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Speaker 1: J. J.

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Speaker 2: Martin and I, though years apart, have had parallel lives

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Speaker 2: where women New Yorkers who left there to live abroad

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Speaker 2: for a short time for love and stayed forever for love.

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Speaker 2: Mine was for Richard Rogers. Hers was for Andrea Chicoli

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Speaker 2: and the magic of everything Italian. A friend once told

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Speaker 2: me that living in a foreign city makes you creative,

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Speaker 2: even if you do nothing all day. But creativity defines J. J. Martin,

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Speaker 2: and she definitely does not do nothing all day, though

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Speaker 2: she claims since moving to Milan, she is surrendered into

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Speaker 2: the beautiful chaos that is Italy and through a rigor

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Speaker 2: and discipline, created a brilliant business La Double Jay, the

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Speaker 2: fashion design and lifestyle brand. We have much in common,

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Speaker 2: strong values in our workspace, respect for the people we

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Speaker 2: deal with every day, and a passion for color. A

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Speaker 2: passion for beauty. May be a few different things too.

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Speaker 2: JJ is a maximalist, while I'm probably more of a mineralist.

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Speaker 2: She loves vintage clothing. I've never worn anything anyone else

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Speaker 2: is worn. But today we'll share our parallel lives, our

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Speaker 2: love for Italy, our love for food, our love for fashion, beauty.

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Speaker 2: And I am confident that by the end of our

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Speaker 2: time together, we will add our love for a new

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Speaker 2: friendship and a love for each other.

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Speaker 3: How beautiful. I love that introduction. I'm honored.

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Speaker 2: It's so nice because we both know of each other

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Speaker 2: through friends, which is always the great connection. I always

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Speaker 2: think life is about connections. Maybe we could start by

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Speaker 2: your reading a recipe that you chose and it comes

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Speaker 2: from I think our River Cafe easy book. But it

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Speaker 2: is a really great that you chose this recipe now

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Speaker 2: because it is very seasonal with a ridicio. It's creamy

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Speaker 2: and warm and what we kind of need right now.

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Speaker 2: So would you like to read the rest of love?

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Speaker 3: To read? Proshutto and ridicio taliate l three hundred and

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Speaker 3: fifty grams of taliatel, six slices of perscutto one head

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Speaker 3: of ridicio, one garlic clove, peeled and finally chopped, two

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Speaker 3: tea zions of rosemary leaves finely chopped, fifty grams of

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Speaker 3: parmesan rigiano grated, one hundred and ten grams of unsalted butter.

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Speaker 3: So what you do is you cut the perscutto and

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Speaker 3: ridicio into ribbons that are the same with as the telatele.

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Speaker 3: You melt half the butter in a thick bottomed pan.

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Speaker 3: You add the garlic and rosemary and you cook for

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Speaker 3: a minute. Then add half the chopped redicio and proscutto

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Speaker 3: and you cook it just to wilt. Then you cook

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Speaker 3: the taliately and boiled salted water until al dente. Drain

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Speaker 3: and add the rest of the butter and half the parmesan.

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Speaker 3: Combine with the cooked ridicio, then stir in the remaining

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Speaker 3: ridicuo and procutto, toss thoroughly and serve with parmigiano.

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Speaker 2: Hmm, thank you. So you've said that cooking in Italy

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Speaker 2: is an art, not a science, and you can pat

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Speaker 2: to get laughed out of town? Will to use a cookbook?

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Speaker 2: Can you talk to me about that?

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Speaker 3: So I moved to Italy in two thousand and one.

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Speaker 3: I had no friends, no family, no job, no smartphone,

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Speaker 3: no wireless. I was lost and I had no cooking skills.

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Speaker 3: And back at that time, there was really no takeout

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Speaker 3: food whatsoever. If you wanted to get anything taken out,

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Speaker 3: you would get a pizza. Otherwise everyone was either in

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Speaker 3: a restaurant or at their home cooking. And I went

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Speaker 3: into a panic. I went into my overachieving American mode

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Speaker 3: of needing to like conquer this like I did everything

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Speaker 3: else in my life. So I ordered the Dean and

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Speaker 3: DeLuca Cookbook online, which was sort of my only reference

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Speaker 3: point of like, how you know how to make some

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Speaker 3: Italian food? And I was reading this cookbook like a

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Speaker 3: novel every night. I was taking notes, and I was

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Speaker 3: practicing recipes from this book, not knowing that it was

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Speaker 3: the least Italian kind of book I could have ever

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Speaker 3: been working from, because each recipe had forty five ingredients

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Speaker 3: and would take two and a half hours, and I

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Speaker 3: didn't It wasn't until I really started watching the Italians

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Speaker 3: and being part of their environment that I realized that,

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Speaker 3: first of all, no one cooks from a recipe. Everyone

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Speaker 3: has learned from their mother or grandmother, and even if

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Speaker 3: they do kind of have like a you know, a

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Speaker 3: basis of a recipe, the whole idea is to really

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Speaker 3: let your intuition take over and let the magic and

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Speaker 3: real creativity come over. And it was so funny because

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Speaker 3: you know, in these ear it took a long time

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Speaker 3: for me to learn this. I've been in Italy twenty

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Speaker 3: two years now, but I would say like my first

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Speaker 3: ten years I was still in this place of like

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Speaker 3: really trying to understand food. I did take one cooking

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Speaker 3: class at a Tellian restaurant down on then a video

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Speaker 3: called Tano pasa milolo, and I was at this you know,

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Speaker 3: table with like fourteen housewives, not understanding that this was

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Speaker 3: not a beginner's cooking thing, like the these women knew

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Speaker 3: how to cook and and and so he would always

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Speaker 3: say the beginning of the recipe was like found a krema,

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Speaker 3: find a crema, And I was like, what's a crema?

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Speaker 3: How do you fire it on akrema?

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Speaker 2: Like I didn't want to do anything.

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Speaker 3: And he would give us these sheets where the recipe

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Speaker 3: the ingredients were written down and there was no quantity,

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Speaker 3: no method, method, No, there was no well maybe a

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Speaker 3: little bit of method, but very approximate and literally no quantities.

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Speaker 3: So the funny thing about this recipe of reading this

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Speaker 3: pursuit from Ridikio, it is a very Italian recipe except

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Speaker 3: for the fact that you've included quantities.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but you know, I think that it's really

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Speaker 2: endearing that you got Dinan DeLuca cookbook because I think

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Speaker 2: that if you don't know how to cook and really

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Speaker 2: want to follow a recipe. Then it gives you the

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Speaker 2: confidence too to go away. It's like fashion, it's like drawing,

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Speaker 2: it's like poetry. You can't write free poetry unless you

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Speaker 2: know the rigor of a Shakespeare's sauna. Then you can depart.

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Speaker 2: So maybe, unless you have a mother or father maybe

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Speaker 2: who taught you to cook every day in your house,

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Speaker 2: as you say you're Italian friends, following a recipe and

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Speaker 2: then leaving it maybe is okay.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it gives you the muscles and the

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Speaker 3: training wheels, and just the comfort around being in a kitchen,

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Speaker 3: around preparing ingredients, around seeing how you know, oil at

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Speaker 3: different temperatures changes, you know, even cooking vegetables. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's the other thing I find really interesting. I was

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Speaker 3: reminded as I was reading your recipe here. Italian recipes

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Speaker 3: are known for their simplicity, but at the same time,

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Speaker 3: there's two things that I've learned that are essential. Number

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Speaker 3: one is the quality of the ingredients. Because there's so few,

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Speaker 3: you can't masquerade anything. So if you don't have incredible quality,

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Speaker 3: ridicu And by the way, I highly recommend Treviso. It's

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Speaker 3: the best less bitter, but you know, you need to

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Speaker 3: have the best better, the best parmigano, the best rosemary.

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Speaker 3: Otherwise nothing's happening. And the other thing is technique. So

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Speaker 3: the fact that you are, you know, adding half, you're

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Speaker 3: adding the vegetables at different times, you're cooking them a

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Speaker 3: different it's not as sort of there's a there's an

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Speaker 3: art really to the way they prepare it that is

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Speaker 3: really important.

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Speaker 2: I totally agree with you about Italian food that I

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Speaker 2: lived in Paris for five years, six years when my

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Speaker 2: husband is doing a project there and then, and I

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Speaker 2: love French food. I love a sauce. I love finding that,

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Speaker 2: you know, a piece of turbot under a bar of black.

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Speaker 2: But then you go to Italy and the first meal

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Speaker 2: I had was a piece of toast bisquetta with a

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Speaker 2: little bit of garlic and then the olive oil. And

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Speaker 2: that was three ingredients. But had any one of them

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Speaker 2: been any less interesting or of the quality, it wouldn't

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Speaker 2: have worked totally.

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Speaker 3: And it's so funny you bring up France because one

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Speaker 3: thing that I was so surprised about when I moved

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Speaker 3: to Italy was how proud Italians are of their cuisine.

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Speaker 3: And they're quite close minded to other cuisines, so you

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Speaker 3: never want to travel with an Italian outside of the

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Speaker 3: Italian borders because they're complaining about the food the entire time.

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Speaker 3: And the other thing, which I find so funny is

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Speaker 3: no matter how good it is, French food sucks. They

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Speaker 3: hate French food and they are and they and one

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Speaker 3: of the reasons why they tell me, because I really

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Speaker 3: got curious about this. They don't like a sauce unless

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Speaker 3: it's on a pasta, and then it can't be too sauce.

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Speaker 3: It has to be the right amount of sauce. Like

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Speaker 3: so most Americans tend to oversauce and overcook their pasta,

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Speaker 3: you know. So these are just all these like small subtleties.

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Speaker 3: But like for example, an Italian would never put a

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Speaker 3: sauce on a meat. That's a big no no. So

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Speaker 3: it's just funny. Or even a fish. They don't use

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Speaker 3: sauces generally.

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Speaker 2: When you have misto, you have the sauce of Verde.

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Speaker 2: But they're very they're very specific yea in general. But

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Speaker 2: if you have a great piece of fish, they have

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Speaker 2: SESSI here it is one of the chefs in the

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Speaker 2: River Cafe, and you know, if it's as you said,

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Speaker 2: it's a great piece of grilled sea beast. Why would

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Speaker 2: you do anything more?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's the I mean, this is what's so

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Speaker 3: amazing about Italy is they distill everything down to raw

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Speaker 3: its purest state, So you know, you just want the

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Speaker 3: crispness of the lemon and the juicy fragrance of the

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Speaker 3: olive oil. I mean, the other thing that I got

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Speaker 3: there was an education in olive oil. Who knew, you know,

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Speaker 3: the guy who I was referring to before about where

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Speaker 3: I was taking the cooking classes. His restaurant was called

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Speaker 3: Tano Paseloyo and you walked in and he had probably

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Speaker 3: four hundred olive oils lining every wall of the restaurant

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Speaker 3: and he was an expert at pairing. People would go

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Speaker 3: to his restaurant because there would be a different olive

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Speaker 3: oil paired with every plate daily and it was this

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Speaker 3: wonderful symphony that is such a subtletya that you develop.

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Speaker 3: But once you get rid of I mean, I think

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Speaker 3: it's a really good metaphor for life, Like once you

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Speaker 3: get rid of all the noise, then suddenly your senses

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Speaker 3: are so much more tuned, and then you're really seeing

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Speaker 3: the beauty of something so simple as an oil.

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Speaker 2: Just to go back from your incredible palette and your

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Speaker 2: interest in food and Italy and ingredients and the way

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Speaker 2: to cook. Growing up. We grew up in Los Angeles, Yes,

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Speaker 2: I grew up in Tell me about early life and

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Speaker 2: the Martin household.

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Speaker 3: Okay, well I do remember the spaghetti sauce my mom

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Speaker 3: put ketchup in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay. We had a.

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Speaker 3: Very food centric household because we were all athletes and

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Speaker 3: there was copious amounts of food being made and consumed.

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Speaker 3: So my mom actually did make a lot of stuff.

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Speaker 3: My dad was a hunter and a fisherman, so our

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Speaker 3: freezers were stocked with dove, quail, dove, dear, yeah, bore.

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Speaker 3: I mean. The thing is he would go out hunting

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Speaker 3: and bring it all back and we would eat this

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Speaker 3: stuff for a long time. It was never really my fake.

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Speaker 2: Did you ever go hunting with him?

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Speaker 3: I did? I did, and then I just didn't want

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Speaker 3: to kill animals. Just wasn't my thing, so I would

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Speaker 3: hang out. I have two older brothers. They were really

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Speaker 3: into this. So I went on a lot of camping, fishing,

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Speaker 3: hunting trips as a as a young girl and wasn't

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Speaker 3: into it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and being athletes, do they want protein or carbs

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Speaker 2: or this was.

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Speaker 3: This was before knowing that like they needed to have

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Speaker 3: the right balance between protein and carbs. They were just starving.

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Speaker 3: I remember so well that, you know, we would all

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Speaker 3: come back from whatever I was in gymnastics, they were

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Speaker 3: in volleyball. We would all come back at like ten pm,

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Speaker 3: and we've already had like four meals by that point.

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Speaker 3: Because my mom used to pack our dinners. We would

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Speaker 3: have Stouffers frozen food that would be put in a

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Speaker 3: thermos and that we would eat before practice and you know,

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Speaker 3: like at four o'clock or five o'clock, and then we'd

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Speaker 3: have another meal when we came home. We were eating

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Speaker 3: like four times a day.

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Speaker 2: As a gymnast as well as a.

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Speaker 3: Gymnast, I was eating just fun of food.

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Speaker 2: Did you have to keep you away at a certain

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Speaker 2: level or that.

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Speaker 3: Well, the thing was I was twice as large as

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Speaker 3: every other gymnast because I was so tall, and I

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Speaker 3: mean I was literally eight inches taller than most people,

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Speaker 3: and you know, you're working. I was working out three

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Speaker 3: hours every day, six days a week, and that that's

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Speaker 3: wasn't seasonal, it was all year round. So I did

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Speaker 3: that for about nine years. So it's just an incredible

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Speaker 3: amount of calories that you're burning.

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Speaker 2: How old were you when you started?

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Speaker 3: I started the like the hardcore club gymnastics at nine

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Speaker 3: years old, and then I finished when I was eighteen. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so it was really intense. And I and I, you know,

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Speaker 3: I went to an all girls' high school, also very regress,

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Speaker 3: so I had this upbringing that was very tight. And

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Speaker 3: that's also has been such a wonderful thing that I

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Speaker 3: that I explore in this in this book. The mom

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Speaker 3: I mean Lano about out the loosening, the softening, the relaxing,

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Speaker 3: because I really didn't learn that from a from an

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Speaker 3: early age. And you know, taking back to food, it

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Speaker 3: was not relaxing while we ate because everyone was scared

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Speaker 3: that it was all going to be gone, so we

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Speaker 3: were all like fighting and grabbing for the food. So

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Speaker 3: it wasn't this like long, luxurious, you know, relaxing moment.

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Speaker 3: It was like, yeah, you was scarfing it down.

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Speaker 2: Did your father cook?

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Speaker 3: Was there an My dad barbecued?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing. Men barbecue, and yeah that's how

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Speaker 2: I often.

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Speaker 3: And my mom would make really nice stuffings for the meats.

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Speaker 3: Like I didn't eat the meat so much I'm not

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Speaker 3: into game, and actually, now it's so funny. I know

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Speaker 3: I chose this don ride kio tellie I've I've since

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Speaker 3: become a vegetarian, so I really don't eat meat or fish.

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Speaker 3: But this recipe was my first and favorite from your cookbook,

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Speaker 3: and it was one that I did so many times

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Speaker 3: and it was so easy, and I was like, this

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Speaker 3: is Italian cooking. That's I wanted to share it.

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Speaker 2: You can actually have it without the pashuoter. You can

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Speaker 2: make it now. We do it a lot the ridicio,

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Speaker 2: but sometimes we do a sefrito with the ridico, so

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Speaker 2: we put a bit of you know, I can really

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Speaker 2: cook it down and then and then.

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Speaker 3: You know what I would add maybe if I was

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Speaker 3: doing vegetarian, I would add some toasted pine nuts and

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Speaker 3: maybe just a tiny bit of for modrole, like even

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Speaker 3: another for modrole, just to like it. I mean depends,

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Speaker 3: but I think it's a great rest.

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Speaker 2: Do you want to say something about do you never

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Speaker 2: made this recipe in the river carefoe?

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Speaker 1: I have?

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Speaker 2: I love.

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Speaker 1: Sounding very English. What I love is that the ridicule

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Speaker 1: is the same shape as the pasta. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 1: you have like this mouthful and you can't quite differentiate

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Speaker 1: which part is which, but it all sort of is

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Speaker 1: the same shape and it's so delicious when it all

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Speaker 1: comes together.

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Speaker 3: And that is exactly one of the things that I

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Speaker 3: was saying. It's like, you can have all the same ingredients,

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Speaker 3: but it's about how you prep it. It's how you

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Speaker 3: exactly these very simple subtleties that make all the difference.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and as long as the ingredients are the freshest

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Speaker 1: and the most beautiful, which we have hit the River Cafe,

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Speaker 1: it just transforms the dish completely, makes it something really special.

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Speaker 3: Is that the ment. I still can't believe Sassy is

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Speaker 3: a telling me because our.

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Speaker 2: English is so It was amazing when you left this

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Speaker 2: home of family meals and your mother cooking and your

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Speaker 2: dad barbecuing and hunting and fishing and you know, shooting,

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Speaker 2: not fashion nothing. But then you went to university.

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Speaker 3: I went to Berkeley.

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Speaker 2: You went to Berkeley, and that was a big change

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Speaker 2: in terms of food for you did it well.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, I didn't know who Alice Waters was at that time,

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Speaker 3: and I didn't you know, I wasn't you know, probably

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Speaker 3: in the position to go eat there. But the food

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Speaker 3: was quite sophisticated, even just around Berkeley. I remember, you know,

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Speaker 3: I lived in a sorority house, so we actually had

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Speaker 3: these buffets of wonderful food and there was an incredible

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Speaker 3: cook there. I've always been a baker, like that was

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Speaker 3: something that I knew from a young age. My mom

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Speaker 3: was baking a lot. She made a lot of really

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Speaker 3: great desserts. So the cook at our slaty house would

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Speaker 3: always be making these wonderful homemade American cookies that I

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Speaker 3: now cannot find in Italy if my life depended on.

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Speaker 2: It, Like what which one?

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Speaker 3: Just like just any chocolate, chewy, yes, ginger, molasses, oatmeal, raisin,

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Speaker 3: all of those like that, the chewiness and the sort

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Speaker 3: of softness brown sugar is an ingredient that just doesn't

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Speaker 3: seem to exist in Italy the way we use it

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Speaker 3: in American in the UK, and they don't use as

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Speaker 3: much butter. I noticed Italians in general, so I would

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Speaker 3: say the only kind of food group that's missing for

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Speaker 3: me in Italy are the desserts.

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Speaker 2: Really Yeah, well, Italians I always you know, we always

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Speaker 2: say Italians have their cakes for breakfast in there, ice

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Speaker 2: cream on the streets and then an espress for a dessert.

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Speaker 2: You know, you're so right. And I've been in homes

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Speaker 2: where the food is so good and then they'll bring

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Speaker 2: out one of those kind of custardy pies with the

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Speaker 2: custard and then the food on the top, and you think,

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Speaker 2: what relationship does this have to do with the most

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Speaker 2: amazing pasta sauce. We just they don't. They do not.

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Speaker 3: Actually, there's there's I have two small complaints with Italian cuisine.

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Speaker 3: Is one is the desserts and one is the bread.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well you're not even in Tuscany. Wait, you

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Speaker 2: get to Tuscany and there's no.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's like a cardboard. It's a piece of cardboard.

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Speaker 3: It's susy.

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Speaker 2: Jump in tell us.

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Speaker 1: What's nice though, is it's kind of like a vessel,

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Speaker 1: so it can carry whatever you put on it. So

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Speaker 1: if it has no taste, So when you taste the

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Speaker 1: new oils, yeah put them on that bridge. It's catches,

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Speaker 1: the sort of more salty or colta.

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Speaker 3: Is wonderful, but it's not bread. There's sometimes when I

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Speaker 3: just miss bread and butter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah butter.

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Speaker 3: I love butter. And it's not a cult. We don't have.

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Speaker 3: There's not a culture for that. And there are certain

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Speaker 3: things that I learned. You know, one of the messages

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Speaker 3: of this book that I wrote was surrendering to what

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Speaker 3: is in Italy instead of always looking at what was

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Speaker 3: not there. And at the beginning, I was like, where

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Speaker 3: are the avocados, where's the cilantro, where's my non fat milk?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's trying to find all these things.

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Speaker 2: Where's my butter, where's my good bread?

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Speaker 3: And what I realized, so much of the exercise of

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Speaker 3: living and embracing Italy is just allowing yourself to melt

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Speaker 3: into the wonder and the magic and the beauty that

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Speaker 3: is there, because once you do that, you will be

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Speaker 3: rocket shipped off the planet into ecstasy. It's amazing.

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Speaker 2: I should probably say that with most travel you know

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Speaker 2: that living in another country that you do is Mexico,

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Speaker 2: or if you were in China or Japan that you

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Speaker 2: you know, as you say surrender. I think it's really

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Speaker 2: interesting the way I use the word surrender so often,

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Speaker 2: and I really had to learn it, and it's and

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Speaker 2: you use it in a very energetic and positive way

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Speaker 2: rather than giving up. You know, it's not you know,

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Speaker 2: in military terms, you're surrendered by it. You giving them

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Speaker 2: your flag and we've surrendered. Whereas you're using surrender as embracing,

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Speaker 2: I would say, much more embracing the culture that you're

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Speaker 2: living in. Talk to me more about the book and

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Speaker 2: talk to me what you would try. Because it's so

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Speaker 2: it's so funny, you know.

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Speaker 3: I when I first started my company, lit Double Ja

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Speaker 3: in twenty fifteen, I was selling my collection of vintage clothing,

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Speaker 3: and I was showing it on all of the creative

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Speaker 3: women in Milan, the women that I you know, as

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Speaker 3: a journalist for fifteen years. They didn't want me writing

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Speaker 3: about those women. They wanted me interviewing George Romani and

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Speaker 3: dul Jingobana and the advertisers. But I had found that

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Speaker 3: there was this like incredible cluster of the most creative, cool,

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Speaker 3: shockingly adept housemakers in Milan. Like I couldn't believe that

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Speaker 3: they were these women that had these incredible creative careers

383
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Speaker 3: and that could still turn out dinner beautifully or entertaining flawlessly.

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Speaker 3: Their homes were decorated incredibly, everything, even their pantry clas

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Speaker 3: it's were amazing, and there was so much to learn

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Speaker 3: from them. And I launched the website. I had this

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Speaker 3: whole section on you know how to live like an

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Speaker 3: Italian and the school of shura. A shura is an

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Speaker 3: Italian or a Milanaise housewife, which these women were not housewives,

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Speaker 3: but they had all the like the tools, and they

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Speaker 3: had all the techniques. And at the time, well, they're

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Speaker 3: well staffed.

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Speaker 2: That's I was going to wait for that. They're well

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Speaker 2: staffed laws because I think to do that, to work

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Speaker 2: all day and then do all that they know how to.

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Speaker 2: It's a division of power.

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Speaker 3: But like you know what I've also learned as having

398
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Speaker 3: a company, so much of that is understanding, like what

399
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,000
Speaker 3: you can farm out to others, like what should be

400
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,879
Speaker 3: your own purview and what you can share with others.

401
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,240
Speaker 3: And the thing is they don't just farm it all out,

402
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,560
Speaker 3: you know, they know what can be done, and then

403
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,879
Speaker 3: they they know that they should be tasting the sauce

404
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,280
Speaker 3: here and making you know, they really know their own

405
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,800
Speaker 3: They have the mastery of each of these skills. Anyway,

406
00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,920
Speaker 3: during COVID, a book agent came to me and said, JJ,

407
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,480
Speaker 3: you know everyone is miserable. They've been inside their homes.

408
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Speaker 3: I think we need a book on all of this

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Speaker 3: brilliance and exuberance that is Italy and all those images

410
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Speaker 3: that you've produced over the years. I've done so many

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Speaker 3: photos of tabletops and our homeware and food and the fashion,

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Speaker 3: and I said, you know, it feels like kind of

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Speaker 3: a cliche. I feel like, you know, we've seen a

414
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Speaker 3: lot of books like this. I'm happy to give it

415
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Speaker 3: to you, but if I do that, I also want

416
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Speaker 3: to tell the real story, which was I was miserable

417
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Speaker 3: in Italy for my first five years there, and I

418
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:38,080
Speaker 3: was fighting against the system. I was irritated at every turn.

419
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Speaker 3: I was getting pissed off. I was fighting with people

420
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Speaker 3: at cocktail parties because their movies were dubbed, and I

421
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 3: was like against dubbing, I mean the most like absurd,

422
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Speaker 3: superficial things. I found myself in bank lines for two

423
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Speaker 3: hours for no reason, just to like depositive check, I mean,

424
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Speaker 3: just you know, the inefficiency, et cetera. And it really

425
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,359
Speaker 3: took me. So, I mean, I could feel my whole

426
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:06,159
Speaker 3: body system in resistance and rejection of everything that was

427
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Speaker 3: around me. And I was rejecting the food. I was

428
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:13,640
Speaker 3: rejecting the customs, the traditions, the timetables, the rhythms. Everything

429
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Speaker 3: was wrong in my mind. And this was just my huberus.

430
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Speaker 3: This was my American privilege, coming over and thinking that like,

431
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Speaker 3: my way was better than like five thousand years of expertise.

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Speaker 3: And so the book is a it's journey of surrender

433
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:38,479
Speaker 3: and of letting go of that judgment, that criticism, needing

434
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 3: to have things my way, and slipping into what is

435
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 3: actually a very feminine energetic of Italy. So that's why

436
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 3: it's called Mama Milano because I after later in my life,

437
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,199
Speaker 3: I developed a spiritual practice. I started learning, you know,

438
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 3: the difference between masculine and feminine energy, the yin and

439
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 3: the yang, the divine mother. And I'm like, this is

440
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:04,120
Speaker 3: Italy and like America was so quite you know, patriarchal

441
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 3: and go and move and and you know, it's it's

442
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 3: all about checking off things and and it's very transactional.

443
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 3: And I realized Italy is a feeling based culture. It's

444
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 3: a relationship based culture. And I had a lot to learn.

445
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 3: So the book is filled with all the lessons that

446
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 3: I learned. That of course were how to you know,

447
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 3: decorate my table and decorate the house, get myself dressed,

448
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 3: but really how to become a better person.

449
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 2: Did you ever think of leaving? Oh yeah, yeah, but you.

450
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 3: Stayed as critical as I am, I'm also as stubborn.

451
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 3: So I was like, you know, I had made this

452
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 3: decision to move to Italy followed a guy, and I

453
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:46,640
Speaker 3: was like, I wasn't going to give up.

454
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 2: You know. The thing but Italy is that with all

455
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,639
Speaker 2: the we look at Italy and there's a you know,

456
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 2: one political party, then there's another, then there's another, then

457
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 2: there's a Minister of Finance and then there's another, and

458
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,199
Speaker 2: then the way they on the transportation in Florence is

459
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 2: different from Patava, and it just seems to be that chaotic.

460
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,360
Speaker 2: But no, but you know what they do it so well.

461
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 2: You know, they look at Italy, you know, they produce

462
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,439
Speaker 2: beautiful clothes, the beautiful cars. I remember sitting in the

463
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 2: cafe in Florence and every young woman would come and

464
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 2: dress so beautifully, you know, and I think, how do

465
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 2: they are they all kind of making a huge amount

466
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 2: of money and are they how do they spend that

467
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 2: much money on a dress by Prada or a pair

468
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 2: of trousers by a doul Chicabata. And somebody pointed out

469
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 2: that they're probably all living at home. Oh and they're

470
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 2: not paying rent. They're so clever you know, we're all

471
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 2: knocking ourselves to my kids to pay, you know, to

472
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 2: live in a flat with sixteen other people do that,

473
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 2: and you know, they can't go to the movies, or

474
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,400
Speaker 2: you can't go to the fit, or you can't buy

475
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,159
Speaker 2: whatever you want to buy. And then Italy kind of

476
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,439
Speaker 2: works in this way and.

477
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 3: That reinforces this very important focus on and importance of

478
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 3: the family. And I talk about the mother of the

479
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 3: you know, because that's the center of the family, and

480
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 3: the table is the center of the family. And I

481
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,360
Speaker 3: don't have the numbers. This is just is not a scientific.

482
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:14,959
Speaker 2: Steam and no data.

483
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 3: There's no data to support this book. I will just say,

484
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 3: of all the Italians I've met versus all of the Americans,

485
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 3: the Italians are some of the most well adjusted, easygoing, happy,

486
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 3: personally satisfied human beings, Whereas a lot of Americans that

487
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 3: I know are really struggling. And I think a lot

488
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 3: of it has It's not necessarily about food, but so

489
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 3: much of it is like this sense of tolerance that

490
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 3: the Italians have. And they are at a slower pace

491
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 3: and that's okay, and.

492
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 2: They get it done, and they get it done. I agree.

493
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 2: What do you think about because you lived in.

494
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: I lived in Florence when I was a baby, and

495
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: then I also lived in Paris with it. I've spent

496
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 1: most of my lifetime living in England. That's why I

497
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: sound very English. I know what you mean. But the

498
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: pace is much slower, but everything still gets done and

499
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: to the highest standard.

500
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 2: Yeah.

501
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: And it's funny because that family central unit. I know

502
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: my father when he was growing up in Rome, when

503
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 1: you go to university. If you go to university, you

504
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: live at home with your family, which is such a

505
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 1: foreign concept here in England.

506
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 3: And it's not something uncool, No, it's completely normal. Yeah,

507
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,479
Speaker 3: it's actually quite strange. If you don't under is going

508
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 3: to get ironed by your mom.

509
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 2: I mean, it's like amazing. It's interesting about that again,

510
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 2: about women. I always say, if you go to when

511
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 2: we go on the wine trips, you know, we can

512
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 2: all go to Italy to taste the new oil and

513
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 2: the wine, and you go, we go there and we

514
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 2: look fine. But then you go into some little cafe

515
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 2: or bar at a hilltown in Kianti and all the

516
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 2: guys are wearing iron shirts and they're all looking so smart,

517
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 2: and you do wonder about the mothers at home who

518
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 2: are doing that and the women and I'm sure there's

519
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 2: going to tell me. People are going to say, I'm

520
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 2: not iron you sure, I'm just not doing it. You know,

521
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 2: I have a book to read or a book to write,

522
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 2: or some thing I'm going to travel. And it's you know,

523
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 2: it's one of the concerns about as as simple as

524
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 2: jarring tomatoes. You know, who's gonna do that? Yeah, maybe

525
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 2: nobody should do it, maybe robots couldn't do it. Instead

526
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 2: of this romantization of We're all going to stay home

527
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 2: and put jar tomatoes and jars or maybe you know,

528
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 2: because everybody else is going to be doing every other thing,

529
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 2: that would be something that we want to do, you know,

530
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 2: that will be In fact, I was just going to say,

531
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 2: I'm actually.

532
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 3: Seeing men get way more involved in things that I like,

533
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 3: you know, jarring things. You know, there's and there's a

534
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 3: there's a real return also I've seen in the last

535
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 3: twenty years. I used to be a journalist covering fashion

536
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 3: and design for many publications, and one publication, Wallpaper, was

537
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 3: always really interested in like all the artisans. So I

538
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 3: was always interviewing Italian artisans. And what was so cool

539
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 3: was that you had these artisans that were like seventy plus,

540
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 3: and then there was this whole new generation of like

541
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 3: twenty five year olds that realized how cool it was

542
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 3: to be a carpenter or to make something, to make

543
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 3: something with the hands. But there was kind of like

544
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 3: that fifty year gap. So I do think that there's

545
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 3: I just Italy has wonderful values, and it takes longer

546
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 3: to figure it out. It's more chaotic, it's less organized,

547
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,360
Speaker 3: it's less dependable. But once you understand the rhythms, once

548
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,959
Speaker 3: you start realizing that actually all you need is to

549
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 3: make friends, you know, your life just, you know, it

550
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 3: just unravels. It was such a gift to me.

551
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 2: We just had JJ Martin here and I'm here with

552
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 2: Sean now and I'm talking about shops because you know,

553
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 2: she is in retail, she's in design, and she's into spirituality,

554
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 2: and so there is a kind of parallel life although

555
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 2: she's in Milan and we're in London. Of loving beautiful things,

556
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 2: and she's going to open a store in New York

557
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 2: that has a room downstairs where you can meditate, where

558
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 2: you have a kind of spiritual experience as well as

559
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 2: shopping upstairs. I don't know what our spiritual experience would be.

560
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:24,479
Speaker 2: In the River Cafe.

561
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 4: We've got piano.

562
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 2: We have a piano that's spiritual and so especially right

563
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 2: now with Christmas, you know, it's so I think if

564
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 2: joyousness is spiritual, which it is, I think there's such

565
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 2: a joy in our shop. Of the colors, you know,

566
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 2: especially the matches and the books and the bags that

567
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 2: we've branded ourselves, that we've put our signature on. We

568
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 2: thought we'd show you around.

569
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: And we've got lots of things going on at the moment,

570
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: so we've had lots of fun little things.

571
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 2: I know, these Italian.

572
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 3: Right of anxiety piry.

573
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 5: Familiar with them.

574
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 3: This is like legit Italian.

575
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 2: This is this is totally legit Italian.

576
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 3: This is not like so many times my friends bring

577
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 3: me to Italian restaurants. They're never legitimate, you know, they

578
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 3: don't really do it in the Italian way. But this

579
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 3: is this is legit.

580
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: You won't find.

581
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 2: Hi. You know.

582
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 3: What I love about your shop is that you have

583
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 3: very authentic Italian things, but in the packaging that is

584
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 3: like totally not.

585
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 4: One is fine because did she see the hampers?

586
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 2: Did Yeah? She loved them? Yeah? And how many years

587
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 2: have you been doing this hampers six maybe six? I

588
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 2: remember when you were Satistan and said, why don't we

589
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 2: do the alternative to the kind of Fortnam and Mason

590
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 2: hamper instead of putting little jars of things that you

591
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 2: just kind of give away to make a River Cafe hamper.

592
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 4: That's been a big learning curve for us, isn't it,

593
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 4: Because when the brief is that nothing in the hamper

594
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 4: gets put in the back of a cupboard. That was

595
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 4: at one of our defining things that we had given

596
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,239
Speaker 4: away to somebody who came to know everything in it

597
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 4: has to be You couldn't go round any shop in

598
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 4: Britain and put all those things in a box and

599
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 4: get that for the you know, the price, which so

600
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 4: it felt like an honest product. But also if I

601
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 4: had to feel like something that we would all like

602
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 4: to receive and Ruthie would like to receive, so that.

603
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 2: That was our We put books and it was so

604
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 2: nice when we can put one of our books in

605
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: one year we put a book of Richardson. We wanted

606
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 2: always to put music in but we've never achieved that playlist,

607
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: a playlist and the glasses, as you said, and I

608
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 2: think the joy of the box itself. People really love

609
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 2: the box, so they talk about opening up a brown

610
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 2: package and seeing this pink and yellow box and opening

611
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 2: that up and finding a beautifully packed Yeah.

612
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 4: And this year we were in Venice and we found

613
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 4: this really great linen shop and they've done these snapkins

614
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 4: for us this year, which a really nice cocktail naps.

615
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 4: And we often go round to shop ourselves and covert

616
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 4: things that we want to buy because it's just so

617
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 4: would buy. I love the fruit jellies. I think they

618
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 4: are bring back a fruit jelly. I say that's quite

619
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 4: an old fashioned thing. They're really beautiful. I love the

620
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 4: cocktail stirs sensing a trend by anything shout out.

621
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 2: Else? Is that the kids coloring really cool? I like

622
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 2: the playing cards. Yeah, and also hello the crackers. Yeah,

623
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 2: we have great crackers.

624
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 4: Well that's a bit of fun. Trying to design a

625
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 4: cracker where you've got something in it that doesn't get

626
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 4: just thrown away. We felt that was the hardest challenge.

627
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 4: But this year we've done these really cute badges. They're

628
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 4: like a kind of enamel pin. My favorite is a

629
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 4: spaghetti bonglai badge.

630
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 2: The River Cafe is excited to announce the return of

631
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 2: our Italian Christmas gift box is our alternative to the

632
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 2: traditional hamper. They bring you all of our favorites from

633
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 2: the River Cafe, kitchen, the vineyards and the designers from

634
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 2: all over Italy. They're available to pre order now on

635
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 2: shop at the River Cafe dot co dot UK. You

636
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 2: worked for Calvin Klein before you went to Italy, and

637
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 2: I remember a very good friend of mine worked with

638
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 2: Calvin Klein and she was in quite a senior position.

639
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 2: But they had a rule that if anybody sent you flowers,

640
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 2: they had to be white. So I mean, talk about control.

641
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 2: I mean I kind of respect it because sometimes you

642
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 2: go into this array of kind of flowers in every

643
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 2: single color. But it's interesting that you went from a

644
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,719
Speaker 2: company like that that was so controlled to what you

645
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 2: know and then your joy of what you've done and

646
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 2: you know, and I want to talk more about your life.

647
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 3: I felt so stifled at Calvin Kline. I have to

648
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 3: say it was. It was kind of a scary place

649
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 3: to be. Even the yellow sticky pads were white, so

650
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 3: the I mean, everything was sterilized. That was the moment

651
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 3: in my life that I discovered vintage because I didn't

652
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 3: have a lot of money, and the Chelsea Flea Market

653
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 3: in Manhattan every weekend had this incredible vintage fair. And

654
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 3: that was back in you know, nineteen ninety nine, when

655
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,760
Speaker 3: prices were still incredible, and so you could just get

656
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 3: these incredible you know, coats and gowns and and and

657
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 3: so I was really developing that like eccentric, colorful pattern

658
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 3: loving thing that was always in me. You know, the

659
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 3: Calvin aesthetic was never really my thing.

660
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 2: But they did do beautiful clothes as well, amazing quote

661
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 2: yeah in Italy, and underwear and it made in Italy. Yeah.

662
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 2: That's the other thing about Italy, the respect I have

663
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 2: for the Italian, as you say, either craftsmanship or workmanship.

664
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 2: I remember the first time Rose and I went to

665
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 2: look at where they made parmesan. We went down this

666
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 2: really dirty, dusty road and it was kind of you

667
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 2: know everything. You saw these barns in the background. We thought,

668
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 2: where are we going? What are we doing? And then

669
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 2: you walked into this kitchen where they were making the

670
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 2: parmesan cheese. And they could have been making rockets to

671
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 2: go into outer space, or they could have been doing

672
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 2: a kind of vaccine to cure a disease. They all

673
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 2: had masks, they had white coats, they had their hair

674
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 2: tied up, you know, And it's a kind of in

675
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 2: built pride which I sew sewing respect. You know.

676
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,720
Speaker 3: Did you ever go see any of the reculta being made?

677
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 3: And yes, I did, Yes, warm for breakfast.

678
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 2: I know that's another parallel that maybe we don't have

679
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 2: because I remember taking that ricotta out of the thing

680
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 2: and it was warm, and it was hot, and I

681
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 2: thought I might be sick. But let's talk about your eating.

682
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 2: So we eat more ricotta for breakfast.

683
00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, when I can.

684
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 2: Okay, So how do you how do you do that?

685
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 4: What?

686
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 2: And what way do you have it? On a bad

687
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,359
Speaker 2: piece of bread? You take a piece of piece of bread?

688
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,919
Speaker 2: But okay, so you take a piece of that. We

689
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 2: do in the River Cafe, and we love that baked,

690
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:13,720
Speaker 2: don't we say? Say what do we do with ricotta?

691
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: Absolutely? We also bake it in our wood oven with

692
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: a little bit of oregono, and so it's all slightly

693
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:21,439
Speaker 1: crispy at the edges and then really soft and warm

694
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: in the middle of frost.

695
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 3: That's another thing. Oregonal for me was a game. There

696
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 3: were certain ingredients. Once you come to Italy like olive

697
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 3: oil that I was like, whoa, what is that like?

698
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 3: It's like a whole new thing. Same with oregano from

699
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 3: Sicily or from the south of Italy wherever, especially Pendeluri.

700
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 3: I don't know if you've ever met to the island

701
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,919
Speaker 3: of Pendealeria, but the capers and the oregano from that

702
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 3: part of Italy. I like to buy food when I'm

703
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,439
Speaker 3: traveling to get the local you know, the frieze from

704
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 3: Pulia or the especially the the capers and the oregano,

705
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 3: or just sensationally, I buy a lot of it and

706
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,760
Speaker 3: is dried and then I just fill up my jars.

707
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 3: You know, you're not whatever. I'm not going to get

708
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 3: cilantro in Italy.

709
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 2: I have not surrendered taking go back to California, but

710
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 2: I'm not getting cilantro. Do you feel do you feel

711
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 2: as you speak Italian beautifully and you've lived there and

712
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 2: you have a company, do you feel linked to the

713
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 2: country of your birth in political or social?

714
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,240
Speaker 3: Absolutely? I mean I do. I both of my parents

715
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 3: are deceased. I have two brothers that live around Los Angeles.

716
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 3: But there's something really powerful, you know. My mom's family

717
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 3: was from Los Angeles. So her grandfather moved there in

718
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 3: the early nineteen hundreds, and so there is this kind

719
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 3: of like ancestral thing whenever I go back, and I

720
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 3: feel it energetically too. I do, and I think the

721
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 3: earth of our birth is so powerful and you've got it,

722
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 3: you know. I had to do a lot of clearing there.

723
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 3: I had to do a lot of letting go, a

724
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 3: lot of forgiveness. And now I go back to Los

725
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 3: Angeles and I just I'm like, there's a reason it's

726
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 3: called the City of Angels. I feel it. It's so potent.

727
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 3: That being said, I don't really want to live there

728
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 3: all the time. I love having the kind of best

729
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 3: best of both worlds, and I don't really feel like, I,

730
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 3: you know, like either one is really my home. I don't.

731
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm just a home on planet Earth. Yeah.

732
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 2: Do you find being a woman in Italy we talk

733
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 2: about the role of the woman as a mother, as

734
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 2: a connector, as the person who creates the people who

735
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 2: can then create. But do you feel as a woman

736
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 2: that you're treated differently in business as you might be

737
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 2: in the United States. Do you have the respect for

738
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 2: your work that you would have.

739
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 3: I think they're surprised every time I show up and

740
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 3: like I'm the boss, and I think they're like, you know,

741
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 3: they're sort of like, oh wow. But this is the

742
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 3: thing about it time. They're very open minded. Yeah, so

743
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 3: I think that it's like it doesn't occur to them,

744
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 3: it would happen, but when it happens, they're very open.

745
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 3: And the thing about an Italian if you can just

746
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 3: connect to their heart and get them excited and motivated

747
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 3: about something, they will do anything for you. You know,

748
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 3: when I started the website, all those women they were

749
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 3: gallery owners, they were furniture designers, architects. You know, they

750
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 3: weren't bankers. They were all creative people. There aren't quite

751
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 3: a few powerful women.

752
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:26,240
Speaker 2: Are your prime Minister?

753
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:28,919
Speaker 3: Is that the I mean even you know, you see

754
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 3: that like the Massoni family with Angela and Resita. There's

755
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 3: a lot of female like the Wanda Ferragamo taking over

756
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 3: ver Salvatore. You know, Max Maara is led creatively by

757
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,919
Speaker 3: a woman who's been there for like fifty years. There's

758
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 3: a lot of like Donna Tulliversace. There's a lot of

759
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 3: Musica Prada.

760
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 2: Yeah they're bossy, yeah, oh wait, they're they're strong articly.

761
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 4: Right.

762
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 2: You know, I'm actually better ambitious and then women a

763
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 2: bossy But that's all right. I think we can be there,

764
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 2: but we can be bossy too. BOSSI is okay. How

765
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 2: many people work for you? Seventy seventy, one of whom

766
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 2: is sorry, it was better about this, says, So you

767
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 2: told me the story about the kitchen I did.

768
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: I did read somewhere that when you were searching for

769
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 1: a new kitchen for your house in Milan, you had

770
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: a friend of yours who suggested that that was a

771
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 1: sort of nineties poloform kitchen. Would you mind telling us

772
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:42,240
Speaker 1: the story?

773
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 3: There was so I was newly divorced. I had to

774
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,399
Speaker 3: start home from scratch. And you know, when you move

775
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 3: into apartments in Italy, there's generally no lights, no kitchens,

776
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,800
Speaker 3: no closets. It doesn't matter if you're buying or renting

777
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 3: like that, it's just their empty boxes. So you basically

778
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 3: have to start from scratch, so it's quite like an expense.

779
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 3: I was like, I guess I'm getting any kea kitchen, Like,

780
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 3: I guess That's what I'm doing. And I had a

781
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 3: friend who he's a wonderful antique dealer, Rymondo Garral Look

782
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 3: him up when you're in Milan. He has just the

783
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 3: most fabulous eye. Finds pieces so special and I always

784
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 3: kind of refer to him anytime that I'm doing something new,

785
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 3: and I just we this is so Italian. Come over,

786
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 3: let's have a cup of coffee and talk about my

787
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 3: new creative project. This happens all the time. So he

788
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 3: came over and he was like, you know what, I

789
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 3: think there's a Signora. I'm buying some other stuff from her.

790
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 3: She might have a kitchen. Let me just see. He

791
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 3: calls me up and a few days later he's like, yeah,

792
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 3: you know, she's got this nineties polyform kitchen. It's Bordeaux red,

793
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 3: and but you know it's about what did he say,

794
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 3: what's this like twenty centimeter or something like He's like

795
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 3: his twenty centimeters too short for your wall. I was like, Raymondo,

796
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 3: I can handle like an twenty centimeter hole. I mean,

797
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 3: that was so Italian that he had, like it had

798
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 3: to go all the way to that. I'm I'll use

799
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 3: it as a broom closet. So the next thing I know,

800
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 3: this marble topped polyform kitchen that cost me in order

801
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 3: to buy it, ship it and install it. Ship it.

802
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 3: It was in Milan, but bring it over cost me

803
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 3: less than going to get a new, tricked out Eka kitchen.

804
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 3: And it brings me so much satisfaction. This kitchen is

805
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 3: so gorgeous and I'd love cooking on it. I mean

806
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 3: the only problem is that they don't have gas. It's

807
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 3: it's annoying.

808
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. I have a kitchen story, which is that my husband,

809
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 2: Richard Rogers built, was building the Lloyd's building. I've all

810
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 2: we moved into our house. We need to have an

811
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 2: island unit. You'll have to come and seated and stay

812
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 2: inless deal. And it has five five burners, so it's

813
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 2: in the living space. It's very very minimalist. And this

814
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,959
Speaker 2: is before I was cooking in a restaurant. And we've

815
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 2: had it for forty years and for the last I'd

816
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 2: say twenty years. You can't light all five burners at

817
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 2: the same time, no, so you can light one and

818
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 2: then maybe you can light the other. And so every

819
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 2: engineer in London would come over and try and fix

820
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 2: the gas, and try and do this, and try and

821
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,720
Speaker 2: do that. And I went into Boffy. You know, Buffy

822
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 2: was just really fancy Italian fancy. I went over there

823
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 2: and I was joined to the guy and I said,

824
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:20,919
Speaker 2: you know, I told I told him. He said, Richard

825
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 2: Rogers house, amazing. I'd love to I'll solve this problem

826
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 2: for you. And I would come in and he'd be

827
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 2: lying on the floor underneath the island unit, drawing, you know,

828
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 2: all the gas and the places and where the where

829
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 2: the gas flowed, and how's it going? Is going fine?

830
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 2: You know, I'm really doing well. He left, and then

831
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 2: three days later we got a letter from him. He said,

832
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 2: dear Ruth Rogers and Richard Rogers, I have spent five

833
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 2: days in your kitchen, and what I really think is

834
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 2: that it's the most beautiful kitchen I've ever seen, and

835
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,280
Speaker 2: that you should donate it to the Museum of Modern

836
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 2: Art in New York and buy a baffy kitchen, which

837
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 2: we didn't do. I still have. You know, thirty years

838
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 2: later you have to light it ten times. But to

839
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:09,720
Speaker 2: know a kitchen is important. It's important how you work

840
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 2: in it, how you live in it, how you and

841
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:12,399
Speaker 2: you don't make it work.

842
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 3: It be so funny because I also found that when

843
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 3: I was a journalist, I found the cook the process

844
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 3: of cooking so helpful because whenever I had a creative

845
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 3: block and I couldn't write, I could cook and then

846
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 3: I would get back into the flow because so much

847
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 3: of creativity is just allowing yourself to get into that frequency.

848
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:35,399
Speaker 3: And it was so healthy and satisfying for me. The

849
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 3: bigger my company gets and the more responsibility to have

850
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 3: and the more travel I have, I find it very

851
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 3: challenging to spend as much time cooking. I usually do

852
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 3: it on the weekends. But it's really nice. I'm in

853
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 3: a new relationship now and it's so fun to have

854
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 3: a boyfriend that cooks for me. I'm like, this is

855
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 3: the sex thing that could ever happen.

856
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, we said that to Michael Kay in the first

857
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,919
Speaker 2: interview we did, because there's a scene in this movie,

858
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,080
Speaker 2: The Ipcress File where he seduces a woman by cooking

859
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 2: for her, and you get it.

860
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 3: You know it is so because not only is it,

861
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 3: I mean it's just it's so nurturing and they're like

862
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,399
Speaker 3: so self relying in it. It's such a gift. It's

863
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 3: really amazing.

864
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 2: And so what do you what would you like to

865
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 2: do next? What is your plan? So I have a

866
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 2: kind of yeah, where you'd like to be in a

867
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 2: year's time, five years time, next month.

868
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 3: Okay, so next year, I'd like to have a store

869
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 3: open in New York, and I'd like it to kind

870
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 3: of be weird. Like my Ma Lonstra. We have a

871
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 3: Divine Mother Goddess cave downstairs. You have to come and visit.

872
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 4: What is it?

873
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 2: Divine Mother Goddess cave way, I say, I'm coming to visit.

874
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:38,919
Speaker 2: I'm not committing to anything. I don't know what it.

875
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:44,359
Speaker 3: Is, so it's it's underground. I commissioned this artist from

876
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 3: Romania to kind of create this whole descent into the feminine,

877
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 3: into the darkness, and so she's got all of these symbols,

878
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 3: mystical symbols that she's painted. And then I asked her

879
00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 3: to paint me five manifestations of the Mother. So you

880
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,720
Speaker 3: have Collie, you have Kwan Yin, you have Mother Mary,

881
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:10,919
Speaker 3: Isis and Green Tara, and they're all mother frequencies from

882
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 3: different wisdom traditions, et cetera. But they're all really talking

883
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 3: about the same thing, which is this feminine energetic I

884
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 3: really started getting like obsessed with this, you know. It

885
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 3: was like Italy was teaching me this. I was learning

886
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 3: about it in my spiritual practice, and we use this

887
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 3: space downstairs. We hold meditations there, yoga, spiritual channelings, all

888
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 3: sorts of different things. So you know, this is on

889
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 3: the most traditional road in Milan. You've got a very

890
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 3: untraditional thing happening. So when I go to New York,

891
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 3: I'd like to do another thing as well where we

892
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 3: Maybe it would be nice also in New York to

893
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 3: have some of our homewhere that we create alongside the

894
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 3: fashion has been popping up in little cafes here there,

895
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 3: and I think like it would be really nice to

896
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 3: have a showcase for that. So maybe partnering with someone

897
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,359
Speaker 3: in New York that would be a great deal. Real

898
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 3: goal is ultimately to buy a piece of property in

899
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 3: Sicily and open up a retreat center.

900
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 2: Okay, can you do that? Why not?

901
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 3: I think so?

902
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 2: I think you can. I think I can do anything.

903
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 2: I think I can. You know, I think you have.

904
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 2: Maybe I'd love to see this. Yeah, it sounds to

905
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 2: be like you can. You have done so much, and

906
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 2: so I think before we we end this really fabulous conversation,

907
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 2: I would ask you. We've talked about food as adapting

908
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 2: of surrendering. We've talked about food is connecting. We've talked

909
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 2: about food is creating, but it also is comfort. And

910
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 2: so my last question to you, JJ is to ask

911
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 2: you if you need comfort, and I hope you don't

912
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 2: very often, but if you need comfort, and do you

913
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 2: want to find it in food, what would be the

914
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 2: food you would reach for?

915
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 3: Okay, So I'm just going to be really honest and

916
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 3: tell you, for many years, sugar was my comfort food

917
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 3: and I was using it and abusing it was such

918
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 3: a gift, it was such a friend, and then it

919
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 3: was such an enemy. So for many many years my

920
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 3: comfort food was those chewy American cookies. So I would

921
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 3: even like when I first I was really using it

922
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 3: as like you know, as someone would alcohol or drugs.

923
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 3: I mean, it was really my drug. And I would

924
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 3: in Italy because I couldn't find the desserts, I would

925
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:28,280
Speaker 3: make cookie dough, especially oat milk. How good is oatmeal? Cookie?

926
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 4: Do?

927
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,760
Speaker 3: It's the best? So you know, it's a really honest question.

928
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 3: I mean, like people do use many people use food

929
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 3: as true comfort, and I was using that for a

930
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:39,240
Speaker 3: long time. I try not to eat as much sugar

931
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,879
Speaker 3: like that because it's it's not good for my system.

932
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 3: So now just a homemade plate of a spaghetti that

933
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 3: I learned, a taliate that I learned in Pantalaria that

934
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 3: has capers, alives, tomatoes, super simple, a pasta dish gives

935
00:48:57,800 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 3: me that comfort food.

936
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 2: That the.

937
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 4: I use.

938
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

939
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 3: Well also because most of the time I'm trying to

940
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,320
Speaker 3: go like gluten free, so I'm eating my quenewie and

941
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 3: I'm my white brown rice and then but if I

942
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 3: really want to, I might bring it on.

943
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 2: Okay, well, let's go have some faster. Thank you so

944
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 2: much for coming today. I'll see you in Milan.

945
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 5: Ruthie's Table four is produced by Atami Studios for iHeartRadio.

946
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 5: It is hosted by Ruthie Rodgers. It's produced by William Lensky.

947
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 5: Our executive producers are Zad Rogers and Fay Stewart. Our

948
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 5: production manager is Caitlin Paramore. Our production coordinator is Bella Selini.

949
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 5: This episode had additional contributions by Ceci Jusipetti. Sean special

950
00:49:46,560 --> 00:50:01,399
Speaker 5: thanks to everyone at the River Cafe

951
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 4: To