.880 --> 1:17:44.080 I'm saying. It's not what you're in saying. I very 1:17:44.200 --> 1:17:47.439 much understand the desire to go to places where dangerous 1:17:47.439 --> 1:17:49.840 things are happening and help the people who did nothing 1:17:49.880 --> 1:17:51.880 to deserve this, and I think the people who did 1:17:51.880 --> 1:17:55.920 that deserve are an ending gratitude and respect. I'm not 1:17:56.400 --> 1:17:59.639 for a minute saying that that's not true. I'm saying 1:17:59.680 --> 1:18:03.479 that this organization needs to really think about how it 1:18:03.520 --> 1:18:06.400 does shit if it wants to continue operating. 1:18:07.200 --> 1:18:10.560 And yeah, the blame is on the executives of this organization. 1:18:11.400 --> 1:18:14.920 The article also talks about how the character of w 1:18:15.120 --> 1:18:19.759 CK's relief response to Gaza. It was revealed very early 1:18:19.840 --> 1:18:24.800 on after October seventh the chief communications officer, Linda Roth. 1:18:25.160 --> 1:18:27.920 She had put out a statement without the communications team's input, 1:18:27.960 --> 1:18:31.120 which is apparently breaking precedent, and it was about how 1:18:31.800 --> 1:18:34.720 Hamas attacked Israel with no mention of the Palestinian lives 1:18:34.760 --> 1:18:37.679 that were lost. And then three days later, Jose Andres 1:18:37.720 --> 1:18:41.080 posted a video to w CK's Instagram where he only 1:18:41.080 --> 1:18:43.719 makes reference to the October seventh attack, with no mention 1:18:43.800 --> 1:18:46.439 of the climbing Palestine death till at the time or 1:18:46.560 --> 1:18:51.479 the blockades and then on social media, Charles mentioned this 1:18:51.560 --> 1:18:55.160 of the episode. On October sixteenth, he tweeted at the 1:18:55.200 --> 1:18:57.800 Spanish Prime Minister to be removed for her protest of 1:18:57.840 --> 1:19:01.160 the Israeli tactics, and at the same time, WCK continued 1:19:01.200 --> 1:19:03.360 to work closely with the IDF over the course of 1:19:03.400 --> 1:19:07.880 the relief response. The initial statement as well as Andre's video, 1:19:08.200 --> 1:19:11.000 were decisions that were made by leadership against the concerns 1:19:11.040 --> 1:19:14.720 of a WCK personnel. There's this paragraph that I want 1:19:14.760 --> 1:19:17.400 to read just verbatim. Much of the work in a 1:19:17.439 --> 1:19:20.840 genocide is not pulling the trigger, but instead minimizing and 1:19:20.960 --> 1:19:24.120 denying that a genocide is going on. Genocide is a 1:19:24.120 --> 1:19:28.559 phenomenon of gradual boundary pushing. Each increment must be accepted 1:19:28.560 --> 1:19:31.400 by the parties with agency for the next to be reached. 1:19:31.840 --> 1:19:34.920 Under the direction of CEO Aaron Gore, Linda Roth, and 1:19:35.160 --> 1:19:40.120 quote Chief Feeding Officer Jose Andres, World Central Kitchen recklessly 1:19:40.240 --> 1:19:44.320 endangered its personnel, selflessly exploited the situation for its own benefit, 1:19:44.439 --> 1:19:48.400 and actively participated in the normalization of an ongoing genocide. 1:19:49.040 --> 1:19:51.759 I think what I want to say more broadly here 1:19:52.040 --> 1:19:54.880 it's my stunts. I guess maybe other people sharre it, man, 1:19:54.920 --> 1:19:57.719 they don't. This situation is not going to be solved 1:19:57.840 --> 1:20:00.719 by NGOs, and it certainly not going to be solved 1:20:00.720 --> 1:20:05.479 by NGOs which have this very explicitly neoliberal political agenda. Right, Like, 1:20:06.240 --> 1:20:09.719 at best they can plug a hole in a leaky bucket, 1:20:09.840 --> 1:20:11.880 and it's good when they do that. Right, if one 1:20:11.960 --> 1:20:15.200 less person starves, that's good. It doesn't mean they don't 1:20:15.200 --> 1:20:18.880 have to be perfect to help, but they don't get 1:20:18.920 --> 1:20:22.160 to be exemptive from criticism because they're helping, right, Like 1:20:22.240 --> 1:20:23.960 World's Central Kitchen didn't want to help us at the 1:20:24.000 --> 1:20:26.599 border in Hucumber. My friends reached out. They didn't want 1:20:26.640 --> 1:20:28.679 to do that. Yeah, I don't think you should expect 1:20:29.479 --> 1:20:32.519 endios to share your your radical politics. It doesn't mean 1:20:32.520 --> 1:20:34.080 that they can't do harm reduction, and it doesn't mean 1:20:34.120 --> 1:20:37.000 that when they are doing harm reduction, they sometimes need 1:20:37.040 --> 1:20:40.000 your money, and in the such situations where this is happening, 1:20:40.200 --> 1:20:41.760 you should give it to them if you can't help 1:20:41.800 --> 1:20:46.160 more directly. Right, But like you know, if we look 1:20:46.200 --> 1:20:49.200 at their communications, we do see them calling for a 1:20:49.240 --> 1:20:52.320 cease fire, which is about what you can expect from 1:20:52.320 --> 1:20:55.000 an NGO, you know, we actually it appears that we 1:20:55.040 --> 1:20:57.920 see Hosse Andrews calling for a ceasefire, and we see 1:20:57.920 --> 1:21:00.799 World Central Kitchen saying Jsse andrew is for a ceasefire, 1:21:01.520 --> 1:21:03.120 which I don't quite know why they don't just say 1:21:03.120 --> 1:21:04.800 we are calling for a ceasefire. They didn't sign that 1:21:04.840 --> 1:21:06.400 document with the other rango. It's like that. I don't 1:21:06.400 --> 1:21:09.040 know if they're trying to play like have it both ways. 1:21:09.080 --> 1:21:12.880 I don't know. I don't I'm not privy to those conversations. Right, 1:21:12.960 --> 1:21:15.520 they didn't sort of wholeheartedly say this is the genocide 1:21:16.120 --> 1:21:18.320 but they have to get permission for Israel to do stuff. 1:21:19.000 --> 1:21:22.080 I mean, now they're saying it, but after the Trustee 1:21:22.120 --> 1:21:24.760 that happened, the whole world is watching, right, Not that 1:21:24.800 --> 1:21:26.719 the whole world shouldn't have been watching from the start, 1:21:27.680 --> 1:21:31.519 but I don't think enos are ever going to be 1:21:31.640 --> 1:21:33.360 you know, it's radical that there's people on the internet 1:21:33.439 --> 1:21:35.320 want them for They're also they're doing stuff and people 1:21:35.360 --> 1:21:38.240 on the internet aren't, so you know, we have to 1:21:38.240 --> 1:21:41.000 respect that. And I don't want any of this to 1:21:42.080 --> 1:21:47.599 take away from the fact that some people from all 1:21:47.600 --> 1:21:51.160 over the world, right from Europe, from Australia, from the 1:21:51.280 --> 1:21:56.599 United States, have died feeding people who need to be fed, 1:21:56.640 --> 1:22:01.280 because that's the most any of us can give, is 1:22:01.360 --> 1:22:04.719 our lives, right, And so I don't for a minute 1:22:04.760 --> 1:22:08.559 want any of this to detract from the sacrifice they made. 1:22:09.360 --> 1:22:12.479 No should their sacrifice be held in any higher regard 1:22:12.520 --> 1:22:14.880 than the sacrifice made by hundreds, if not thousands of 1:22:14.880 --> 1:22:18.040 Palestinian aid workers, right, people working for the Palestinian re Crescent, 1:22:19.040 --> 1:22:24.080 a Palestinian even the Palestinian people working for International NGOs right, 1:22:24.200 --> 1:22:27.439 or the United Nations people who have been killed, right, 1:22:28.920 --> 1:22:31.800 None of the sacrifices it should be ignored or ound 1:22:31.880 --> 1:22:34.000 mind because if people are certainly given a lot more 1:22:34.000 --> 1:22:36.559 than I have, I don't have any right to say that. 1:22:37.479 --> 1:22:41.080 I think, yeah, this organ it changes communications, right. I 1:22:41.080 --> 1:22:44.120 think they've obviously realized that there is no nicely nicely 1:22:44.240 --> 1:22:46.680 about this, like you have to call a spade a 1:22:46.680 --> 1:22:49.400 space when it comes to what's happening in Gaza, which 1:22:49.439 --> 1:22:52.960 is a deliberate and targeted campt to kill civilians, thousands 1:22:53.000 --> 1:22:56.519 and tens of thousands of children even And I think 1:22:57.760 --> 1:23:01.000 until we move the conversation onto where that is being 1:23:01.080 --> 1:23:04.599 called by its name, that is to say, genocide, then 1:23:05.280 --> 1:23:07.280 I don't think we'll see that the reactions that we need, 1:23:07.320 --> 1:23:09.360 and I think they appear to have reflected on that. 1:23:09.479 --> 1:23:12.679 I wish they've got there sooner, but they're there now, 1:23:13.320 --> 1:23:16.080 and I'm sorry that it took these people's lives to 1:23:16.160 --> 1:23:18.320 get there. But what I see from them is what 1:23:18.360 --> 1:23:20.559 I see from other NGOs. It's not they're not certainly 1:23:20.640 --> 1:23:23.000 not uniquely bad. In fact, they are better than very 1:23:23.000 --> 1:23:25.439 many indios. And they were there when other people weren't, 1:23:25.479 --> 1:23:27.760 and they're delivering food when other people weren't, So I 1:23:27.760 --> 1:23:31.639 don't want, I don't want to distract from that. But yeah, 1:23:31.640 --> 1:23:34.800 they're this messaging, this internal conduct, like there's somebody these 1:23:34.840 --> 1:23:38.360 internal messages, they are traveling and like again, it's just 1:23:38.360 --> 1:23:41.200 what i'd expect from any other NGO, whereas I've seen 1:23:41.200 --> 1:23:42.840 these guys do things in many ways sort of better 1:23:42.880 --> 1:23:46.000 than other angios, but none if that messaging takes away 1:23:46.000 --> 1:23:48.800 from these people giving their lives, and I don't want 1:23:48.840 --> 1:23:49.400 to suggest that. 1:23:50.600 --> 1:23:52.320 I think the most telling thing is that they're making 1:23:52.360 --> 1:23:55.200 the biases of their the top people that work for 1:23:55.240 --> 1:23:58.000 this company very evident. And the article goes into Linda 1:23:58.080 --> 1:24:01.559 Roth's background and her pro Israeli stances in the past, 1:24:02.040 --> 1:24:04.880 and the fact that in all the outwardly facing materials 1:24:05.200 --> 1:24:08.360 about Gaza, it was very typical to change the word 1:24:08.400 --> 1:24:11.519 siege to conflict or to question the blockades. It talks 1:24:11.560 --> 1:24:14.840 about how the people at the very top their biases 1:24:14.920 --> 1:24:17.280 just seeped through and the people that were actually working 1:24:17.280 --> 1:24:20.559 for the organization were in disagreement with this. I think 1:24:20.600 --> 1:24:22.960 the last thing I want to read from this article 1:24:23.680 --> 1:24:27.639 just really highlights that WCK did not protect the people 1:24:27.680 --> 1:24:31.479 that worked for them. It says, save the possibility of 1:24:31.560 --> 1:24:35.599 genuine and competence, the WCK leadership's decisions were not made 1:24:35.600 --> 1:24:39.559 to maintain neutrality, did not increase effectiveness, and as April 1:24:39.560 --> 1:24:43.800 first demonstrated, did not protect personnel. The leadership's failure to 1:24:43.880 --> 1:24:47.519 honestly portray the dire reality in Gaza and lack of 1:24:47.560 --> 1:24:50.360 an attempt to influence the genocide in Gaza via its 1:24:50.360 --> 1:24:53.880 status and close ties to the Bien administration means that 1:24:53.920 --> 1:24:57.759 they bear responsibility for its outcomes. Let no one say 1:24:58.000 --> 1:25:01.400 they did everything they could. And this is obviously talking 1:25:01.439 --> 1:25:04.920 about the leadership versus the personnel. And then he goes 1:25:04.960 --> 1:25:07.080 on to close the article saying that his experience is 1:25:07.080 --> 1:25:10.080 one experience and when he resigned there was a palpable, 1:25:10.120 --> 1:25:14.400 widespread atmosphere of disappointment among the staff and employees. And 1:25:14.479 --> 1:25:18.600 he ends with just calling on current and former WCK employees, contractors, 1:25:18.600 --> 1:25:21.840 and volunteers to publicly share their stories as well in 1:25:21.920 --> 1:25:24.280 order to force accountability and change. 1:25:25.120 --> 1:25:27.920 Yeah, okay, if you work for a Central Kitchen, you 1:25:27.960 --> 1:25:31.680 can message us hate to hear your stories that. 1:25:32.439 --> 1:25:35.799 Yeah, yeah, we wanted to make sure that this perspective 1:25:35.960 --> 1:25:39.799 was shared. And again the article will be in the description, 1:25:39.920 --> 1:25:42.960 so please give it a good read. But yeah, that 1:25:43.200 --> 1:26:13.280 is the episode. Thanks for listening, Three pals done. 1:26:00.120 --> 1:26:04.799 Welcome back to It could Happen here a podcast about 1:26:04.840 --> 1:26:08.080 things falling apart. And when things fall apart, one of 1:26:08.080 --> 1:26:09.840 the things that happens is you get a bunch of 1:26:10.040 --> 1:26:12.679 a lot of opportunities for a lot of weird little guys, 1:26:12.760 --> 1:26:14.880 a lot of a lot of Nazis and other kinds 1:26:14.880 --> 1:26:17.719 of scums start, you know, sliding up to the surface 1:26:17.920 --> 1:26:21.000 in the hopes that they can get some of the sweet, 1:26:21.040 --> 1:26:25.040 sweet oxygen of collapse. And that's why we've brought onto 1:26:25.040 --> 1:26:27.920 the program and are bringing into the network our good 1:26:27.920 --> 1:26:32.559 friend Molly Conger for a little recurrence series. I like 1:26:32.640 --> 1:26:36.160 to call look who's stalking? That was the That was 1:26:36.240 --> 1:26:38.519 the stocking joke. I'm wanted to open the episode with 1:26:38.640 --> 1:26:39.400 my own journeys. 1:26:39.520 --> 1:26:42.439 I'm not stalking anyone. I would never do that. That 1:26:42.640 --> 1:26:44.480 is a crime. This is reporting. 1:26:46.040 --> 1:26:49.720 It is reporting, and the line between reporting and stalking always. 1:26:49.360 --> 1:26:57.240 Clear, you know. I think it's it's on the publication. Yeah, yeah, so, Robert, 1:26:57.320 --> 1:27:00.360 Today's topic is such a perfect mash up of so 1:27:00.479 --> 1:27:03.160 many of my favorite things. It couldn't be more my 1:27:03.280 --> 1:27:05.800 speed unless this whole story took place on a Wiener 1:27:05.840 --> 1:27:06.400 dog ranch. 1:27:06.600 --> 1:27:08.080 Right. Yeah. 1:27:08.120 --> 1:27:10.880 This story has city council meetings that got rowdy. It 1:27:10.920 --> 1:27:13.080 has unite the right attendee getting docks. It has the 1:27:13.120 --> 1:27:15.559 internal calms of a hate group getting leaked. It has 1:27:15.680 --> 1:27:18.040 regular ass people putting their foot down about hate in 1:27:18.080 --> 1:27:21.120 their town. It is a year's long arc of one 1:27:21.120 --> 1:27:25.320 man's journey from fucking around to finding out his evolution, 1:27:25.520 --> 1:27:29.479 from chanting you will not replace us to getting replaced 1:27:29.520 --> 1:27:33.360 at the ballot box. This is the story of Enid, Oklahoma, 1:27:33.680 --> 1:27:37.600 Ward one City Commissioner Judson Gannon Blevins. 1:27:38.200 --> 1:27:41.320 Oh my god, ah, we're going back to my old home. 1:27:42.600 --> 1:27:45.240 That's why you spent some time in Oklahoma as a kid. 1:27:45.360 --> 1:27:48.080 So jud Levins was raised in the town of en 1:27:48.120 --> 1:27:51.679 in Oklahoma, and the listener, you'd be forgiven for thinking 1:27:51.720 --> 1:27:53.880 this is the story of a small town. And I'll 1:27:53.920 --> 1:27:56.519 be honest, I did. I'd never heard of Enid, but 1:27:56.760 --> 1:27:58.160 you grew up in the area. Do you have any 1:27:58.200 --> 1:28:01.760 sort of pre existing notions of gar Field County? Uh? 1:28:01.840 --> 1:28:05.880 Yeah, I mean Enid was like a bigger play. I 1:28:05.880 --> 1:28:07.960 grew up in Ida Bell, which was really out in 1:28:08.000 --> 1:28:11.960 the sticks, so kind of everywhere was more civilization than 1:28:12.000 --> 1:28:15.439 Ida Bell, but Enid certainly was, although not much. No 1:28:15.479 --> 1:28:18.040 one would no one would accuse it of much civilization. 1:28:18.840 --> 1:28:22.320 It is apparently the ninth largest city in Oklahoma, which 1:28:22.400 --> 1:28:24.080 was surprising to me. It's an hour and a half 1:28:24.120 --> 1:28:28.640 outside of Oklahoma City, seventy six percent white, sixty percent Republican, 1:28:29.080 --> 1:28:31.799 and according to a twenty twenty one article on Yahoo 1:28:31.840 --> 1:28:34.920 News that reads like it was written by an intoxicated chatbot, 1:28:35.240 --> 1:28:37.640 it is ranked one of the most conservative cities in 1:28:37.680 --> 1:28:38.160 the country. 1:28:38.760 --> 1:28:42.679 Yeah, that all scans for Enid, Jared, Now that scans 1:28:42.720 --> 1:28:45.400 for a lot of cities in Oklahoma, mind you. 1:28:45.760 --> 1:28:48.920 Right, They could have named any of them. Yeah, but 1:28:48.960 --> 1:28:51.080 it has a population of about fifty thousand, which is 1:28:51.080 --> 1:28:55.080 actually the same size as Charlottesville, my hometown and a 1:28:55.160 --> 1:28:58.320 city that Johnson Blevens happened to visit. In the summer 1:28:58.360 --> 1:29:01.680 of twenty seventeen eighteen, the former US Marine moved back 1:29:01.680 --> 1:29:03.960 to his hometown to work at his father's roofing business. 1:29:04.600 --> 1:29:07.599 In twenty nineteen, he was publicly identified as a regional 1:29:07.680 --> 1:29:11.679 leader in a white supremacist organization, and in twenty twenty 1:29:11.720 --> 1:29:14.480 two he announced he was running for office. 1:29:15.160 --> 1:29:19.559 I mean that all that's a very Oklahoma politician route. 1:29:19.640 --> 1:29:22.200 It's also like a not a white like, from from 1:29:22.320 --> 1:29:26.400 roofing to white supremacy, not a wildly uncommon route for 1:29:26.479 --> 1:29:27.840 people to take in Oklahoma. 1:29:28.000 --> 1:29:29.000 Now he's still doing both. 1:29:29.479 --> 1:29:29.880 Oh good. 1:29:29.880 --> 1:29:31.479 I mean, you never want to give up on your 1:29:31.560 --> 1:29:33.920 passion for roofing. That would have made me sad. 1:29:34.080 --> 1:29:36.080 Although some of his supporters have pointed out that he 1:29:36.200 --> 1:29:38.759 hires lots of non white people to do manual labor, 1:29:38.800 --> 1:29:39.920 so how could he be racist? 1:29:40.320 --> 1:29:41.479 Yeah, I mean, you don't want to get up on 1:29:41.479 --> 1:29:45.920 those roofs yourself. That's dangerous, Czarr. Yeah, it's hot out, Yeah, 1:29:46.040 --> 1:29:47.639 this is all pretty Oklahoma so far. 1:29:48.680 --> 1:29:52.160 On February fourteenth, twenty twenty three, jud Levins narrowly won 1:29:52.200 --> 1:29:54.759 a seat on the Eden City Council, defeating the incumbent 1:29:54.800 --> 1:29:58.360 by just thirty six votes. His past ties the now 1:29:58.400 --> 1:30:02.720 defunct white supremacist group Europa were no secret. Of course, 1:30:02.760 --> 1:30:05.680 by twenty twenty three, Identity Europa didn't exist anymore. So 1:30:05.680 --> 1:30:07.160 I don't blame you if you don't have a clear 1:30:07.240 --> 1:30:09.760 memory of exactly what kind of Nazi group they were. 1:30:09.840 --> 1:30:11.639 And I want to make it very clear. I don't 1:30:11.640 --> 1:30:14.400 want time, distance and white polo shirts to soften this. 1:30:14.960 --> 1:30:17.599 Identity Europa was a neo Nazi organization. 1:30:17.760 --> 1:30:20.920 Oh yeah. They were also just like the most infiltrated 1:30:20.960 --> 1:30:24.280 group of the Trump era. Like of all the Nazi 1:30:24.360 --> 1:30:25.920 orgs in the Trump era, I feel like they were 1:30:25.920 --> 1:30:28.839 the one where every week someone else got inside their coms. 1:30:30.600 --> 1:30:33.680 Well, I guess Bluvin's maybe part to blame for that 1:30:33.760 --> 1:30:35.320 as the regional coordinator. 1:30:35.800 --> 1:30:37.880 Oh good, so he was doing a great job. 1:30:38.520 --> 1:30:40.960 But Identity Europa was modeled after the far right French 1:30:41.000 --> 1:30:44.240 identitarian movement and sought the creation of a white ethno state. 1:30:45.080 --> 1:30:47.519 You will not replace us, chance you remember from Unite 1:30:47.520 --> 1:30:50.200 the Right were actually popularized by Identity Europa at their 1:30:50.320 --> 1:30:53.680 rallies earlier that year, and, according to testimony from a 1:30:53.680 --> 1:30:57.799 former girlfriend, one time Identity Euroopa leader Elliot Klein considered 1:30:57.880 --> 1:31:02.960 himself quote an unironic exterminationist, and he had violent fantasies 1:31:03.000 --> 1:31:07.240 about killing Jewish people himself. So it's not just guys 1:31:07.240 --> 1:31:08.040 hanging out right. 1:31:08.520 --> 1:31:08.760 No. 1:31:09.439 --> 1:31:13.360 Identity Europa was founded in twenty sixteen by Nathan Dimigo, 1:31:13.439 --> 1:31:16.280 a former marine who went to prison after drunkenly pulling 1:31:16.320 --> 1:31:19.720 a gun on a cab driver for quote looking iraqi. 1:31:20.520 --> 1:31:24.920 Well that gets at least he's honest. 1:31:26.000 --> 1:31:28.519 But while he was doing his time, he read David 1:31:28.600 --> 1:31:29.960 Duke's autobiography. 1:31:31.200 --> 1:31:32.760 Oh and he. 1:31:33.160 --> 1:31:35.439 Had an awakening, right, he read My Awakening and he 1:31:35.479 --> 1:31:37.880 had an awakening in prison. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, 1:31:37.960 --> 1:31:39.479 you go to prison for a hay crime, you read 1:31:39.479 --> 1:31:41.320 a little David Duke, you get some ideas. 1:31:43.400 --> 1:31:47.160 Man, it it's not a good book. Like that's my 1:31:47.240 --> 1:31:51.240 thing about having David Duke's autobiography be like your life 1:31:51.360 --> 1:31:54.439 changing event, is it? It's not even a good book, right, 1:31:54.479 --> 1:31:57.360 which I guess neither was mind comp but I feel 1:31:57.360 --> 1:31:59.360 like everyone's lying about that one. 1:32:00.000 --> 1:32:02.320 According to some this is so off the beaten path here, 1:32:02.360 --> 1:32:04.559 this is I have to say it. According to some 1:32:05.560 --> 1:32:09.200 payments that came out in a divorce proceeding, David Duke 1:32:09.280 --> 1:32:13.400 made payments to Kevin Strome for ghostwriting it. Kevin Strom 1:32:13.640 --> 1:32:16.800 is the pedophile who actually said that thing that people 1:32:16.800 --> 1:32:18.479 think full terror said about the Jews. 1:32:19.439 --> 1:32:23.280 Oh cool, yeah great. 1:32:24.200 --> 1:32:26.320 So just something to think about when you're reading David 1:32:26.360 --> 1:32:28.120 Duke's autobiography in prison. 1:32:28.240 --> 1:32:31.680 I guess, I mean, I guess I had wondered what 1:32:31.840 --> 1:32:34.720 happens to pedophiles, like when they're back out in the world, like, 1:32:34.760 --> 1:32:35.040 how do. 1:32:35.000 --> 1:32:39.680 Your wife now? No that was before that was yeah, no, 1:32:39.720 --> 1:32:40.800 he's got a kid now, so. 1:32:41.400 --> 1:32:47.040 Oh what, No, he shouldn't do that. Okay, great, not 1:32:47.160 --> 1:32:48.479 a loved to live near a school. But I guess 1:32:48.520 --> 1:32:51.400 they can't stop you from procreating. We should evaluate some 1:32:51.479 --> 1:32:52.120 of that. I don't know. 1:32:52.760 --> 1:32:56.719 Anyway, back to our friend Nate, right, So, Nathan Amigo 1:32:56.960 --> 1:32:59.240 gets out of prison, makes his own hate group. You 1:32:59.280 --> 1:33:01.880 may also remember him as the guy who bravely beat 1:33:01.920 --> 1:33:03.960 the shit out of a ninety five pound woman at 1:33:04.000 --> 1:33:07.240 the rally in Berkeley in April of twenty seventeen. Oh yeah, 1:33:07.439 --> 1:33:09.799 and they memed the hell out of that. They squeezed 1:33:09.800 --> 1:33:11.439 it for all it was worth. That they used that 1:33:11.479 --> 1:33:14.160 image of him beating that woman in the street for 1:33:14.280 --> 1:33:18.560 promotion and recruitment. Dimigo himself touted a spike in membership applications, 1:33:18.560 --> 1:33:21.799 which he attributed to the popularity of the video. Identity 1:33:21.840 --> 1:33:24.680 Europa was heavily involved in the Summer of Hate, that 1:33:24.800 --> 1:33:27.200 rash of violent white supremacist rallies across the country in 1:33:27.240 --> 1:33:30.040 twenty seventeen. They were instrumental in planning as Unite the 1:33:30.080 --> 1:33:30.639 Right rally. 1:33:31.479 --> 1:33:32.280 But when the. 1:33:32.200 --> 1:33:35.080 Group's discord server was leaked in March of twenty nineteen 1:33:35.120 --> 1:33:38.320 and published in full by Unicorn Riot, their leader at 1:33:38.320 --> 1:33:41.479 the time, Patrick Casey, quickly announced a rebrand, Identity Europa 1:33:41.560 --> 1:33:44.320 is no more. They were the American Identity Movement now, 1:33:44.880 --> 1:33:47.759 much to the displeasure of the American Indian Movement, whose 1:33:47.800 --> 1:33:51.080 acronym they stole. But the rebrand was not successful and 1:33:51.120 --> 1:33:54.479 the group died out completely in twenty twenty, and Casey 1:33:54.520 --> 1:33:56.760 tried to pretend the rebrand wasn't just an attempt to 1:33:56.840 --> 1:33:59.160 escape the fallout of the leak, but it really was 1:33:59.200 --> 1:34:01.920 the leak that killed Identity Europa. At least seven active 1:34:01.960 --> 1:34:04.639 duty military members were identified in the league. A school 1:34:04.680 --> 1:34:07.280 resource officer at a high school in Virginia was suspended, 1:34:07.640 --> 1:34:10.840 a Minnesota National Guardsman was recalled from basic training. So 1:34:10.920 --> 1:34:13.160 jud Levins was just one of dozens of members of 1:34:13.200 --> 1:34:16.400 the group to be identified in those chatlogs. The work 1:34:16.400 --> 1:34:18.880 of anti fascist researchers who identified Blevins and the leak 1:34:19.000 --> 1:34:21.880 chats was corroborated and published in an article on right 1:34:21.880 --> 1:34:25.160 wing Watch by Jared Hult within weeks, and it's about 1:34:25.200 --> 1:34:26.880 as solid as an idea as you could hope for 1:34:26.920 --> 1:34:29.920 from a chatlog, or, depending on your position, the kind 1:34:29.960 --> 1:34:33.760 of idea you really don't want. A user called Conway 1:34:33.960 --> 1:34:37.960 was Identity Europa's regional coordinator for Oklahoma. He recruited and 1:34:38.040 --> 1:34:41.919 vetted new members, organized outings for banner drops and social events, 1:34:42.280 --> 1:34:45.040 and frequently posted pictures of the white supremacist propaganda he'd 1:34:45.080 --> 1:34:47.360 been putting up, encouraging others to do the same, and 1:34:47.479 --> 1:34:50.040 offering tips on how to create more effective visuals for 1:34:50.040 --> 1:34:54.240 the group's online accounts. In over eleven hundred posts over 1:34:54.280 --> 1:34:57.679 a nearly two year period, he left a lot of clues. 1:34:58.400 --> 1:35:01.799 He posted a link to an article in his hometown paper, 1:35:02.160 --> 1:35:04.600 the Enid News and Eagle. He posted a photo of 1:35:04.640 --> 1:35:07.920 a relative's baby, details about his parents' lineage, his plans 1:35:07.920 --> 1:35:10.160 to move home to work for his father's business, and 1:35:10.200 --> 1:35:11.719 in the lead up to the Unite the Right rally, 1:35:11.760 --> 1:35:14.040 he excitedly shared the discord that he would be carrying 1:35:14.080 --> 1:35:17.280 the original flag of the state of Oklahoma, a red 1:35:17.320 --> 1:35:20.280 rectangle with the number forty six inside of a white star, 1:35:21.040 --> 1:35:24.479 and photos from the rally show just one man carrying 1:35:24.479 --> 1:35:27.120 that distinctive flag that was designed by a member of 1:35:27.160 --> 1:35:30.880 the Daughters of the Confederacy, jud Levins. As he grew 1:35:30.880 --> 1:35:33.960 into his role as regional coordinator for Identity Europa, he 1:35:34.040 --> 1:35:37.479 coordinated member meetups, getting several guys from Oklahoma to drive 1:35:37.520 --> 1:35:40.719 down to Texas for a get together. Conway posted about 1:35:40.720 --> 1:35:44.080 the meetup, and photos posted by other attendees show Blevins 1:35:44.200 --> 1:35:47.080 standing shoulder to shoulder with other members holding a large 1:35:47.080 --> 1:35:51.600 Identity Europa banner. Conway even posted about his appearance on 1:35:51.600 --> 1:35:54.600 a twenty eighteen episode of Identity Europa's podcast, where he 1:35:54.640 --> 1:35:57.840 emphasized the importance of staying in the You will not 1:35:57.920 --> 1:36:01.040 replace us mindset. The time he announced his run for 1:36:01.040 --> 1:36:03.360 office in twenty twenty two, it had been over three 1:36:03.479 --> 1:36:05.840 years since he'd been out at as Conway, the Hate 1:36:05.840 --> 1:36:07.880 Group member who attended the Unite the Right rally. 1:36:08.400 --> 1:36:11.599 And you could see why he would think it would work, right, 1:36:11.680 --> 1:36:16.799 because that you will not replace us thing. It's become 1:36:16.960 --> 1:36:22.440 like the mainstream Republican politics, right like this this ideology 1:36:22.479 --> 1:36:25.720 has at least one in the Republican Party, but it's 1:36:25.760 --> 1:36:29.960 also one divorced from these guys because even they are like, 1:36:30.000 --> 1:36:34.840 they're too toxic for even the modern Republicans. Like it's remarkable, 1:36:34.880 --> 1:36:37.160 but I also get why he thought this would work. 1:36:38.160 --> 1:36:41.240 And I think, I mean, I don't know what his 1:36:41.479 --> 1:36:44.880 connection remained to other members of IE after it dissolved, 1:36:44.920 --> 1:36:47.760 but towards the end of it, as it was dying, right, 1:36:48.040 --> 1:36:51.519 So under Elliott Klein, you know, Klein wanted to make 1:36:51.520 --> 1:36:53.840 a militia for Richard Spencer. He wanted to you know, 1:36:53.960 --> 1:36:56.719 build IE into a fighting force. But under Patrick Casey, 1:36:56.800 --> 1:36:59.840 they sort of moved back towards we should be trying 1:36:59.880 --> 1:37:04.120 to influence inside of politics. We should be going to 1:37:04.400 --> 1:37:09.120 colleges and getting you know, conservative students to become more base. Right, 1:37:09.120 --> 1:37:12.800 so this is a rational course of conduct, I think 1:37:12.880 --> 1:37:16.479 for where he was in twenty nineteen when Identity Europa died. 1:37:17.040 --> 1:37:19.760 But in any case, by twenty twenty two, anybody in 1:37:19.960 --> 1:37:23.240 Enid you could read his posts praising Hitler and celebrating 1:37:23.280 --> 1:37:25.880 Identity Europa for striking fear into the heart of the 1:37:26.000 --> 1:37:27.280 jew his words. 1:37:27.640 --> 1:37:27.800 You know. 1:37:27.920 --> 1:37:30.120 You could see pictures of him at Unite the Right, 1:37:30.280 --> 1:37:32.320 both on the morning of the twelfth in the park 1:37:32.520 --> 1:37:34.320 and the evening of the eleventh with a torch. You 1:37:34.360 --> 1:37:37.080 could see pictures of him going to Texas for Ie meetups. 1:37:37.400 --> 1:37:39.680 You could see the dozens and dozens of photos he 1:37:39.760 --> 1:37:42.840 posted in the discord of Nazi posters and stickers he 1:37:42.840 --> 1:37:45.439 had put up on telephone polls and college bulletin boards 1:37:45.479 --> 1:37:48.360 across Oklahoma, and the posts where he reveled in the 1:37:48.360 --> 1:37:52.040 media coverage of the recruitment materials he left inside library books. 1:37:53.600 --> 1:37:56.479 His hometown newspaper, the Enid News and Eagle, ran an 1:37:56.520 --> 1:38:00.320 article about the allegations, which he never denied. A month 1:38:00.360 --> 1:38:03.120 before the election, and without ever having to give a 1:38:03.120 --> 1:38:07.160 straight answer on the issue, he won, and that could 1:38:07.160 --> 1:38:09.080 have been the end of the story. Right, You know, 1:38:09.120 --> 1:38:10.880 we've seen this trend in the last few years of 1:38:10.920 --> 1:38:13.840 these radical right wing elements trying to melt into the 1:38:13.880 --> 1:38:16.880 mainstream Republican party. You know, we've got these horrible little 1:38:16.880 --> 1:38:20.360 gropers working in congressional staff positions, and you know nazis 1:38:20.400 --> 1:38:23.639 going to spack and not getting ejected. They're getting out 1:38:23.640 --> 1:38:26.000 of the streets and into the meeting rooms. 1:38:26.320 --> 1:38:26.559 Yeah. 1:38:26.880 --> 1:38:29.559 An account tied to blevins that he recently for the 1:38:29.560 --> 1:38:31.320 first time denied this was him. 1:38:31.800 --> 1:38:32.200 It's him. 1:38:32.240 --> 1:38:35.000 This has been widely reported. It was a Twitter account 1:38:35.040 --> 1:38:40.960 called at Abolish Journalism posted in twenty nineteen quote sts 1:38:41.640 --> 1:38:44.800 I agree with the argument GOP cannot be changed from 1:38:44.840 --> 1:38:48.400 the bottom up. However, I do not believe in discouraging 1:38:48.479 --> 1:38:51.760 our guys from getting elected into smaller offices such as 1:38:51.760 --> 1:38:56.480 city council, county commissioner, or even state legislators. Basically positions 1:38:56.479 --> 1:39:00.760 where one can fly under the radar yet still be effective. 1:39:01.600 --> 1:39:04.360 And that's what this is, right. This isn't a guy 1:39:04.400 --> 1:39:07.400 who got out of White Nationals organizing and in an 1:39:07.479 --> 1:39:11.840 unrelated fashion, became a local politician. No, he said years 1:39:11.840 --> 1:39:13.840 before he did this that this was a good idea 1:39:13.920 --> 1:39:16.240 that he had. You know, he never said I renounced 1:39:16.280 --> 1:39:18.519 my previous actions and beliefs. I regret bringing an active 1:39:18.520 --> 1:39:21.559 recruiter for a hate group. He just changed the way 1:39:21.600 --> 1:39:24.800 he was doing it. And he said countless opportunities to 1:39:24.840 --> 1:39:27.120 be clear about what he believes today and whether that's 1:39:27.160 --> 1:39:29.680 different from the beliefs he espoused between twenty seventeen and 1:39:29.680 --> 1:39:33.360 twenty nineteen, and he won't. He won't say I no 1:39:33.400 --> 1:39:35.559 longer identify with the posts I made when I was 1:39:35.680 --> 1:39:39.800 enthusiastically posting the fourteen words. And that's probably because he 1:39:39.840 --> 1:39:41.960 just found a better way to do it. But there 1:39:41.960 --> 1:39:45.120 were people in Enid, Oklahoma who saw right through that. 1:39:45.800 --> 1:39:48.120 Yeah, this is where the story takes a turn that like, 1:39:49.200 --> 1:39:52.360 I don't know, it made me hopeful because the first 1:39:52.360 --> 1:39:57.000 time I ever met a klansman was, you know, in Oklahoma. 1:39:57.320 --> 1:39:59.120 It was the dad of a friend of mine. Like 1:39:59.200 --> 1:40:02.200 he like that, this kid bragged about it, and I 1:40:02.240 --> 1:40:03.880 didn't know what a klansman was. And I had to 1:40:03.920 --> 1:40:06.760 go to my parents and like be like, hey, so 1:40:07.120 --> 1:40:09.519 you know so and so said this about his dad. 1:40:09.600 --> 1:40:11.880 What does that mean? And my mom was just like, well, 1:40:11.880 --> 1:40:14.200 you're not allowed to go to his house anymore. That's 1:40:14.240 --> 1:40:17.000 what that means, Juxes. 1:40:18.600 --> 1:40:19.439 Jesus Christ. 1:40:19.720 --> 1:40:22.240 If this like, if this guy had like, if shit 1:40:22.280 --> 1:40:24.400 had gone well for him, I guess that would have 1:40:24.439 --> 1:40:27.200 been my assumption. But that's that was my assumption based 1:40:27.240 --> 1:40:31.080 on me not giving a fair shake to Enid, Oklahoma, Right. 1:40:31.160 --> 1:40:33.800 I think that's you know what's so remarkable about this 1:40:33.880 --> 1:40:37.439 story is people didn't think Oklahoma could do it. But 1:40:37.520 --> 1:40:41.679 you know who can accomplish everything they set out to do? 1:40:42.320 --> 1:40:46.120 Uh huh, that's right, these sponsors, all of whom are 1:40:46.160 --> 1:40:59.479 available in Enid, Oklahoma, and we're back. 1:41:00.880 --> 1:41:03.280 Okay, alrighty, so I'm. 1:41:03.120 --> 1:41:04.920 Happy to hear. Yeah. The next part of this. 1:41:05.720 --> 1:41:08.800 Levins took office in May of twenty twenty three. Local 1:41:08.840 --> 1:41:13.000 election law requires a six month wait between being sworn 1:41:13.040 --> 1:41:17.160 in and when a recall attempt can be initiated, but 1:41:17.160 --> 1:41:20.320 the residents who opposed Levins didn't wait quietly. A group 1:41:20.360 --> 1:41:23.160 called the Enid Social Justice Committee protested his swearing in, 1:41:23.640 --> 1:41:27.240 with some protesters holding posters bearing a photo of Blevins 1:41:27.600 --> 1:41:31.080 holding a torch at the August eleven, twenty seventeen Nazi 1:41:31.120 --> 1:41:35.400 march at the University of Virginia. And now this I 1:41:35.760 --> 1:41:37.360 didn't even think about it until I was writing this 1:41:37.520 --> 1:41:40.720 that what an incredible coincidence of timing. Right, So May 1:41:40.800 --> 1:41:44.320 twenty twenty three, he's being sworn into office. It was 1:41:44.520 --> 1:41:47.240 just I think maybe two weeks before he was sworn 1:41:47.280 --> 1:41:51.160 in that the first indictment was unsealed against the guys 1:41:51.200 --> 1:41:54.400 who are now facing felony charges for participating in that 1:41:54.439 --> 1:41:56.920 torch march. Right, so it was we did an episode 1:41:56.960 --> 1:41:59.400 on this a little bit ago. But if you're not 1:41:59.439 --> 1:42:02.439 familiar that the guys who marched in that torch march 1:42:02.479 --> 1:42:05.080 at Eva in twenty seventeen, some of them are now 1:42:05.120 --> 1:42:08.200 being charged with a felony under Virginia law for burning 1:42:08.240 --> 1:42:10.599 an object with intent to intimidate. It's obviously a sort 1:42:10.600 --> 1:42:13.280 of a law aimed at the Klan, right, sort of 1:42:13.280 --> 1:42:15.920 a crossburning type law. But they were burning, they have 1:42:16.000 --> 1:42:18.640 these burning objects, and they were menacing people. It was 1:42:18.720 --> 1:42:22.160 racially motivated. So they're being charged with this felony for 1:42:22.200 --> 1:42:23.000 burning an object. 1:42:23.720 --> 1:42:26.840 It does feel like that's, yeah, a pretty good fit. 1:42:27.439 --> 1:42:29.320 But so right as he's being sworn in, you know, 1:42:29.360 --> 1:42:31.719 these people are protesting his swearing in with this photo 1:42:31.800 --> 1:42:35.320 of him with the torch and a couple guys just 1:42:35.439 --> 1:42:39.439 showed up in jail here in Charlottesville on that charge. 1:42:39.479 --> 1:42:42.280 So it's it's just a remarkable cognitive dissonance, right to 1:42:42.360 --> 1:42:45.160 see these people. Some of his supporters in Enid downplaying 1:42:45.160 --> 1:42:49.360 the seriousness or even outright denying that Levin's attended this rally, 1:42:50.280 --> 1:42:52.439 But the guys he was standing next to that day 1:42:52.560 --> 1:42:55.599 are pleading guilty to felonies. You know, he's up there 1:42:55.680 --> 1:42:58.719 voting on resolutions and passing ordinances about you know, storm 1:42:58.800 --> 1:43:00.760 water management or whatever. Or I think one of his 1:43:01.479 --> 1:43:04.599 accomplishments in office was getting a Texas roadhouse in Enid. 1:43:05.240 --> 1:43:07.920 First off, you shouldn't be proud of having a Texas 1:43:08.000 --> 1:43:12.280 roadhouse anywhere as a my job used to it might 1:43:12.320 --> 1:43:12.960 have been a Sizzler. 1:43:13.000 --> 1:43:14.679 I can't remember something like that. 1:43:15.000 --> 1:43:17.360 I would be much more excited for a Sizzler than 1:43:17.360 --> 1:43:19.879 a Texas fucking roadhouse, I'll say that much. 1:43:20.120 --> 1:43:23.120 But you know he's up there getting a you know, 1:43:23.520 --> 1:43:26.880 affordable chain steak restaurant in Edid. But there's a non 1:43:27.000 --> 1:43:29.400 zero chance that he could be arrested at any time 1:43:29.560 --> 1:43:31.920 and extradited on a felony charge. 1:43:32.240 --> 1:43:36.040 I mean, look, if there's one thing that's appropriate for 1:43:36.120 --> 1:43:38.439 the sizzler. It's knowing that the guy who put that 1:43:38.520 --> 1:43:41.240 sizzler there could be arrested on a felony charge at 1:43:41.240 --> 1:43:41.799 any moment. 1:43:43.160 --> 1:43:44.760 And you know, we don't know what the strategy is 1:43:44.800 --> 1:43:47.040 at the prosecutor's office. Obviously they're not going to charge 1:43:47.080 --> 1:43:49.599 everybody who is there. But it's on the table right 1:43:49.680 --> 1:43:52.200 Like he's on video at that march with the torch 1:43:52.200 --> 1:43:54.840 in his hand. He fits the criteria for the ten 1:43:54.880 --> 1:43:57.120 other guys that have already gone to jail for this. 1:43:58.040 --> 1:44:00.679 But in November of twenty twenty three, those six months 1:44:00.720 --> 1:44:04.400 had passed, recalls on the table now, and before the 1:44:04.439 --> 1:44:07.160 group made the final push to actually file for the recall, 1:44:07.600 --> 1:44:10.920 they made an offer of reconciliation. All Blevin's has to 1:44:10.920 --> 1:44:15.360 do is acknowledge the truth, denounce his past actions, just 1:44:15.439 --> 1:44:18.599 own up to it, start making amends. Just say yes 1:44:18.640 --> 1:44:21.880 I did that, No, I don't do it anymore. And 1:44:21.960 --> 1:44:25.240 he can't do it. Throughout this entire ordeal, he's never 1:44:25.280 --> 1:44:27.760 owned up to it. There are pictures and video and 1:44:27.800 --> 1:44:31.759 his own words across multiple online accounts. There's no plausible 1:44:31.760 --> 1:44:34.519 deniability here. There's no saying, well, maybe that's not him. 1:44:34.720 --> 1:44:37.080 You know, it's him, so just admit it and say 1:44:37.120 --> 1:44:40.720 you're not that guy anymore. But he has consistently refused 1:44:40.720 --> 1:44:44.640 to even acknowledge it right on several occasions, you know, 1:44:44.720 --> 1:44:48.960 when really pressed, he dismisses that twenty nineteen article by 1:44:49.040 --> 1:44:52.280 Jared Holt as quote a hit piece posted four years 1:44:52.320 --> 1:44:56.120 ago by a George Soros funded leftist outlet, calling it 1:44:56.200 --> 1:44:57.840 smears and slander. 1:44:58.439 --> 1:45:01.360 Nothing smears somebody like there their own words and actions. 1:45:01.840 --> 1:45:04.160 I'm being defamed by this photograph of me. 1:45:04.920 --> 1:45:07.800 I'm being judged simply for the things i chose to do. 1:45:08.960 --> 1:45:12.719 I thought this was America. But he won't actually deny 1:45:12.800 --> 1:45:15.519 specific facts. You know, he won't say that isn't me 1:45:15.600 --> 1:45:18.120 in the photo, or I did not participate in that, 1:45:18.360 --> 1:45:20.799 or I did not post those nice things about Hitler. 1:45:21.200 --> 1:45:25.400 He just attacks the people saying it. And while Levens 1:45:25.400 --> 1:45:27.720 has never denied the truth of the allegations, some of 1:45:27.720 --> 1:45:32.000 his supporters do. At one of those council meetings in 1:45:32.040 --> 1:45:34.320 November of last year, a woman speaking in support of 1:45:34.360 --> 1:45:37.400 Levins said the allegations weren't credible as they came from 1:45:37.479 --> 1:45:41.759 organizations like the SPLC that quote only exist to smear 1:45:41.880 --> 1:45:43.440 conservative Christians. 1:45:44.080 --> 1:45:44.679 There we go. 1:45:46.520 --> 1:45:49.280 First of all, the SPLC didn't publish it. It was 1:45:49.360 --> 1:45:54.600 Wright Wing Watch, Yeah, Huffington Post, but whenever Susan. And 1:45:54.640 --> 1:45:56.920 it was at that same meeting that the council declined 1:45:56.960 --> 1:45:59.560 to even vote on a resolution to censure Blevins. The 1:45:59.600 --> 1:46:02.599 council was putting forth a resolution to say we don't 1:46:02.640 --> 1:46:05.120 agree with what that guy did. You know, it wasn't 1:46:05.120 --> 1:46:07.959 like punishing him. It didn't actually strip him of any powers. 1:46:08.360 --> 1:46:11.240 He didn't do anything except say the rest of us 1:46:11.920 --> 1:46:14.040 we don't like that. And they could, they wouldn't even 1:46:14.080 --> 1:46:18.080 vote on it. It got tabled. And at that meeting, Commissioner 1:46:18.120 --> 1:46:21.360 Derwin Norwood, the only black member of Enid City Council, 1:46:21.760 --> 1:46:25.200 offered Blevins his forgiveness and gave him a big hug 1:46:25.240 --> 1:46:26.320 and told him he loved him. 1:46:27.160 --> 1:46:27.360 Great. 1:46:27.600 --> 1:46:32.120 Levan's never apologized, right, you can't forgive someone who hasn't apologized. 1:46:32.400 --> 1:46:36.800 He had never and still has never apologized. And he 1:46:36.920 --> 1:46:39.679 was pretty clear on where he stands on apology, saying 1:46:39.760 --> 1:46:43.599 I am not going to apologize for the lies that 1:46:43.680 --> 1:46:47.719 others tell. Yeah, it was a great meeting. I watched 1:46:47.720 --> 1:46:49.479 it from home. I had you know, I love I 1:46:49.479 --> 1:46:49.960 love a meeting. 1:46:50.360 --> 1:46:54.559 Oh yeah, no, that's uh. I mean, I don't understand it, 1:46:54.760 --> 1:46:56.000 but I respect it. 1:46:57.120 --> 1:47:00.479 So, with their peace offering roundly rejected by an unapologetic Blevins, 1:47:01.280 --> 1:47:04.679 they moved forward the recall. The Enid Social Justice Committee 1:47:04.680 --> 1:47:06.840 gathered enough signatures to put it to a vote, and 1:47:06.920 --> 1:47:09.400 in January, Cheryl Patterson threw her hat into the ring 1:47:09.439 --> 1:47:13.760 to replace Blevins. And to be clear, this is still Enid, Oklahoma, 1:47:13.800 --> 1:47:17.559 where sixty percent of voters are registered Republicans. This wasn't 1:47:17.560 --> 1:47:22.439 some liberal coup. Patterson is also a lifelong Republican candidate 1:47:22.439 --> 1:47:24.760 formed the week before the election, Patterson was quick to 1:47:24.800 --> 1:47:26.479 say like right off the bat, the second she opened 1:47:26.520 --> 1:47:29.040 her mouth, she said, contrary to the rumor, I was 1:47:29.120 --> 1:47:34.439 not recruited by the Enid Social Justice Committee. And she said, 1:47:34.439 --> 1:47:36.280 you know, she'd been thinking about running for a while. 1:47:36.400 --> 1:47:39.120 She loves Enid, but she was pushed to action by 1:47:39.160 --> 1:47:43.000 her opponent's inability to clearly denounce his past involvement with 1:47:43.000 --> 1:47:45.720 a white supremacist group. And it is remarkable right to 1:47:45.760 --> 1:47:51.240 see conservative Republicans in the South saying like that Nazi 1:47:51.280 --> 1:47:52.240 stuff is too much for me. 1:47:53.960 --> 1:47:58.040 Yeah, I mean, and that's like that's actually an important 1:47:58.120 --> 1:48:02.840 part of turning shit back is getting these people who 1:48:02.840 --> 1:48:06.280 are otherwise conservative to draw a line and actually hold 1:48:06.280 --> 1:48:09.519 to it, because it it at least arrests that right 1:48:09.560 --> 1:48:13.160 word momentum to an extent. And we're just not going 1:48:13.200 --> 1:48:15.080 to get out of this unless we have some of 1:48:15.120 --> 1:48:16.160 that right. 1:48:16.160 --> 1:48:18.280 I'm not living in a you know, in a fantasy 1:48:18.400 --> 1:48:21.559 land where the city of Enid, Oklahoma is represented by 1:48:21.640 --> 1:48:24.200 a council of six socialists like that, that's not on 1:48:24.200 --> 1:48:28.080 the table. I accept that, but at least their Republicans 1:48:28.080 --> 1:48:31.639 can say, ah, the fourteen words is like not my vibe. 1:48:32.520 --> 1:48:37.360 Yeah, literally, participating in a white supremacist terrorist action is 1:48:37.720 --> 1:48:40.719 a line for us, and I'm glad there's a line, 1:48:41.880 --> 1:48:42.280 so you know. 1:48:42.320 --> 1:48:44.519 She says she was inspired to run for office because 1:48:44.560 --> 1:48:47.519 he not because of what he did, but because he 1:48:47.600 --> 1:48:50.559 couldn't even denounce it, right that. You know, people can 1:48:50.600 --> 1:48:52.880 grow and change. I pray that his heart moves, but 1:48:52.960 --> 1:48:56.360 he's unable to even denounce it, and he really does 1:48:56.360 --> 1:48:59.240 seem incapable. The very first question at that forum the 1:48:59.280 --> 1:49:03.439 week before the line was about this. Obviously a lot 1:49:03.479 --> 1:49:06.160 of the questions were, and he gave another non denial. Right, 1:49:06.200 --> 1:49:08.880 he said, this election is about the next three years 1:49:08.920 --> 1:49:12.559 of this city, not about organizations that disbanded five years ago. 1:49:13.200 --> 1:49:16.640 But he went on to say that he would quote gladly, 1:49:16.720 --> 1:49:20.160 plead guilty to speaking out against what is being done 1:49:20.240 --> 1:49:25.320 to this country and the anti white hatred in the media. 1:49:25.400 --> 1:49:27.920 So he tries to talk around the issue, saying, you know, 1:49:28.040 --> 1:49:30.360 he was just advocating for the same policies that got 1:49:30.360 --> 1:49:33.280 Donald Trump elected. But it's not like he was on 1:49:33.320 --> 1:49:35.559 the local Republican committee, right, He wasn't working on a 1:49:35.600 --> 1:49:39.040 GOP campaign. He was an organizer for a group that 1:49:39.160 --> 1:49:43.400 supported those policies of the Trump administration explicitly because they 1:49:43.439 --> 1:49:46.040 believe those policies were a stepping stone towards the full 1:49:46.120 --> 1:49:50.320 Nazification of American politics. Right, you know, the relationship between 1:49:50.320 --> 1:49:54.800 those two things troubling concerning. But you can't pretend there's 1:49:54.840 --> 1:49:58.680 no difference between voting Republican and holding a torch at 1:49:58.720 --> 1:50:02.160 the Nazi parade. And that's what he's trying to do here. 1:50:02.240 --> 1:50:04.800 He's trying to blur that lines. You know, I'm just 1:50:04.800 --> 1:50:07.439 being punished for being a proud conservative. And it's like, 1:50:07.479 --> 1:50:12.240 which which part right people who's you know people who 1:50:12.240 --> 1:50:13.800 want free speech, and it's like, well, which word do 1:50:13.800 --> 1:50:16.640 you want to say? And at no point during this 1:50:16.680 --> 1:50:19.600 recall campaign, from when they announced it in November to 1:50:19.680 --> 1:50:23.400 the election two weeks ago now, at no point during 1:50:23.439 --> 1:50:26.680 this recall campaign did he publicly denounce any of the 1:50:26.680 --> 1:50:30.439 white supremacists who supported him. Outlets like v Dare, a 1:50:30.479 --> 1:50:33.719 white nationalist publication run by an English born anti immigration 1:50:33.840 --> 1:50:36.200 race scientists who lives in a castle in West Virginia, 1:50:36.800 --> 1:50:40.760 wrote fawning editorials which were promoted by prominent white nationalists, 1:50:40.800 --> 1:50:46.360 including Identity Europa founder Nathan Dimigo. Fascist telegram channels provided 1:50:46.360 --> 1:50:49.679 guidance to subscribers about Oklahoma's campaign finance laws, which would 1:50:49.720 --> 1:50:53.439 allow them to donate to Blevins's campaign anonymously as long 1:50:53.479 --> 1:50:57.759 as they kept it under fifty dollars. According to reporting 1:50:57.760 --> 1:51:00.439 by Christmathias and Huntington Post, a man in Tech who 1:51:00.479 --> 1:51:03.320 runs a business with a known Patriot Front member donated 1:51:03.600 --> 1:51:06.640 nearly two thousand dollars to the campaign, which made up 1:51:06.680 --> 1:51:09.080 the bulk of the donated cash. And you might give 1:51:09.160 --> 1:51:11.400 him the benefit of the doubt and say, well, maybe 1:51:11.439 --> 1:51:13.560 he didn't know he was being endorsed by some of 1:51:13.600 --> 1:51:16.200 the largest elements in organized white supremacy in America. 1:51:16.960 --> 1:51:19.519 Sure, but he did he did know. 1:51:21.040 --> 1:51:23.400 As a member of the city council, he definitely saw 1:51:23.439 --> 1:51:26.000 the letters that were addressed to the city Council in 1:51:26.040 --> 1:51:29.559 support of Blevins from the American Freedom Party, an explicitly 1:51:29.600 --> 1:51:32.879 white supremacist political party that occasionally runs a Nazi for president. 1:51:34.080 --> 1:51:36.880 But he said nothing. And when a constituent, father James Neil, 1:51:36.920 --> 1:51:39.280 asked him directly why his campaign was funded by members 1:51:39.320 --> 1:51:42.719 of Patriot Front, he told the priest to quote, shut 1:51:42.840 --> 1:51:47.679 up again. He chose the company of neo Nazis, Holocaust deniers, 1:51:47.680 --> 1:51:51.960 white supremacists, white nationalists, and ethno state enthusiasts. How can 1:51:52.000 --> 1:51:54.360 you expect people to believe you're not that guy anymore 1:51:54.400 --> 1:51:57.800 when you have their public praise, their endorsement, and their 1:51:57.840 --> 1:52:00.960 money in your pocket. But you know who does not 1:52:01.400 --> 1:52:04.800 have two thousand dollars in cash from Patriot Front in 1:52:04.880 --> 1:52:05.720 their pockets? 1:52:06.120 --> 1:52:07.559 No, I know they keep that shit in the back. 1:52:07.680 --> 1:52:17.400 I mean, they don't have it. Here's here's our sponsors, 1:52:22.360 --> 1:52:24.519 and we're back. 1:52:25.720 --> 1:52:28.120 So on April second, that's two weeks ago. 1:52:28.160 --> 1:52:28.280 Now. 1:52:28.280 --> 1:52:31.320 As we're recording, the people of Enid returned to the 1:52:31.360 --> 1:52:34.760 polls and jud Blevins was voted out of office as 1:52:34.800 --> 1:52:37.160 Ward one City Commissioner by a vote of eight hundred 1:52:37.160 --> 1:52:40.880 and twenty nine to five sixty one. And I don't 1:52:40.880 --> 1:52:42.360 know if you're a math guy. I'm not a math guy. 1:52:42.360 --> 1:52:44.519 I a calculator. Out for this bad boy. But this 1:52:44.600 --> 1:52:47.439 turnout was significantly larger than the vote that put him 1:52:47.439 --> 1:52:51.080 into office. A seventy two percent increase in total votes. 1:52:51.160 --> 1:52:55.040 That's a lot. Yeah, that's a lot more people who 1:52:55.040 --> 1:52:57.639 showed up to you know, an off cycle special election. 1:52:59.000 --> 1:53:01.719 Yeah. Yeah, that's specifically weird. 1:53:02.080 --> 1:53:04.439 And unlike the slim margin of just thirty six votes 1:53:04.439 --> 1:53:06.920 that won him the twenty twenty three election, he lost 1:53:06.920 --> 1:53:12.240 the recall by nearly twenty points. That's a spankin. You know, 1:53:12.280 --> 1:53:14.000 it's hard to chalk a loss like that up to 1:53:14.120 --> 1:53:18.360 a lunatic fringe, right, That's that's the electorate speaking. But 1:53:18.479 --> 1:53:21.519 Matthew Gibert, a former State Department employee who lost his 1:53:21.600 --> 1:53:24.240 job for failing to disclose his active involvement in white 1:53:24.240 --> 1:53:27.960 supremacist organizing, noted in his telegram channel that while the 1:53:28.000 --> 1:53:32.880 loss is disappointing, an open white nationalist winning forty percent 1:53:32.920 --> 1:53:37.120 of the vote is quote, nothing to despair over, and 1:53:37.360 --> 1:53:39.040 you never got a hand out to the guy who 1:53:39.360 --> 1:53:43.479 hosts a podcast about the joys of Nazi fatherhood or whatever. Yeah, 1:53:43.520 --> 1:53:45.320 but the numbers are what they are. You know, he 1:53:45.640 --> 1:53:48.320 did win forty percent of the vote, and this was 1:53:48.560 --> 1:53:51.839 after months of very public debate in the national spotlight 1:53:51.840 --> 1:53:55.800 that made it impossible not to know what the allegations were. 1:53:56.720 --> 1:53:59.760 And it's not like these were just diehard conservatives who 1:53:59.800 --> 1:54:02.240 had walk into the voting booth and put their check 1:54:02.280 --> 1:54:04.720 mark next to wherever the letter R was right in 1:54:04.760 --> 1:54:07.800 this election, the other name on the ticket was a 1:54:07.800 --> 1:54:10.639 Republican too, Like, these were people who walked in there 1:54:10.680 --> 1:54:13.920 and knowingly and intentionally cast their vote for a guy 1:54:13.920 --> 1:54:16.160 who used to vet new members for a Nazi club. 1:54:17.000 --> 1:54:19.880 This isn't a fairy tale, it's reality, right. This wasn't 1:54:19.880 --> 1:54:23.800 an offensive win by progress or the left or what 1:54:23.920 --> 1:54:27.920 have you. This was an effective defense And I hope 1:54:27.960 --> 1:54:30.080 conservatives can see a little lesson here, right, Like the 1:54:30.120 --> 1:54:32.920 story is too often one of ever ratcheting extremism. You 1:54:32.920 --> 1:54:35.320 can only win if you go further, if you go wilder, 1:54:35.600 --> 1:54:37.120 if you're appealing to the people who are on the 1:54:37.240 --> 1:54:40.680 absolute extreme end of what's acceptable to say in the party. 1:54:41.480 --> 1:54:44.560 But this was a case where a fellow conservative said, Hey, 1:54:44.640 --> 1:54:46.840 I want to take some books out of the library too. 1:54:47.320 --> 1:54:49.920 I'm not a liberal, but we just can't be out 1:54:49.920 --> 1:54:54.120 here saying the fourteen words, right. And I think some 1:54:54.280 --> 1:54:56.600 of the buzz around this story comes from people in 1:54:56.600 --> 1:55:00.400 bigger cities or bluer states. I mean, honestly, I'm of 1:55:00.400 --> 1:55:02.800 this as well, who were shocked that, you know, purple 1:55:02.880 --> 1:55:06.120 haired liberals and progressive clergy even exist in a place 1:55:06.160 --> 1:55:10.400 like Enid, Oklahoma. But this red state blue state dichotomy 1:55:11.120 --> 1:55:14.520 is a myth. Most places are purple, most places are 1:55:14.560 --> 1:55:17.920 sixty forty. Even in places that reliably one hundred percent 1:55:17.920 --> 1:55:23.080 of the time vote Republican, there's still a large minority 1:55:23.120 --> 1:55:25.760 of people who are not represented by that. So even 1:55:25.760 --> 1:55:28.600 in a place like Enid, which is Republican at the polls, 1:55:29.120 --> 1:55:32.000 you have a pretty big chunk of the population isn't 1:55:32.040 --> 1:55:35.120 represented on that two colored map. That doesn't mean they 1:55:35.120 --> 1:55:38.960 don't care. And when I watched those Enid city council meetings, 1:55:39.520 --> 1:55:40.720 I saw Charlottesville. 1:55:40.960 --> 1:55:41.160 Right. 1:55:41.320 --> 1:55:43.280 I've gone to every city council meeting in Charletsville for 1:55:43.280 --> 1:55:45.560 the last seven years. Like, I know what it looks 1:55:45.640 --> 1:55:48.160 like for people in a town that size to show 1:55:48.240 --> 1:55:51.120 up and say, what the fuck, what the fuck are 1:55:51.160 --> 1:55:51.840 you doing to us? 1:55:52.560 --> 1:55:52.680 Right? 1:55:52.800 --> 1:55:55.920 Yeah, you know it looked like one of our meetings. 1:55:55.920 --> 1:55:56.080 You know. 1:55:56.080 --> 1:55:59.320 I saw regular people, moms and students and grandmas and 1:55:59.400 --> 1:56:02.680 teachers and ladies who bring muffins to the church bake sale. 1:56:02.720 --> 1:56:05.280 People who know that their town can do better than 1:56:05.320 --> 1:56:07.640 to be represented by a guy who won't apologize for 1:56:07.680 --> 1:56:11.120 attending the largest Nazi rally on US soil in our lifetimes. 1:56:11.520 --> 1:56:13.760 Yeah, and I feel a lot for the folks who 1:56:13.840 --> 1:56:16.560 are kind of not represented by either of the two 1:56:16.600 --> 1:56:20.360 big lines on the political map, and maybe most of 1:56:20.400 --> 1:56:23.040 the time feel like I don't know what the fuck 1:56:23.120 --> 1:56:25.640 I can actually do or should do, but I know 1:56:25.760 --> 1:56:28.080 this Nazi shouldn't be in office. 1:56:29.200 --> 1:56:32.000 So these were just these were just regular people. These 1:56:32.000 --> 1:56:36.720 weren't party apperatics or you know, this wasn't the Democrat 1:56:36.760 --> 1:56:38.920 party doing this, as wasn't the Republican party doing this. 1:56:39.200 --> 1:56:42.520 These were just people who didn't think that a Nazi 1:56:42.520 --> 1:56:45.520 should be their city commissioner. And that's I think another 1:56:45.600 --> 1:56:48.240 myth at play here, right, is that activist is some 1:56:48.280 --> 1:56:50.880 sort of separate class of person, that there is some 1:56:50.920 --> 1:56:53.240 portion of the population whose only goal in life is 1:56:53.280 --> 1:56:57.000 this nebulous, nefarious thing called activism. That you know, it's 1:56:57.000 --> 1:57:00.800 sort of this boogeyman of the professional troublemaker. And throughout 1:57:00.800 --> 1:57:03.240 this process, Blevins and his supporters have smeared the group 1:57:03.320 --> 1:57:06.240 organizing the recall, the Ined Social Justice Committee, is some 1:57:06.360 --> 1:57:09.680 kind of fringe radical group. They're Antifa, they're freaks, They're 1:57:09.720 --> 1:57:14.360 not like us. They're coming for our children. His recall 1:57:14.440 --> 1:57:18.120 campaign website called the petitioners an unhinged group of left 1:57:18.200 --> 1:57:22.240 wing fringe activists. And the campaign website didn't say what 1:57:22.320 --> 1:57:25.400 he could do for you. It attacked the petitioners and 1:57:25.440 --> 1:57:28.280 said this is what they will do to you. And 1:57:28.600 --> 1:57:30.600 I've seen this in my own city council meetings, right, 1:57:30.640 --> 1:57:33.480 this sort of bizarre tendency of those in power to 1:57:33.480 --> 1:57:35.480 write off the people they don't want to hear from 1:57:35.520 --> 1:57:38.840 as activists. Well, those are people we need to listen to. 1:57:38.880 --> 1:57:41.840 Those are activists. That's a different kind of person. Anyone 1:57:41.840 --> 1:57:44.560 who's asking for something they don't want to do, something 1:57:44.600 --> 1:57:48.040 that's uncomfortable, something that requires them to look inward, or 1:57:48.080 --> 1:57:52.120 look at the structures they're upholding. They undergo this instant 1:57:52.320 --> 1:57:56.920 metamorphosis from constituent to activists. This is no longer a 1:57:57.000 --> 1:58:00.280 voter or a constituent. This is a crazy person. This 1:58:00.360 --> 1:58:02.800 person isn't your neighbor anymore. They're an activist. 1:58:03.240 --> 1:58:04.000 Yeah. 1:58:04.080 --> 1:58:05.400 I think you know, there are people who wear that 1:58:05.440 --> 1:58:09.160 mantle proudly, and why shouldn't they. It's a usually positive thing. 1:58:09.960 --> 1:58:11.760 But the use of the word as some sort of 1:58:11.960 --> 1:58:15.520 delegitimizing cudgel is so consistent that I think it's worth 1:58:15.720 --> 1:58:23.160 thinking about when it gets used against the recipient's will. Yeah, 1:58:23.200 --> 1:58:28.280 and there's no ending to this story, right, because this 1:58:28.440 --> 1:58:31.720 is never really over. It is happening here, it is 1:58:31.760 --> 1:58:34.520 happening there. And I don't know what's next for Blevins. 1:58:34.720 --> 1:58:38.280 Maybe he just smelts quietly back into society and puts 1:58:38.360 --> 1:58:40.840 roofs on houses. A week after the recall, he filed 1:58:40.840 --> 1:58:43.480 paperwork to change the name of his dad's contracting business 1:58:43.520 --> 1:58:48.720 from Invincible Contracting to Great Planes Roofing. The paperwork filed 1:58:49.080 --> 1:58:51.720 shows that the company is now registered. The company is 1:58:51.720 --> 1:58:54.640 now registered. His address a house in Enid that he 1:58:54.640 --> 1:58:58.320 bought last summer, with a VA loan. But now that 1:58:58.400 --> 1:59:00.760 he's free of the self imposed recons train of running 1:59:00.760 --> 1:59:04.880 for office, maybe he leans into it and becomes this guy. Right, 1:59:04.920 --> 1:59:07.600 Maybe he's just the guy that this happens to, and 1:59:07.640 --> 1:59:11.280 he goes on the cancel culture grievance circuit. Maybe he 1:59:11.320 --> 1:59:14.160 goes full throttle and tries to get back into movement organizing. 1:59:15.280 --> 1:59:18.240 I think his failure to come out and really celebrate 1:59:18.280 --> 1:59:20.400 the movement and really own it and say yes, I 1:59:20.440 --> 1:59:24.400 said that stuff and it's good. I think that failure, 1:59:25.200 --> 1:59:28.120 as they would perceive it, would hurt him a little 1:59:28.120 --> 1:59:30.600 bit if he tries to re enter the movement, but 1:59:30.680 --> 1:59:32.360 not so badly that he couldn't do it. You know, 1:59:32.360 --> 1:59:35.120 they're so desperate for new material that they would probably 1:59:35.160 --> 1:59:36.920 embrace him if he wanted to be the figurehead of 1:59:36.960 --> 1:59:40.480 the month. Yeah, hopefully he just does the roofing thing though. 1:59:40.920 --> 1:59:43.440 Yeah, yeah, hopefully he does the roofing thing and then 1:59:43.480 --> 1:59:46.960 the falling off the roof thing, and then you. 1:59:46.960 --> 1:59:49.080 Know he's that they're doing the work himself. He doesn't 1:59:49.120 --> 1:59:50.960 even have a contracting license, I checked. 1:59:51.480 --> 1:59:54.320 I hope he hires someone who is like a very 1:59:54.440 --> 1:59:57.800 large person and they fall off and are okay because 1:59:57.840 --> 2:00:02.040 they land on him. That's that's I think where I'm. 2:00:01.880 --> 2:00:04.760 Going here, And to be clear, that's Robert speaking. 2:00:05.280 --> 2:00:08.680 Yeah, yeah, that is, But that is also the official 2:00:08.720 --> 2:00:09.920 opinion of iHeartMedia. 2:00:11.000 --> 2:00:13.600 Mean, I don't know that he's he's made any great pronouncements. 2:00:13.600 --> 2:00:15.920 He hasn't showed up on any Nazi podcast yet. I 2:00:17.320 --> 2:00:20.240 will put ten dollars on a bet that says he will. 2:00:20.000 --> 2:00:22.440 He'll be on somebody's podcast by the end of the month. 2:00:22.480 --> 2:00:25.680 I don't doubt it. But hopefully he just does roofing. 2:00:26.480 --> 2:00:28.839 Yeah, stick to roofing. 2:00:29.920 --> 2:00:32.320 As for ENID, you know, they want a battle that 2:00:32.320 --> 2:00:34.840 they shouldn't have had to fight. It should be kind 2:00:34.840 --> 2:00:36.960 of a no brainer that we don't elect guys like this. 2:00:37.520 --> 2:00:40.720 That's becoming less certain every day, Like the fact that 2:00:40.760 --> 2:00:42.800 there was any question about how the recall might go 2:00:43.080 --> 2:00:45.400 is concerning. We shouldn't be in a position of wondering 2:00:45.880 --> 2:00:48.080 will people vote for the guy who won't deny he 2:00:48.120 --> 2:00:51.040 loves Hitler. But I think we can applaud the tenacity 2:00:51.080 --> 2:00:53.120 of the folks in Enan who did what was necessary 2:00:53.160 --> 2:00:56.360 in a place where it wasn't easy. Yeah, you know, 2:00:56.400 --> 2:00:58.400 and there's there's lessons to be learned here. Go to 2:00:58.440 --> 2:01:00.960 the meetings, get a seed and sit council chambers. Go 2:01:01.000 --> 2:01:03.200 to the library board meeting, go to the school board meeting. 2:01:03.600 --> 2:01:06.560 You don't have to be an activist, whatever that means, 2:01:07.000 --> 2:01:10.000 but be in the room because nobody's going to change 2:01:10.040 --> 2:01:13.440 the world on their own. And maybe changing the world 2:01:13.600 --> 2:01:18.480 isn't even a meaningful objective. I don't know what that means. Yeah, 2:01:18.520 --> 2:01:22.120 but today, maybe there's something you can do with your 2:01:22.120 --> 2:01:26.600 neighbors to stop the rising tide in your town. You 2:01:26.640 --> 2:01:30.000 can't change the weather, but you can put down some sandbags. 2:01:30.640 --> 2:01:33.640 And there are jud blevins Is everywhere, hiding behind mealy 2:01:33.680 --> 2:01:38.000 mouthed rhetoric of conservatism and quietly chipping away at your 2:01:38.040 --> 2:01:39.360 local institutions. 2:01:40.000 --> 2:01:46.520 Yeah, so it's doable, fighting the juds Blevin of I 2:01:46.600 --> 2:01:52.080 chose a different way to Pluraliza's name of your wherever 2:01:52.120 --> 2:01:55.080 you live, your state, your city. Like is doable, and 2:01:55.160 --> 2:01:58.880 it's doable if you stick to this very simple platform 2:01:58.920 --> 2:02:01.720 of like, but not a Nazi. Right, we can agree 2:02:01.840 --> 2:02:02.520 not a Nazi. 2:02:02.640 --> 2:02:07.200 You know, if conservatives have any if conservatives had any sense, 2:02:07.600 --> 2:02:10.600 they could retake a lot of ground by saying like 2:02:11.560 --> 2:02:14.680 you know, we love all the stuff you love, fellow conservatives, 2:02:15.080 --> 2:02:17.960 but we're not that guy, right, Like, if they had 2:02:18.000 --> 2:02:21.480 any if they had any pride, they would stop pandering 2:02:21.720 --> 2:02:24.040 to the lunatic fringe. 2:02:24.280 --> 2:02:26.760 Yeah, and it is just kind of looking at how 2:02:27.080 --> 2:02:30.960 congressional race is shaping up, where it seemed like it 2:02:31.040 --> 2:02:34.320 should have been pretty easy for them to retake the house. 2:02:34.760 --> 2:02:38.800 But you know, now they're kind of like flailing a 2:02:38.880 --> 2:02:42.880 little bit, in part because they keep backing these maniacs 2:02:42.880 --> 2:02:45.960 who just aren't good. Yeah. 2:02:46.480 --> 2:02:50.080 I don't really believe that those ideas are popular. They 2:02:50.280 --> 2:02:52.520 just have fallen into this trap of thinking like this 2:02:52.640 --> 2:02:54.200 is the only way to win. So I guess I 2:02:54.280 --> 2:02:54.920 have to do it. 2:02:55.160 --> 2:02:57.400 But you'll send it not that house anyway, whatever, we'll 2:02:57.400 --> 2:02:57.680 cut that. 2:02:58.040 --> 2:03:01.360 Who cares about those guys. Yeah, but you don't have 2:03:01.480 --> 2:03:04.480 to do it, right, Be the Sheeryl Batterson you want 2:03:04.480 --> 2:03:07.080 to see in the world. Yeah, and just be a 2:03:07.080 --> 2:03:08.879 milk toast Republican and be the Nazi. 2:03:09.560 --> 2:03:14.200 Yeah, at least. I don't know. I'm mixed because, like 2:03:16.320 --> 2:03:19.240 I do, I do like it when the Republicans fail 2:03:19.960 --> 2:03:22.120 over much, but I also feel like it's bad to 2:03:22.200 --> 2:03:24.680 take the bet of like, well, if we hope for 2:03:24.800 --> 2:03:27.720 more nazis that push people away from the Republicans, maybe 2:03:27.720 --> 2:03:30.600 it'll work for us in the long run. Statistically that 2:03:30.600 --> 2:03:40.360 that kind of gamble is real dangerous. Yeah, yeah, that's Enid, 2:03:41.080 --> 2:03:42.600 that's inened Baby, good working. 2:03:42.880 --> 2:03:46.560 Congratulations to the end Social Justice Committee. Honestly, I'm yeah, 2:03:47.040 --> 2:03:47.720 very impressed. 2:03:48.120 --> 2:03:54.520 You get our coveted Oklahoma City of the Month award, 2:03:55.120 --> 2:03:57.880 which is confusing because you are very near Oklahoma City. 2:03:57.920 --> 2:04:00.800 But they shouldn't have named it that. Well, that's all 2:04:00.840 --> 2:04:01.160 I got. 2:04:01.440 --> 2:04:03.240 That's all I got. Yeah, I was trying to put 2:04:03.240 --> 2:04:04.960 a button, trying to put a button on that bad boy. 2:04:05.040 --> 2:04:08.200 But uh yeah that's Oklahoma baby. 2:04:08.680 --> 2:04:24.720 Yeah, good for you, Good for Oklahoma. 2:04:25.440 --> 2:04:28.880 Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. On 2:04:29.040 --> 2:04:32.720 this show, we try to apply political and cultural analysis 2:04:32.760 --> 2:04:36.320 towards speculative futurity. What can we learn about the future 2:04:36.400 --> 2:04:39.400 by looking at how our present relates to our past 2:04:39.760 --> 2:04:41.840 and now? As we approach a whole decade of a 2:04:41.880 --> 2:04:45.760 resurgent far right gaining cultural prominence, we're entering a moment 2:04:45.800 --> 2:04:48.160 in time where pop culture and media is starting to 2:04:48.240 --> 2:04:52.160 catch up to the current political zeitgeist. Our media landscape 2:04:52.200 --> 2:04:56.520 is inundated with depictions of unreality, political extremism, collapse, and 2:04:56.600 --> 2:05:00.840 rising civil tensions. Some of these succeed more than but 2:05:01.000 --> 2:05:05.440 most are still deeply neoliberal in their depictions. The Obama 2:05:05.480 --> 2:05:08.200 produced a Netflix movie from last year, Leave the World Behind, 2:05:08.600 --> 2:05:12.000 was a speculative look at a collapse orchestrated to jumpstart 2:05:12.000 --> 2:05:15.880 a second American Civil war. Alex Garland's voyeuristic civil war 2:05:15.920 --> 2:05:19.640 movie just released, which sort of gestures at politics with 2:05:20.160 --> 2:05:24.960 offhand mentions of portlaind maoists and the Antifa massacre. But 2:05:25.160 --> 2:05:27.960 as a movie, it completely fails to understand the moment 2:05:28.000 --> 2:05:30.960 we currently occupy, and I believe is even more out 2:05:30.960 --> 2:05:34.040 of touch than the Obama collapse movie, but we're not 2:05:34.040 --> 2:05:36.320 talking about that today. For my thoughts on that, you 2:05:36.320 --> 2:05:38.600 can look up my review on Letterboxed and refer to 2:05:38.640 --> 2:05:41.200 the reviews I liked for a more robust critique of 2:05:41.240 --> 2:05:45.480 Garland's deeply troubling depiction of quote unquote neutral war journalism 2:05:45.800 --> 2:05:50.560 as uncritically virtuous. Instead, this episode will be turning to 2:05:50.600 --> 2:05:53.920 a depiction of modern da extremism that I'm not sure 2:05:54.000 --> 2:06:00.160 is better. It's still deeply neoliberal and honestly more overtly copaganda, 2:06:00.240 --> 2:06:03.160 but one that I still find more interesting and I 2:06:03.200 --> 2:06:08.040 believe does understand our political moment much better than Alex 2:06:08.160 --> 2:06:10.720 Garland does, who comes off as less and less intelligent 2:06:10.760 --> 2:06:14.160 in every single interview he does. Last month, the television 2:06:14.240 --> 2:06:18.560 show Law and Order did an episode focusing on Robert 2:06:18.640 --> 2:06:23.120 Rundo's far right fitness groups, the White supremacist Active Clubs. 2:06:23.520 --> 2:06:26.480 To discuss, I am joined by longtime far right researcher 2:06:26.680 --> 2:06:27.400 Molly Conger. 2:06:27.560 --> 2:06:30.320 Hello, Molly, Hey, thanks for having me on. And you 2:06:30.360 --> 2:06:32.839 probably didn't know this about me. I am a secret 2:06:32.920 --> 2:06:35.880 enjoyer of police procedurals, so I've actually watched a lot 2:06:35.920 --> 2:06:36.600 of Law and Order. 2:06:37.200 --> 2:06:39.320 I have never seen a single episode of Law and 2:06:39.400 --> 2:06:44.280 Order until this week, so I was really inundated. I 2:06:44.320 --> 2:06:47.720 don't know. I watch a lot of kind of troubling media, though, 2:06:48.040 --> 2:06:52.400 and media that tries to comment on current political extremism, 2:06:52.640 --> 2:06:54.920 and often when I talk with my friends about my 2:06:55.040 --> 2:06:59.040 interest in viewing things like this episode, I get confused 2:06:59.200 --> 2:07:04.680 or even adversarial reactions, and I do truly understand their hesitations. 2:07:04.920 --> 2:07:07.920 Pop culture media like this is often very sensational, turning 2:07:08.080 --> 2:07:11.160 very real pain trauma and death caused by the far 2:07:11.280 --> 2:07:14.840 right into this form of kind of mindless entertainment and 2:07:15.040 --> 2:07:18.680 often reifying the role of good government and good cops 2:07:19.000 --> 2:07:23.440 to maintain order against racist insurgents, even though more and 2:07:23.520 --> 2:07:25.880 more of their ilk begin to occupy public office and 2:07:26.000 --> 2:07:30.640 become cops themselves. But politics and culture are hand in hand. 2:07:31.360 --> 2:07:33.720 Lots of what became the al Right grew out of 2:07:33.760 --> 2:07:36.400 gamer gait, and I think there is a real use 2:07:36.440 --> 2:07:39.920 in understanding how the political activities of fascists and anti 2:07:39.920 --> 2:07:43.680 fascists are depicted in mass media. I believe there is 2:07:43.720 --> 2:07:46.600 some value in knowing what NBC and the writers of 2:07:46.680 --> 2:07:49.880 Law and Order think in Active club is as like 2:07:49.920 --> 2:07:52.880 a sort of cultural litmus test, and also to see 2:07:52.920 --> 2:07:55.680 how well people like us are doing in trying to 2:07:55.840 --> 2:07:59.240 educate about these types of groups. But I totally understand 2:07:59.280 --> 2:08:02.000 that not everyone wants to suffer through a forty minute 2:08:02.080 --> 2:08:06.160 Lawn Order episode about cops beating the Nazis, So instead 2:08:06.320 --> 2:08:09.960 I will watch it for you and talk about exactly 2:08:10.360 --> 2:08:13.840 how they depicted this with Molly here today. So I 2:08:13.880 --> 2:08:15.360 think the most efficient way for me to do this 2:08:15.720 --> 2:08:18.360 is to kind of give a recap of the episode 2:08:18.720 --> 2:08:21.080 and as I start going through it, we will discuss 2:08:21.120 --> 2:08:23.480 a certain points. I can't just summarize all of it 2:08:23.720 --> 2:08:25.520 in like a short paragraph. I mean I could. I 2:08:25.560 --> 2:08:27.200 just think that would miss out on a lot of stuff. 2:08:27.280 --> 2:08:29.680 So instead, we're going to go through the episode and 2:08:29.720 --> 2:08:34.800 comment as things happen. And this episode ends up being 2:08:35.160 --> 2:08:38.080 about a lot more than just an active club. It's 2:08:38.160 --> 2:08:40.560 actually pulling from a few other influences that we will 2:08:40.600 --> 2:08:45.040 talk about probably towards the end. Anyway, that felt sloppy 2:08:45.080 --> 2:08:45.280 to me. 2:08:45.320 --> 2:08:48.840 I feel like they try to tackle several specific like 2:08:49.400 --> 2:08:50.920 I don't know how familiar are with with the Law 2:08:50.920 --> 2:08:53.440 and Order franchise, but they call these episodes the ripped 2:08:53.440 --> 2:08:56.320 from the headlines episodes, right where they take a real life, 2:08:56.400 --> 2:08:59.800 high profile case and write an episode about it. But 2:09:00.080 --> 2:09:03.040 they tried to combine several elements that I felt didn't 2:09:03.240 --> 2:09:06.120 blend well, and it deep the more material to work 2:09:06.120 --> 2:09:07.920 with than they were able to address, and so it 2:09:08.000 --> 2:09:11.080 just felt I just felt unresolved to me. 2:09:11.800 --> 2:09:14.480 I mean, I assume lots of these police procedurals are 2:09:14.600 --> 2:09:16.960 kind of undercooked, as like pieces of art. 2:09:18.040 --> 2:09:21.240 I mean, the Dick Wolf extended universe is churning out 2:09:21.360 --> 2:09:24.920 so much content that like, I don't know how they're 2:09:24.920 --> 2:09:27.480 still doing it. I mean, Olivia Benson has been on 2:09:27.560 --> 2:09:29.040 television since I was a child. 2:09:30.520 --> 2:09:34.839 So let's get into the actual episode. The cold open begins. 2:09:35.000 --> 2:09:38.040 It's night in New York City. A nervous looking white 2:09:38.080 --> 2:09:41.200 woman enters a subway station, and she's startled by a 2:09:41.240 --> 2:09:45.720 sleeping homeless man. As the subway approaches, eerie music starts playing. 2:09:46.400 --> 2:09:48.760 The anxious woman walks onto the subway and a black 2:09:48.800 --> 2:09:51.280 man cat calls her as a group of other men 2:09:51.400 --> 2:09:54.080 kind of join in. The woman quickly switches to a 2:09:54.120 --> 2:09:57.040 more empty subway car, where she then bumps into another 2:09:57.080 --> 2:09:59.760 black man whose eyes look kind of vacant and has 2:09:59.800 --> 2:10:03.400 make weird grunting noises, and then the man appears to 2:10:03.520 --> 2:10:07.280 lunge towards the woman. We cut to crime scene tape 2:10:07.320 --> 2:10:11.040 stretched across the subway station. Two police detectives to enter 2:10:11.080 --> 2:10:13.720 the subway car, where a dead body lies on the ground. 2:10:14.480 --> 2:10:17.240 But it's not the scared white woman. It's the oddly 2:10:17.400 --> 2:10:19.840 grunting black man who appears to have been strangled to 2:10:19.920 --> 2:10:23.440 death with no apparent witnesses. He's identified as twenty four 2:10:23.560 --> 2:10:26.280 year old Ellis Joyner, a stand up comedian who A 2:10:26.320 --> 2:10:29.600 detective says, quote came from down South, love to talk 2:10:29.600 --> 2:10:33.040 about how much he loved New York. The other detective remarks, 2:10:33.480 --> 2:10:36.400 great place to live, not such a great place to die. 2:10:36.800 --> 2:10:41.280 Cut the title screen with music that I assume has 2:10:41.280 --> 2:10:43.320 not been updated in like thirty years, because the actual 2:10:45.400 --> 2:10:48.280 it sounds so so nineties. 2:10:49.440 --> 2:10:50.360 They can't change it. 2:10:50.400 --> 2:10:50.680 Now. 2:10:51.480 --> 2:10:55.680 There are thousands of episodes of the show Garrison, It's history. 2:10:55.640 --> 2:10:57.880 So already with the cold open, we have like, ooh, 2:10:57.960 --> 2:11:01.560 the dangerous subway, scary homeless people, this poor white woman. 2:11:02.080 --> 2:11:03.600 A lot of stuff's being thrown at. 2:11:03.560 --> 2:11:06.720 Us, right and obviously playing on the idea that like, oh, 2:11:06.760 --> 2:11:08.440 the white woman is going to be under that, but 2:11:08.600 --> 2:11:10.280 that sheet, like that's going to be her body. 2:11:10.400 --> 2:11:13.720 Totally totally So, as we returned to the episode, a 2:11:13.760 --> 2:11:16.240 forensic pathologist says the man died after being put in 2:11:16.280 --> 2:11:19.120 a quote unquote sleeper hold, which cut off oxygen to 2:11:19.160 --> 2:11:22.800 his brain. His medical records reveal he also had severe asthma, 2:11:22.960 --> 2:11:25.840 and his hyperinflated lungs indicate he was currently suffering an 2:11:25.880 --> 2:11:28.760 asthma attack when he was killed by the lethal chokehold. 2:11:29.400 --> 2:11:31.760 In the fifty minute window for a time of death. 2:11:31.840 --> 2:11:35.320 The train passed through six subway stations, four of which 2:11:35.440 --> 2:11:37.240 all had broken cameras. 2:11:38.120 --> 2:11:40.520 Which is supposed to remind the viewer that we really 2:11:40.560 --> 2:11:42.440 need to fund the subway cops. 2:11:42.960 --> 2:11:45.440 Correct. A lot of this episode is about how subway 2:11:46.240 --> 2:11:50.200 surveillance is under equipped to deal with crime. And we 2:11:50.240 --> 2:11:52.000 could probably fix a lot of problems if there was 2:11:52.040 --> 2:11:54.240 more security cameras in the subway. 2:11:54.280 --> 2:11:56.120 Or just one hundred cops. What if they put one 2:11:56.200 --> 2:11:57.160 hundred cops on there. 2:11:57.120 --> 2:12:00.880 Sure, or more cops and like to my, the subway 2:12:00.920 --> 2:12:03.800 in New York City historically has not had security cameras 2:12:03.920 --> 2:12:06.960 inside the actual train cars, though they are expected to 2:12:07.080 --> 2:12:11.240 by twenty twenty six. But like the light rail in Portland, 2:12:11.720 --> 2:12:14.200 the kind of like not not subway, but like the 2:12:14.280 --> 2:12:18.160 Public Transits train in Atlanta, they all have cameras inside 2:12:18.200 --> 2:12:20.840 the actual train cars. I was surprised that the subway 2:12:20.880 --> 2:12:23.120 in New York did not. I just I just never 2:12:23.160 --> 2:12:27.600 knew that. Anyway. Back to law and order, Ellis Joiner's 2:12:27.600 --> 2:12:29.840 credit card identified the station that he got on at, 2:12:29.920 --> 2:12:34.400 which also had broken cameras, but police pulled streetcam footage 2:12:34.400 --> 2:12:36.800 from a few blocks away, which shows Joyner getting into 2:12:36.840 --> 2:12:40.320 a fight with another comedian where Joyner got punched. The 2:12:40.360 --> 2:12:43.800 other man is recognized as Malcolm Paige, a stand up 2:12:43.800 --> 2:12:46.720 who quote used to open for Chappelle back in the 2:12:46.800 --> 2:12:52.080 day unquote, so already setting up something fantastic. The detectives 2:12:52.120 --> 2:12:54.960 interview Page and show him social media footage of Joiners 2:12:54.960 --> 2:12:56.800 is set from last night, making fun of Page for 2:12:56.880 --> 2:13:02.000 being old and irrelevant. Page says that verbally attacked him 2:13:02.320 --> 2:13:05.800 because Joiner quote got his panties in a twist unquote 2:13:05.920 --> 2:13:09.400 over some of Page's jokes quote hit too close to 2:13:09.480 --> 2:13:14.560 home for fancy boy unquote. And when Page says fancy boy, 2:13:14.640 --> 2:13:17.919 he does this little shaky hand thing, which the detective 2:13:17.960 --> 2:13:21.160 asks if that's supposed to imply that Joyner is gay, 2:13:21.280 --> 2:13:23.600 which the older comedian says, yes. 2:13:24.520 --> 2:13:27.320 I mean I've seen this sort of like limpressed hand 2:13:27.440 --> 2:13:27.840 movie this. 2:13:29.560 --> 2:13:32.000 Did it did? It was just like a weird like 2:13:32.080 --> 2:13:34.840 shaking like hand, like fancy you. 2:13:34.760 --> 2:13:36.600 Sort of shake your hand side to side when you 2:13:36.640 --> 2:13:39.920 mean like kind of or maybe exactly exactly hand movie. 2:13:40.120 --> 2:13:42.680 It was your homophobic gestures, right, it was. 2:13:42.760 --> 2:13:45.680 It was really weird. I found this whole interaction kind 2:13:45.680 --> 2:13:46.680 of bizarre. 2:13:46.760 --> 2:13:49.080 And unnecessary, like you write in this kind of red 2:13:49.080 --> 2:13:52.280 herring when you're trying to fill time. But they had plenty, 2:13:52.320 --> 2:13:54.040 they had plenty of script. They didn't need this. 2:13:54.760 --> 2:13:57.520 This episode's so focused on different forms of racism, so 2:13:57.600 --> 2:14:00.360 much adding in this like weird gay subplot to doesn't 2:14:00.360 --> 2:14:02.600 It doesn't end up going anywhere, and it's just kind 2:14:02.600 --> 2:14:06.240 of bizarre. So anyway, this basically, this older comedian was 2:14:06.240 --> 2:14:09.520 telling homophobic jokes. Joiner then made fun of him on stage, 2:14:09.840 --> 2:14:13.960 and this older comedian Page assaulted him outside. Page then 2:14:14.040 --> 2:14:17.360 left in an uber and Joiner ran off with his boyfriend, who, 2:14:17.440 --> 2:14:21.720 according to Paige, weren't getting along either. So there's some 2:14:21.800 --> 2:14:26.080 kind of like like God, a new suspect arises exactly exactly. 2:14:26.320 --> 2:14:30.240 So police look through Joiner's emails and texts in the 2:14:30.320 --> 2:14:35.640 cloud quote unquote, and can't find any record of a boyfriend, 2:14:35.760 --> 2:14:38.640 making detectives surmise that he must have been in the closet, 2:14:38.920 --> 2:14:42.880 which is a baffling thing to surmise. Cops then contact 2:14:43.000 --> 2:14:47.400 quote the Traveler app. That's that's Traveler spelled. 2:14:47.280 --> 2:14:50.960 T r a v l R. You have to cut 2:14:50.960 --> 2:14:52.880 out a vowel or it's not an apple. 2:14:53.840 --> 2:14:59.880 So legally not Grinder gives NYPD complete access to Joiner's account, and. 2:15:00.080 --> 2:15:03.640 I'm sorry, Like, are gay male sex apps usually like 2:15:03.720 --> 2:15:06.960 pink and purple. The color scheme is pink and purple. 2:15:07.040 --> 2:15:10.240 Yeah, not my experience, but yeah, I think it's also 2:15:10.240 --> 2:15:14.520 a referenced to like like travelers, like fellow travelers, right right, 2:15:14.720 --> 2:15:17.000 it was obviously supposed to be Grinder, but it's it's 2:15:17.040 --> 2:15:21.480 just Grinder. It doesn't matter, but cop legally not Grinder 2:15:21.520 --> 2:15:24.720 gives NYPD full access to Joiner's account, which shows he's 2:15:24.760 --> 2:15:28.320 dating a guy named Michael Zain. And this, this whole 2:15:28.320 --> 2:15:31.080 thing is, this whole thing's so wild because if you're 2:15:31.160 --> 2:15:34.440 dating someone, you should not be primarily communicating through Grinder. 2:15:35.040 --> 2:15:38.000 And he said later they've been dating for six six months, 2:15:38.000 --> 2:15:41.520 six months, They've never texted, they're just using Grinder to chat. 2:15:41.880 --> 2:15:44.440 Whenever you go on Grinder, the goal is to get 2:15:44.440 --> 2:15:48.520 off of Grinder as soon as possible. Why why would 2:15:48.560 --> 2:15:52.880 privately texting each other instead out you as gay anymore 2:15:52.960 --> 2:15:55.360 than having an identifiable Grinder profile? 2:15:55.800 --> 2:15:57.720 Do I feel like having Grinder up on your phone 2:15:57.720 --> 2:15:59.920 and it has a very distinctive like text tone, Like 2:16:00.360 --> 2:16:02.360 that's way more likely to out you dog just text 2:16:02.400 --> 2:16:03.280 regular exactly. 2:16:03.560 --> 2:16:06.840 It makes no sense anyway. The traveler messages between Joyner 2:16:06.880 --> 2:16:10.440 and Michael Zain indicate a sort of ongoing fight or argument. 2:16:10.800 --> 2:16:15.000 Now Zain has a prior conviction for aggravated assault last year. 2:16:15.120 --> 2:16:17.280 They didn't actually, so I went back and I went 2:16:17.320 --> 2:16:19.600 back and double check this because I have some beef. 2:16:19.680 --> 2:16:20.240 He doesn't have a care. 2:16:20.600 --> 2:16:23.880 They said he was arrested for assault last year. 2:16:23.920 --> 2:16:26.280 He was just charged. He wasn't connected at my mistake, yes, 2:16:26.400 --> 2:16:28.320 but also the episode does not make that very clear. 2:16:28.960 --> 2:16:30.800 No, because I have a reason. I went back and 2:16:30.840 --> 2:16:32.040 checked because it makes no sense. 2:16:32.240 --> 2:16:35.480 So, yeah, his boyfriend was charged last year for aggravated assault. 2:16:35.680 --> 2:16:38.119 So the detectives pay him a visit because they think 2:16:38.120 --> 2:16:39.080 he's like a suspect. 2:16:39.200 --> 2:16:39.320 Right. 2:16:40.240 --> 2:16:42.600 Zain says that he didn't kill Joyner, he loved him, 2:16:42.600 --> 2:16:44.520 and that their fight on the night of the murder 2:16:44.600 --> 2:16:47.279 was about to Joiner's own self hatred and Zay believing 2:16:47.320 --> 2:16:49.080 that things would be better if they could just live 2:16:49.160 --> 2:16:51.800 openly as a couple, but Joyner was concerned that it 2:16:51.800 --> 2:16:55.360 would threaten his comedy career. Zain maintained nothing ever got 2:16:55.400 --> 2:16:58.400 physical between each other and explained that his assault charge 2:16:58.680 --> 2:17:01.600 was from trying to break up a bar fight, but 2:17:01.640 --> 2:17:04.840 when the cops arrived, they targeted Zane because he was black, 2:17:05.160 --> 2:17:09.160 to which the two NYPD detectives nod solemnly. 2:17:10.720 --> 2:17:12.960 They're like, yeah, that does sound like something we would do. 2:17:13.200 --> 2:17:16.480 Yeah, other cops are racist, but not us. They're like okay. 2:17:18.000 --> 2:17:20.600 Zain claims that Joyner wanted time alone, so he got 2:17:20.600 --> 2:17:23.000 off the train a few stops before and went home, 2:17:23.879 --> 2:17:26.440 but mentions that there was a white guy with short 2:17:26.480 --> 2:17:29.840 brown hair, bright yellow sneakers, and a hoodie with some 2:17:29.959 --> 2:17:32.959 kind of symbol on the back who was looking weirdly 2:17:33.040 --> 2:17:37.120 at him and Joiner. Security camera footage shows someone matching 2:17:37.120 --> 2:17:40.720 that description exiting the train car one stop before Joyner's 2:17:40.760 --> 2:17:44.720 body was found, and one of the detectives recognizes the symbol. 2:17:45.760 --> 2:17:49.720 We will learn more about this mysterious hoodie, sneaker, and 2:17:50.240 --> 2:18:04.880 symbol after this adbreak. So I first, I just want 2:18:04.879 --> 2:18:08.520 to describe what this symbol is. It's it is. It's 2:18:08.520 --> 2:18:15.080 this octagon with spiky corners and like two k's facing 2:18:15.120 --> 2:18:17.960 like like like one facing backwards. Yeah, one one facing 2:18:17.959 --> 2:18:20.959 forward with one facing backwards, but smushed together and the 2:18:21.080 --> 2:18:24.400 shared middle pillar is like an arrow pointing upwards. 2:18:25.720 --> 2:18:26.720 It looked like nothing to me. 2:18:26.959 --> 2:18:30.680 They tried to desire something that looked vaguely racist, but 2:18:30.720 --> 2:18:33.200 it's just not. It just it just looks dumb. 2:18:34.280 --> 2:18:36.000 It looks like I don't like a tech company logo 2:18:36.080 --> 2:18:39.280 or something like. Yeah, it is not evoke anything for me. 2:18:39.560 --> 2:18:41.680 No, it's it's not good. They're trying to make it 2:18:41.720 --> 2:18:43.920 scary with like lots of like different like angles, but 2:18:43.959 --> 2:18:46.480 like it's it's it's not. It's not scary anyway. The 2:18:46.520 --> 2:18:49.800 detectives arrive at an MMA gym in Chelsea called the 2:18:49.959 --> 2:18:53.039 Kovak Academy. It opened about a year ago and they've 2:18:53.040 --> 2:18:56.680 been peppering the neighborhood with flyers. Well, that sounds familiar, 2:18:56.840 --> 2:19:01.440 extremely accurate. The cops are graded by jacked staff member 2:19:01.480 --> 2:19:04.120 with a shaved head, and they asked to speak with 2:19:04.160 --> 2:19:07.120 the owner, and this skinhead employee says that they just 2:19:07.160 --> 2:19:09.520 missed him. But there's a picture on the wall of 2:19:09.560 --> 2:19:11.760 the owner holding a trophy and he's wearing the exact 2:19:11.760 --> 2:19:15.400 outfit in the subway security footage. The detectives are told 2:19:15.440 --> 2:19:18.120 that he was getting a cab to the airport. Now 2:19:18.320 --> 2:19:20.080 thought I thought this was gonna be like a classic 2:19:20.160 --> 2:19:24.960 Rundo move right, do some crimes flee the country, But 2:19:25.280 --> 2:19:28.080 allegedly he was actually flying to Toronto, which actually will 2:19:28.120 --> 2:19:31.000 kind of get explained later on. Cops are outside to 2:19:31.000 --> 2:19:33.000 see if they can spot him before he leaves, and 2:19:33.040 --> 2:19:35.000 they see a man in yellow sneakers and a logo 2:19:35.120 --> 2:19:38.320 emblazoned hoodie walking towards a cab. They sprint tap him 2:19:38.360 --> 2:19:41.400 on the shoulder. The MMA guy throws detectives against the car, 2:19:41.520 --> 2:19:44.520 starts fighting, not realizing their NYPD because he has like 2:19:44.560 --> 2:19:48.040 earbuds on. Cops pull their guns, then he surrenders. The 2:19:48.080 --> 2:19:52.560 owner of the gym is named Domino Dominal. It's a 2:19:52.600 --> 2:19:53.320 weird it's weird name. 2:19:53.440 --> 2:19:55.640 I think Dominall it's like and I think it's an 2:19:55.640 --> 2:19:56.240 Irish name. 2:19:56.360 --> 2:19:56.920 Dominall. 2:19:57.120 --> 2:20:01.200 Yeah, dominoll Kovak. He has four previous convictions for assault, 2:20:01.320 --> 2:20:04.520 all against black victims, with two charged as hate crimes. 2:20:05.000 --> 2:20:07.480 A detective notes that Kovak has a tattoo on his 2:20:07.600 --> 2:20:11.440 right arm of laced up combat boots with the number 2:20:11.560 --> 2:20:15.920 eighty eight, which the detective calls a white nationalist symbol. 2:20:16.879 --> 2:20:23.320 Okay, okay, here, I looked, I looked hard. I looked 2:20:23.360 --> 2:20:26.920 hard through a lot of photographs of Nazi tattoos, and 2:20:27.560 --> 2:20:30.720 the boot tattoo is not common and you only see 2:20:30.760 --> 2:20:31.920 it in skinhead culture. 2:20:32.600 --> 2:20:34.640 And this guy's not a skinhead. The actual owner of 2:20:34.640 --> 2:20:36.400 the gym does not appear to be a skinhead. He 2:20:36.440 --> 2:20:38.800 has like a big beard. He has like long brown, 2:20:38.959 --> 2:20:42.840 like longish brown, not long, but like medium shaggy brown hair. 2:20:43.480 --> 2:20:46.959 But but yeah, he has this combat boot eighty eight tattoo. 2:20:47.800 --> 2:20:49.720 That's there are a lot of Nazi tattoos and that's 2:20:49.760 --> 2:20:51.240 not the one I would have picked for this character. 2:20:51.400 --> 2:20:54.640 No, it's obviously like some lawn order writer googled like 2:20:54.800 --> 2:20:56.240 Nazi tattoo and just picked that. 2:20:56.400 --> 2:20:59.039 Like, but that's the thing is, if that's what they 2:20:59.120 --> 2:21:01.160 had done, I don't think they would have picked that, because, 2:21:01.160 --> 2:21:02.440 like I said, I was looking through all of these 2:21:02.440 --> 2:21:05.320 sort of like lists of different kinds of tattoos, yeah, 2:21:05.400 --> 2:21:09.840 by different nonprofits. There is one one picture in all 2:21:09.879 --> 2:21:12.960 of these databases of a tattoo that's even similar to this, 2:21:13.000 --> 2:21:15.880 where it's a pair of boots with the number eight 2:21:16.000 --> 2:21:17.520 on each boot. I found one. 2:21:18.080 --> 2:21:19.760 Yeah, I mean I think that that is the one 2:21:19.800 --> 2:21:22.520 they used. I think they did want to like bring 2:21:22.560 --> 2:21:25.040 in some level of like the idea of dog whistling 2:21:25.280 --> 2:21:27.800 kind of with eighty eight, which will come up later 2:21:27.840 --> 2:21:31.160 in the episode, but it's it's not well done anyway. 2:21:31.360 --> 2:21:33.959 Kovac says that he's never seen Ellis Joyner before and 2:21:34.040 --> 2:21:35.920 that the night of the murder, he was running a 2:21:36.040 --> 2:21:42.440 late night intensive training program called the Combat Academy, based 2:21:42.480 --> 2:21:47.040 on the Navy Seals training course. So many red flags 2:21:47.040 --> 2:21:50.760 are going off here. It ended around midnight. Afterwards, Kovec 2:21:50.800 --> 2:21:52.680 said he walked to his girlfriend's dear By apartment. He 2:21:52.800 --> 2:21:55.400 was never on the subway, but he explains that the 2:21:55.480 --> 2:21:58.640 gray hoodie and yellow sneakers are part of the Combat 2:21:58.680 --> 2:22:01.480 Academy uniform that all members wear. 2:22:01.920 --> 2:22:04.439 It's so important to wear matching outfits with your boys. 2:22:04.520 --> 2:22:08.080 And in one of the more accurate moments of the episode, 2:22:08.240 --> 2:22:11.000 as soon as he's in even a little trouble, he 2:22:11.080 --> 2:22:14.039 gives out all the names of the members in his group. 2:22:15.200 --> 2:22:17.440 Did not even wait for a subpoena. He's like, would 2:22:17.480 --> 2:22:18.600 you like their credit card numbers? 2:22:18.680 --> 2:22:21.480 Did not hesitate. He's like, no, absolutely, I'll give a DNA, 2:22:21.560 --> 2:22:23.400 so I'll tell I'll tell you the names all the guys. 2:22:23.400 --> 2:22:28.040 It wasn't me, I swear. So the detectives locate they're 2:22:28.080 --> 2:22:33.080 recently divorced Brandon Arnaut outside of the I like that 2:22:33.120 --> 2:22:35.360 they added the detail he was recently divorced, but this 2:22:35.520 --> 2:22:37.920 never actually come up. It does not matter. 2:22:38.200 --> 2:22:40.360 But the second, the second they walk up to him 2:22:40.360 --> 2:22:41.920 on the street, he was like, oh, my wife left me. 2:22:42.120 --> 2:22:45.800 My wife left me last year with me, so I 2:22:45.840 --> 2:22:47.920 got really into grappling with the boys because my wife 2:22:48.000 --> 2:22:48.280 left me. 2:22:48.400 --> 2:22:52.360 Yes, exactly. So they find him outside the elementary school 2:22:52.400 --> 2:22:54.400 he teaches that and which. 2:22:54.440 --> 2:22:55.720 Also never comes up again. 2:22:55.920 --> 2:23:00.920 Nope, and after very very little questioning, very came questioning, 2:23:01.280 --> 2:23:04.560 he immediately admits to killing Joyner, saying it was an 2:23:04.640 --> 2:23:07.600 accident and that Joyner was attacking a woman on the 2:23:07.640 --> 2:23:11.440 subway and Brandon here was trying to protect her. At 2:23:11.440 --> 2:23:14.160 the police station, the police say that they can't find 2:23:14.160 --> 2:23:16.879 any footage of the woman Brandon is talking about, but 2:23:17.000 --> 2:23:19.600 the defense attorney asks if the cameras were even working 2:23:19.640 --> 2:23:22.600 at every station, to which the cops roll their eyes 2:23:22.760 --> 2:23:25.800 if like really sartastical answer. They're like, oh my god, 2:23:25.879 --> 2:23:29.600 this fucking guy asking if the cameras are broken. The 2:23:29.640 --> 2:23:32.800 cops tell Brandon that they found Ellis Joyner's missing cell 2:23:32.800 --> 2:23:36.160 phone in his gym locker. They searched his house, they 2:23:36.200 --> 2:23:38.480 didn't find anything, but they got his They got a 2:23:38.480 --> 2:23:40.440 warn for his gym locker and found the cell phone, 2:23:40.560 --> 2:23:43.360 and they alleged that he stole it after he realized 2:23:43.400 --> 2:23:46.840 that Joyner recorded a video of the fight that ended 2:23:46.920 --> 2:23:49.320 up with Joiner being strangled to death. 2:23:49.800 --> 2:23:52.240 And that's something we call consciousness of guilt. 2:23:52.840 --> 2:23:56.160 The defense attorney ends the interview immediately as soon as 2:23:56.160 --> 2:23:56.720 they bring this. 2:23:56.800 --> 2:23:59.360 Up, like, why wouldn't you tell your lawyer that tell 2:23:59.440 --> 2:24:01.720 him that before you go in the search history and 2:24:01.720 --> 2:24:04.400 Brandon's laptop shows him trying to figure out how to 2:24:04.480 --> 2:24:06.400 unlock the phone to delete the video. 2:24:07.280 --> 2:24:10.360 Now, this part's a little bit odd. The cops debate 2:24:10.720 --> 2:24:13.800 even though quote he admits to killing Joyner, I'm not 2:24:13.840 --> 2:24:17.039 sure we have enough evidence to charge unquote, which is 2:24:17.560 --> 2:24:20.800 not true. You have so much evidence, you have a confession, 2:24:21.200 --> 2:24:23.039 you have so much evidence to charge. 2:24:23.040 --> 2:24:25.560 This is so bizarre, Like how often do you have 2:24:25.600 --> 2:24:29.279 a recording of a murder happening and then the guy admitting. 2:24:28.920 --> 2:24:33.000 That it admits, Yeah, it's ridiculous. They charge on far 2:24:33.200 --> 2:24:33.800 far less. 2:24:34.200 --> 2:24:36.320 They have that conversation in the room and they're like, well, 2:24:36.360 --> 2:24:37.800 we can charge him or we can let him go. 2:24:38.120 --> 2:24:40.200 He's like, I mean, I understand a conversation about like 2:24:40.560 --> 2:24:43.640 is this murder too, is this manslaughter? Yeah, but it's 2:24:43.640 --> 2:24:45.520 not a question of whether or not you're charging with something. 2:24:45.560 --> 2:24:46.840 You're charging him with something. 2:24:47.160 --> 2:24:47.360 Yeah. 2:24:47.760 --> 2:24:50.280 I mean, I think there's a reason actually why they 2:24:50.280 --> 2:24:52.400 had this conversation, which I will get to at the 2:24:52.440 --> 2:24:54.720 end of the episode if you remind me. I think 2:24:54.840 --> 2:24:56.879 there's a reason why they discussed this option of letting 2:24:56.959 --> 2:24:59.520 him go versus charging him. But at this point we 2:24:59.600 --> 2:25:02.520 now swa to the law half of the episode after 2:25:02.600 --> 2:25:05.160 we finished the order half. I don't know why these 2:25:05.160 --> 2:25:07.400 are reversed because they do the police part first, then 2:25:07.440 --> 2:25:10.200 the court part. But whatever, it should be called order 2:25:10.240 --> 2:25:12.680 and law, which just guess, I guess, just doesn't sound good. 2:25:13.160 --> 2:25:16.800 So a front page story in the legally not New 2:25:16.840 --> 2:25:20.000 York Post is being passed around the DA's office. It 2:25:20.080 --> 2:25:24.640 reads self defense or racist killing hero or zero. 2:25:26.440 --> 2:25:28.040 A recurring story in New York City. 2:25:28.600 --> 2:25:31.240 The prosecutor who's played by Hugh Dancy I'm just gonna 2:25:31.240 --> 2:25:33.360 call Hugh Dancy because they don't know his character's name, 2:25:33.720 --> 2:25:37.280 states that half the city believes Brandon's self defense story 2:25:37.360 --> 2:25:39.480 and the other half just to sees a white man 2:25:39.600 --> 2:25:42.680 killing an unarmed black man. That is what happened, a 2:25:42.720 --> 2:25:45.680 litmus test for what people want to believe, says the 2:25:45.680 --> 2:25:47.520 main DA. 2:25:47.640 --> 2:25:50.400 I think at this point the writers in that room 2:25:50.440 --> 2:25:53.720 are just tired. Oh yeah, so like you can only 2:25:53.760 --> 2:25:56.240 do so much cocaine before it just like stops working. 2:25:57.520 --> 2:25:59.640 The DA's office says that Brandon held Joiner in a 2:25:59.720 --> 2:26:02.800 choke for so long after he was unconscious that even 2:26:02.840 --> 2:26:05.840 if it started as self defense, it escalated to homicide. 2:26:05.920 --> 2:26:08.800 They debate between manslaughter and murder, saying the former would 2:26:08.800 --> 2:26:11.840 be easier to win with a clear use of excessive force, 2:26:11.879 --> 2:26:14.520 regardless of Brandon's story of trying to help the girl. 2:26:15.080 --> 2:26:17.520 But based on the cell phone video, the DA decides 2:26:17.560 --> 2:26:20.520 to pursue a murder case due to a quote depraved 2:26:20.640 --> 2:26:24.959 indifference to human life unquote displayed by choking someone for 2:26:25.320 --> 2:26:27.800 full three minutes after falling unconscious. 2:26:28.000 --> 2:26:30.359 I'm not sure if you mentioned so. They found the phone, 2:26:30.800 --> 2:26:33.320 So the victim had been recording the altercation and then 2:26:33.360 --> 2:26:34.920 it got knocked out of his hand, and so it 2:26:35.040 --> 2:26:37.680 was recording audio of the murder, but not video. 2:26:38.720 --> 2:26:39.879 I'm going to get to that once we get to 2:26:39.879 --> 2:26:43.160 the court scene. Hugh Dancy is nervous about Brandon's literal 2:26:43.360 --> 2:26:46.359 white night story and that he has no history of violence, 2:26:46.720 --> 2:26:50.240 but the DA insists on second degree murder, saying, quote, 2:26:50.560 --> 2:26:54.520 this is George Floyd all over again in what way? 2:26:55.440 --> 2:26:57.320 And I'm sure as hell not going to end up 2:26:57.360 --> 2:27:00.200 on the wrong side of it unquote, Which does ut 2:27:00.240 --> 2:27:01.680 make the DA sound like a good guy, just makes 2:27:01.720 --> 2:27:03.280 him sound like he doesn't want to have like a 2:27:03.320 --> 2:27:05.199 bad press. It comes off as very slimy. 2:27:05.760 --> 2:27:07.360 I you know, I said, I watch a lave of 2:27:07.400 --> 2:27:09.560 Law and Order, and so I have seen probably a 2:27:09.640 --> 2:27:11.520 thousand hours of it, but I haven't watched it in 2:27:11.560 --> 2:27:13.680 several years, so I don't know if maybe the tone 2:27:14.240 --> 2:27:16.720 has evolved a little bit, but I got the impression that, like, 2:27:17.120 --> 2:27:19.120 I don't know, maybe this is a guy who's consistently 2:27:19.120 --> 2:27:21.280 worried about getting re elected, right because his job is 2:27:21.280 --> 2:27:23.440 an elected position. Yeah, just doesn't want the press. 2:27:23.640 --> 2:27:24.039 Yeah yeah. 2:27:24.120 --> 2:27:24.840 Yeah. 2:27:24.920 --> 2:27:27.600 So finally we cut to court, the prosecution plays the 2:27:27.640 --> 2:27:30.800 cell phone video. Seconds after Joyner starts recording on his phone, 2:27:30.840 --> 2:27:33.840 Brandon knocks it out of his hand, landing camera side down, 2:27:34.120 --> 2:27:37.039 continuing to record only audio of the struggle. We hear 2:27:37.040 --> 2:27:40.480 Brandon putting Joyner into a choke hold, Joyner repeatedly saying 2:27:40.560 --> 2:27:43.320 he can't breathe, before appearing to pass out, followed by 2:27:43.320 --> 2:27:46.080 three minutes of silence up until Brandon releases his arm 2:27:46.200 --> 2:27:48.800 from around Joyner's neck. He picks up the phone, sees 2:27:48.840 --> 2:27:52.000 it's recording, and turns it off. As the video is playing, 2:27:52.320 --> 2:27:54.800 the prosecutor and the jury are all shaking their heads 2:27:54.800 --> 2:27:56.920 so that we know that they don't agree with it. 2:27:58.520 --> 2:28:01.240 Hugh Dancy questions the medical examiner, who explains it after 2:28:01.320 --> 2:28:03.280 Joiner lost consciousness, he could no longer pose an a 2:28:03.320 --> 2:28:05.960 lethal threat to the defendant, who continued to talk donor 2:28:06.080 --> 2:28:09.039 for three more minutes. The defense suggests that a surge 2:28:09.040 --> 2:28:12.840 of adrenaline distorted time and awareness of his surroundings, which 2:28:12.879 --> 2:28:14.640 in the panic of the moment, made brand did not 2:28:14.720 --> 2:28:19.440 realize Joiner lost consciousness for that long. Ellis, Joiner's secret boyfriend, 2:28:19.480 --> 2:28:22.720 testifies next. He says the defendant was weirdly staring at 2:28:22.800 --> 2:28:26.480 Joyner and himself, and that Brandon moved aggressively to step 2:28:26.560 --> 2:28:29.200 in Zayne's way. When he was trying to exit the 2:28:29.200 --> 2:28:32.080 train and said, quote unquote watch yourself in a quote 2:28:32.120 --> 2:28:36.800 unquote racist tone. The defense brings up Zayne's past aggravated 2:28:36.800 --> 2:28:39.680 assault charge to cast doubt on his testimony. 2:28:40.080 --> 2:28:42.520 Okay, they can't do that. They cannot take they cannot 2:28:42.600 --> 2:28:45.400 you cannot do that. There is a very limited set 2:28:45.400 --> 2:28:48.040 of circumstances in which you can bring up a witness's 2:28:48.360 --> 2:28:50.880 criminal history, and this isn't it. 2:28:51.320 --> 2:28:53.880 There is a lot of funky law decisions going on 2:28:53.959 --> 2:28:54.879 in this episode. 2:28:55.000 --> 2:28:55.879 You can't do that. 2:28:57.240 --> 2:29:01.480 Speaking of a funky law decisions, while actually speaking of 2:29:01.640 --> 2:29:16.440 speaking of this ad break, we are back speaking of 2:29:18.440 --> 2:29:23.120 troubling law decisions. The defense calls a surprise female witness, 2:29:23.240 --> 2:29:25.680 Rebecca Laski, something you cannot do. 2:29:26.400 --> 2:29:28.600 I looked it up. The average time to take a 2:29:28.600 --> 2:29:31.280 felony to trial in New York is a year, So 2:29:31.440 --> 2:29:34.840 from time of death to this going to trial, best 2:29:34.879 --> 2:29:37.480 case scenario probably like a fucking year. They had a 2:29:37.560 --> 2:29:39.320 year to find this woman and she shows up on 2:29:39.320 --> 2:29:40.279 the last day of the trial. 2:29:41.000 --> 2:29:44.200 It's definitely not the last day because if. 2:29:43.560 --> 2:29:45.760 This was you know, this is obviously sort of mimicking 2:29:45.840 --> 2:29:48.160 the what was his name, Daniel Penny. 2:29:48.600 --> 2:29:50.680 Yes, that's it's always. 2:29:50.400 --> 2:29:52.200 Like making the Daniel Penny caase like this would have 2:29:52.240 --> 2:29:54.560 been on the New York Post like every day leading 2:29:54.640 --> 2:29:55.320 up to the trial. 2:29:55.360 --> 2:29:58.960 This woman would have been located. The murder happened in January. 2:29:59.200 --> 2:30:01.800 The trial star I believe in early March, and lasts 2:30:01.800 --> 2:30:05.199 about two weeks according to the timeline of the TV show, 2:30:05.480 --> 2:30:09.760 So that's not how it works anyway. Rebecca Laski, the 2:30:09.800 --> 2:30:13.119 female the surprise female witness. She testifies that she accidentally 2:30:13.160 --> 2:30:16.640 bumped into Joyner, who quote unquote appeared mentally disturbed and 2:30:16.720 --> 2:30:22.760 was making aggressive grunting noises aggressive grunting noises before lunging 2:30:22.800 --> 2:30:25.000 at her. She then claims Joyner reached into his pocket 2:30:25.040 --> 2:30:26.640 and she was scared he had a knife or something, 2:30:26.879 --> 2:30:29.640 so she screamed. She screamed for help, and Brandon Arnau 2:30:29.720 --> 2:30:32.560 saved her. She testified that mister Arnau grabbed Joyner away 2:30:32.560 --> 2:30:35.560 from her and the two men started fighting. Laski calls 2:30:35.600 --> 2:30:40.160 Brandon a hero, and a jury looks on inquisitively. After 2:30:40.200 --> 2:30:43.920 the female witnesses quote unquote compelling testimony, the prosecutor talks 2:30:43.920 --> 2:30:46.959 with the DA about offering a manslaughter plea but the 2:30:47.040 --> 2:30:49.440 DA is steadfast since the video clip of a man 2:30:49.480 --> 2:30:51.640 begging for his life and being choked to death for 2:30:51.680 --> 2:30:55.520 three minutes after falling unconscious has not actually changed. Hugh 2:30:55.640 --> 2:30:58.680 Dancy remarks that new context for the video isn't really 2:30:58.720 --> 2:31:01.840 in their favor to it. The DA just replies, just 2:31:01.840 --> 2:31:04.400 because a white woman saw Joyner as a threat doesn't 2:31:04.400 --> 2:31:08.400 make it true, like okay, based in New York, DA, 2:31:09.680 --> 2:31:13.760 I guess. Back in court, the prosecution asks Rebecca Laski 2:31:13.760 --> 2:31:16.320 if she was actually present when a quote, the defendant 2:31:16.440 --> 2:31:19.320 choked the life out of a joiner unquote. She clarifies 2:31:19.360 --> 2:31:21.360 that the train stopped as the men were still fighting. 2:31:21.760 --> 2:31:24.360 Joyner was reaching into his pocket. She was scared that 2:31:24.400 --> 2:31:25.440 he maybe had a knife. 2:31:25.640 --> 2:31:25.920 Again. 2:31:26.640 --> 2:31:28.680 He's probably reaching for his inhaler and. 2:31:28.760 --> 2:31:31.600 Hailer or his cell phone to record this fight. She 2:31:31.800 --> 2:31:36.520 curiously mentions, though, that after Brandon grabbed Joyner's arm and 2:31:36.560 --> 2:31:40.280 the fight started, Brandon kept yelling at Joyner. He was 2:31:40.360 --> 2:31:43.560 yelling to quote, surrender and that he was bleeding, and 2:31:43.600 --> 2:31:47.000 that he was dirty or fighting dirty. I don't really 2:31:47.040 --> 2:31:49.400 remember the exact words unquote. 2:31:49.800 --> 2:31:51.959 This destroyed me. I almost turned it off. 2:31:52.000 --> 2:31:54.840 Everyone in the courtroom gets a really funny look when 2:31:54.840 --> 2:32:00.039 she meant when she mentions the word dirty. So we 2:32:00.040 --> 2:32:01.960 we will get to this in a sec Under questioning, 2:32:02.080 --> 2:32:04.360 Last admits that she never saw any weapon of any kind, 2:32:04.480 --> 2:32:07.480 let alone a knife, and Hugh Dancy suggests that after 2:32:07.600 --> 2:32:09.959 being attacked by a fellow comedian and having an argument 2:32:09.959 --> 2:32:13.160 with its boyfriend, Joyner was probably suffering from an asthma 2:32:13.160 --> 2:32:15.959 attack triggered by high stress. He wasn't mentally ill, he 2:32:16.040 --> 2:32:19.560 wasn't acting aggressive or grunting in a threatening manner. He 2:32:19.600 --> 2:32:22.040 was stuck in a subway car having an asthma attack. 2:32:22.400 --> 2:32:26.800 And he addresses Laski saying, quote, you saw a scary 2:32:26.879 --> 2:32:32.240 black man making a noise. Objection Uh sustained, So yeah. 2:32:32.120 --> 2:32:35.039 But they didn't but they objected there. But then when 2:32:35.040 --> 2:32:37.800 he says like, and isn't it true that his behavior 2:32:37.840 --> 2:32:40.400 was consistent with an asthma attack? Nobody objected to that 2:32:40.480 --> 2:32:42.800 she can't offer She can't offer a medical opinion. 2:32:43.080 --> 2:32:46.680 Rebecca Laski, a ballet dancer, not a medical professional, cannot 2:32:46.720 --> 2:32:51.040 offer an opinion on what what his medical symptoms can 2:32:51.080 --> 2:32:51.640 be consistent with. 2:32:52.000 --> 2:32:53.720 When she starts getting upset, saying like, oh my God, 2:32:53.720 --> 2:32:55.800 this is all my fault, Like this happened because of me. 2:32:56.000 --> 2:32:59.760 Like at that point, no prosecutor would have allowed her 2:32:59.800 --> 2:33:03.560 to continue speaking. He would have said, just answer the questions, 2:33:03.720 --> 2:33:05.760 just answer the questions. He would not have let her 2:33:05.879 --> 2:33:08.640 get emotional up there and blame it like that's that's poison. 2:33:08.959 --> 2:33:13.680 Yeah, but it makes not very good television, thrilling television. 2:33:13.800 --> 2:33:16.720 So after court for the day, the prosecution wonders if 2:33:16.760 --> 2:33:20.720 Brandon allegedly saying something about blood and dirt could have 2:33:20.879 --> 2:33:25.240 really been quote the Nazi slogan blood and. 2:33:25.160 --> 2:33:28.480 Soil no no, no gere no no. 2:33:29.120 --> 2:33:33.119 The new battle cry of white nationalist groups unquote. 2:33:33.720 --> 2:33:34.520 See here's the thing. 2:33:35.000 --> 2:33:37.480 So this is where the episode goes fully, fully off 2:33:37.480 --> 2:33:37.920 the rails. 2:33:38.240 --> 2:33:40.240 So like when I was watching her testimony, she was 2:33:40.280 --> 2:33:41.879 like he said something about like you know, he was 2:33:41.920 --> 2:33:46.000 bleeding and like he was dirty. At no point did 2:33:46.080 --> 2:33:50.119 my mind no connect that too. And I quite literally 2:33:50.200 --> 2:33:53.360 just yesterday was watching videos of guys yelling blood and soil. 2:33:53.400 --> 2:33:55.080 This is something that's on my mind. 2:33:55.920 --> 2:33:59.680 It is a ridiculous jump. It's not there because yeah, 2:33:59.680 --> 2:34:03.680 he's yelling something about like bleeding because his lip was bleeding, 2:34:04.080 --> 2:34:08.440 and sure, a remark about being dirty could be could 2:34:08.440 --> 2:34:14.120 be construed as as like a racist remark. But the 2:34:14.240 --> 2:34:18.039 jump from bleeding and dirty to blood and dirt to 2:34:18.120 --> 2:34:20.680 blood and soil is fucking baffling. 2:34:21.200 --> 2:34:24.240 It's just not even the same words. But not to 2:34:24.320 --> 2:34:26.880 nippick here, not to Nipick. I just don't know that 2:34:26.959 --> 2:34:29.360 blood and soil would have been the chant he chose 2:34:29.400 --> 2:34:30.960 as he was doing the choking. 2:34:31.320 --> 2:34:34.240 It's bizarre he would have said a slur. Hugh Dancy 2:34:34.320 --> 2:34:37.000 is also skeptical. None of the interviews with Brandon's family 2:34:37.040 --> 2:34:40.320 or co workers indicated anything about racial extremism, but the 2:34:40.360 --> 2:34:43.440 other prosecutor suggests that they look into his fitness gym, 2:34:43.560 --> 2:34:47.400 the Covak Academy, as the owner quote has ties to 2:34:47.480 --> 2:34:49.600 a few white nationalist organizations. 2:34:50.040 --> 2:34:50.720 Uh oh. 2:34:50.959 --> 2:34:53.400 The DA's office decides to investigate further. They arrive at 2:34:53.400 --> 2:34:55.680 the gym as the buff Skinhead staff member from the 2:34:55.680 --> 2:34:57.600 start of the episode is closing up for the day. 2:34:58.160 --> 2:35:00.959 He claims to not know Brandon very well, and when 2:35:01.000 --> 2:35:02.920 he's asked if he's ever heard Brandon say something that 2:35:02.959 --> 2:35:06.959 could be interpreted as racist, he responds by saying, I'm sorry, 2:35:07.000 --> 2:35:10.640 but I can't help you. The prosecutor makes a snydermark 2:35:10.680 --> 2:35:13.800 and starts to leave, and the man quietly says, look, 2:35:14.000 --> 2:35:16.560 I can't get into details, but let's just say you're 2:35:16.600 --> 2:35:19.240 heading down the right path. But I can't help you 2:35:19.240 --> 2:35:21.440 because it would blow my cover unquote. 2:35:22.200 --> 2:35:25.000 WHOA, Oh my gosh. 2:35:25.120 --> 2:35:29.039 He's a cop infiltrating the Nazi fight club. I mean, 2:35:29.040 --> 2:35:32.200 there are some cops in there, right. I don't know 2:35:32.240 --> 2:35:37.320 if I would say they're infiltrating. The next scene is 2:35:37.360 --> 2:35:40.160 the funniest in the whole episode. After stumbling onto the 2:35:40.240 --> 2:35:43.879 undercover operation, the head DA arrives at the NYPD counter 2:35:44.000 --> 2:35:47.800 Terrorism Bureau as they have info pertaining to the prosecution's 2:35:47.879 --> 2:35:51.840 murder case. But the counter Terrorism Bureau explains their scope 2:35:51.959 --> 2:35:54.720 is much larger than this one case and they have 2:35:54.840 --> 2:35:57.959 quote had their eye on Kovac for a while now. 2:35:58.560 --> 2:36:01.039 They explained to the DA that his MMA gym is 2:36:01.080 --> 2:36:05.040 actually a quote active club part of an international network 2:36:05.080 --> 2:36:08.920 of a white supremacist sleeper cells that all front as 2:36:09.120 --> 2:36:16.320 MMA style gyms unquote. So okay, okay, okay. White nationalists 2:36:16.480 --> 2:36:20.680 have been using MMA gyms to front for activities for decades. 2:36:21.160 --> 2:36:22.560 I just found a new one the other day. 2:36:22.680 --> 2:36:25.879 This does happen. This does not mean they are active clubs, 2:36:26.000 --> 2:36:30.080 nor do active clubs have to be MMA gyms. These 2:36:30.080 --> 2:36:33.720 are these things are venn diagrams that can sometimes overlap, 2:36:33.840 --> 2:36:37.000 but not always. The version of active clubs we see 2:36:37.080 --> 2:36:40.679 in this episode now starts getting pretty fictitious. 2:36:41.080 --> 2:36:43.720 It Immediately first, I was like, almost like a fairly 2:36:43.840 --> 2:36:46.520 reasonable like, yeah, like we do have active clubs at 2:36:46.560 --> 2:36:48.880 MMA gyms, that's the thing they were like and their 2:36:48.920 --> 2:36:51.279 stockpiling weapons to do a January sixth. 2:36:51.200 --> 2:36:56.199 Yeah, so what what? So they say they've identified over 2:36:56.320 --> 2:37:00.640 thirty active clubs across nine states and several provinces of Canada. 2:37:00.720 --> 2:37:05.480 So nine states far too low. There's active clubs in 2:37:05.560 --> 2:37:08.600 way more states than that. There's also not necessarily like 2:37:09.040 --> 2:37:12.160 if you have thirty active clubs across nine states, that's 2:37:12.160 --> 2:37:14.720 a bizarre ratio. It means there's a lot of active 2:37:14.720 --> 2:37:16.800 clubs in like a few states, which generally isn't how 2:37:16.800 --> 2:37:19.680 it kind of ends up being there's maybe like one 2:37:19.760 --> 2:37:22.800 or two, maybe three like per state. We don't fully know, 2:37:22.959 --> 2:37:25.520 but I will give them points for adding in the 2:37:25.600 --> 2:37:28.840 Canadian chapters, which most people kind of overlook, but. 2:37:28.800 --> 2:37:31.720 Also like, why is the NYPD investigating something happening in 2:37:31.800 --> 2:37:33.160 nine states. That's FEDS. 2:37:33.879 --> 2:37:36.600 To be fair, that is fully accurate. The NYPD counter 2:37:36.720 --> 2:37:39.320 Terrorism Bureau investigates things all over the world. 2:37:39.840 --> 2:37:41.800 But it's like just let if it's interstate, let the 2:37:41.800 --> 2:37:42.600 FEDS handle it. 2:37:42.840 --> 2:37:46.200 Their jurisdiction is fucking bonkers. They're like the third biggest 2:37:46.200 --> 2:37:49.360 that counter terrorism like law enforcement group in the entire world. 2:37:49.520 --> 2:37:51.560 It's like one of the world's largest standing armies. 2:37:51.760 --> 2:37:54.640 Yeah, no, it is. It is absurd, they say. Quote 2:37:54.800 --> 2:37:57.920 the clubs operate as recruitment centers. They lure in a 2:37:57.959 --> 2:38:00.480 young white men under the guise of getting fit while 2:38:00.480 --> 2:38:04.920 indoctrinating them in racist ideology and training them in military 2:38:04.959 --> 2:38:09.520 combat unquote. Now, the training that people receive in active 2:38:09.520 --> 2:38:14.600 clubs very often does not equal military combat training. In fact, 2:38:14.879 --> 2:38:18.920 they often have very poor fitness regiments and really bad 2:38:18.959 --> 2:38:20.120 advice on how to get fit. 2:38:20.640 --> 2:38:24.000 I mean, if getting hooked on gear and rolling around 2:38:24.040 --> 2:38:26.879 on the floor shirtless with the boys is military combat training, 2:38:26.920 --> 2:38:27.640 then absolutely. 2:38:28.000 --> 2:38:30.600 If you look at the there's a pretty sensive docks 2:38:30.640 --> 2:38:32.600 of some of the active club members in the state 2:38:32.640 --> 2:38:37.840 of Georgia last year, and they were their fitness information 2:38:38.040 --> 2:38:40.800 was not up to stuff. They were mostly seventeen year 2:38:40.800 --> 2:38:43.560 olds who were arguing about different ways to like lift 2:38:43.600 --> 2:38:48.000 better anyway. Lawn Order says that these active clubs are 2:38:48.120 --> 2:38:53.039 quote trying to build an army. It's the new face 2:38:53.080 --> 2:38:58.400 of hate unquote a very kind of retro slogan. We 2:38:58.400 --> 2:39:00.200 don't really use that anymore, but if you look like 2:39:00.280 --> 2:39:04.000 ten years ago or like, yeah, around ten years ago, 2:39:04.040 --> 2:39:05.840 you would see a lot of like liberal articles talking 2:39:05.879 --> 2:39:09.199 about the new face of hate. Quote no more white 2:39:09.240 --> 2:39:12.279 sheets or burning crosses. They've adapted and created a facade 2:39:12.320 --> 2:39:17.520 to mask their racist beliefs unquote. So the DA wants 2:39:17.560 --> 2:39:20.320 their undercover guy to testify to secure the conviction against 2:39:20.400 --> 2:39:22.640 one of the active club members, but the counter Terrorism 2:39:22.640 --> 2:39:25.199 Bureau doesn't want to blow their nine month undercover operation 2:39:25.440 --> 2:39:29.560 even for a murder conviction, as they've quote recently received 2:39:29.640 --> 2:39:32.840 credible intel that Kovak is now stock pile a leg 2:39:32.879 --> 2:39:36.880 of firearms and explosive materials unquote. 2:39:36.760 --> 2:39:38.680 So they should probably go ahead and arrest him for that. 2:39:38.879 --> 2:39:42.480 Huh yeah, yeah, right, it's time to move I guess 2:39:42.600 --> 2:39:44.959 now they're combining like active club stuff with some like 2:39:45.080 --> 2:39:48.240 Adam Woffen and militia stuff, just like throat, just just 2:39:48.280 --> 2:39:52.920 smushing together all these different groups into one like mega boogeyman. 2:39:53.040 --> 2:39:57.000 I guess quote these men are terrorists. They're capable of 2:39:57.040 --> 2:40:01.840 significant violence unquote. So the counter Terrorism Burero suggests that 2:40:01.840 --> 2:40:04.240 the DA takes a quote big picture of view of 2:40:04.240 --> 2:40:07.240 the situation unquote. So the DA breaks the news to 2:40:07.280 --> 2:40:09.880 the prosecution team that the undercover will be unable to 2:40:09.920 --> 2:40:14.440 testify because the active club is quote planning a coordinated 2:40:14.520 --> 2:40:19.359 attack along the lines of the January sixth insurrection unquote. 2:40:19.920 --> 2:40:22.800 So you should probably like the undercover operation is over, 2:40:22.879 --> 2:40:25.560 Like if you have credible intel that there's an imminent attack, 2:40:25.600 --> 2:40:26.680 like the operation is over. 2:40:26.959 --> 2:40:30.240 So also like this is just not what active clubs do, 2:40:30.360 --> 2:40:33.039 Like this is like they don't care about J six. 2:40:33.120 --> 2:40:35.440 That's like a proud boy thing and some militia dude. 2:40:35.480 --> 2:40:38.039 It's like most active club members would be like, no, 2:40:38.240 --> 2:40:40.039 all of the J six people are like fucking like 2:40:40.400 --> 2:40:44.400 conservative like Trump Trump, brain dead losers. 2:40:44.400 --> 2:40:45.160 They're like, it's. 2:40:45.280 --> 2:40:47.400 Really that thing a couple of years ago where those 2:40:47.440 --> 2:40:49.879 members of the base were arrested right before they were 2:40:49.959 --> 2:40:52.040 going to try to kick off the Civil War by 2:40:52.080 --> 2:40:54.480 inciting they were going to shoot into the crowd at 2:40:54.480 --> 2:40:56.960 the gun rally in Richmond at the Virginia Gun and 2:40:56.959 --> 2:40:59.320 then the plan was that everyone would start shooting each other. 2:40:59.320 --> 2:40:59.480 You know. 2:40:59.600 --> 2:41:01.360 It's like, so they had a pretty large stockpile of 2:41:01.360 --> 2:41:03.480 weapons that one of the guys was Canadians, So like 2:41:03.520 --> 2:41:07.160 maybe they got mixed up with that the base. 2:41:07.320 --> 2:41:10.240 Yeah, like they're combining elements of the bass Adam offfin 2:41:10.320 --> 2:41:14.080 active clubs, proud boys into this like mega boogeyman, right, 2:41:14.480 --> 2:41:18.400 just a villain. The DA says that this new attack 2:41:18.440 --> 2:41:22.280 will quote only be more violent and without advance warning 2:41:22.400 --> 2:41:22.959 this time. 2:41:24.280 --> 2:41:25.680 What do you mean without advanced warning? 2:41:26.120 --> 2:41:31.760 He just says, no, right, right, let this happen. 2:41:33.000 --> 2:41:35.080 The greater good is for us to allow this to occur. 2:41:35.240 --> 2:41:38.039 The undercover investigation cannot be jepridized in any way. But 2:41:38.160 --> 2:41:40.640 as this looks more and more like a racially targeted murder, 2:41:40.879 --> 2:41:43.520 according to the DA, the DA's office is to find 2:41:43.560 --> 2:41:46.039 a different way to show that Brandon is racist. Quote 2:41:46.080 --> 2:41:49.920 it's for the greater good a phrase, a phrase that 2:41:50.000 --> 2:41:54.200 Hugh Dancy says helps justify a lot of otherwise unjustifiable positions. 2:41:54.360 --> 2:41:56.920 And true, they started getting into this kind of debate 2:41:56.959 --> 2:41:59.600 around like the ethics of like doing a long term 2:41:59.680 --> 2:42:03.640 infla tration operation versus seeing like a like like an 2:42:03.680 --> 2:42:06.240 active like like seeing an active threat, or like seeing 2:42:06.240 --> 2:42:11.400 a way to like currently clamp down on a like 2:42:11.640 --> 2:42:13.720 arm of an organization, even if they can't get the 2:42:13.720 --> 2:42:16.080 whole thing yet, and they have this debate like is 2:42:16.120 --> 2:42:17.879 it is it better to like do like a long 2:42:18.000 --> 2:42:20.600 term strategy or to like just like chop off as 2:42:20.600 --> 2:42:23.480 many limbs as we can as we go on and again, 2:42:23.560 --> 2:42:25.400 it doesn't make sense because if they have all this 2:42:25.480 --> 2:42:27.600 credible intel, why not just like get them right now? 2:42:27.640 --> 2:42:32.160 But like what I wrap it up? So back in court, 2:42:33.120 --> 2:42:36.560 mister Kovak is on the stand. Hugh Dancy asks if 2:42:36.560 --> 2:42:40.040 he and the defendant have ever discussed quote, racial ideology, 2:42:41.280 --> 2:42:44.240 to which Kovac says, I don't know what that means. 2:42:45.320 --> 2:42:48.240 Believable the Probible. I mean, yeah, that is the correct 2:42:48.280 --> 2:42:51.960 answer for this situation. The prosecutor elaborates racial purity into 2:42:52.040 --> 2:42:54.600 racial marriage, what role black people should or shouldn't have 2:42:54.600 --> 2:42:58.640 in society, and Kovac once again feigns ignorance. Hugh Dancy 2:42:58.680 --> 2:43:01.640 asks about Kovacs eighty eight to tattoo being a Nazi 2:43:01.680 --> 2:43:05.440 symbol and Kovec just says, I don't know, I just 2:43:05.480 --> 2:43:08.840 like the number eighty eight, and then he doesn't. 2:43:08.560 --> 2:43:12.360 The prosecutor doesn't explain to the jury, no, does it 2:43:12.440 --> 2:43:13.320 means Kyle Hitler. 2:43:13.400 --> 2:43:15.840 He just he just moves on. Never once in the 2:43:15.879 --> 2:43:19.320 episode is it explained that the eighty eight symbol me 2:43:19.600 --> 2:43:20.959 is a reference to high Hitler. 2:43:21.280 --> 2:43:24.040 Never ever actually say it, never say it. Yeah. 2:43:24.200 --> 2:43:27.480 Dancy does bring up mister Kodak's for prior convictions for 2:43:27.480 --> 2:43:30.039 assaulting black men, two of which were charged as hay crimes, 2:43:30.160 --> 2:43:32.400 and Kovec just says, that was a long time ago. 2:43:33.560 --> 2:43:35.720 And now see, I do want to say, because you 2:43:35.959 --> 2:43:37.400 made such a big deal about it earlier, about how 2:43:37.440 --> 2:43:40.040 you can't ask about prior convictions. I think in this 2:43:40.120 --> 2:43:42.520 case it is an allowable exception because it goes to 2:43:42.720 --> 2:43:45.600 direct impeachment, Like if he said, like, yeah, you know, 2:43:45.680 --> 2:43:48.480 he made a statement himself about how he's not racist, 2:43:48.480 --> 2:43:50.760 and you say, well, you have a hate crime conviction. 2:43:51.080 --> 2:43:52.880 And later in the court room he says that he 2:43:53.040 --> 2:43:55.800 of course obviously doesn't have any problems with black people 2:43:55.840 --> 2:43:59.480 when being a questioned by the defense attorney, but Hugh 2:43:59.560 --> 2:44:04.240 Dancy pulls up Kovak's social media accounts, all of which 2:44:04.320 --> 2:44:09.640 contained the phrase blood and soil in his bio objection relevance. 2:44:10.160 --> 2:44:13.400 The prosecution then argues that Rebecculaski's testimony of hearing something 2:44:13.400 --> 2:44:15.760 about blood and dirt may have been a vague recollection 2:44:15.879 --> 2:44:17.119 of hearing blood and soil. 2:44:17.600 --> 2:44:17.640 No. 2:44:18.240 --> 2:44:21.000 Dancy describes bud and soil as a Nazi reference to 2:44:21.120 --> 2:44:23.600 a racially uniform society. 2:44:24.520 --> 2:44:26.280 The jury would not have been allowed to hear this. 2:44:26.400 --> 2:44:28.480 This happened outside the presence of the jury. 2:44:29.040 --> 2:44:31.959 Kovaca says, the phrase means that you're proud of who 2:44:32.000 --> 2:44:35.000 you are and where you come from. Kovac taught the 2:44:35.040 --> 2:44:36.879 defendant how to fight, how to do a choke hold, 2:44:37.200 --> 2:44:39.720 so to end the questioning, Hugh Dancy asks if he 2:44:39.800 --> 2:44:44.920 also taught the defendant to hate black people. Objection objection, 2:44:46.520 --> 2:44:50.160 all right, So, The defense's closing argument frames the subway 2:44:50.280 --> 2:44:54.080 as a dangerous, lawless zone and Brandon as a peaceful 2:44:54.120 --> 2:44:57.160 elementary school teacher who has never gotten as much as 2:44:57.200 --> 2:44:58.400 a speeding ticket. 2:44:58.840 --> 2:44:59.960 Probably because he doesn't dry. 2:45:00.480 --> 2:45:03.600 Yeah, because you live in New York. Uh who saw 2:45:03.640 --> 2:45:06.400 someone in danger and bravely decided to step up and 2:45:06.400 --> 2:45:10.760 do something. The prosecution's closing argument frames Brandon Arnaut as 2:45:10.800 --> 2:45:13.720 a closeted racist who saw an opportunity to put his 2:45:13.720 --> 2:45:16.680 white supremacist ideology into practice in a situation where he 2:45:16.720 --> 2:45:18.959 thought he could get away with it. Quote. People like 2:45:19.000 --> 2:45:21.640 mister Arnaud keep their bigotry buttoned up. They only discuss 2:45:21.640 --> 2:45:24.120 it that people who share their hateful worldview. They rely 2:45:24.240 --> 2:45:27.840 on plausible deniability because if the racism isn't overt, many 2:45:27.879 --> 2:45:30.119 good people are all too happy to assume it isn't there. 2:45:30.440 --> 2:45:32.640 But every once in a while, in moments of panic 2:45:32.720 --> 2:45:37.720 or anger, the mask will slip unquote. Hugh Dancy closes 2:45:37.760 --> 2:45:40.199 by saying that Ellis Joyner was an innocent, unarmed black 2:45:40.200 --> 2:45:43.320 man suffering a medical emergency, and the two white people 2:45:43.360 --> 2:45:45.560 on the train assumed he was a violent threat, and 2:45:45.600 --> 2:45:48.320 they attacked him. And even if there was no intention 2:45:48.520 --> 2:45:51.400 to kill at the start quote, at some point, the 2:45:51.440 --> 2:45:56.600 defendant's focus shifted and his racial hate began to manifest unquote, 2:45:56.920 --> 2:46:00.280 yelling blood and soil at Joiner quote a declaration of 2:46:00.320 --> 2:46:04.320 hatred for all people of color unquote, as Brandon choked 2:46:04.360 --> 2:46:04.920 him to death. 2:46:06.200 --> 2:46:11.040 Okay, here's the thing, here's the thing. This whole situation 2:46:11.200 --> 2:46:15.440 with the undercover the counter terrorism. I have to believe 2:46:15.480 --> 2:46:17.720 that they're trying to set up a longer plot arc 2:46:17.760 --> 2:46:19.640 that that's going to come back in a later episode 2:46:19.840 --> 2:46:21.440 or so. They have a new spin off called Law 2:46:21.440 --> 2:46:26.440 and Order Organized Crime with Christopher Maloney Elliott Stabler from SVU. 2:46:26.600 --> 2:46:27.840 So I wonder if they're going to cross it over 2:46:27.840 --> 2:46:31.920 to organized crime, because it makes no sense. 2:46:32.000 --> 2:46:34.640 That's what I assume. I think this white national group 2:46:34.680 --> 2:46:36.560 is going to come back and be even a bigger 2:46:36.600 --> 2:46:39.240 plot point in a future episode. Otherwise, it didn't need 2:46:39.280 --> 2:46:41.320 to be in here. Otherwise the inclusion in this in 2:46:41.360 --> 2:46:43.200 this piece is really bizarre. 2:46:43.600 --> 2:46:45.800 So but no, so, but what I was going to 2:46:45.840 --> 2:46:50.640 say is they did not need that undercovers testimony because 2:46:50.680 --> 2:46:52.760 the only testimony they wanted to elicit it from him 2:46:53.280 --> 2:46:55.920 was like as a character witness to say like, oh, yeah, 2:46:55.959 --> 2:46:59.760 I've met him and he's racist. That wouldn't really even 2:47:00.240 --> 2:47:03.800 be admissible in most like like even if the even 2:47:03.840 --> 2:47:05.680 if the judge allowed the jury to hear that, like, 2:47:06.360 --> 2:47:09.920 this isn't a hate crime case, it doesn't matter. What 2:47:10.080 --> 2:47:13.040 matters is whether or not he used excessive, like more 2:47:13.080 --> 2:47:16.160 force than was necessary for a self defense argument. 2:47:16.520 --> 2:47:19.200 The entire legal strategy they shift to halfway through the 2:47:19.200 --> 2:47:23.480 corproateceedings is so obviously a dead end that doesn't actually relate. 2:47:23.560 --> 2:47:25.360 To and wouldn't have been allowed. 2:47:25.600 --> 2:47:27.240 Yeah, it's so it's so bizarre. 2:47:27.760 --> 2:47:29.480 And if they wanted to and if they wanted to 2:47:29.520 --> 2:47:33.800 get information about like his views that maybe his family 2:47:33.840 --> 2:47:36.000 didn't know about that people at work didn't know about, 2:47:36.200 --> 2:47:38.879 why did they not get warrants for his phone and computer? 2:47:39.120 --> 2:47:41.760 I mean, I think they did because they mentioned in 2:47:41.760 --> 2:47:44.360 searching through his phone and computer multiple times through the. 2:47:44.320 --> 2:47:47.360 Episode, found that he had searched for like how to 2:47:47.440 --> 2:47:50.000 delete from cloud or whatever from the guy's phone. 2:47:50.000 --> 2:47:52.360 But like again, I think that's mostly just like undercooked. 2:47:53.080 --> 2:47:56.119 He didn't open like his telegram account to see what exactly. 2:47:56.320 --> 2:47:58.280 You didn't see the active club chat season. You didn't 2:47:58.280 --> 2:48:01.320 see like you didn't talk to any other members of 2:48:01.720 --> 2:48:06.640 the Combat Academy, no other members of the gym really anyway, 2:48:06.800 --> 2:48:12.160 So the jury finds the defendant not guilty because yeah, okay, 2:48:12.680 --> 2:48:15.760 outside the courtroom, the head DA says, quote, we did 2:48:15.800 --> 2:48:16.879 the best that we could. 2:48:18.400 --> 2:48:21.000 Here's another problem. There's another problem. So not all states 2:48:21.040 --> 2:48:24.400 allow this, but in New York, the court can submit 2:48:24.440 --> 2:48:27.520 to the jury what are called lesser included charges. So 2:48:27.560 --> 2:48:30.320 if you're charged with murder two I think was what 2:48:30.360 --> 2:48:32.480 they charged him with his case, you know, the jury 2:48:32.520 --> 2:48:35.480 can deliberate on the actual charge murder too, but they 2:48:35.520 --> 2:48:38.960 can also consider what are called lesser included charges, so 2:48:39.040 --> 2:48:42.280 something like manslaughter. So the jury can say, well, we're 2:48:42.280 --> 2:48:44.080 not going to convict on murder. Tube we do think 2:48:44.120 --> 2:48:45.840 it was manslaughter, so we're going to convict on that, 2:48:45.879 --> 2:48:48.120 even though that wasn't the charge in the indictment. So 2:48:48.520 --> 2:48:51.440 I can't imagine that this DA would not have pushed 2:48:51.640 --> 2:48:53.039 for lesser included charges. 2:48:53.240 --> 2:48:56.680 Well, Hugh Dancy may agree. He says, quote, no, we 2:48:56.720 --> 2:48:59.720 could have done better. We just chose not to for 2:48:59.800 --> 2:49:00.840 the greater good. 2:49:01.600 --> 2:49:04.600 No, but they they could. 2:49:04.800 --> 2:49:06.960 I think I think he said that kind of sarcastically. 2:49:07.560 --> 2:49:10.000 The the DA affirms that one day soon they will 2:49:10.000 --> 2:49:13.840 take down the whole racist organization. But behind the the 2:49:13.879 --> 2:49:16.760 to the two days here Brandon walks out of the 2:49:16.800 --> 2:49:19.640 courtroom and celebrates with the other members of the Active Club. 2:49:20.120 --> 2:49:21.359 End of episode. 2:49:21.959 --> 2:49:24.400 Okay, so but when they when they put Kovac on 2:49:24.440 --> 2:49:26.000 the stand and they were saying like, oh, like, did 2:49:26.000 --> 2:49:29.440 you teach him about racism. The better line of questioning 2:49:29.480 --> 2:49:33.119 at that moment would have been, Okay, you're his grappling coach, 2:49:33.720 --> 2:49:37.320 did you teach him how dangerous choke holts are? 2:49:37.959 --> 2:49:38.160 Right? 2:49:38.200 --> 2:49:40.360 Because, like, I don't know anything about a choke holds. 2:49:40.400 --> 2:49:43.039 If I accidentally killed someone with one, maybe I didn't 2:49:43.080 --> 2:49:46.600 know that would happen. If you are taking five hours 2:49:46.640 --> 2:49:49.640 a week of private hand to hand combat lessons, you 2:49:49.680 --> 2:49:53.840 probably do know, and that would go to you know, foreknowledge, 2:49:53.920 --> 2:49:56.440 and like, why didn't why didn't they ask that? 2:49:56.680 --> 2:49:59.640 Again? I started this episode because I thought it would 2:49:59.680 --> 2:50:01.879 be about active clubs, and it turns out by the 2:50:02.000 --> 2:50:03.240 end it's really not. 2:50:03.760 --> 2:50:04.959 It's really about Daniel Penny. 2:50:05.080 --> 2:50:09.160 It's really about the killing of Jordan Neely. So this 2:50:09.200 --> 2:50:11.600 is the actual rip from the headline's piece that they're doing, 2:50:11.640 --> 2:50:13.879 which I did not really realize until the episode was over. 2:50:14.480 --> 2:50:18.520 So this is kind of riffing on the incident that 2:50:18.520 --> 2:50:21.000 happened on May first, twenty twenty three. Jordan Neely was 2:50:21.000 --> 2:50:24.600 a thirty year old black man. He was Michael Jackson impersonator. 2:50:24.640 --> 2:50:26.560 At the time. He was homeless. He was running the 2:50:26.560 --> 2:50:29.840 subway in Manhattan and appeared emotionally distressed. He was yelling 2:50:29.840 --> 2:50:32.560 about needing food and water. No one was helping him. 2:50:32.720 --> 2:50:34.879 He was yelling that he didn't care about going to jail. 2:50:34.959 --> 2:50:38.480 He was ready to die, and this was reportedly frightening 2:50:38.520 --> 2:50:42.640 other writers. Daniel Penny, a twenty four year old former marine, 2:50:42.879 --> 2:50:45.320 approached Neely and placed him in a lethal chocold that 2:50:45.400 --> 2:50:48.879 lasted anywhere from five to seven minutes, depending on if 2:50:48.920 --> 2:50:52.279 you ask the prosecution or the defense. Penny was repeatedly 2:50:52.320 --> 2:50:55.039 told by other writers that Neely appeared to be dying. 2:50:55.879 --> 2:50:58.280 By the time first aid was being administered, he was 2:50:58.280 --> 2:51:01.640 already dead. Daniel Penny was let go after being questioned 2:51:01.640 --> 2:51:04.119 by police, and only arrested eleven days later. I think 2:51:04.160 --> 2:51:06.480 this is the part where they're like, do we want 2:51:06.480 --> 2:51:09.000 to let them go or charge him now? I think 2:51:09.000 --> 2:51:11.800 that's kind of what they're doing here. On June fourteenth, 2:51:11.800 --> 2:51:14.080 twenty twenty three, he was indicted on a charge of 2:51:14.160 --> 2:51:18.119 second degree manslaughter. The trial scheduled to start on October eighth, 2:51:18.200 --> 2:51:22.720 twenty twenty four. So this episode also, I think it 2:51:22.760 --> 2:51:24.360 fails in a lot of ways in this depiction of 2:51:24.400 --> 2:51:28.360 active clubs. It uses certain terms, like the term active clubs, 2:51:28.360 --> 2:51:30.200 which I was surprised they just I'm surprised they use 2:51:30.240 --> 2:51:32.200 because that's kind of a more of like a niche term, 2:51:32.640 --> 2:51:35.200 but they just made it to be this like MMA 2:51:35.400 --> 2:51:38.840 elite Nazi squad. And I think them trying to include 2:51:38.840 --> 2:51:42.959 this bit does an incredible disservice to trying to depict 2:51:43.080 --> 2:51:45.560 the killing of Jordan Neely, which, first of all, like 2:51:45.600 --> 2:51:48.600 there's already problematic aspects of right of turning this this 2:51:48.680 --> 2:51:50.640 like really fucked up thing into a piece of entertainment. 2:51:50.800 --> 2:51:53.720 That's kind of why I started this episode with that monologue. 2:51:53.920 --> 2:51:56.920 But I think by cramming so many other elements in here, 2:51:56.959 --> 2:52:01.040 like this, like this homophobia angle, this this this active 2:52:01.080 --> 2:52:04.119 club angle, it does a real disservice to the actual 2:52:04.440 --> 2:52:07.880 incident that they're trying to comment on, where there was 2:52:07.920 --> 2:52:10.879 a man in a very crowded subway who very publicly 2:52:11.360 --> 2:52:16.640 was basically lynched because a few writers were not super 2:52:16.680 --> 2:52:20.199 comfortable when riding the subway because this man was yelling 2:52:20.240 --> 2:52:28.760 for food and water. So it's not great, But after 2:52:28.840 --> 2:52:31.160 watching Leave the World Behind Civil War on this, I 2:52:31.160 --> 2:52:33.640 think this is the best depiction of our current political 2:52:33.680 --> 2:52:36.080 moment out of all of those three things, which is 2:52:36.440 --> 2:52:39.160 a pretty fucked up bar. I guess, Molly, do you 2:52:39.200 --> 2:52:42.200 have any other thoughts on how they depict Nazi stuff 2:52:42.200 --> 2:52:42.400 in this? 2:52:43.840 --> 2:52:48.080 I mean not well, not well, bitch, uh no. The 2:52:48.440 --> 2:52:50.840 I was just gonna say, I was looking on Reddit 2:52:51.040 --> 2:52:55.000 and seeing people's people's takes on it on the Law 2:52:55.040 --> 2:52:58.160 and Order Reddit, and I found this fantastic comment. They 2:52:58.200 --> 2:53:00.720 did take the Daniel Penny case but change the whole 2:53:00.760 --> 2:53:03.480 story to make Penny look guilty, probably to make the 2:53:03.520 --> 2:53:09.320 real Penny look like a bad guy in real life. 2:53:09.600 --> 2:53:15.480 Objection, objection, objection in your honor, object mods mods not yeah, 2:53:15.520 --> 2:53:18.280 not great because also yeah, it also like for people 2:53:18.280 --> 2:53:20.600 who are like looking at this as a parallel to Jordania, 2:53:20.800 --> 2:53:22.640 like oh, why do they change so many details to 2:53:22.640 --> 2:53:24.720 make him look even more guilty, and like, no, that's 2:53:24.760 --> 2:53:25.720 not what's happening at all. 2:53:25.879 --> 2:53:29.119 Like I think they did a disservice to that story 2:53:29.240 --> 2:53:31.680 by changing so many elements. I mean, like you said, 2:53:31.720 --> 2:53:34.240 there's there's a conversation to be had about the ethics 2:53:34.280 --> 2:53:37.720 of depicting the story as entertainment period. Yeah, but if 2:53:37.760 --> 2:53:39.160 they're going to do it, and they've been doing it 2:53:39.200 --> 2:53:40.960 for thirty years, right, that's just what Law and Order does. 2:53:41.000 --> 2:53:42.720 If they're going to do it, I think they have 2:53:42.720 --> 2:53:48.560 a responsibility to not do this, to not do this. 2:53:49.040 --> 2:53:53.160 Yeah, well again, they have bigger fish to fry since 2:53:53.200 --> 2:53:57.640 there's that upcoming worse than January sixth attack head led 2:53:57.680 --> 2:54:00.440 by these MMA guys who are stockpiling this explosive, so 2:54:00.720 --> 2:54:02.080 watch out for that, I guess. 2:54:02.440 --> 2:54:03.720 Yeah, I guess I'll have to watch the rest of 2:54:03.720 --> 2:54:06.320 the season to see if the MMA gym blows up 2:54:06.320 --> 2:54:06.760 New York. 2:54:07.160 --> 2:54:10.040 Yeah, I will not be until they release a direct 2:54:10.080 --> 2:54:13.200 follow up, So I think that doesn't for us today. 2:54:13.240 --> 2:54:16.960 This is already way too This episode's already long episode. 2:54:16.959 --> 2:54:20.120 It's already longer the Law and Order episode, So that 2:54:20.160 --> 2:54:21.960 doesn't for us today. Thank you for listening. If you 2:54:21.959 --> 2:54:23.959 want to check out my review of Civil War, it's 2:54:24.080 --> 2:54:25.960 very short, but it's kind of to the point. I'm 2:54:25.959 --> 2:54:29.400 on letterboxed at Hungry bow Tie, and then the reviews 2:54:29.400 --> 2:54:32.400 that I liked, which are underneath my own review, go 2:54:32.480 --> 2:54:34.920 into more depth about kind of the problems with that 2:54:35.000 --> 2:54:39.520 film in my opinion and other people's opinion. Anyway, Where 2:54:39.520 --> 2:54:42.039 can people find you online? Molly Oh? 2:54:42.200 --> 2:54:46.720 I am on Twitter at Socialist Dog Mom and my 2:54:46.800 --> 2:54:49.720 newsletter The Devil's Advocates on Ghost and Think Us. That's 2:54:49.760 --> 2:54:54.240 it for me. Oh, I'm podcasting sometimes now, no objections 2:54:54.280 --> 2:54:57.880 for me. Yeah, I guess by the time you're listening 2:54:57.920 --> 2:55:00.200 to this, you can listen to my latest episode the 2:55:00.280 --> 2:55:01.519 show yesterday. 2:55:03.000 --> 2:55:11.759 All right, see you on the other side. 2:55:19.040 --> 2:55:21.040 Hi, everyone, and welcome to the show. It to me 2:55:21.200 --> 2:55:24.240 James today, and I'm joined by doctor maung Zani, who's 2:55:24.280 --> 2:55:27.359 an activist and scholar with thirty five years of experience 2:55:28.040 --> 2:55:31.480 advocating against genocide and for freedom and Burma and one 2:55:31.560 --> 2:55:35.280 of the founding members of the anarchist activist platform Forces 2:55:35.280 --> 2:55:38.240 of Renewal Southeast Asia. Welcome to the show, doctor Journey. 2:55:39.080 --> 2:55:41.240 Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, yeah, it's. 2:55:41.160 --> 2:55:43.640 A pleasure to have you here. So and also I 2:55:43.640 --> 2:55:47.800 should mention Nobel Peace Prize nominee as of as yesterday 2:55:47.920 --> 2:55:49.600 or the day before the congratulations on that. 2:55:49.720 --> 2:55:52.360 Also, yeah, thanks so much. 2:55:52.680 --> 2:55:56.480 It happened in January, before the deadline, and so I 2:55:56.600 --> 2:56:01.720 just released the announcement you know for the Burmese New 2:56:01.840 --> 2:56:05.800 Year you know occasion, because yes, you know, the country 2:56:05.800 --> 2:56:12.440 has been torn apart by you know, armed revolutions genocide, 2:56:13.240 --> 2:56:19.640 the racism, anti Muslim violence, and so thought like this 2:56:19.879 --> 2:56:25.080 may be a tiny sliver or positive thing. And so 2:56:25.480 --> 2:56:31.240 if activists want to have, you know, there's some sustenance 2:56:31.360 --> 2:56:36.480 for their grassroots revolution, here's somebody who's who has been 2:56:36.560 --> 2:56:40.320 grassroots for thirty five years. So that's why I released it. 2:56:40.360 --> 2:56:43.359 But that's you know, the secondary anyway. 2:56:43.800 --> 2:56:46.600 Yeah, I know, it's if it can get the world 2:56:46.800 --> 2:56:49.920 to look at what's happening and pay attention, then I 2:56:49.920 --> 2:56:53.000 think it's a good thing. So one thing I wanted 2:56:53.040 --> 2:56:54.840 to ask you about today to start off with, is 2:56:55.320 --> 2:56:58.520 something that when I talk to people in the US 2:56:58.600 --> 2:57:01.960 and the UK about the revolution and the cure in Meanma, 2:57:02.080 --> 2:57:06.959 the context of like ultranationalist Buddhism is one that is 2:57:07.080 --> 2:57:09.720 very hard, I think for people who don't have a 2:57:09.760 --> 2:57:14.080 great understanding of how that works to understand. So I 2:57:14.120 --> 2:57:16.560 was wondering if we could start off with you explaining 2:57:16.680 --> 2:57:21.199 like this, this long and painful history of like ultranationalist 2:57:21.240 --> 2:57:25.879 Buddhism in Myanmar and how it's empowered the genocide of 2:57:25.959 --> 2:57:29.199 Muslim people and also the hunter today. 2:57:29.879 --> 2:57:33.840 Well, when we talk about you know, ultra nationalism or 2:57:34.120 --> 2:57:39.160 various strengths of nationalism. I think we need to periodize 2:57:39.840 --> 2:57:46.280 or put in different historical periods because you know, the 2:57:46.400 --> 2:57:58.039 term nationalism was a progressive, emancipatory ideological umbrella when the 2:57:58.120 --> 2:58:03.520 local society or primarily Buddhists and also other people, but 2:58:04.480 --> 2:58:10.520 the majority political systems were built on the foundation of 2:58:10.840 --> 2:58:15.160 Buddhism in Burma, you know, like different kingdoms. But when 2:58:15.640 --> 2:58:19.400 when when we were under the British for one hundred 2:58:19.400 --> 2:58:27.880 and twenty four years, the you know internally warring Buddhist kingdoms, 2:58:27.920 --> 2:58:31.880 you know, like Rakine and Morn and Burmese and Sean, 2:58:32.800 --> 2:58:39.480 they all at Buddhist kingdoms and they formed this oppositional 2:58:40.160 --> 2:58:47.240 ideological identity as you know, nationalists Buddhists that would confront 2:58:47.320 --> 2:58:52.480 the alien colonial British rule. So in that sense, you know, 2:58:52.600 --> 2:58:57.000 nationalism was not a bad thing at all because it 2:58:57.240 --> 2:59:03.440 was you know, primarily for image concipatory struggle. But then 2:59:03.560 --> 2:59:08.480 like you know, then fast forward post colonial independence period 2:59:09.080 --> 2:59:13.480 nineteen forty eight onward. Right when when the British rule 2:59:13.720 --> 2:59:16.680 was removed at the end of the Second World War 2:59:17.560 --> 2:59:23.920 three years after the the oppositional Buddhist nationalists, you know, 2:59:24.080 --> 2:59:30.680 umbrella identity collapse, right so Raklines want to full ground 2:59:30.760 --> 2:59:39.000 their ethnic city given that the main oppositional commonality, the 2:59:39.320 --> 2:59:43.520 colonial colonialism, was no more. And so that's when the 2:59:44.360 --> 2:59:53.480 ethnicity was reinjected, you know, into the ideological formation. And interestingly, 2:59:53.680 --> 2:59:57.280 as you would know as well, the end of the 2:59:57.320 --> 3:00:00.680 Second World War was followed by the Coal War, right. 3:00:01.200 --> 3:00:03.200 And on the one hand, like you've got you know, 3:00:03.320 --> 3:00:09.959 godless communists, atheistic Russia, a Soviet Union and in China. 3:00:10.400 --> 3:00:15.320 And then on the other hand, you know, essentially Christian West, 3:00:15.600 --> 3:00:19.560 you know, or at least allegedly Christian West. And in 3:00:19.720 --> 3:00:31.040 that context, the alternationalism was essentially encouraged to buy the 3:00:31.080 --> 3:00:34.480 by the United States and allies. You know, like if 3:00:34.520 --> 3:00:36.720 you that this is nothing new. If you look at 3:00:37.760 --> 3:00:43.400 the rights of like a socialist governments across the Middle East, 3:00:43.640 --> 3:00:47.240 you know, primarily Muslim Middle East, you would find like 3:00:47.320 --> 3:00:50.800 the rights of Muslim brotherhood and you know what we 3:00:50.920 --> 3:00:56.160 call today fundamentalist islamicist right, but that you know, the 3:00:56.200 --> 3:01:04.320 Buddhist with at no central orientation were encouraged you know, 3:01:04.440 --> 3:01:10.280 by the United States through grants and aid. The same 3:01:10.320 --> 3:01:13.519 way like you know, the rights of you know, fundamentalist 3:01:13.720 --> 3:01:19.560 Islam was encouraged or or midwifi with the US money. 3:01:20.280 --> 3:01:25.120 Because this is important because through the eyes of the 3:01:25.240 --> 3:01:34.640 coal war strategists, the only way that egalitarian leftist ideologies 3:01:34.800 --> 3:01:41.199 could be confronted was through this, the faith based ideology. 3:01:42.400 --> 3:01:47.480 So I don't want I'm not saying that the Burmese 3:01:48.360 --> 3:01:53.360 nationalists and also nationalists were not responsible for their own growth. 3:01:54.160 --> 3:01:57.039 But I also what I'm saying is that there was 3:01:57.120 --> 3:02:04.120 a larger global context in which this monster was hatched. Yes, 3:02:04.160 --> 3:02:09.000 and so, but even you know, like the going back 3:02:09.040 --> 3:02:12.800 to the nineteen thirties, after the War Street collapse, you know, 3:02:13.000 --> 3:02:18.040 then like you know, the the recession pervaded across the world, 3:02:18.160 --> 3:02:24.039 and colonial economies like Burma with massive agricultural explorer economy, 3:02:24.959 --> 3:02:33.240 the British founded expedient to basically turn to a religious 3:02:33.280 --> 3:02:37.400 divide and rule, and like you know, the Burmese Buddhist 3:02:38.520 --> 3:02:44.720 laboring classes were pitted against the Indian laboring classes of 3:02:45.160 --> 3:02:49.640 different religions, but that was more like the Buddhist nationalists 3:02:49.760 --> 3:02:53.640 and non nationalists versus you know, like what we were 3:02:53.680 --> 3:02:57.520 called today migrant laborers from India, you know, under the 3:02:58.000 --> 3:03:01.760 because we were part of British Empire. After the British left, 3:03:02.560 --> 3:03:08.560 the Muslims began to be scapegoaded, and then finally I 3:03:08.560 --> 3:03:11.800 think like the we cannot understand yes, you know very 3:03:11.800 --> 3:03:17.160 well the nationalism or alter nationalism without some kind of 3:03:17.280 --> 3:03:24.039 political organization. And that organization is what we call Burmese 3:03:24.480 --> 3:03:29.720 political or state, whether it's controlled by the civilian elected 3:03:30.480 --> 3:03:37.920 politicians or the military military as an organization, political state's 3:03:38.040 --> 3:03:42.879 always there, whether it's you know, fascism in Nazi Germany 3:03:43.120 --> 3:03:47.440 or Italy or Japan or like you know, the genocidal 3:03:48.080 --> 3:03:54.400 Mimah about fifteen years ago. State was the engine. Actually 3:03:54.680 --> 3:03:59.520 it's not the people that were generating this toxic ideology. 3:03:59.600 --> 3:04:05.800 It was state that was inventing, manipulating and mobilizing towards 3:04:05.800 --> 3:04:07.000 their sinister end. 3:04:08.040 --> 3:04:11.520 Right Yeah, And it's the divide and rules strategy and 3:04:11.560 --> 3:04:15.280 the full I guess the falling back to this these 3:04:15.360 --> 3:04:19.680 kind of colonial methods of rule is something that I 3:04:19.720 --> 3:04:22.960 guess I want people to understand is still happening in 3:04:23.520 --> 3:04:28.240 Burma or Myanmar. Right we see the military that the 3:04:28.360 --> 3:04:31.600 junta doing it right now, right like attempting to ferment 3:04:32.280 --> 3:04:35.960 inter ethnic conflicts to prevent the formation of a popular 3:04:36.000 --> 3:04:38.920 front or a coalition against against their rule. 3:04:39.000 --> 3:04:43.600 Right, yes, I think the here the one observation I 3:04:43.600 --> 3:04:48.160 want to make is a you know, independence from Britain, 3:04:49.440 --> 3:04:52.959 restoration of say like you know, more than form of 3:04:53.480 --> 3:04:59.959 sovereignty to Burmese people was not a clean break from 3:05:00.120 --> 3:05:05.800 the colonial past. Because the state in Burma as it 3:05:06.000 --> 3:05:11.240 exists or it has existed over the last seventy plus years, 3:05:12.000 --> 3:05:18.080 remains a colonial state. It was an instrument of economic 3:05:18.280 --> 3:05:27.200 exploitation or racialized or ethnicized administration. And all the security 3:05:28.160 --> 3:05:34.880 laws and you know, ordinances and whatnot, they were formulated 3:05:35.879 --> 3:05:40.760 with the interest of the ruling colonial interests or power 3:05:41.080 --> 3:05:45.599 like at the time British and what the what independence 3:05:45.640 --> 3:05:53.120 did was really transfer of this internally racialized entity we 3:05:53.240 --> 3:05:59.960 call state from the white man's hand to the Brahman's hand, 3:06:00.480 --> 3:06:05.200 you know, the Burmese. So so when when you the 3:06:05.320 --> 3:06:12.120 state wasn't actually finding it difficult to foment racial or 3:06:12.280 --> 3:06:16.039 inter we don't use the term race here, inter ethnic 3:06:16.280 --> 3:06:22.959 conflict or inter religious conflict. The state itself embodied this 3:06:23.640 --> 3:06:29.400 divide and rule outlook because it remains internally colonial, you 3:06:29.440 --> 3:06:33.039 see what I mean? And so so I think that 3:06:34.000 --> 3:06:38.320 it isn't simply the policies of the you know, X 3:06:38.480 --> 3:06:43.240 y Z regimes that have rude Burma since independence. But 3:06:43.400 --> 3:06:50.000 the state itself is conducive to, or you know, supportive 3:06:50.080 --> 3:06:56.480 of this kind of inter religious and inter ethnic contest 3:06:56.959 --> 3:07:03.240 because there there are no principles of equality as as 3:07:03.400 --> 3:07:07.960 ethnic or religious communities or there there there was no 3:07:08.120 --> 3:07:14.600 sense of you know, horizontal or vertical fairness among the 3:07:14.600 --> 3:07:20.160 political class and the majoritarian agrarian communities, and so the 3:07:20.200 --> 3:07:23.640 state is self problematic. Yeah, that's why, like you know 3:07:23.959 --> 3:07:29.039 that when ol San Suci came to you know, semi power, 3:07:29.120 --> 3:07:32.440 because the military is still controlled or backseat drove for 3:07:32.520 --> 3:07:37.840 a regime, she found it really difficult to maneuver because 3:07:38.440 --> 3:07:44.800 she was straight jacketed in this you know internally colonial shell. 3:07:45.440 --> 3:07:46.480 Yeah. Yeah. 3:07:46.600 --> 3:07:48.680 And then so so I think, of course, like you know, 3:07:48.720 --> 3:07:52.800 you're it's correct what the military is doing now, say 3:07:52.840 --> 3:07:58.560 in Racine State, where they committed genocide against Rainia Muslims. 3:07:59.040 --> 3:08:01.240 You know, they drove out you know, close to eight 3:08:01.320 --> 3:08:07.320 hundred thousand Rohindas of genocidally across the border to Bangladesh 3:08:07.360 --> 3:08:12.520 in two thousand and seventeen and also sixteen. They are 3:08:12.600 --> 3:08:19.520 now army and training, and you know, forcively conscripting able 3:08:19.640 --> 3:08:25.000 body young Rhindja men into their ranks and to fight 3:08:25.120 --> 3:08:32.520 the progressively militarily stronger recind Buddhist Arakan army. That's just 3:08:32.600 --> 3:08:35.680 one area. But you know, if you look at other 3:08:35.920 --> 3:08:40.520 regions like shun Stay, for instance, there's an extremely complex 3:08:40.800 --> 3:08:46.080 ethnic contestations happening. Right, so what like political scientists call 3:08:46.200 --> 3:08:50.080 like a horizontal violence is taking place, and so it's 3:08:50.120 --> 3:08:55.840 like there are multiple conflicts at work, you know, but 3:08:56.640 --> 3:08:59.480 of course like the military is number one, you know, 3:08:59.600 --> 3:09:06.400 problem maker, but they're also lesser evil forms of like 3:09:06.640 --> 3:09:09.240 political and ethnic conflicts taking place. 3:09:20.200 --> 3:09:22.520 Yeah, I think, yeah, it's very much against Shan states. 3:09:22.680 --> 3:09:27.320 I think particularly complicated and interesting as we look at 3:09:27.440 --> 3:09:32.560 the situation now in the different like both in the 3:09:32.680 --> 3:09:37.160 liberated areas or the areas without control of the like 3:09:37.280 --> 3:09:39.680 NAPI or state that they may still be controlled kind 3:09:39.720 --> 3:09:42.840 of in a sense by other kind of like pseudo states. 3:09:42.879 --> 3:09:46.560 I guess are you familiar with this? There's this argument? 3:09:46.680 --> 3:09:50.599 I think it's probably like articulated. I'm sure you are articulated, 3:09:50.879 --> 3:09:55.120 most notably by James C. Scott of like and he 3:09:55.480 --> 3:09:57.640 looks at the example of me and Ma has been 3:09:57.840 --> 3:10:01.720 rightly criticized in some areas of like the mountains, as 3:10:01.760 --> 3:10:06.240 an area where people can I guess, choose to opt 3:10:06.360 --> 3:10:09.240 out of the state or or to be where the 3:10:09.280 --> 3:10:12.400 state is not completely consolidated, I guess, and never has been. 3:10:13.360 --> 3:10:16.039 Yeah, I know, I know Gym's work, you know, like 3:10:16.200 --> 3:10:22.000 the the he divides people into valleys and you know, mountains. 3:10:22.320 --> 3:10:25.680 You know what's interesting is like you know, it's it's 3:10:26.080 --> 3:10:29.320 it's a lot more complex than this, you know, the 3:10:30.160 --> 3:10:34.440 the dualistic understanding of like hill people versus plain people, 3:10:34.560 --> 3:10:38.400 because you know, like even in the in the hills 3:10:38.440 --> 3:10:41.240 that there are you know, highlands and and and there 3:10:41.240 --> 3:10:42.520 are plateaus and. 3:10:42.640 --> 3:10:45.200 You know the you know and so. 3:10:45.879 --> 3:10:49.760 But also I think like that I find it more 3:10:49.959 --> 3:10:54.440 useful to look at this not through geographic lens, but 3:10:54.600 --> 3:10:58.480 through the colonial lens, because you've got the colonial state, 3:10:58.560 --> 3:11:02.320 because like you know, Gym is essentially anti status. But 3:11:02.440 --> 3:11:05.880 as a matter of value, yeah, I am with him, 3:11:06.000 --> 3:11:10.920 you know, because I'm bent on the anarchism as my value, 3:11:10.959 --> 3:11:16.640 you know. But analytically, I think, but given the fact 3:11:16.680 --> 3:11:22.359 that the colonial state continues to live on and continue 3:11:22.400 --> 3:11:27.880 to haunt the Burmese society. I think, like the way 3:11:27.920 --> 3:11:31.360 I look at it is like you know, center and peripheree, right, 3:11:32.840 --> 3:11:37.400 irrespective of the altitude. I mean, at this point, like 3:11:37.560 --> 3:11:43.560 altitudes no longer really strategically important because you know, we're 3:11:43.600 --> 3:11:46.520 we live in the age of drones and like you know, 3:11:47.000 --> 3:11:53.080 MiG twenty nine and sixteen, mountains are no longer cover 3:11:53.280 --> 3:11:54.560 you see what I mean, right, Yeah? 3:11:54.640 --> 3:11:59.760 Yeah, the construct of the mountains as like nonstate space 3:11:59.840 --> 3:12:02.640 or place where you can go to choose to be nonstate. 3:12:02.680 --> 3:12:06.840 I think like it's interesting to hear young Bamar PDFs 3:12:07.680 --> 3:12:10.520 fighters now be like, oh, I chose to go to 3:12:10.560 --> 3:12:13.400 the mountains, even though it sits very much alongside that 3:12:13.400 --> 3:12:17.320 Canelian analysis that you had of like the wild people 3:12:17.920 --> 3:12:21.520 or like quote unquote savagery, right, which or when I 3:12:21.560 --> 3:12:24.840 speak to Bamar people who are like twenty one now 3:12:24.840 --> 3:12:28.320 who joined the PDFs at eighteen seventeen after the coup, 3:12:28.800 --> 3:12:32.040 they had all been very much indoctrinated with the idea 3:12:32.240 --> 3:12:35.520 of non Bamar people as quote savages or wild people 3:12:35.560 --> 3:12:38.600 who lived in the quote mountains or jungles, and like 3:12:38.680 --> 3:12:41.840 choosing to go there to escape the state. I think 3:12:42.080 --> 3:12:46.200 it's really interesting to hear like that analysis reproduced in 3:12:46.560 --> 3:12:49.359 their storytelling of their own lives. 3:12:50.720 --> 3:12:54.040 Yeah, I mean, I think you know that it has 3:12:54.120 --> 3:12:59.520 been in the Burmese political psyche. You move away from 3:12:59.560 --> 3:13:04.599 the Senate and you are more autonomous, and you are 3:13:04.840 --> 3:13:08.640 you know, freer from the right, you know, the reach 3:13:08.760 --> 3:13:13.400 of the center, right, because we we still have this 3:13:14.440 --> 3:13:18.080 center periphee mentality. Yeah, I mean you know culturally, yes, 3:13:18.200 --> 3:13:22.320 you're absolutely right. Uh, the way people in the center, 3:13:22.600 --> 3:13:26.519 like the group that I belong to, Burmese Buddhist majority, 3:13:27.440 --> 3:13:30.800 we look down on people that are on the periphree right, 3:13:30.840 --> 3:13:33.480 that the way people dress. I mean it's also like 3:13:33.600 --> 3:13:38.480 you know, the rural and urban divide as well, you know, 3:13:38.560 --> 3:13:42.640 the even like those who grew up in the in 3:13:42.720 --> 3:13:46.600 the non majoritarians, you know regions, you know what I 3:13:46.640 --> 3:13:50.240 call it, the peripherys of the Burmese colonial state. When 3:13:50.280 --> 3:13:53.600 they settle in Rangoon or Mandally or or you know 3:13:53.680 --> 3:13:59.720 major urban areas, they they begin to dress, they begin 3:13:59.760 --> 3:14:03.960 to I mean, they necessarily adapt to the the the 3:14:04.520 --> 3:14:09.279 Burmese way of life, the majority dominant you know, customs 3:14:09.320 --> 3:14:14.160 and whatnot, and so so I still stick with the 3:14:14.680 --> 3:14:20.959 you know this whole colonial relations the organizationally and psychologically. 3:14:21.800 --> 3:14:25.880 The yeah, I mean also that we have the vocabulary. 3:14:26.480 --> 3:14:29.680 If you want to oppose a central state or the 3:14:29.840 --> 3:14:34.560 central regime, we say, we take refuge in the forest, right, 3:14:35.200 --> 3:14:37.920 And we take refuge in the forest or under the 3:14:38.000 --> 3:14:44.280 tree against the scorching sun or like pouring monsoon rain right, 3:14:44.760 --> 3:14:49.240 or the evil center right. And so so it's all 3:14:49.280 --> 3:14:52.280 built in. It's in the language even you know, like 3:14:53.160 --> 3:14:59.039 organizing an armed revolt or going underground is described as 3:14:59.560 --> 3:15:04.600 taking refuge in the forest the jungle, you know. And 3:15:04.600 --> 3:15:07.720 and and what's what's interesting though, is like you know, 3:15:07.800 --> 3:15:12.440 from the state's perspective, if you're taking refuge in the 3:15:12.560 --> 3:15:16.480 in the jungle, of course, like that's treason us and 3:15:16.800 --> 3:15:21.920 you know, that is an act of criminality. But if 3:15:21.959 --> 3:15:25.840 you if you use that language, or if you if 3:15:25.840 --> 3:15:29.680 you do exactly the same thing literally physically, if you're 3:15:29.720 --> 3:15:35.879 a Buddhist monk, you know, you you are considered holier 3:15:35.920 --> 3:15:39.840 than monks that continue to live in the city, you 3:15:39.840 --> 3:15:42.280 know what I mean. So you go, you know, the 3:15:42.440 --> 3:15:47.119 forest monks versus like a city, town or village monk. Right. 3:15:47.520 --> 3:15:54.640 So this is quite a fascinating linguistic you know, twist 3:15:54.720 --> 3:15:57.520 here on one hand, like you know, but from the 3:15:57.600 --> 3:16:05.560 revolutionaries perspective, if you're in the jungle, you grow certain 3:16:05.920 --> 3:16:09.640 aura around you. You're in the jungle, right, and you 3:16:09.680 --> 3:16:12.680 don't you don't wear jeens or you don't look like 3:16:12.800 --> 3:16:17.320 city people by you're wearing you know, like the fatigue, 3:16:17.400 --> 3:16:23.640 army fatigue and you know, jungle the paraphernalia. And as 3:16:23.640 --> 3:16:26.760 a revolutionary that's like, you know, that's I check with 3:16:26.879 --> 3:16:27.480 our time. 3:16:27.600 --> 3:16:28.200 You see what I mean. 3:16:28.600 --> 3:16:33.000 Revolutions start or organize around jungles, you know, I mean, 3:16:33.760 --> 3:16:36.280 so it has nothing to do with altitude. You see 3:16:36.280 --> 3:16:36.680 what I mean? 3:16:37.000 --> 3:16:40.039 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just yeah, I like that periphery 3:16:40.040 --> 3:16:40.840 colonial model. 3:16:51.680 --> 3:16:54.039 So I wonder like, I think people who. 3:16:53.920 --> 3:16:57.800 Listen to this will both be very much like amenable 3:16:57.879 --> 3:17:02.359 to anarchism and see the problems that state societies create 3:17:02.680 --> 3:17:06.480 and also to the revolution in me Emma and to 3:17:06.560 --> 3:17:08.720 the young people and then not so young people who 3:17:08.720 --> 3:17:12.880 are fighting it. I wonder like, how do we build 3:17:12.879 --> 3:17:16.240 a future for Memma that doesn't replicate this colonial corpora 3:17:16.280 --> 3:17:19.440 fhery model that doesn't the scene quiton of the state 3:17:19.560 --> 3:17:23.400 that's centered in Napidor is like the it's this use 3:17:23.440 --> 3:17:25.760 of violence to control and this colonial relationship. 3:17:25.800 --> 3:17:27.599 Right, so how do we not replicate. 3:17:27.200 --> 3:17:28.760 That in the post revolution future? 3:17:29.959 --> 3:17:34.680 Well, I think you know, there's a danger in or 3:17:34.720 --> 3:17:40.279 should I say, the romanticizing the mini states or substates, 3:17:40.360 --> 3:17:52.200 right if establishing autonomous states does not confront the colonial 3:17:52.440 --> 3:17:57.840 nature of the state from which these meaning states you know, 3:17:58.160 --> 3:18:05.240 emerge as oppositional entities. In other words, whatever administrative structures 3:18:06.000 --> 3:18:12.720 that you know, the the the current armed revolutionary organizations 3:18:12.760 --> 3:18:18.000 set up, they need to first make sure they don't 3:18:18.200 --> 3:18:23.680 replicate that the internally colonial nature of the state that 3:18:23.720 --> 3:18:27.640 they have been fighting and to some degree of like 3:18:27.760 --> 3:18:35.720 success at this point in history, right, because the coloniality 3:18:36.959 --> 3:18:43.200 is very much connected with the idea of pure ethnic identity, 3:18:43.520 --> 3:18:47.000 you see what I mean, and in this day and age, 3:18:47.080 --> 3:18:49.280 I mean whether I mean you've been to current State 3:18:49.360 --> 3:18:51.879 and other places in Burma and and you know in 3:18:51.920 --> 3:18:54.640 the Middle East at Curtis and so. But they're they're 3:18:54.920 --> 3:19:01.440 they're always like, you know, the idea of pure ethnic identity, right, 3:19:01.480 --> 3:19:05.160 even if you're a revolutionary. But but but the truth, 3:19:05.240 --> 3:19:08.920 the truth is, you know, even small places you will 3:19:08.959 --> 3:19:12.840 find Muslims and Hindus and Christians or people with different 3:19:12.920 --> 3:19:18.039 migratory histories and class background. You flettened them into a 3:19:18.080 --> 3:19:22.760 single ethnic identity, right that well, that that that in 3:19:22.840 --> 3:19:26.880 and I mean self perception, we are a new Kuran 3:19:27.040 --> 3:19:31.640 state or Karany state or Kachin state, right, even Kachin 3:19:31.800 --> 3:19:36.840 the late the term label the label Kachin in the north. 3:19:37.480 --> 3:19:39.560 You know, they have about like the three or four 3:19:39.680 --> 3:19:44.520 major groups there, and and some resent being referred to 3:19:44.680 --> 3:19:48.119 as Kitchin, but they go along because they are against 3:19:48.160 --> 3:19:53.360 the more evil CenTra, a Burmese Buddhist state, right right, 3:19:53.440 --> 3:19:55.680 so so so so so that's why when I when 3:19:55.680 --> 3:19:58.240 I explain to you, you know, at the outset of 3:19:58.280 --> 3:20:04.520 this the conversation, this like your Buddhist identities merged as 3:20:04.560 --> 3:20:11.600 an oppositional umbrella, anti colonial identity against the British when 3:20:11.680 --> 3:20:16.280 that common oppressors has gone home, and then we start 3:20:16.280 --> 3:20:19.200 fighting each other, you see what I mean? So number one, 3:20:19.240 --> 3:20:23.320 it's like you know, that is very very important. These 3:20:23.400 --> 3:20:29.480 new entities do not define their political organizations along any 3:20:29.720 --> 3:20:35.160 idea of like you know, blood and soil. Yeah, and 3:20:35.240 --> 3:20:36.560 that's very very important. 3:20:36.640 --> 3:20:39.200 Otherwise we we. 3:20:38.520 --> 3:20:44.840 We replicate what we fought against. Right. And secondly, I 3:20:44.920 --> 3:20:52.920 think no military organizations should control administrations. But at the moment, 3:20:53.640 --> 3:20:56.320 you know, with the exception of the current National Union, 3:20:57.240 --> 3:21:04.120 most other ethnically organized armed resistance organizations in Burma, when 3:21:04.120 --> 3:21:09.040 they set up administrations, you know, administrators are guys who 3:21:09.080 --> 3:21:13.520 are you know, like carrying AK forty seven or some 3:21:13.640 --> 3:21:17.400 other weapons. You see what I mean? Because like what 3:21:17.440 --> 3:21:19.480 they need to do is as soon as like that 3:21:19.560 --> 3:21:25.280 they have secure any like ancestral region, what they need 3:21:25.320 --> 3:21:29.080 to do is they need to separate law and order 3:21:29.280 --> 3:21:35.600 maintenance from the defense. Yeah, And the reason we have 3:21:35.760 --> 3:21:41.240 gotten into this bloody mess is because the military did 3:21:41.280 --> 3:21:46.200 not separate law and order administration as a civilian function 3:21:46.720 --> 3:21:55.280 function from the national defense. So the current progressively militarily 3:21:55.480 --> 3:22:03.600 successful ethnic resistance organizations have to demilitarized self consciously and 3:22:03.680 --> 3:22:08.560 as a matter of policy their new administrations. So these 3:22:08.600 --> 3:22:13.400 two things, you know, move away from blood and soil 3:22:13.600 --> 3:22:20.160 idea of identity and demilitarized and civilianize the administration. 3:22:20.840 --> 3:22:24.240 Yeah, do you have hope? Like I find when I 3:22:24.400 --> 3:22:28.200 talk to especially younger people in the PDF, who are 3:22:28.200 --> 3:22:32.160 most people are like maybe it's easier for them to 3:22:32.240 --> 3:22:37.120 see the obvious the colonial relationship and the way that 3:22:37.560 --> 3:22:40.560 these constructs have harmed them and prevented them from finding 3:22:40.560 --> 3:22:44.080 solidarity with people of other ethnic groups. That's something that 3:22:44.200 --> 3:22:47.400 like sometimes they will articulate to me, right that, like, 3:22:48.520 --> 3:22:51.080 you know, we were told these people were bad and 3:22:51.120 --> 3:22:53.240 evil and savage, and they're not, and there are allies 3:22:53.280 --> 3:22:56.400 in this fight against dictatorship. Do you think that that's 3:22:56.480 --> 3:23:00.440 replicated in the in the leadership of eros like that 3:23:00.440 --> 3:23:03.560 that idea that this blood and soil nationalism has been 3:23:05.240 --> 3:23:08.400 the blood soil identity, I should say, is something that's 3:23:08.440 --> 3:23:11.120 like a big problematic and devisive and will always be 3:23:11.280 --> 3:23:14.840 so like, do you not see that replicated so much? 3:23:15.760 --> 3:23:23.600 Well, there is still you know, the old conservative orientations 3:23:23.640 --> 3:23:30.279 in these ros with respect to two things, the acceptance 3:23:30.440 --> 3:23:38.640 of you know, younger generations into policy making circles, right yeah. 3:23:38.680 --> 3:23:42.600 And then the other one is the half of the 3:23:42.640 --> 3:23:47.960 population of these ethnic communities have remained marginalized, and that 3:23:48.120 --> 3:23:51.240 is war men, if you you know, I mean, on 3:23:51.360 --> 3:23:54.640 one hand, it does make sense that you know, men 3:23:54.720 --> 3:23:57.840 with guns and men with like you know, the fifty 3:23:57.920 --> 3:24:02.280 years of revolutionary experience are going to play leading role. 3:24:03.080 --> 3:24:07.920 But these guys have to make a conscious effort in 3:24:08.240 --> 3:24:11.680 changing their own value system, which is like, you know, 3:24:12.400 --> 3:24:20.240 bring in new generations with more progressive ideas into policy 3:24:20.360 --> 3:24:25.800 making circle, leadership circle, and bring in warming. And you know, 3:24:26.800 --> 3:24:29.560 I wish I understand I know more about the Kurdish 3:24:29.760 --> 3:24:35.560 revolutionary organizations. My own very limited understanding is that you know, 3:24:35.760 --> 3:24:40.840 gender equality, I mean, for the for the Islamophobic crowd, 3:24:40.959 --> 3:24:45.680 it might be quite shocking, but the Kurdish revolutionary organizations 3:24:45.680 --> 3:24:52.240 are you know, much more gender equal, yeah than like 3:24:52.320 --> 3:24:54.280 you know, white democratic societies. 3:24:55.040 --> 3:24:58.160 Yeah, that's right. And I think their analysis, if I 3:24:58.200 --> 3:25:03.440 can sort of summarize like opposed thought very is that 3:25:04.080 --> 3:25:08.280 colonialism begins in the patriarchal family, and that the first 3:25:08.320 --> 3:25:11.080 colonized subject is the woman. And therefore, if we can't 3:25:11.080 --> 3:25:14.280 decolonize off amelia and community relations, then we have little 3:25:14.320 --> 3:25:17.600 hope of decononizing ourselves as a group or as a society. 3:25:17.720 --> 3:25:19.720 So that their analysis rest in the same place as 3:25:19.760 --> 3:25:24.160 yours does. And I think that there's I think increased 3:25:24.840 --> 3:25:28.640 solidarity and communication between the Kurdish freedom movement and the 3:25:28.680 --> 3:25:31.480 resistance movements in mem which I hope can only do 3:25:31.600 --> 3:25:34.800 good for that. Like, especially with regard to gender relations, 3:25:34.840 --> 3:25:38.360 it was interesting to see the Kereni K and d 3:25:38.480 --> 3:25:41.600 F Battalian five issued a statement which said that like 3:25:42.200 --> 3:25:43.879 they had a long way to go in terms of 3:25:43.920 --> 3:25:46.120 gender relations, and they looked to the Kurdish model of 3:25:46.240 --> 3:25:48.840 example of where they can get to, which at least 3:25:48.879 --> 3:25:52.160 it gives me hope that these things can get better. 3:25:53.240 --> 3:25:56.160 Yeah. I mean K and DF is a remarkable you 3:25:56.200 --> 3:26:02.560 know organization, crenatural defense organization, right, Kranny, Kranny. I mean 3:26:02.600 --> 3:26:06.080 they are led by very progressive sort of like you know, 3:26:06.879 --> 3:26:13.200 semi anarchist type young people. Yeah, you know, the the 3:26:13.400 --> 3:26:22.280 ethnicity and gender discrimination are self consciously avoided and discouraged. Yeah. 3:26:22.360 --> 3:26:27.080 So basically, other we we cannot we cannot have a 3:26:27.160 --> 3:26:34.160 successful revolutionary movement, you know, just by trying to you know, 3:26:34.640 --> 3:26:37.160 take power from the center. You know, there has to 3:26:37.240 --> 3:26:41.240 be you know, it's an rebellion. It's different from a 3:26:41.360 --> 3:26:49.920 revolutionary movement. Revolutionary movement involves a shifting fundamentally the non 3:26:50.040 --> 3:26:54.520 progressive values and outlooks. Right. That that is something that 3:26:54.600 --> 3:26:58.240 needs to happen, and that that, in my view U 3:26:59.160 --> 3:27:06.360 is a deeply you know, intellectual psychological process. But I 3:27:06.360 --> 3:27:10.600 think I think that the the the that is happening, 3:27:10.720 --> 3:27:15.320 you know, and so the so that that that ideological 3:27:16.000 --> 3:27:22.720 progressive shift is it's going to hit the uh, the 3:27:22.760 --> 3:27:27.640 ceiling at some point because you've got old men in 3:27:27.800 --> 3:27:33.680 a decision making positions who are not who haven't bought 3:27:33.720 --> 3:27:40.040 in entirely uh, the need to shift their value system. 3:27:40.120 --> 3:27:44.880 And then partially it's not simply ideological, it's also self interest. 3:27:45.480 --> 3:27:47.920 When you're when you're the when you're the boss for 3:27:48.000 --> 3:27:52.360 twenty five years, you know, you're a little like autocredit tyrant, 3:27:52.640 --> 3:27:56.440 you know what I mean, right, organization, So shifting the 3:27:57.000 --> 3:28:02.480 you know, giving women and younger generation spaces me you know, 3:28:02.879 --> 3:28:07.320 you shutting up fifty percent of the time and letting 3:28:07.400 --> 3:28:11.000 the other you know, people speak fifty percent, you know, 3:28:11.120 --> 3:28:14.160 like they're no more like monologue for one hour, you 3:28:14.200 --> 3:28:18.119 see what I mean. Yeah, so even like you know, 3:28:18.280 --> 3:28:22.080 the airtime, you have less airtime, that's like you're less. 3:28:22.440 --> 3:28:26.119 That's your self interest your airtime, you know, let alone 3:28:26.240 --> 3:28:31.000 economic and other interests. This is just like talking in 3:28:31.160 --> 3:28:33.520 a meeting, you see what I mean. I've been through 3:28:33.600 --> 3:28:35.480 like some of some of the meetings and stuff, and 3:28:35.520 --> 3:28:38.360 so you know, like guys think that only they have 3:28:38.800 --> 3:28:43.000 important things to say, you know, especially military matters or 3:28:43.080 --> 3:28:47.280 big items, okay, like women talk about welfare of children 3:28:47.440 --> 3:28:49.560 and you know, widows kind of shit. 3:28:50.400 --> 3:28:53.880 Yeah, yeah, this is very sort of still like separate 3:28:53.959 --> 3:28:56.520 spheres gender model that I know. Yeah, I have hope 3:28:56.520 --> 3:28:59.680 for the young generation. But I remember one of the 3:28:59.680 --> 3:29:04.880 guys as I met, he told me that, like he said, 3:29:05.000 --> 3:29:09.000 he said, like three years ago, I had some gender problems, 3:29:09.040 --> 3:29:11.120 and I didn't understand what he meant, and he was like, 3:29:11.240 --> 3:29:13.400 I thought that women couldn't do things that men could do, 3:29:13.640 --> 3:29:15.760 and now I realized I was wrong. And they were 3:29:15.800 --> 3:29:20.320 telling me that the police wouldn't there there was a 3:29:20.360 --> 3:29:25.600 taboo to walk underneath a woman's lunch. Yes, so yeah, 3:29:25.840 --> 3:29:28.120 so they hung them around their protest camps when they 3:29:28.120 --> 3:29:30.760 were in Yangon fighting the police, and that the police 3:29:30.760 --> 3:29:32.640 wouldn't come in, so that you were like, oh, this 3:29:32.720 --> 3:29:35.920 is when I realized that sexism hurts everyone. So I 3:29:35.920 --> 3:29:39.000 think it's yeah, I have hope for that generation. I 3:29:39.000 --> 3:29:41.879 think it's It's been one of the things that has 3:29:41.879 --> 3:29:44.959 given me so much hope for the world in general 3:29:45.400 --> 3:29:47.840 as I've been covering the revolution in the Amma, is 3:29:47.879 --> 3:29:53.400 to see people reconstruct and change their identities in a 3:29:53.480 --> 3:29:57.440 progressive and inclusive way, and people, you know, people in 3:29:57.480 --> 3:29:59.920 this countries and the UK as well are so stuff 3:30:00.320 --> 3:30:04.080 in their sort of regressive identities. And to see young 3:30:04.120 --> 3:30:08.520 people there acknowledged that sexism, homophobia, these these racist and 3:30:08.520 --> 3:30:13.760 inter ethnic like hierarchies are damaging everyone. It's given me 3:30:13.760 --> 3:30:15.720 a great deal of hope for the future. 3:30:17.400 --> 3:30:17.640 Yeah. 3:30:17.640 --> 3:30:21.039 I share your optimism. And part of it is, you know, 3:30:22.040 --> 3:30:26.800 the progressives or people or younger people or like older 3:30:26.840 --> 3:30:32.080 people with progressive outlooks. I mean, everything is constructed, you know, 3:30:32.160 --> 3:30:35.320 like if you change the material situation in terms of 3:30:35.959 --> 3:30:39.959 you know, who's making decisions or you know, under what 3:30:40.120 --> 3:30:44.279 conditions decisions are made, I think that people are able 3:30:44.360 --> 3:30:49.640 to shift their thinking, you see what I mean. I mean, 3:30:50.959 --> 3:30:55.439 And so I think like that, but definitely that political 3:30:55.560 --> 3:30:58.480 leadership is very important, you know. I mean I don't 3:30:58.520 --> 3:31:01.520 I don't believe in this like a goddess idea of 3:31:01.680 --> 3:31:04.680 like a group of men, uh you know, you know, 3:31:04.840 --> 3:31:09.160 guiding guiding the herd. Right, But at the same time, 3:31:09.200 --> 3:31:14.959 I think like these older men should meet the younger 3:31:15.000 --> 3:31:19.120 generations halfway. Yeah, And I'm not saying like okay, all right, 3:31:19.720 --> 3:31:22.160 you know, like a you know, like don't trust anyone 3:31:22.280 --> 3:31:25.120 above forty because I'm sixty, so I still want to 3:31:25.120 --> 3:31:30.240 be trusted. And but yeah, I mean I'm sixty and 3:31:30.480 --> 3:31:34.760 I can take ship from eighteen year old junior friend 3:31:34.840 --> 3:31:38.160 or colleague could tell me you're full of shit. And 3:31:38.560 --> 3:31:41.960 here's the reason I listen, Right, So I assume, like 3:31:42.240 --> 3:31:45.959 other other people my age, my generation, will be able 3:31:46.040 --> 3:31:50.680 to uh do the adjustment right and especially for the 3:31:50.720 --> 3:31:54.800 better and the But but I think that said there, 3:31:55.600 --> 3:32:01.519 they are really articulate young people and women, yes, who 3:32:01.560 --> 3:32:04.600 whose voices need to come to the full like you know, 3:32:04.720 --> 3:32:08.280 like people the people I mean, like we don't live 3:32:08.320 --> 3:32:11.720 in isolation anymore. Like in the nineteen sixties and seventies 3:32:11.760 --> 3:32:15.720 and agies, Burma was very isolated and so you know, 3:32:16.240 --> 3:32:21.480 and so the ideological currents did not reach within the 3:32:21.520 --> 3:32:27.280 Burmese society. So that the type of religions or religions 3:32:27.480 --> 3:32:32.560 I mean Christianity, the type of Christian practices outlook whatnot 3:32:33.120 --> 3:32:36.600 remain like extremely conservative compared with like you know, even 3:32:36.760 --> 3:32:43.040 like a conservative like Christian country like USA, yea. And 3:32:44.520 --> 3:32:46.680 but now, like you know, with we live in the 3:32:46.800 --> 3:32:49.840 social media internet age, and so you know, young people 3:32:50.840 --> 3:32:54.760 you know use the term like intersectionality, you know what 3:32:54.800 --> 3:32:57.800 I mean. They start to see like race, class, gender 3:32:57.840 --> 3:33:02.840 and other issues, you know, like inter intersecting and then 3:33:02.920 --> 3:33:08.680 producing or reproducing or ending like different forms of you know, 3:33:08.800 --> 3:33:13.680 repression and you know, exploitations and whatnot. We still have 3:33:13.800 --> 3:33:16.959 a very very long way to go. We can't shift. 3:33:17.959 --> 3:33:20.320 But that's not not to say that, you know, we 3:33:20.360 --> 3:33:25.039 should feel like discouraged, you know, but we we We 3:33:25.080 --> 3:33:27.600 won't see instant changes. 3:33:29.320 --> 3:33:32.320 No, yeah, but I think over time, Yeah, I have 3:33:32.400 --> 3:33:34.840 an deal of a great deal of optimism for the 3:33:34.879 --> 3:33:38.960 future of Memma, doctor Sanny. It's it's been really great talking. 3:33:39.400 --> 3:33:42.640 Where can people, especially people who are interested in your 3:33:42.680 --> 3:33:45.280 work and in the future of Memma, How how can 3:33:45.320 --> 3:33:49.039 they follow along with your work and with these struggles 3:33:49.040 --> 3:33:53.560 to create a more equal and just in democratic in 3:33:54.080 --> 3:33:56.039 the non state sense Burma. 3:33:56.520 --> 3:33:59.400 I mean one. I mean, I use social media, especially 3:33:59.440 --> 3:34:03.959 like in Facebook a lot, and I begin like consciously 3:34:04.040 --> 3:34:09.199 writing in Burmese language because I don't need to inform 3:34:09.280 --> 3:34:12.080 the world, because the world know the ship that's going 3:34:12.120 --> 3:34:18.480 on in Burma, and and so I think the my 3:34:18.600 --> 3:34:22.800 Facebook's okay. But if if people read like English or 3:34:22.879 --> 3:34:26.440 even like you know, other languages you know, our own 3:34:26.600 --> 3:34:31.959 mother tongue. Uh, the the Forces of Renewal Southeast Asia 3:34:32.040 --> 3:34:36.280 four c dot com CEO. It's a good platform. We 3:34:37.080 --> 3:34:41.879 encourage and actually we seek out uh you know, very 3:34:41.959 --> 3:34:47.800 radical ideas in multiple languages Burmese or or Chin or 3:34:47.920 --> 3:34:51.600 Karani or whatever language they want to use. We don't 3:34:51.640 --> 3:34:56.120 censor anyone. They can say anything as long as they're 3:34:56.160 --> 3:34:59.959 not advocating fascist them are violence or like you know, 3:35:00.800 --> 3:35:04.120 things like that. And so yeah, I encourage to take 3:35:04.120 --> 3:35:10.720 a glandset our South East Asia Network of anarchistic activists 3:35:10.720 --> 3:35:11.440 and scholars. 3:35:11.879 --> 3:35:14.360 Yeah. Yeah, it's a great website. I'll inclear a link 3:35:14.400 --> 3:35:16.920 to it in the description. Thank you so much for 3:35:16.959 --> 3:35:19.360 your time this evening. We really appreciate it. 3:35:22.520 --> 3:35:25.720 Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 3:35:25.760 --> 3:35:27.680 from now until the heat death of the Universe. 3:35:28.280 --> 3:35:30.640 It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 3:35:30.840 --> 3:35:33.520 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:35:33.560 --> 3:35:35.800 cool Zonemedia dot com. But check us out on the 3:35:35.840 --> 3:35:39.360 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 3:35:39.640 --> 3:35:41.760 You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated 3:35:41.840 --> 3:35:45.879 monthly at cool zonemedia, dot com, slash sources, thanks for listening.