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Speaker 1: Al Zone Media. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode.

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Speaker 1: So every episode of the week that just happened is

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Speaker 1: here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package

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Speaker 1: for you to listen to in a long stretch if

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Speaker 1: you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every

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Speaker 1: day this week, there's going to be nothing new here

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Speaker 1: for you, but you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 2: Either snow nor rain, nor heat nor darkness can stop

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Speaker 2: the Persian Courier Service. Welcome to Dick it Out here,

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Speaker 2: a podcast about postal services. Who reasked the question can

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Speaker 2: the American capitalist class finally stop the American post Office?

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Speaker 2: I'm your host, Mio Long and with me to talk

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Speaker 2: about what is going on with the post office, what's

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Speaker 2: going on with the post office unions, and yeah, how

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Speaker 2: things are going downhill for the noble people who carry

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Speaker 2: your mail. Is Tommy Espinoza, who's a union steward for

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Speaker 2: the National Association of Letter Carriers to welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me, Thank you so

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Speaker 3: much for giving us the mail care dollars, the male

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Speaker 3: carriers a platform to stand on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really I'm really happy to you and I'm

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Speaker 2: really happy to get to talk to you about this.

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Speaker 2: So I think the place we should start is with

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Speaker 2: a bunch of very very weird stuff in how labor

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Speaker 2: law works. So, Okay, for like most people in the

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Speaker 2: United States, you have a fatally protected right to strike

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Speaker 2: if you have a union. That is not true for

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Speaker 2: federal employees. That is especially not true for members of

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Speaker 2: the Post Office, and that is a real issue because

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Speaker 2: the government has decided that, like, yeah, I know, all

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Speaker 2: these people who do vital service are not allowed to

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Speaker 2: go on strike and it absolutely sucks. Yeah, So I

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Speaker 2: think this gets into sort of where I want to start,

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Speaker 2: which is with the sort of history of the National

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Speaker 2: Association of Life Carriers, a union that is not allowed

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Speaker 2: to strike, and how sort of weird that is. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: I was wondering if you could talk a bit about

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Speaker 2: sort of the origins of the union and what effect

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Speaker 2: that has had on how organizing works or doesn't work.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the right to strike has been a rather divisive topic.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure you're familiar with unions and just generally people

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Speaker 3: on our side of our side of politics to be

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Speaker 3: infighting a lot I shouldn't come to a surprise.

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Speaker 4: So in nineteen sixty nine.

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Speaker 3: Just over fifty years ago, the salary for postal workers

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Speaker 3: was under two dollars an hour. People were working months

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Speaker 3: straight with no days off, and those were close to

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Speaker 3: twelve hour days, And so these postal workers at the

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Speaker 3: time qualified for welfare and decided in nine teen seventy

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Speaker 3: to go on strike despite it being illegal. This conversation

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Speaker 3: is not new. It was illegal then, it's illegal now.

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Speaker 3: And I do want to be crystal clear here. I

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Speaker 3: am not advocating for a strike that would also be

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Speaker 3: against the law, and we don't advocate for anything that's

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Speaker 3: against the law. What I do want to advocate for

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Speaker 3: is the right to strike, because being quasi federal, there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of limitations in what the NAOC and the

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Speaker 3: general postal unions are able to do. In total, there

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Speaker 3: are nine bargaining agreements and seven unions within the Post Office,

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Speaker 3: some of which are the manager's unions, so take that

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Speaker 3: as it is. Yet, on top of not being able

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Speaker 3: to strike, none of our money that we collect as

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Speaker 3: union does can be used for lobbying purposes, so they

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Speaker 3: can't support a single candidate or any of the parties involved.

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Speaker 3: We have a separate fund for that with the NALC

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Speaker 3: called the Letter Carrier's Political Fund, to try and circumvent

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Speaker 3: the restrictions that are put on there. And as a

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Speaker 3: result of that, it's like we're fighting with our hands

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Speaker 3: tied behind our back. We are unable to organize effectively.

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Speaker 3: Our union leadership seems to be afraid of protests and

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Speaker 3: picketing for fear that it'll be misconstrued or labeled as

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Speaker 3: a strike, and they're I think generally afraid of public opinion.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a debilitating set of conditions because you've effectively

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Speaker 2: taken away sort of the two major tools that you know,

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Speaker 2: I mean unions of basically across all political stripes used, right,

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Speaker 2: You've taken away the ability to strike. You've taken away

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Speaker 2: the ability to use your due's money to influence actions.

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Speaker 2: So this immediately means you've taken away the tool that

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Speaker 2: sort of Milton unions use, which strikes, and you've taken

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Speaker 2: away the tools that more conservative unions use, which is

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Speaker 2: buying attempting to buy politicians. And then also your leadership

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Speaker 2: is like we can't strike, I mean, we can't protest

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Speaker 2: because someone might think it's a strike and the public

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Speaker 2: might commenitus, and it's like that that doesn't seem I

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Speaker 2: don't know, it really seems like it's like it's not

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Speaker 2: only have you tied both hands behind your back, you've

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Speaker 2: like tied them behind your back to your legs and

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Speaker 2: you're now rolling around on the ground.

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Speaker 3: Right, And to talk about what happens when we push

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Speaker 3: past all of these barriers and just do it anyways?

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Speaker 3: You know, in March nineteen seventy, two hundred and ten

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Speaker 3: thousand postal workers defied law, defied the general leadership of

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Speaker 3: the time. And it all started in New York where

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Speaker 3: people clocked in and at nine o'clock they just walked out. Soon,

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Speaker 3: let's see, it was Cleveland, Chicago, Los Angeles. The nation

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Speaker 3: joined very shortly after. Once it broke the news that

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Speaker 3: they were calling for a national strike. Nixon called in

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Speaker 3: the National Guard to try and deliver mail, and the

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Speaker 3: National Guard had no idea what they were doing. There's

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Speaker 3: an amazing video that I'll try and send you afterwards.

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Speaker 3: It's just the National Guard at our cases where we

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Speaker 3: sort the mail. An interviewer is asking him, do you

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Speaker 3: think that you're doing a good job? It's just like, no,

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Speaker 3: it's just some kid, you know. And don't get me wrong,

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Speaker 3: I'm just some guy. But you need the training, you

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Speaker 3: need to know what you're doing. And it's not something

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Speaker 3: that anyone can pick up in a day, but it's

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Speaker 3: a job that anyone can do. But yeah, for the

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Speaker 3: first time, the mail had stopped, and that won us

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Speaker 3: collective bargaining binding arbitration, which is a process that I

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Speaker 3: think most people within unions know what they mean, but

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Speaker 3: to explain it, arbitration is what happens when our parties

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Speaker 3: cannot agree on a settlement for a grievance, and eventually

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Speaker 3: we call in a third party, an arbitrator to decide

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Speaker 3: for us, and those are generally lawyers. On top of

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Speaker 3: binding arbitration, it gave us a new pay scale and

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Speaker 3: set in motion.

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Speaker 4: I think over.

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Speaker 3: It's got to be hundreds of raises between the colas

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Speaker 3: and the new pay table. It used to be twenty

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Speaker 3: one years for you to reach the top pay scale,

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Speaker 3: which is absolutely ridiculous, and I think it's eight. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: So the post Office was forced to reorganize, and so

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Speaker 3: is the union. This is where the American Postal Workers

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Speaker 3: Union was born and from this strike, we were able

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Speaker 3: to settle on the National Agreement. So there's the National Agreement,

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Speaker 3: which is our binding contract. There's the JCAM, which is

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Speaker 3: the Joint Contract Administration Manual, just what the Post Office

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Speaker 3: and the Union use as the interpretation of the contract.

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Speaker 3: That way, we are not arguing and spending time about

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Speaker 3: what the contract could mean. We can just focus on

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Speaker 3: whether or not someone broke our agreement. So after this,

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Speaker 3: one would imagine that a quasi federal institution would honor

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Speaker 3: the contract that was created, argain in good faith, and

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Speaker 3: treat their employees.

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Speaker 4: Isn't that right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know it's spoken like someone who has never

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Speaker 2: watched a federal cod action.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely not.

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Speaker 3: Before we get into issues that we face today, I

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Speaker 3: do want to say that one of the main goals

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Speaker 3: of our contract negotiations, or of this episode really is

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Speaker 3: to create public knowledge of how our contract is not

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Speaker 3: being adhered to. If there was one main goal that

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Speaker 3: I'd have in mind, is just to have the Post

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Speaker 3: Office honor what they signed and agreed to do.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is something that it's a part of

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Speaker 2: being in a union that doesn't get talked about very much,

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Speaker 2: which is that the contract doesn't mean anything unless the

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Speaker 2: union enforces it, because the moment the contract happens, the

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Speaker 2: bosses will attempt to not abide by it. And this

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Speaker 2: is what a lot of union militancy back in the

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Speaker 2: sort of heyday of militancy was. I mean, like, you know,

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Speaker 2: if you look at like how the UAW worked in

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Speaker 2: like the sixties, right, they'd have a guy with a

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Speaker 2: whistle standing on the line, and if someone did a

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Speaker 2: contract violation, he would blow the whistle and everyone would

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Speaker 2: just sit down and you'd immediately have a strike right it,

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Speaker 2: you know, And like that level of miltancy. You don't

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Speaker 2: need to be at that level to enforce a contract,

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Speaker 2: but you have to actually be willing to do stuff

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Speaker 2: and to fight management over it. And if you're not

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Speaker 2: willing to do that, your contract is effectively meaningless. And

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Speaker 2: that's a real issue with a lot of unions.

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Speaker 3: Which just kind of circles back to one of the

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Speaker 3: big issues that we face is that if we were

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Speaker 3: to do that, that would be a willingfu delay of mail,

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Speaker 3: and we could be charged for it just for trying

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Speaker 3: to enforce the contract.

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Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah, which the thing I think is really interesting,

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Speaker 2: just to circle back to the nineteen seventy strike. Is

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Speaker 2: that so the strike was illegal, right, Nixon brings in

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Speaker 2: the army, in the National Guard to break it, and

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Speaker 2: the strike still wins. And not only does it you know,

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Speaker 2: I mean you could argue whether it achieved total victory,

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Speaker 2: but not a single person who walked off the line

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Speaker 2: got arrested, even though all of them technically committed a crime.

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Speaker 2: And that's something that like, you know, I think, let

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Speaker 2: me okay, the the enforcements of laws depends on sort

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Speaker 2: of the the depends on a set of of relative

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Speaker 2: balance of forces and whether people care about enforce in

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Speaker 2: the law, which is how like for example, like if

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Speaker 2: you pirate like seven movies and you get you get

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Speaker 2: three copyright strike, you go to prison. But you know,

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Speaker 2: like the sam Alman or whatever like AI company can

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Speaker 2: literally steal everything on the entire Internet and get money

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Speaker 2: for it and no one will love to prosecute him, right,

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Speaker 2: And so so you know, whether or not something is

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Speaker 2: illegal is to a large extent or or the difference

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Speaker 2: between something being illegal and you going to prison for

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Speaker 2: it largely has to do with the balance of forces involved.

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Speaker 2: And that's something that you should keep in mind when

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Speaker 2: and this is this is the thing, this is the

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Speaker 2: thing that that cuts the other way too. Employers just

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Speaker 2: do illegal actions literally all the time, and it doesn't

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Speaker 2: matter because the state doesn't care.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, By and large, labor laws in America are set

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Speaker 3: up in favor of the businesses of the employers. If

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Speaker 3: you're familiar with workers comp or any of the systems

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Speaker 3: involved in the Federal Employees Compensation Act, it's not enforced.

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Speaker 3: We have cases that are pending arbitration where someone's been

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Speaker 3: run over by a worker has been run over by

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Speaker 3: a postal vehicle while they were working. The post office

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Speaker 3: effectively takes them off of payroll to increase the damage

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Speaker 3: done to the individual. Eventually, the Department of Labor says, yes,

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Speaker 3: we will pay this individual, and the post office is

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Speaker 3: liable to pay them now they are off the rolls,

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Speaker 3: which means there's a greater period of time before this

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Speaker 3: individual gets their money. And there's a certain form that

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Speaker 3: within the post office the managers need to fill out.

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Speaker 4: I believe it's an eighty one thirty or you know.

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Speaker 3: All these forms have some numbers associated with them that

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Speaker 3: they just refuse to fill out, and there's no recourse.

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Speaker 3: There's no cheez, a path for us to take to

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Speaker 3: make them hurry or make them get this individual the

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Speaker 3: money that they're owed. And some people this doesn't ruin

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Speaker 3: their lives and they've already paid off their house or whatever.

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Speaker 3: But I imagine for many many working Americans that's that's their

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Speaker 3: livelihood immediately down the drain.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, unfortunately we need to go to ads for a

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Speaker 2: little bit because unfortunately, my boss's boss's boss's livelihood depends

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Speaker 2: on these ads. By technically does too, but like lord knows,

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Speaker 2: I don't see that money.

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Speaker 5: So ads.

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Speaker 1: We are back.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I guess that leads into you the next

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Speaker 2: place you want to go to, which is talking about

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Speaker 2: what are the specific grievances today that y'all are dealing

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Speaker 2: with and the union is not dealing with.

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Speaker 3: Right So, in terms of grievances within the union and

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Speaker 3: a negotiation, a lot of it does have to do

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Speaker 3: with the aforementioned workers' compensation. Employees are just simply not

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Speaker 3: getting paid. I think the biggest problem with the union

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Speaker 3: and the grievance procedure today is that management has figured

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Speaker 3: out this really effective strategy if they don't settle on

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Speaker 3: the lower levels, and it gets pushed up to arbitration.

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Speaker 3: Then we have a massive backlog of cases appending arbitration,

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Speaker 3: which could be scheduled years out. I think if you

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Speaker 3: do the math for our current rate of handling these

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Speaker 3: cases and how many cases we have, it'll take around

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Speaker 3: fifteen years to get through the long.

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Speaker 2: Christ not assuming there's no new ones.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's like you know when you go to a

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Speaker 3: restaurant and there's that little stanchion out there that says

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Speaker 3: it's a five hour wait from this point. That's the

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Speaker 3: point that we're at. Anything beyond today will be further

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Speaker 3: along Jesus Christ. And so I think that is just

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Speaker 3: a major problem for us clearly. Yeah, management just not

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Speaker 3: complying with any of the and it makes it so

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Speaker 3: that our employees have to wait.

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Speaker 4: Something I do want.

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Speaker 3: To talk about that's outside of the grievance procedure if

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Speaker 3: we can, is just what's going on with the post

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Speaker 3: Office and the Postmaster General. Yeah, all right, So I

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Speaker 3: want to go at this from the customer perspective first,

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Speaker 3: because I think that's the best way to relate to people.

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Speaker 3: I think by and large, people are losing faith in

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Speaker 3: the Post Office. Either you have no idea what's going on,

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Speaker 3: or you don't care, and that's fine, I'd say. Before

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Speaker 3: I joined, I didn't think of them at all. You know,

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Speaker 3: they're just the guy that shows up at my house

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Speaker 3: every morning. A lot of people seem to think that

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Speaker 3: the post Office is going out of business, and our

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Speaker 3: customers are facing increasingly long lines, misdelivered or lost mail,

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Speaker 3: and an increase in postage for a service that is

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Speaker 3: getting worse. People are paying more for worse service, and

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Speaker 3: it's easy to point out the issues from the outside

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Speaker 3: and be rightfully upset at them. I do feel like

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Speaker 3: we're doing a disservice to our our customers, and I'm

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Speaker 3: not really not trying to attack them when I say

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Speaker 3: that they're uninformed or clueless to the inner workings of

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Speaker 3: the Post Office. I do directly want to attack Congress

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Speaker 3: and say that, yeah, when they post They had pushed

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Speaker 3: forward a bill called the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act

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Speaker 3: in two thousand and six, which required the Post Office

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Speaker 3: to prefund one hundred percent of its retiree health benefits

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Speaker 3: and liabilities seventy five years into the future. What so, overnight,

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Speaker 3: the Post Office was handed a five point five billion

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Speaker 3: dollar burden, and that's where the whole I don't know

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Speaker 3: if you remember, I certainly wasn't conscious of it at

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Speaker 3: the time, to save our post office stickers that were

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Speaker 3: being sold and trying to fund the post Office. And

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Speaker 3: really that's where the rhetoric of the post Office is

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Speaker 3: going under comes from. The Other thing I want to

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Speaker 3: point out is that we are a quasi federal We

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Speaker 3: actually accept nothing from tax payer monies. It says it's

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Speaker 3: a service, but really the post Office has ran as

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Speaker 3: a business. We don't even get subsidized because they don't

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Speaker 3: need to. My local union president loves to remind us

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Speaker 3: that the post Office is a business that has a

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Speaker 3: revenue of seventy eight point two billion dollars, and he'll

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Speaker 3: want me to stress that the point two is extremely

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Speaker 3: important because point two of a billion is twenty million.

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Speaker 3: They are not in jeopardy. We are not going out

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Speaker 3: of business. And the Postmaster General, Louis de Joy, he's

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Speaker 3: the second highest paid public servant in America, just underneath

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Speaker 3: the President of the United States.

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Speaker 2: He's played Ward and Clarence Thomas.

302
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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was like three hundred and eighty

304
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,600
Speaker 3: two thousand a year or something. Like that the Joy

305
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:08,160
Speaker 3: was appointed by Donald Trump. I'm assuming this is kind

306
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,120
Speaker 3: of a baseless assumption, so forgive me. I'm not doing

307
00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,560
Speaker 3: my research here, but I'm assuming that they're buddies because

308
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:15,800
Speaker 3: d Joy has no idea.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, wasn't Wasn't she the guy that Trump brought in,

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Speaker 2: like specifically to destroy the post office as part of

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Speaker 2: the campaign to steal the election.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's been a lot about the Joy defrauding

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Speaker 3: the election process. I wasn't part of the post office

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Speaker 3: to see the inner workings of it, so it's kind

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Speaker 3: of hard for me to say if it was hearsay

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Speaker 3: or not, but I believe it because the Joy has

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Speaker 3: no idea how to run a post office. He's never

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Speaker 3: been involved with this kind of business. He is in

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Speaker 3: the same way that Trump is a businessman, a horrible businessman,

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Speaker 3: and his Delivering for America plan could really be redefined

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Speaker 3: as consolidation efforts for a business. So what they're doing

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Speaker 3: is their consolidating infrastructure and the workforce, which means closing

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Speaker 3: post offices in order to save money and shoving three

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Speaker 3: installations into one building. That's why the lines are getting longer.

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Speaker 3: It also means that from dispatch, the employees have to

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Speaker 3: drive an extra mile or two into their working zone,

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Speaker 3: which of course means that we're going to go into overtime,

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Speaker 3: and this just throws a wrench in the mail handling process.

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Speaker 3: He has single handedly made the service a lot more reliable,

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Speaker 3: and I do think that you're right. Irreliable, yeah, sorry,

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Speaker 3: more unreliable, And I do think that you're right. He

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Speaker 3: wants to destroy the post office not only for the election,

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Speaker 3: but to the point where it makes more sense to

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Speaker 3: go private. Now is the time to point out that

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00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:57,240
Speaker 3: the joy is a major shareholder in FedEx, which is.

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Speaker 4: Which is a subcontractor for the.

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Speaker 3: USPS, and he has millions of dollars in equity involved.

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Speaker 4: He's got skin in the game.

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Speaker 2: Love open corruption so great.

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Speaker 3: And so on the local level, on what's going on

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Speaker 3: in my office, I actually have one of the better

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Speaker 3: offices that I've seen or heard about. I have been

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Speaker 3: sent to other offices and I have experience firsthand the

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Speaker 3: bullying and harassment from management pushing us to go faster.

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Speaker 3: But even at one of the better offices, I work

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Speaker 3: sixty hour weeks. I don't have set days off. It's

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Speaker 3: not even a rotation. When I get home. I'm spent.

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Speaker 3: And my commute isn't that bad. I think I'm about

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Speaker 3: fifteen minutes each way, and I really can't imagine driving

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Speaker 3: two hours after an eleven hour shift just to eat

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Speaker 3: and come back and do it again.

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Speaker 6: I mean, that's just unsafe, Like that's see.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it would be illegal, but since it's in

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Speaker 3: the contract, it's not illegal.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god.

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Speaker 3: So the sacrifice that you make when you're joining the

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Speaker 3: post Office, well, I guess I should explain. When you

358
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Speaker 3: join as a letter carrier, the first ninety days, they

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00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,920
Speaker 3: can fire you for any reason, and you're something called

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Speaker 3: either a CCA or a PTF, and that means part

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Speaker 3: time flexible or a city carrier assistant. You are only

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00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,399
Speaker 3: guaranteed four hours for showing up for work. You're not

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Speaker 3: guaranteed to be scheduled. So if they don't like you,

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Speaker 3: they just will schedule schedule you once a week for

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Speaker 3: an unknown amount of time until you quit. And if

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Speaker 3: you're in a busy place, then that just means that

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00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,399
Speaker 3: they're going to work you to death. So when you

368
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 3: join the workforce, immediately you lose time with your family.

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Speaker 3: You lose time with your loved ones and your friends,

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Speaker 3: and I myself am so fortunate that all my loved

371
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 3: ones have been beyond understanding. But every time I talk

372
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 3: about it, I get asked the same thing, why don't

373
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Speaker 3: you quit?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

375
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Speaker 3: And the truth is, this job is awesome. I love it.

376
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Speaker 3: I want to work it. I just want it to

377
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 3: make sense and be livable. And I'm not gonna give

378
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 3: up just because we haven't reached the point where it is.

379
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 3: You know, if you walk away now, it doesn't get better.

380
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 3: I'm sure someone would take my place. But it helps

381
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:34,719
Speaker 3: to have people stick around.

382
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Speaker 2: That's actually a pretty comedy. I mean, this is one

383
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 2: of the Amazon strategy right through from their warehouses. They

384
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 2: intentionally want to cycle through people because the more the

385
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 2: more new people you have continuously cycling through, the less

386
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,439
Speaker 2: organized and the less sort of like must knowledge, they

387
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 2: have less you have to pay them, et cetera, et cetera,

388
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 2: et cetera. And so if you can just cause high

389
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 2: turnover rates on purpose, that's the thing that a lot

390
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 2: of these sort of business gohoule like Nightmare or factory

391
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 2: people love in their workforces and makes everyone else's life

392
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Speaker 2: just a living hell. But you know they're getting They're

393
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 2: still getting paid.

394
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Speaker 4: Right, and so I try and hold that in mind.

395
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 3: When I've been overworked and I'm at the end of

396
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Speaker 3: one of my major shifts because I had to carry

397
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 3: part of another route because someone else called out, I

398
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,919
Speaker 3: really have to stop and think to myself that this

399
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 3: other person who called out is just as exhausted as

400
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 3: I am is probably going to get a letter of

401
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:51,680
Speaker 3: warning for calling out.

402
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 4: That's another issue. They don't want you to use your leave.

403
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ.

404
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 3: I'm going to file an unfair labor practice because they've

405
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 3: been doing that a lot at my office as well.

406
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 4: It reminds me a.

407
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 3: Lot are issues of your recent episode. I think it

408
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,360
Speaker 3: was you about the nurses Union, the shift change episode.

409
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 3: Their members are dealing with a lot of the same things,

410
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 3: where the unions are so big that they become detached

411
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 3: from the membership and we are finding out afterwards what

412
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 3: our bargaining agreements are, what our strategy was. Everything's after

413
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 3: the contract has been signed, and that's just not how

414
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 3: unions were meant to be. They're meant to be from

415
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,400
Speaker 3: the bottom up, by the workers, for the workers. But

416
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 3: it really does feel like it's like National is its

417
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,959
Speaker 3: own entity, and so I guess that would bring us

418
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 3: to talking about the union and the future of the union.

419
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's get into that.

420
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 3: So I got to be careful here because Brian Renfro,

421
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 3: he's our national leader of the union. He's been struggling

422
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 3: with problems in his personal life, and I don't feel

423
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 3: like I'm outsteeing him as its public knowledge, at least

424
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 3: within the Post office.

425
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 4: It's public knowledge.

426
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 3: He's dealing with substance abuse, with alcoholism, and that's something

427
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 3: that hits very close to home within my family, and

428
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,919
Speaker 3: I really don't want to demonize that he's struggling. But

429
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 3: what I do want to say is when you're going

430
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 3: through something like that and you've accepted a position on

431
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 3: the national level like this, you really need to either

432
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 3: step down or appoint someone to handle things in your place.

433
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 3: As negotiations started over a year ago, he kind of

434
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 3: went missing and it was later revealed that he was inpatient,

435
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 3: which is fine, get your help, but there was nothing left,

436
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 3: no notes left for us to strategize with, and our

437
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:06,199
Speaker 3: membership is just in the dark. And beyond that, the

438
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 3: leadership has gone missing. It's it's very dark times for

439
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 3: the NAOC.

440
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 2: Well, and that that's also just sort of like an

441
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 2: organizational problem, right like if if you're if your organization

442
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 2: is set up in such a way that a small

443
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,919
Speaker 2: number of people being incapacitated means total paralysis and no

444
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 2: one has any idea what's going on. That's just a

445
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 2: bad way to run something. And especially it's a terrible

446
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 2: way to run a union because the union's you know,

447
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 2: power is supposed to be from from its organization and

448
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 2: from the collective power of a large, large, organized group

449
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:45,719
Speaker 2: of people who can make decisions for themselves. And if

450
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 2: it's if that's not happening and you get to the

451
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 2: point where these decisions are being made by a very

452
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 2: small number of people who can just sort of vanish,

453
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 2: like that's that for whatever, And you know, literally whatever

454
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 2: reason that is, right, it could just be you get sick.

455
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 2: It could just be like whatever happens. That's just a

456
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 2: terrible way to organize things. And I guess it's also

457
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 2: like I want to make take it like like like

458
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 2: a little tiny tangent to be like, if you're doing

459
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,239
Speaker 2: any organizing project, your goal is to organize yourself out

460
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 2: of a job, Like you're like ideally, if you were

461
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 2: in an organization, it should be able to function without you.

462
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 2: There should Not having an indispensable person is a fiasco.

463
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 5: Don't do that.

464
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 2: This is true of both like your tiny local mutual

465
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 2: aid group, as much as is true of your giant

466
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 2: national union. So that this this has been this has

467
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 2: been mea talking about the indispensable person don't have.

468
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that's kind of the funny thing about joining

469
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 3: a union from an anarchist perspective. It gets a little

470
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 3: funky how hierarchical they typically are, and the problems that

471
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 3: we know we are going to face when you have

472
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 3: a system that's built like a pyramid.

473
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah.

474
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 3: And so I was saying, we're in dark time, but

475
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 3: there's such a bright future that I can see for

476
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 3: us Branch nine of the NALC, and namely this individual

477
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,479
Speaker 3: Tyler Vasser, who when I had originally posted on Reddit

478
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 3: asking for attention, he's the one that I thought would

479
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 3: be great for this interview. His branch, Branch nine has

480
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 3: passed a resolution to form an open bargaining strategy for

481
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 3: contract negotiations, and I hope this sweeps the nation. We're

482
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 3: not allowed to strike, as I've mentioned, and our leadership

483
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 3: is so shy when it when it comes to activism

484
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 3: or mobilization of the workforce, they don't want to touch

485
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 3: the topic. The closest thing we have to it is

486
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 3: a rally that is enough is Enough that's being held

487
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 3: in Baltimore soon about the violence that's being done to

488
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 3: postal workers. We're being robbed and we're being harassed, But

489
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 3: even then we're missing a large chunk of the danger

490
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 3: that is posed to postal workers, because yes, we're being

491
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 3: robbed on the streets, but we're also being bullied and

492
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 3: harassed inside of our work places by management, by the

493
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 3: people who are supposed to empower us to do the

494
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 3: job effectively.

495
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 4: And so they don't want to touch the topic of

496
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 4: a strike, I think, for fear of retaliation. But to me,

497
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 4: pushing for the right to strike is a I'm not

498
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 4: sure how to word this. It is such.

499
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 3: An important part of the nilc's identity, the postal strike

500
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 3: of nineteen seventy, that it seems silly to ignore it

501
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 3: today and pretend like it didn't happen. So for the future,

502
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 3: I think that activism is our key to success. I

503
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 3: think that the old heads that lead our union come

504
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 3: from a time where unions were frowned upon where activism

505
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 3: was frowned upon. But I think that public opinion will

506
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 3: be largely in our favor, and that public opinion can

507
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 3: really put pressure on the legislative branch on Congress, and

508
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 3: if we are transparent about our union, what we're asking for,

509
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 3: the issues that we're facing, I think that the public

510
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 3: would be on our side. If the people in America

511
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 3: knew that management was falsifying time records or training records

512
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 3: and interfering with workers' comps, claim and back pay, or

513
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 3: that they're not paying the settlements that they've agreed to pay,

514
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 3: that they're not scheduling arbitration sessions big or small, that

515
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 3: they would care, and that they would join us in

516
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 3: the streets. One major thing that happened, I think it

517
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 3: was last year in the summer, we had a letter carrier,

518
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 3: his name is Eugene Gates, who died in the Texas

519
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 3: heat Jesus year because management told him not to take

520
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 3: as many breaks or he would face discipline. These pressures

521
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 3: that we face when when you're threatened that you will

522
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 3: lose your job if you don't listen to us, you

523
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 3: will push yourself to the point of exhaustion and further, Yeah,

524
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 3: I think that the Post Office killed mister Gates and

525
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 3: there wasn't as much outcry or.

526
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 4: Or anger behind the movement.

527
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:53,239
Speaker 3: I often find myself thinking that while I don't have

528
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 3: the answers, I do know that we need to care more. Yeah,

529
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 3: and it's hard to care when you're exhausted. I acknowledge that.

530
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 7: Yeah.

531
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's two things about that. One, I mean,

532
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 2: I don't and this is something I've gotten to with

533
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 2: a lot of the sort of interviews that I've done

534
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 2: on this show, is that I think a lot of

535
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 2: very very basic jobs have labor conditions that are unimaginably

536
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: appalling that people just don't know about. And I think

537
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 2: people are very sympathetic too, once they actually understand what's

538
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 2: happening in the kind of just horror show stuff that's

539
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 2: happening in these workplaces. And the second thing I think

540
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 2: that's sort of important in terms of getting people to

541
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 2: you know, trying to actually do like mass mobilizations even

542
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 2: just to get people to understand what's going on, is

543
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 2: that I think a lot of people who are facing

544
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 2: these kinds of conditions think that they're alone and think

545
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 2: that it's just something that happens to them, or they've

546
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: been in them for so long they think that it's

547
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 2: sort of normal. And having a bunch of people go no,

548
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 2: like a this happens and be it shouldn't happen is

549
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 2: extraordinarily powerful because you know, like that that feeling of

550
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 2: isolation is is the thing that all of that you know,

551
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 2: you're that your bosses depend on to make sure that

552
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 2: you know you you just keep going along with these

553
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 2: conditions even though they are just objectively horrific. And I

554
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 2: think any strategy that's not based on that is just

555
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 2: not going to go anywhere.

556
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 3: Right, And one of the strategies that I really want

557
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 3: to push forward as I grow within the union. And

558
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 3: don't get me wrong, I want to stay as steward.

559
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 3: I think that educating our members and uh being part

560
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 3: of the workforce is my place in the union. But

561
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 3: what I want to push is for union solidarity. I

562
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 3: want the NLC to hire organizers, specifically organizers to try

563
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 3: and get the public mobilized and as well as the workforce,

564
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 3: so that we can put pressure on Congress, so that

565
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 3: we can show our bargaining teams that we support them,

566
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 3: and so that we can have clearly defined bargaining terms.

567
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 3: And yeah, I think that having solidarity between unions and

568
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 3: reaching out to the other movements in a time where

569
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,919
Speaker 3: union support is higher than ever is such a clear

570
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:30,800
Speaker 3: path that we are just ignoring for whatever reason because

571
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 3: people are afraid to speak out against the Post Office.

572
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 3: And so I'm really not sure what's going to happen

573
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 3: with our current contract, but I do know that the

574
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 3: fight never ends, and that while we stand on the

575
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 3: shoulders of giants, we have to pay respect to these

576
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 3: giants by not giving up now. And I'm a relatively

577
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 3: new employee and steward, but I'm really walking in the

578
00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:01,399
Speaker 3: footsteps of some warriors. The branch president I mentioned, Ken

579
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 3: Lurch has given me so much support and education and

580
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 3: has done so much hard work over the years that

581
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 3: I don't have to reinvent the wheel, none of us do.

582
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 3: We just have to continue the struggle.

583
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think I think that's a great place

584
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 2: to end you unless you have anything else that you

585
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 2: want to make sure we get to.

586
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 4: No, nothing, nothing on this topic.

587
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, So how can how can people support you and

588
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 2: postal workers just in general? If there's specific place you

589
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 2: want them to go?

590
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:35,840
Speaker 4: In general?

591
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 3: There is on the na LC site, which is just

592
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 3: an ALC dot com. There is a section where you

593
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 3: put in your address and it it'll give you the

594
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 3: email addresses, the phone numbers for your representatives so that

595
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 3: you can make some noise. Again, we're amazingly limited in

596
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 3: what we can do, so there's not really anything that

597
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 3: you can donate to to help us, including the letter

598
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:08,839
Speaker 3: carrier political fund.

599
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 4: But yeah, just pay attention to us.

600
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 3: Maybe leave a bottle of water out in your front door,

601
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 3: says for the postal worker. You know, there's nothing better

602
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 3: that you can do than talking about it. Word of

603
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 3: mouth is the best advertisement.

604
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, we will, we will. We will put that

605
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 2: in the show notes. I help you all win, and

606
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,280
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't think I've ever said this genuinely

607
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 2: in my life, but thank you for your service.

608
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 4: I appreciate that. Yeah.

609
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 3: I never imagined myself to become a federal employee, and

610
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 3: it is just as bad as I imagined. Yeah, so

611
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,320
Speaker 3: I do want to shout out Actually it's a little meta,

612
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,399
Speaker 3: I guess, but I do want to shout out some

613
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 3: important episodes of it could happen here that.

614
00:37:58,200 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 4: Hit me very closely. If I can.

615
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, go for it because a lot of the

616
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 3: people listening will be postal workers that have been pointed

617
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 3: in this direction. Please look at the May and Mar episodes,

618
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 3: the Free burm the Burmese Revolution, and look at the

619
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 3: work that me I believe you've done the same work

620
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 3: as James with border kindness.

621
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 4: Those are two topics that.

622
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 3: I think y'all hit really well and that really touched

623
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 3: me as a person. Sometimes I'll relisten to those episodes

624
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 3: when I'm having a hard day just to remind myself

625
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 3: that it's all the same. It's all the same fight.

626
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it absolutely is, And I mean I think that's

627
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 2: that's sort of the beauty. I mean, it's it's both

628
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 2: the beauty and the horror of this world is that

629
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,760
Speaker 2: on the one hand, all of us are being crushed

630
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 2: by the same sets of forces. But on the other hand,

631
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 2: it means that whatever fight that you're taking is also

632
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 2: a part of the larger fight forget all.

633
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 4: Of us free.

634
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly, So just fight the burnout and stay in

635
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 3: the fight.

636
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: Yep.

637
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is pennicket Apple. Here go make trouble for

638
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:13,919
Speaker 2: people who suck.

639
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 7: Hi.

640
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 5: Everyone, it's James. We just wanted to let you know

641
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 5: that some new shit has come to light since since

642
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 5: we recorded this. Specifically, a former staff of was A

643
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 5: Your Kitchen who resigned who was of Palestinian descent wrote

644
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 5: an op ed I guess in Mundweiss, which is a

645
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 5: publication that covers is rather Palestine and the United States

646
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 5: role there, and it's given us some more information about

647
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 5: what's the tr kitchen that we didn't know when we

648
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 5: first recorded this, and so we are going to address

649
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 5: out at the end. So after the second ad break,

650
00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 5: Charles will go Sherean and I will come back and

651
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 5: we gonna address some stuff that we found in that

652
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 5: op ed. We will also link it in the description

653
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 5: to this podcast.

654
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 8: Yes, it's a really good article. I recommend you guys

655
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 8: give it a full read. But yeah, we will be

656
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 8: talking all about it at the end, so please listen

657
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:17,919
Speaker 8: to the whole episode. Hello, everybody, welcome to it could

658
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 8: happen here today. I am joined by my illustrious colleague.

659
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 5: James Hi James, Hi Scheren.

660
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 8: And my now friend Charles McBride. Hi, Charles, welcome back

661
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 8: to the show.

662
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 5: Hi, no friends, Sharen.

663
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 9: It's wonderful to be here and to know that you're

664
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 9: a real person, not a yeah.

665
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 10: Fun fact.

666
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 8: I have met Charles in person, but I have not

667
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 8: met James in person, and I think that's pretty funny.

668
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,840
Speaker 5: That's why I got colleague and Charles ki friends.

669
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,839
Speaker 10: Tech that don't read into that.

670
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 6: Okay, we have.

671
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 8: We're talking about World Central Kitchen and the tragedy that

672
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,839
Speaker 8: happened last week in which seven AID workers were killed.

673
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 8: Both of these gentlemen have personal experience with the organization,

674
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 8: so I thought it would be good to talk about.

675
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 8: But James take it.

676
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 5: Away, Okay, So yeah, I think I think we should

677
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 5: maybe start off Charles, you and I've both seen World

678
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 5: Central Kitchen in different places. Like my longest experience with

679
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 5: them was starting in twenty eighteen in Tijuana, right when

680
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 5: we were trying to feed people who were part of

681
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 5: a caravan of migrants who had arrived right before the midterms,

682
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,439
Speaker 5: and what was a relatively normal thing became a really

683
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 5: big political sort of football, which resulted in the people,

684
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 5: remember like people being tear gassed in Mexico from inside

685
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 5: the United States, people being held first in a baseball

686
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 5: stadium and then in an old strip club, which was

687
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 5: really gross. And they're being essentially no and goo presence

688
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 5: at first and then Mutual Aid Presence and then World

689
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 5: Central Kitchen were one of the first people to show

690
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 5: up and cook for people, and like, at this point,

691
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 5: there was a really dying of need for food. Like

692
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 5: I have this vivid memory of three of my friends

693
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 5: and I are riding in a bed of a pickup

694
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 5: truck into this refugee camp and people just mobbing for

695
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 5: food and water, and like people would get about, like

696
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 5: not stamping on children once once we stopped, but like

697
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:14,839
Speaker 5: I was really worried there was going to be a crash.

698
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 5: People were very hungry and very thirsty, and I had

699
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 5: just had massive respect for people showing up and just

700
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 5: being like, we are people who cook food, and what

701
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 5: we're here to do is cook food and these people

702
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 5: are hungry who were going to give it to them?

703
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:31,399
Speaker 5: And so I've always been admiring of their work since then.

704
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 5: And I went to Childs, like what your sort of

705
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 5: initial experience was with them, and if you could describe

706
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 5: like sort of what sort of work you've seen them doing. Yeah, So.

707
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 9: First experience that I had with World Central Kitchen was

708
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 9: actually hands off. It was when my friends and I

709
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 9: we created this thing four years ago called the Farm

710
00:42:54,120 --> 00:43:00,720
Speaker 9: Project which is a food rescue organization. It basically finds

711
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 9: food that's going to waste on farms and pays the

712
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 9: wages of the truckers and the drivers to transport the

713
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 9: food to food banks that are overworked. We sort of

714
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 9: tagged in with World Central Kitchen in the beginning of

715
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 9: COVID and talked with them a little bit, but there

716
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 9: was never any official partnership. Some of their comms people

717
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 9: gave us advice, some of their fundraising people gave us advice.

718
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 9: First time I ever saw them in operation was coming

719
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 9: into the Jimish train station week two of the Ukraine War,

720
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 9: and they were the organization feeding all the refugees coming

721
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 9: in a bunch of people in World Central Kitchen, and

722
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:42,760
Speaker 9: the thing I noticed was none of them were speaking English.

723
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 9: They were all speaking Polish and Ukrainian or Russian. And

724
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 9: I started to realize, this is an organization that knows

725
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 9: how to mobilize a local population and a local response

726
00:43:55,880 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 9: as a part of the thing. And that's something I

727
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 9: really noticed when almost a year later, I flew from

728
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 9: Ukraine to Turkey when a seven point five Magetude earthquake

729
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 9: went through southeastern Turkey, Kardistan and I flew into Adanna

730
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 9: and then basically linked up with the World's Central Kitchen

731
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 9: people in the city of Osmania. And one of the

732
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 9: things I noticed was how quickly they were able to

733
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 9: get into Syria when nobody else was getting into Syria.

734
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 9: And the reason is because it's just chefs. It's just

735
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 9: using chefs in restaurants in places where they already exist.

736
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 9: Every place in the world has chefs and restaurants. And

737
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 9: Jose Andres has this amazing quote that I really like.

738
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 9: He says, everyone already works for World Central Kitchen, they

739
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 9: just don't know it yet. And I saw that in action.

740
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,800
Speaker 9: I saw all these kitchens transformed into you know, shelters

741
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 9: and food distribution sites, and I got to work alongside

742
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 9: their team. So my project, I was trying to fundraise

743
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 9: for heaters and blankets to heat the AFAD tents in

744
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 9: the affected regions in Kurdistan and in the Kurdish villages

745
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 9: on the on the border with Syria, because there was

746
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,799
Speaker 9: it was still very cold at that time and there

747
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 9: was not you know, adequate attention paid to that. Obviously,

748
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 9: AFAD and its cronies is part of the whole reason

749
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 9: that that incident was as bad as it was, but

750
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 9: World Central Kitchen stepped up in a big way in Turkey,

751
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 9: and I was really impressed with kind of their outfit.

752
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 9: We were working out of the same distribution center, you know.

753
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 9: I got to a company, Jose Andres on a couple

754
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 9: of his deliveries, and we went in to Hate and

755
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 9: walked around and saw the extent of the devastation and

756
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 9: visited all the World Central Kitchen feeding sites, and it

757
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,280
Speaker 9: was just it was all Turkish people and Gurtish people

758
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 9: who were there working from World Central Kitchen. They had

759
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 9: been mobilized by this entity. So there's this decentralized element

760
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 9: to World Central Kitchen that I found really impressive. It

761
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 9: didn't feel like the top down, bureaucratic thing I kept

762
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 9: throwing into in my humanitarian work with these big NGOs.

763
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 9: It was much more grassroots, much more bottom up. So

764
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 9: it gained a lot of respect for me in that sense.

765
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's a really good point to make

766
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 5: that they do have a different model. It allows them

767
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:18,399
Speaker 5: to be flexible. It's allowed them to be places where

768
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 5: other people aren't like. I think a lot of people,

769
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 5: perhaps like are not as familiar with the NGO world

770
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 5: as you and I might be like, like, NGOs often

771
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 5: present themselves in places where people need help, but it's like,

772
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:34,720
Speaker 5: you know, they have large office buildings and white land cruises,

773
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 5: and they have one way of doing things and it's

774
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,359
Speaker 5: their way, and sometimes that doesn't work well. I can

775
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 5: recount countless examples of this, right, NGOs that exist to

776
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 5: do things in a certain way and don't adapt to

777
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:51,240
Speaker 5: a local situation or culture. And that's something the World's

778
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 5: Central Kitchen have done really well in my experience, all

779
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:54,720
Speaker 5: over the world.

780
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 9: Yeah, they graft themselves on to a local response and

781
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 9: every everywhere that they go, it takes on the local flavor.

782
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 9: And I think it's that's why this happened, is because

783
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 9: they inserted themselves into a highly volatile situation and because

784
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 9: they are so decentralized, and because they are so on

785
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 9: the ground, they also exposed themselves to the realities of

786
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 9: what Palestinians have been facing in Gaza and lost members

787
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 9: of their team, you know as a result. And I

788
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 9: think that is part of that is there's a lot

789
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 9: of people who won't even go into Gaza, you know,

790
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 9: if they had the opportunity, like you said, these big NGOs,

791
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 9: I think last time I was on the on the

792
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 9: podcast Sharen, I talked about, you know, seeing these big

793
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 9: UN advertisements in the Copenhagen airport saying save Ukrainian children

794
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 9: when I first when I was going over there, and

795
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 9: then as soon as I got there, I mean, the

796
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,320
Speaker 9: minute you go east to Leviv, You're not going to

797
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 9: see a UN truck anywhere. And it was it was

798
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 9: that way for nine months, you know. In Yeah, it

799
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 9: was just a bunch of people with like brand new

800
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 9: white Land Cruise or Pratos, sipping cocktails and Leviv while

801
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 9: subcontracting with actual humanitarians working closer to the front line.

802
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 9: World Central Kitchen was not that way. They were all

803
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:11,720
Speaker 9: the way out, all the way on the east. Everywhere

804
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,359
Speaker 9: I went there was World Central Kitchen cars, even deep

805
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 9: into Donyetsk, And that was really impressive. It was so

806
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 9: it felt antithetical to the whole nonprofit industrial complex model

807
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 9: that I'd become familiar with, and I was impressed by that.

808
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, So perhaps we should to speak about exactly what

809
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 5: they were doing in Ghaz because I think people are

810
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 5: practical a little confused. There's been a lot of like

811
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 5: misinformation from all kinds of angles about what they were

812
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 5: doing in Gaza, So do you have a good handle

813
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 5: on that.

814
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 9: I mean, World Central Kitchen positioned itself. They engage in

815
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 9: slightly more activist humanitarianism than most organizations, which is why

816
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:59,479
Speaker 9: I mean jose Andres went big on Ukraine. He was there,

817
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 9: he brought the whole team. I mean, they put they

818
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 9: dedicated so many resources to Ukraine, and for him it

819
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 9: was unequivocal. Ukrainians are the good guys, Russians are the

820
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 9: bad guys. We're helping the victims of this conflict, and

821
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 9: you know, we're on the side of the angels in

822
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 9: this and that was the positioning, and I think it

823
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:21,439
Speaker 9: was a bit of a wake up call when after

824
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 9: October seventh he did the same thing in Israel and

825
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 9: went and you know, gave food to the to the

826
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:29,879
Speaker 9: to the different Kibut seam that were affected by the

827
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 9: October seventh attacks, and at first very much positioned himself

828
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 9: as like, we're here to help relieve the affect at

829
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 9: israelis which again for like polite liberals in the humanitarian world.

830
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 9: You know, Israel Ukraine both aligned with Western interests, Western

831
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 9: values theoretically, and I think and then you know, suddenly

832
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,320
Speaker 9: the war focus goes from what happened to the kibbut

833
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 9: seem to what's happening in Gaza. And so they went

834
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 9: to Egypt and they started helping the refugees, and then

835
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 9: they tried to get into Gaza. Then they did get

836
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 9: into Gaza and they set up, you know, an effective

837
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:15,360
Speaker 9: system of the food aid. And I started to notice

838
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 9: while that was happening that the perspectives of a lot

839
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 9: of the people that I was working with in the

840
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 9: aid community were starting to shift on this whole thing.

841
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 9: People who didn't have a political interest in supporting the

842
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 9: Palestinians and were just kind of supporting Israel because of

843
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:34,360
Speaker 9: the default. When they actually went to Gaza, they started

844
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 9: to really change their tune.

845
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 5: And you see this.

846
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 9: A little bit with Jose Andres as well. I think

847
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 9: Jose Andres was, yeah, I mean this in terms of

848
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 9: his personal views on Israel, they seem to have very

849
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 9: clearly evolved. You can see very soon after October seventh,

850
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 9: he is calling out the Spanish Prime Minister on calling

851
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 9: what's happening in Palestine and genocide. He's saying Israel has

852
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:02,800
Speaker 9: the rights to defend itself, and then he spends a

853
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 9: bunch of time in Gaza, and now he's greeting everyone

854
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:10,840
Speaker 9: in Arabic, and then this thing happens, and he immediately

855
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 9: points the finger at ISRAELI says, you guys targeted my team,

856
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:16,439
Speaker 9: you killed them deliberately, and you made sure the job

857
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 9: was finished, and that is just so reproachable. And in

858
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 9: doing so, he became one of the only really big

859
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 9: celebrity voices to make what appeared to be something of

860
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 9: a one to eighty turn on that conflict. And pretty

861
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:35,800
Speaker 9: much everyone that I've worked with in the humanitarian or

862
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 9: journalism space has also done the same thing in regard

863
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 9: to Gaza. I'd say most people thought my views on

864
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 9: this were too extreme after October seventh, when I began

865
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 9: immediately criticizing Israel, and now the ones who have actually

866
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 9: been there pretty much on equivocally say they're the bad

867
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 9: actor in this region. And I think you saw that

868
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:58,320
Speaker 9: shift happen in real time with sort of the attitude

869
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:02,240
Speaker 9: that World Central Kitchen took to Gaza. All that stuff

870
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,439
Speaker 9: is available from public statements. I don't want to share

871
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:06,760
Speaker 9: private sentiments that have been shared with me by members

872
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 9: of World Central Kitchen staff. Those are their own and

873
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 9: they don't represent the organization. But I think even just

874
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 9: watching the yo yo of Jose Andres's perspective on this

875
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:17,240
Speaker 9: change has been enlightening.

876
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think, like it's easy to be critical

877
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:25,400
Speaker 5: of someone for having opinions which like have not aided well, right, Like,

878
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 5: and sometimes that's okay sometimes some since we need to

879
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 5: do that, sometimes people say shit which is unforgivable. But

880
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 5: like I think in this instance, like we can be

881
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:37,839
Speaker 5: critical at a point, but I don't think now it's

882
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 5: a time for that. Like I think now it's a

883
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 5: time for like everyone who wants the starving and killing

884
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 5: of innocent people in Gaza to stop is on our

885
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 5: side right now, and we need to welcome that. And

886
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 5: like there are a lot of people in this country

887
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,720
Speaker 5: right who we need to do that same one eighty

888
00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 5: and giving examples of people doing that is good, like

889
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 5: they and there are a lot of people who don't

890
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 5: see themselves when they see dead people in Gaza, and

891
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 5: that's a problem, right, And that's some shit that they

892
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 5: need to examine, and because there's a lot of bigotry there.

893
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:14,360
Speaker 5: But if they see themselves in those aid workers, or

894
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 5: they see themselves in Jose Andres, and look fucking when

895
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 5: I saw the bodies of those aid workers, right, you

896
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,960
Speaker 5: have a tall, skinny British guy with long hair in

897
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,319
Speaker 5: a plate carrier with a badge on like that, That's

898
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 5: what I look like to ninety nine percent of the world,

899
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:29,840
Speaker 5: and it's hard not to feel like, oh shit, like

900
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 5: that could be me, and and I have well, I

901
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 5: feel like I have a lot of empathy for people

902
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 5: in guys that are friends in guars that we speak

903
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 5: to them on the podcast sharing and I spoke to

904
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,720
Speaker 5: them last week. But whatever it takes for those people

905
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 5: to change their opinions right now is what we need,

906
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 5: and we can we can dissect how we got here later,

907
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 5: but like every minute that this continues, more innocent people die.

908
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 5: And if we can stop this one minute sooner than

909
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 5: there's an important life that we can save. And I

910
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 5: think it's really important to focus on where we are,

911
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 5: not like how how we got here right now, if

912
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 5: that makes sense.

913
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 8: As far as global conflicts go. I believe it's like

914
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 8: two hundred and twenty four AID workers have died in Gaza,

915
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,959
Speaker 8: which is not a normal number in any kind of war.

916
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 8: So that's according to the UN.

917
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, one hundred journalists, right like every there is one

918
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 5: person I can think of who has worked with in

919
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 5: Gaza who is still alive. Everyone I know has lost

920
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:33,360
Speaker 5: family members, and that that's just my tiny slice, you know,

921
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:37,240
Speaker 5: and by no means as affected by this as most people.

922
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 5: But yeah, that three times as many children have died

923
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:43,240
Speaker 5: since October in Gaza as are normally killed in conflicts

924
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 5: in a year worldwide. It's fucking horrific. And yeah, we

925
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 5: will do well to put aside our differences and make

926
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 5: it stop, I think.

927
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, I agree, opposition to genocide and wanting to end

928
00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 9: it should be a very big tent and the fact

929
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 9: that some people on the Internet are trying to make

930
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 9: it a smaller one doesn't make a lot of sense

931
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:03,719
Speaker 9: to me.

932
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 5: Yeah.

933
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:08,959
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, it promotes infighting, which is not helpful right now. Yeah,

934
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 8: it is helpful to not call it a war and

935
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:14,799
Speaker 8: continue calling a genocide because that's what it is. So yeah,

936
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:19,759
Speaker 8: just continuing to change all the rhetoric around this genocide

937
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 8: I think is important. This is also not the first

938
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 8: time that Israel has directly targeted aid workers that are

939
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 8: clearly labeled as aid workers. In two thousand and six

940
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 8: and Lebanon, Israel struck a red Cross ambulance right in

941
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 8: the center of the logo. Right on top of the

942
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 8: truck there was or the van was a red cross,

943
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:43,960
Speaker 8: a clear red cross, and it struck right in the center.

944
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 8: I think that image is now going around again from

945
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 8: two thousand and six.

946
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 10: Again.

947
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 8: It's not the first time that Israel has directly targeted

948
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 8: AID workers, and I think it's really appalling seeing leadership

949
00:55:56,680 --> 00:56:00,799
Speaker 8: in Israel just kind of apologize half hardly, being like

950
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 8: this was a mistake, and then they just move on.

951
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 8: It's if this was the red line for people. I one,

952
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:11,439
Speaker 8: I find that frustrating, But if it's finally the red

953
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 8: line for people, I just hope it continues and people

954
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 8: don't let it go.

955
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:17,719
Speaker 5: That story that was absolutely fucking heartbreaking, right of that

956
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 5: young girl who was trapped in her car and she

957
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 5: called the ambulance and the ambulance came and they bombed

958
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 5: the ambulance right and they killed her. And they called

959
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 5: the ambulance drivers like those two ambulance drivers were Palestinian.

960
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:29,839
Speaker 5: They were working for the Palestinian Red Crest and they

961
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 5: deserve every bit as much outrage as the words Central

962
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 5: Kitchen people do what they did with every bit as admirable,

963
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:39,880
Speaker 5: but like, if this is what it takes for people

964
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 5: to change, then like I hope that they will also

965
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:45,840
Speaker 5: acknowledge that everything else that happened before was an a

966
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 5: trustee too, talking of like a trustees, we have an

967
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:51,360
Speaker 5: advertising break now.

968
00:56:52,200 --> 00:57:05,759
Speaker 10: That was good James, good job, and we're back.

969
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:10,399
Speaker 8: Charles. You recently got some online attention for a video

970
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 8: that you posted that was highlighting the vast imbalance of

971
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:18,440
Speaker 8: attention that the targeted assassination of the AID workers got

972
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 8: in comparison to the murder and genocide of Palestinians. Specifically,

973
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 8: people were talking about how there was also a Palestinian

974
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 8: driver who was murdered along with the AID workers and

975
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 8: his name was not getting mentioned. His name is safe,

976
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 8: Isam Abudaha. And just a reminder of how frustrating it

977
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 8: is that this had to be the red line for people.

978
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,840
Speaker 8: There are over thirty three thousand people in Gaza who

979
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 8: have been murdered, nearly half of which are children. There

980
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:49,880
Speaker 8: are probably thousands more who are trapped under the rubble,

981
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 8: and other thousands that are just unaccounted for because of

982
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 8: the bobbing of hospitals and the lack of records. So

983
00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 8: to have the killing of six aid workers be a

984
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:04,040
Speaker 8: red line for people. That's what I mean by saying

985
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 8: it's frustrating because it is a tragedy, but tragedy has

986
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 8: been taking place for the past six months and also

987
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 8: the past seventy six years. So yes, the video that

988
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 8: Charles made gossa well deserved attention, and I'd love for

989
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 8: you to talk about it a little bit.

990
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 6: Yeah.

991
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 9: So this was like a strange convergence of things for

992
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 9: me because I had been keeping up with the WCK

993
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 9: team as they went into Gaza. I'd actually even been

994
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 9: in conversations with some of them about potentially going there,

995
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,200
Speaker 9: but I hadn't. I mean, like these were just buddies

996
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 9: from a humanitarian trip. I mean, you know, like James

997
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 9: probably knows, you make friends really fast when you're connected,

998
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:46,680
Speaker 9: when you're in these sorts of scenarios, and you know,

999
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 9: I had, I made friendships while I was in Turkey

1000
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 9: that I've maintained, and but then my my Palestinian advocacy

1001
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:57,320
Speaker 9: was separate. You know, I'm over here educating and everything.

1002
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:02,880
Speaker 9: And then suddenly there's this converse jints of like former

1003
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 9: co workers on this team dying and then it being

1004
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:10,600
Speaker 9: the fault of this regime that I've spent the last

1005
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 9: six months trying to educate people on why it's bad.

1006
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 9: And I posted a video which was my tribute to

1007
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 9: the fallen WCK employees, who were very close friends of

1008
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 9: people that I got really close to on that project,

1009
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 9: and it was a tribute to them and also a

1010
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 9: way of pointing out how their martyrdom has been has

1011
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 9: overshadowed the martyrdom of so many Palestinians who will never

1012
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 9: get the kind of press and attention that they did,

1013
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:51,280
Speaker 9: and I think it achieved that effect. The video went very,

1014
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:54,640
Speaker 9: very viral. It's exceeded a million views on TikTok, it's

1015
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 9: around a quarter a million on Instagram, and more than

1016
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 9: that on the accounts that have reposted and shared it,

1017
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:03,439
Speaker 9: sometimes without the context that I am not a World

1018
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 9: Central Kitchen employee, nor do I represent the opinions of

1019
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 9: the organization. And one of the things that I think

1020
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 9: made that story go viral is that I did shift

1021
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:15,800
Speaker 9: the attention to I said, this is a genocide, and

1022
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:19,640
Speaker 9: I said, as grieved as I am at the loss

1023
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 9: of these people that I have this connection with, I

1024
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 9: do want to point out that it is overshadowing the

1025
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:28,280
Speaker 9: horrendous loss of life of Palestinians, and I think that

1026
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 9: resonated with a lot of people. It also resonated with

1027
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 9: my former my friends at w CK, who reached out

1028
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 9: to say, we appreciate you using your platform to talk

1029
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 9: about this, especially considering the fact that w CK employees

1030
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 9: do not typically are not really supposed to be making

1031
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:50,240
Speaker 9: statements online about this, so they have a little more

1032
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 9: leeway with that. Concerning the fact that the head of

1033
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 9: the organization has explicitly now condemned Israel for this strike,

1034
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 9: but I've had some very interesting conversations with friends of

1035
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:04,640
Speaker 9: mine that either still work or connected to the organization.

1036
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:09,160
Speaker 9: And that's a slightly complicated thing because World Central Kitchen

1037
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 9: subcontracts with so many different people, So at any given point,

1038
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:14,040
Speaker 9: there are people who are connected to World Central Kitchen

1039
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:17,360
Speaker 9: who are not representatives of the organization or technically employees.

1040
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:20,240
Speaker 9: So you know, you can't say definitively this is what

1041
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 9: the majority of people in WCK feel about Gaza or

1042
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 9: Israel or anything. You know, different people have different opinions

1043
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 9: about that whole situation.

1044
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 5: I think what you tried to do was obviously not

1045
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:35,200
Speaker 5: to represent them, and it would be disingenuous any want

1046
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:37,800
Speaker 5: to suggest you did, but the internet does that. I

1047
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:41,160
Speaker 5: want to talk about one more, talking of disindienuous things

1048
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 5: on the Internet, I guess there was this thing that

1049
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:47,360
Speaker 5: went around immediately in the aftermath of the photos coming

1050
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:52,960
Speaker 5: out of the different people's corpses that like it seemed

1051
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 5: to be mostly like tankies or perhaps people who still

1052
01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:58,120
Speaker 5: believe that they can generate revenue from views on Twitter,

1053
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 5: saying that like, because these people had a security team,

1054
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 5: the security team was somehow spies and the evidence they're

1055
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 5: working phase are right, and you can speak to your

1056
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 5: experienced childis like, I've worked with security teams and seen

1057
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:14,280
Speaker 5: people working with security teams all over the fucking world

1058
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 5: because war is dangerous and you have the thing that

1059
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:18,000
Speaker 5: everyone needs.

1060
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:20,440
Speaker 9: If you have the misfortune of being a veteran of

1061
01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:23,440
Speaker 9: the global War on Terror, you have a very few

1062
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:28,680
Speaker 9: outlets for your skill set. One of those is providing

1063
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 9: security for humanitarian actors and journalists, and that is one

1064
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:37,760
Speaker 9: of the most pro social applications of your skill set.

1065
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:42,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, those things to do with those skills, believe me, right.

1066
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:47,600
Speaker 9: So I have encountered a lot of people in my

1067
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 9: time in Ukraine and elsewhere who have decided to turn

1068
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:59,240
Speaker 9: their sort of military intelligence background experience into you know, well, okay,

1069
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 9: I'm good at this. I'm familiar with these types of scenarios.

1070
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:04,720
Speaker 9: And if there's one thing I'm decent at, it's well,

1071
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 9: at least trying to keep people safe and give them intelligence.

1072
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:12,560
Speaker 9: And that is a that's never a guarantee. But in

1073
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 9: all the people I've met who actually are legit, you know,

1074
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 9: security consultants or or just veterans who have applied their

1075
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:24,000
Speaker 9: skills towards a pro social humanitarian purpose are pretty good guys.

1076
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:27,920
Speaker 9: And while I'm sure you know there are some of

1077
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:34,720
Speaker 9: them who are connected to various you are still connected

1078
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 9: to sort of the intelligence services of their various countries.

1079
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 9: I think that's definitely a possibility. A lot of them

1080
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:42,800
Speaker 9: are not. They're just veterans who are trying to help

1081
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:44,800
Speaker 9: and they this is a way that they can make

1082
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 9: a living and while doing something that has a low

1083
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:48,520
Speaker 9: moral hazard.

1084
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:49,800
Speaker 4: So yeah, I.

1085
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 9: Dismissed that stuff. There's a lot of conspiracies. The problem is,

1086
01:03:54,160 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 9: I mean, in the vacuum of the sort of post

1087
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 9: manufacturing consent world where none of us truyus the Western

1088
01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:04,440
Speaker 9: liberal media. A lot of people trust stuff that's even dumber,

1089
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:08,959
Speaker 9: including just like takes on the Internet that somebody pulled

1090
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:11,560
Speaker 9: out of their ass. And a lot of it is

1091
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:15,400
Speaker 9: if you have set yourself up against everything that comes

1092
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:17,960
Speaker 9: out of the West, then every everything that looks like

1093
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:21,919
Speaker 9: a fingerprint of an intelligence agency or anything is going

1094
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:24,760
Speaker 9: to ring your alarm bells, obviously, you know, James. I

1095
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:27,480
Speaker 9: feel like Ukraine is a great example of this. The

1096
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:30,040
Speaker 9: fact that the United States supports Ukraine means that Ukraine

1097
01:04:30,120 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 9: must be the villain, and that the entire thing must

1098
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:35,320
Speaker 9: be a CIA SIOP and their spies everywhere. And I'm

1099
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:37,520
Speaker 9: a spy for going to Ukraine and helping grandmothers get

1100
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:41,160
Speaker 9: their insulin. All of those things have been said about Ukraine,

1101
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:44,640
Speaker 9: about me, about you know that sort of thing, and

1102
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 9: we know it, we know it's not true.

1103
01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 5: It's just that people.

1104
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 9: I mean, these, as far as I know, these were

1105
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 9: guys who were security consultants, very similar to I work

1106
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:56,840
Speaker 9: with a lot of British veterans of the Global War

1107
01:04:56,840 --> 01:05:00,560
Speaker 9: on tear, basically on various different projects, of it having

1108
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 9: to do with PTSD, others having to do with environmental conservation.

1109
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:08,040
Speaker 9: Some of whom have worked in Palestine and been in

1110
01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:12,160
Speaker 9: the West Bank. And I think Brits by and large

1111
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:15,920
Speaker 9: have a more sane perspective on Palestine than people in

1112
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:18,000
Speaker 9: the US too. I've just noticed that they are like

1113
01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:21,280
Speaker 9: fewer ultra Zionist Brits than Americans.

1114
01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:24,280
Speaker 5: I think our politics is less dominated by that perspective.

1115
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:27,520
Speaker 5: There are ultra zion As British people, but yeah, it's

1116
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:31,800
Speaker 5: also just I think a little bit harder to live

1117
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:34,920
Speaker 5: a life in Britain where you don't know, it's not

1118
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:39,640
Speaker 5: Palestinian people, Arab people and and Muslim people, right, and

1119
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 5: that complete demonization and dehumanization of Muslim people that the

1120
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:47,200
Speaker 5: Western media did for twenty years to manufacture consent for

1121
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:50,600
Speaker 5: war that wasn't about weapons of master attraction or women

1122
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:54,040
Speaker 5: in Afghanistan. It doesn't stick the landing quite so well

1123
01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:57,120
Speaker 5: when like, you have friends and you can kind of

1124
01:05:57,120 --> 01:05:58,840
Speaker 5: see through the nonsense. Yeah.

1125
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:01,440
Speaker 8: Well, also I think the percent of like evangelical Christians

1126
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 8: was probably much less.

1127
01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:03,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1128
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 5: No one's bringing a fucking red cow in England to

1129
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:09,280
Speaker 5: take it to this third temple that I know of.

1130
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:11,800
Speaker 9: That was one of the things I was going to

1131
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:13,720
Speaker 9: point out is I don't think you even have to know,

1132
01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:15,960
Speaker 9: like to be a Zionist, you don't even have to

1133
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:17,960
Speaker 9: know Jewish people in the US. I was raised an

1134
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:21,840
Speaker 9: ultra Zionist without knowing a single Jewish family because I

1135
01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:24,560
Speaker 9: came from an evangelical community in South Carolina that was

1136
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 9: very Christo nationalist, very kind of culturally dispensationalist. Even though

1137
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:32,800
Speaker 9: my family wasn't dispensationalist. It was all about in times,

1138
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:35,640
Speaker 9: you support Israel because that's where you know, that's where

1139
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:38,280
Speaker 9: Jesus is going to come back. So yeah, I remember,

1140
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 9: I mean I I we even had like fake Passover

1141
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:44,600
Speaker 9: ceremonies in our church. God, this is bringing up some interesting.

1142
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:48,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, into the trima bugs.

1143
01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:51,760
Speaker 9: But truly, I mean one of my one of my

1144
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:55,800
Speaker 9: early sort of I would say I was I was

1145
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:59,280
Speaker 9: completely anti Zionist before I was even a leftist. And

1146
01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:01,280
Speaker 9: part of that reason was because I got to know

1147
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:05,000
Speaker 9: a Palestinian friend in Washington, d C. While sharing a

1148
01:07:05,040 --> 01:07:09,480
Speaker 9: desk with an Israeli conservative and a liberal Zionist.

1149
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:13,640
Speaker 8: Wow that is and yeah, joke like these people walk

1150
01:07:13,640 --> 01:07:16,360
Speaker 8: into a bar, Yeah, trio of.

1151
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:19,720
Speaker 9: People, So I like I think I had kind of

1152
01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:22,600
Speaker 9: I got pilled on Palestine. Part of it was because

1153
01:07:22,640 --> 01:07:25,800
Speaker 9: like I was history major in college, so I learned historiography.

1154
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:29,400
Speaker 9: I just never applied historiography to the Israel Palestine conflict.

1155
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 9: And then having these two voices in my ear while

1156
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:34,440
Speaker 9: like living and working in DC, I was like, oh,

1157
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:37,040
Speaker 9: I need to actually look into this, and so yeah,

1158
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:38,360
Speaker 9: I mean I would say even before I was like

1159
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:42,600
Speaker 9: a leftist, I was down on Israel. I figured they

1160
01:07:42,600 --> 01:07:45,480
Speaker 9: were not the good guys. And then I think reading

1161
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:50,320
Speaker 9: The Fateful Triangle by nome Chrompsky really solidified that. And uh,

1162
01:07:50,480 --> 01:07:53,200
Speaker 9: obviously Ilan Pope kind of was the nail on the

1163
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:56,480
Speaker 9: coffin for me. So yeah, and speaking of like you

1164
01:07:56,520 --> 01:08:01,040
Speaker 9: know what happens in DC, and you know, America's opinions

1165
01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:06,120
Speaker 9: on the Middle East, most of them are dogshit opinions

1166
01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:09,080
Speaker 9: because most people do not have some sort of strong

1167
01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:12,240
Speaker 9: point of reference to this zone. But it goes back

1168
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:15,720
Speaker 9: to what we were saying about how being against genocides

1169
01:08:15,720 --> 01:08:18,040
Speaker 9: should be a very big tent and we should resist

1170
01:08:18,040 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 9: efforts to make it smaller. Because I'm reading through the

1171
01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:24,920
Speaker 9: Hundred Years War in Palestine right now Rashid Khaldi, and

1172
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:29,000
Speaker 9: one of the things that he said is how the

1173
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:33,759
Speaker 9: war is fought in the United States in Congress because

1174
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:37,559
Speaker 9: we hold the keys. So as much as it's as

1175
01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:40,639
Speaker 9: painful as it is to try and change the minds

1176
01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:46,480
Speaker 9: of dumb Americans with no geopolitical understanding, it's absolutely essential

1177
01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:52,320
Speaker 9: to holding Israel to account. It is actually one of

1178
01:08:52,360 --> 01:08:56,040
Speaker 9: the best things that you can do. And when someone

1179
01:08:56,080 --> 01:09:01,200
Speaker 9: who has the international appeal of Chef jose Andres points

1180
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:03,800
Speaker 9: the finger at Israel and said, you killed my employees

1181
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:08,559
Speaker 9: deliberately and you're starving Gazans, that goes a long way

1182
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:13,439
Speaker 9: towards shifting the opinions of the people who actually hold

1183
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:15,080
Speaker 9: the keys to everything Israel does.

1184
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:17,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's a very good point, and like

1185
01:09:19,280 --> 01:09:21,080
Speaker 5: that's what we need to do, right And I like

1186
01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:24,320
Speaker 5: to stop them getting bombs to kill people, not argue

1187
01:09:24,320 --> 01:09:27,479
Speaker 5: you on Twitter or you know, Instagram or what have you. Like,

1188
01:09:27,520 --> 01:09:33,800
Speaker 5: we need to make the killing stop. I wonder, like

1189
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:37,920
Speaker 5: you spoke at Childs but knowing people I know, Central

1190
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 5: Kitchen are no longer working in Gaza for the time being.

1191
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:45,000
Speaker 5: From when is that still correct?

1192
01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:49,080
Speaker 9: They they've publicly announced that they're scaling back their efforts. Yes,

1193
01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:51,840
Speaker 9: I'm not sure if they're going to totally close down

1194
01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:55,000
Speaker 9: their operation. I think right now they're probably trying to

1195
01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:59,840
Speaker 9: reconsider their security protocols before making another step.

1196
01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:04,479
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I don't really know what as there

1197
01:10:04,479 --> 01:10:07,439
Speaker 5: are things, of course, but like they did attempt to

1198
01:10:07,479 --> 01:10:10,280
Speaker 5: deconflict I guess, and they were using a road which

1199
01:10:10,320 --> 01:10:13,760
Speaker 5: is designated for the use that they were using it for, and.

1200
01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:17,160
Speaker 8: Israel knew where they were, Like it's they have to

1201
01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:20,160
Speaker 8: report where they are. So, I mean, it would be

1202
01:10:20,200 --> 01:10:24,680
Speaker 8: fucking crazy if Israel attacked Abergers again right now, but

1203
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:28,880
Speaker 8: also it's Israel. I mean, I've done crazier things.

1204
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:31,519
Speaker 9: Yeah, but can we like dwell on that for a second.

1205
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:35,920
Speaker 9: Like Israel constantly boasts about its ISR capabilities mm HM

1206
01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:40,040
Speaker 9: in ISR's intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance. So like Israel is

1207
01:10:40,040 --> 01:10:43,519
Speaker 9: constantly reassuring people that it is doing everything it can

1208
01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:46,680
Speaker 9: to avoid civilian casualties, it talks about its chain of

1209
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:50,800
Speaker 9: command for approval. And in light of that, none of

1210
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:53,760
Speaker 9: the things that they've said about this make any sense whatsoever,

1211
01:10:54,840 --> 01:10:58,280
Speaker 9: because if if they're protocols, because they're either, it's like

1212
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:03,000
Speaker 9: they can't decide what they're trying to gaslight the world

1213
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:08,160
Speaker 9: into believing every claim that they're making is muddling what

1214
01:11:08,240 --> 01:11:10,200
Speaker 9: they're trying to get the world to believe about them,

1215
01:11:10,360 --> 01:11:15,719
Speaker 9: and it just gives everyone the distinct impression that they're recklessly, incompetent, lying, evil,

1216
01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:16,840
Speaker 9: or potentially all three.

1217
01:11:18,080 --> 01:11:21,240
Speaker 5: Right, even if you look, I was because I don't

1218
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:22,920
Speaker 5: know why this is the thing that I do. I

1219
01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:24,679
Speaker 5: was looking at like trying to work out what munition

1220
01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:29,559
Speaker 5: Israel hood used, right to destroy those vehicles, And Israel

1221
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:32,599
Speaker 5: has they have a number of different sort of musus

1222
01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:35,120
Speaker 5: that they could have used. But one of the things

1223
01:11:35,120 --> 01:11:37,280
Speaker 5: that they do in the US does it too, but

1224
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:40,160
Speaker 5: it's a bigger thing with Israel is if they have

1225
01:11:40,320 --> 01:11:43,240
Speaker 5: inert or low yield health fire ammunitions sort of guided

1226
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:46,080
Speaker 5: munitions at a five from a helicopter or drone, and

1227
01:11:46,160 --> 01:11:48,040
Speaker 5: they use them to do a thing that they call

1228
01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:51,719
Speaker 5: roof knocking, right, which sounds maybe like you're like knocking

1229
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:54,080
Speaker 5: on someone's ref What you're doing is sending a missile

1230
01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:57,760
Speaker 5: through somebody's roof, and that is the means by which

1231
01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:00,519
Speaker 5: you alert them to evacuate the building because you planning

1232
01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:03,439
Speaker 5: a larger strike that in itself. Yeah, we have this

1233
01:12:03,479 --> 01:12:08,559
Speaker 5: great ISR capability and what do we do? We launch

1234
01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:11,559
Speaker 5: missiles into the homes of civilians and then hopefully they

1235
01:12:11,600 --> 01:12:13,720
Speaker 5: will run away and fear for their lives so that

1236
01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:16,000
Speaker 5: more of them don't die when we blow up that

1237
01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:20,400
Speaker 5: block ten minutes later. Like, it's just you know, you

1238
01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:22,679
Speaker 5: have to look at what's happening, not what's being said.

1239
01:12:23,080 --> 01:12:24,240
Speaker 5: I guess, but.

1240
01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:26,920
Speaker 9: No, there they're absolutely allergic to accountability. And I think

1241
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:28,720
Speaker 9: you can see just how far they've been able. They're

1242
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:30,559
Speaker 9: scrambling now because they've been able to get away with

1243
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:33,800
Speaker 9: so much for so long, and their excuses are falling

1244
01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:37,360
Speaker 9: apart because they're alternatively depicting themselves as a highly disciplined

1245
01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:42,519
Speaker 9: and professional, you know, army, or that they're just making

1246
01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:45,519
Speaker 9: mistakes because it's war and that people should get off

1247
01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:47,680
Speaker 9: their back because no one holds anyone else at the

1248
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:49,160
Speaker 9: same standard that they hold Israel.

1249
01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:49,439
Speaker 8: It.

1250
01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:51,280
Speaker 9: So I was like, which is it? Like, what are

1251
01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:53,000
Speaker 9: you trying to get the world to believe? Are you

1252
01:12:53,080 --> 01:12:55,960
Speaker 9: either this like crack discipline unit with a very sophisticated

1253
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:58,880
Speaker 9: chain of command in an AI software that you're really

1254
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:01,559
Speaker 9: proud of for targeting, or are you is this the

1255
01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:03,719
Speaker 9: fog of war and you're just making mistakes and everyone

1256
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:05,360
Speaker 9: makes mistakes and we should get off your back for

1257
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:06,360
Speaker 9: it because you can't.

1258
01:13:06,160 --> 01:13:06,840
Speaker 5: Have it both ways.

1259
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:07,600
Speaker 10: Yeah.

1260
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:10,000
Speaker 9: Yeah, the civilian casualties are too high for you to

1261
01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:14,920
Speaker 9: have it both ways. So either you are making mistakes

1262
01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:18,000
Speaker 9: and too many people are getting killed and you're violating

1263
01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:20,080
Speaker 9: the laws of rule, or you're doing it deliberately, which

1264
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:20,519
Speaker 9: is worse.

1265
01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:24,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, people can make up their in minds.

1266
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:25,479
Speaker 6: I guess Charles.

1267
01:13:25,479 --> 01:13:27,639
Speaker 8: Thank you so much for joining us today. I really

1268
01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:30,360
Speaker 8: respect all the work you do and I am grateful

1269
01:13:30,400 --> 01:13:33,120
Speaker 8: that you have shared your voice with our audience once again.

1270
01:13:33,479 --> 01:13:35,920
Speaker 8: Where can people find you on the internet if you

1271
01:13:36,080 --> 01:13:38,519
Speaker 8: want to be found, thank.

1272
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:38,800
Speaker 5: You, Shran.

1273
01:13:39,080 --> 01:13:42,320
Speaker 9: Yeah, you can find me pretty much everywhere except Twitter

1274
01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:46,320
Speaker 9: with Charles McBride and that's McBride with a why rather

1275
01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:52,080
Speaker 9: than an I. That's on substack, Instagram, TikTok, and my

1276
01:13:52,160 --> 01:13:55,240
Speaker 9: website Charles McBride dot com will be live at this

1277
01:13:55,320 --> 01:13:59,160
Speaker 9: point nice when this episode drops. So if you want

1278
01:13:59,200 --> 01:14:02,360
Speaker 9: to support the humanitarian work I've been involved in in Ukraine,

1279
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:06,519
Speaker 9: you can support Mission Harkive on Instagram. It's mission dot

1280
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:12,760
Speaker 9: harkive and their website is missionharkive dot com. And if

1281
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:15,439
Speaker 9: you're looking for an org that is already working in

1282
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:19,040
Speaker 9: Gaza to provide life saving aid in the wake of

1283
01:14:19,240 --> 01:14:22,280
Speaker 9: you know, unrubbing gone. World Central Kitchen now pulling out

1284
01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:26,040
Speaker 9: an era pulling out. Global Empowerment Mission is still there

1285
01:14:26,600 --> 01:14:29,679
Speaker 9: and still fulfilling a lot of the same functions that

1286
01:14:30,160 --> 01:14:31,479
Speaker 9: those organizations were doing.

1287
01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:34,320
Speaker 10: Thank you so much, Charles.

1288
01:14:45,040 --> 01:14:47,559
Speaker 8: Scheren and James from the future here giving you an

1289
01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:49,479
Speaker 8: update about the article that we mentioned at the top

1290
01:14:49,520 --> 01:14:53,080
Speaker 8: of the episode. So the title itself is I resign

1291
01:14:53,200 --> 01:14:55,720
Speaker 8: from World Central Kitchen because they refuse to tell the

1292
01:14:55,720 --> 01:14:58,959
Speaker 8: truth about the Israeli genocide and Gaza. The ex staffer

1293
01:14:59,040 --> 01:15:03,000
Speaker 8: is Ramsey t. The article itself has some really damning

1294
01:15:03,040 --> 01:15:05,840
Speaker 8: information about WCK, so we're going to get into it.

1295
01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:10,879
Speaker 8: He says, for months, World Central Kitchen leadership censored material

1296
01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:13,840
Speaker 8: coming out of its Gaza operation and refused to honor

1297
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:17,679
Speaker 8: staff concerns about their work there. And even though they're

1298
01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:20,360
Speaker 8: finally taking a stand after its personnel have been murdered,

1299
01:15:20,479 --> 01:15:23,400
Speaker 8: it is much too late. So he resigned in early

1300
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:25,640
Speaker 8: March of this year, and at the time he was

1301
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:29,519
Speaker 8: the only staff member of Palestinian descent at WCK. And

1302
01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:32,240
Speaker 8: there is an amendment. There, he says that while WCK

1303
01:15:32,400 --> 01:15:35,920
Speaker 8: hired many Palestinian contractors in Gaza in Egypt, he was

1304
01:15:35,960 --> 01:15:39,840
Speaker 8: the only Palestinian with staff status following the departure of

1305
01:15:39,920 --> 01:15:43,560
Speaker 8: one other longtime employee, and he resigned in protest of

1306
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:48,000
Speaker 8: the extensive unexplained censorship regarding Gaza At the organization. They

1307
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:50,720
Speaker 8: talk about how in December seventh of last year, they

1308
01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:53,960
Speaker 8: sent a letter to wck's executive team, and that letter

1309
01:15:54,040 --> 01:15:57,800
Speaker 8: called for WCK to join other regionally active NGOs in

1310
01:15:57,840 --> 01:16:01,479
Speaker 8: calling for a ceasefire and condemning his reels blockade, as

1311
01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:03,920
Speaker 8: well as conforming its language and coverage of Gaza to

1312
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:06,160
Speaker 8: the standard that was stepped by the coverage of Ukraine,

1313
01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:10,519
Speaker 8: as well as stopping meal service in Israel. It got

1314
01:16:10,520 --> 01:16:14,680
Speaker 8: fourty three signatures, and the WCK executive team declined to

1315
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:16,960
Speaker 8: meet up with the people that signed the letter, and

1316
01:16:17,040 --> 01:16:20,639
Speaker 8: they failed to respond to any inquiries, and they also

1317
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:23,880
Speaker 8: actively still served the meals in Israel while the second

1318
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:27,320
Speaker 8: day of the ICJ Genocide hearing was happening in January.

1319
01:16:27,880 --> 01:16:30,000
Speaker 5: There's one paragraph that I want to diale as well,

1320
01:16:30,320 --> 01:16:34,120
Speaker 5: just because I think it's very crucial when we're discussing

1321
01:16:34,360 --> 01:16:38,160
Speaker 5: the fact that these people died working for a Ceter kitchen.

1322
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:42,000
Speaker 5: And that's this paragraph that I would pick up halfway through.

1323
01:16:42,360 --> 01:16:46,120
Speaker 5: In another instance, a video of a WCK kitchen caught

1324
01:16:46,160 --> 01:16:49,320
Speaker 5: in an IDF bombing was put on hold entirely. It

1325
01:16:49,360 --> 01:16:52,040
Speaker 5: appears this incident, as well as the fact that WCK

1326
01:16:52,160 --> 01:16:55,200
Speaker 5: personnel were board a UN convoy that was bombed, have

1327
01:16:55,360 --> 01:16:59,680
Speaker 5: not been mentioned anywhere externally. Like, I think that's a

1328
01:16:59,760 --> 01:17:04,000
Speaker 5: real crucial getting off point. You can have shit politics,

1329
01:17:04,439 --> 01:17:07,200
Speaker 5: but if you're not saying stuff when your people are

1330
01:17:07,200 --> 01:17:11,599
Speaker 5: getting bombed, like until they're getting killed, A, I don't

1331
01:17:11,600 --> 01:17:15,320
Speaker 5: know what's wrong with you, and B if you didn't

1332
01:17:15,400 --> 01:17:17,880
Speaker 5: change things that, I don't know they didn't change things, right,

1333
01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:20,840
Speaker 5: that's not detailed here, but like you have to change

1334
01:17:20,880 --> 01:17:22,920
Speaker 5: things if your people are being bombed, Like if I'm

1335
01:17:23,840 --> 01:17:26,599
Speaker 5: working somewhere where that's a likelihood, you know, like if

1336
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:28,760
Speaker 5: if we get bombed once and we're lucky enough to

1337
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:31,719
Speaker 5: be okay, we do not continue doing the same shit.

1338
01:17:31,840 --> 01:17:34,679
Speaker 5: And I'm not entirely sure that they did. I don't

1339
01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:37,160
Speaker 5: want to for a moment suggest that like the people

1340
01:17:37,160 --> 01:17:40,840
Speaker 5: who died were in like complicit right, that's not what

1341
01:17:40,880 --> 01:17:44,080
Speaker 5: I'm saying. It's not what you're in saying. I very

1342
01:17:44,200 --> 01:17:47,439
Speaker 5: much understand the desire to go to places where dangerous

1343
01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:49,840
Speaker 5: things are happening and help the people who did nothing

1344
01:17:49,880 --> 01:17:51,880
Speaker 5: to deserve this, and I think the people who did

1345
01:17:51,880 --> 01:17:55,920
Speaker 5: that deserve are an ending gratitude and respect. I'm not

1346
01:17:56,400 --> 01:17:59,639
Speaker 5: for a minute saying that that's not true. I'm saying

1347
01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:03,479
Speaker 5: that this organization needs to really think about how it

1348
01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:06,400
Speaker 5: does shit if it wants to continue operating.

1349
01:18:07,200 --> 01:18:10,560
Speaker 8: And yeah, the blame is on the executives of this organization.

1350
01:18:11,400 --> 01:18:14,920
Speaker 8: The article also talks about how the character of w

1351
01:18:15,120 --> 01:18:19,759
Speaker 8: CK's relief response to Gaza. It was revealed very early

1352
01:18:19,840 --> 01:18:24,800
Speaker 8: on after October seventh the chief communications officer, Linda Roth.

1353
01:18:25,160 --> 01:18:27,920
Speaker 8: She had put out a statement without the communications team's input,

1354
01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:31,120
Speaker 8: which is apparently breaking precedent, and it was about how

1355
01:18:31,800 --> 01:18:34,720
Speaker 8: Hamas attacked Israel with no mention of the Palestinian lives

1356
01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:37,679
Speaker 8: that were lost. And then three days later, Jose Andres

1357
01:18:37,720 --> 01:18:41,080
Speaker 8: posted a video to w CK's Instagram where he only

1358
01:18:41,080 --> 01:18:43,719
Speaker 8: makes reference to the October seventh attack, with no mention

1359
01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:46,439
Speaker 8: of the climbing Palestine death till at the time or

1360
01:18:46,560 --> 01:18:51,479
Speaker 8: the blockades and then on social media, Charles mentioned this

1361
01:18:51,560 --> 01:18:55,160
Speaker 8: of the episode. On October sixteenth, he tweeted at the

1362
01:18:55,200 --> 01:18:57,800
Speaker 8: Spanish Prime Minister to be removed for her protest of

1363
01:18:57,840 --> 01:19:01,160
Speaker 8: the Israeli tactics, and at the same time, WCK continued

1364
01:19:01,200 --> 01:19:03,360
Speaker 8: to work closely with the IDF over the course of

1365
01:19:03,400 --> 01:19:07,880
Speaker 8: the relief response. The initial statement as well as Andre's video,

1366
01:19:08,200 --> 01:19:11,000
Speaker 8: were decisions that were made by leadership against the concerns

1367
01:19:11,040 --> 01:19:14,720
Speaker 8: of a WCK personnel. There's this paragraph that I want

1368
01:19:14,760 --> 01:19:17,400
Speaker 8: to read just verbatim. Much of the work in a

1369
01:19:17,439 --> 01:19:20,840
Speaker 8: genocide is not pulling the trigger, but instead minimizing and

1370
01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:24,120
Speaker 8: denying that a genocide is going on. Genocide is a

1371
01:19:24,120 --> 01:19:28,559
Speaker 8: phenomenon of gradual boundary pushing. Each increment must be accepted

1372
01:19:28,560 --> 01:19:31,400
Speaker 8: by the parties with agency for the next to be reached.

1373
01:19:31,840 --> 01:19:34,920
Speaker 8: Under the direction of CEO Aaron Gore, Linda Roth, and

1374
01:19:35,160 --> 01:19:40,120
Speaker 8: quote Chief Feeding Officer Jose Andres, World Central Kitchen recklessly

1375
01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:44,320
Speaker 8: endangered its personnel, selflessly exploited the situation for its own benefit,

1376
01:19:44,439 --> 01:19:48,400
Speaker 8: and actively participated in the normalization of an ongoing genocide.

1377
01:19:49,040 --> 01:19:51,759
Speaker 5: I think what I want to say more broadly here

1378
01:19:52,040 --> 01:19:54,880
Speaker 5: it's my stunts. I guess maybe other people sharre it, man,

1379
01:19:54,920 --> 01:19:57,719
Speaker 5: they don't. This situation is not going to be solved

1380
01:19:57,840 --> 01:20:00,719
Speaker 5: by NGOs, and it certainly not going to be solved

1381
01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:05,479
Speaker 5: by NGOs which have this very explicitly neoliberal political agenda. Right, Like,

1382
01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:09,719
Speaker 5: at best they can plug a hole in a leaky bucket,

1383
01:20:09,840 --> 01:20:11,880
Speaker 5: and it's good when they do that. Right, if one

1384
01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:15,200
Speaker 5: less person starves, that's good. It doesn't mean they don't

1385
01:20:15,200 --> 01:20:18,880
Speaker 5: have to be perfect to help, but they don't get

1386
01:20:18,920 --> 01:20:22,160
Speaker 5: to be exemptive from criticism because they're helping, right, Like

1387
01:20:22,240 --> 01:20:23,960
Speaker 5: World's Central Kitchen didn't want to help us at the

1388
01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:26,599
Speaker 5: border in Hucumber. My friends reached out. They didn't want

1389
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:28,679
Speaker 5: to do that. Yeah, I don't think you should expect

1390
01:20:29,479 --> 01:20:32,519
Speaker 5: endios to share your your radical politics. It doesn't mean

1391
01:20:32,520 --> 01:20:34,080
Speaker 5: that they can't do harm reduction, and it doesn't mean

1392
01:20:34,120 --> 01:20:37,000
Speaker 5: that when they are doing harm reduction, they sometimes need

1393
01:20:37,040 --> 01:20:40,000
Speaker 5: your money, and in the such situations where this is happening,

1394
01:20:40,200 --> 01:20:41,760
Speaker 5: you should give it to them if you can't help

1395
01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:46,160
Speaker 5: more directly. Right, But like you know, if we look

1396
01:20:46,200 --> 01:20:49,200
Speaker 5: at their communications, we do see them calling for a

1397
01:20:49,240 --> 01:20:52,320
Speaker 5: cease fire, which is about what you can expect from

1398
01:20:52,320 --> 01:20:55,000
Speaker 5: an NGO, you know, we actually it appears that we

1399
01:20:55,040 --> 01:20:57,920
Speaker 5: see Hosse Andrews calling for a ceasefire, and we see

1400
01:20:57,920 --> 01:21:00,799
Speaker 5: World Central Kitchen saying Jsse andrew is for a ceasefire,

1401
01:21:01,520 --> 01:21:03,120
Speaker 5: which I don't quite know why they don't just say

1402
01:21:03,120 --> 01:21:04,800
Speaker 5: we are calling for a ceasefire. They didn't sign that

1403
01:21:04,840 --> 01:21:06,400
Speaker 5: document with the other rango. It's like that. I don't

1404
01:21:06,400 --> 01:21:09,040
Speaker 5: know if they're trying to play like have it both ways.

1405
01:21:09,080 --> 01:21:12,880
Speaker 5: I don't know. I don't I'm not privy to those conversations. Right,

1406
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:15,520
Speaker 5: they didn't sort of wholeheartedly say this is the genocide

1407
01:21:16,120 --> 01:21:18,320
Speaker 5: but they have to get permission for Israel to do stuff.

1408
01:21:19,000 --> 01:21:22,080
Speaker 5: I mean, now they're saying it, but after the Trustee

1409
01:21:22,120 --> 01:21:24,760
Speaker 5: that happened, the whole world is watching, right, Not that

1410
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:26,719
Speaker 5: the whole world shouldn't have been watching from the start,

1411
01:21:27,680 --> 01:21:31,519
Speaker 5: but I don't think enos are ever going to be

1412
01:21:31,640 --> 01:21:33,360
Speaker 5: you know, it's radical that there's people on the internet

1413
01:21:33,439 --> 01:21:35,320
Speaker 5: want them for They're also they're doing stuff and people

1414
01:21:35,360 --> 01:21:38,240
Speaker 5: on the internet aren't, so you know, we have to

1415
01:21:38,240 --> 01:21:41,000
Speaker 5: respect that. And I don't want any of this to

1416
01:21:42,080 --> 01:21:47,599
Speaker 5: take away from the fact that some people from all

1417
01:21:47,600 --> 01:21:51,160
Speaker 5: over the world, right from Europe, from Australia, from the

1418
01:21:51,280 --> 01:21:56,599
Speaker 5: United States, have died feeding people who need to be fed,

1419
01:21:56,640 --> 01:22:01,280
Speaker 5: because that's the most any of us can give, is

1420
01:22:01,360 --> 01:22:04,719
Speaker 5: our lives, right, And so I don't for a minute

1421
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:08,559
Speaker 5: want any of this to detract from the sacrifice they made.

1422
01:22:09,360 --> 01:22:12,479
Speaker 5: No should their sacrifice be held in any higher regard

1423
01:22:12,520 --> 01:22:14,880
Speaker 5: than the sacrifice made by hundreds, if not thousands of

1424
01:22:14,880 --> 01:22:18,040
Speaker 5: Palestinian aid workers, right, people working for the Palestinian re Crescent,

1425
01:22:19,040 --> 01:22:24,080
Speaker 5: a Palestinian even the Palestinian people working for International NGOs right,

1426
01:22:24,200 --> 01:22:27,439
Speaker 5: or the United Nations people who have been killed, right,

1427
01:22:28,920 --> 01:22:31,800
Speaker 5: None of the sacrifices it should be ignored or ound

1428
01:22:31,880 --> 01:22:34,000
Speaker 5: mind because if people are certainly given a lot more

1429
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:36,559
Speaker 5: than I have, I don't have any right to say that.

1430
01:22:37,479 --> 01:22:41,080
Speaker 5: I think, yeah, this organ it changes communications, right. I

1431
01:22:41,080 --> 01:22:44,120
Speaker 5: think they've obviously realized that there is no nicely nicely

1432
01:22:44,240 --> 01:22:46,680
Speaker 5: about this, like you have to call a spade a

1433
01:22:46,680 --> 01:22:49,400
Speaker 5: space when it comes to what's happening in Gaza, which

1434
01:22:49,439 --> 01:22:52,960
Speaker 5: is a deliberate and targeted campt to kill civilians, thousands

1435
01:22:53,000 --> 01:22:56,519
Speaker 5: and tens of thousands of children even And I think

1436
01:22:57,760 --> 01:23:01,000
Speaker 5: until we move the conversation onto where that is being

1437
01:23:01,080 --> 01:23:04,599
Speaker 5: called by its name, that is to say, genocide, then

1438
01:23:05,280 --> 01:23:07,280
Speaker 5: I don't think we'll see that the reactions that we need,

1439
01:23:07,320 --> 01:23:09,360
Speaker 5: and I think they appear to have reflected on that.

1440
01:23:09,479 --> 01:23:12,679
Speaker 5: I wish they've got there sooner, but they're there now,

1441
01:23:13,320 --> 01:23:16,080
Speaker 5: and I'm sorry that it took these people's lives to

1442
01:23:16,160 --> 01:23:18,320
Speaker 5: get there. But what I see from them is what

1443
01:23:18,360 --> 01:23:20,559
Speaker 5: I see from other NGOs. It's not they're not certainly

1444
01:23:20,640 --> 01:23:23,000
Speaker 5: not uniquely bad. In fact, they are better than very

1445
01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:25,439
Speaker 5: many indios. And they were there when other people weren't,

1446
01:23:25,479 --> 01:23:27,760
Speaker 5: and they're delivering food when other people weren't, So I

1447
01:23:27,760 --> 01:23:31,639
Speaker 5: don't want, I don't want to distract from that. But yeah,

1448
01:23:31,640 --> 01:23:34,800
Speaker 5: they're this messaging, this internal conduct, like there's somebody these

1449
01:23:34,840 --> 01:23:38,360
Speaker 5: internal messages, they are traveling and like again, it's just

1450
01:23:38,360 --> 01:23:41,200
Speaker 5: what i'd expect from any other NGO, whereas I've seen

1451
01:23:41,200 --> 01:23:42,840
Speaker 5: these guys do things in many ways sort of better

1452
01:23:42,880 --> 01:23:46,000
Speaker 5: than other angios, but none if that messaging takes away

1453
01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:48,800
Speaker 5: from these people giving their lives, and I don't want

1454
01:23:48,840 --> 01:23:49,400
Speaker 5: to suggest that.

1455
01:23:50,600 --> 01:23:52,320
Speaker 8: I think the most telling thing is that they're making

1456
01:23:52,360 --> 01:23:55,200
Speaker 8: the biases of their the top people that work for

1457
01:23:55,240 --> 01:23:58,000
Speaker 8: this company very evident. And the article goes into Linda

1458
01:23:58,080 --> 01:24:01,559
Speaker 8: Roth's background and her pro Israeli stances in the past,

1459
01:24:02,040 --> 01:24:04,880
Speaker 8: and the fact that in all the outwardly facing materials

1460
01:24:05,200 --> 01:24:08,360
Speaker 8: about Gaza, it was very typical to change the word

1461
01:24:08,400 --> 01:24:11,519
Speaker 8: siege to conflict or to question the blockades. It talks

1462
01:24:11,560 --> 01:24:14,840
Speaker 8: about how the people at the very top their biases

1463
01:24:14,920 --> 01:24:17,280
Speaker 8: just seeped through and the people that were actually working

1464
01:24:17,280 --> 01:24:20,559
Speaker 8: for the organization were in disagreement with this. I think

1465
01:24:20,600 --> 01:24:22,960
Speaker 8: the last thing I want to read from this article

1466
01:24:23,680 --> 01:24:27,639
Speaker 8: just really highlights that WCK did not protect the people

1467
01:24:27,680 --> 01:24:31,479
Speaker 8: that worked for them. It says, save the possibility of

1468
01:24:31,560 --> 01:24:35,599
Speaker 8: genuine and competence, the WCK leadership's decisions were not made

1469
01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:39,559
Speaker 8: to maintain neutrality, did not increase effectiveness, and as April

1470
01:24:39,560 --> 01:24:43,800
Speaker 8: first demonstrated, did not protect personnel. The leadership's failure to

1471
01:24:43,880 --> 01:24:47,519
Speaker 8: honestly portray the dire reality in Gaza and lack of

1472
01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:50,360
Speaker 8: an attempt to influence the genocide in Gaza via its

1473
01:24:50,360 --> 01:24:53,880
Speaker 8: status and close ties to the Bien administration means that

1474
01:24:53,920 --> 01:24:57,759
Speaker 8: they bear responsibility for its outcomes. Let no one say

1475
01:24:58,000 --> 01:25:01,400
Speaker 8: they did everything they could. And this is obviously talking

1476
01:25:01,439 --> 01:25:04,920
Speaker 8: about the leadership versus the personnel. And then he goes

1477
01:25:04,960 --> 01:25:07,080
Speaker 8: on to close the article saying that his experience is

1478
01:25:07,080 --> 01:25:10,080
Speaker 8: one experience and when he resigned there was a palpable,

1479
01:25:10,120 --> 01:25:14,400
Speaker 8: widespread atmosphere of disappointment among the staff and employees. And

1480
01:25:14,479 --> 01:25:18,600
Speaker 8: he ends with just calling on current and former WCK employees, contractors,

1481
01:25:18,600 --> 01:25:21,840
Speaker 8: and volunteers to publicly share their stories as well in

1482
01:25:21,920 --> 01:25:24,280
Speaker 8: order to force accountability and change.

1483
01:25:25,120 --> 01:25:27,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, if you work for a Central Kitchen, you

1484
01:25:27,960 --> 01:25:31,680
Speaker 5: can message us hate to hear your stories that.

1485
01:25:32,439 --> 01:25:35,799
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, we wanted to make sure that this perspective

1486
01:25:35,960 --> 01:25:39,799
Speaker 8: was shared. And again the article will be in the description,

1487
01:25:39,920 --> 01:25:42,960
Speaker 8: so please give it a good read. But yeah, that

1488
01:25:43,200 --> 01:26:13,280
Speaker 8: is the episode. Thanks for listening, Three pals done.

1489
01:26:00,120 --> 01:26:04,799
Speaker 1: Welcome back to It could Happen here a podcast about

1490
01:26:04,840 --> 01:26:08,080
Speaker 1: things falling apart. And when things fall apart, one of

1491
01:26:08,080 --> 01:26:09,840
Speaker 1: the things that happens is you get a bunch of

1492
01:26:10,040 --> 01:26:12,679
Speaker 1: a lot of opportunities for a lot of weird little guys,

1493
01:26:12,760 --> 01:26:14,880
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of Nazis and other kinds

1494
01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:17,719
Speaker 1: of scums start, you know, sliding up to the surface

1495
01:26:17,920 --> 01:26:21,000
Speaker 1: in the hopes that they can get some of the sweet,

1496
01:26:21,040 --> 01:26:25,040
Speaker 1: sweet oxygen of collapse. And that's why we've brought onto

1497
01:26:25,040 --> 01:26:27,920
Speaker 1: the program and are bringing into the network our good

1498
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:32,559
Speaker 1: friend Molly Conger for a little recurrence series. I like

1499
01:26:32,640 --> 01:26:36,160
Speaker 1: to call look who's stalking? That was the That was

1500
01:26:36,240 --> 01:26:38,519
Speaker 1: the stocking joke. I'm wanted to open the episode with

1501
01:26:38,640 --> 01:26:39,400
Speaker 1: my own journeys.

1502
01:26:39,520 --> 01:26:42,439
Speaker 11: I'm not stalking anyone. I would never do that. That

1503
01:26:42,640 --> 01:26:44,480
Speaker 11: is a crime. This is reporting.

1504
01:26:46,040 --> 01:26:49,720
Speaker 1: It is reporting, and the line between reporting and stalking always.

1505
01:26:49,360 --> 01:26:57,240
Speaker 11: Clear, you know. I think it's it's on the publication. Yeah, yeah, so, Robert,

1506
01:26:57,320 --> 01:27:00,360
Speaker 11: Today's topic is such a perfect mash up of so

1507
01:27:00,479 --> 01:27:03,160
Speaker 11: many of my favorite things. It couldn't be more my

1508
01:27:03,280 --> 01:27:05,800
Speaker 11: speed unless this whole story took place on a Wiener

1509
01:27:05,840 --> 01:27:06,400
Speaker 11: dog ranch.

1510
01:27:06,600 --> 01:27:08,080
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah.

1511
01:27:08,120 --> 01:27:10,880
Speaker 11: This story has city council meetings that got rowdy. It

1512
01:27:10,920 --> 01:27:13,080
Speaker 11: has unite the right attendee getting docks. It has the

1513
01:27:13,120 --> 01:27:15,559
Speaker 11: internal calms of a hate group getting leaked. It has

1514
01:27:15,680 --> 01:27:18,040
Speaker 11: regular ass people putting their foot down about hate in

1515
01:27:18,080 --> 01:27:21,120
Speaker 11: their town. It is a year's long arc of one

1516
01:27:21,120 --> 01:27:25,320
Speaker 11: man's journey from fucking around to finding out his evolution,

1517
01:27:25,520 --> 01:27:29,479
Speaker 11: from chanting you will not replace us to getting replaced

1518
01:27:29,520 --> 01:27:33,360
Speaker 11: at the ballot box. This is the story of Enid, Oklahoma,

1519
01:27:33,680 --> 01:27:37,600
Speaker 11: Ward one City Commissioner Judson Gannon Blevins.

1520
01:27:38,200 --> 01:27:41,320
Speaker 1: Oh my god, ah, we're going back to my old home.

1521
01:27:42,600 --> 01:27:45,240
Speaker 11: That's why you spent some time in Oklahoma as a kid.

1522
01:27:45,360 --> 01:27:48,080
Speaker 11: So jud Levins was raised in the town of en

1523
01:27:48,120 --> 01:27:51,679
Speaker 11: in Oklahoma, and the listener, you'd be forgiven for thinking

1524
01:27:51,720 --> 01:27:53,880
Speaker 11: this is the story of a small town. And I'll

1525
01:27:53,920 --> 01:27:56,519
Speaker 11: be honest, I did. I'd never heard of Enid, but

1526
01:27:56,760 --> 01:27:58,160
Speaker 11: you grew up in the area. Do you have any

1527
01:27:58,200 --> 01:28:01,760
Speaker 11: sort of pre existing notions of gar Field County? Uh?

1528
01:28:01,840 --> 01:28:05,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean Enid was like a bigger play. I

1529
01:28:05,880 --> 01:28:07,960
Speaker 1: grew up in Ida Bell, which was really out in

1530
01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:11,960
Speaker 1: the sticks, so kind of everywhere was more civilization than

1531
01:28:12,000 --> 01:28:15,439
Speaker 1: Ida Bell, but Enid certainly was, although not much. No

1532
01:28:15,479 --> 01:28:18,040
Speaker 1: one would no one would accuse it of much civilization.

1533
01:28:18,840 --> 01:28:22,320
Speaker 11: It is apparently the ninth largest city in Oklahoma, which

1534
01:28:22,400 --> 01:28:24,080
Speaker 11: was surprising to me. It's an hour and a half

1535
01:28:24,120 --> 01:28:28,640
Speaker 11: outside of Oklahoma City, seventy six percent white, sixty percent Republican,

1536
01:28:29,080 --> 01:28:31,799
Speaker 11: and according to a twenty twenty one article on Yahoo

1537
01:28:31,840 --> 01:28:34,920
Speaker 11: News that reads like it was written by an intoxicated chatbot,

1538
01:28:35,240 --> 01:28:37,640
Speaker 11: it is ranked one of the most conservative cities in

1539
01:28:37,680 --> 01:28:38,160
Speaker 11: the country.

1540
01:28:38,760 --> 01:28:42,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, that all scans for Enid, Jared, Now that scans

1541
01:28:42,720 --> 01:28:45,400
Speaker 1: for a lot of cities in Oklahoma, mind you.

1542
01:28:45,760 --> 01:28:48,920
Speaker 11: Right, They could have named any of them. Yeah, but

1543
01:28:48,960 --> 01:28:51,080
Speaker 11: it has a population of about fifty thousand, which is

1544
01:28:51,080 --> 01:28:55,080
Speaker 11: actually the same size as Charlottesville, my hometown and a

1545
01:28:55,160 --> 01:28:58,320
Speaker 11: city that Johnson Blevens happened to visit. In the summer

1546
01:28:58,360 --> 01:29:01,680
Speaker 11: of twenty seventeen eighteen, the former US Marine moved back

1547
01:29:01,680 --> 01:29:03,960
Speaker 11: to his hometown to work at his father's roofing business.

1548
01:29:04,600 --> 01:29:07,599
Speaker 11: In twenty nineteen, he was publicly identified as a regional

1549
01:29:07,680 --> 01:29:11,679
Speaker 11: leader in a white supremacist organization, and in twenty twenty

1550
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:14,480
Speaker 11: two he announced he was running for office.

1551
01:29:15,160 --> 01:29:19,559
Speaker 1: I mean that all that's a very Oklahoma politician route.

1552
01:29:19,640 --> 01:29:22,200
Speaker 1: It's also like a not a white like, from from

1553
01:29:22,320 --> 01:29:26,400
Speaker 1: roofing to white supremacy, not a wildly uncommon route for

1554
01:29:26,479 --> 01:29:27,840
Speaker 1: people to take in Oklahoma.

1555
01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:29,000
Speaker 11: Now he's still doing both.

1556
01:29:29,479 --> 01:29:29,880
Speaker 5: Oh good.

1557
01:29:29,880 --> 01:29:31,479
Speaker 1: I mean, you never want to give up on your

1558
01:29:31,560 --> 01:29:33,920
Speaker 1: passion for roofing. That would have made me sad.

1559
01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:36,080
Speaker 11: Although some of his supporters have pointed out that he

1560
01:29:36,200 --> 01:29:38,759
Speaker 11: hires lots of non white people to do manual labor,

1561
01:29:38,800 --> 01:29:39,920
Speaker 11: so how could he be racist?

1562
01:29:40,320 --> 01:29:41,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you don't want to get up on

1563
01:29:41,479 --> 01:29:45,920
Speaker 1: those roofs yourself. That's dangerous, Czarr. Yeah, it's hot out, Yeah,

1564
01:29:46,040 --> 01:29:47,639
Speaker 1: this is all pretty Oklahoma so far.

1565
01:29:48,680 --> 01:29:52,160
Speaker 11: On February fourteenth, twenty twenty three, jud Levins narrowly won

1566
01:29:52,200 --> 01:29:54,759
Speaker 11: a seat on the Eden City Council, defeating the incumbent

1567
01:29:54,800 --> 01:29:58,360
Speaker 11: by just thirty six votes. His past ties the now

1568
01:29:58,400 --> 01:30:02,720
Speaker 11: defunct white supremacist group Europa were no secret. Of course,

1569
01:30:02,760 --> 01:30:05,680
Speaker 11: by twenty twenty three, Identity Europa didn't exist anymore. So

1570
01:30:05,680 --> 01:30:07,160
Speaker 11: I don't blame you if you don't have a clear

1571
01:30:07,240 --> 01:30:09,760
Speaker 11: memory of exactly what kind of Nazi group they were.

1572
01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:11,639
Speaker 11: And I want to make it very clear. I don't

1573
01:30:11,640 --> 01:30:14,400
Speaker 11: want time, distance and white polo shirts to soften this.

1574
01:30:14,960 --> 01:30:17,599
Speaker 11: Identity Europa was a neo Nazi organization.

1575
01:30:17,760 --> 01:30:20,920
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. They were also just like the most infiltrated

1576
01:30:20,960 --> 01:30:24,280
Speaker 1: group of the Trump era. Like of all the Nazi

1577
01:30:24,360 --> 01:30:25,920
Speaker 1: orgs in the Trump era, I feel like they were

1578
01:30:25,920 --> 01:30:28,839
Speaker 1: the one where every week someone else got inside their coms.

1579
01:30:30,600 --> 01:30:33,680
Speaker 11: Well, I guess Bluvin's maybe part to blame for that

1580
01:30:33,760 --> 01:30:35,320
Speaker 11: as the regional coordinator.

1581
01:30:35,800 --> 01:30:37,880
Speaker 1: Oh good, so he was doing a great job.

1582
01:30:38,520 --> 01:30:40,960
Speaker 11: But Identity Europa was modeled after the far right French

1583
01:30:41,000 --> 01:30:44,240
Speaker 11: identitarian movement and sought the creation of a white ethno state.

1584
01:30:45,080 --> 01:30:47,519
Speaker 11: You will not replace us, chance you remember from Unite

1585
01:30:47,520 --> 01:30:50,200
Speaker 11: the Right were actually popularized by Identity Europa at their

1586
01:30:50,320 --> 01:30:53,680
Speaker 11: rallies earlier that year, and, according to testimony from a

1587
01:30:53,680 --> 01:30:57,799
Speaker 11: former girlfriend, one time Identity Euroopa leader Elliot Klein considered

1588
01:30:57,880 --> 01:31:02,960
Speaker 11: himself quote an unironic exterminationist, and he had violent fantasies

1589
01:31:03,000 --> 01:31:07,240
Speaker 11: about killing Jewish people himself. So it's not just guys

1590
01:31:07,240 --> 01:31:08,040
Speaker 11: hanging out right.

1591
01:31:08,520 --> 01:31:08,760
Speaker 1: No.

1592
01:31:09,439 --> 01:31:13,360
Speaker 11: Identity Europa was founded in twenty sixteen by Nathan Dimigo,

1593
01:31:13,439 --> 01:31:16,280
Speaker 11: a former marine who went to prison after drunkenly pulling

1594
01:31:16,320 --> 01:31:19,720
Speaker 11: a gun on a cab driver for quote looking iraqi.

1595
01:31:20,520 --> 01:31:24,920
Speaker 1: Well that gets at least he's honest.

1596
01:31:26,000 --> 01:31:28,519
Speaker 11: But while he was doing his time, he read David

1597
01:31:28,600 --> 01:31:29,960
Speaker 11: Duke's autobiography.

1598
01:31:31,200 --> 01:31:32,760
Speaker 1: Oh and he.

1599
01:31:33,160 --> 01:31:35,439
Speaker 11: Had an awakening, right, he read My Awakening and he

1600
01:31:35,479 --> 01:31:37,880
Speaker 11: had an awakening in prison. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know,

1601
01:31:37,960 --> 01:31:39,479
Speaker 11: you go to prison for a hay crime, you read

1602
01:31:39,479 --> 01:31:41,320
Speaker 11: a little David Duke, you get some ideas.

1603
01:31:43,400 --> 01:31:47,160
Speaker 1: Man, it it's not a good book. Like that's my

1604
01:31:47,240 --> 01:31:51,240
Speaker 1: thing about having David Duke's autobiography be like your life

1605
01:31:51,360 --> 01:31:54,439
Speaker 1: changing event, is it? It's not even a good book, right,

1606
01:31:54,479 --> 01:31:57,360
Speaker 1: which I guess neither was mind comp but I feel

1607
01:31:57,360 --> 01:31:59,360
Speaker 1: like everyone's lying about that one.

1608
01:32:00,000 --> 01:32:02,320
Speaker 11: According to some this is so off the beaten path here,

1609
01:32:02,360 --> 01:32:04,559
Speaker 11: this is I have to say it. According to some

1610
01:32:05,560 --> 01:32:09,200
Speaker 11: payments that came out in a divorce proceeding, David Duke

1611
01:32:09,280 --> 01:32:13,400
Speaker 11: made payments to Kevin Strome for ghostwriting it. Kevin Strom

1612
01:32:13,640 --> 01:32:16,800
Speaker 11: is the pedophile who actually said that thing that people

1613
01:32:16,800 --> 01:32:18,479
Speaker 11: think full terror said about the Jews.

1614
01:32:19,439 --> 01:32:23,280
Speaker 1: Oh cool, yeah great.

1615
01:32:24,200 --> 01:32:26,320
Speaker 11: So just something to think about when you're reading David

1616
01:32:26,360 --> 01:32:28,120
Speaker 11: Duke's autobiography in prison.

1617
01:32:28,240 --> 01:32:31,680
Speaker 1: I guess, I mean, I guess I had wondered what

1618
01:32:31,840 --> 01:32:34,720
Speaker 1: happens to pedophiles, like when they're back out in the world, like,

1619
01:32:34,760 --> 01:32:35,040
Speaker 1: how do.

1620
01:32:35,000 --> 01:32:39,680
Speaker 11: Your wife now? No that was before that was yeah, no,

1621
01:32:39,720 --> 01:32:40,800
Speaker 11: he's got a kid now, so.

1622
01:32:41,400 --> 01:32:47,040
Speaker 1: Oh what, No, he shouldn't do that. Okay, great, not

1623
01:32:47,160 --> 01:32:48,479
Speaker 1: a loved to live near a school. But I guess

1624
01:32:48,520 --> 01:32:51,400
Speaker 1: they can't stop you from procreating. We should evaluate some

1625
01:32:51,479 --> 01:32:52,120
Speaker 1: of that. I don't know.

1626
01:32:52,760 --> 01:32:56,719
Speaker 11: Anyway, back to our friend Nate, right, So, Nathan Amigo

1627
01:32:56,960 --> 01:32:59,240
Speaker 11: gets out of prison, makes his own hate group. You

1628
01:32:59,280 --> 01:33:01,880
Speaker 11: may also remember him as the guy who bravely beat

1629
01:33:01,920 --> 01:33:03,960
Speaker 11: the shit out of a ninety five pound woman at

1630
01:33:04,000 --> 01:33:07,240
Speaker 11: the rally in Berkeley in April of twenty seventeen. Oh yeah,

1631
01:33:07,439 --> 01:33:09,799
Speaker 11: and they memed the hell out of that. They squeezed

1632
01:33:09,800 --> 01:33:11,439
Speaker 11: it for all it was worth. That they used that

1633
01:33:11,479 --> 01:33:14,160
Speaker 11: image of him beating that woman in the street for

1634
01:33:14,280 --> 01:33:18,560
Speaker 11: promotion and recruitment. Dimigo himself touted a spike in membership applications,

1635
01:33:18,560 --> 01:33:21,799
Speaker 11: which he attributed to the popularity of the video. Identity

1636
01:33:21,840 --> 01:33:24,680
Speaker 11: Europa was heavily involved in the Summer of Hate, that

1637
01:33:24,800 --> 01:33:27,200
Speaker 11: rash of violent white supremacist rallies across the country in

1638
01:33:27,240 --> 01:33:30,040
Speaker 11: twenty seventeen. They were instrumental in planning as Unite the

1639
01:33:30,080 --> 01:33:30,639
Speaker 11: Right rally.

1640
01:33:31,479 --> 01:33:32,280
Speaker 6: But when the.

1641
01:33:32,200 --> 01:33:35,080
Speaker 11: Group's discord server was leaked in March of twenty nineteen

1642
01:33:35,120 --> 01:33:38,320
Speaker 11: and published in full by Unicorn Riot, their leader at

1643
01:33:38,320 --> 01:33:41,479
Speaker 11: the time, Patrick Casey, quickly announced a rebrand, Identity Europa

1644
01:33:41,560 --> 01:33:44,320
Speaker 11: is no more. They were the American Identity Movement now,

1645
01:33:44,880 --> 01:33:47,759
Speaker 11: much to the displeasure of the American Indian Movement, whose

1646
01:33:47,800 --> 01:33:51,080
Speaker 11: acronym they stole. But the rebrand was not successful and

1647
01:33:51,120 --> 01:33:54,479
Speaker 11: the group died out completely in twenty twenty, and Casey

1648
01:33:54,520 --> 01:33:56,760
Speaker 11: tried to pretend the rebrand wasn't just an attempt to

1649
01:33:56,840 --> 01:33:59,160
Speaker 11: escape the fallout of the leak, but it really was

1650
01:33:59,200 --> 01:34:01,920
Speaker 11: the leak that killed Identity Europa. At least seven active

1651
01:34:01,960 --> 01:34:04,639
Speaker 11: duty military members were identified in the league. A school

1652
01:34:04,680 --> 01:34:07,280
Speaker 11: resource officer at a high school in Virginia was suspended,

1653
01:34:07,640 --> 01:34:10,840
Speaker 11: a Minnesota National Guardsman was recalled from basic training. So

1654
01:34:10,920 --> 01:34:13,160
Speaker 11: jud Levins was just one of dozens of members of

1655
01:34:13,200 --> 01:34:16,400
Speaker 11: the group to be identified in those chatlogs. The work

1656
01:34:16,400 --> 01:34:18,880
Speaker 11: of anti fascist researchers who identified Blevins and the leak

1657
01:34:19,000 --> 01:34:21,880
Speaker 11: chats was corroborated and published in an article on right

1658
01:34:21,880 --> 01:34:25,160
Speaker 11: wing Watch by Jared Hult within weeks, and it's about

1659
01:34:25,200 --> 01:34:26,880
Speaker 11: as solid as an idea as you could hope for

1660
01:34:26,920 --> 01:34:29,920
Speaker 11: from a chatlog, or, depending on your position, the kind

1661
01:34:29,960 --> 01:34:33,760
Speaker 11: of idea you really don't want. A user called Conway

1662
01:34:33,960 --> 01:34:37,960
Speaker 11: was Identity Europa's regional coordinator for Oklahoma. He recruited and

1663
01:34:38,040 --> 01:34:41,919
Speaker 11: vetted new members, organized outings for banner drops and social events,

1664
01:34:42,280 --> 01:34:45,040
Speaker 11: and frequently posted pictures of the white supremacist propaganda he'd

1665
01:34:45,080 --> 01:34:47,360
Speaker 11: been putting up, encouraging others to do the same, and

1666
01:34:47,479 --> 01:34:50,040
Speaker 11: offering tips on how to create more effective visuals for

1667
01:34:50,040 --> 01:34:54,240
Speaker 11: the group's online accounts. In over eleven hundred posts over

1668
01:34:54,280 --> 01:34:57,679
Speaker 11: a nearly two year period, he left a lot of clues.

1669
01:34:58,400 --> 01:35:01,799
Speaker 11: He posted a link to an article in his hometown paper,

1670
01:35:02,160 --> 01:35:04,600
Speaker 11: the Enid News and Eagle. He posted a photo of

1671
01:35:04,640 --> 01:35:07,920
Speaker 11: a relative's baby, details about his parents' lineage, his plans

1672
01:35:07,920 --> 01:35:10,160
Speaker 11: to move home to work for his father's business, and

1673
01:35:10,200 --> 01:35:11,719
Speaker 11: in the lead up to the Unite the Right rally,

1674
01:35:11,760 --> 01:35:14,040
Speaker 11: he excitedly shared the discord that he would be carrying

1675
01:35:14,080 --> 01:35:17,280
Speaker 11: the original flag of the state of Oklahoma, a red

1676
01:35:17,320 --> 01:35:20,280
Speaker 11: rectangle with the number forty six inside of a white star,

1677
01:35:21,040 --> 01:35:24,479
Speaker 11: and photos from the rally show just one man carrying

1678
01:35:24,479 --> 01:35:27,120
Speaker 11: that distinctive flag that was designed by a member of

1679
01:35:27,160 --> 01:35:30,880
Speaker 11: the Daughters of the Confederacy, jud Levins. As he grew

1680
01:35:30,880 --> 01:35:33,960
Speaker 11: into his role as regional coordinator for Identity Europa, he

1681
01:35:34,040 --> 01:35:37,479
Speaker 11: coordinated member meetups, getting several guys from Oklahoma to drive

1682
01:35:37,520 --> 01:35:40,719
Speaker 11: down to Texas for a get together. Conway posted about

1683
01:35:40,720 --> 01:35:44,080
Speaker 11: the meetup, and photos posted by other attendees show Blevins

1684
01:35:44,200 --> 01:35:47,080
Speaker 11: standing shoulder to shoulder with other members holding a large

1685
01:35:47,080 --> 01:35:51,600
Speaker 11: Identity Europa banner. Conway even posted about his appearance on

1686
01:35:51,600 --> 01:35:54,600
Speaker 11: a twenty eighteen episode of Identity Europa's podcast, where he

1687
01:35:54,640 --> 01:35:57,840
Speaker 11: emphasized the importance of staying in the You will not

1688
01:35:57,920 --> 01:36:01,040
Speaker 11: replace us mindset. The time he announced his run for

1689
01:36:01,040 --> 01:36:03,360
Speaker 11: office in twenty twenty two, it had been over three

1690
01:36:03,479 --> 01:36:05,840
Speaker 11: years since he'd been out at as Conway, the Hate

1691
01:36:05,840 --> 01:36:07,880
Speaker 11: Group member who attended the Unite the Right rally.

1692
01:36:08,400 --> 01:36:11,599
Speaker 1: And you could see why he would think it would work, right,

1693
01:36:11,680 --> 01:36:16,799
Speaker 1: because that you will not replace us thing. It's become

1694
01:36:16,960 --> 01:36:22,440
Speaker 1: like the mainstream Republican politics, right like this this ideology

1695
01:36:22,479 --> 01:36:25,720
Speaker 1: has at least one in the Republican Party, but it's

1696
01:36:25,760 --> 01:36:29,960
Speaker 1: also one divorced from these guys because even they are like,

1697
01:36:30,000 --> 01:36:34,840
Speaker 1: they're too toxic for even the modern Republicans. Like it's remarkable,

1698
01:36:34,880 --> 01:36:37,160
Speaker 1: but I also get why he thought this would work.

1699
01:36:38,160 --> 01:36:41,240
Speaker 11: And I think, I mean, I don't know what his

1700
01:36:41,479 --> 01:36:44,880
Speaker 11: connection remained to other members of IE after it dissolved,

1701
01:36:44,920 --> 01:36:47,760
Speaker 11: but towards the end of it, as it was dying, right,

1702
01:36:48,040 --> 01:36:51,519
Speaker 11: So under Elliott Klein, you know, Klein wanted to make

1703
01:36:51,520 --> 01:36:53,840
Speaker 11: a militia for Richard Spencer. He wanted to you know,

1704
01:36:53,960 --> 01:36:56,719
Speaker 11: build IE into a fighting force. But under Patrick Casey,

1705
01:36:56,800 --> 01:36:59,840
Speaker 11: they sort of moved back towards we should be trying

1706
01:36:59,880 --> 01:37:04,120
Speaker 11: to influence inside of politics. We should be going to

1707
01:37:04,400 --> 01:37:09,120
Speaker 11: colleges and getting you know, conservative students to become more base. Right,

1708
01:37:09,120 --> 01:37:12,800
Speaker 11: so this is a rational course of conduct, I think

1709
01:37:12,880 --> 01:37:16,479
Speaker 11: for where he was in twenty nineteen when Identity Europa died.

1710
01:37:17,040 --> 01:37:19,760
Speaker 11: But in any case, by twenty twenty two, anybody in

1711
01:37:19,960 --> 01:37:23,240
Speaker 11: Enid you could read his posts praising Hitler and celebrating

1712
01:37:23,280 --> 01:37:25,880
Speaker 11: Identity Europa for striking fear into the heart of the

1713
01:37:26,000 --> 01:37:27,280
Speaker 11: jew his words.

1714
01:37:27,640 --> 01:37:27,800
Speaker 7: You know.

1715
01:37:27,920 --> 01:37:30,120
Speaker 11: You could see pictures of him at Unite the Right,

1716
01:37:30,280 --> 01:37:32,320
Speaker 11: both on the morning of the twelfth in the park

1717
01:37:32,520 --> 01:37:34,320
Speaker 11: and the evening of the eleventh with a torch. You

1718
01:37:34,360 --> 01:37:37,080
Speaker 11: could see pictures of him going to Texas for Ie meetups.

1719
01:37:37,400 --> 01:37:39,680
Speaker 11: You could see the dozens and dozens of photos he

1720
01:37:39,760 --> 01:37:42,840
Speaker 11: posted in the discord of Nazi posters and stickers he

1721
01:37:42,840 --> 01:37:45,439
Speaker 11: had put up on telephone polls and college bulletin boards

1722
01:37:45,479 --> 01:37:48,360
Speaker 11: across Oklahoma, and the posts where he reveled in the

1723
01:37:48,360 --> 01:37:52,040
Speaker 11: media coverage of the recruitment materials he left inside library books.

1724
01:37:53,600 --> 01:37:56,479
Speaker 11: His hometown newspaper, the Enid News and Eagle, ran an

1725
01:37:56,520 --> 01:38:00,320
Speaker 11: article about the allegations, which he never denied. A month

1726
01:38:00,360 --> 01:38:03,120
Speaker 11: before the election, and without ever having to give a

1727
01:38:03,120 --> 01:38:07,160
Speaker 11: straight answer on the issue, he won, and that could

1728
01:38:07,160 --> 01:38:09,080
Speaker 11: have been the end of the story. Right, You know,

1729
01:38:09,120 --> 01:38:10,880
Speaker 11: we've seen this trend in the last few years of

1730
01:38:10,920 --> 01:38:13,840
Speaker 11: these radical right wing elements trying to melt into the

1731
01:38:13,880 --> 01:38:16,880
Speaker 11: mainstream Republican party. You know, we've got these horrible little

1732
01:38:16,880 --> 01:38:20,360
Speaker 11: gropers working in congressional staff positions, and you know nazis

1733
01:38:20,400 --> 01:38:23,639
Speaker 11: going to spack and not getting ejected. They're getting out

1734
01:38:23,640 --> 01:38:26,000
Speaker 11: of the streets and into the meeting rooms.

1735
01:38:26,320 --> 01:38:26,559
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1736
01:38:26,880 --> 01:38:29,559
Speaker 11: An account tied to blevins that he recently for the

1737
01:38:29,560 --> 01:38:31,320
Speaker 11: first time denied this was him.

1738
01:38:31,800 --> 01:38:32,200
Speaker 6: It's him.

1739
01:38:32,240 --> 01:38:35,000
Speaker 11: This has been widely reported. It was a Twitter account

1740
01:38:35,040 --> 01:38:40,960
Speaker 11: called at Abolish Journalism posted in twenty nineteen quote sts

1741
01:38:41,640 --> 01:38:44,800
Speaker 11: I agree with the argument GOP cannot be changed from

1742
01:38:44,840 --> 01:38:48,400
Speaker 11: the bottom up. However, I do not believe in discouraging

1743
01:38:48,479 --> 01:38:51,760
Speaker 11: our guys from getting elected into smaller offices such as

1744
01:38:51,760 --> 01:38:56,480
Speaker 11: city council, county commissioner, or even state legislators. Basically positions

1745
01:38:56,479 --> 01:39:00,760
Speaker 11: where one can fly under the radar yet still be effective.

1746
01:39:01,600 --> 01:39:04,360
Speaker 11: And that's what this is, right. This isn't a guy

1747
01:39:04,400 --> 01:39:07,400
Speaker 11: who got out of White Nationals organizing and in an

1748
01:39:07,479 --> 01:39:11,840
Speaker 11: unrelated fashion, became a local politician. No, he said years

1749
01:39:11,840 --> 01:39:13,840
Speaker 11: before he did this that this was a good idea

1750
01:39:13,920 --> 01:39:16,240
Speaker 11: that he had. You know, he never said I renounced

1751
01:39:16,280 --> 01:39:18,519
Speaker 11: my previous actions and beliefs. I regret bringing an active

1752
01:39:18,520 --> 01:39:21,559
Speaker 11: recruiter for a hate group. He just changed the way

1753
01:39:21,600 --> 01:39:24,800
Speaker 11: he was doing it. And he said countless opportunities to

1754
01:39:24,840 --> 01:39:27,120
Speaker 11: be clear about what he believes today and whether that's

1755
01:39:27,160 --> 01:39:29,680
Speaker 11: different from the beliefs he espoused between twenty seventeen and

1756
01:39:29,680 --> 01:39:33,360
Speaker 11: twenty nineteen, and he won't. He won't say I no

1757
01:39:33,400 --> 01:39:35,559
Speaker 11: longer identify with the posts I made when I was

1758
01:39:35,680 --> 01:39:39,800
Speaker 11: enthusiastically posting the fourteen words. And that's probably because he

1759
01:39:39,840 --> 01:39:41,960
Speaker 11: just found a better way to do it. But there

1760
01:39:41,960 --> 01:39:45,120
Speaker 11: were people in Enid, Oklahoma who saw right through that.

1761
01:39:45,800 --> 01:39:48,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is where the story takes a turn that like,

1762
01:39:49,200 --> 01:39:52,360
Speaker 1: I don't know, it made me hopeful because the first

1763
01:39:52,360 --> 01:39:57,000
Speaker 1: time I ever met a klansman was, you know, in Oklahoma.

1764
01:39:57,320 --> 01:39:59,120
Speaker 1: It was the dad of a friend of mine. Like

1765
01:39:59,200 --> 01:40:02,200
Speaker 1: he like that, this kid bragged about it, and I

1766
01:40:02,240 --> 01:40:03,880
Speaker 1: didn't know what a klansman was. And I had to

1767
01:40:03,920 --> 01:40:06,760
Speaker 1: go to my parents and like be like, hey, so

1768
01:40:07,120 --> 01:40:09,519
Speaker 1: you know so and so said this about his dad.

1769
01:40:09,600 --> 01:40:11,880
Speaker 1: What does that mean? And my mom was just like, well,

1770
01:40:11,880 --> 01:40:14,200
Speaker 1: you're not allowed to go to his house anymore. That's

1771
01:40:14,240 --> 01:40:17,000
Speaker 1: what that means, Juxes.

1772
01:40:18,600 --> 01:40:19,439
Speaker 6: Jesus Christ.

1773
01:40:19,720 --> 01:40:22,240
Speaker 1: If this like, if this guy had like, if shit

1774
01:40:22,280 --> 01:40:24,400
Speaker 1: had gone well for him, I guess that would have

1775
01:40:24,439 --> 01:40:27,200
Speaker 1: been my assumption. But that's that was my assumption based

1776
01:40:27,240 --> 01:40:31,080
Speaker 1: on me not giving a fair shake to Enid, Oklahoma, Right.

1777
01:40:31,160 --> 01:40:33,800
Speaker 11: I think that's you know what's so remarkable about this

1778
01:40:33,880 --> 01:40:37,439
Speaker 11: story is people didn't think Oklahoma could do it. But

1779
01:40:37,520 --> 01:40:41,679
Speaker 11: you know who can accomplish everything they set out to do?

1780
01:40:42,320 --> 01:40:46,120
Speaker 1: Uh huh, that's right, these sponsors, all of whom are

1781
01:40:46,160 --> 01:40:59,479
Speaker 1: available in Enid, Oklahoma, and we're back.

1782
01:41:00,880 --> 01:41:03,280
Speaker 11: Okay, alrighty, so I'm.

1783
01:41:03,120 --> 01:41:04,920
Speaker 1: Happy to hear. Yeah. The next part of this.

1784
01:41:05,720 --> 01:41:08,800
Speaker 11: Levins took office in May of twenty twenty three. Local

1785
01:41:08,840 --> 01:41:13,000
Speaker 11: election law requires a six month wait between being sworn

1786
01:41:13,040 --> 01:41:17,160
Speaker 11: in and when a recall attempt can be initiated, but

1787
01:41:17,160 --> 01:41:20,320
Speaker 11: the residents who opposed Levins didn't wait quietly. A group

1788
01:41:20,360 --> 01:41:23,160
Speaker 11: called the Enid Social Justice Committee protested his swearing in,

1789
01:41:23,640 --> 01:41:27,240
Speaker 11: with some protesters holding posters bearing a photo of Blevins

1790
01:41:27,600 --> 01:41:31,080
Speaker 11: holding a torch at the August eleven, twenty seventeen Nazi

1791
01:41:31,120 --> 01:41:35,400
Speaker 11: march at the University of Virginia. And now this I

1792
01:41:35,760 --> 01:41:37,360
Speaker 11: didn't even think about it until I was writing this

1793
01:41:37,520 --> 01:41:40,720
Speaker 11: that what an incredible coincidence of timing. Right, So May

1794
01:41:40,800 --> 01:41:44,320
Speaker 11: twenty twenty three, he's being sworn into office. It was

1795
01:41:44,520 --> 01:41:47,240
Speaker 11: just I think maybe two weeks before he was sworn

1796
01:41:47,280 --> 01:41:51,160
Speaker 11: in that the first indictment was unsealed against the guys

1797
01:41:51,200 --> 01:41:54,400
Speaker 11: who are now facing felony charges for participating in that

1798
01:41:54,439 --> 01:41:56,920
Speaker 11: torch march. Right, so it was we did an episode

1799
01:41:56,960 --> 01:41:59,400
Speaker 11: on this a little bit ago. But if you're not

1800
01:41:59,439 --> 01:42:02,439
Speaker 11: familiar that the guys who marched in that torch march

1801
01:42:02,479 --> 01:42:05,080
Speaker 11: at Eva in twenty seventeen, some of them are now

1802
01:42:05,120 --> 01:42:08,200
Speaker 11: being charged with a felony under Virginia law for burning

1803
01:42:08,240 --> 01:42:10,599
Speaker 11: an object with intent to intimidate. It's obviously a sort

1804
01:42:10,600 --> 01:42:13,280
Speaker 11: of a law aimed at the Klan, right, sort of

1805
01:42:13,280 --> 01:42:15,920
Speaker 11: a crossburning type law. But they were burning, they have

1806
01:42:16,000 --> 01:42:18,640
Speaker 11: these burning objects, and they were menacing people. It was

1807
01:42:18,720 --> 01:42:22,160
Speaker 11: racially motivated. So they're being charged with this felony for

1808
01:42:22,200 --> 01:42:23,000
Speaker 11: burning an object.

1809
01:42:23,720 --> 01:42:26,840
Speaker 1: It does feel like that's, yeah, a pretty good fit.

1810
01:42:27,439 --> 01:42:29,320
Speaker 11: But so right as he's being sworn in, you know,

1811
01:42:29,360 --> 01:42:31,719
Speaker 11: these people are protesting his swearing in with this photo

1812
01:42:31,800 --> 01:42:35,320
Speaker 11: of him with the torch and a couple guys just

1813
01:42:35,439 --> 01:42:39,439
Speaker 11: showed up in jail here in Charlottesville on that charge.

1814
01:42:39,479 --> 01:42:42,280
Speaker 11: So it's it's just a remarkable cognitive dissonance, right to

1815
01:42:42,360 --> 01:42:45,160
Speaker 11: see these people. Some of his supporters in Enid downplaying

1816
01:42:45,160 --> 01:42:49,360
Speaker 11: the seriousness or even outright denying that Levin's attended this rally,

1817
01:42:50,280 --> 01:42:52,439
Speaker 11: But the guys he was standing next to that day

1818
01:42:52,560 --> 01:42:55,599
Speaker 11: are pleading guilty to felonies. You know, he's up there

1819
01:42:55,680 --> 01:42:58,719
Speaker 11: voting on resolutions and passing ordinances about you know, storm

1820
01:42:58,800 --> 01:43:00,760
Speaker 11: water management or whatever. Or I think one of his

1821
01:43:01,479 --> 01:43:04,599
Speaker 11: accomplishments in office was getting a Texas roadhouse in Enid.

1822
01:43:05,240 --> 01:43:07,920
Speaker 1: First off, you shouldn't be proud of having a Texas

1823
01:43:08,000 --> 01:43:12,280
Speaker 1: roadhouse anywhere as a my job used to it might

1824
01:43:12,320 --> 01:43:12,960
Speaker 1: have been a Sizzler.

1825
01:43:13,000 --> 01:43:14,679
Speaker 11: I can't remember something like that.

1826
01:43:15,000 --> 01:43:17,360
Speaker 1: I would be much more excited for a Sizzler than

1827
01:43:17,360 --> 01:43:19,879
Speaker 1: a Texas fucking roadhouse, I'll say that much.

1828
01:43:20,120 --> 01:43:23,120
Speaker 11: But you know he's up there getting a you know,

1829
01:43:23,520 --> 01:43:26,880
Speaker 11: affordable chain steak restaurant in Edid. But there's a non

1830
01:43:27,000 --> 01:43:29,400
Speaker 11: zero chance that he could be arrested at any time

1831
01:43:29,560 --> 01:43:31,920
Speaker 11: and extradited on a felony charge.

1832
01:43:32,240 --> 01:43:36,040
Speaker 1: I mean, look, if there's one thing that's appropriate for

1833
01:43:36,120 --> 01:43:38,439
Speaker 1: the sizzler. It's knowing that the guy who put that

1834
01:43:38,520 --> 01:43:41,240
Speaker 1: sizzler there could be arrested on a felony charge at

1835
01:43:41,240 --> 01:43:41,799
Speaker 1: any moment.

1836
01:43:43,160 --> 01:43:44,760
Speaker 11: And you know, we don't know what the strategy is

1837
01:43:44,800 --> 01:43:47,040
Speaker 11: at the prosecutor's office. Obviously they're not going to charge

1838
01:43:47,080 --> 01:43:49,599
Speaker 11: everybody who is there. But it's on the table right

1839
01:43:49,680 --> 01:43:52,200
Speaker 11: Like he's on video at that march with the torch

1840
01:43:52,200 --> 01:43:54,840
Speaker 11: in his hand. He fits the criteria for the ten

1841
01:43:54,880 --> 01:43:57,120
Speaker 11: other guys that have already gone to jail for this.

1842
01:43:58,040 --> 01:44:00,679
Speaker 11: But in November of twenty twenty three, those six months

1843
01:44:00,720 --> 01:44:04,400
Speaker 11: had passed, recalls on the table now, and before the

1844
01:44:04,439 --> 01:44:07,160
Speaker 11: group made the final push to actually file for the recall,

1845
01:44:07,600 --> 01:44:10,920
Speaker 11: they made an offer of reconciliation. All Blevin's has to

1846
01:44:10,920 --> 01:44:15,360
Speaker 11: do is acknowledge the truth, denounce his past actions, just

1847
01:44:15,439 --> 01:44:18,599
Speaker 11: own up to it, start making amends. Just say yes

1848
01:44:18,640 --> 01:44:21,880
Speaker 11: I did that, No, I don't do it anymore. And

1849
01:44:21,960 --> 01:44:25,240
Speaker 11: he can't do it. Throughout this entire ordeal, he's never

1850
01:44:25,280 --> 01:44:27,760
Speaker 11: owned up to it. There are pictures and video and

1851
01:44:27,800 --> 01:44:31,759
Speaker 11: his own words across multiple online accounts. There's no plausible

1852
01:44:31,760 --> 01:44:34,519
Speaker 11: deniability here. There's no saying, well, maybe that's not him.

1853
01:44:34,720 --> 01:44:37,080
Speaker 11: You know, it's him, so just admit it and say

1854
01:44:37,120 --> 01:44:40,720
Speaker 11: you're not that guy anymore. But he has consistently refused

1855
01:44:40,720 --> 01:44:44,640
Speaker 11: to even acknowledge it right on several occasions, you know,

1856
01:44:44,720 --> 01:44:48,960
Speaker 11: when really pressed, he dismisses that twenty nineteen article by

1857
01:44:49,040 --> 01:44:52,280
Speaker 11: Jared Holt as quote a hit piece posted four years

1858
01:44:52,320 --> 01:44:56,120
Speaker 11: ago by a George Soros funded leftist outlet, calling it

1859
01:44:56,200 --> 01:44:57,840
Speaker 11: smears and slander.

1860
01:44:58,439 --> 01:45:01,360
Speaker 1: Nothing smears somebody like there their own words and actions.

1861
01:45:01,840 --> 01:45:04,160
Speaker 11: I'm being defamed by this photograph of me.

1862
01:45:04,920 --> 01:45:07,800
Speaker 1: I'm being judged simply for the things i chose to do.

1863
01:45:08,960 --> 01:45:12,719
Speaker 11: I thought this was America. But he won't actually deny

1864
01:45:12,800 --> 01:45:15,519
Speaker 11: specific facts. You know, he won't say that isn't me

1865
01:45:15,600 --> 01:45:18,120
Speaker 11: in the photo, or I did not participate in that,

1866
01:45:18,360 --> 01:45:20,799
Speaker 11: or I did not post those nice things about Hitler.

1867
01:45:21,200 --> 01:45:25,400
Speaker 11: He just attacks the people saying it. And while Levens

1868
01:45:25,400 --> 01:45:27,720
Speaker 11: has never denied the truth of the allegations, some of

1869
01:45:27,720 --> 01:45:32,000
Speaker 11: his supporters do. At one of those council meetings in

1870
01:45:32,040 --> 01:45:34,320
Speaker 11: November of last year, a woman speaking in support of

1871
01:45:34,360 --> 01:45:37,400
Speaker 11: Levins said the allegations weren't credible as they came from

1872
01:45:37,479 --> 01:45:41,759
Speaker 11: organizations like the SPLC that quote only exist to smear

1873
01:45:41,880 --> 01:45:43,440
Speaker 11: conservative Christians.

1874
01:45:44,080 --> 01:45:44,679
Speaker 1: There we go.

1875
01:45:46,520 --> 01:45:49,280
Speaker 11: First of all, the SPLC didn't publish it. It was

1876
01:45:49,360 --> 01:45:54,600
Speaker 11: Wright Wing Watch, Yeah, Huffington Post, but whenever Susan. And

1877
01:45:54,640 --> 01:45:56,920
Speaker 11: it was at that same meeting that the council declined

1878
01:45:56,960 --> 01:45:59,560
Speaker 11: to even vote on a resolution to censure Blevins. The

1879
01:45:59,600 --> 01:46:02,599
Speaker 11: council was putting forth a resolution to say we don't

1880
01:46:02,640 --> 01:46:05,120
Speaker 11: agree with what that guy did. You know, it wasn't

1881
01:46:05,120 --> 01:46:07,959
Speaker 11: like punishing him. It didn't actually strip him of any powers.

1882
01:46:08,360 --> 01:46:11,240
Speaker 11: He didn't do anything except say the rest of us

1883
01:46:11,920 --> 01:46:14,040
Speaker 11: we don't like that. And they could, they wouldn't even

1884
01:46:14,080 --> 01:46:18,080
Speaker 11: vote on it. It got tabled. And at that meeting, Commissioner

1885
01:46:18,120 --> 01:46:21,360
Speaker 11: Derwin Norwood, the only black member of Enid City Council,

1886
01:46:21,760 --> 01:46:25,200
Speaker 11: offered Blevins his forgiveness and gave him a big hug

1887
01:46:25,240 --> 01:46:26,320
Speaker 11: and told him he loved him.

1888
01:46:27,160 --> 01:46:27,360
Speaker 6: Great.

1889
01:46:27,600 --> 01:46:32,120
Speaker 11: Levan's never apologized, right, you can't forgive someone who hasn't apologized.

1890
01:46:32,400 --> 01:46:36,800
Speaker 11: He had never and still has never apologized. And he

1891
01:46:36,920 --> 01:46:39,679
Speaker 11: was pretty clear on where he stands on apology, saying

1892
01:46:39,760 --> 01:46:43,599
Speaker 11: I am not going to apologize for the lies that

1893
01:46:43,680 --> 01:46:47,719
Speaker 11: others tell. Yeah, it was a great meeting. I watched

1894
01:46:47,720 --> 01:46:49,479
Speaker 11: it from home. I had you know, I love I

1895
01:46:49,479 --> 01:46:49,960
Speaker 11: love a meeting.

1896
01:46:50,360 --> 01:46:54,559
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, that's uh. I mean, I don't understand it,

1897
01:46:54,760 --> 01:46:56,000
Speaker 1: but I respect it.

1898
01:46:57,120 --> 01:47:00,479
Speaker 11: So, with their peace offering roundly rejected by an unapologetic Blevins,

1899
01:47:01,280 --> 01:47:04,679
Speaker 11: they moved forward the recall. The Enid Social Justice Committee

1900
01:47:04,680 --> 01:47:06,840
Speaker 11: gathered enough signatures to put it to a vote, and

1901
01:47:06,920 --> 01:47:09,400
Speaker 11: in January, Cheryl Patterson threw her hat into the ring

1902
01:47:09,439 --> 01:47:13,760
Speaker 11: to replace Blevins. And to be clear, this is still Enid, Oklahoma,

1903
01:47:13,800 --> 01:47:17,559
Speaker 11: where sixty percent of voters are registered Republicans. This wasn't

1904
01:47:17,560 --> 01:47:22,439
Speaker 11: some liberal coup. Patterson is also a lifelong Republican candidate

1905
01:47:22,439 --> 01:47:24,760
Speaker 11: formed the week before the election, Patterson was quick to

1906
01:47:24,800 --> 01:47:26,479
Speaker 11: say like right off the bat, the second she opened

1907
01:47:26,520 --> 01:47:29,040
Speaker 11: her mouth, she said, contrary to the rumor, I was

1908
01:47:29,120 --> 01:47:34,439
Speaker 11: not recruited by the Enid Social Justice Committee. And she said,

1909
01:47:34,439 --> 01:47:36,280
Speaker 11: you know, she'd been thinking about running for a while.

1910
01:47:36,400 --> 01:47:39,120
Speaker 11: She loves Enid, but she was pushed to action by

1911
01:47:39,160 --> 01:47:43,000
Speaker 11: her opponent's inability to clearly denounce his past involvement with

1912
01:47:43,000 --> 01:47:45,720
Speaker 11: a white supremacist group. And it is remarkable right to

1913
01:47:45,760 --> 01:47:51,240
Speaker 11: see conservative Republicans in the South saying like that Nazi

1914
01:47:51,280 --> 01:47:52,240
Speaker 11: stuff is too much for me.

1915
01:47:53,960 --> 01:47:58,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and that's like that's actually an important

1916
01:47:58,120 --> 01:48:02,840
Speaker 1: part of turning shit back is getting these people who

1917
01:48:02,840 --> 01:48:06,280
Speaker 1: are otherwise conservative to draw a line and actually hold

1918
01:48:06,280 --> 01:48:09,519
Speaker 1: to it, because it it at least arrests that right

1919
01:48:09,560 --> 01:48:13,160
Speaker 1: word momentum to an extent. And we're just not going

1920
01:48:13,200 --> 01:48:15,080
Speaker 1: to get out of this unless we have some of

1921
01:48:15,120 --> 01:48:16,160
Speaker 1: that right.

1922
01:48:16,160 --> 01:48:18,280
Speaker 11: I'm not living in a you know, in a fantasy

1923
01:48:18,400 --> 01:48:21,559
Speaker 11: land where the city of Enid, Oklahoma is represented by

1924
01:48:21,640 --> 01:48:24,200
Speaker 11: a council of six socialists like that, that's not on

1925
01:48:24,200 --> 01:48:28,080
Speaker 11: the table. I accept that, but at least their Republicans

1926
01:48:28,080 --> 01:48:31,639
Speaker 11: can say, ah, the fourteen words is like not my vibe.

1927
01:48:32,520 --> 01:48:37,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, literally, participating in a white supremacist terrorist action is

1928
01:48:37,720 --> 01:48:40,719
Speaker 1: a line for us, and I'm glad there's a line,

1929
01:48:41,880 --> 01:48:42,280
Speaker 1: so you know.

1930
01:48:42,320 --> 01:48:44,519
Speaker 11: She says she was inspired to run for office because

1931
01:48:44,560 --> 01:48:47,519
Speaker 11: he not because of what he did, but because he

1932
01:48:47,600 --> 01:48:50,559
Speaker 11: couldn't even denounce it, right that. You know, people can

1933
01:48:50,600 --> 01:48:52,880
Speaker 11: grow and change. I pray that his heart moves, but

1934
01:48:52,960 --> 01:48:56,360
Speaker 11: he's unable to even denounce it, and he really does

1935
01:48:56,360 --> 01:48:59,240
Speaker 11: seem incapable. The very first question at that forum the

1936
01:48:59,280 --> 01:49:03,439
Speaker 11: week before the line was about this. Obviously a lot

1937
01:49:03,479 --> 01:49:06,160
Speaker 11: of the questions were, and he gave another non denial. Right,

1938
01:49:06,200 --> 01:49:08,880
Speaker 11: he said, this election is about the next three years

1939
01:49:08,920 --> 01:49:12,559
Speaker 11: of this city, not about organizations that disbanded five years ago.

1940
01:49:13,200 --> 01:49:16,640
Speaker 11: But he went on to say that he would quote gladly,

1941
01:49:16,720 --> 01:49:20,160
Speaker 11: plead guilty to speaking out against what is being done

1942
01:49:20,240 --> 01:49:25,320
Speaker 11: to this country and the anti white hatred in the media.

1943
01:49:25,400 --> 01:49:27,920
Speaker 11: So he tries to talk around the issue, saying, you know,

1944
01:49:28,040 --> 01:49:30,360
Speaker 11: he was just advocating for the same policies that got

1945
01:49:30,360 --> 01:49:33,280
Speaker 11: Donald Trump elected. But it's not like he was on

1946
01:49:33,320 --> 01:49:35,559
Speaker 11: the local Republican committee, right, He wasn't working on a

1947
01:49:35,600 --> 01:49:39,040
Speaker 11: GOP campaign. He was an organizer for a group that

1948
01:49:39,160 --> 01:49:43,400
Speaker 11: supported those policies of the Trump administration explicitly because they

1949
01:49:43,439 --> 01:49:46,040
Speaker 11: believe those policies were a stepping stone towards the full

1950
01:49:46,120 --> 01:49:50,320
Speaker 11: Nazification of American politics. Right, you know, the relationship between

1951
01:49:50,320 --> 01:49:54,800
Speaker 11: those two things troubling concerning. But you can't pretend there's

1952
01:49:54,840 --> 01:49:58,680
Speaker 11: no difference between voting Republican and holding a torch at

1953
01:49:58,720 --> 01:50:02,160
Speaker 11: the Nazi parade. And that's what he's trying to do here.

1954
01:50:02,240 --> 01:50:04,800
Speaker 11: He's trying to blur that lines. You know, I'm just

1955
01:50:04,800 --> 01:50:07,439
Speaker 11: being punished for being a proud conservative. And it's like,

1956
01:50:07,479 --> 01:50:12,240
Speaker 11: which which part right people who's you know people who

1957
01:50:12,240 --> 01:50:13,800
Speaker 11: want free speech, and it's like, well, which word do

1958
01:50:13,800 --> 01:50:16,640
Speaker 11: you want to say? And at no point during this

1959
01:50:16,680 --> 01:50:19,600
Speaker 11: recall campaign, from when they announced it in November to

1960
01:50:19,680 --> 01:50:23,400
Speaker 11: the election two weeks ago now, at no point during

1961
01:50:23,439 --> 01:50:26,680
Speaker 11: this recall campaign did he publicly denounce any of the

1962
01:50:26,680 --> 01:50:30,439
Speaker 11: white supremacists who supported him. Outlets like v Dare, a

1963
01:50:30,479 --> 01:50:33,719
Speaker 11: white nationalist publication run by an English born anti immigration

1964
01:50:33,840 --> 01:50:36,200
Speaker 11: race scientists who lives in a castle in West Virginia,

1965
01:50:36,800 --> 01:50:40,760
Speaker 11: wrote fawning editorials which were promoted by prominent white nationalists,

1966
01:50:40,800 --> 01:50:46,360
Speaker 11: including Identity Europa founder Nathan Dimigo. Fascist telegram channels provided

1967
01:50:46,360 --> 01:50:49,679
Speaker 11: guidance to subscribers about Oklahoma's campaign finance laws, which would

1968
01:50:49,720 --> 01:50:53,439
Speaker 11: allow them to donate to Blevins's campaign anonymously as long

1969
01:50:53,479 --> 01:50:57,759
Speaker 11: as they kept it under fifty dollars. According to reporting

1970
01:50:57,760 --> 01:51:00,439
Speaker 11: by Christmathias and Huntington Post, a man in Tech who

1971
01:51:00,479 --> 01:51:03,320
Speaker 11: runs a business with a known Patriot Front member donated

1972
01:51:03,600 --> 01:51:06,640
Speaker 11: nearly two thousand dollars to the campaign, which made up

1973
01:51:06,680 --> 01:51:09,080
Speaker 11: the bulk of the donated cash. And you might give

1974
01:51:09,160 --> 01:51:11,400
Speaker 11: him the benefit of the doubt and say, well, maybe

1975
01:51:11,439 --> 01:51:13,560
Speaker 11: he didn't know he was being endorsed by some of

1976
01:51:13,600 --> 01:51:16,200
Speaker 11: the largest elements in organized white supremacy in America.

1977
01:51:16,960 --> 01:51:19,519
Speaker 6: Sure, but he did he did know.

1978
01:51:21,040 --> 01:51:23,400
Speaker 11: As a member of the city council, he definitely saw

1979
01:51:23,439 --> 01:51:26,000
Speaker 11: the letters that were addressed to the city Council in

1980
01:51:26,040 --> 01:51:29,559
Speaker 11: support of Blevins from the American Freedom Party, an explicitly

1981
01:51:29,600 --> 01:51:32,879
Speaker 11: white supremacist political party that occasionally runs a Nazi for president.

1982
01:51:34,080 --> 01:51:36,880
Speaker 11: But he said nothing. And when a constituent, father James Neil,

1983
01:51:36,920 --> 01:51:39,280
Speaker 11: asked him directly why his campaign was funded by members

1984
01:51:39,320 --> 01:51:42,719
Speaker 11: of Patriot Front, he told the priest to quote, shut

1985
01:51:42,840 --> 01:51:47,679
Speaker 11: up again. He chose the company of neo Nazis, Holocaust deniers,

1986
01:51:47,680 --> 01:51:51,960
Speaker 11: white supremacists, white nationalists, and ethno state enthusiasts. How can

1987
01:51:52,000 --> 01:51:54,360
Speaker 11: you expect people to believe you're not that guy anymore

1988
01:51:54,400 --> 01:51:57,800
Speaker 11: when you have their public praise, their endorsement, and their

1989
01:51:57,840 --> 01:52:00,960
Speaker 11: money in your pocket. But you know who does not

1990
01:52:01,400 --> 01:52:04,800
Speaker 11: have two thousand dollars in cash from Patriot Front in

1991
01:52:04,880 --> 01:52:05,720
Speaker 11: their pockets?

1992
01:52:06,120 --> 01:52:07,559
Speaker 1: No, I know they keep that shit in the back.

1993
01:52:07,680 --> 01:52:17,400
Speaker 1: I mean, they don't have it. Here's here's our sponsors,

1994
01:52:22,360 --> 01:52:24,519
Speaker 1: and we're back.

1995
01:52:25,720 --> 01:52:28,120
Speaker 11: So on April second, that's two weeks ago.

1996
01:52:28,160 --> 01:52:28,280
Speaker 12: Now.

1997
01:52:28,280 --> 01:52:31,320
Speaker 11: As we're recording, the people of Enid returned to the

1998
01:52:31,360 --> 01:52:34,760
Speaker 11: polls and jud Blevins was voted out of office as

1999
01:52:34,800 --> 01:52:37,160
Speaker 11: Ward one City Commissioner by a vote of eight hundred

2000
01:52:37,160 --> 01:52:40,880
Speaker 11: and twenty nine to five sixty one. And I don't

2001
01:52:40,880 --> 01:52:42,360
Speaker 11: know if you're a math guy. I'm not a math guy.

2002
01:52:42,360 --> 01:52:44,519
Speaker 11: I a calculator. Out for this bad boy. But this

2003
01:52:44,600 --> 01:52:47,439
Speaker 11: turnout was significantly larger than the vote that put him

2004
01:52:47,439 --> 01:52:51,080
Speaker 11: into office. A seventy two percent increase in total votes.

2005
01:52:51,160 --> 01:52:55,040
Speaker 11: That's a lot. Yeah, that's a lot more people who

2006
01:52:55,040 --> 01:52:57,639
Speaker 11: showed up to you know, an off cycle special election.

2007
01:52:59,000 --> 01:53:01,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's specifically weird.

2008
01:53:02,080 --> 01:53:04,439
Speaker 11: And unlike the slim margin of just thirty six votes

2009
01:53:04,439 --> 01:53:06,920
Speaker 11: that won him the twenty twenty three election, he lost

2010
01:53:06,920 --> 01:53:12,240
Speaker 11: the recall by nearly twenty points. That's a spankin. You know,

2011
01:53:12,280 --> 01:53:14,000
Speaker 11: it's hard to chalk a loss like that up to

2012
01:53:14,120 --> 01:53:18,360
Speaker 11: a lunatic fringe, right, That's that's the electorate speaking. But

2013
01:53:18,479 --> 01:53:21,519
Speaker 11: Matthew Gibert, a former State Department employee who lost his

2014
01:53:21,600 --> 01:53:24,240
Speaker 11: job for failing to disclose his active involvement in white

2015
01:53:24,240 --> 01:53:27,960
Speaker 11: supremacist organizing, noted in his telegram channel that while the

2016
01:53:28,000 --> 01:53:32,880
Speaker 11: loss is disappointing, an open white nationalist winning forty percent

2017
01:53:32,920 --> 01:53:37,120
Speaker 11: of the vote is quote, nothing to despair over, and

2018
01:53:37,360 --> 01:53:39,040
Speaker 11: you never got a hand out to the guy who

2019
01:53:39,360 --> 01:53:43,479
Speaker 11: hosts a podcast about the joys of Nazi fatherhood or whatever. Yeah,

2020
01:53:43,520 --> 01:53:45,320
Speaker 11: but the numbers are what they are. You know, he

2021
01:53:45,640 --> 01:53:48,320
Speaker 11: did win forty percent of the vote, and this was

2022
01:53:48,560 --> 01:53:51,839
Speaker 11: after months of very public debate in the national spotlight

2023
01:53:51,840 --> 01:53:55,800
Speaker 11: that made it impossible not to know what the allegations were.

2024
01:53:56,720 --> 01:53:59,760
Speaker 11: And it's not like these were just diehard conservatives who

2025
01:53:59,800 --> 01:54:02,240
Speaker 11: had walk into the voting booth and put their check

2026
01:54:02,280 --> 01:54:04,720
Speaker 11: mark next to wherever the letter R was right in

2027
01:54:04,760 --> 01:54:07,800
Speaker 11: this election, the other name on the ticket was a

2028
01:54:07,800 --> 01:54:10,639
Speaker 11: Republican too, Like, these were people who walked in there

2029
01:54:10,680 --> 01:54:13,920
Speaker 11: and knowingly and intentionally cast their vote for a guy

2030
01:54:13,920 --> 01:54:16,160
Speaker 11: who used to vet new members for a Nazi club.

2031
01:54:17,000 --> 01:54:19,880
Speaker 11: This isn't a fairy tale, it's reality, right. This wasn't

2032
01:54:19,880 --> 01:54:23,800
Speaker 11: an offensive win by progress or the left or what

2033
01:54:23,920 --> 01:54:27,920
Speaker 11: have you. This was an effective defense And I hope

2034
01:54:27,960 --> 01:54:30,080
Speaker 11: conservatives can see a little lesson here, right, Like the

2035
01:54:30,120 --> 01:54:32,920
Speaker 11: story is too often one of ever ratcheting extremism. You

2036
01:54:32,920 --> 01:54:35,320
Speaker 11: can only win if you go further, if you go wilder,

2037
01:54:35,600 --> 01:54:37,120
Speaker 11: if you're appealing to the people who are on the

2038
01:54:37,240 --> 01:54:40,680
Speaker 11: absolute extreme end of what's acceptable to say in the party.

2039
01:54:41,480 --> 01:54:44,560
Speaker 11: But this was a case where a fellow conservative said, Hey,

2040
01:54:44,640 --> 01:54:46,840
Speaker 11: I want to take some books out of the library too.

2041
01:54:47,320 --> 01:54:49,920
Speaker 11: I'm not a liberal, but we just can't be out

2042
01:54:49,920 --> 01:54:54,120
Speaker 11: here saying the fourteen words, right. And I think some

2043
01:54:54,280 --> 01:54:56,600
Speaker 11: of the buzz around this story comes from people in

2044
01:54:56,600 --> 01:55:00,400
Speaker 11: bigger cities or bluer states. I mean, honestly, I'm of

2045
01:55:00,400 --> 01:55:02,800
Speaker 11: this as well, who were shocked that, you know, purple

2046
01:55:02,880 --> 01:55:06,120
Speaker 11: haired liberals and progressive clergy even exist in a place

2047
01:55:06,160 --> 01:55:10,400
Speaker 11: like Enid, Oklahoma. But this red state blue state dichotomy

2048
01:55:11,120 --> 01:55:14,520
Speaker 11: is a myth. Most places are purple, most places are

2049
01:55:14,560 --> 01:55:17,920
Speaker 11: sixty forty. Even in places that reliably one hundred percent

2050
01:55:17,920 --> 01:55:23,080
Speaker 11: of the time vote Republican, there's still a large minority

2051
01:55:23,120 --> 01:55:25,760
Speaker 11: of people who are not represented by that. So even

2052
01:55:25,760 --> 01:55:28,600
Speaker 11: in a place like Enid, which is Republican at the polls,

2053
01:55:29,120 --> 01:55:32,000
Speaker 11: you have a pretty big chunk of the population isn't

2054
01:55:32,040 --> 01:55:35,120
Speaker 11: represented on that two colored map. That doesn't mean they

2055
01:55:35,120 --> 01:55:38,960
Speaker 11: don't care. And when I watched those Enid city council meetings,

2056
01:55:39,520 --> 01:55:40,720
Speaker 11: I saw Charlottesville.

2057
01:55:40,960 --> 01:55:41,160
Speaker 2: Right.

2058
01:55:41,320 --> 01:55:43,280
Speaker 11: I've gone to every city council meeting in Charletsville for

2059
01:55:43,280 --> 01:55:45,560
Speaker 11: the last seven years. Like, I know what it looks

2060
01:55:45,640 --> 01:55:48,160
Speaker 11: like for people in a town that size to show

2061
01:55:48,240 --> 01:55:51,120
Speaker 11: up and say, what the fuck, what the fuck are

2062
01:55:51,160 --> 01:55:51,840
Speaker 11: you doing to us?

2063
01:55:52,560 --> 01:55:52,680
Speaker 7: Right?

2064
01:55:52,800 --> 01:55:55,920
Speaker 11: Yeah, you know it looked like one of our meetings.

2065
01:55:55,920 --> 01:55:56,080
Speaker 6: You know.

2066
01:55:56,080 --> 01:55:59,320
Speaker 11: I saw regular people, moms and students and grandmas and

2067
01:55:59,400 --> 01:56:02,680
Speaker 11: teachers and ladies who bring muffins to the church bake sale.

2068
01:56:02,720 --> 01:56:05,280
Speaker 11: People who know that their town can do better than

2069
01:56:05,320 --> 01:56:07,640
Speaker 11: to be represented by a guy who won't apologize for

2070
01:56:07,680 --> 01:56:11,120
Speaker 11: attending the largest Nazi rally on US soil in our lifetimes.

2071
01:56:11,520 --> 01:56:13,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I feel a lot for the folks who

2072
01:56:13,840 --> 01:56:16,560
Speaker 1: are kind of not represented by either of the two

2073
01:56:16,600 --> 01:56:20,360
Speaker 1: big lines on the political map, and maybe most of

2074
01:56:20,400 --> 01:56:23,040
Speaker 1: the time feel like I don't know what the fuck

2075
01:56:23,120 --> 01:56:25,640
Speaker 1: I can actually do or should do, but I know

2076
01:56:25,760 --> 01:56:28,080
Speaker 1: this Nazi shouldn't be in office.

2077
01:56:29,200 --> 01:56:32,000
Speaker 11: So these were just these were just regular people. These

2078
01:56:32,000 --> 01:56:36,720
Speaker 11: weren't party apperatics or you know, this wasn't the Democrat

2079
01:56:36,760 --> 01:56:38,920
Speaker 11: party doing this, as wasn't the Republican party doing this.

2080
01:56:39,200 --> 01:56:42,520
Speaker 11: These were just people who didn't think that a Nazi

2081
01:56:42,520 --> 01:56:45,520
Speaker 11: should be their city commissioner. And that's I think another

2082
01:56:45,600 --> 01:56:48,240
Speaker 11: myth at play here, right, is that activist is some

2083
01:56:48,280 --> 01:56:50,880
Speaker 11: sort of separate class of person, that there is some

2084
01:56:50,920 --> 01:56:53,240
Speaker 11: portion of the population whose only goal in life is

2085
01:56:53,280 --> 01:56:57,000
Speaker 11: this nebulous, nefarious thing called activism. That you know, it's

2086
01:56:57,000 --> 01:57:00,800
Speaker 11: sort of this boogeyman of the professional troublemaker. And throughout

2087
01:57:00,800 --> 01:57:03,240
Speaker 11: this process, Blevins and his supporters have smeared the group

2088
01:57:03,320 --> 01:57:06,240
Speaker 11: organizing the recall, the Ined Social Justice Committee, is some

2089
01:57:06,360 --> 01:57:09,680
Speaker 11: kind of fringe radical group. They're Antifa, they're freaks, They're

2090
01:57:09,720 --> 01:57:14,360
Speaker 11: not like us. They're coming for our children. His recall

2091
01:57:14,440 --> 01:57:18,120
Speaker 11: campaign website called the petitioners an unhinged group of left

2092
01:57:18,200 --> 01:57:22,240
Speaker 11: wing fringe activists. And the campaign website didn't say what

2093
01:57:22,320 --> 01:57:25,400
Speaker 11: he could do for you. It attacked the petitioners and

2094
01:57:25,440 --> 01:57:28,280
Speaker 11: said this is what they will do to you. And

2095
01:57:28,600 --> 01:57:30,600
Speaker 11: I've seen this in my own city council meetings, right,

2096
01:57:30,640 --> 01:57:33,480
Speaker 11: this sort of bizarre tendency of those in power to

2097
01:57:33,480 --> 01:57:35,480
Speaker 11: write off the people they don't want to hear from

2098
01:57:35,520 --> 01:57:38,840
Speaker 11: as activists. Well, those are people we need to listen to.

2099
01:57:38,880 --> 01:57:41,840
Speaker 11: Those are activists. That's a different kind of person. Anyone

2100
01:57:41,840 --> 01:57:44,560
Speaker 11: who's asking for something they don't want to do, something

2101
01:57:44,600 --> 01:57:48,040
Speaker 11: that's uncomfortable, something that requires them to look inward, or

2102
01:57:48,080 --> 01:57:52,120
Speaker 11: look at the structures they're upholding. They undergo this instant

2103
01:57:52,320 --> 01:57:56,920
Speaker 11: metamorphosis from constituent to activists. This is no longer a

2104
01:57:57,000 --> 01:58:00,280
Speaker 11: voter or a constituent. This is a crazy person. This

2105
01:58:00,360 --> 01:58:02,800
Speaker 11: person isn't your neighbor anymore. They're an activist.

2106
01:58:03,240 --> 01:58:04,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2107
01:58:04,080 --> 01:58:05,400
Speaker 11: I think you know, there are people who wear that

2108
01:58:05,440 --> 01:58:09,160
Speaker 11: mantle proudly, and why shouldn't they. It's a usually positive thing.

2109
01:58:09,960 --> 01:58:11,760
Speaker 11: But the use of the word as some sort of

2110
01:58:11,960 --> 01:58:15,520
Speaker 11: delegitimizing cudgel is so consistent that I think it's worth

2111
01:58:15,720 --> 01:58:23,160
Speaker 11: thinking about when it gets used against the recipient's will. Yeah,

2112
01:58:23,200 --> 01:58:28,280
Speaker 11: and there's no ending to this story, right, because this

2113
01:58:28,440 --> 01:58:31,720
Speaker 11: is never really over. It is happening here, it is

2114
01:58:31,760 --> 01:58:34,520
Speaker 11: happening there. And I don't know what's next for Blevins.

2115
01:58:34,720 --> 01:58:38,280
Speaker 11: Maybe he just smelts quietly back into society and puts

2116
01:58:38,360 --> 01:58:40,840
Speaker 11: roofs on houses. A week after the recall, he filed

2117
01:58:40,840 --> 01:58:43,480
Speaker 11: paperwork to change the name of his dad's contracting business

2118
01:58:43,520 --> 01:58:48,720
Speaker 11: from Invincible Contracting to Great Planes Roofing. The paperwork filed

2119
01:58:49,080 --> 01:58:51,720
Speaker 11: shows that the company is now registered. The company is

2120
01:58:51,720 --> 01:58:54,640
Speaker 11: now registered. His address a house in Enid that he

2121
01:58:54,640 --> 01:58:58,320
Speaker 11: bought last summer, with a VA loan. But now that

2122
01:58:58,400 --> 01:59:00,760
Speaker 11: he's free of the self imposed recons train of running

2123
01:59:00,760 --> 01:59:04,880
Speaker 11: for office, maybe he leans into it and becomes this guy. Right,

2124
01:59:04,920 --> 01:59:07,600
Speaker 11: Maybe he's just the guy that this happens to, and

2125
01:59:07,640 --> 01:59:11,280
Speaker 11: he goes on the cancel culture grievance circuit. Maybe he

2126
01:59:11,320 --> 01:59:14,160
Speaker 11: goes full throttle and tries to get back into movement organizing.

2127
01:59:15,280 --> 01:59:18,240
Speaker 11: I think his failure to come out and really celebrate

2128
01:59:18,280 --> 01:59:20,400
Speaker 11: the movement and really own it and say yes, I

2129
01:59:20,440 --> 01:59:24,400
Speaker 11: said that stuff and it's good. I think that failure,

2130
01:59:25,200 --> 01:59:28,120
Speaker 11: as they would perceive it, would hurt him a little

2131
01:59:28,120 --> 01:59:30,600
Speaker 11: bit if he tries to re enter the movement, but

2132
01:59:30,680 --> 01:59:32,360
Speaker 11: not so badly that he couldn't do it. You know,

2133
01:59:32,360 --> 01:59:35,120
Speaker 11: they're so desperate for new material that they would probably

2134
01:59:35,160 --> 01:59:36,920
Speaker 11: embrace him if he wanted to be the figurehead of

2135
01:59:36,960 --> 01:59:40,480
Speaker 11: the month. Yeah, hopefully he just does the roofing thing though.

2136
01:59:40,920 --> 01:59:43,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, hopefully he does the roofing thing and then

2137
01:59:43,480 --> 01:59:46,960
Speaker 1: the falling off the roof thing, and then you.

2138
01:59:46,960 --> 01:59:49,080
Speaker 11: Know he's that they're doing the work himself. He doesn't

2139
01:59:49,120 --> 01:59:50,960
Speaker 11: even have a contracting license, I checked.

2140
01:59:51,480 --> 01:59:54,320
Speaker 1: I hope he hires someone who is like a very

2141
01:59:54,440 --> 01:59:57,800
Speaker 1: large person and they fall off and are okay because

2142
01:59:57,840 --> 02:00:02,040
Speaker 1: they land on him. That's that's I think where I'm.

2143
02:00:01,880 --> 02:00:04,760
Speaker 11: Going here, And to be clear, that's Robert speaking.

2144
02:00:05,280 --> 02:00:08,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that is, But that is also the official

2145
02:00:08,720 --> 02:00:09,920
Speaker 1: opinion of iHeartMedia.

2146
02:00:11,000 --> 02:00:13,600
Speaker 11: Mean, I don't know that he's he's made any great pronouncements.

2147
02:00:13,600 --> 02:00:15,920
Speaker 11: He hasn't showed up on any Nazi podcast yet. I

2148
02:00:17,320 --> 02:00:20,240
Speaker 11: will put ten dollars on a bet that says he will.

2149
02:00:20,000 --> 02:00:22,440
Speaker 11: He'll be on somebody's podcast by the end of the month.

2150
02:00:22,480 --> 02:00:25,680
Speaker 11: I don't doubt it. But hopefully he just does roofing.

2151
02:00:26,480 --> 02:00:28,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, stick to roofing.

2152
02:00:29,920 --> 02:00:32,320
Speaker 11: As for ENID, you know, they want a battle that

2153
02:00:32,320 --> 02:00:34,840
Speaker 11: they shouldn't have had to fight. It should be kind

2154
02:00:34,840 --> 02:00:36,960
Speaker 11: of a no brainer that we don't elect guys like this.

2155
02:00:37,520 --> 02:00:40,720
Speaker 11: That's becoming less certain every day, Like the fact that

2156
02:00:40,760 --> 02:00:42,800
Speaker 11: there was any question about how the recall might go

2157
02:00:43,080 --> 02:00:45,400
Speaker 11: is concerning. We shouldn't be in a position of wondering

2158
02:00:45,880 --> 02:00:48,080
Speaker 11: will people vote for the guy who won't deny he

2159
02:00:48,120 --> 02:00:51,040
Speaker 11: loves Hitler. But I think we can applaud the tenacity

2160
02:00:51,080 --> 02:00:53,120
Speaker 11: of the folks in Enan who did what was necessary

2161
02:00:53,160 --> 02:00:56,360
Speaker 11: in a place where it wasn't easy. Yeah, you know,

2162
02:00:56,400 --> 02:00:58,400
Speaker 11: and there's there's lessons to be learned here. Go to

2163
02:00:58,440 --> 02:01:00,960
Speaker 11: the meetings, get a seed and sit council chambers. Go

2164
02:01:01,000 --> 02:01:03,200
Speaker 11: to the library board meeting, go to the school board meeting.

2165
02:01:03,600 --> 02:01:06,560
Speaker 11: You don't have to be an activist, whatever that means,

2166
02:01:07,000 --> 02:01:10,000
Speaker 11: but be in the room because nobody's going to change

2167
02:01:10,040 --> 02:01:13,440
Speaker 11: the world on their own. And maybe changing the world

2168
02:01:13,600 --> 02:01:18,480
Speaker 11: isn't even a meaningful objective. I don't know what that means. Yeah,

2169
02:01:18,520 --> 02:01:22,120
Speaker 11: but today, maybe there's something you can do with your

2170
02:01:22,120 --> 02:01:26,600
Speaker 11: neighbors to stop the rising tide in your town. You

2171
02:01:26,640 --> 02:01:30,000
Speaker 11: can't change the weather, but you can put down some sandbags.

2172
02:01:30,640 --> 02:01:33,640
Speaker 11: And there are jud blevins Is everywhere, hiding behind mealy

2173
02:01:33,680 --> 02:01:38,000
Speaker 11: mouthed rhetoric of conservatism and quietly chipping away at your

2174
02:01:38,040 --> 02:01:39,360
Speaker 11: local institutions.

2175
02:01:40,000 --> 02:01:46,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's doable, fighting the juds Blevin of I

2176
02:01:46,600 --> 02:01:52,080
Speaker 1: chose a different way to Pluraliza's name of your wherever

2177
02:01:52,120 --> 02:01:55,080
Speaker 1: you live, your state, your city. Like is doable, and

2178
02:01:55,160 --> 02:01:58,880
Speaker 1: it's doable if you stick to this very simple platform

2179
02:01:58,920 --> 02:02:01,720
Speaker 1: of like, but not a Nazi. Right, we can agree

2180
02:02:01,840 --> 02:02:02,520
Speaker 1: not a Nazi.

2181
02:02:02,640 --> 02:02:07,200
Speaker 11: You know, if conservatives have any if conservatives had any sense,

2182
02:02:07,600 --> 02:02:10,600
Speaker 11: they could retake a lot of ground by saying like

2183
02:02:11,560 --> 02:02:14,680
Speaker 11: you know, we love all the stuff you love, fellow conservatives,

2184
02:02:15,080 --> 02:02:17,960
Speaker 11: but we're not that guy, right, Like, if they had

2185
02:02:18,000 --> 02:02:21,480
Speaker 11: any if they had any pride, they would stop pandering

2186
02:02:21,720 --> 02:02:24,040
Speaker 11: to the lunatic fringe.

2187
02:02:24,280 --> 02:02:26,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it is just kind of looking at how

2188
02:02:27,080 --> 02:02:30,960
Speaker 1: congressional race is shaping up, where it seemed like it

2189
02:02:31,040 --> 02:02:34,320
Speaker 1: should have been pretty easy for them to retake the house.

2190
02:02:34,760 --> 02:02:38,800
Speaker 1: But you know, now they're kind of like flailing a

2191
02:02:38,880 --> 02:02:42,880
Speaker 1: little bit, in part because they keep backing these maniacs

2192
02:02:42,880 --> 02:02:45,960
Speaker 1: who just aren't good. Yeah.

2193
02:02:46,480 --> 02:02:50,080
Speaker 11: I don't really believe that those ideas are popular. They

2194
02:02:50,280 --> 02:02:52,520
Speaker 11: just have fallen into this trap of thinking like this

2195
02:02:52,640 --> 02:02:54,200
Speaker 11: is the only way to win. So I guess I

2196
02:02:54,280 --> 02:02:54,920
Speaker 11: have to do it.

2197
02:02:55,160 --> 02:02:57,400
Speaker 1: But you'll send it not that house anyway, whatever, we'll

2198
02:02:57,400 --> 02:02:57,680
Speaker 1: cut that.

2199
02:02:58,040 --> 02:03:01,360
Speaker 11: Who cares about those guys. Yeah, but you don't have

2200
02:03:01,480 --> 02:03:04,480
Speaker 11: to do it, right, Be the Sheeryl Batterson you want

2201
02:03:04,480 --> 02:03:07,080
Speaker 11: to see in the world. Yeah, and just be a

2202
02:03:07,080 --> 02:03:08,879
Speaker 11: milk toast Republican and be the Nazi.

2203
02:03:09,560 --> 02:03:14,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, at least. I don't know. I'm mixed because, like

2204
02:03:16,320 --> 02:03:19,240
Speaker 1: I do, I do like it when the Republicans fail

2205
02:03:19,960 --> 02:03:22,120
Speaker 1: over much, but I also feel like it's bad to

2206
02:03:22,200 --> 02:03:24,680
Speaker 1: take the bet of like, well, if we hope for

2207
02:03:24,800 --> 02:03:27,720
Speaker 1: more nazis that push people away from the Republicans, maybe

2208
02:03:27,720 --> 02:03:30,600
Speaker 1: it'll work for us in the long run. Statistically that

2209
02:03:30,600 --> 02:03:40,360
Speaker 1: that kind of gamble is real dangerous. Yeah, yeah, that's Enid,

2210
02:03:41,080 --> 02:03:42,600
Speaker 1: that's inened Baby, good working.

2211
02:03:42,880 --> 02:03:46,560
Speaker 11: Congratulations to the end Social Justice Committee. Honestly, I'm yeah,

2212
02:03:47,040 --> 02:03:47,720
Speaker 11: very impressed.

2213
02:03:48,120 --> 02:03:54,520
Speaker 1: You get our coveted Oklahoma City of the Month award,

2214
02:03:55,120 --> 02:03:57,880
Speaker 1: which is confusing because you are very near Oklahoma City.

2215
02:03:57,920 --> 02:04:00,800
Speaker 1: But they shouldn't have named it that. Well, that's all

2216
02:04:00,840 --> 02:04:01,160
Speaker 1: I got.

2217
02:04:01,440 --> 02:04:03,240
Speaker 11: That's all I got. Yeah, I was trying to put

2218
02:04:03,240 --> 02:04:04,960
Speaker 11: a button, trying to put a button on that bad boy.

2219
02:04:05,040 --> 02:04:08,200
Speaker 11: But uh yeah that's Oklahoma baby.

2220
02:04:08,680 --> 02:04:24,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, good for you, Good for Oklahoma.

2221
02:04:25,440 --> 02:04:28,880
Speaker 6: Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. On

2222
02:04:29,040 --> 02:04:32,720
Speaker 6: this show, we try to apply political and cultural analysis

2223
02:04:32,760 --> 02:04:36,320
Speaker 6: towards speculative futurity. What can we learn about the future

2224
02:04:36,400 --> 02:04:39,400
Speaker 6: by looking at how our present relates to our past

2225
02:04:39,760 --> 02:04:41,840
Speaker 6: and now? As we approach a whole decade of a

2226
02:04:41,880 --> 02:04:45,760
Speaker 6: resurgent far right gaining cultural prominence, we're entering a moment

2227
02:04:45,800 --> 02:04:48,160
Speaker 6: in time where pop culture and media is starting to

2228
02:04:48,240 --> 02:04:52,160
Speaker 6: catch up to the current political zeitgeist. Our media landscape

2229
02:04:52,200 --> 02:04:56,520
Speaker 6: is inundated with depictions of unreality, political extremism, collapse, and

2230
02:04:56,600 --> 02:05:00,840
Speaker 6: rising civil tensions. Some of these succeed more than but

2231
02:05:01,000 --> 02:05:05,440
Speaker 6: most are still deeply neoliberal in their depictions. The Obama

2232
02:05:05,480 --> 02:05:08,200
Speaker 6: produced a Netflix movie from last year, Leave the World Behind,

2233
02:05:08,600 --> 02:05:12,000
Speaker 6: was a speculative look at a collapse orchestrated to jumpstart

2234
02:05:12,000 --> 02:05:15,880
Speaker 6: a second American Civil war. Alex Garland's voyeuristic civil war

2235
02:05:15,920 --> 02:05:19,640
Speaker 6: movie just released, which sort of gestures at politics with

2236
02:05:20,160 --> 02:05:24,960
Speaker 6: offhand mentions of portlaind maoists and the Antifa massacre. But

2237
02:05:25,160 --> 02:05:27,960
Speaker 6: as a movie, it completely fails to understand the moment

2238
02:05:28,000 --> 02:05:30,960
Speaker 6: we currently occupy, and I believe is even more out

2239
02:05:30,960 --> 02:05:34,040
Speaker 6: of touch than the Obama collapse movie, but we're not

2240
02:05:34,040 --> 02:05:36,320
Speaker 6: talking about that today. For my thoughts on that, you

2241
02:05:36,320 --> 02:05:38,600
Speaker 6: can look up my review on Letterboxed and refer to

2242
02:05:38,640 --> 02:05:41,200
Speaker 6: the reviews I liked for a more robust critique of

2243
02:05:41,240 --> 02:05:45,480
Speaker 6: Garland's deeply troubling depiction of quote unquote neutral war journalism

2244
02:05:45,800 --> 02:05:50,560
Speaker 6: as uncritically virtuous. Instead, this episode will be turning to

2245
02:05:50,600 --> 02:05:53,920
Speaker 6: a depiction of modern da extremism that I'm not sure

2246
02:05:54,000 --> 02:06:00,160
Speaker 6: is better. It's still deeply neoliberal and honestly more overtly copaganda,

2247
02:06:00,240 --> 02:06:03,160
Speaker 6: but one that I still find more interesting and I

2248
02:06:03,200 --> 02:06:08,040
Speaker 6: believe does understand our political moment much better than Alex

2249
02:06:08,160 --> 02:06:10,720
Speaker 6: Garland does, who comes off as less and less intelligent

2250
02:06:10,760 --> 02:06:14,160
Speaker 6: in every single interview he does. Last month, the television

2251
02:06:14,240 --> 02:06:18,560
Speaker 6: show Law and Order did an episode focusing on Robert

2252
02:06:18,640 --> 02:06:23,120
Speaker 6: Rundo's far right fitness groups, the White supremacist Active Clubs.

2253
02:06:23,520 --> 02:06:26,480
Speaker 6: To discuss, I am joined by longtime far right researcher

2254
02:06:26,680 --> 02:06:27,400
Speaker 6: Molly Conger.

2255
02:06:27,560 --> 02:06:30,320
Speaker 11: Hello, Molly, Hey, thanks for having me on. And you

2256
02:06:30,360 --> 02:06:32,839
Speaker 11: probably didn't know this about me. I am a secret

2257
02:06:32,920 --> 02:06:35,880
Speaker 11: enjoyer of police procedurals, so I've actually watched a lot

2258
02:06:35,920 --> 02:06:36,600
Speaker 11: of Law and Order.

2259
02:06:37,200 --> 02:06:39,320
Speaker 6: I have never seen a single episode of Law and

2260
02:06:39,400 --> 02:06:44,280
Speaker 6: Order until this week, so I was really inundated. I

2261
02:06:44,320 --> 02:06:47,720
Speaker 6: don't know. I watch a lot of kind of troubling media, though,

2262
02:06:48,040 --> 02:06:52,400
Speaker 6: and media that tries to comment on current political extremism,

2263
02:06:52,640 --> 02:06:54,920
Speaker 6: and often when I talk with my friends about my

2264
02:06:55,040 --> 02:06:59,040
Speaker 6: interest in viewing things like this episode, I get confused

2265
02:06:59,200 --> 02:07:04,680
Speaker 6: or even adversarial reactions, and I do truly understand their hesitations.

2266
02:07:04,920 --> 02:07:07,920
Speaker 6: Pop culture media like this is often very sensational, turning

2267
02:07:08,080 --> 02:07:11,160
Speaker 6: very real pain trauma and death caused by the far

2268
02:07:11,280 --> 02:07:14,840
Speaker 6: right into this form of kind of mindless entertainment and

2269
02:07:15,040 --> 02:07:18,680
Speaker 6: often reifying the role of good government and good cops

2270
02:07:19,000 --> 02:07:23,440
Speaker 6: to maintain order against racist insurgents, even though more and

2271
02:07:23,520 --> 02:07:25,880
Speaker 6: more of their ilk begin to occupy public office and

2272
02:07:26,000 --> 02:07:30,640
Speaker 6: become cops themselves. But politics and culture are hand in hand.

2273
02:07:31,360 --> 02:07:33,720
Speaker 6: Lots of what became the al Right grew out of

2274
02:07:33,760 --> 02:07:36,400
Speaker 6: gamer gait, and I think there is a real use

2275
02:07:36,440 --> 02:07:39,920
Speaker 6: in understanding how the political activities of fascists and anti

2276
02:07:39,920 --> 02:07:43,680
Speaker 6: fascists are depicted in mass media. I believe there is

2277
02:07:43,720 --> 02:07:46,600
Speaker 6: some value in knowing what NBC and the writers of

2278
02:07:46,680 --> 02:07:49,880
Speaker 6: Law and Order think in Active club is as like

2279
02:07:49,920 --> 02:07:52,880
Speaker 6: a sort of cultural litmus test, and also to see

2280
02:07:52,920 --> 02:07:55,680
Speaker 6: how well people like us are doing in trying to

2281
02:07:55,840 --> 02:07:59,240
Speaker 6: educate about these types of groups. But I totally understand

2282
02:07:59,280 --> 02:08:02,000
Speaker 6: that not everyone wants to suffer through a forty minute

2283
02:08:02,080 --> 02:08:06,160
Speaker 6: Lawn Order episode about cops beating the Nazis, So instead

2284
02:08:06,320 --> 02:08:09,960
Speaker 6: I will watch it for you and talk about exactly

2285
02:08:10,360 --> 02:08:13,840
Speaker 6: how they depicted this with Molly here today. So I

2286
02:08:13,880 --> 02:08:15,360
Speaker 6: think the most efficient way for me to do this

2287
02:08:15,720 --> 02:08:18,360
Speaker 6: is to kind of give a recap of the episode

2288
02:08:18,720 --> 02:08:21,080
Speaker 6: and as I start going through it, we will discuss

2289
02:08:21,120 --> 02:08:23,480
Speaker 6: a certain points. I can't just summarize all of it

2290
02:08:23,720 --> 02:08:25,520
Speaker 6: in like a short paragraph. I mean I could. I

2291
02:08:25,560 --> 02:08:27,200
Speaker 6: just think that would miss out on a lot of stuff.

2292
02:08:27,280 --> 02:08:29,680
Speaker 6: So instead, we're going to go through the episode and

2293
02:08:29,720 --> 02:08:34,800
Speaker 6: comment as things happen. And this episode ends up being

2294
02:08:35,160 --> 02:08:38,080
Speaker 6: about a lot more than just an active club. It's

2295
02:08:38,160 --> 02:08:40,560
Speaker 6: actually pulling from a few other influences that we will

2296
02:08:40,600 --> 02:08:45,040
Speaker 6: talk about probably towards the end. Anyway, that felt sloppy

2297
02:08:45,080 --> 02:08:45,280
Speaker 6: to me.

2298
02:08:45,320 --> 02:08:48,840
Speaker 11: I feel like they try to tackle several specific like

2299
02:08:49,400 --> 02:08:50,920
Speaker 11: I don't know how familiar are with with the Law

2300
02:08:50,920 --> 02:08:53,440
Speaker 11: and Order franchise, but they call these episodes the ripped

2301
02:08:53,440 --> 02:08:56,320
Speaker 11: from the headlines episodes, right where they take a real life,

2302
02:08:56,400 --> 02:08:59,800
Speaker 11: high profile case and write an episode about it. But

2303
02:09:00,080 --> 02:09:03,040
Speaker 11: they tried to combine several elements that I felt didn't

2304
02:09:03,240 --> 02:09:06,120
Speaker 11: blend well, and it deep the more material to work

2305
02:09:06,120 --> 02:09:07,920
Speaker 11: with than they were able to address, and so it

2306
02:09:08,000 --> 02:09:11,080
Speaker 11: just felt I just felt unresolved to me.

2307
02:09:11,800 --> 02:09:14,480
Speaker 6: I mean, I assume lots of these police procedurals are

2308
02:09:14,600 --> 02:09:16,960
Speaker 6: kind of undercooked, as like pieces of art.

2309
02:09:18,040 --> 02:09:21,240
Speaker 11: I mean, the Dick Wolf extended universe is churning out

2310
02:09:21,360 --> 02:09:24,920
Speaker 11: so much content that like, I don't know how they're

2311
02:09:24,920 --> 02:09:27,480
Speaker 11: still doing it. I mean, Olivia Benson has been on

2312
02:09:27,560 --> 02:09:29,040
Speaker 11: television since I was a child.

2313
02:09:30,520 --> 02:09:34,839
Speaker 6: So let's get into the actual episode. The cold open begins.

2314
02:09:35,000 --> 02:09:38,040
Speaker 6: It's night in New York City. A nervous looking white

2315
02:09:38,080 --> 02:09:41,200
Speaker 6: woman enters a subway station, and she's startled by a

2316
02:09:41,240 --> 02:09:45,720
Speaker 6: sleeping homeless man. As the subway approaches, eerie music starts playing.

2317
02:09:46,400 --> 02:09:48,760
Speaker 6: The anxious woman walks onto the subway and a black

2318
02:09:48,800 --> 02:09:51,280
Speaker 6: man cat calls her as a group of other men

2319
02:09:51,400 --> 02:09:54,080
Speaker 6: kind of join in. The woman quickly switches to a

2320
02:09:54,120 --> 02:09:57,040
Speaker 6: more empty subway car, where she then bumps into another

2321
02:09:57,080 --> 02:09:59,760
Speaker 6: black man whose eyes look kind of vacant and has

2322
02:09:59,800 --> 02:10:03,400
Speaker 6: make weird grunting noises, and then the man appears to

2323
02:10:03,520 --> 02:10:07,280
Speaker 6: lunge towards the woman. We cut to crime scene tape

2324
02:10:07,320 --> 02:10:11,040
Speaker 6: stretched across the subway station. Two police detectives to enter

2325
02:10:11,080 --> 02:10:13,720
Speaker 6: the subway car, where a dead body lies on the ground.

2326
02:10:14,480 --> 02:10:17,240
Speaker 6: But it's not the scared white woman. It's the oddly

2327
02:10:17,400 --> 02:10:19,840
Speaker 6: grunting black man who appears to have been strangled to

2328
02:10:19,920 --> 02:10:23,440
Speaker 6: death with no apparent witnesses. He's identified as twenty four

2329
02:10:23,560 --> 02:10:26,280
Speaker 6: year old Ellis Joyner, a stand up comedian who A

2330
02:10:26,320 --> 02:10:29,600
Speaker 6: detective says, quote came from down South, love to talk

2331
02:10:29,600 --> 02:10:33,040
Speaker 6: about how much he loved New York. The other detective remarks,

2332
02:10:33,480 --> 02:10:36,400
Speaker 6: great place to live, not such a great place to die.

2333
02:10:36,800 --> 02:10:41,280
Speaker 6: Cut the title screen with music that I assume has

2334
02:10:41,280 --> 02:10:43,320
Speaker 6: not been updated in like thirty years, because the actual

2335
02:10:45,400 --> 02:10:48,280
Speaker 6: it sounds so so nineties.

2336
02:10:49,440 --> 02:10:50,360
Speaker 11: They can't change it.

2337
02:10:50,400 --> 02:10:50,680
Speaker 6: Now.

2338
02:10:51,480 --> 02:10:55,680
Speaker 11: There are thousands of episodes of the show Garrison, It's history.

2339
02:10:55,640 --> 02:10:57,880
Speaker 6: So already with the cold open, we have like, ooh,

2340
02:10:57,960 --> 02:11:01,560
Speaker 6: the dangerous subway, scary homeless people, this poor white woman.

2341
02:11:02,080 --> 02:11:03,600
Speaker 6: A lot of stuff's being thrown at.

2342
02:11:03,560 --> 02:11:06,720
Speaker 11: Us, right and obviously playing on the idea that like, oh,

2343
02:11:06,760 --> 02:11:08,440
Speaker 11: the white woman is going to be under that, but

2344
02:11:08,600 --> 02:11:10,280
Speaker 11: that sheet, like that's going to be her body.

2345
02:11:10,400 --> 02:11:13,720
Speaker 6: Totally totally So, as we returned to the episode, a

2346
02:11:13,760 --> 02:11:16,240
Speaker 6: forensic pathologist says the man died after being put in

2347
02:11:16,280 --> 02:11:19,120
Speaker 6: a quote unquote sleeper hold, which cut off oxygen to

2348
02:11:19,160 --> 02:11:22,800
Speaker 6: his brain. His medical records reveal he also had severe asthma,

2349
02:11:22,960 --> 02:11:25,840
Speaker 6: and his hyperinflated lungs indicate he was currently suffering an

2350
02:11:25,880 --> 02:11:28,760
Speaker 6: asthma attack when he was killed by the lethal chokehold.

2351
02:11:29,400 --> 02:11:31,760
Speaker 6: In the fifty minute window for a time of death.

2352
02:11:31,840 --> 02:11:35,320
Speaker 6: The train passed through six subway stations, four of which

2353
02:11:35,440 --> 02:11:37,240
Speaker 6: all had broken cameras.

2354
02:11:38,120 --> 02:11:40,520
Speaker 11: Which is supposed to remind the viewer that we really

2355
02:11:40,560 --> 02:11:42,440
Speaker 11: need to fund the subway cops.

2356
02:11:42,960 --> 02:11:45,440
Speaker 6: Correct. A lot of this episode is about how subway

2357
02:11:46,240 --> 02:11:50,200
Speaker 6: surveillance is under equipped to deal with crime. And we

2358
02:11:50,240 --> 02:11:52,000
Speaker 6: could probably fix a lot of problems if there was

2359
02:11:52,040 --> 02:11:54,240
Speaker 6: more security cameras in the subway.

2360
02:11:54,280 --> 02:11:56,120
Speaker 11: Or just one hundred cops. What if they put one

2361
02:11:56,200 --> 02:11:57,160
Speaker 11: hundred cops on there.

2362
02:11:57,120 --> 02:12:00,880
Speaker 6: Sure, or more cops and like to my, the subway

2363
02:12:00,920 --> 02:12:03,800
Speaker 6: in New York City historically has not had security cameras

2364
02:12:03,920 --> 02:12:06,960
Speaker 6: inside the actual train cars, though they are expected to

2365
02:12:07,080 --> 02:12:11,240
Speaker 6: by twenty twenty six. But like the light rail in Portland,

2366
02:12:11,720 --> 02:12:14,200
Speaker 6: the kind of like not not subway, but like the

2367
02:12:14,280 --> 02:12:18,160
Speaker 6: Public Transits train in Atlanta, they all have cameras inside

2368
02:12:18,200 --> 02:12:20,840
Speaker 6: the actual train cars. I was surprised that the subway

2369
02:12:20,880 --> 02:12:23,120
Speaker 6: in New York did not. I just I just never

2370
02:12:23,160 --> 02:12:27,600
Speaker 6: knew that. Anyway. Back to law and order, Ellis Joiner's

2371
02:12:27,600 --> 02:12:29,840
Speaker 6: credit card identified the station that he got on at,

2372
02:12:29,920 --> 02:12:34,400
Speaker 6: which also had broken cameras, but police pulled streetcam footage

2373
02:12:34,400 --> 02:12:36,800
Speaker 6: from a few blocks away, which shows Joyner getting into

2374
02:12:36,840 --> 02:12:40,320
Speaker 6: a fight with another comedian where Joyner got punched. The

2375
02:12:40,360 --> 02:12:43,800
Speaker 6: other man is recognized as Malcolm Paige, a stand up

2376
02:12:43,800 --> 02:12:46,720
Speaker 6: who quote used to open for Chappelle back in the

2377
02:12:46,800 --> 02:12:52,080
Speaker 6: day unquote, so already setting up something fantastic. The detectives

2378
02:12:52,120 --> 02:12:54,960
Speaker 6: interview Page and show him social media footage of Joiners

2379
02:12:54,960 --> 02:12:56,800
Speaker 6: is set from last night, making fun of Page for

2380
02:12:56,880 --> 02:13:02,000
Speaker 6: being old and irrelevant. Page says that verbally attacked him

2381
02:13:02,320 --> 02:13:05,800
Speaker 6: because Joiner quote got his panties in a twist unquote

2382
02:13:05,920 --> 02:13:09,400
Speaker 6: over some of Page's jokes quote hit too close to

2383
02:13:09,480 --> 02:13:14,560
Speaker 6: home for fancy boy unquote. And when Page says fancy boy,

2384
02:13:14,640 --> 02:13:17,919
Speaker 6: he does this little shaky hand thing, which the detective

2385
02:13:17,960 --> 02:13:21,160
Speaker 6: asks if that's supposed to imply that Joyner is gay,

2386
02:13:21,280 --> 02:13:23,600
Speaker 6: which the older comedian says, yes.

2387
02:13:24,520 --> 02:13:27,320
Speaker 11: I mean I've seen this sort of like limpressed hand

2388
02:13:27,440 --> 02:13:27,840
Speaker 11: movie this.

2389
02:13:29,560 --> 02:13:32,000
Speaker 6: Did it did? It was just like a weird like

2390
02:13:32,080 --> 02:13:34,840
Speaker 6: shaking like hand, like fancy you.

2391
02:13:34,760 --> 02:13:36,600
Speaker 11: Sort of shake your hand side to side when you

2392
02:13:36,640 --> 02:13:39,920
Speaker 11: mean like kind of or maybe exactly exactly hand movie.

2393
02:13:40,120 --> 02:13:42,680
Speaker 11: It was your homophobic gestures, right, it was.

2394
02:13:42,760 --> 02:13:45,680
Speaker 6: It was really weird. I found this whole interaction kind

2395
02:13:45,680 --> 02:13:46,680
Speaker 6: of bizarre.

2396
02:13:46,760 --> 02:13:49,080
Speaker 11: And unnecessary, like you write in this kind of red

2397
02:13:49,080 --> 02:13:52,280
Speaker 11: herring when you're trying to fill time. But they had plenty,

2398
02:13:52,320 --> 02:13:54,040
Speaker 11: they had plenty of script. They didn't need this.

2399
02:13:54,760 --> 02:13:57,520
Speaker 6: This episode's so focused on different forms of racism, so

2400
02:13:57,600 --> 02:14:00,360
Speaker 6: much adding in this like weird gay subplot to doesn't

2401
02:14:00,360 --> 02:14:02,600
Speaker 6: It doesn't end up going anywhere, and it's just kind

2402
02:14:02,600 --> 02:14:06,240
Speaker 6: of bizarre. So anyway, this basically, this older comedian was

2403
02:14:06,240 --> 02:14:09,520
Speaker 6: telling homophobic jokes. Joiner then made fun of him on stage,

2404
02:14:09,840 --> 02:14:13,960
Speaker 6: and this older comedian Page assaulted him outside. Page then

2405
02:14:14,040 --> 02:14:17,360
Speaker 6: left in an uber and Joiner ran off with his boyfriend, who,

2406
02:14:17,440 --> 02:14:21,720
Speaker 6: according to Paige, weren't getting along either. So there's some

2407
02:14:21,800 --> 02:14:26,080
Speaker 6: kind of like like God, a new suspect arises exactly exactly.

2408
02:14:26,320 --> 02:14:30,240
Speaker 6: So police look through Joiner's emails and texts in the

2409
02:14:30,320 --> 02:14:35,640
Speaker 6: cloud quote unquote, and can't find any record of a boyfriend,

2410
02:14:35,760 --> 02:14:38,640
Speaker 6: making detectives surmise that he must have been in the closet,

2411
02:14:38,920 --> 02:14:42,880
Speaker 6: which is a baffling thing to surmise. Cops then contact

2412
02:14:43,000 --> 02:14:47,400
Speaker 6: quote the Traveler app. That's that's Traveler spelled.

2413
02:14:47,280 --> 02:14:50,960
Speaker 11: T r a v l R. You have to cut

2414
02:14:50,960 --> 02:14:52,880
Speaker 11: out a vowel or it's not an apple.

2415
02:14:53,840 --> 02:14:59,880
Speaker 6: So legally not Grinder gives NYPD complete access to Joiner's account, and.

2416
02:15:00,080 --> 02:15:03,640
Speaker 11: I'm sorry, Like, are gay male sex apps usually like

2417
02:15:03,720 --> 02:15:06,960
Speaker 11: pink and purple. The color scheme is pink and purple.

2418
02:15:07,040 --> 02:15:10,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, not my experience, but yeah, I think it's also

2419
02:15:10,240 --> 02:15:14,520
Speaker 6: a referenced to like like travelers, like fellow travelers, right right,

2420
02:15:14,720 --> 02:15:17,000
Speaker 6: it was obviously supposed to be Grinder, but it's it's

2421
02:15:17,040 --> 02:15:21,480
Speaker 6: just Grinder. It doesn't matter, but cop legally not Grinder

2422
02:15:21,520 --> 02:15:24,720
Speaker 6: gives NYPD full access to Joiner's account, which shows he's

2423
02:15:24,760 --> 02:15:28,320
Speaker 6: dating a guy named Michael Zain. And this, this whole

2424
02:15:28,320 --> 02:15:31,080
Speaker 6: thing is, this whole thing's so wild because if you're

2425
02:15:31,160 --> 02:15:34,440
Speaker 6: dating someone, you should not be primarily communicating through Grinder.

2426
02:15:35,040 --> 02:15:38,000
Speaker 11: And he said later they've been dating for six six months,

2427
02:15:38,000 --> 02:15:41,520
Speaker 11: six months, They've never texted, they're just using Grinder to chat.

2428
02:15:41,880 --> 02:15:44,440
Speaker 6: Whenever you go on Grinder, the goal is to get

2429
02:15:44,440 --> 02:15:48,520
Speaker 6: off of Grinder as soon as possible. Why why would

2430
02:15:48,560 --> 02:15:52,880
Speaker 6: privately texting each other instead out you as gay anymore

2431
02:15:52,960 --> 02:15:55,360
Speaker 6: than having an identifiable Grinder profile?

2432
02:15:55,800 --> 02:15:57,720
Speaker 11: Do I feel like having Grinder up on your phone

2433
02:15:57,720 --> 02:15:59,920
Speaker 11: and it has a very distinctive like text tone, Like

2434
02:16:00,360 --> 02:16:02,360
Speaker 11: that's way more likely to out you dog just text

2435
02:16:02,400 --> 02:16:03,280
Speaker 11: regular exactly.

2436
02:16:03,560 --> 02:16:06,840
Speaker 6: It makes no sense anyway. The traveler messages between Joyner

2437
02:16:06,880 --> 02:16:10,440
Speaker 6: and Michael Zain indicate a sort of ongoing fight or argument.

2438
02:16:10,800 --> 02:16:15,000
Speaker 6: Now Zain has a prior conviction for aggravated assault last year.

2439
02:16:15,120 --> 02:16:17,280
Speaker 11: They didn't actually, so I went back and I went

2440
02:16:17,320 --> 02:16:19,600
Speaker 11: back and double check this because I have some beef.

2441
02:16:19,680 --> 02:16:20,240
Speaker 6: He doesn't have a care.

2442
02:16:20,600 --> 02:16:23,880
Speaker 11: They said he was arrested for assault last year.

2443
02:16:23,920 --> 02:16:26,280
Speaker 6: He was just charged. He wasn't connected at my mistake, yes,

2444
02:16:26,400 --> 02:16:28,320
Speaker 6: but also the episode does not make that very clear.

2445
02:16:28,960 --> 02:16:30,800
Speaker 11: No, because I have a reason. I went back and

2446
02:16:30,840 --> 02:16:32,040
Speaker 11: checked because it makes no sense.

2447
02:16:32,240 --> 02:16:35,480
Speaker 6: So, yeah, his boyfriend was charged last year for aggravated assault.

2448
02:16:35,680 --> 02:16:38,119
Speaker 6: So the detectives pay him a visit because they think

2449
02:16:38,120 --> 02:16:39,080
Speaker 6: he's like a suspect.

2450
02:16:39,200 --> 02:16:39,320
Speaker 7: Right.

2451
02:16:40,240 --> 02:16:42,600
Speaker 6: Zain says that he didn't kill Joyner, he loved him,

2452
02:16:42,600 --> 02:16:44,520
Speaker 6: and that their fight on the night of the murder

2453
02:16:44,600 --> 02:16:47,279
Speaker 6: was about to Joiner's own self hatred and Zay believing

2454
02:16:47,320 --> 02:16:49,080
Speaker 6: that things would be better if they could just live

2455
02:16:49,160 --> 02:16:51,800
Speaker 6: openly as a couple, but Joyner was concerned that it

2456
02:16:51,800 --> 02:16:55,360
Speaker 6: would threaten his comedy career. Zain maintained nothing ever got

2457
02:16:55,400 --> 02:16:58,400
Speaker 6: physical between each other and explained that his assault charge

2458
02:16:58,680 --> 02:17:01,600
Speaker 6: was from trying to break up a bar fight, but

2459
02:17:01,640 --> 02:17:04,840
Speaker 6: when the cops arrived, they targeted Zane because he was black,

2460
02:17:05,160 --> 02:17:09,160
Speaker 6: to which the two NYPD detectives nod solemnly.

2461
02:17:10,720 --> 02:17:12,960
Speaker 11: They're like, yeah, that does sound like something we would do.

2462
02:17:13,200 --> 02:17:16,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, other cops are racist, but not us. They're like okay.

2463
02:17:18,000 --> 02:17:20,600
Speaker 6: Zain claims that Joyner wanted time alone, so he got

2464
02:17:20,600 --> 02:17:23,000
Speaker 6: off the train a few stops before and went home,

2465
02:17:23,879 --> 02:17:26,440
Speaker 6: but mentions that there was a white guy with short

2466
02:17:26,480 --> 02:17:29,840
Speaker 6: brown hair, bright yellow sneakers, and a hoodie with some

2467
02:17:29,959 --> 02:17:32,959
Speaker 6: kind of symbol on the back who was looking weirdly

2468
02:17:33,040 --> 02:17:37,120
Speaker 6: at him and Joiner. Security camera footage shows someone matching

2469
02:17:37,120 --> 02:17:40,720
Speaker 6: that description exiting the train car one stop before Joyner's

2470
02:17:40,760 --> 02:17:44,720
Speaker 6: body was found, and one of the detectives recognizes the symbol.

2471
02:17:45,760 --> 02:17:49,720
Speaker 6: We will learn more about this mysterious hoodie, sneaker, and

2472
02:17:50,240 --> 02:18:04,880
Speaker 6: symbol after this adbreak. So I first, I just want

2473
02:18:04,879 --> 02:18:08,520
Speaker 6: to describe what this symbol is. It's it is. It's

2474
02:18:08,520 --> 02:18:15,080
Speaker 6: this octagon with spiky corners and like two k's facing

2475
02:18:15,120 --> 02:18:17,960
Speaker 6: like like like one facing backwards. Yeah, one one facing

2476
02:18:17,959 --> 02:18:20,959
Speaker 6: forward with one facing backwards, but smushed together and the

2477
02:18:21,080 --> 02:18:24,400
Speaker 6: shared middle pillar is like an arrow pointing upwards.

2478
02:18:25,720 --> 02:18:26,720
Speaker 11: It looked like nothing to me.

2479
02:18:26,959 --> 02:18:30,680
Speaker 6: They tried to desire something that looked vaguely racist, but

2480
02:18:30,720 --> 02:18:33,200
Speaker 6: it's just not. It just it just looks dumb.

2481
02:18:34,280 --> 02:18:36,000
Speaker 11: It looks like I don't like a tech company logo

2482
02:18:36,080 --> 02:18:39,280
Speaker 11: or something like. Yeah, it is not evoke anything for me.

2483
02:18:39,560 --> 02:18:41,680
Speaker 6: No, it's it's not good. They're trying to make it

2484
02:18:41,720 --> 02:18:43,920
Speaker 6: scary with like lots of like different like angles, but

2485
02:18:43,959 --> 02:18:46,480
Speaker 6: like it's it's it's not. It's not scary anyway. The

2486
02:18:46,520 --> 02:18:49,800
Speaker 6: detectives arrive at an MMA gym in Chelsea called the

2487
02:18:49,959 --> 02:18:53,039
Speaker 6: Kovak Academy. It opened about a year ago and they've

2488
02:18:53,040 --> 02:18:56,680
Speaker 6: been peppering the neighborhood with flyers. Well, that sounds familiar,

2489
02:18:56,840 --> 02:19:01,440
Speaker 6: extremely accurate. The cops are graded by jacked staff member

2490
02:19:01,480 --> 02:19:04,120
Speaker 6: with a shaved head, and they asked to speak with

2491
02:19:04,160 --> 02:19:07,120
Speaker 6: the owner, and this skinhead employee says that they just

2492
02:19:07,160 --> 02:19:09,520
Speaker 6: missed him. But there's a picture on the wall of

2493
02:19:09,560 --> 02:19:11,760
Speaker 6: the owner holding a trophy and he's wearing the exact

2494
02:19:11,760 --> 02:19:15,400
Speaker 6: outfit in the subway security footage. The detectives are told

2495
02:19:15,440 --> 02:19:18,120
Speaker 6: that he was getting a cab to the airport. Now

2496
02:19:18,320 --> 02:19:20,080
Speaker 6: thought I thought this was gonna be like a classic

2497
02:19:20,160 --> 02:19:24,960
Speaker 6: Rundo move right, do some crimes flee the country, But

2498
02:19:25,280 --> 02:19:28,080
Speaker 6: allegedly he was actually flying to Toronto, which actually will

2499
02:19:28,120 --> 02:19:31,000
Speaker 6: kind of get explained later on. Cops are outside to

2500
02:19:31,000 --> 02:19:33,000
Speaker 6: see if they can spot him before he leaves, and

2501
02:19:33,040 --> 02:19:35,000
Speaker 6: they see a man in yellow sneakers and a logo

2502
02:19:35,120 --> 02:19:38,320
Speaker 6: emblazoned hoodie walking towards a cab. They sprint tap him

2503
02:19:38,360 --> 02:19:41,400
Speaker 6: on the shoulder. The MMA guy throws detectives against the car,

2504
02:19:41,520 --> 02:19:44,520
Speaker 6: starts fighting, not realizing their NYPD because he has like

2505
02:19:44,560 --> 02:19:48,040
Speaker 6: earbuds on. Cops pull their guns, then he surrenders. The

2506
02:19:48,080 --> 02:19:52,560
Speaker 6: owner of the gym is named Domino Dominal. It's a

2507
02:19:52,600 --> 02:19:53,320
Speaker 6: weird it's weird name.

2508
02:19:53,440 --> 02:19:55,640
Speaker 11: I think Dominall it's like and I think it's an

2509
02:19:55,640 --> 02:19:56,240
Speaker 11: Irish name.

2510
02:19:56,360 --> 02:19:56,920
Speaker 5: Dominall.

2511
02:19:57,120 --> 02:20:01,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, dominoll Kovak. He has four previous convictions for assault,

2512
02:20:01,320 --> 02:20:04,520
Speaker 6: all against black victims, with two charged as hate crimes.

2513
02:20:05,000 --> 02:20:07,480
Speaker 6: A detective notes that Kovak has a tattoo on his

2514
02:20:07,600 --> 02:20:11,440
Speaker 6: right arm of laced up combat boots with the number

2515
02:20:11,560 --> 02:20:15,920
Speaker 6: eighty eight, which the detective calls a white nationalist symbol.

2516
02:20:16,879 --> 02:20:23,320
Speaker 11: Okay, okay, here, I looked, I looked hard. I looked

2517
02:20:23,360 --> 02:20:26,920
Speaker 11: hard through a lot of photographs of Nazi tattoos, and

2518
02:20:27,560 --> 02:20:30,720
Speaker 11: the boot tattoo is not common and you only see

2519
02:20:30,760 --> 02:20:31,920
Speaker 11: it in skinhead culture.

2520
02:20:32,600 --> 02:20:34,640
Speaker 6: And this guy's not a skinhead. The actual owner of

2521
02:20:34,640 --> 02:20:36,400
Speaker 6: the gym does not appear to be a skinhead. He

2522
02:20:36,440 --> 02:20:38,800
Speaker 6: has like a big beard. He has like long brown,

2523
02:20:38,959 --> 02:20:42,840
Speaker 6: like longish brown, not long, but like medium shaggy brown hair.

2524
02:20:43,480 --> 02:20:46,959
Speaker 6: But but yeah, he has this combat boot eighty eight tattoo.

2525
02:20:47,800 --> 02:20:49,720
Speaker 11: That's there are a lot of Nazi tattoos and that's

2526
02:20:49,760 --> 02:20:51,240
Speaker 11: not the one I would have picked for this character.

2527
02:20:51,400 --> 02:20:54,640
Speaker 6: No, it's obviously like some lawn order writer googled like

2528
02:20:54,800 --> 02:20:56,240
Speaker 6: Nazi tattoo and just picked that.

2529
02:20:56,400 --> 02:20:59,039
Speaker 11: Like, but that's the thing is, if that's what they

2530
02:20:59,120 --> 02:21:01,160
Speaker 11: had done, I don't think they would have picked that, because,

2531
02:21:01,160 --> 02:21:02,440
Speaker 11: like I said, I was looking through all of these

2532
02:21:02,440 --> 02:21:05,320
Speaker 11: sort of like lists of different kinds of tattoos, yeah,

2533
02:21:05,400 --> 02:21:09,840
Speaker 11: by different nonprofits. There is one one picture in all

2534
02:21:09,879 --> 02:21:12,960
Speaker 11: of these databases of a tattoo that's even similar to this,

2535
02:21:13,000 --> 02:21:15,880
Speaker 11: where it's a pair of boots with the number eight

2536
02:21:16,000 --> 02:21:17,520
Speaker 11: on each boot. I found one.

2537
02:21:18,080 --> 02:21:19,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I think that that is the one

2538
02:21:19,800 --> 02:21:22,520
Speaker 6: they used. I think they did want to like bring

2539
02:21:22,560 --> 02:21:25,040
Speaker 6: in some level of like the idea of dog whistling

2540
02:21:25,280 --> 02:21:27,800
Speaker 6: kind of with eighty eight, which will come up later

2541
02:21:27,840 --> 02:21:31,160
Speaker 6: in the episode, but it's it's not well done anyway.

2542
02:21:31,360 --> 02:21:33,959
Speaker 6: Kovac says that he's never seen Ellis Joyner before and

2543
02:21:34,040 --> 02:21:35,920
Speaker 6: that the night of the murder, he was running a

2544
02:21:36,040 --> 02:21:42,440
Speaker 6: late night intensive training program called the Combat Academy, based

2545
02:21:42,480 --> 02:21:47,040
Speaker 6: on the Navy Seals training course. So many red flags

2546
02:21:47,040 --> 02:21:50,760
Speaker 6: are going off here. It ended around midnight. Afterwards, Kovec

2547
02:21:50,800 --> 02:21:52,680
Speaker 6: said he walked to his girlfriend's dear By apartment. He

2548
02:21:52,800 --> 02:21:55,400
Speaker 6: was never on the subway, but he explains that the

2549
02:21:55,480 --> 02:21:58,640
Speaker 6: gray hoodie and yellow sneakers are part of the Combat

2550
02:21:58,680 --> 02:22:01,480
Speaker 6: Academy uniform that all members wear.

2551
02:22:01,920 --> 02:22:04,439
Speaker 11: It's so important to wear matching outfits with your boys.

2552
02:22:04,520 --> 02:22:08,080
Speaker 6: And in one of the more accurate moments of the episode,

2553
02:22:08,240 --> 02:22:11,000
Speaker 6: as soon as he's in even a little trouble, he

2554
02:22:11,080 --> 02:22:14,039
Speaker 6: gives out all the names of the members in his group.

2555
02:22:15,200 --> 02:22:17,440
Speaker 11: Did not even wait for a subpoena. He's like, would

2556
02:22:17,480 --> 02:22:18,600
Speaker 11: you like their credit card numbers?

2557
02:22:18,680 --> 02:22:21,480
Speaker 6: Did not hesitate. He's like, no, absolutely, I'll give a DNA,

2558
02:22:21,560 --> 02:22:23,400
Speaker 6: so I'll tell I'll tell you the names all the guys.

2559
02:22:23,400 --> 02:22:28,040
Speaker 6: It wasn't me, I swear. So the detectives locate they're

2560
02:22:28,080 --> 02:22:33,080
Speaker 6: recently divorced Brandon Arnaut outside of the I like that

2561
02:22:33,120 --> 02:22:35,360
Speaker 6: they added the detail he was recently divorced, but this

2562
02:22:35,520 --> 02:22:37,920
Speaker 6: never actually come up. It does not matter.

2563
02:22:38,200 --> 02:22:40,360
Speaker 12: But the second, the second they walk up to him

2564
02:22:40,360 --> 02:22:41,920
Speaker 12: on the street, he was like, oh, my wife left me.

2565
02:22:42,120 --> 02:22:45,800
Speaker 12: My wife left me last year with me, so I

2566
02:22:45,840 --> 02:22:47,920
Speaker 12: got really into grappling with the boys because my wife

2567
02:22:48,000 --> 02:22:48,280
Speaker 12: left me.

2568
02:22:48,400 --> 02:22:52,360
Speaker 6: Yes, exactly. So they find him outside the elementary school

2569
02:22:52,400 --> 02:22:54,400
Speaker 6: he teaches that and which.

2570
02:22:54,440 --> 02:22:55,720
Speaker 11: Also never comes up again.

2571
02:22:55,920 --> 02:23:00,920
Speaker 6: Nope, and after very very little questioning, very came questioning,

2572
02:23:01,280 --> 02:23:04,560
Speaker 6: he immediately admits to killing Joyner, saying it was an

2573
02:23:04,640 --> 02:23:07,600
Speaker 6: accident and that Joyner was attacking a woman on the

2574
02:23:07,640 --> 02:23:11,440
Speaker 6: subway and Brandon here was trying to protect her. At

2575
02:23:11,440 --> 02:23:14,160
Speaker 6: the police station, the police say that they can't find

2576
02:23:14,160 --> 02:23:16,879
Speaker 6: any footage of the woman Brandon is talking about, but

2577
02:23:17,000 --> 02:23:19,600
Speaker 6: the defense attorney asks if the cameras were even working

2578
02:23:19,640 --> 02:23:22,600
Speaker 6: at every station, to which the cops roll their eyes

2579
02:23:22,760 --> 02:23:25,800
Speaker 6: if like really sartastical answer. They're like, oh my god,

2580
02:23:25,879 --> 02:23:29,600
Speaker 6: this fucking guy asking if the cameras are broken. The

2581
02:23:29,640 --> 02:23:32,800
Speaker 6: cops tell Brandon that they found Ellis Joyner's missing cell

2582
02:23:32,800 --> 02:23:36,160
Speaker 6: phone in his gym locker. They searched his house, they

2583
02:23:36,200 --> 02:23:38,480
Speaker 6: didn't find anything, but they got his They got a

2584
02:23:38,480 --> 02:23:40,440
Speaker 6: warn for his gym locker and found the cell phone,

2585
02:23:40,560 --> 02:23:43,360
Speaker 6: and they alleged that he stole it after he realized

2586
02:23:43,400 --> 02:23:46,840
Speaker 6: that Joyner recorded a video of the fight that ended

2587
02:23:46,920 --> 02:23:49,320
Speaker 6: up with Joiner being strangled to death.

2588
02:23:49,800 --> 02:23:52,240
Speaker 11: And that's something we call consciousness of guilt.

2589
02:23:52,840 --> 02:23:56,160
Speaker 6: The defense attorney ends the interview immediately as soon as

2590
02:23:56,160 --> 02:23:56,720
Speaker 6: they bring this.

2591
02:23:56,800 --> 02:23:59,360
Speaker 11: Up, like, why wouldn't you tell your lawyer that tell

2592
02:23:59,440 --> 02:24:01,720
Speaker 11: him that before you go in the search history and

2593
02:24:01,720 --> 02:24:04,400
Speaker 11: Brandon's laptop shows him trying to figure out how to

2594
02:24:04,480 --> 02:24:06,400
Speaker 11: unlock the phone to delete the video.

2595
02:24:07,280 --> 02:24:10,360
Speaker 6: Now, this part's a little bit odd. The cops debate

2596
02:24:10,720 --> 02:24:13,800
Speaker 6: even though quote he admits to killing Joyner, I'm not

2597
02:24:13,840 --> 02:24:17,039
Speaker 6: sure we have enough evidence to charge unquote, which is

2598
02:24:17,560 --> 02:24:20,800
Speaker 6: not true. You have so much evidence, you have a confession,

2599
02:24:21,200 --> 02:24:23,039
Speaker 6: you have so much evidence to charge.

2600
02:24:23,040 --> 02:24:25,560
Speaker 11: This is so bizarre, Like how often do you have

2601
02:24:25,600 --> 02:24:29,279
Speaker 11: a recording of a murder happening and then the guy admitting.

2602
02:24:28,920 --> 02:24:33,000
Speaker 6: That it admits, Yeah, it's ridiculous. They charge on far

2603
02:24:33,200 --> 02:24:33,800
Speaker 6: far less.

2604
02:24:34,200 --> 02:24:36,320
Speaker 11: They have that conversation in the room and they're like, well,

2605
02:24:36,360 --> 02:24:37,800
Speaker 11: we can charge him or we can let him go.

2606
02:24:38,120 --> 02:24:40,200
Speaker 11: He's like, I mean, I understand a conversation about like

2607
02:24:40,560 --> 02:24:43,640
Speaker 11: is this murder too, is this manslaughter? Yeah, but it's

2608
02:24:43,640 --> 02:24:45,520
Speaker 11: not a question of whether or not you're charging with something.

2609
02:24:45,560 --> 02:24:46,840
Speaker 11: You're charging him with something.

2610
02:24:47,160 --> 02:24:47,360
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2611
02:24:47,760 --> 02:24:50,280
Speaker 6: I mean, I think there's a reason actually why they

2612
02:24:50,280 --> 02:24:52,400
Speaker 6: had this conversation, which I will get to at the

2613
02:24:52,440 --> 02:24:54,720
Speaker 6: end of the episode if you remind me. I think

2614
02:24:54,840 --> 02:24:56,879
Speaker 6: there's a reason why they discussed this option of letting

2615
02:24:56,959 --> 02:24:59,520
Speaker 6: him go versus charging him. But at this point we

2616
02:24:59,600 --> 02:25:02,520
Speaker 6: now swa to the law half of the episode after

2617
02:25:02,600 --> 02:25:05,160
Speaker 6: we finished the order half. I don't know why these

2618
02:25:05,160 --> 02:25:07,400
Speaker 6: are reversed because they do the police part first, then

2619
02:25:07,440 --> 02:25:10,200
Speaker 6: the court part. But whatever, it should be called order

2620
02:25:10,240 --> 02:25:12,680
Speaker 6: and law, which just guess, I guess, just doesn't sound good.

2621
02:25:13,160 --> 02:25:16,800
Speaker 6: So a front page story in the legally not New

2622
02:25:16,840 --> 02:25:20,000
Speaker 6: York Post is being passed around the DA's office. It

2623
02:25:20,080 --> 02:25:24,640
Speaker 6: reads self defense or racist killing hero or zero.

2624
02:25:26,440 --> 02:25:28,040
Speaker 11: A recurring story in New York City.

2625
02:25:28,600 --> 02:25:31,240
Speaker 6: The prosecutor who's played by Hugh Dancy I'm just gonna

2626
02:25:31,240 --> 02:25:33,360
Speaker 6: call Hugh Dancy because they don't know his character's name,

2627
02:25:33,720 --> 02:25:37,280
Speaker 6: states that half the city believes Brandon's self defense story

2628
02:25:37,360 --> 02:25:39,480
Speaker 6: and the other half just to sees a white man

2629
02:25:39,600 --> 02:25:42,680
Speaker 6: killing an unarmed black man. That is what happened, a

2630
02:25:42,720 --> 02:25:45,680
Speaker 6: litmus test for what people want to believe, says the

2631
02:25:45,680 --> 02:25:47,520
Speaker 6: main DA.

2632
02:25:47,640 --> 02:25:50,400
Speaker 11: I think at this point the writers in that room

2633
02:25:50,440 --> 02:25:53,720
Speaker 11: are just tired. Oh yeah, so like you can only

2634
02:25:53,760 --> 02:25:56,240
Speaker 11: do so much cocaine before it just like stops working.

2635
02:25:57,520 --> 02:25:59,640
Speaker 6: The DA's office says that Brandon held Joiner in a

2636
02:25:59,720 --> 02:26:02,800
Speaker 6: choke for so long after he was unconscious that even

2637
02:26:02,840 --> 02:26:05,840
Speaker 6: if it started as self defense, it escalated to homicide.

2638
02:26:05,920 --> 02:26:08,800
Speaker 6: They debate between manslaughter and murder, saying the former would

2639
02:26:08,800 --> 02:26:11,840
Speaker 6: be easier to win with a clear use of excessive force,

2640
02:26:11,879 --> 02:26:14,520
Speaker 6: regardless of Brandon's story of trying to help the girl.

2641
02:26:15,080 --> 02:26:17,520
Speaker 6: But based on the cell phone video, the DA decides

2642
02:26:17,560 --> 02:26:20,520
Speaker 6: to pursue a murder case due to a quote depraved

2643
02:26:20,640 --> 02:26:24,959
Speaker 6: indifference to human life unquote displayed by choking someone for

2644
02:26:25,320 --> 02:26:27,800
Speaker 6: full three minutes after falling unconscious.

2645
02:26:28,000 --> 02:26:30,359
Speaker 11: I'm not sure if you mentioned so. They found the phone,

2646
02:26:30,800 --> 02:26:33,320
Speaker 11: So the victim had been recording the altercation and then

2647
02:26:33,360 --> 02:26:34,920
Speaker 11: it got knocked out of his hand, and so it

2648
02:26:35,040 --> 02:26:37,680
Speaker 11: was recording audio of the murder, but not video.

2649
02:26:38,720 --> 02:26:39,879
Speaker 6: I'm going to get to that once we get to

2650
02:26:39,879 --> 02:26:43,160
Speaker 6: the court scene. Hugh Dancy is nervous about Brandon's literal

2651
02:26:43,360 --> 02:26:46,359
Speaker 6: white night story and that he has no history of violence,

2652
02:26:46,720 --> 02:26:50,240
Speaker 6: but the DA insists on second degree murder, saying, quote,

2653
02:26:50,560 --> 02:26:54,520
Speaker 6: this is George Floyd all over again in what way?

2654
02:26:55,440 --> 02:26:57,320
Speaker 6: And I'm sure as hell not going to end up

2655
02:26:57,360 --> 02:27:00,200
Speaker 6: on the wrong side of it unquote, Which does ut

2656
02:27:00,240 --> 02:27:01,680
Speaker 6: make the DA sound like a good guy, just makes

2657
02:27:01,720 --> 02:27:03,280
Speaker 6: him sound like he doesn't want to have like a

2658
02:27:03,320 --> 02:27:05,199
Speaker 6: bad press. It comes off as very slimy.

2659
02:27:05,760 --> 02:27:07,360
Speaker 11: I you know, I said, I watch a lave of

2660
02:27:07,400 --> 02:27:09,560
Speaker 11: Law and Order, and so I have seen probably a

2661
02:27:09,640 --> 02:27:11,520
Speaker 11: thousand hours of it, but I haven't watched it in

2662
02:27:11,560 --> 02:27:13,680
Speaker 11: several years, so I don't know if maybe the tone

2663
02:27:14,240 --> 02:27:16,720
Speaker 11: has evolved a little bit, but I got the impression that, like,

2664
02:27:17,120 --> 02:27:19,120
Speaker 11: I don't know, maybe this is a guy who's consistently

2665
02:27:19,120 --> 02:27:21,280
Speaker 11: worried about getting re elected, right because his job is

2666
02:27:21,280 --> 02:27:23,440
Speaker 11: an elected position. Yeah, just doesn't want the press.

2667
02:27:23,640 --> 02:27:24,039
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah.

2668
02:27:24,120 --> 02:27:24,840
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2669
02:27:24,920 --> 02:27:27,600
Speaker 6: So finally we cut to court, the prosecution plays the

2670
02:27:27,640 --> 02:27:30,800
Speaker 6: cell phone video. Seconds after Joyner starts recording on his phone,

2671
02:27:30,840 --> 02:27:33,840
Speaker 6: Brandon knocks it out of his hand, landing camera side down,

2672
02:27:34,120 --> 02:27:37,039
Speaker 6: continuing to record only audio of the struggle. We hear

2673
02:27:37,040 --> 02:27:40,480
Speaker 6: Brandon putting Joyner into a choke hold, Joyner repeatedly saying

2674
02:27:40,560 --> 02:27:43,320
Speaker 6: he can't breathe, before appearing to pass out, followed by

2675
02:27:43,320 --> 02:27:46,080
Speaker 6: three minutes of silence up until Brandon releases his arm

2676
02:27:46,200 --> 02:27:48,800
Speaker 6: from around Joyner's neck. He picks up the phone, sees

2677
02:27:48,840 --> 02:27:52,000
Speaker 6: it's recording, and turns it off. As the video is playing,

2678
02:27:52,320 --> 02:27:54,800
Speaker 6: the prosecutor and the jury are all shaking their heads

2679
02:27:54,800 --> 02:27:56,920
Speaker 6: so that we know that they don't agree with it.

2680
02:27:58,520 --> 02:28:01,240
Speaker 6: Hugh Dancy questions the medical examiner, who explains it after

2681
02:28:01,320 --> 02:28:03,280
Speaker 6: Joiner lost consciousness, he could no longer pose an a

2682
02:28:03,320 --> 02:28:05,960
Speaker 6: lethal threat to the defendant, who continued to talk donor

2683
02:28:06,080 --> 02:28:09,039
Speaker 6: for three more minutes. The defense suggests that a surge

2684
02:28:09,040 --> 02:28:12,840
Speaker 6: of adrenaline distorted time and awareness of his surroundings, which

2685
02:28:12,879 --> 02:28:14,640
Speaker 6: in the panic of the moment, made brand did not

2686
02:28:14,720 --> 02:28:19,440
Speaker 6: realize Joiner lost consciousness for that long. Ellis, Joiner's secret boyfriend,

2687
02:28:19,480 --> 02:28:22,720
Speaker 6: testifies next. He says the defendant was weirdly staring at

2688
02:28:22,800 --> 02:28:26,480
Speaker 6: Joyner and himself, and that Brandon moved aggressively to step

2689
02:28:26,560 --> 02:28:29,200
Speaker 6: in Zayne's way. When he was trying to exit the

2690
02:28:29,200 --> 02:28:32,080
Speaker 6: train and said, quote unquote watch yourself in a quote

2691
02:28:32,120 --> 02:28:36,800
Speaker 6: unquote racist tone. The defense brings up Zayne's past aggravated

2692
02:28:36,800 --> 02:28:39,680
Speaker 6: assault charge to cast doubt on his testimony.

2693
02:28:40,080 --> 02:28:42,520
Speaker 11: Okay, they can't do that. They cannot take they cannot

2694
02:28:42,600 --> 02:28:45,400
Speaker 11: you cannot do that. There is a very limited set

2695
02:28:45,400 --> 02:28:48,040
Speaker 11: of circumstances in which you can bring up a witness's

2696
02:28:48,360 --> 02:28:50,880
Speaker 11: criminal history, and this isn't it.

2697
02:28:51,320 --> 02:28:53,880
Speaker 6: There is a lot of funky law decisions going on

2698
02:28:53,959 --> 02:28:54,879
Speaker 6: in this episode.

2699
02:28:55,000 --> 02:28:55,879
Speaker 11: You can't do that.

2700
02:28:57,240 --> 02:29:01,480
Speaker 6: Speaking of a funky law decisions, while actually speaking of

2701
02:29:01,640 --> 02:29:16,440
Speaker 6: speaking of this ad break, we are back speaking of

2702
02:29:18,440 --> 02:29:23,120
Speaker 6: troubling law decisions. The defense calls a surprise female witness,

2703
02:29:23,240 --> 02:29:25,680
Speaker 6: Rebecca Laski, something you cannot do.

2704
02:29:26,400 --> 02:29:28,600
Speaker 11: I looked it up. The average time to take a

2705
02:29:28,600 --> 02:29:31,280
Speaker 11: felony to trial in New York is a year, So

2706
02:29:31,440 --> 02:29:34,840
Speaker 11: from time of death to this going to trial, best

2707
02:29:34,879 --> 02:29:37,480
Speaker 11: case scenario probably like a fucking year. They had a

2708
02:29:37,560 --> 02:29:39,320
Speaker 11: year to find this woman and she shows up on

2709
02:29:39,320 --> 02:29:40,279
Speaker 11: the last day of the trial.

2710
02:29:41,000 --> 02:29:44,200
Speaker 6: It's definitely not the last day because if.

2711
02:29:43,560 --> 02:29:45,760
Speaker 11: This was you know, this is obviously sort of mimicking

2712
02:29:45,840 --> 02:29:48,160
Speaker 11: the what was his name, Daniel Penny.

2713
02:29:48,600 --> 02:29:50,680
Speaker 6: Yes, that's it's always.

2714
02:29:50,400 --> 02:29:52,200
Speaker 11: Like making the Daniel Penny caase like this would have

2715
02:29:52,240 --> 02:29:54,560
Speaker 11: been on the New York Post like every day leading

2716
02:29:54,640 --> 02:29:55,320
Speaker 11: up to the trial.

2717
02:29:55,360 --> 02:29:58,960
Speaker 6: This woman would have been located. The murder happened in January.

2718
02:29:59,200 --> 02:30:01,800
Speaker 6: The trial star I believe in early March, and lasts

2719
02:30:01,800 --> 02:30:05,199
Speaker 6: about two weeks according to the timeline of the TV show,

2720
02:30:05,480 --> 02:30:09,760
Speaker 6: So that's not how it works anyway. Rebecca Laski, the

2721
02:30:09,800 --> 02:30:13,119
Speaker 6: female the surprise female witness. She testifies that she accidentally

2722
02:30:13,160 --> 02:30:16,640
Speaker 6: bumped into Joyner, who quote unquote appeared mentally disturbed and

2723
02:30:16,720 --> 02:30:22,760
Speaker 6: was making aggressive grunting noises aggressive grunting noises before lunging

2724
02:30:22,800 --> 02:30:25,000
Speaker 6: at her. She then claims Joyner reached into his pocket

2725
02:30:25,040 --> 02:30:26,640
Speaker 6: and she was scared he had a knife or something,

2726
02:30:26,879 --> 02:30:29,640
Speaker 6: so she screamed. She screamed for help, and Brandon Arnau

2727
02:30:29,720 --> 02:30:32,560
Speaker 6: saved her. She testified that mister Arnau grabbed Joyner away

2728
02:30:32,560 --> 02:30:35,560
Speaker 6: from her and the two men started fighting. Laski calls

2729
02:30:35,600 --> 02:30:40,160
Speaker 6: Brandon a hero, and a jury looks on inquisitively. After

2730
02:30:40,200 --> 02:30:43,920
Speaker 6: the female witnesses quote unquote compelling testimony, the prosecutor talks

2731
02:30:43,920 --> 02:30:46,959
Speaker 6: with the DA about offering a manslaughter plea but the

2732
02:30:47,040 --> 02:30:49,440
Speaker 6: DA is steadfast since the video clip of a man

2733
02:30:49,480 --> 02:30:51,640
Speaker 6: begging for his life and being choked to death for

2734
02:30:51,680 --> 02:30:55,520
Speaker 6: three minutes after falling unconscious has not actually changed. Hugh

2735
02:30:55,640 --> 02:30:58,680
Speaker 6: Dancy remarks that new context for the video isn't really

2736
02:30:58,720 --> 02:31:01,840
Speaker 6: in their favor to it. The DA just replies, just

2737
02:31:01,840 --> 02:31:04,400
Speaker 6: because a white woman saw Joyner as a threat doesn't

2738
02:31:04,400 --> 02:31:08,400
Speaker 6: make it true, like okay, based in New York, DA,

2739
02:31:09,680 --> 02:31:13,760
Speaker 6: I guess. Back in court, the prosecution asks Rebecca Laski

2740
02:31:13,760 --> 02:31:16,320
Speaker 6: if she was actually present when a quote, the defendant

2741
02:31:16,440 --> 02:31:19,320
Speaker 6: choked the life out of a joiner unquote. She clarifies

2742
02:31:19,360 --> 02:31:21,360
Speaker 6: that the train stopped as the men were still fighting.

2743
02:31:21,760 --> 02:31:24,360
Speaker 6: Joyner was reaching into his pocket. She was scared that

2744
02:31:24,400 --> 02:31:25,440
Speaker 6: he maybe had a knife.

2745
02:31:25,640 --> 02:31:25,920
Speaker 5: Again.

2746
02:31:26,640 --> 02:31:28,680
Speaker 11: He's probably reaching for his inhaler and.

2747
02:31:28,760 --> 02:31:31,600
Speaker 6: Hailer or his cell phone to record this fight. She

2748
02:31:31,800 --> 02:31:36,520
Speaker 6: curiously mentions, though, that after Brandon grabbed Joyner's arm and

2749
02:31:36,560 --> 02:31:40,280
Speaker 6: the fight started, Brandon kept yelling at Joyner. He was

2750
02:31:40,360 --> 02:31:43,560
Speaker 6: yelling to quote, surrender and that he was bleeding, and

2751
02:31:43,600 --> 02:31:47,000
Speaker 6: that he was dirty or fighting dirty. I don't really

2752
02:31:47,040 --> 02:31:49,400
Speaker 6: remember the exact words unquote.

2753
02:31:49,800 --> 02:31:51,959
Speaker 11: This destroyed me. I almost turned it off.

2754
02:31:52,000 --> 02:31:54,840
Speaker 6: Everyone in the courtroom gets a really funny look when

2755
02:31:54,840 --> 02:32:00,039
Speaker 6: she meant when she mentions the word dirty. So we

2756
02:32:00,040 --> 02:32:01,960
Speaker 6: we will get to this in a sec Under questioning,

2757
02:32:02,080 --> 02:32:04,360
Speaker 6: Last admits that she never saw any weapon of any kind,

2758
02:32:04,480 --> 02:32:07,480
Speaker 6: let alone a knife, and Hugh Dancy suggests that after

2759
02:32:07,600 --> 02:32:09,959
Speaker 6: being attacked by a fellow comedian and having an argument

2760
02:32:09,959 --> 02:32:13,160
Speaker 6: with its boyfriend, Joyner was probably suffering from an asthma

2761
02:32:13,160 --> 02:32:15,959
Speaker 6: attack triggered by high stress. He wasn't mentally ill, he

2762
02:32:16,040 --> 02:32:19,560
Speaker 6: wasn't acting aggressive or grunting in a threatening manner. He

2763
02:32:19,600 --> 02:32:22,040
Speaker 6: was stuck in a subway car having an asthma attack.

2764
02:32:22,400 --> 02:32:26,800
Speaker 6: And he addresses Laski saying, quote, you saw a scary

2765
02:32:26,879 --> 02:32:32,240
Speaker 6: black man making a noise. Objection Uh sustained, So yeah.

2766
02:32:32,120 --> 02:32:35,039
Speaker 11: But they didn't but they objected there. But then when

2767
02:32:35,040 --> 02:32:37,800
Speaker 11: he says like, and isn't it true that his behavior

2768
02:32:37,840 --> 02:32:40,400
Speaker 11: was consistent with an asthma attack? Nobody objected to that

2769
02:32:40,480 --> 02:32:42,800
Speaker 11: she can't offer She can't offer a medical opinion.

2770
02:32:43,080 --> 02:32:46,680
Speaker 6: Rebecca Laski, a ballet dancer, not a medical professional, cannot

2771
02:32:46,720 --> 02:32:51,040
Speaker 6: offer an opinion on what what his medical symptoms can

2772
02:32:51,080 --> 02:32:51,640
Speaker 6: be consistent with.

2773
02:32:52,000 --> 02:32:53,720
Speaker 11: When she starts getting upset, saying like, oh my God,

2774
02:32:53,720 --> 02:32:55,800
Speaker 11: this is all my fault, Like this happened because of me.

2775
02:32:56,000 --> 02:32:59,760
Speaker 11: Like at that point, no prosecutor would have allowed her

2776
02:32:59,800 --> 02:33:03,560
Speaker 11: to continue speaking. He would have said, just answer the questions,

2777
02:33:03,720 --> 02:33:05,760
Speaker 11: just answer the questions. He would not have let her

2778
02:33:05,879 --> 02:33:08,640
Speaker 11: get emotional up there and blame it like that's that's poison.

2779
02:33:08,959 --> 02:33:13,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, but it makes not very good television, thrilling television.

2780
02:33:13,800 --> 02:33:16,720
Speaker 6: So after court for the day, the prosecution wonders if

2781
02:33:16,760 --> 02:33:20,720
Speaker 6: Brandon allegedly saying something about blood and dirt could have

2782
02:33:20,879 --> 02:33:25,240
Speaker 6: really been quote the Nazi slogan blood and.

2783
02:33:25,160 --> 02:33:28,480
Speaker 11: Soil no no, no gere no no.

2784
02:33:29,120 --> 02:33:33,119
Speaker 6: The new battle cry of white nationalist groups unquote.

2785
02:33:33,720 --> 02:33:34,520
Speaker 11: See here's the thing.

2786
02:33:35,000 --> 02:33:37,480
Speaker 6: So this is where the episode goes fully, fully off

2787
02:33:37,480 --> 02:33:37,920
Speaker 6: the rails.

2788
02:33:38,240 --> 02:33:40,240
Speaker 11: So like when I was watching her testimony, she was

2789
02:33:40,280 --> 02:33:41,879
Speaker 11: like he said something about like you know, he was

2790
02:33:41,920 --> 02:33:46,000
Speaker 11: bleeding and like he was dirty. At no point did

2791
02:33:46,080 --> 02:33:50,119
Speaker 11: my mind no connect that too. And I quite literally

2792
02:33:50,200 --> 02:33:53,360
Speaker 11: just yesterday was watching videos of guys yelling blood and soil.

2793
02:33:53,400 --> 02:33:55,080
Speaker 11: This is something that's on my mind.

2794
02:33:55,920 --> 02:33:59,680
Speaker 6: It is a ridiculous jump. It's not there because yeah,

2795
02:33:59,680 --> 02:34:03,680
Speaker 6: he's yelling something about like bleeding because his lip was bleeding,

2796
02:34:04,080 --> 02:34:08,440
Speaker 6: and sure, a remark about being dirty could be could

2797
02:34:08,440 --> 02:34:14,120
Speaker 6: be construed as as like a racist remark. But the

2798
02:34:14,240 --> 02:34:18,039
Speaker 6: jump from bleeding and dirty to blood and dirt to

2799
02:34:18,120 --> 02:34:20,680
Speaker 6: blood and soil is fucking baffling.

2800
02:34:21,200 --> 02:34:24,240
Speaker 11: It's just not even the same words. But not to

2801
02:34:24,320 --> 02:34:26,880
Speaker 11: nippick here, not to Nipick. I just don't know that

2802
02:34:26,959 --> 02:34:29,360
Speaker 11: blood and soil would have been the chant he chose

2803
02:34:29,400 --> 02:34:30,960
Speaker 11: as he was doing the choking.

2804
02:34:31,320 --> 02:34:34,240
Speaker 6: It's bizarre he would have said a slur. Hugh Dancy

2805
02:34:34,320 --> 02:34:37,000
Speaker 6: is also skeptical. None of the interviews with Brandon's family

2806
02:34:37,040 --> 02:34:40,320
Speaker 6: or co workers indicated anything about racial extremism, but the

2807
02:34:40,360 --> 02:34:43,440
Speaker 6: other prosecutor suggests that they look into his fitness gym,

2808
02:34:43,560 --> 02:34:47,400
Speaker 6: the Covak Academy, as the owner quote has ties to

2809
02:34:47,480 --> 02:34:49,600
Speaker 6: a few white nationalist organizations.

2810
02:34:50,040 --> 02:34:50,720
Speaker 11: Uh oh.

2811
02:34:50,959 --> 02:34:53,400
Speaker 6: The DA's office decides to investigate further. They arrive at

2812
02:34:53,400 --> 02:34:55,680
Speaker 6: the gym as the buff Skinhead staff member from the

2813
02:34:55,680 --> 02:34:57,600
Speaker 6: start of the episode is closing up for the day.

2814
02:34:58,160 --> 02:35:00,959
Speaker 6: He claims to not know Brandon very well, and when

2815
02:35:01,000 --> 02:35:02,920
Speaker 6: he's asked if he's ever heard Brandon say something that

2816
02:35:02,959 --> 02:35:06,959
Speaker 6: could be interpreted as racist, he responds by saying, I'm sorry,

2817
02:35:07,000 --> 02:35:10,640
Speaker 6: but I can't help you. The prosecutor makes a snydermark

2818
02:35:10,680 --> 02:35:13,800
Speaker 6: and starts to leave, and the man quietly says, look,

2819
02:35:14,000 --> 02:35:16,560
Speaker 6: I can't get into details, but let's just say you're

2820
02:35:16,600 --> 02:35:19,240
Speaker 6: heading down the right path. But I can't help you

2821
02:35:19,240 --> 02:35:21,440
Speaker 6: because it would blow my cover unquote.

2822
02:35:22,200 --> 02:35:25,000
Speaker 11: WHOA, Oh my gosh.

2823
02:35:25,120 --> 02:35:29,039
Speaker 6: He's a cop infiltrating the Nazi fight club. I mean,

2824
02:35:29,040 --> 02:35:32,200
Speaker 6: there are some cops in there, right. I don't know

2825
02:35:32,240 --> 02:35:37,320
Speaker 6: if I would say they're infiltrating. The next scene is

2826
02:35:37,360 --> 02:35:40,160
Speaker 6: the funniest in the whole episode. After stumbling onto the

2827
02:35:40,240 --> 02:35:43,879
Speaker 6: undercover operation, the head DA arrives at the NYPD counter

2828
02:35:44,000 --> 02:35:47,800
Speaker 6: Terrorism Bureau as they have info pertaining to the prosecution's

2829
02:35:47,879 --> 02:35:51,840
Speaker 6: murder case. But the counter Terrorism Bureau explains their scope

2830
02:35:51,959 --> 02:35:54,720
Speaker 6: is much larger than this one case and they have

2831
02:35:54,840 --> 02:35:57,959
Speaker 6: quote had their eye on Kovac for a while now.

2832
02:35:58,560 --> 02:36:01,039
Speaker 6: They explained to the DA that his MMA gym is

2833
02:36:01,080 --> 02:36:05,040
Speaker 6: actually a quote active club part of an international network

2834
02:36:05,080 --> 02:36:08,920
Speaker 6: of a white supremacist sleeper cells that all front as

2835
02:36:09,120 --> 02:36:16,320
Speaker 6: MMA style gyms unquote. So okay, okay, okay. White nationalists

2836
02:36:16,480 --> 02:36:20,680
Speaker 6: have been using MMA gyms to front for activities for decades.

2837
02:36:21,160 --> 02:36:22,560
Speaker 11: I just found a new one the other day.

2838
02:36:22,680 --> 02:36:25,879
Speaker 6: This does happen. This does not mean they are active clubs,

2839
02:36:26,000 --> 02:36:30,080
Speaker 6: nor do active clubs have to be MMA gyms. These

2840
02:36:30,080 --> 02:36:33,720
Speaker 6: are these things are venn diagrams that can sometimes overlap,

2841
02:36:33,840 --> 02:36:37,000
Speaker 6: but not always. The version of active clubs we see

2842
02:36:37,080 --> 02:36:40,679
Speaker 6: in this episode now starts getting pretty fictitious.

2843
02:36:41,080 --> 02:36:43,720
Speaker 11: It Immediately first, I was like, almost like a fairly

2844
02:36:43,840 --> 02:36:46,520
Speaker 11: reasonable like, yeah, like we do have active clubs at

2845
02:36:46,560 --> 02:36:48,880
Speaker 11: MMA gyms, that's the thing they were like and their

2846
02:36:48,920 --> 02:36:51,279
Speaker 11: stockpiling weapons to do a January sixth.

2847
02:36:51,200 --> 02:36:56,199
Speaker 6: Yeah, so what what? So they say they've identified over

2848
02:36:56,320 --> 02:37:00,640
Speaker 6: thirty active clubs across nine states and several provinces of Canada.

2849
02:37:00,720 --> 02:37:05,480
Speaker 6: So nine states far too low. There's active clubs in

2850
02:37:05,560 --> 02:37:08,600
Speaker 6: way more states than that. There's also not necessarily like

2851
02:37:09,040 --> 02:37:12,160
Speaker 6: if you have thirty active clubs across nine states, that's

2852
02:37:12,160 --> 02:37:14,720
Speaker 6: a bizarre ratio. It means there's a lot of active

2853
02:37:14,720 --> 02:37:16,800
Speaker 6: clubs in like a few states, which generally isn't how

2854
02:37:16,800 --> 02:37:19,680
Speaker 6: it kind of ends up being there's maybe like one

2855
02:37:19,760 --> 02:37:22,800
Speaker 6: or two, maybe three like per state. We don't fully know,

2856
02:37:22,959 --> 02:37:25,520
Speaker 6: but I will give them points for adding in the

2857
02:37:25,600 --> 02:37:28,840
Speaker 6: Canadian chapters, which most people kind of overlook, but.

2858
02:37:28,800 --> 02:37:31,720
Speaker 11: Also like, why is the NYPD investigating something happening in

2859
02:37:31,800 --> 02:37:33,160
Speaker 11: nine states. That's FEDS.

2860
02:37:33,879 --> 02:37:36,600
Speaker 6: To be fair, that is fully accurate. The NYPD counter

2861
02:37:36,720 --> 02:37:39,320
Speaker 6: Terrorism Bureau investigates things all over the world.

2862
02:37:39,840 --> 02:37:41,800
Speaker 11: But it's like just let if it's interstate, let the

2863
02:37:41,800 --> 02:37:42,600
Speaker 11: FEDS handle it.

2864
02:37:42,840 --> 02:37:46,200
Speaker 6: Their jurisdiction is fucking bonkers. They're like the third biggest

2865
02:37:46,200 --> 02:37:49,360
Speaker 6: that counter terrorism like law enforcement group in the entire world.

2866
02:37:49,520 --> 02:37:51,560
Speaker 11: It's like one of the world's largest standing armies.

2867
02:37:51,760 --> 02:37:54,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, it is. It is absurd, they say. Quote

2868
02:37:54,800 --> 02:37:57,920
Speaker 6: the clubs operate as recruitment centers. They lure in a

2869
02:37:57,959 --> 02:38:00,480
Speaker 6: young white men under the guise of getting fit while

2870
02:38:00,480 --> 02:38:04,920
Speaker 6: indoctrinating them in racist ideology and training them in military

2871
02:38:04,959 --> 02:38:09,520
Speaker 6: combat unquote. Now, the training that people receive in active

2872
02:38:09,520 --> 02:38:14,600
Speaker 6: clubs very often does not equal military combat training. In fact,

2873
02:38:14,879 --> 02:38:18,920
Speaker 6: they often have very poor fitness regiments and really bad

2874
02:38:18,959 --> 02:38:20,120
Speaker 6: advice on how to get fit.

2875
02:38:20,640 --> 02:38:24,000
Speaker 11: I mean, if getting hooked on gear and rolling around

2876
02:38:24,040 --> 02:38:26,879
Speaker 11: on the floor shirtless with the boys is military combat training,

2877
02:38:26,920 --> 02:38:27,640
Speaker 11: then absolutely.

2878
02:38:28,000 --> 02:38:30,600
Speaker 6: If you look at the there's a pretty sensive docks

2879
02:38:30,640 --> 02:38:32,600
Speaker 6: of some of the active club members in the state

2880
02:38:32,640 --> 02:38:37,840
Speaker 6: of Georgia last year, and they were their fitness information

2881
02:38:38,040 --> 02:38:40,800
Speaker 6: was not up to stuff. They were mostly seventeen year

2882
02:38:40,800 --> 02:38:43,560
Speaker 6: olds who were arguing about different ways to like lift

2883
02:38:43,600 --> 02:38:48,000
Speaker 6: better anyway. Lawn Order says that these active clubs are

2884
02:38:48,120 --> 02:38:53,039
Speaker 6: quote trying to build an army. It's the new face

2885
02:38:53,080 --> 02:38:58,400
Speaker 6: of hate unquote a very kind of retro slogan. We

2886
02:38:58,400 --> 02:39:00,200
Speaker 6: don't really use that anymore, but if you look like

2887
02:39:00,280 --> 02:39:04,000
Speaker 6: ten years ago or like, yeah, around ten years ago,

2888
02:39:04,040 --> 02:39:05,840
Speaker 6: you would see a lot of like liberal articles talking

2889
02:39:05,879 --> 02:39:09,199
Speaker 6: about the new face of hate. Quote no more white

2890
02:39:09,240 --> 02:39:12,279
Speaker 6: sheets or burning crosses. They've adapted and created a facade

2891
02:39:12,320 --> 02:39:17,520
Speaker 6: to mask their racist beliefs unquote. So the DA wants

2892
02:39:17,560 --> 02:39:20,320
Speaker 6: their undercover guy to testify to secure the conviction against

2893
02:39:20,400 --> 02:39:22,640
Speaker 6: one of the active club members, but the counter Terrorism

2894
02:39:22,640 --> 02:39:25,199
Speaker 6: Bureau doesn't want to blow their nine month undercover operation

2895
02:39:25,440 --> 02:39:29,560
Speaker 6: even for a murder conviction, as they've quote recently received

2896
02:39:29,640 --> 02:39:32,840
Speaker 6: credible intel that Kovak is now stock pile a leg

2897
02:39:32,879 --> 02:39:36,880
Speaker 6: of firearms and explosive materials unquote.

2898
02:39:36,760 --> 02:39:38,680
Speaker 11: So they should probably go ahead and arrest him for that.

2899
02:39:38,879 --> 02:39:42,480
Speaker 6: Huh yeah, yeah, right, it's time to move I guess

2900
02:39:42,600 --> 02:39:44,959
Speaker 6: now they're combining like active club stuff with some like

2901
02:39:45,080 --> 02:39:48,240
Speaker 6: Adam Woffen and militia stuff, just like throat, just just

2902
02:39:48,280 --> 02:39:52,920
Speaker 6: smushing together all these different groups into one like mega boogeyman.

2903
02:39:53,040 --> 02:39:57,000
Speaker 6: I guess quote these men are terrorists. They're capable of

2904
02:39:57,040 --> 02:40:01,840
Speaker 6: significant violence unquote. So the counter Terrorism Burero suggests that

2905
02:40:01,840 --> 02:40:04,240
Speaker 6: the DA takes a quote big picture of view of

2906
02:40:04,240 --> 02:40:07,240
Speaker 6: the situation unquote. So the DA breaks the news to

2907
02:40:07,280 --> 02:40:09,880
Speaker 6: the prosecution team that the undercover will be unable to

2908
02:40:09,920 --> 02:40:14,440
Speaker 6: testify because the active club is quote planning a coordinated

2909
02:40:14,520 --> 02:40:19,359
Speaker 6: attack along the lines of the January sixth insurrection unquote.

2910
02:40:19,920 --> 02:40:22,800
Speaker 11: So you should probably like the undercover operation is over,

2911
02:40:22,879 --> 02:40:25,560
Speaker 11: Like if you have credible intel that there's an imminent attack,

2912
02:40:25,600 --> 02:40:26,680
Speaker 11: like the operation is over.

2913
02:40:26,959 --> 02:40:30,240
Speaker 6: So also like this is just not what active clubs do,

2914
02:40:30,360 --> 02:40:33,039
Speaker 6: Like this is like they don't care about J six.

2915
02:40:33,120 --> 02:40:35,440
Speaker 6: That's like a proud boy thing and some militia dude.

2916
02:40:35,480 --> 02:40:38,039
Speaker 6: It's like most active club members would be like, no,

2917
02:40:38,240 --> 02:40:40,039
Speaker 6: all of the J six people are like fucking like

2918
02:40:40,400 --> 02:40:44,400
Speaker 6: conservative like Trump Trump, brain dead losers.

2919
02:40:44,400 --> 02:40:45,160
Speaker 2: They're like, it's.

2920
02:40:45,280 --> 02:40:47,400
Speaker 11: Really that thing a couple of years ago where those

2921
02:40:47,440 --> 02:40:49,879
Speaker 11: members of the base were arrested right before they were

2922
02:40:49,959 --> 02:40:52,040
Speaker 11: going to try to kick off the Civil War by

2923
02:40:52,080 --> 02:40:54,480
Speaker 11: inciting they were going to shoot into the crowd at

2924
02:40:54,480 --> 02:40:56,960
Speaker 11: the gun rally in Richmond at the Virginia Gun and

2925
02:40:56,959 --> 02:40:59,320
Speaker 11: then the plan was that everyone would start shooting each other.

2926
02:40:59,320 --> 02:40:59,480
Speaker 4: You know.

2927
02:40:59,600 --> 02:41:01,360
Speaker 11: It's like, so they had a pretty large stockpile of

2928
02:41:01,360 --> 02:41:03,480
Speaker 11: weapons that one of the guys was Canadians, So like

2929
02:41:03,520 --> 02:41:07,160
Speaker 11: maybe they got mixed up with that the base.

2930
02:41:07,320 --> 02:41:10,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, like they're combining elements of the bass Adam offfin

2931
02:41:10,320 --> 02:41:14,080
Speaker 6: active clubs, proud boys into this like mega boogeyman, right,

2932
02:41:14,480 --> 02:41:18,400
Speaker 6: just a villain. The DA says that this new attack

2933
02:41:18,440 --> 02:41:22,280
Speaker 6: will quote only be more violent and without advance warning

2934
02:41:22,400 --> 02:41:22,959
Speaker 6: this time.

2935
02:41:24,280 --> 02:41:25,680
Speaker 11: What do you mean without advanced warning?

2936
02:41:26,120 --> 02:41:31,760
Speaker 6: He just says, no, right, right, let this happen.

2937
02:41:33,000 --> 02:41:35,080
Speaker 11: The greater good is for us to allow this to occur.

2938
02:41:35,240 --> 02:41:38,039
Speaker 6: The undercover investigation cannot be jepridized in any way. But

2939
02:41:38,160 --> 02:41:40,640
Speaker 6: as this looks more and more like a racially targeted murder,

2940
02:41:40,879 --> 02:41:43,520
Speaker 6: according to the DA, the DA's office is to find

2941
02:41:43,560 --> 02:41:46,039
Speaker 6: a different way to show that Brandon is racist. Quote

2942
02:41:46,080 --> 02:41:49,920
Speaker 6: it's for the greater good a phrase, a phrase that

2943
02:41:50,000 --> 02:41:54,200
Speaker 6: Hugh Dancy says helps justify a lot of otherwise unjustifiable positions.

2944
02:41:54,360 --> 02:41:56,920
Speaker 6: And true, they started getting into this kind of debate

2945
02:41:56,959 --> 02:41:59,600
Speaker 6: around like the ethics of like doing a long term

2946
02:41:59,680 --> 02:42:03,640
Speaker 6: infla tration operation versus seeing like a like like an

2947
02:42:03,680 --> 02:42:06,240
Speaker 6: active like like seeing an active threat, or like seeing

2948
02:42:06,240 --> 02:42:11,400
Speaker 6: a way to like currently clamp down on a like

2949
02:42:11,640 --> 02:42:13,720
Speaker 6: arm of an organization, even if they can't get the

2950
02:42:13,720 --> 02:42:16,080
Speaker 6: whole thing yet, and they have this debate like is

2951
02:42:16,120 --> 02:42:17,879
Speaker 6: it is it better to like do like a long

2952
02:42:18,000 --> 02:42:20,600
Speaker 6: term strategy or to like just like chop off as

2953
02:42:20,600 --> 02:42:23,480
Speaker 6: many limbs as we can as we go on and again,

2954
02:42:23,560 --> 02:42:25,400
Speaker 6: it doesn't make sense because if they have all this

2955
02:42:25,480 --> 02:42:27,600
Speaker 6: credible intel, why not just like get them right now?

2956
02:42:27,640 --> 02:42:32,160
Speaker 6: But like what I wrap it up? So back in court,

2957
02:42:33,120 --> 02:42:36,560
Speaker 6: mister Kovak is on the stand. Hugh Dancy asks if

2958
02:42:36,560 --> 02:42:40,040
Speaker 6: he and the defendant have ever discussed quote, racial ideology,

2959
02:42:41,280 --> 02:42:44,240
Speaker 6: to which Kovac says, I don't know what that means.

2960
02:42:45,320 --> 02:42:48,240
Speaker 6: Believable the Probible. I mean, yeah, that is the correct

2961
02:42:48,280 --> 02:42:51,960
Speaker 6: answer for this situation. The prosecutor elaborates racial purity into

2962
02:42:52,040 --> 02:42:54,600
Speaker 6: racial marriage, what role black people should or shouldn't have

2963
02:42:54,600 --> 02:42:58,640
Speaker 6: in society, and Kovac once again feigns ignorance. Hugh Dancy

2964
02:42:58,680 --> 02:43:01,640
Speaker 6: asks about Kovacs eighty eight to tattoo being a Nazi

2965
02:43:01,680 --> 02:43:05,440
Speaker 6: symbol and Kovec just says, I don't know, I just

2966
02:43:05,480 --> 02:43:08,840
Speaker 6: like the number eighty eight, and then he doesn't.

2967
02:43:08,560 --> 02:43:12,360
Speaker 11: The prosecutor doesn't explain to the jury, no, does it

2968
02:43:12,440 --> 02:43:13,320
Speaker 11: means Kyle Hitler.

2969
02:43:13,400 --> 02:43:15,840
Speaker 6: He just he just moves on. Never once in the

2970
02:43:15,879 --> 02:43:19,320
Speaker 6: episode is it explained that the eighty eight symbol me

2971
02:43:19,600 --> 02:43:20,959
Speaker 6: is a reference to high Hitler.

2972
02:43:21,280 --> 02:43:24,040
Speaker 11: Never ever actually say it, never say it. Yeah.

2973
02:43:24,200 --> 02:43:27,480
Speaker 6: Dancy does bring up mister Kodak's for prior convictions for

2974
02:43:27,480 --> 02:43:30,039
Speaker 6: assaulting black men, two of which were charged as hay crimes,

2975
02:43:30,160 --> 02:43:32,400
Speaker 6: and Kovec just says, that was a long time ago.

2976
02:43:33,560 --> 02:43:35,720
Speaker 11: And now see, I do want to say, because you

2977
02:43:35,959 --> 02:43:37,400
Speaker 11: made such a big deal about it earlier, about how

2978
02:43:37,440 --> 02:43:40,040
Speaker 11: you can't ask about prior convictions. I think in this

2979
02:43:40,120 --> 02:43:42,520
Speaker 11: case it is an allowable exception because it goes to

2980
02:43:42,720 --> 02:43:45,600
Speaker 11: direct impeachment, Like if he said, like, yeah, you know,

2981
02:43:45,680 --> 02:43:48,480
Speaker 11: he made a statement himself about how he's not racist,

2982
02:43:48,480 --> 02:43:50,760
Speaker 11: and you say, well, you have a hate crime conviction.

2983
02:43:51,080 --> 02:43:52,880
Speaker 6: And later in the court room he says that he

2984
02:43:53,040 --> 02:43:55,800
Speaker 6: of course obviously doesn't have any problems with black people

2985
02:43:55,840 --> 02:43:59,480
Speaker 6: when being a questioned by the defense attorney, but Hugh

2986
02:43:59,560 --> 02:44:04,240
Speaker 6: Dancy pulls up Kovak's social media accounts, all of which

2987
02:44:04,320 --> 02:44:09,640
Speaker 6: contained the phrase blood and soil in his bio objection relevance.

2988
02:44:10,160 --> 02:44:13,400
Speaker 6: The prosecution then argues that Rebecculaski's testimony of hearing something

2989
02:44:13,400 --> 02:44:15,760
Speaker 6: about blood and dirt may have been a vague recollection

2990
02:44:15,879 --> 02:44:17,119
Speaker 6: of hearing blood and soil.

2991
02:44:17,600 --> 02:44:17,640
Speaker 7: No.

2992
02:44:18,240 --> 02:44:21,000
Speaker 6: Dancy describes bud and soil as a Nazi reference to

2993
02:44:21,120 --> 02:44:23,600
Speaker 6: a racially uniform society.

2994
02:44:24,520 --> 02:44:26,280
Speaker 11: The jury would not have been allowed to hear this.

2995
02:44:26,400 --> 02:44:28,480
Speaker 11: This happened outside the presence of the jury.

2996
02:44:29,040 --> 02:44:31,959
Speaker 6: Kovaca says, the phrase means that you're proud of who

2997
02:44:32,000 --> 02:44:35,000
Speaker 6: you are and where you come from. Kovac taught the

2998
02:44:35,040 --> 02:44:36,879
Speaker 6: defendant how to fight, how to do a choke hold,

2999
02:44:37,200 --> 02:44:39,720
Speaker 6: so to end the questioning, Hugh Dancy asks if he

3000
02:44:39,800 --> 02:44:44,920
Speaker 6: also taught the defendant to hate black people. Objection objection,

3001
02:44:46,520 --> 02:44:50,160
Speaker 6: all right, So, The defense's closing argument frames the subway

3002
02:44:50,280 --> 02:44:54,080
Speaker 6: as a dangerous, lawless zone and Brandon as a peaceful

3003
02:44:54,120 --> 02:44:57,160
Speaker 6: elementary school teacher who has never gotten as much as

3004
02:44:57,200 --> 02:44:58,400
Speaker 6: a speeding ticket.

3005
02:44:58,840 --> 02:44:59,960
Speaker 11: Probably because he doesn't dry.

3006
02:45:00,480 --> 02:45:03,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, because you live in New York. Uh who saw

3007
02:45:03,640 --> 02:45:06,400
Speaker 6: someone in danger and bravely decided to step up and

3008
02:45:06,400 --> 02:45:10,760
Speaker 6: do something. The prosecution's closing argument frames Brandon Arnaut as

3009
02:45:10,800 --> 02:45:13,720
Speaker 6: a closeted racist who saw an opportunity to put his

3010
02:45:13,720 --> 02:45:16,680
Speaker 6: white supremacist ideology into practice in a situation where he

3011
02:45:16,720 --> 02:45:18,959
Speaker 6: thought he could get away with it. Quote. People like

3012
02:45:19,000 --> 02:45:21,640
Speaker 6: mister Arnaud keep their bigotry buttoned up. They only discuss

3013
02:45:21,640 --> 02:45:24,120
Speaker 6: it that people who share their hateful worldview. They rely

3014
02:45:24,240 --> 02:45:27,840
Speaker 6: on plausible deniability because if the racism isn't overt, many

3015
02:45:27,879 --> 02:45:30,119
Speaker 6: good people are all too happy to assume it isn't there.

3016
02:45:30,440 --> 02:45:32,640
Speaker 6: But every once in a while, in moments of panic

3017
02:45:32,720 --> 02:45:37,720
Speaker 6: or anger, the mask will slip unquote. Hugh Dancy closes

3018
02:45:37,760 --> 02:45:40,199
Speaker 6: by saying that Ellis Joyner was an innocent, unarmed black

3019
02:45:40,200 --> 02:45:43,320
Speaker 6: man suffering a medical emergency, and the two white people

3020
02:45:43,360 --> 02:45:45,560
Speaker 6: on the train assumed he was a violent threat, and

3021
02:45:45,600 --> 02:45:48,320
Speaker 6: they attacked him. And even if there was no intention

3022
02:45:48,520 --> 02:45:51,400
Speaker 6: to kill at the start quote, at some point, the

3023
02:45:51,440 --> 02:45:56,600
Speaker 6: defendant's focus shifted and his racial hate began to manifest unquote,

3024
02:45:56,920 --> 02:46:00,280
Speaker 6: yelling blood and soil at Joiner quote a declaration of

3025
02:46:00,320 --> 02:46:04,320
Speaker 6: hatred for all people of color unquote, as Brandon choked

3026
02:46:04,360 --> 02:46:04,920
Speaker 6: him to death.

3027
02:46:06,200 --> 02:46:11,040
Speaker 11: Okay, here's the thing, here's the thing. This whole situation

3028
02:46:11,200 --> 02:46:15,440
Speaker 11: with the undercover the counter terrorism. I have to believe

3029
02:46:15,480 --> 02:46:17,720
Speaker 11: that they're trying to set up a longer plot arc

3030
02:46:17,760 --> 02:46:19,640
Speaker 11: that that's going to come back in a later episode

3031
02:46:19,840 --> 02:46:21,440
Speaker 11: or so. They have a new spin off called Law

3032
02:46:21,440 --> 02:46:26,440
Speaker 11: and Order Organized Crime with Christopher Maloney Elliott Stabler from SVU.

3033
02:46:26,600 --> 02:46:27,840
Speaker 11: So I wonder if they're going to cross it over

3034
02:46:27,840 --> 02:46:31,920
Speaker 11: to organized crime, because it makes no sense.

3035
02:46:32,000 --> 02:46:34,640
Speaker 6: That's what I assume. I think this white national group

3036
02:46:34,680 --> 02:46:36,560
Speaker 6: is going to come back and be even a bigger

3037
02:46:36,600 --> 02:46:39,240
Speaker 6: plot point in a future episode. Otherwise, it didn't need

3038
02:46:39,280 --> 02:46:41,320
Speaker 6: to be in here. Otherwise the inclusion in this in

3039
02:46:41,360 --> 02:46:43,200
Speaker 6: this piece is really bizarre.

3040
02:46:43,600 --> 02:46:45,800
Speaker 11: So but no, so, but what I was going to

3041
02:46:45,840 --> 02:46:50,640
Speaker 11: say is they did not need that undercovers testimony because

3042
02:46:50,680 --> 02:46:52,760
Speaker 11: the only testimony they wanted to elicit it from him

3043
02:46:53,280 --> 02:46:55,920
Speaker 11: was like as a character witness to say like, oh, yeah,

3044
02:46:55,959 --> 02:46:59,760
Speaker 11: I've met him and he's racist. That wouldn't really even

3045
02:47:00,240 --> 02:47:03,800
Speaker 11: be admissible in most like like even if the even

3046
02:47:03,840 --> 02:47:05,680
Speaker 11: if the judge allowed the jury to hear that, like,

3047
02:47:06,360 --> 02:47:09,920
Speaker 11: this isn't a hate crime case, it doesn't matter. What

3048
02:47:10,080 --> 02:47:13,040
Speaker 11: matters is whether or not he used excessive, like more

3049
02:47:13,080 --> 02:47:16,160
Speaker 11: force than was necessary for a self defense argument.

3050
02:47:16,520 --> 02:47:19,200
Speaker 6: The entire legal strategy they shift to halfway through the

3051
02:47:19,200 --> 02:47:23,480
Speaker 6: corproateceedings is so obviously a dead end that doesn't actually relate.

3052
02:47:23,560 --> 02:47:25,360
Speaker 11: To and wouldn't have been allowed.

3053
02:47:25,600 --> 02:47:27,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's so it's so bizarre.

3054
02:47:27,760 --> 02:47:29,480
Speaker 11: And if they wanted to and if they wanted to

3055
02:47:29,520 --> 02:47:33,800
Speaker 11: get information about like his views that maybe his family

3056
02:47:33,840 --> 02:47:36,000
Speaker 11: didn't know about that people at work didn't know about,

3057
02:47:36,200 --> 02:47:38,879
Speaker 11: why did they not get warrants for his phone and computer?

3058
02:47:39,120 --> 02:47:41,760
Speaker 6: I mean, I think they did because they mentioned in

3059
02:47:41,760 --> 02:47:44,360
Speaker 6: searching through his phone and computer multiple times through the.

3060
02:47:44,320 --> 02:47:47,360
Speaker 11: Episode, found that he had searched for like how to

3061
02:47:47,440 --> 02:47:50,000
Speaker 11: delete from cloud or whatever from the guy's phone.

3062
02:47:50,000 --> 02:47:52,360
Speaker 6: But like again, I think that's mostly just like undercooked.

3063
02:47:53,080 --> 02:47:56,119
Speaker 11: He didn't open like his telegram account to see what exactly.

3064
02:47:56,320 --> 02:47:58,280
Speaker 6: You didn't see the active club chat season. You didn't

3065
02:47:58,280 --> 02:48:01,320
Speaker 6: see like you didn't talk to any other members of

3066
02:48:01,720 --> 02:48:06,640
Speaker 6: the Combat Academy, no other members of the gym really anyway,

3067
02:48:06,800 --> 02:48:12,160
Speaker 6: So the jury finds the defendant not guilty because yeah, okay,

3068
02:48:12,680 --> 02:48:15,760
Speaker 6: outside the courtroom, the head DA says, quote, we did

3069
02:48:15,800 --> 02:48:16,879
Speaker 6: the best that we could.

3070
02:48:18,400 --> 02:48:21,000
Speaker 11: Here's another problem. There's another problem. So not all states

3071
02:48:21,040 --> 02:48:24,400
Speaker 11: allow this, but in New York, the court can submit

3072
02:48:24,440 --> 02:48:27,520
Speaker 11: to the jury what are called lesser included charges. So

3073
02:48:27,560 --> 02:48:30,320
Speaker 11: if you're charged with murder two I think was what

3074
02:48:30,360 --> 02:48:32,480
Speaker 11: they charged him with his case, you know, the jury

3075
02:48:32,520 --> 02:48:35,480
Speaker 11: can deliberate on the actual charge murder too, but they

3076
02:48:35,520 --> 02:48:38,960
Speaker 11: can also consider what are called lesser included charges, so

3077
02:48:39,040 --> 02:48:42,280
Speaker 11: something like manslaughter. So the jury can say, well, we're

3078
02:48:42,280 --> 02:48:44,080
Speaker 11: not going to convict on murder. Tube we do think

3079
02:48:44,120 --> 02:48:45,840
Speaker 11: it was manslaughter, so we're going to convict on that,

3080
02:48:45,879 --> 02:48:48,120
Speaker 11: even though that wasn't the charge in the indictment. So

3081
02:48:48,520 --> 02:48:51,440
Speaker 11: I can't imagine that this DA would not have pushed

3082
02:48:51,640 --> 02:48:53,039
Speaker 11: for lesser included charges.

3083
02:48:53,240 --> 02:48:56,680
Speaker 6: Well, Hugh Dancy may agree. He says, quote, no, we

3084
02:48:56,720 --> 02:48:59,720
Speaker 6: could have done better. We just chose not to for

3085
02:48:59,800 --> 02:49:00,840
Speaker 6: the greater good.

3086
02:49:01,600 --> 02:49:04,600
Speaker 11: No, but they they could.

3087
02:49:04,800 --> 02:49:06,960
Speaker 6: I think I think he said that kind of sarcastically.

3088
02:49:07,560 --> 02:49:10,000
Speaker 6: The the DA affirms that one day soon they will

3089
02:49:10,000 --> 02:49:13,840
Speaker 6: take down the whole racist organization. But behind the the

3090
02:49:13,879 --> 02:49:16,760
Speaker 6: to the two days here Brandon walks out of the

3091
02:49:16,800 --> 02:49:19,640
Speaker 6: courtroom and celebrates with the other members of the Active Club.

3092
02:49:20,120 --> 02:49:21,359
Speaker 6: End of episode.

3093
02:49:21,959 --> 02:49:24,400
Speaker 11: Okay, so but when they when they put Kovac on

3094
02:49:24,440 --> 02:49:26,000
Speaker 11: the stand and they were saying like, oh, like, did

3095
02:49:26,000 --> 02:49:29,440
Speaker 11: you teach him about racism. The better line of questioning

3096
02:49:29,480 --> 02:49:33,119
Speaker 11: at that moment would have been, Okay, you're his grappling coach,

3097
02:49:33,720 --> 02:49:37,320
Speaker 11: did you teach him how dangerous choke holts are?

3098
02:49:37,959 --> 02:49:38,160
Speaker 6: Right?

3099
02:49:38,200 --> 02:49:40,360
Speaker 11: Because, like, I don't know anything about a choke holds.

3100
02:49:40,400 --> 02:49:43,039
Speaker 11: If I accidentally killed someone with one, maybe I didn't

3101
02:49:43,080 --> 02:49:46,600
Speaker 11: know that would happen. If you are taking five hours

3102
02:49:46,640 --> 02:49:49,640
Speaker 11: a week of private hand to hand combat lessons, you

3103
02:49:49,680 --> 02:49:53,840
Speaker 11: probably do know, and that would go to you know, foreknowledge,

3104
02:49:53,920 --> 02:49:56,440
Speaker 11: and like, why didn't why didn't they ask that?

3105
02:49:56,680 --> 02:49:59,640
Speaker 6: Again? I started this episode because I thought it would

3106
02:49:59,680 --> 02:50:01,879
Speaker 6: be about active clubs, and it turns out by the

3107
02:50:02,000 --> 02:50:03,240
Speaker 6: end it's really not.

3108
02:50:03,760 --> 02:50:04,959
Speaker 11: It's really about Daniel Penny.

3109
02:50:05,080 --> 02:50:09,160
Speaker 6: It's really about the killing of Jordan Neely. So this

3110
02:50:09,200 --> 02:50:11,600
Speaker 6: is the actual rip from the headline's piece that they're doing,

3111
02:50:11,640 --> 02:50:13,879
Speaker 6: which I did not really realize until the episode was over.

3112
02:50:14,480 --> 02:50:18,520
Speaker 6: So this is kind of riffing on the incident that

3113
02:50:18,520 --> 02:50:21,000
Speaker 6: happened on May first, twenty twenty three. Jordan Neely was

3114
02:50:21,000 --> 02:50:24,600
Speaker 6: a thirty year old black man. He was Michael Jackson impersonator.

3115
02:50:24,640 --> 02:50:26,560
Speaker 6: At the time. He was homeless. He was running the

3116
02:50:26,560 --> 02:50:29,840
Speaker 6: subway in Manhattan and appeared emotionally distressed. He was yelling

3117
02:50:29,840 --> 02:50:32,560
Speaker 6: about needing food and water. No one was helping him.

3118
02:50:32,720 --> 02:50:34,879
Speaker 6: He was yelling that he didn't care about going to jail.

3119
02:50:34,959 --> 02:50:38,480
Speaker 6: He was ready to die, and this was reportedly frightening

3120
02:50:38,520 --> 02:50:42,640
Speaker 6: other writers. Daniel Penny, a twenty four year old former marine,

3121
02:50:42,879 --> 02:50:45,320
Speaker 6: approached Neely and placed him in a lethal chocold that

3122
02:50:45,400 --> 02:50:48,879
Speaker 6: lasted anywhere from five to seven minutes, depending on if

3123
02:50:48,920 --> 02:50:52,279
Speaker 6: you ask the prosecution or the defense. Penny was repeatedly

3124
02:50:52,320 --> 02:50:55,039
Speaker 6: told by other writers that Neely appeared to be dying.

3125
02:50:55,879 --> 02:50:58,280
Speaker 6: By the time first aid was being administered, he was

3126
02:50:58,280 --> 02:51:01,640
Speaker 6: already dead. Daniel Penny was let go after being questioned

3127
02:51:01,640 --> 02:51:04,119
Speaker 6: by police, and only arrested eleven days later. I think

3128
02:51:04,160 --> 02:51:06,480
Speaker 6: this is the part where they're like, do we want

3129
02:51:06,480 --> 02:51:09,000
Speaker 6: to let them go or charge him now? I think

3130
02:51:09,000 --> 02:51:11,800
Speaker 6: that's kind of what they're doing here. On June fourteenth,

3131
02:51:11,800 --> 02:51:14,080
Speaker 6: twenty twenty three, he was indicted on a charge of

3132
02:51:14,160 --> 02:51:18,119
Speaker 6: second degree manslaughter. The trial scheduled to start on October eighth,

3133
02:51:18,200 --> 02:51:22,720
Speaker 6: twenty twenty four. So this episode also, I think it

3134
02:51:22,760 --> 02:51:24,360
Speaker 6: fails in a lot of ways in this depiction of

3135
02:51:24,400 --> 02:51:28,360
Speaker 6: active clubs. It uses certain terms, like the term active clubs,

3136
02:51:28,360 --> 02:51:30,200
Speaker 6: which I was surprised they just I'm surprised they use

3137
02:51:30,240 --> 02:51:32,200
Speaker 6: because that's kind of a more of like a niche term,

3138
02:51:32,640 --> 02:51:35,200
Speaker 6: but they just made it to be this like MMA

3139
02:51:35,400 --> 02:51:38,840
Speaker 6: elite Nazi squad. And I think them trying to include

3140
02:51:38,840 --> 02:51:42,959
Speaker 6: this bit does an incredible disservice to trying to depict

3141
02:51:43,080 --> 02:51:45,560
Speaker 6: the killing of Jordan Neely, which, first of all, like

3142
02:51:45,600 --> 02:51:48,600
Speaker 6: there's already problematic aspects of right of turning this this

3143
02:51:48,680 --> 02:51:50,640
Speaker 6: like really fucked up thing into a piece of entertainment.

3144
02:51:50,800 --> 02:51:53,720
Speaker 6: That's kind of why I started this episode with that monologue.

3145
02:51:53,920 --> 02:51:56,920
Speaker 6: But I think by cramming so many other elements in here,

3146
02:51:56,959 --> 02:52:01,040
Speaker 6: like this, like this homophobia angle, this this this active

3147
02:52:01,080 --> 02:52:04,119
Speaker 6: club angle, it does a real disservice to the actual

3148
02:52:04,440 --> 02:52:07,880
Speaker 6: incident that they're trying to comment on, where there was

3149
02:52:07,920 --> 02:52:10,879
Speaker 6: a man in a very crowded subway who very publicly

3150
02:52:11,360 --> 02:52:16,640
Speaker 6: was basically lynched because a few writers were not super

3151
02:52:16,680 --> 02:52:20,199
Speaker 6: comfortable when riding the subway because this man was yelling

3152
02:52:20,240 --> 02:52:28,760
Speaker 6: for food and water. So it's not great, But after

3153
02:52:28,840 --> 02:52:31,160
Speaker 6: watching Leave the World Behind Civil War on this, I

3154
02:52:31,160 --> 02:52:33,640
Speaker 6: think this is the best depiction of our current political

3155
02:52:33,680 --> 02:52:36,080
Speaker 6: moment out of all of those three things, which is

3156
02:52:36,440 --> 02:52:39,160
Speaker 6: a pretty fucked up bar. I guess, Molly, do you

3157
02:52:39,200 --> 02:52:42,200
Speaker 6: have any other thoughts on how they depict Nazi stuff

3158
02:52:42,200 --> 02:52:42,400
Speaker 6: in this?

3159
02:52:43,840 --> 02:52:48,080
Speaker 11: I mean not well, not well, bitch, uh no. The

3160
02:52:48,440 --> 02:52:50,840
Speaker 11: I was just gonna say, I was looking on Reddit

3161
02:52:51,040 --> 02:52:55,000
Speaker 11: and seeing people's people's takes on it on the Law

3162
02:52:55,040 --> 02:52:58,160
Speaker 11: and Order Reddit, and I found this fantastic comment. They

3163
02:52:58,200 --> 02:53:00,720
Speaker 11: did take the Daniel Penny case but change the whole

3164
02:53:00,760 --> 02:53:03,480
Speaker 11: story to make Penny look guilty, probably to make the

3165
02:53:03,520 --> 02:53:09,320
Speaker 11: real Penny look like a bad guy in real life.

3166
02:53:09,600 --> 02:53:15,480
Speaker 6: Objection, objection, objection in your honor, object mods mods not yeah,

3167
02:53:15,520 --> 02:53:18,280
Speaker 6: not great because also yeah, it also like for people

3168
02:53:18,280 --> 02:53:20,600
Speaker 6: who are like looking at this as a parallel to Jordania,

3169
02:53:20,800 --> 02:53:22,640
Speaker 6: like oh, why do they change so many details to

3170
02:53:22,640 --> 02:53:24,720
Speaker 6: make him look even more guilty, and like, no, that's

3171
02:53:24,760 --> 02:53:25,720
Speaker 6: not what's happening at all.

3172
02:53:25,879 --> 02:53:29,119
Speaker 11: Like I think they did a disservice to that story

3173
02:53:29,240 --> 02:53:31,680
Speaker 11: by changing so many elements. I mean, like you said,

3174
02:53:31,720 --> 02:53:34,240
Speaker 11: there's there's a conversation to be had about the ethics

3175
02:53:34,280 --> 02:53:37,720
Speaker 11: of depicting the story as entertainment period. Yeah, but if

3176
02:53:37,760 --> 02:53:39,160
Speaker 11: they're going to do it, and they've been doing it

3177
02:53:39,200 --> 02:53:40,960
Speaker 11: for thirty years, right, that's just what Law and Order does.

3178
02:53:41,000 --> 02:53:42,720
Speaker 11: If they're going to do it, I think they have

3179
02:53:42,720 --> 02:53:48,560
Speaker 11: a responsibility to not do this, to not do this.

3180
02:53:49,040 --> 02:53:53,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, well again, they have bigger fish to fry since

3181
02:53:53,200 --> 02:53:57,640
Speaker 6: there's that upcoming worse than January sixth attack head led

3182
02:53:57,680 --> 02:54:00,440
Speaker 6: by these MMA guys who are stockpiling this explosive, so

3183
02:54:00,720 --> 02:54:02,080
Speaker 6: watch out for that, I guess.

3184
02:54:02,440 --> 02:54:03,720
Speaker 11: Yeah, I guess I'll have to watch the rest of

3185
02:54:03,720 --> 02:54:06,320
Speaker 11: the season to see if the MMA gym blows up

3186
02:54:06,320 --> 02:54:06,760
Speaker 11: New York.

3187
02:54:07,160 --> 02:54:10,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, I will not be until they release a direct

3188
02:54:10,080 --> 02:54:13,200
Speaker 6: follow up, So I think that doesn't for us today.

3189
02:54:13,240 --> 02:54:16,960
Speaker 6: This is already way too This episode's already long episode.

3190
02:54:16,959 --> 02:54:20,120
Speaker 6: It's already longer the Law and Order episode, So that

3191
02:54:20,160 --> 02:54:21,960
Speaker 6: doesn't for us today. Thank you for listening. If you

3192
02:54:21,959 --> 02:54:23,959
Speaker 6: want to check out my review of Civil War, it's

3193
02:54:24,080 --> 02:54:25,960
Speaker 6: very short, but it's kind of to the point. I'm

3194
02:54:25,959 --> 02:54:29,400
Speaker 6: on letterboxed at Hungry bow Tie, and then the reviews

3195
02:54:29,400 --> 02:54:32,400
Speaker 6: that I liked, which are underneath my own review, go

3196
02:54:32,480 --> 02:54:34,920
Speaker 6: into more depth about kind of the problems with that

3197
02:54:35,000 --> 02:54:39,520
Speaker 6: film in my opinion and other people's opinion. Anyway, Where

3198
02:54:39,520 --> 02:54:42,039
Speaker 6: can people find you online? Molly Oh?

3199
02:54:42,200 --> 02:54:46,720
Speaker 11: I am on Twitter at Socialist Dog Mom and my

3200
02:54:46,800 --> 02:54:49,720
Speaker 11: newsletter The Devil's Advocates on Ghost and Think Us. That's

3201
02:54:49,760 --> 02:54:54,240
Speaker 11: it for me. Oh, I'm podcasting sometimes now, no objections

3202
02:54:54,280 --> 02:54:57,880
Speaker 11: for me. Yeah, I guess by the time you're listening

3203
02:54:57,920 --> 02:55:00,200
Speaker 11: to this, you can listen to my latest episode the

3204
02:55:00,280 --> 02:55:01,519
Speaker 11: show yesterday.

3205
02:55:03,000 --> 02:55:11,759
Speaker 6: All right, see you on the other side.

3206
02:55:19,040 --> 02:55:21,040
Speaker 5: Hi, everyone, and welcome to the show. It to me

3207
02:55:21,200 --> 02:55:24,240
Speaker 5: James today, and I'm joined by doctor maung Zani, who's

3208
02:55:24,280 --> 02:55:27,359
Speaker 5: an activist and scholar with thirty five years of experience

3209
02:55:28,040 --> 02:55:31,480
Speaker 5: advocating against genocide and for freedom and Burma and one

3210
02:55:31,560 --> 02:55:35,280
Speaker 5: of the founding members of the anarchist activist platform Forces

3211
02:55:35,280 --> 02:55:38,240
Speaker 5: of Renewal Southeast Asia. Welcome to the show, doctor Journey.

3212
02:55:39,080 --> 02:55:41,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, yeah, it's.

3213
02:55:41,160 --> 02:55:43,640
Speaker 5: A pleasure to have you here. So and also I

3214
02:55:43,640 --> 02:55:47,800
Speaker 5: should mention Nobel Peace Prize nominee as of as yesterday

3215
02:55:47,920 --> 02:55:49,600
Speaker 5: or the day before the congratulations on that.

3216
02:55:49,720 --> 02:55:52,360
Speaker 6: Also, yeah, thanks so much.

3217
02:55:52,680 --> 02:55:56,480
Speaker 7: It happened in January, before the deadline, and so I

3218
02:55:56,600 --> 02:56:01,720
Speaker 7: just released the announcement you know for the Burmese New

3219
02:56:01,840 --> 02:56:05,800
Speaker 7: Year you know occasion, because yes, you know, the country

3220
02:56:05,800 --> 02:56:12,440
Speaker 7: has been torn apart by you know, armed revolutions genocide,

3221
02:56:13,240 --> 02:56:19,640
Speaker 7: the racism, anti Muslim violence, and so thought like this

3222
02:56:19,879 --> 02:56:25,080
Speaker 7: may be a tiny sliver or positive thing. And so

3223
02:56:25,480 --> 02:56:31,240
Speaker 7: if activists want to have, you know, there's some sustenance

3224
02:56:31,360 --> 02:56:36,480
Speaker 7: for their grassroots revolution, here's somebody who's who has been

3225
02:56:36,560 --> 02:56:40,320
Speaker 7: grassroots for thirty five years. So that's why I released it.

3226
02:56:40,360 --> 02:56:43,359
Speaker 7: But that's you know, the secondary anyway.

3227
02:56:43,800 --> 02:56:46,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, I know, it's if it can get the world

3228
02:56:46,800 --> 02:56:49,920
Speaker 5: to look at what's happening and pay attention, then I

3229
02:56:49,920 --> 02:56:53,000
Speaker 5: think it's a good thing. So one thing I wanted

3230
02:56:53,040 --> 02:56:54,840
Speaker 5: to ask you about today to start off with, is

3231
02:56:55,320 --> 02:56:58,520
Speaker 5: something that when I talk to people in the US

3232
02:56:58,600 --> 02:57:01,960
Speaker 5: and the UK about the revolution and the cure in Meanma,

3233
02:57:02,080 --> 02:57:06,959
Speaker 5: the context of like ultranationalist Buddhism is one that is

3234
02:57:07,080 --> 02:57:09,720
Speaker 5: very hard, I think for people who don't have a

3235
02:57:09,760 --> 02:57:14,080
Speaker 5: great understanding of how that works to understand. So I

3236
02:57:14,120 --> 02:57:16,560
Speaker 5: was wondering if we could start off with you explaining

3237
02:57:16,680 --> 02:57:21,199
Speaker 5: like this, this long and painful history of like ultranationalist

3238
02:57:21,240 --> 02:57:25,879
Speaker 5: Buddhism in Myanmar and how it's empowered the genocide of

3239
02:57:25,959 --> 02:57:29,199
Speaker 5: Muslim people and also the hunter today.

3240
02:57:29,879 --> 02:57:33,840
Speaker 7: Well, when we talk about you know, ultra nationalism or

3241
02:57:34,120 --> 02:57:39,160
Speaker 7: various strengths of nationalism. I think we need to periodize

3242
02:57:39,840 --> 02:57:46,280
Speaker 7: or put in different historical periods because you know, the

3243
02:57:46,400 --> 02:57:58,039
Speaker 7: term nationalism was a progressive, emancipatory ideological umbrella when the

3244
02:57:58,120 --> 02:58:03,520
Speaker 7: local society or primarily Buddhists and also other people, but

3245
02:58:04,480 --> 02:58:10,520
Speaker 7: the majority political systems were built on the foundation of

3246
02:58:10,840 --> 02:58:15,160
Speaker 7: Buddhism in Burma, you know, like different kingdoms. But when

3247
02:58:15,640 --> 02:58:19,400
Speaker 7: when when we were under the British for one hundred

3248
02:58:19,400 --> 02:58:27,880
Speaker 7: and twenty four years, the you know internally warring Buddhist kingdoms,

3249
02:58:27,920 --> 02:58:31,880
Speaker 7: you know, like Rakine and Morn and Burmese and Sean,

3250
02:58:32,800 --> 02:58:39,480
Speaker 7: they all at Buddhist kingdoms and they formed this oppositional

3251
02:58:40,160 --> 02:58:47,240
Speaker 7: ideological identity as you know, nationalists Buddhists that would confront

3252
02:58:47,320 --> 02:58:52,480
Speaker 7: the alien colonial British rule. So in that sense, you know,

3253
02:58:52,600 --> 02:58:57,000
Speaker 7: nationalism was not a bad thing at all because it

3254
02:58:57,240 --> 02:59:03,440
Speaker 7: was you know, primarily for image concipatory struggle. But then

3255
02:59:03,560 --> 02:59:08,480
Speaker 7: like you know, then fast forward post colonial independence period

3256
02:59:09,080 --> 02:59:13,480
Speaker 7: nineteen forty eight onward. Right when when the British rule

3257
02:59:13,720 --> 02:59:16,680
Speaker 7: was removed at the end of the Second World War

3258
02:59:17,560 --> 02:59:23,920
Speaker 7: three years after the the oppositional Buddhist nationalists, you know,

3259
02:59:24,080 --> 02:59:30,680
Speaker 7: umbrella identity collapse, right so Raklines want to full ground

3260
02:59:30,760 --> 02:59:39,000
Speaker 7: their ethnic city given that the main oppositional commonality, the

3261
02:59:39,320 --> 02:59:43,520
Speaker 7: colonial colonialism, was no more. And so that's when the

3262
02:59:44,360 --> 02:59:53,480
Speaker 7: ethnicity was reinjected, you know, into the ideological formation. And interestingly,

3263
02:59:53,680 --> 02:59:57,280
Speaker 7: as you would know as well, the end of the

3264
02:59:57,320 --> 03:00:00,680
Speaker 7: Second World War was followed by the Coal War, right.

3265
03:00:01,200 --> 03:00:03,200
Speaker 7: And on the one hand, like you've got you know,

3266
03:00:03,320 --> 03:00:09,959
Speaker 7: godless communists, atheistic Russia, a Soviet Union and in China.

3267
03:00:10,400 --> 03:00:15,320
Speaker 7: And then on the other hand, you know, essentially Christian West,

3268
03:00:15,600 --> 03:00:19,560
Speaker 7: you know, or at least allegedly Christian West. And in

3269
03:00:19,720 --> 03:00:31,040
Speaker 7: that context, the alternationalism was essentially encouraged to buy the

3270
03:00:31,080 --> 03:00:34,480
Speaker 7: by the United States and allies. You know, like if

3271
03:00:34,520 --> 03:00:36,720
Speaker 7: you that this is nothing new. If you look at

3272
03:00:37,760 --> 03:00:43,400
Speaker 7: the rights of like a socialist governments across the Middle East,

3273
03:00:43,640 --> 03:00:47,240
Speaker 7: you know, primarily Muslim Middle East, you would find like

3274
03:00:47,320 --> 03:00:50,800
Speaker 7: the rights of Muslim brotherhood and you know what we

3275
03:00:50,920 --> 03:00:56,160
Speaker 7: call today fundamentalist islamicist right, but that you know, the

3276
03:00:56,200 --> 03:01:04,320
Speaker 7: Buddhist with at no central orientation were encouraged you know,

3277
03:01:04,440 --> 03:01:10,280
Speaker 7: by the United States through grants and aid. The same

3278
03:01:10,320 --> 03:01:13,519
Speaker 7: way like you know, the rights of you know, fundamentalist

3279
03:01:13,720 --> 03:01:19,560
Speaker 7: Islam was encouraged or or midwifi with the US money.

3280
03:01:20,280 --> 03:01:25,120
Speaker 7: Because this is important because through the eyes of the

3281
03:01:25,240 --> 03:01:34,640
Speaker 7: coal war strategists, the only way that egalitarian leftist ideologies

3282
03:01:34,800 --> 03:01:41,199
Speaker 7: could be confronted was through this, the faith based ideology.

3283
03:01:42,400 --> 03:01:47,480
Speaker 7: So I don't want I'm not saying that the Burmese

3284
03:01:48,360 --> 03:01:53,360
Speaker 7: nationalists and also nationalists were not responsible for their own growth.

3285
03:01:54,160 --> 03:01:57,039
Speaker 7: But I also what I'm saying is that there was

3286
03:01:57,120 --> 03:02:04,120
Speaker 7: a larger global context in which this monster was hatched. Yes,

3287
03:02:04,160 --> 03:02:09,000
Speaker 7: and so, but even you know, like the going back

3288
03:02:09,040 --> 03:02:12,800
Speaker 7: to the nineteen thirties, after the War Street collapse, you know,

3289
03:02:13,000 --> 03:02:18,040
Speaker 7: then like you know, the the recession pervaded across the world,

3290
03:02:18,160 --> 03:02:24,039
Speaker 7: and colonial economies like Burma with massive agricultural explorer economy,

3291
03:02:24,959 --> 03:02:33,240
Speaker 7: the British founded expedient to basically turn to a religious

3292
03:02:33,280 --> 03:02:37,400
Speaker 7: divide and rule, and like you know, the Burmese Buddhist

3293
03:02:38,520 --> 03:02:44,720
Speaker 7: laboring classes were pitted against the Indian laboring classes of

3294
03:02:45,160 --> 03:02:49,640
Speaker 7: different religions, but that was more like the Buddhist nationalists

3295
03:02:49,760 --> 03:02:53,640
Speaker 7: and non nationalists versus you know, like what we were

3296
03:02:53,680 --> 03:02:57,520
Speaker 7: called today migrant laborers from India, you know, under the

3297
03:02:58,000 --> 03:03:01,760
Speaker 7: because we were part of British Empire. After the British left,

3298
03:03:02,560 --> 03:03:08,560
Speaker 7: the Muslims began to be scapegoaded, and then finally I

3299
03:03:08,560 --> 03:03:11,800
Speaker 7: think like the we cannot understand yes, you know very

3300
03:03:11,800 --> 03:03:17,160
Speaker 7: well the nationalism or alter nationalism without some kind of

3301
03:03:17,280 --> 03:03:24,039
Speaker 7: political organization. And that organization is what we call Burmese

3302
03:03:24,480 --> 03:03:29,720
Speaker 7: political or state, whether it's controlled by the civilian elected

3303
03:03:30,480 --> 03:03:37,920
Speaker 7: politicians or the military military as an organization, political state's

3304
03:03:38,040 --> 03:03:42,879
Speaker 7: always there, whether it's you know, fascism in Nazi Germany

3305
03:03:43,120 --> 03:03:47,440
Speaker 7: or Italy or Japan or like you know, the genocidal

3306
03:03:48,080 --> 03:03:54,400
Speaker 7: Mimah about fifteen years ago. State was the engine. Actually

3307
03:03:54,680 --> 03:03:59,520
Speaker 7: it's not the people that were generating this toxic ideology.

3308
03:03:59,600 --> 03:04:05,800
Speaker 7: It was state that was inventing, manipulating and mobilizing towards

3309
03:04:05,800 --> 03:04:07,000
Speaker 7: their sinister end.

3310
03:04:08,040 --> 03:04:11,520
Speaker 5: Right Yeah, And it's the divide and rules strategy and

3311
03:04:11,560 --> 03:04:15,280
Speaker 5: the full I guess the falling back to this these

3312
03:04:15,360 --> 03:04:19,680
Speaker 5: kind of colonial methods of rule is something that I

3313
03:04:19,720 --> 03:04:22,960
Speaker 5: guess I want people to understand is still happening in

3314
03:04:23,520 --> 03:04:28,240
Speaker 5: Burma or Myanmar. Right we see the military that the

3315
03:04:28,360 --> 03:04:31,600
Speaker 5: junta doing it right now, right like attempting to ferment

3316
03:04:32,280 --> 03:04:35,960
Speaker 5: inter ethnic conflicts to prevent the formation of a popular

3317
03:04:36,000 --> 03:04:38,920
Speaker 5: front or a coalition against against their rule.

3318
03:04:39,000 --> 03:04:43,600
Speaker 7: Right, yes, I think the here the one observation I

3319
03:04:43,600 --> 03:04:48,160
Speaker 7: want to make is a you know, independence from Britain,

3320
03:04:49,440 --> 03:04:52,959
Speaker 7: restoration of say like you know, more than form of

3321
03:04:53,480 --> 03:04:59,959
Speaker 7: sovereignty to Burmese people was not a clean break from

3322
03:05:00,120 --> 03:05:05,800
Speaker 7: the colonial past. Because the state in Burma as it

3323
03:05:06,000 --> 03:05:11,240
Speaker 7: exists or it has existed over the last seventy plus years,

3324
03:05:12,000 --> 03:05:18,080
Speaker 7: remains a colonial state. It was an instrument of economic

3325
03:05:18,280 --> 03:05:27,200
Speaker 7: exploitation or racialized or ethnicized administration. And all the security

3326
03:05:28,160 --> 03:05:34,880
Speaker 7: laws and you know, ordinances and whatnot, they were formulated

3327
03:05:35,879 --> 03:05:40,760
Speaker 7: with the interest of the ruling colonial interests or power

3328
03:05:41,080 --> 03:05:45,599
Speaker 7: like at the time British and what the what independence

3329
03:05:45,640 --> 03:05:53,120
Speaker 7: did was really transfer of this internally racialized entity we

3330
03:05:53,240 --> 03:05:59,960
Speaker 7: call state from the white man's hand to the Brahman's hand,

3331
03:06:00,480 --> 03:06:05,200
Speaker 7: you know, the Burmese. So so when when you the

3332
03:06:05,320 --> 03:06:12,120
Speaker 7: state wasn't actually finding it difficult to foment racial or

3333
03:06:12,280 --> 03:06:16,039
Speaker 7: inter we don't use the term race here, inter ethnic

3334
03:06:16,280 --> 03:06:22,959
Speaker 7: conflict or inter religious conflict. The state itself embodied this

3335
03:06:23,640 --> 03:06:29,400
Speaker 7: divide and rule outlook because it remains internally colonial, you

3336
03:06:29,440 --> 03:06:33,039
Speaker 7: see what I mean? And so so I think that

3337
03:06:34,000 --> 03:06:38,320
Speaker 7: it isn't simply the policies of the you know, X

3338
03:06:38,480 --> 03:06:43,240
Speaker 7: y Z regimes that have rude Burma since independence. But

3339
03:06:43,400 --> 03:06:50,000
Speaker 7: the state itself is conducive to, or you know, supportive

3340
03:06:50,080 --> 03:06:56,480
Speaker 7: of this kind of inter religious and inter ethnic contest

3341
03:06:56,959 --> 03:07:03,240
Speaker 7: because there there are no principles of equality as as

3342
03:07:03,400 --> 03:07:07,960
Speaker 7: ethnic or religious communities or there there there was no

3343
03:07:08,120 --> 03:07:14,600
Speaker 7: sense of you know, horizontal or vertical fairness among the

3344
03:07:14,600 --> 03:07:20,160
Speaker 7: political class and the majoritarian agrarian communities, and so the

3345
03:07:20,200 --> 03:07:23,640
Speaker 7: state is self problematic. Yeah, that's why, like you know

3346
03:07:23,959 --> 03:07:29,039
Speaker 7: that when ol San Suci came to you know, semi power,

3347
03:07:29,120 --> 03:07:32,440
Speaker 7: because the military is still controlled or backseat drove for

3348
03:07:32,520 --> 03:07:37,840
Speaker 7: a regime, she found it really difficult to maneuver because

3349
03:07:38,440 --> 03:07:44,800
Speaker 7: she was straight jacketed in this you know internally colonial shell.

3350
03:07:45,440 --> 03:07:46,480
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah.

3351
03:07:46,600 --> 03:07:48,680
Speaker 7: And then so so I think, of course, like you know,

3352
03:07:48,720 --> 03:07:52,800
Speaker 7: you're it's correct what the military is doing now, say

3353
03:07:52,840 --> 03:07:58,560
Speaker 7: in Racine State, where they committed genocide against Rainia Muslims.

3354
03:07:59,040 --> 03:08:01,240
Speaker 7: You know, they drove out you know, close to eight

3355
03:08:01,320 --> 03:08:07,320
Speaker 7: hundred thousand Rohindas of genocidally across the border to Bangladesh

3356
03:08:07,360 --> 03:08:12,520
Speaker 7: in two thousand and seventeen and also sixteen. They are

3357
03:08:12,600 --> 03:08:19,520
Speaker 7: now army and training, and you know, forcively conscripting able

3358
03:08:19,640 --> 03:08:25,000
Speaker 7: body young Rhindja men into their ranks and to fight

3359
03:08:25,120 --> 03:08:32,520
Speaker 7: the progressively militarily stronger recind Buddhist Arakan army. That's just

3360
03:08:32,600 --> 03:08:35,680
Speaker 7: one area. But you know, if you look at other

3361
03:08:35,920 --> 03:08:40,520
Speaker 7: regions like shun Stay, for instance, there's an extremely complex

3362
03:08:40,800 --> 03:08:46,080
Speaker 7: ethnic contestations happening. Right, so what like political scientists call

3363
03:08:46,200 --> 03:08:50,080
Speaker 7: like a horizontal violence is taking place, and so it's

3364
03:08:50,120 --> 03:08:55,840
Speaker 7: like there are multiple conflicts at work, you know, but

3365
03:08:56,640 --> 03:08:59,480
Speaker 7: of course like the military is number one, you know,

3366
03:08:59,600 --> 03:09:06,400
Speaker 7: problem maker, but they're also lesser evil forms of like

3367
03:09:06,640 --> 03:09:09,240
Speaker 7: political and ethnic conflicts taking place.

3368
03:09:20,200 --> 03:09:22,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think, yeah, it's very much against Shan states.

3369
03:09:22,680 --> 03:09:27,320
Speaker 5: I think particularly complicated and interesting as we look at

3370
03:09:27,440 --> 03:09:32,560
Speaker 5: the situation now in the different like both in the

3371
03:09:32,680 --> 03:09:37,160
Speaker 5: liberated areas or the areas without control of the like

3372
03:09:37,280 --> 03:09:39,680
Speaker 5: NAPI or state that they may still be controlled kind

3373
03:09:39,720 --> 03:09:42,840
Speaker 5: of in a sense by other kind of like pseudo states.

3374
03:09:42,879 --> 03:09:46,560
Speaker 5: I guess are you familiar with this? There's this argument?

3375
03:09:46,680 --> 03:09:50,599
Speaker 5: I think it's probably like articulated. I'm sure you are articulated,

3376
03:09:50,879 --> 03:09:55,120
Speaker 5: most notably by James C. Scott of like and he

3377
03:09:55,480 --> 03:09:57,640
Speaker 5: looks at the example of me and Ma has been

3378
03:09:57,840 --> 03:10:01,720
Speaker 5: rightly criticized in some areas of like the mountains, as

3379
03:10:01,760 --> 03:10:06,240
Speaker 5: an area where people can I guess, choose to opt

3380
03:10:06,360 --> 03:10:09,240
Speaker 5: out of the state or or to be where the

3381
03:10:09,280 --> 03:10:12,400
Speaker 5: state is not completely consolidated, I guess, and never has been.

3382
03:10:13,360 --> 03:10:16,039
Speaker 7: Yeah, I know, I know Gym's work, you know, like

3383
03:10:16,200 --> 03:10:22,000
Speaker 7: the the he divides people into valleys and you know, mountains.

3384
03:10:22,320 --> 03:10:25,680
Speaker 7: You know what's interesting is like you know, it's it's

3385
03:10:26,080 --> 03:10:29,320
Speaker 7: it's a lot more complex than this, you know, the

3386
03:10:30,160 --> 03:10:34,440
Speaker 7: the dualistic understanding of like hill people versus plain people,

3387
03:10:34,560 --> 03:10:38,400
Speaker 7: because you know, like even in the in the hills

3388
03:10:38,440 --> 03:10:41,240
Speaker 7: that there are you know, highlands and and and there

3389
03:10:41,240 --> 03:10:42,520
Speaker 7: are plateaus and.

3390
03:10:42,640 --> 03:10:45,200
Speaker 6: You know the you know and so.

3391
03:10:45,879 --> 03:10:49,760
Speaker 7: But also I think like that I find it more

3392
03:10:49,959 --> 03:10:54,440
Speaker 7: useful to look at this not through geographic lens, but

3393
03:10:54,600 --> 03:10:58,480
Speaker 7: through the colonial lens, because you've got the colonial state,

3394
03:10:58,560 --> 03:11:02,320
Speaker 7: because like you know, Gym is essentially anti status. But

3395
03:11:02,440 --> 03:11:05,880
Speaker 7: as a matter of value, yeah, I am with him,

3396
03:11:06,000 --> 03:11:10,920
Speaker 7: you know, because I'm bent on the anarchism as my value,

3397
03:11:10,959 --> 03:11:16,640
Speaker 7: you know. But analytically, I think, but given the fact

3398
03:11:16,680 --> 03:11:22,359
Speaker 7: that the colonial state continues to live on and continue

3399
03:11:22,400 --> 03:11:27,880
Speaker 7: to haunt the Burmese society. I think, like the way

3400
03:11:27,920 --> 03:11:31,360
Speaker 7: I look at it is like you know, center and peripheree, right,

3401
03:11:32,840 --> 03:11:37,400
Speaker 7: irrespective of the altitude. I mean, at this point, like

3402
03:11:37,560 --> 03:11:43,560
Speaker 7: altitudes no longer really strategically important because you know, we're

3403
03:11:43,600 --> 03:11:46,520
Speaker 7: we live in the age of drones and like you know,

3404
03:11:47,000 --> 03:11:53,080
Speaker 7: MiG twenty nine and sixteen, mountains are no longer cover

3405
03:11:53,280 --> 03:11:54,560
Speaker 7: you see what I mean, right, Yeah?

3406
03:11:54,640 --> 03:11:59,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, the construct of the mountains as like nonstate space

3407
03:11:59,840 --> 03:12:02,640
Speaker 5: or place where you can go to choose to be nonstate.

3408
03:12:02,680 --> 03:12:06,840
Speaker 5: I think like it's interesting to hear young Bamar PDFs

3409
03:12:07,680 --> 03:12:10,520
Speaker 5: fighters now be like, oh, I chose to go to

3410
03:12:10,560 --> 03:12:13,400
Speaker 5: the mountains, even though it sits very much alongside that

3411
03:12:13,400 --> 03:12:17,320
Speaker 5: Canelian analysis that you had of like the wild people

3412
03:12:17,920 --> 03:12:21,520
Speaker 5: or like quote unquote savagery, right, which or when I

3413
03:12:21,560 --> 03:12:24,840
Speaker 5: speak to Bamar people who are like twenty one now

3414
03:12:24,840 --> 03:12:28,320
Speaker 5: who joined the PDFs at eighteen seventeen after the coup,

3415
03:12:28,800 --> 03:12:32,040
Speaker 5: they had all been very much indoctrinated with the idea

3416
03:12:32,240 --> 03:12:35,520
Speaker 5: of non Bamar people as quote savages or wild people

3417
03:12:35,560 --> 03:12:38,600
Speaker 5: who lived in the quote mountains or jungles, and like

3418
03:12:38,680 --> 03:12:41,840
Speaker 5: choosing to go there to escape the state. I think

3419
03:12:42,080 --> 03:12:46,200
Speaker 5: it's really interesting to hear like that analysis reproduced in

3420
03:12:46,560 --> 03:12:49,359
Speaker 5: their storytelling of their own lives.

3421
03:12:50,720 --> 03:12:54,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, I think you know that it has

3422
03:12:54,120 --> 03:12:59,520
Speaker 7: been in the Burmese political psyche. You move away from

3423
03:12:59,560 --> 03:13:04,599
Speaker 7: the Senate and you are more autonomous, and you are

3424
03:13:04,840 --> 03:13:08,640
Speaker 7: you know, freer from the right, you know, the reach

3425
03:13:08,760 --> 03:13:13,400
Speaker 7: of the center, right, because we we still have this

3426
03:13:14,440 --> 03:13:18,080
Speaker 7: center periphee mentality. Yeah, I mean you know culturally, yes,

3427
03:13:18,200 --> 03:13:22,320
Speaker 7: you're absolutely right. Uh, the way people in the center,

3428
03:13:22,600 --> 03:13:26,519
Speaker 7: like the group that I belong to, Burmese Buddhist majority,

3429
03:13:27,440 --> 03:13:30,800
Speaker 7: we look down on people that are on the periphree right,

3430
03:13:30,840 --> 03:13:33,480
Speaker 7: that the way people dress. I mean it's also like

3431
03:13:33,600 --> 03:13:38,480
Speaker 7: you know, the rural and urban divide as well, you know,

3432
03:13:38,560 --> 03:13:42,640
Speaker 7: the even like those who grew up in the in

3433
03:13:42,720 --> 03:13:46,600
Speaker 7: the non majoritarians, you know regions, you know what I

3434
03:13:46,640 --> 03:13:50,240
Speaker 7: call it, the peripherys of the Burmese colonial state. When

3435
03:13:50,280 --> 03:13:53,600
Speaker 7: they settle in Rangoon or Mandally or or you know

3436
03:13:53,680 --> 03:13:59,720
Speaker 7: major urban areas, they they begin to dress, they begin

3437
03:13:59,760 --> 03:14:03,960
Speaker 7: to I mean, they necessarily adapt to the the the

3438
03:14:04,520 --> 03:14:09,279
Speaker 7: Burmese way of life, the majority dominant you know, customs

3439
03:14:09,320 --> 03:14:14,160
Speaker 7: and whatnot, and so so I still stick with the

3440
03:14:14,680 --> 03:14:20,959
Speaker 7: you know this whole colonial relations the organizationally and psychologically.

3441
03:14:21,800 --> 03:14:25,880
Speaker 7: The yeah, I mean also that we have the vocabulary.

3442
03:14:26,480 --> 03:14:29,680
Speaker 7: If you want to oppose a central state or the

3443
03:14:29,840 --> 03:14:34,560
Speaker 7: central regime, we say, we take refuge in the forest, right,

3444
03:14:35,200 --> 03:14:37,920
Speaker 7: And we take refuge in the forest or under the

3445
03:14:38,000 --> 03:14:44,280
Speaker 7: tree against the scorching sun or like pouring monsoon rain right,

3446
03:14:44,760 --> 03:14:49,240
Speaker 7: or the evil center right. And so so it's all

3447
03:14:49,280 --> 03:14:52,280
Speaker 7: built in. It's in the language even you know, like

3448
03:14:53,160 --> 03:14:59,039
Speaker 7: organizing an armed revolt or going underground is described as

3449
03:14:59,560 --> 03:15:04,600
Speaker 7: taking refuge in the forest the jungle, you know. And

3450
03:15:04,600 --> 03:15:07,720
Speaker 7: and and what's what's interesting though, is like you know,

3451
03:15:07,800 --> 03:15:12,440
Speaker 7: from the state's perspective, if you're taking refuge in the

3452
03:15:12,560 --> 03:15:16,480
Speaker 7: in the jungle, of course, like that's treason us and

3453
03:15:16,800 --> 03:15:21,920
Speaker 7: you know, that is an act of criminality. But if

3454
03:15:21,959 --> 03:15:25,840
Speaker 7: you if you use that language, or if you if

3455
03:15:25,840 --> 03:15:29,680
Speaker 7: you do exactly the same thing literally physically, if you're

3456
03:15:29,720 --> 03:15:35,879
Speaker 7: a Buddhist monk, you know, you you are considered holier

3457
03:15:35,920 --> 03:15:39,840
Speaker 7: than monks that continue to live in the city, you

3458
03:15:39,840 --> 03:15:42,280
Speaker 7: know what I mean. So you go, you know, the

3459
03:15:42,440 --> 03:15:47,119
Speaker 7: forest monks versus like a city, town or village monk. Right.

3460
03:15:47,520 --> 03:15:54,640
Speaker 7: So this is quite a fascinating linguistic you know, twist

3461
03:15:54,720 --> 03:15:57,520
Speaker 7: here on one hand, like you know, but from the

3462
03:15:57,600 --> 03:16:05,560
Speaker 7: revolutionaries perspective, if you're in the jungle, you grow certain

3463
03:16:05,920 --> 03:16:09,640
Speaker 7: aura around you. You're in the jungle, right, and you

3464
03:16:09,680 --> 03:16:12,680
Speaker 7: don't you don't wear jeens or you don't look like

3465
03:16:12,800 --> 03:16:17,320
Speaker 7: city people by you're wearing you know, like the fatigue,

3466
03:16:17,400 --> 03:16:23,640
Speaker 7: army fatigue and you know, jungle the paraphernalia. And as

3467
03:16:23,640 --> 03:16:26,760
Speaker 7: a revolutionary that's like, you know, that's I check with

3468
03:16:26,879 --> 03:16:27,480
Speaker 7: our time.

3469
03:16:27,600 --> 03:16:28,200
Speaker 1: You see what I mean.

3470
03:16:28,600 --> 03:16:33,000
Speaker 7: Revolutions start or organize around jungles, you know, I mean,

3471
03:16:33,760 --> 03:16:36,280
Speaker 7: so it has nothing to do with altitude. You see

3472
03:16:36,280 --> 03:16:36,680
Speaker 7: what I mean?

3473
03:16:37,000 --> 03:16:40,039
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just yeah, I like that periphery

3474
03:16:40,040 --> 03:16:40,840
Speaker 5: colonial model.

3475
03:16:51,680 --> 03:16:54,039
Speaker 6: So I wonder like, I think people who.

3476
03:16:53,920 --> 03:16:57,800
Speaker 5: Listen to this will both be very much like amenable

3477
03:16:57,879 --> 03:17:02,359
Speaker 5: to anarchism and see the problems that state societies create

3478
03:17:02,680 --> 03:17:06,480
Speaker 5: and also to the revolution in me Emma and to

3479
03:17:06,560 --> 03:17:08,720
Speaker 5: the young people and then not so young people who

3480
03:17:08,720 --> 03:17:12,880
Speaker 5: are fighting it. I wonder like, how do we build

3481
03:17:12,879 --> 03:17:16,240
Speaker 5: a future for Memma that doesn't replicate this colonial corpora

3482
03:17:16,280 --> 03:17:19,440
Speaker 5: fhery model that doesn't the scene quiton of the state

3483
03:17:19,560 --> 03:17:23,400
Speaker 5: that's centered in Napidor is like the it's this use

3484
03:17:23,440 --> 03:17:25,760
Speaker 5: of violence to control and this colonial relationship.

3485
03:17:25,800 --> 03:17:27,599
Speaker 6: Right, so how do we not replicate.

3486
03:17:27,200 --> 03:17:28,760
Speaker 5: That in the post revolution future?

3487
03:17:29,959 --> 03:17:34,680
Speaker 7: Well, I think you know, there's a danger in or

3488
03:17:34,720 --> 03:17:40,279
Speaker 7: should I say, the romanticizing the mini states or substates,

3489
03:17:40,360 --> 03:17:52,200
Speaker 7: right if establishing autonomous states does not confront the colonial

3490
03:17:52,440 --> 03:17:57,840
Speaker 7: nature of the state from which these meaning states you know,

3491
03:17:58,160 --> 03:18:05,240
Speaker 7: emerge as oppositional entities. In other words, whatever administrative structures

3492
03:18:06,000 --> 03:18:12,720
Speaker 7: that you know, the the the current armed revolutionary organizations

3493
03:18:12,760 --> 03:18:18,000
Speaker 7: set up, they need to first make sure they don't

3494
03:18:18,200 --> 03:18:23,680
Speaker 7: replicate that the internally colonial nature of the state that

3495
03:18:23,720 --> 03:18:27,640
Speaker 7: they have been fighting and to some degree of like

3496
03:18:27,760 --> 03:18:35,720
Speaker 7: success at this point in history, right, because the coloniality

3497
03:18:36,959 --> 03:18:43,200
Speaker 7: is very much connected with the idea of pure ethnic identity,

3498
03:18:43,520 --> 03:18:47,000
Speaker 7: you see what I mean, and in this day and age,

3499
03:18:47,080 --> 03:18:49,280
Speaker 7: I mean whether I mean you've been to current State

3500
03:18:49,360 --> 03:18:51,879
Speaker 7: and other places in Burma and and you know in

3501
03:18:51,920 --> 03:18:54,640
Speaker 7: the Middle East at Curtis and so. But they're they're

3502
03:18:54,920 --> 03:19:01,440
Speaker 7: they're always like, you know, the idea of pure ethnic identity, right,

3503
03:19:01,480 --> 03:19:05,160
Speaker 7: even if you're a revolutionary. But but but the truth,

3504
03:19:05,240 --> 03:19:08,920
Speaker 7: the truth is, you know, even small places you will

3505
03:19:08,959 --> 03:19:12,840
Speaker 7: find Muslims and Hindus and Christians or people with different

3506
03:19:12,920 --> 03:19:18,039
Speaker 7: migratory histories and class background. You flettened them into a

3507
03:19:18,080 --> 03:19:22,760
Speaker 7: single ethnic identity, right that well, that that that in

3508
03:19:22,840 --> 03:19:26,880
Speaker 7: and I mean self perception, we are a new Kuran

3509
03:19:27,040 --> 03:19:31,640
Speaker 7: state or Karany state or Kachin state, right, even Kachin

3510
03:19:31,800 --> 03:19:36,840
Speaker 7: the late the term label the label Kachin in the north.

3511
03:19:37,480 --> 03:19:39,560
Speaker 7: You know, they have about like the three or four

3512
03:19:39,680 --> 03:19:44,520
Speaker 7: major groups there, and and some resent being referred to

3513
03:19:44,680 --> 03:19:48,119
Speaker 7: as Kitchin, but they go along because they are against

3514
03:19:48,160 --> 03:19:53,360
Speaker 7: the more evil CenTra, a Burmese Buddhist state, right right,

3515
03:19:53,440 --> 03:19:55,680
Speaker 7: so so so so so that's why when I when

3516
03:19:55,680 --> 03:19:58,240
Speaker 7: I explain to you, you know, at the outset of

3517
03:19:58,280 --> 03:20:04,520
Speaker 7: this the conversation, this like your Buddhist identities merged as

3518
03:20:04,560 --> 03:20:11,600
Speaker 7: an oppositional umbrella, anti colonial identity against the British when

3519
03:20:11,680 --> 03:20:16,280
Speaker 7: that common oppressors has gone home, and then we start

3520
03:20:16,280 --> 03:20:19,200
Speaker 7: fighting each other, you see what I mean? So number one,

3521
03:20:19,240 --> 03:20:23,320
Speaker 7: it's like you know, that is very very important. These

3522
03:20:23,400 --> 03:20:29,480
Speaker 7: new entities do not define their political organizations along any

3523
03:20:29,720 --> 03:20:35,160
Speaker 7: idea of like you know, blood and soil. Yeah, and

3524
03:20:35,240 --> 03:20:36,560
Speaker 7: that's very very important.

3525
03:20:36,640 --> 03:20:39,200
Speaker 6: Otherwise we we.

3526
03:20:38,520 --> 03:20:44,840
Speaker 7: We replicate what we fought against. Right. And secondly, I

3527
03:20:44,920 --> 03:20:52,920
Speaker 7: think no military organizations should control administrations. But at the moment,

3528
03:20:53,640 --> 03:20:56,320
Speaker 7: you know, with the exception of the current National Union,

3529
03:20:57,240 --> 03:21:04,120
Speaker 7: most other ethnically organized armed resistance organizations in Burma, when

3530
03:21:04,120 --> 03:21:09,040
Speaker 7: they set up administrations, you know, administrators are guys who

3531
03:21:09,080 --> 03:21:13,520
Speaker 7: are you know, like carrying AK forty seven or some

3532
03:21:13,640 --> 03:21:17,400
Speaker 7: other weapons. You see what I mean? Because like what

3533
03:21:17,440 --> 03:21:19,480
Speaker 7: they need to do is as soon as like that

3534
03:21:19,560 --> 03:21:25,280
Speaker 7: they have secure any like ancestral region, what they need

3535
03:21:25,320 --> 03:21:29,080
Speaker 7: to do is they need to separate law and order

3536
03:21:29,280 --> 03:21:35,600
Speaker 7: maintenance from the defense. Yeah, And the reason we have

3537
03:21:35,760 --> 03:21:41,240
Speaker 7: gotten into this bloody mess is because the military did

3538
03:21:41,280 --> 03:21:46,200
Speaker 7: not separate law and order administration as a civilian function

3539
03:21:46,720 --> 03:21:55,280
Speaker 7: function from the national defense. So the current progressively militarily

3540
03:21:55,480 --> 03:22:03,600
Speaker 7: successful ethnic resistance organizations have to demilitarized self consciously and

3541
03:22:03,680 --> 03:22:08,560
Speaker 7: as a matter of policy their new administrations. So these

3542
03:22:08,600 --> 03:22:13,400
Speaker 7: two things, you know, move away from blood and soil

3543
03:22:13,600 --> 03:22:20,160
Speaker 7: idea of identity and demilitarized and civilianize the administration.

3544
03:22:20,840 --> 03:22:24,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, do you have hope? Like I find when I

3545
03:22:24,400 --> 03:22:28,200
Speaker 5: talk to especially younger people in the PDF, who are

3546
03:22:28,200 --> 03:22:32,160
Speaker 5: most people are like maybe it's easier for them to

3547
03:22:32,240 --> 03:22:37,120
Speaker 5: see the obvious the colonial relationship and the way that

3548
03:22:37,560 --> 03:22:40,560
Speaker 5: these constructs have harmed them and prevented them from finding

3549
03:22:40,560 --> 03:22:44,080
Speaker 5: solidarity with people of other ethnic groups. That's something that

3550
03:22:44,200 --> 03:22:47,400
Speaker 5: like sometimes they will articulate to me, right that, like,

3551
03:22:48,520 --> 03:22:51,080
Speaker 5: you know, we were told these people were bad and

3552
03:22:51,120 --> 03:22:53,240
Speaker 5: evil and savage, and they're not, and there are allies

3553
03:22:53,280 --> 03:22:56,400
Speaker 5: in this fight against dictatorship. Do you think that that's

3554
03:22:56,480 --> 03:23:00,440
Speaker 5: replicated in the in the leadership of eros like that

3555
03:23:00,440 --> 03:23:03,560
Speaker 5: that idea that this blood and soil nationalism has been

3556
03:23:05,240 --> 03:23:08,400
Speaker 5: the blood soil identity, I should say, is something that's

3557
03:23:08,440 --> 03:23:11,120
Speaker 5: like a big problematic and devisive and will always be

3558
03:23:11,280 --> 03:23:14,840
Speaker 5: so like, do you not see that replicated so much?

3559
03:23:15,760 --> 03:23:23,600
Speaker 7: Well, there is still you know, the old conservative orientations

3560
03:23:23,640 --> 03:23:30,279
Speaker 7: in these ros with respect to two things, the acceptance

3561
03:23:30,440 --> 03:23:38,640
Speaker 7: of you know, younger generations into policy making circles, right yeah.

3562
03:23:38,680 --> 03:23:42,600
Speaker 7: And then the other one is the half of the

3563
03:23:42,640 --> 03:23:47,960
Speaker 7: population of these ethnic communities have remained marginalized, and that

3564
03:23:48,120 --> 03:23:51,240
Speaker 7: is war men, if you you know, I mean, on

3565
03:23:51,360 --> 03:23:54,640
Speaker 7: one hand, it does make sense that you know, men

3566
03:23:54,720 --> 03:23:57,840
Speaker 7: with guns and men with like you know, the fifty

3567
03:23:57,920 --> 03:24:02,280
Speaker 7: years of revolutionary experience are going to play leading role.

3568
03:24:03,080 --> 03:24:07,920
Speaker 7: But these guys have to make a conscious effort in

3569
03:24:08,240 --> 03:24:11,680
Speaker 7: changing their own value system, which is like, you know,

3570
03:24:12,400 --> 03:24:20,240
Speaker 7: bring in new generations with more progressive ideas into policy

3571
03:24:20,360 --> 03:24:25,800
Speaker 7: making circle, leadership circle, and bring in warming. And you know,

3572
03:24:26,800 --> 03:24:29,560
Speaker 7: I wish I understand I know more about the Kurdish

3573
03:24:29,760 --> 03:24:35,560
Speaker 7: revolutionary organizations. My own very limited understanding is that you know,

3574
03:24:35,760 --> 03:24:40,840
Speaker 7: gender equality, I mean, for the for the Islamophobic crowd,

3575
03:24:40,959 --> 03:24:45,680
Speaker 7: it might be quite shocking, but the Kurdish revolutionary organizations

3576
03:24:45,680 --> 03:24:52,240
Speaker 7: are you know, much more gender equal, yeah than like

3577
03:24:52,320 --> 03:24:54,280
Speaker 7: you know, white democratic societies.

3578
03:24:55,040 --> 03:24:58,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right. And I think their analysis, if I

3579
03:24:58,200 --> 03:25:03,440
Speaker 5: can sort of summarize like opposed thought very is that

3580
03:25:04,080 --> 03:25:08,280
Speaker 5: colonialism begins in the patriarchal family, and that the first

3581
03:25:08,320 --> 03:25:11,080
Speaker 5: colonized subject is the woman. And therefore, if we can't

3582
03:25:11,080 --> 03:25:14,280
Speaker 5: decolonize off amelia and community relations, then we have little

3583
03:25:14,320 --> 03:25:17,600
Speaker 5: hope of decononizing ourselves as a group or as a society.

3584
03:25:17,720 --> 03:25:19,720
Speaker 5: So that their analysis rest in the same place as

3585
03:25:19,760 --> 03:25:24,160
Speaker 5: yours does. And I think that there's I think increased

3586
03:25:24,840 --> 03:25:28,640
Speaker 5: solidarity and communication between the Kurdish freedom movement and the

3587
03:25:28,680 --> 03:25:31,480
Speaker 5: resistance movements in mem which I hope can only do

3588
03:25:31,600 --> 03:25:34,800
Speaker 5: good for that. Like, especially with regard to gender relations,

3589
03:25:34,840 --> 03:25:38,360
Speaker 5: it was interesting to see the Kereni K and d

3590
03:25:38,480 --> 03:25:41,600
Speaker 5: F Battalian five issued a statement which said that like

3591
03:25:42,200 --> 03:25:43,879
Speaker 5: they had a long way to go in terms of

3592
03:25:43,920 --> 03:25:46,120
Speaker 5: gender relations, and they looked to the Kurdish model of

3593
03:25:46,240 --> 03:25:48,840
Speaker 5: example of where they can get to, which at least

3594
03:25:48,879 --> 03:25:52,160
Speaker 5: it gives me hope that these things can get better.

3595
03:25:53,240 --> 03:25:56,160
Speaker 7: Yeah. I mean K and DF is a remarkable you

3596
03:25:56,200 --> 03:26:02,560
Speaker 7: know organization, crenatural defense organization, right, Kranny, Kranny. I mean

3597
03:26:02,600 --> 03:26:06,080
Speaker 7: they are led by very progressive sort of like you know,

3598
03:26:06,879 --> 03:26:13,200
Speaker 7: semi anarchist type young people. Yeah, you know, the the

3599
03:26:13,400 --> 03:26:22,280
Speaker 7: ethnicity and gender discrimination are self consciously avoided and discouraged. Yeah.

3600
03:26:22,360 --> 03:26:27,080
Speaker 7: So basically, other we we cannot we cannot have a

3601
03:26:27,160 --> 03:26:34,160
Speaker 7: successful revolutionary movement, you know, just by trying to you know,

3602
03:26:34,640 --> 03:26:37,160
Speaker 7: take power from the center. You know, there has to

3603
03:26:37,240 --> 03:26:41,240
Speaker 7: be you know, it's an rebellion. It's different from a

3604
03:26:41,360 --> 03:26:49,920
Speaker 7: revolutionary movement. Revolutionary movement involves a shifting fundamentally the non

3605
03:26:50,040 --> 03:26:54,520
Speaker 7: progressive values and outlooks. Right. That that is something that

3606
03:26:54,600 --> 03:26:58,240
Speaker 7: needs to happen, and that that, in my view U

3607
03:26:59,160 --> 03:27:06,360
Speaker 7: is a deeply you know, intellectual psychological process. But I

3608
03:27:06,360 --> 03:27:10,600
Speaker 7: think I think that the the the that is happening,

3609
03:27:10,720 --> 03:27:15,320
Speaker 7: you know, and so the so that that that ideological

3610
03:27:16,000 --> 03:27:22,720
Speaker 7: progressive shift is it's going to hit the uh, the

3611
03:27:22,760 --> 03:27:27,640
Speaker 7: ceiling at some point because you've got old men in

3612
03:27:27,800 --> 03:27:33,680
Speaker 7: a decision making positions who are not who haven't bought

3613
03:27:33,720 --> 03:27:40,040
Speaker 7: in entirely uh, the need to shift their value system.

3614
03:27:40,120 --> 03:27:44,880
Speaker 7: And then partially it's not simply ideological, it's also self interest.

3615
03:27:45,480 --> 03:27:47,920
Speaker 7: When you're when you're the when you're the boss for

3616
03:27:48,000 --> 03:27:52,360
Speaker 7: twenty five years, you know, you're a little like autocredit tyrant,

3617
03:27:52,640 --> 03:27:56,440
Speaker 7: you know what I mean, right, organization, So shifting the

3618
03:27:57,000 --> 03:28:02,480
Speaker 7: you know, giving women and younger generation spaces me you know,

3619
03:28:02,879 --> 03:28:07,320
Speaker 7: you shutting up fifty percent of the time and letting

3620
03:28:07,400 --> 03:28:11,000
Speaker 7: the other you know, people speak fifty percent, you know,

3621
03:28:11,120 --> 03:28:14,160
Speaker 7: like they're no more like monologue for one hour, you

3622
03:28:14,200 --> 03:28:18,119
Speaker 7: see what I mean. Yeah, so even like you know,

3623
03:28:18,280 --> 03:28:22,080
Speaker 7: the airtime, you have less airtime, that's like you're less.

3624
03:28:22,440 --> 03:28:26,119
Speaker 7: That's your self interest your airtime, you know, let alone

3625
03:28:26,240 --> 03:28:31,000
Speaker 7: economic and other interests. This is just like talking in

3626
03:28:31,160 --> 03:28:33,520
Speaker 7: a meeting, you see what I mean. I've been through

3627
03:28:33,600 --> 03:28:35,480
Speaker 7: like some of some of the meetings and stuff, and

3628
03:28:35,520 --> 03:28:38,360
Speaker 7: so you know, like guys think that only they have

3629
03:28:38,800 --> 03:28:43,000
Speaker 7: important things to say, you know, especially military matters or

3630
03:28:43,080 --> 03:28:47,280
Speaker 7: big items, okay, like women talk about welfare of children

3631
03:28:47,440 --> 03:28:49,560
Speaker 7: and you know, widows kind of shit.

3632
03:28:50,400 --> 03:28:53,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, this is very sort of still like separate

3633
03:28:53,959 --> 03:28:56,520
Speaker 5: spheres gender model that I know. Yeah, I have hope

3634
03:28:56,520 --> 03:28:59,680
Speaker 5: for the young generation. But I remember one of the

3635
03:28:59,680 --> 03:29:04,880
Speaker 5: guys as I met, he told me that, like he said,

3636
03:29:05,000 --> 03:29:09,000
Speaker 5: he said, like three years ago, I had some gender problems,

3637
03:29:09,040 --> 03:29:11,120
Speaker 5: and I didn't understand what he meant, and he was like,

3638
03:29:11,240 --> 03:29:13,400
Speaker 5: I thought that women couldn't do things that men could do,

3639
03:29:13,640 --> 03:29:15,760
Speaker 5: and now I realized I was wrong. And they were

3640
03:29:15,800 --> 03:29:20,320
Speaker 5: telling me that the police wouldn't there there was a

3641
03:29:20,360 --> 03:29:25,600
Speaker 5: taboo to walk underneath a woman's lunch. Yes, so yeah,

3642
03:29:25,840 --> 03:29:28,120
Speaker 5: so they hung them around their protest camps when they

3643
03:29:28,120 --> 03:29:30,760
Speaker 5: were in Yangon fighting the police, and that the police

3644
03:29:30,760 --> 03:29:32,640
Speaker 5: wouldn't come in, so that you were like, oh, this

3645
03:29:32,720 --> 03:29:35,920
Speaker 5: is when I realized that sexism hurts everyone. So I

3646
03:29:35,920 --> 03:29:39,000
Speaker 5: think it's yeah, I have hope for that generation. I

3647
03:29:39,000 --> 03:29:41,879
Speaker 5: think it's It's been one of the things that has

3648
03:29:41,879 --> 03:29:44,959
Speaker 5: given me so much hope for the world in general

3649
03:29:45,400 --> 03:29:47,840
Speaker 5: as I've been covering the revolution in the Amma, is

3650
03:29:47,879 --> 03:29:53,400
Speaker 5: to see people reconstruct and change their identities in a

3651
03:29:53,480 --> 03:29:57,440
Speaker 5: progressive and inclusive way, and people, you know, people in

3652
03:29:57,480 --> 03:29:59,920
Speaker 5: this countries and the UK as well are so stuff

3653
03:30:00,320 --> 03:30:04,080
Speaker 5: in their sort of regressive identities. And to see young

3654
03:30:04,120 --> 03:30:08,520
Speaker 5: people there acknowledged that sexism, homophobia, these these racist and

3655
03:30:08,520 --> 03:30:13,760
Speaker 5: inter ethnic like hierarchies are damaging everyone. It's given me

3656
03:30:13,760 --> 03:30:15,720
Speaker 5: a great deal of hope for the future.

3657
03:30:17,400 --> 03:30:17,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

3658
03:30:17,640 --> 03:30:21,039
Speaker 7: I share your optimism. And part of it is, you know,

3659
03:30:22,040 --> 03:30:26,800
Speaker 7: the progressives or people or younger people or like older

3660
03:30:26,840 --> 03:30:32,080
Speaker 7: people with progressive outlooks. I mean, everything is constructed, you know,

3661
03:30:32,160 --> 03:30:35,320
Speaker 7: like if you change the material situation in terms of

3662
03:30:35,959 --> 03:30:39,959
Speaker 7: you know, who's making decisions or you know, under what

3663
03:30:40,120 --> 03:30:44,279
Speaker 7: conditions decisions are made, I think that people are able

3664
03:30:44,360 --> 03:30:49,640
Speaker 7: to shift their thinking, you see what I mean. I mean,

3665
03:30:50,959 --> 03:30:55,439
Speaker 7: And so I think like that, but definitely that political

3666
03:30:55,560 --> 03:30:58,480
Speaker 7: leadership is very important, you know. I mean I don't

3667
03:30:58,520 --> 03:31:01,520
Speaker 7: I don't believe in this like a goddess idea of

3668
03:31:01,680 --> 03:31:04,680
Speaker 7: like a group of men, uh you know, you know,

3669
03:31:04,840 --> 03:31:09,160
Speaker 7: guiding guiding the herd. Right, But at the same time,

3670
03:31:09,200 --> 03:31:14,959
Speaker 7: I think like these older men should meet the younger

3671
03:31:15,000 --> 03:31:19,120
Speaker 7: generations halfway. Yeah, And I'm not saying like okay, all right,

3672
03:31:19,720 --> 03:31:22,160
Speaker 7: you know, like a you know, like don't trust anyone

3673
03:31:22,280 --> 03:31:25,120
Speaker 7: above forty because I'm sixty, so I still want to

3674
03:31:25,120 --> 03:31:30,240
Speaker 7: be trusted. And but yeah, I mean I'm sixty and

3675
03:31:30,480 --> 03:31:34,760
Speaker 7: I can take ship from eighteen year old junior friend

3676
03:31:34,840 --> 03:31:38,160
Speaker 7: or colleague could tell me you're full of shit. And

3677
03:31:38,560 --> 03:31:41,960
Speaker 7: here's the reason I listen, Right, So I assume, like

3678
03:31:42,240 --> 03:31:45,959
Speaker 7: other other people my age, my generation, will be able

3679
03:31:46,040 --> 03:31:50,680
Speaker 7: to uh do the adjustment right and especially for the

3680
03:31:50,720 --> 03:31:54,800
Speaker 7: better and the But but I think that said there,

3681
03:31:55,600 --> 03:32:01,519
Speaker 7: they are really articulate young people and women, yes, who

3682
03:32:01,560 --> 03:32:04,600
Speaker 7: whose voices need to come to the full like you know,

3683
03:32:04,720 --> 03:32:08,280
Speaker 7: like people the people I mean, like we don't live

3684
03:32:08,320 --> 03:32:11,720
Speaker 7: in isolation anymore. Like in the nineteen sixties and seventies

3685
03:32:11,760 --> 03:32:15,720
Speaker 7: and agies, Burma was very isolated and so you know,

3686
03:32:16,240 --> 03:32:21,480
Speaker 7: and so the ideological currents did not reach within the

3687
03:32:21,520 --> 03:32:27,280
Speaker 7: Burmese society. So that the type of religions or religions

3688
03:32:27,480 --> 03:32:32,560
Speaker 7: I mean Christianity, the type of Christian practices outlook whatnot

3689
03:32:33,120 --> 03:32:36,600
Speaker 7: remain like extremely conservative compared with like you know, even

3690
03:32:36,760 --> 03:32:43,040
Speaker 7: like a conservative like Christian country like USA, yea. And

3691
03:32:44,520 --> 03:32:46,680
Speaker 7: but now, like you know, with we live in the

3692
03:32:46,800 --> 03:32:49,840
Speaker 7: social media internet age, and so you know, young people

3693
03:32:50,840 --> 03:32:54,760
Speaker 7: you know use the term like intersectionality, you know what

3694
03:32:54,800 --> 03:32:57,800
Speaker 7: I mean. They start to see like race, class, gender

3695
03:32:57,840 --> 03:33:02,840
Speaker 7: and other issues, you know, like inter intersecting and then

3696
03:33:02,920 --> 03:33:08,680
Speaker 7: producing or reproducing or ending like different forms of you know,

3697
03:33:08,800 --> 03:33:13,680
Speaker 7: repression and you know, exploitations and whatnot. We still have

3698
03:33:13,800 --> 03:33:16,959
Speaker 7: a very very long way to go. We can't shift.

3699
03:33:17,959 --> 03:33:20,320
Speaker 7: But that's not not to say that, you know, we

3700
03:33:20,360 --> 03:33:25,039
Speaker 7: should feel like discouraged, you know, but we we We

3701
03:33:25,080 --> 03:33:27,600
Speaker 7: won't see instant changes.

3702
03:33:29,320 --> 03:33:32,320
Speaker 5: No, yeah, but I think over time, Yeah, I have

3703
03:33:32,400 --> 03:33:34,840
Speaker 5: an deal of a great deal of optimism for the

3704
03:33:34,879 --> 03:33:38,960
Speaker 5: future of Memma, doctor Sanny. It's it's been really great talking.

3705
03:33:39,400 --> 03:33:42,640
Speaker 5: Where can people, especially people who are interested in your

3706
03:33:42,680 --> 03:33:45,280
Speaker 5: work and in the future of Memma, How how can

3707
03:33:45,320 --> 03:33:49,039
Speaker 5: they follow along with your work and with these struggles

3708
03:33:49,040 --> 03:33:53,560
Speaker 5: to create a more equal and just in democratic in

3709
03:33:54,080 --> 03:33:56,039
Speaker 5: the non state sense Burma.

3710
03:33:56,520 --> 03:33:59,400
Speaker 7: I mean one. I mean, I use social media, especially

3711
03:33:59,440 --> 03:34:03,959
Speaker 7: like in Facebook a lot, and I begin like consciously

3712
03:34:04,040 --> 03:34:09,199
Speaker 7: writing in Burmese language because I don't need to inform

3713
03:34:09,280 --> 03:34:12,080
Speaker 7: the world, because the world know the ship that's going

3714
03:34:12,120 --> 03:34:18,480
Speaker 7: on in Burma, and and so I think the my

3715
03:34:18,600 --> 03:34:22,800
Speaker 7: Facebook's okay. But if if people read like English or

3716
03:34:22,879 --> 03:34:26,440
Speaker 7: even like you know, other languages you know, our own

3717
03:34:26,600 --> 03:34:31,959
Speaker 7: mother tongue. Uh, the the Forces of Renewal Southeast Asia

3718
03:34:32,040 --> 03:34:36,280
Speaker 7: four c dot com CEO. It's a good platform. We

3719
03:34:37,080 --> 03:34:41,879
Speaker 7: encourage and actually we seek out uh you know, very

3720
03:34:41,959 --> 03:34:47,800
Speaker 7: radical ideas in multiple languages Burmese or or Chin or

3721
03:34:47,920 --> 03:34:51,600
Speaker 7: Karani or whatever language they want to use. We don't

3722
03:34:51,640 --> 03:34:56,120
Speaker 7: censor anyone. They can say anything as long as they're

3723
03:34:56,160 --> 03:34:59,959
Speaker 7: not advocating fascist them are violence or like you know,

3724
03:35:00,800 --> 03:35:04,120
Speaker 7: things like that. And so yeah, I encourage to take

3725
03:35:04,120 --> 03:35:10,720
Speaker 7: a glandset our South East Asia Network of anarchistic activists

3726
03:35:10,720 --> 03:35:11,440
Speaker 7: and scholars.

3727
03:35:11,879 --> 03:35:14,360
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, it's a great website. I'll inclear a link

3728
03:35:14,400 --> 03:35:16,920
Speaker 5: to it in the description. Thank you so much for

3729
03:35:16,959 --> 03:35:19,360
Speaker 5: your time this evening. We really appreciate it.

3730
03:35:22,520 --> 03:35:25,720
Speaker 1: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3731
03:35:25,760 --> 03:35:27,680
Speaker 1: from now until the heat death of the Universe.

3732
03:35:28,280 --> 03:35:30,640
Speaker 6: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

3733
03:35:30,840 --> 03:35:33,520
Speaker 8: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3734
03:35:33,560 --> 03:35:35,800
Speaker 8: cool Zonemedia dot com. But check us out on the

3735
03:35:35,840 --> 03:35:39,360
Speaker 8: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

3736
03:35:39,640 --> 03:35:41,760
Speaker 8: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated

3737
03:35:41,840 --> 03:35:45,879
Speaker 8: monthly at cool zonemedia, dot com, slash sources, thanks for listening.