1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how stup 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 1: Caroline and I'm Kristin. And this week christ and I 4 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 1: are talking about a couple of different groups of women, 5 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: but all of them are sort of maligned and mistrusted wives. Yeah, 6 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: there's definitely stigma and stereotype surrounding both women who go 7 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:38,959 Speaker 1: through divorces, particularly first wives and particularly first wives who 8 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: are in very wealthy unions. And then trophy wives. Yeah, 9 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: so two groups of women that people are sort of 10 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 1: suspicious of, to say the least. Um, But yeah, without 11 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: further ado, let's let's dive into talking about the divorcee. 12 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: The woman that we tend to think of as older. 13 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: Probably she's wealthy, she's swilling a martini, holding a little dog, 14 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: she's she's probably a real housewife, honestly, or she's a 15 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: struggling single mom. Yeah, honestly, that is the more accurate 16 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: representation of a divorce in the US. Well, and when 17 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: it comes to divorce, it's no big surprise that America 18 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: is pretty divorced happy. According to statistics from January two 19 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: thousand and eleven, we have the highest divorce rate really 20 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:38,119 Speaker 1: in the Western hemisphere. Uh, there were three points seven 21 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: divorces per one thousand people, which is higher than the 22 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: average EU country, which is at two point one divorces 23 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: per one thousand people. So we get married all the 24 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: time in the US, and then we get divorced all 25 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: the time of the US, But the divorce rate is 26 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: not at an all time high and actually dropped. Yeah, 27 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: it's it's sort of been kind of plateauing for the 28 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: past several years. And I don't know. I mean, people 29 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: fret so much about our divorce rate in America, but 30 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: I also think that maybe that's a good sign that 31 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: both our marriage and divorce rates are really high. People 32 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: are seeking happiness, except that divorce can have bad effects 33 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: on families. So anyway, like Kristen said, the divorce rate 34 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: has actually gone down a little in the past twenty years. 35 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: But let's break it down further. From nineteen sixty to 36 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, the share of currently divorced or 37 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: separated Americans jumped from five percent to fourteen percent. Divorce 38 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: itself hit an all time high background the late seventies 39 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: and early eighties. After rising sharply in the sixties and seventies, 40 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: so it's interesting to think about the context of the time, 41 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: what's going on socially in our country. We're getting women's 42 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: lib we're getting civil rights movements, were getting birth control, 43 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: and then suddenly people are like, I think I'm gonna 44 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: go Yeah, divorce becomes easier in a way or legally speaking. 45 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 1: And one of the most fascinating sources that we ran 46 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: across was a nineteen sixty two Harper's Bizarre article about 47 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: the young divorcee and tracks her path from her first 48 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: marriage and having kids, then getting divorced and dealing with 49 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: her social life and personal life post divorce, and then 50 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: leading up to remarriage because that at the time seems 51 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: like the only option for her. Yeah, it was super 52 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 1: It was an interesting, you know, faux profile of a woman, 53 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: and it it noted the article noted the uptick and 54 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: divorce in the country, and it really sort of fretted 55 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: about the weird limbo that divorced women find themselves in 56 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: because it didn't speak super negatively about the issue of 57 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: a woman being independent. I mean, it was kind of 58 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: like poo pooing it, but it wasn't saying that, oh, 59 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: a divorced woman is a terrible person. But then it 60 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: was sort of worried about the issues of sex. Yeah, 61 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: I mean, because if a divorced woman has kids, obviously 62 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: she has had sex before, so it's there. There's not 63 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: the chastity kind of crown for her to wear around, right. 64 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: And the article quoted a divorce attorney who had watched 65 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: as his clients over the years morphed from older men 66 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: who were leaving their wives for younger women into middle 67 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 1: aged women who just wanted out despite the guilt they 68 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 1: might feel, and also quote being felt by everyone around 69 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: her to be selfish and irresponsible at the least seriously neurotic. 70 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: And reading this article, Caroline, especially since it came out 71 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty two, made me think so much about 72 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 1: Mad Men and Betty Draper getting divorced from Don Draper 73 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: and immediately getting remarried, And I was trying to think, 74 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 1: in the context of the show whether there were similar 75 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: echoes of this Harper's bizarre article, but at least as 76 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: it was portrayed in the show. She segus so quickly 77 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: into her second marriage, and it's too well to do politician, 78 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 1: and she's a beautiful woman, so she's immediately kind of 79 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: set back up as an esteemed wife and mother and 80 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: not having to go through that divorce safe is yeah, Well, 81 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: this article looked at sort of why a wife would 82 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,239 Speaker 1: just walk away from a husband. You've got a family, 83 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: you've got a husband. What could possibly be wrong? And 84 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: they spell it out. They say that it has everything 85 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: to do with sex, sexual incompatibility, sexual limitations, simply looking 86 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: beyond her husband for the first time, trying to escape 87 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: the quote malaise of life, and asking herself in general, 88 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: is this all there's going to be? Forever? And they 89 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: write about it as if this is the first time 90 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 1: that women are having these thoughts at all, that they're 91 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: finally feeling the freedom to be like, oh wait, I'm 92 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 1: not satisfied. Not that that freedom to think that is 93 00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: necessarily good. They do kind of frame it in a 94 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: way of like why why isn't this good enough for you? Well, 95 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 1: and there seems to be this period post divorce that 96 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: this young divorce in nineteen sixty two really enjoys her 97 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: single hood. She doesn't want to say that the loss 98 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: of her marriage, the divorce, having to take care of 99 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: her children as a single mom are tragic, and she 100 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: doesn't want to ask anyone's forgiveness, and she might in 101 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 1: a way feel a little bit entitled to some admiration. 102 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: But then she quickly notices that her married friends disappear, 103 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: and might this jumped out to me, and might be 104 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: hanging out with her ex husband because she is more 105 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 1: of a threat, she realizes, to the fabric of society, 106 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: because she is a woman who will fully chooses to 107 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: step away from the safety and security of being a 108 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: suburban wife and mother. Yeah, and then it paints this 109 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: sort of grim picture of this woman, this divorce who's 110 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 1: going on dates where maybe she chooses to go home 111 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: with the man, or maybe she just has to sit 112 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: there through the whole dinner and figure out a safe 113 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 1: way to tell him she doesn't want to go home 114 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: with him. But so then they end up describing the 115 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: men that she's going on dates with, these either fellow 116 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: divorced people or no longer young bachelors, and they write, 117 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: these men are vast consumers of female companionship, being as 118 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: they are inhabitants of a world that makes it somehow 119 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: unpleasant for people to do such things as eden restaurants, 120 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: attend the theater, or even arrive at parties alone. And 121 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: they seem to consume women either by not being pleased 122 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: with them or by marrying them at a rate much 123 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: faster than women of suitable age and circumstance can be produced. 124 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: So then that leads us into a whole conversation in 125 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: this article about people sort of feeling like they're at 126 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: the end of their rope and they've just got to 127 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: remarry or find someone who can fill that gap, because 128 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: that's just what you do. Yeah, And and because of that, 129 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: they usually end up remarrying for factors like the convenience though, 130 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: well why not the companionship factor, and also making more 131 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: economic sense, and maybe even for sex without judgment. Yeah. Really, 132 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: it was a really interesting article. It was a really 133 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: interesting snapshot into this period in time when divorce was skyrocketing. 134 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: But let's move back to some Pew Research Center statistics 135 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: looking at what does actually increase the risk of divorce 136 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,079 Speaker 1: beyond just that malaise of life trying to escape it, 137 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: and Pew lists having less education, marrying younger, just being 138 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: younger and marrying during the seventies is in itself a factor. Well, thankfully, Caroline, 139 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: we're in the clear. If we were to get married anytime. Yes, 140 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: I would have been negative a couple of years old. 141 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: And so when you look at that age factor, men's 142 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: median age a divorce is a little it's almost thirty 143 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: two years old, and for women it's just about twenty 144 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,199 Speaker 1: nine and a half. Oh man, we're we we should 145 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: have gone through our first divorces. Caroline, I know, would 146 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: be divorced. And I feel like, and correct me if 147 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: I'm wrong or if I'm just making this up, but 148 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: I feel like the stereotype of a divorcee is that 149 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: she's she's much older and that she's been abandoned for 150 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 1: a younger woman. But only about eleven percent of women's 151 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: six and up are divorced. So well, yeah, because by 152 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: that point, probably if you stuck it out, then you're like, well, 153 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: we've been together for thirty years, might as well make 154 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: it fifty. Go for it. Um. I will say one 155 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: thing though, about the rate of divorce kind of leveling 156 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: off in recent years too. It's not so much because 157 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: we've fallen in love more and more effectively, but largely 158 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: because of the recession, because we didn't have money to divorce, 159 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: so we stuck together. So people think that we will 160 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: soon be seeing more of an uptick and divorce if 161 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: we haven't already. But with that uptick and divorce, the 162 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,079 Speaker 1: question is will we see an uptick in this you 163 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: wor say stereotype, which does feel very mad Men era 164 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 1: when you start reading about it thinking about women swelling 165 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: Martini's and not so much the small dogs thing. But 166 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: I am thinking of Roger Sterling's divorced starry. I've been 167 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: catching up on Mattman lately, but Roger Sterling an older guy. 168 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: He's probably in his fifties early sixties. He's a silver fox, 169 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: and he divorces his wife, who is the older divorce 170 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: classic wealthy Manhattan stereotype. Oh yeah, I was definitely interested 171 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: in going into this episode and finding out how true 172 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: the stereotype is. And basically, spoiler, what we uncovered is 173 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: that the stereotype of this older, wealthy woman who's perhaps 174 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: a little bit gold digging, it's only really, it only 175 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: really crops up among the wealthy. It's not like your 176 00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: average divorcee is always going to be gold digging with 177 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: the small dog and everything. Um. And there's one example 178 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: that stuck out in the news from January uh that 179 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: sort of fit into this ugly stereotype that we have culturally. 180 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: This is coming from the New York Posts, so you know, 181 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: they had nothing nice to say about the people involved. 182 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: But Sue and Arnold his fifty six and her ex husband, 183 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 1: oil tycoon Harold Ham were married for twenty six years, 184 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: they got a divorce. He writes her a check for 185 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: more than nine d and seventy four million dollars after 186 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 1: paying her more than twenty million during their actual divorce proceedings, 187 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: and the New York Post went crazy, frothing at the 188 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: mouth over the fact that Sue Anne Arnold turned down 189 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: the check for being too little, and they dubbed her angry. 190 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: They definitely painted her as the typical angry gold digging divorce. 191 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: Of course, her lawyers clarified that, like Well, accepting this 192 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: check would actually risk the dismissal of her appeal that 193 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 1: is in court, the appeal having granted her million dollars. 194 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of money at play in these 195 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: sort of big name, top of the heat divorce proceedings. 196 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: Well in the media love either uh super wealthy or 197 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:22,719 Speaker 1: celebrity divorce, and usually the women in these stories are 198 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: painted as, like you said, either a little bit gold 199 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: digging who are trying to grasp onto every penny in 200 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: every vacation house they can possibly sink their manicured claws 201 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 1: into or their objects to be pitied because they lost 202 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: their looks and then their husbands moved on to someone younger, 203 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: as in the case of say a Carol McCain, Senator 204 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: John McCain's first wife, who in another grain of salt 205 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: quote unquote news story in the Daily Mail profiling the 206 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: dissolving of their marriage after McCain came back from the 207 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:06,439 Speaker 1: Vietnam War and ended up leaving her for his now wife, 208 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: Cindy McCain. And was there an overlap in the marriage, Yes, 209 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: there was. And while McCain was in the Hanoi Hilton 210 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: in Vietnam, Carol McCain, who they report and used to 211 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: be a beautiful swimsuit model, she was in this horrific 212 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: car accident and it disfigured her. And it was basically like, 213 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: oh and now she you know, she wasn't attractive enough, essentially, 214 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: and they did painted as a kind of a disgusting 215 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: story on his end, but it always fits into these 216 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: kinds of narratives are very formulaic, and the way that 217 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: they are told in such kinds of similarly salacious details. Yeah. 218 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: And in addition to the whole Carol McCain being left 219 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: behind by her ex, we've got the Jane Hawking narrative. 220 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 1: She was left by Stephen Hawking. He left her for 221 00:13:55,559 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: his nurse. And the Guardian, uh newspaper doesn't treat Jane 222 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: Hawking in their story about her nearly as badly as 223 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,959 Speaker 1: the Daily Mail treated McCain, but they still write about 224 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: her life with Hawking. Quote has left her a legacy 225 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: of deep regret and though she tries to hide it, bitterness. Yeah. 226 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: I mean, both of these stories were highly sympathetic to 227 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: these women because both of them were left for other women. 228 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: And I gotta say, Okay, I have not seen a 229 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: theory of everything. The Stephen Hawking biopic that got all 230 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: the Oscar attention. But during the Oscars and throughout all 231 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: of the publicity for that film, you know that that 232 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: is about Jane and Stephen Hawking's early romance. I could 233 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: only think, Dear God, are we really creating this? I mean, 234 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: there's this love story, but I'm just curious whether it 235 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: includes the not so romantic ending of that marriage. I mean, 236 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: and even within the marriage while it was still intact. 237 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: She talks about how their relationship was not a perfect 238 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: one at all. But you know, reality check again, no 239 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: marriage is perfect. What I know, party pooper aller talk 240 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: about a spoiler jeez um, Well yeah, I mean speaking 241 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: of reality checks, this whole wealthy couple news story or 242 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: the narrative that we're so used to hearing about divorces 243 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: really hides the reality that, hey, it's not typically the 244 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: woman who becomes super wealthy after a divorce. Men become 245 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: richer by about a third after divorce and their earning 246 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: potential does not get dinged because of it, while women 247 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: tend to lose more than a fifth of their income. 248 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: And also, typically if women end up getting custody of 249 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: the kids, they give up reaching their full earning potential 250 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: to care for them. And plus it's hard to make 251 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: up for those lost years of not working well married. 252 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: So while you know, in these wealthy marriages, the man 253 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: might have kept working, kept earning, kept moving at that ladder, 254 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: and the woman didn't work, Then if she's suddenly divorced 255 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: and she has to re enter the workforce, she has 256 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: a lot of time that's left out on her resume. 257 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: And that was one thing too that jumped out to 258 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: me in that nineteen sixty two Harper's bizarre piece the 259 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: Sympathy with which the author notes that the young deforce 260 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: has to go back to work. She's like, well, and 261 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: then there's a whole job thing. Yeah, I mean it talks. 262 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: It talks about how this woman, and in the beginning 263 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: of her marriage, was so eager to to join the 264 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: workforce to help out. But I'll thank god once once 265 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: the husband got on a stable professional footing, she could 266 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: get out of there. Well. And even not to say 267 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: that that all of these divorce days don't have jobs before, 268 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: but they might simply, especially in these wealthy relationships, their 269 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: career was probably taking a back seat in whatever way 270 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: that meant um to their husband's. And also to quick 271 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: acknowledgment that this is a straight up pun had her 272 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: enormative conversation right now, this is still I mean, because 273 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: gay marriage is not has not been around legally long 274 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: enough for us to even have built these stereotypes around 275 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: gay deporces. Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, if you want 276 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: to talk about a wife's career taking a backseat to 277 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: a husband's, just look, no, further than the relationship between 278 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 1: Elon and Justine Musk. And of course, Elon Musk is 279 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: the PayPal founder who made a bajillion dollars and Justine 280 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: read a column from Marie Claire back in and her 281 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: narrative is one that's pretty familiar to anyone who's ever 282 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: you know, watched a movie or seen a soap opera. 283 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 1: Her wealthy, controlling husband leaves her, and she's a writer 284 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,479 Speaker 1: turned in her words, trophy wife, and she had loved 285 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: books and reading and wanted to really shape and nurture 286 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 1: her writing career, and her husband was like, no, no, 287 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: you're not um and anyway, so he leaves his trophy 288 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: wife and children and five children for a super young 289 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: British actress whom he has since divorced and remarried. Um. 290 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 1: But fortunately Justine Musk claims that she and the new 291 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: wife actually get along. Yeah, I mean, and that adds 292 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,920 Speaker 1: a little bit of nuance reality nuance to this whole 293 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 1: kind of trophy narrative as well, because oh, we don't 294 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: have to start yet another stereotypical narrative about two women 295 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: quote unquote catfighting over the quote unquote possession of a 296 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: quote unquote man. Okay, no quote unquote around the man. 297 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: But the thing is too them getting along might not 298 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: matter so much because this jumped out to me. Divorce 299 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: rates for second marriages are higher than for first marriages, 300 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: and the biggest reason why kids not getting along with 301 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: their parents new love interest. Blame it on those kiddos. Yeah, 302 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: anybody who has seen down Nabby knows that even when 303 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: the children are adults, that can really interfere with a 304 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: new love match. I won't say anymore. I don't know 305 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: what that means. I can only make Madmin references right now, 306 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: I think, and I can't make Madmin references. So it 307 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 1: works out perfectly. But one thing that's not really part 308 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: of the popular stereotypes about divorces is the fact that 309 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,400 Speaker 1: women tend to be the ones who file for divorce 310 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: or separation first. And we're going to talk about that 311 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: more in detail in just a second. So in the 312 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: first half of the podcast, we're talking a lot about 313 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: this usually wealthier divorce stereotype and how she has been 314 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: largely stigmatized in a lot of ways, and at least 315 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: starting in the nineteen sixties, when divorce was really on 316 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 1: the rise, was presented with just the option of remarriage. 317 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: So we were trying to add some nuance to that 318 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: and ground it more in reality. And the next reality 319 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: we want to talk about is how women statistically are 320 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: likelier to file for divorce compared to husbands. And this 321 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: is a little bit of a dated study, but nonetheless 322 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: as a fabulous title coming from two thousand Margaret f. 323 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: Brnnig's and Douglas w Allen's these boots are made for walking? 324 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: Why most divorce filers are women? Yeah, so we have 325 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 1: this assumption that because of post divorce financial and social hardship, 326 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: men end up being the ones to instigate the divorce 327 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: in most cases. After all, women's standard of living usually declines, 328 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,719 Speaker 1: and as she ages, especially if she has kids, her 329 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: quote unquote market value as a marriage prospect decreases, while 330 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: the husband's market value increases. But the reality is a 331 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: little different. The proportion of wife file cases hovers around 332 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: two thirds, and a large portion of those women say 333 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: that they're happier post divorce because of this sense of 334 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 1: relief if they're getting out of a bad situation. Uh. 335 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: And women are also more likely to instigate a separation, 336 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: not just a divorce, And looking at why this is 337 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: there are a couple different reasons in this study. It 338 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: partly has to do with assuring their innocence in any 339 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: divorce proceedings to possibly secure custody or support rights. Maybe 340 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: it's more convenient for them to file, but they also 341 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: might be escaping a cruel or exploitative situation. And also 342 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: though Brinnigan Allen right that filing behavior is driven by 343 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: self interest at the time of divorce, such as when 344 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 1: there are marital assets that can be appropriated, and also 345 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: again when they're being exploited within the marriage, like when 346 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: the other person violates the marriage contract somehow, such as 347 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: running around or being a super controlling just being a 348 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: really really wellsy spouse in one way or another. And then, 349 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: of course, when it comes to custody, who gets the 350 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: kids is by far the most important component in deciding 351 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 1: who files, and usually because women are the primary caregivers, 352 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: they're going to be the ones to step in first 353 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: and probably get primary custody for those kids. But Brinnigan 354 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: Alan also predict that as men and women's labor force 355 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: income becomes more nearly equal, they rte In other words, 356 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: as things like the gender wage gap clothes and women 357 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: continue entering the workforce, the difference in filing rates should disappear, 358 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:45,479 Speaker 1: so equal opportunity divorce filings for all. Yeah, and so 359 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: it seems like this whole women filing first thing is 360 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: less about gold digging, our stereotype about gold digging and 361 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: just wanting to get the money, and really more about 362 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: for a lot of women being able to carve out 363 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: a secure place after leaving a bad situation, aation, trying 364 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: to leave possibly a bad marriage, make sure that they 365 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: have custody of the kids, less about trying to completely 366 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 1: deplete their ex husband's bank account. But the thing is, 367 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: there's also this this blame on women a lot of 368 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: times for heterosexual marriages falling apart, whether they're the ones 369 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: who filed or not, and sometimes whether the spouse was 370 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: violating that marital contract or not. And this was something 371 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: that Lynn Stewart Paramore at Alternate was railing against in 372 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 1: response to this blog post she had read. I think 373 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: it was featured on the Huffington's Post homepage about five 374 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: ways that women were failing their marriages and basically saying, 375 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: you know what, women, you are in charge of creating 376 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: an emotionally safe environment, making sure that sex is happening 377 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: on the rags. And if you're not doing these kinds 378 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: of things and really maintaining the emotional health of your marriage, 379 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: well it's on you. Because the guy's job is to 380 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: make the money. They're pragmatic their logic, they're thinking about 381 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: numbers and baseball. They're not thinking about, you know, emotional nurturance, 382 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: which is really just an insult to everybody across the board, 383 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 1: and of course plays into very antiquated gender stereotypes. Yeah, 384 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: and and Paramore says that these all of these stereotypes 385 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: about our behavior obscure the driving forces that can split 386 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: a marriage. And she says that all of this finger 387 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: wagging at women usually comes along with the off sided 388 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: statistic that we also cited that women file for divorce 389 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: twice as often as men. And what we hear less 390 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 1: often Paramore rights is straight talk about the social and 391 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: economic factors that drive the engine of divorce. The fact 392 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: is that college educated people are more likely to stay together, 393 00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: and that there's a higher risk of divorce for people 394 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: with lower incomes and less education. And she goes on 395 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 1: to say that when people are struggling to pay the 396 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: rent and keep a roof over their heads. The marriage 397 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: problem isn't likely to be some kind of deficiency in 398 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 1: managing intimacy. The sole thing, the glue that holds the 399 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: marriage or any type of relationship together, is not purely 400 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,360 Speaker 1: just intimacy or how often you're getting laid. All those 401 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: sex is a huge reason for a lot of divorces 402 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,959 Speaker 1: to happen. There's so much more to it. And the 403 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: fact that the more money you have and the older 404 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: you are, the less likely you are to get divorced. 405 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: That just means that there are other things that we 406 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: need to dig into here about the reasons behind marriage 407 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: is breaking up? Yeah, Because she goes on to site 408 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: this u c L a study about how low income 409 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:48,239 Speaker 1: versus high income study respondents held similar romantic standards and 410 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: had similar kinds of problems in relationships, and that is 411 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: no big surprise. But the low income respondents were likelier 412 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: to report that their relationships were being affected by economic 413 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: and social issues like financial struggles, alcohol and drug abuse, etcetera. 414 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: So when you have more resources, it can make it 415 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: easier to cope with those relationship stressors that usually put 416 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: a strain on any kind of marriage. Because and I 417 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: can attest to this if you're worried about money, you 418 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: add something else to that and it just everything is 419 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: just even more intensified. And that's just finance. Yeah yeah, 420 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 1: I mean, especially if somebody or both people are working 421 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 1: multiple jobs, maybe somebody doesn't have health benefits. I mean, 422 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: there's so many things that are rooted in money that 423 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: can put so much strain on a relationship. Well, and 424 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: that would probably go into the age factor as well 425 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: in terms of people who marry younger are likelier to 426 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: get divorced, because I think that also speaks to probably 427 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: your earning potential at the time when you get married, 428 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 1: but also the kinds of tools that you might be 429 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: bringing in terms of life experience into conflict resolution. Thinking 430 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: about myself all getting married when I was twenty two, No, 431 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: I would be divorced. I would absolutely be divorced. Oh yeah, 432 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: it is horrifying to think about. I. So I started 433 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: going to therapy almost a year ago and it has 434 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: changed my life. Would I say that everybody should go 435 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: to therapy, Yes I would, But it has been so helpful. 436 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: This process of digging through like all the jumble that 437 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: is my brain and my pile of emotions has been 438 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: so helpful. Not only for making me a more functional human, 439 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: but also more functional human in my relationships and so imagining. 440 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: Like my boyfriend and I talked all the time about 441 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 1: our faulty tool sets that we were provided with when 442 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: we were younger, and so not having been able to 443 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: add to that toolset getting married at a super young age. 444 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: Not that I'm saying that there aren't totally mature like 445 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: with it having it all together younger people, but I 446 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: would also be in that probably divorced category. Okay, but 447 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 1: let's say that we had gotten married in our early 448 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 1: twenties and thanks to our faulty tool said's respectively, our 449 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 1: marriages dissolved. Now let's talk about remarriage, because as common 450 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 1: as divorces and also as probably painful as it can be, 451 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: remarriage is still highly common. And this was reported on 452 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 1: in November in Time magazine, and I believe that they 453 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 1: were reporting on statistics out of the Pew Research Center, 454 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,360 Speaker 1: which we cite so often on the podcast, and they 455 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: were writing about how round about there of all the 456 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: new marriages in we're not first marriages, in half of 457 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: those cases both spouses had been married before, so a 458 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: big bulk of our marriage statistics are people saying, you 459 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: know what, I'll give it another go. Why not. There 460 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: is a huge drive for a lot of people to remarry, 461 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: whether it is that Harper's bizarre life convenience, companionship thing, 462 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,239 Speaker 1: or you know, a multitude of other things because you 463 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: can fall in love again, Caroline, it's true. Oh my gosh. 464 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: Well yeah, and Pew talked about these reasons possibly people 465 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: wanting more life satisfaction, because only half of divorced or 466 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: separated people said they were happy with their family lives 467 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: compared with married folks of whom were satisfied. So maybe 468 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: there's just this drive to have a richer family life. 469 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: But there's also the issue of commitment and stability. Uh. 470 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: Pew writes about how divorced or separated people put more 471 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: emphasis on making a lifelong commitment and financial stability than 472 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: do singles or cohabitating partners, and they are more likely 473 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: to say that these are reasons to get married. And men, 474 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: as echoed in our podcast on Widowhood, men are more 475 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: interested than women in remarriage. Men are more likely than 476 00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: women to view companionship as important to marriage, as compared 477 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: with just thirty percent whose second marriage is quote unquote 478 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: for love and to say that financial stability is a 479 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: very important reason to get married, and when it comes 480 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: to men's reasons for remarriage are also likelier than women 481 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: to just like companionship and financial stability is too big motivators. Yeah, 482 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,239 Speaker 1: as opposed to the thirty percent whose second marriage was 483 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: for love, That can't be right. Come on, it seems 484 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: like if you were going to go through that a 485 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: second time, that wouldn't you be more motivated to do it? Well? No, 486 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: I was about to say, wouldn't be more motivated to 487 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: do it for love? But no, By that point you 488 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: probably realize that love can dissolve and you might be 489 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: a little more pragmatic. Yeah. Well, I mean we've talked 490 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: about this. We've done a previous episode looking at issues 491 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: of divorce and widowhood, and men have typically typically are 492 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: more driven to form those person to person bonds with 493 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: a partner than women are. Women are like, I've got 494 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: my girlfriends, I'm cool, I'm fine, I'm happy, I'm I've 495 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: got healthy relationships all around me, whereas men are like, 496 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: I need a cruise to director. Well, that's why I'm 497 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: really curious to see in emerging literature in the coming years, 498 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: similar kinds of data on gay couples, specifically looking at 499 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: gay men. I wonder if the motivations would shift at 500 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: all when you have two guys or two women, and 501 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: how those kinds of gender stereotypical marital roles than maybe 502 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: mix and match when it's it's two fellows or two ladies. Yeah, well, 503 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: something that I thought about reading about this whole Like 504 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: men are motivated by financial security and and remarrying. You know, 505 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: earlier we talked about how women are way more likely 506 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: to have their finances and their earning potential dinged post 507 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: divorced than men are. Men just like I've just continued 508 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: on this trajectory of my career and my earning potential 509 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: this whole time, whereas a lot of women step off 510 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 1: the track, you know, lean in all that kind stuff. 511 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: They've stepped off the track to either be at home 512 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: or be with the kids or whatever. And there have 513 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: been study findings talking about how like attracts like, especially 514 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: when it comes to important things like money, beyond just 515 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: personality and interests and those kinds of things. And so 516 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: it almost seems like with finances being so important to men, 517 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: they might be seeking out someone who has equal earning 518 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: potential to themselves, like potentially a trophy wife. But for 519 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: a woman who has already been financially danged after a divorce, 520 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: she might not be able to sort of find a 521 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: new mate who's earning potential is as great as her 522 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: ex husband's. And so that would be something I'd like 523 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: to learn more about. But that's just kind of a 524 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: question that popped into my head as I was reading 525 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: well and talking about the earning potential to and how 526 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: divorce can impact women's incomes, especially as they get older. 527 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: Sort of the sadder reality, the bleaker reality, I should say, 528 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: of divorce for women is that, according to the Social 529 00:32:55,560 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: Security Administration, of divorced women, over sixty five of impoverty 530 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: compared with eighteen percent of never married women and fifteen 531 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: percent of widowed women. So two percent is not huge 532 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: and even five percent is not doesn't sound like a 533 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: huge percentage, is not this gaping gap, but still, when 534 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: we're talking about across the country, that adds up to 535 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: a number of people. Yeah, and the Social Security Administration 536 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: was spelling out like, hey, well, at least widows have 537 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: some sort of pension or um or women who have 538 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,479 Speaker 1: been in the workforce have accrued social security benefits, So like, 539 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: there are different types of women in different types of 540 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: life situations who are still having money come in, but 541 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: those women who completely stepped off the career track haven't 542 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: been accruing any social security benefits, which form a nice 543 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: net for a lot of people. Yeah, But when it 544 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: comes to the good, and there is a lot of good, 545 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: especially because I would argue that that this the divorce 546 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: stigma is probably lower than it's ever been. We accept 547 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: that it is in a lot of ways a fact 548 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: of life. It's kind of a roll of the dice 549 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 1: at this point. And there was a column at More 550 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: magazine from divorce coach Jill Brook, who I mean by 551 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: virtue of her being a divorce coach, she's pretty pro divorce, 552 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,839 Speaker 1: but I mean she's she's really optimistic about it, saying 553 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: that most over forty women realize, you know what, I 554 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: might not get married again, but I really don't care. 555 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,399 Speaker 1: And she says that research finds that overall, women are 556 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: happier post divorce. Yeah. She says that they're finally able 557 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: to focus on themselves, particularly obviously if the kids have 558 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 1: left home and they have the resources to do so, 559 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: which is also key. Um. You know, they're not responsible 560 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: for anyone else's housework in shore as they're no longer 561 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: picking up a husband or a boyfriend's underwear off of 562 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,399 Speaker 1: the floor. And she talks about Dr. Barbara Bartlett, who's 563 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: a sex therapist and psychiatrist at New York Presbyterian Hospital 564 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: and says that Bartlett's these a growing trend of financially 565 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 1: secure women preferring to stay single and date. They enjoy 566 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,240 Speaker 1: having their own schedules without having to report to anyone. 567 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: And plus you get the whole cougar factor that that's 568 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,959 Speaker 1: also becoming less and less stigmatized for an older woman 569 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,760 Speaker 1: and a younger man to get together. So there are options, 570 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: There are options and more more stereotypes in which you 571 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:25,879 Speaker 1: can you can be an animal when you grow up 572 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 1: like a cougar um. And I will say, though anecdotally, 573 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: I am want. One divorce story that that makes my 574 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: heart sing is a friend of mine's mom who got 575 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: divorced when she was probably in her mid forties, and 576 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,320 Speaker 1: it was a kind of nasty divorce. It was pretty 577 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 1: heart wrenching. There were kids, you know, they had had 578 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:54,360 Speaker 1: a lot that she had been with her husband for 579 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: a very long time, but she met this guy and 580 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: they are in love, and she seems younger than ever 581 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: ever before, and it really is like a second life 582 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: for her. And it's just been really amazing to see 583 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: her coming to life, especially being in what was in 584 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 1: a lot of ways a very unhappy marriage, and it's 585 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 1: like it couldn't have come soon enough. And her boyfriend 586 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: also is divorced as well, and he has his kids too, 587 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: and it's like for both of them, they're like, oh 588 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 1: my god, you're amazing humans. So yeah, I mean I 589 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: think that they're I'm I'm hardened to see that because 590 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: we have longer lifespans than ever before, you know, like 591 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: that that's also a reason why divorce happens. It's because, 592 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 1: like humans really weren't built to like hang out with 593 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: one human like fifty years. And one example of how 594 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: we are ritualizing this kind of romantic transition, I don't 595 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 1: even want to call it a loss, this romantic transition 596 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:02,879 Speaker 1: is through the more recent end of divorce parties. How 597 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: interesting this sounds like another thing that you sort of 598 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 1: have to have those resources for. Well, yeah, you have 599 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: to be able to, you know, buy a cake perhaps 600 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: if you want there are bakers who will sell you 601 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: a divorce cake, and a lot of times they'll have 602 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 1: a similar kind of wedding cake topper on it with 603 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,720 Speaker 1: the bride and the groom, but usually it's something really funny, 604 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: like the bread dragging the groom out to a trash 605 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: bin and just to drive home, Caroline, how how significant 606 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: of a trend this has become. There's a BBC News 607 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 1: headline from late the red hot business of divorce celebration. Interesting, 608 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 1: so not not really too far I mean, it's on 609 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: the other end of the spectrum, but not too far 610 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,400 Speaker 1: removed from the gender revealed parties that we've talked about before. 611 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 1: People wanting an excuse to to throw a party and 612 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: eat some cake, maybe be go to Vegas and live 613 00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 1: it up. Yeah. I also thought it was interesting that 614 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 1: there's even a Wikipedia entry for divorce parties. And in 615 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: that BBC News article they profile this woman who has 616 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 1: now become a divorce party planner, who went to Vegas 617 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 1: with her girlfriends post divorce to kind of, you know, 618 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: kickstart the whole post divorce process. They went to a 619 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 1: shooting range, she brought her bridal gown and she shot 620 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: it up with a machine gun and she had so 621 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 1: much fun doing it she turned it into a business. 622 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:36,479 Speaker 1: And common kinds of things include skydiving parties where you're 623 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: jumping into being single again. And there's even in the 624 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: Netherlands a divorce hotel where couples can go together to 625 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: like take care of the whole thing. You can file 626 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,879 Speaker 1: your papers, you know, get divorced, maybe have a little 627 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: like post divorce pampering, and you're just like, all right, cool, yeah, 628 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 1: see you later. Divorce interesting, but that is so far 629 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 1: removed from the average woman's divorce experience. Well yeah, I 630 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,880 Speaker 1: mean the thing if you have the money at hand, 631 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,279 Speaker 1: after paying a divorce lawyer and like going through all 632 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 1: of that and you know, renegotiating all of your finances, 633 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 1: is now a single person and you can then go 634 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 1: to Vegas with your girlfriends. It does seem like a 635 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 1: bit of a Real Housewives e kind of pursuit. Yeah yeah, 636 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,400 Speaker 1: and and just like the Real Housewives, it's sort of 637 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: tacky but also sort of just living your life by 638 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: your own rules exactly. I mean, in the BBC did 639 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,759 Speaker 1: talk to a psychologist who said, yeah, this is you know, 640 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: this could be seen as a healthy way to you 641 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: create this new kind of ritual. I mean we we 642 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: it happens so commonly, I mean it happens half as 643 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 1: often as marriage does. So why not eat some cake? Why? Well, 644 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 1: that's my attitude about everything. Why not? Yeah, it's true. Um, 645 00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 1: So I am curious to know if any podcast list 646 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,280 Speaker 1: or have either thrown or attended a divorce party. Yeah, 647 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:09,360 Speaker 1: I'm just curious about knowing, Like what's what's your divorce reality? 648 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 1: Or is your life more like the nineteen sixty two 649 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,479 Speaker 1: Harper's Bizarre article where your fellow women and mary people 650 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: see you as sort of a suspicious threat or somebody 651 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,560 Speaker 1: to be pitied or are you just out there living 652 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,799 Speaker 1: your life excited to sort of be free of your 653 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 1: you know, marital bonds. Yeah, what is the status of 654 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 1: the divorce stigma? Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot 655 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: com is our email address. You can also tweet us 656 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've 657 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: got a couple of messages to share with you right now. Well, so, 658 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 1: Christian and I have gotten an overwhelmingly awesome response to 659 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 1: our O c D episode. A lot of you guys, 660 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 1: whether you have O c D or just no with 661 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,280 Speaker 1: with O c D, wrote in thanking us for talking 662 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: about the topic. And we have two letters here are 663 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: from women who are dealing with this thing called pure OH, 664 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 1: and so we're going to read them now. This one's 665 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,759 Speaker 1: from Whitney. She says, First of all, I live in 666 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:11,840 Speaker 1: an area where it's not a good thing to be 667 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,360 Speaker 1: liberal or a feminist, So you guys have been like 668 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 1: my feminist besties over the past year. Thanks Whitney. She 669 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:20,359 Speaker 1: goes on to say, thank you so much for your 670 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,359 Speaker 1: wonderful episode on O c D. I was diagnosed at 671 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 1: the age of fifteen. I suffer from a form of 672 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 1: O c D known as pure OH. I have intrusive 673 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,840 Speaker 1: thoughts of harming myself or loved ones, even though I 674 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 1: am neither violent nor suicidal, and I've never really had 675 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 1: compulsions if you want further inside. This is also discussed 676 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,759 Speaker 1: in the first episode of another fantastic podcast called Invisibilia. 677 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,720 Speaker 1: I am very fortunate to have almost no symptoms eleven 678 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:50,279 Speaker 1: years later, thanks to antidepressants and cognitive behavioral therapy. Thank you, 679 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,239 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you for calling out shows like Monk 680 00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 1: for misrepresenting O c D. It is not a cute, 681 00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 1: fun or beneficial illness. Ever since I was a teenager, 682 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,960 Speaker 1: I loathed shows like Monk and What About Bob because 683 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 1: they aren't helpful to o c D suffers and those 684 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:09,440 Speaker 1: with other mental illnesses. Either our experiences are invalidated because 685 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 1: the o c D is seen as something minor, or 686 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,759 Speaker 1: we're seen as weird and our opinions don't matter. Every 687 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: time I try to express opinions about those types of 688 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 1: jokes in the media, I've gotten brushed off by both 689 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 1: friends and family for overreacting because it's just a show. 690 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:25,760 Speaker 1: It may just be a TV show, but the things 691 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 1: we watch both reflect and influence our attitudes. So thanks Whitney, 692 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 1: and I've got one here from Rebecca, also about pure Oh, 693 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,000 Speaker 1: she writes, I have a version of o c D 694 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,160 Speaker 1: called pure OH since childhood and was finally diagnosed as 695 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: past fall. Puro is basically o c D without the 696 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,680 Speaker 1: outward physical compulsions. I spend hours and hours obsessing about 697 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 1: all kinds of things, from the food that I eat 698 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 1: to how my lesson plans are written out. I've had 699 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:54,879 Speaker 1: obsessions since I was a little girl. We once at 700 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,239 Speaker 1: our house bombed for fleas, and without telling anyone, I 701 00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,000 Speaker 1: slowly but surely threw away or refuse to touch any 702 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,200 Speaker 1: of my belongings that I imagined may have been exposed 703 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:07,319 Speaker 1: to the mysteriously killing chemicals. I spent seven years in 704 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:09,319 Speaker 1: therapy with someone who didn't believe in O c D 705 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,960 Speaker 1: without compulsions, and it was an unbelievable relief to finally 706 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 1: find someone who understood what was happening in my brain. 707 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,759 Speaker 1: I also have other anxiety issues in clinical depression, but 708 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: I'm very high functioning, and I'm trying to spread the 709 00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,759 Speaker 1: words so that others who have these disorders can get 710 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,719 Speaker 1: the help and compassion that they deserve. I'm hoping that 711 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:28,600 Speaker 1: you can help spread the word the pure o o 712 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,239 Speaker 1: c D is a real diagnosis. Just because someone isn't 713 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,840 Speaker 1: lining up their pencils and checking the oven over and 714 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 1: over doesn't mean they aren't struggling. Thanks as always for 715 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,359 Speaker 1: helping to keep us all educated about current issues, and 716 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,719 Speaker 1: thank you Rebecca, and thanks to everybody who's written into us. 717 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,040 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our 718 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,760 Speaker 1: email address and thrillings to all of our social media 719 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: as well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts, 720 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,439 Speaker 1: including this one with our sources. So you can read 721 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,959 Speaker 1: more about divorced women head on over to stuff mom 722 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:07,239 Speaker 1: Never told You dot com for more on this and 723 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Doesn't how stuff works dot com