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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast, your guide to

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Speaker 1: the whitetail Woods presented by First Light, creating proven versatile

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Speaker 1: hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light

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Speaker 1: Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. This week on

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Speaker 2: the show, I am joined by Andrew McKean for important

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Speaker 2: conversation about the future of our hunting community and culture.

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Speaker 2: All Right, welcome back to another episode of the Wired

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Speaker 2: to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light and

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Speaker 2: their Camel for Conservation Initiative, which is a program that

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Speaker 2: sends a portion of every sale of First Light Specter

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Speaker 2: Camo to the National Deer Association should help them with

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Speaker 2: their mission to do good things for the future of deer,

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Speaker 2: deer hunting and deer hunters. And today we are having

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Speaker 2: a discussion that is very relevant to the future of

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Speaker 2: deer and deer hunters and the deer hunting community, which

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Speaker 2: is a part of this ongoing series this month revolving

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Speaker 2: around the culture of hunting. And we kicked this off

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Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago with Dan and Tony and

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Speaker 2: a whole bunch of riffing and wondering and spitballing about

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Speaker 2: a series of different topics that all kind of fit

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Speaker 2: into this idea of our culture, everything from the technology

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Speaker 2: we use and the and the ways that we hunt,

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Speaker 2: and the ways we talk about hunting and the ways

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Speaker 2: we showcase it, the many different disagreements we can sometimes

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Speaker 2: have within our different kind of microcultures of the world

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Speaker 2: of hunting. There's there's there's a whole lot to it.

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Speaker 2: And I think that that first episode with Tony and

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Speaker 2: Dan and myself was kind of just a kicking off point,

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Speaker 2: a whole bunch of different questions and concerns and thoughts.

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Speaker 2: But today I wanted to take it to that next

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Speaker 2: level with somebody who I think can bring to bear

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Speaker 2: a level of experience and leadership within the community of

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Speaker 2: hunters that can can point to us maybe in a

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Speaker 2: better direction. And that's why I wanted to bring Andrew

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Speaker 2: McKean onto the show today. Andrew is, without a doubt,

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Speaker 2: one of the leaders of our hunting community. He has

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Speaker 2: worked at Outdoor Life for many many years now, once

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Speaker 2: as their editor in chief, now is their Hunting and

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Speaker 2: Conservation editor. He has been one of our foremost thinkers

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Speaker 2: and speakers about everything from actual hunting practices to the

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Speaker 2: intersection of hunting and gear, to public lands advocacy, wildlife

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Speaker 2: management policy, and a whole lot more in addition to that.

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Speaker 2: And he simply is one of the wisest folks within

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Speaker 2: this world that I know of and who I frequently

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Speaker 2: turned to and look to his thoughts and guidance on

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Speaker 2: many of these things. And so that makes him, in

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Speaker 2: my opinion, the perfect person here today to help us

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Speaker 2: take this discussion to the next level. And that's exactly

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Speaker 2: what we did. Andrew had a lot to contribute to

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Speaker 2: this series of ideas in this conversation that we're having

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Speaker 2: over the course of the month, and I couldn't be

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Speaker 2: more excited to share that conversation with you. I really

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Speaker 2: got a lot from this one. I think you will too. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we're not talking about how to kill more deer, how

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Speaker 2: to kill bigger deer to have more success this coming season,

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Speaker 2: which I know we'd like to have those types of

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Speaker 2: conversations as often as possible. Right, that's the kind of

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Speaker 2: thing that gets excited, you know, to get out there

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Speaker 2: and to listen to these podcasts. But this month where

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Speaker 2: we're talking about the culture of hunting, This is really

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Speaker 2: important stuff. This is the glue that binds it all together.

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Speaker 2: This is the foundation that all of our opportunities rest on.

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Speaker 2: If we don't have a strong hunting culture, if that's

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Speaker 2: not right, then nothing else is going to operate SMOOTHI either.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of like and I'm just this has just

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Speaker 2: coming to me as I'm thinking here. But you know,

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Speaker 2: if your marriage isn't right, if there's something not right

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Speaker 2: in your relationship with your significant other, it takes away

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Speaker 2: all the good stuff across the rest of your life. Right,

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Speaker 2: how many of you can relate to this. You got

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Speaker 2: in a hunting trip, but you just came off of

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Speaker 2: a fight with your wife or or whatever it is,

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Speaker 2: and then the whole time you're out there on your

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Speaker 2: hunting trip, you can't actually enjoy it because you're worrying

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Speaker 2: about this other stuff going on. You're thinking, you're stewing,

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Speaker 2: You're concerned about this other thing. Right. If you can't

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Speaker 2: get that stuff right, then the rest is lacking a

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Speaker 2: certain something, And that I think is very much the

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Speaker 2: case within the world of hunting. If there are if

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Speaker 2: there's miscontent, if there's malecontent, if there's concern, if there's

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Speaker 2: this kind of toxic thing floating around the culture of

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Speaker 2: our hunting community. It's going to take away from our

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Speaker 2: own enjoyment of hunting and our ability to hunt in

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Speaker 2: the future, and our ability for this thing to be

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Speaker 2: as good and fulfilling as it possibly can be, and

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Speaker 2: possibly for us to even be able to partake in

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Speaker 2: this thing in the future. So that's why these conversations

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Speaker 2: I think are important not just to have on this podcast,

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Speaker 2: but for us all to continue out beyond them. These

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Speaker 2: types of conversations are useful and good for us to have,

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Speaker 2: not just between me and someone on the show, but

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Speaker 2: between you and your buddy, or you and your dad,

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Speaker 2: or you and your brother, or you and your wife,

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Speaker 2: whatever it is. These types of chats are really really

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Speaker 2: healthy for us to engage in, and I'm hoping that

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Speaker 2: this series here this month will help kickstart more of

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Speaker 2: that at the diner, at the bar, at the deer camp,

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Speaker 2: wherever it is. I hope you will continue this conversation yourself,

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Speaker 2: think about these issues yourself, and that's the kind of

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Speaker 2: thing that I think will lead to a more positive

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Speaker 2: future for all of us moving forward. So that's my

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Speaker 2: pitch for you today. I don't know if I'm going

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Speaker 2: to get any takers, but I'm hoping so. And before

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Speaker 2: we get to my chat with Andrew, I do want

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Speaker 2: to give you a quick heads up on something related

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Speaker 2: to someone I mentioned at the very beginning, which is

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Speaker 2: the National Deer Association. They've got a big old sweepstakes

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Speaker 2: going on right now, which I just want to give

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Speaker 2: a friendly plug, which is there United for Deer Sweepstakes.

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Speaker 2: They've got a whole bunch of different big gear packages

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Speaker 2: they're giving away, and you can enter to win stuff

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Speaker 2: like a ten thousand dollars gift card from Academy Sports,

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Speaker 2: a UTV package from Tracker, an Elk hunting package, a

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Speaker 2: deer hunting package, both of which include big old first

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Speaker 2: light gift cards, all sorts of prizes from folks like

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Speaker 2: Vortex ELPs, Leopold, bog weatherb Vortex pH Outdoors. The list

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Speaker 2: goes on and on and on. You can enter at

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Speaker 2: different price points and man it all those dollars go

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Speaker 2: to support the National Deer Association and they're very, very

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Speaker 2: good work. Full disclosure. I am on the board of directors,

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Speaker 2: so I am biased, but I have been a member

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Speaker 2: for fifteen plus years, maybe almost twenty years now, and

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Speaker 2: they're one of those organizations that I believe in more

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Speaker 2: than almost any other. You know that if you've been

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Speaker 2: listening for the years, I've talked to folks and we've

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Speaker 2: brought folks on from the NBA year after year after

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Speaker 2: year because they are tremendous recent source and tremendous advocates

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Speaker 2: for deer and deer hunters. So here's an opportunity to

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Speaker 2: support them, to give back and make sure these folks

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Speaker 2: can continue doing that good work. So heading over to

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Speaker 2: Dear Association dot com if you're interested in doing that,

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Speaker 2: whether it's participating in the sweepstakes or just giving them

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Speaker 2: the donation becoming a member, it is all worthwhile and

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Speaker 2: I would encourage you to do so if you're interested.

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Speaker 2: So with all that said, let's get to the main

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Speaker 2: meat and potatoes of our podcast today, my conversation with

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Speaker 2: Andrew McKeen. All right here with me back on the

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Speaker 2: show after a long absence. Is Andrew McKean. Andrew, great

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Speaker 2: to see you.

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Speaker 3: Oh, that's great to see you. It's been way way,

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Speaker 3: way too long, and we've resolved that we're like equal opportunity. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: we're both to blame.

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Speaker 2: Well that Well, it's so funny because you are someone

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Speaker 2: who I don't think I've ever told you this, but

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Speaker 2: I feel like you are such a kindred spirit in

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Speaker 2: that whenever I hear you talking on another podcast or

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Speaker 2: whenever I read of one of your articles, I just

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Speaker 2: find myself like nodding along, just saying that yes, yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: like all the time. There are plenty of people that

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Speaker 2: I see on social media or read their stuff or

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Speaker 2: see their stuff, and in my head, I'm just thinking no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: but you you are are yes, yes, yes. I find

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Speaker 2: so much. I've learned so much from you over the years, Andrew,

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Speaker 2: and I have found guidance from you, not just in

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Speaker 2: like how to hunt, but how to conduct ourselves as hunters,

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Speaker 2: how to advocate as a hunter and a conservationist. So

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Speaker 2: I just want to open this by thanking you for

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Speaker 2: the leadership and example you have shown all of this

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Speaker 2: over your years doing this work. So thank you for that,

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Speaker 2: and thanks for being here and being a part of this.

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Speaker 3: Man. Well, I didn't expect that. It almost feels like,

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Speaker 3: you know, when's the memorial service, But I'll take it.

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Speaker 3: It's funny, like I actually deeply appreciate that for a

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Speaker 3: maybe unexpected reason, and that is I was talking to

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Speaker 3: a friend the other day who was the subject of

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Speaker 3: kind of accolades and like public recognition, and Hugh like,

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Speaker 3: I don't quite know how to take it. But our

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Speaker 3: conversation was like men in general don't know how to

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Speaker 3: take a compliment and will either like deflective way from

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Speaker 3: it or we'll like laugh about it. But that is

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Speaker 3: super meaningful and I am grateful to you for that.

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Speaker 2: So thanks, Well, you're welcome. It's well deserved, and you

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Speaker 2: are joining me here, I think in a really important

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Speaker 2: part of this series that we kicked off, and I

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Speaker 2: know you're aware of the series, the series on kind

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Speaker 2: of the the culture of hunting and the state of

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Speaker 2: that culture. And in our first first episode, as you know,

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Speaker 2: I was joined by my pals Tony and Dan, and

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Speaker 2: we just kind of rift on this topic and kind

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Speaker 2: of just I don't know if word vomit is the

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Speaker 2: way right way to describe it, but it kind of is.

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Speaker 2: We kind of just kind of purged all of our

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Speaker 2: thoughts and our questions and our concerns and our initial

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Speaker 2: gut reactions and stuff like that, and maybe that was

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Speaker 2: a good place to kind of set the stage as

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Speaker 2: like the everyman kind of thought, like, here's a bunch

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Speaker 2: of different thoughts, a bunch of things we're throwing at

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Speaker 2: the wall that we're thinking about, that we're worried about, that,

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Speaker 2: we're excited about that, we're concerned about. What is the

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Speaker 2: state of the hunting culture and what does that mean?

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Speaker 2: And how do we define it and how do we

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Speaker 2: what are these things are going to influence it moving forward?

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Speaker 2: And I came out of that conversation with with without

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Speaker 2: any clear answers, but with a lot of questions. And

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Speaker 2: what you I think bring to the table is a

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Speaker 2: level of experience. And I joked before we start recording

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Speaker 2: that you have this kind of elder statesman kind of

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Speaker 2: thing that you bring to the table. And I suppose

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Speaker 2: that's what I'm getting at here, is that I think

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Speaker 2: you might be able to help center us a little

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Speaker 2: bit in some of these questions that were brought up

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Speaker 2: last time around. So that's a very long winded way

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Speaker 2: of getting to what I'm trying to get to here

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Speaker 2: in Angel What I'm trying to get out, well, you

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Speaker 2: can you can you can respond if you want to

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Speaker 2: tell me to not call you elder again, if you

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Speaker 2: want to.

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Speaker 3: Know what I was going to say, and I hope

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Speaker 3: this that doesn't derail what you're about to say, is

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Speaker 3: that what I really liked about that initial conversation was

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Speaker 3: it felt to me a lot like ones that I've

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Speaker 3: had sitting on a tailgate, where you know, it's a

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Speaker 3: little bit of like blue sky or maybe starry sky

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Speaker 3: after a hunt. Maybe it just and it's not bellyaching

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Speaker 3: it by any means, but it's like, I think there

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Speaker 3: was a level of concern and a level of like worry,

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Speaker 3: but also kind of like collective recognition that these were

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Speaker 3: unresolvable questions that I think is a really important way

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Speaker 3: into it, because I hope you're not setting me up

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Speaker 3: for failure, like you know, I'm the guy who's got

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Speaker 3: the answers to all these unanswerable questions, because I think

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Speaker 3: that's actually the promise of what you're trying to do.

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Speaker 3: And the thing that I really appreciated about it is

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Speaker 3: a lot of these are unanswerable. They're super contextual or

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Speaker 3: super individual. But I applaud you for asking the question

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Speaker 3: as we were talking before we hit record, is like,

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Speaker 3: I think the actually the way you describe this as

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Speaker 3: a health check is really healthy because I think it

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Speaker 3: doesn't intend to be the the all knowing muse or

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Speaker 3: the oracle of these things. But I think it's really

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Speaker 3: important that we every now and then just stop and

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Speaker 3: like examine ourselves, like, yeah, it's a health check.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And the more I think about this set of topics,

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Speaker 2: the more I think that the most important thing is

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Speaker 2: not necessarily to come to an answer on any of

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Speaker 2: these things. It's simply that we need to be engaged

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Speaker 2: in the conversation. If we can constantly be engaging and

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Speaker 2: discussing and assessing the health of like these different aspects

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Speaker 2: of our culture, is this a good thing? Are we

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Speaker 2: on the right path? Are we sure this is what

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Speaker 2: we want to be? As long as we are constantly

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Speaker 2: as a community having those conversations, I think that's that's

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Speaker 2: a good end goal, versus just blindly charging down, you know,

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Speaker 2: into the future, without thinking about what and why we're

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Speaker 2: doing these things. So I think that's maybe why I'm

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Speaker 2: hoping all this matters for whatever it's worth. So so

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Speaker 2: with that, I'll said, Andrew, you mentioned the health check,

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Speaker 2: and I brought this up with Dan and Tony last time.

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Speaker 2: What would yours be if you were to if you

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Speaker 2: the doctor today, and if we had to just if

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Speaker 2: you had to arbitrarily put a an A to F grade.

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Speaker 2: So I guess, teacher, you're the teacher, the professor here,

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Speaker 2: and you're going to put a stamp of grade on

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Speaker 2: the health of our hunting culture. What would your gut

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Speaker 2: reaction be, What would be that instant analysis, quick grade

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Speaker 2: you would give us or not us? But well, I guess,

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Speaker 2: so what.

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Speaker 4: Would that be?

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Speaker 2: And then describe to me why why you feel that way?

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Speaker 3: You know, my my view of the world is often

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Speaker 3: in sort of shades of gray. I'm not very much

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Speaker 3: of a polar person, and so my initial reaction is

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Speaker 3: to answer that with a C. But I'm not going

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Speaker 3: to do that. It's actually a strong B. And I'll

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Speaker 3: justify that on a couple of reasons. One is I've

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Speaker 3: done so much gear testing over the years with a

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Speaker 3: whole like platoon of graders, and what I recognize in

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Speaker 3: that is that there's a human tendency to want to

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Speaker 3: like gravitate to the middle of everything, and when you

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Speaker 3: start to average middling grades, you get the most middlesome

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Speaker 3: grade of all. And so in some ways I'm hoping

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Speaker 3: like to pull the average maybe one way or the

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Speaker 3: other a little bit, because as you ask more people

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Speaker 3: of this and everybody sort of descends to the middle,

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Speaker 3: it's not that useful. So maybe I'm gaming the system

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Speaker 3: just a little bit too. But I'm actually pretty optimistic

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Speaker 3: about a few things. Yeah, we've got some things to

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Speaker 3: resolve within our community, and I think some things just

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Speaker 3: to be aware of and to recognize, But overall, I

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Speaker 3: still maintain that what we do and what we promise

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Speaker 3: as a community is the essence of America and is

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Speaker 3: the essence of I think a lot of hopeful parts

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Speaker 3: of our wider culture. And so I think unless this

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Speaker 3: isn't anything like I sort of like salute at sunrise

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Speaker 3: every morning, like, but I think it's really an important

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Speaker 3: thing to recall why we do this, how we do it,

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Speaker 3: and the implications of what we do. It's so easy

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Speaker 3: for us to be sort of self critical about the

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Speaker 3: problems within our culture, but I think that maybe diminishes

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Speaker 3: the wider value of what we do, whether it's the

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Speaker 3: larger conservation mission that we're on, whether it's like the

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Speaker 3: ecological benefits that are downstream of what we do. I

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Speaker 3: think those are all really part of our culture and

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Speaker 3: and it's an important part of defining and also defending

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Speaker 3: what we do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great point. Is there any specific example

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Speaker 2: of something right now within our culture that you know

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Speaker 2: would help illustrate part of this hope that you have.

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Speaker 2: Is there something that really stands out as a shining

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Speaker 2: star of like, man, this is something that is a

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Speaker 2: that is above a B plus it's an us within

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Speaker 2: our hunting culture and this is why we should feel

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Speaker 2: this way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and maybe this is a you know, this might

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Speaker 3: be an artifact of being a resident of a rural

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Speaker 3: western town where I think the I think the communal

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Speaker 3: membranes are a lot thinner than other places. But Hunter

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Speaker 3: Education season is about to start, and I'll tell you what,

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Speaker 3: there is nothing that's more restorative in your sense of

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Speaker 3: like why we do this and like our role as

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Speaker 3: gatekeeper of our communities, which I think we all do

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Speaker 3: to various degrees. I'd actually like to come back to

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Speaker 3: that with like various degrees of welcomingness. Sure, but to

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Speaker 3: go to a hunter education class and stand in front

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Speaker 3: of a bunch of eleven year olds or sit in

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Speaker 3: the back of the room and watch a bunch of

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Speaker 3: eleven year olds like squirmy, fidgetingly in their chairs, but

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Speaker 3: so excited about like the ticket to this, you know what,

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Speaker 3: demounts to a lifetime of opportunity that they're to get

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Speaker 3: into their terrified The only thing I can think about

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Speaker 3: is what's the minimum score I can get on the

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Speaker 3: test and still pass. I don't think we've in my class,

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Speaker 3: we've ever failed a kid ever, Like it just doesn't happen.

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Speaker 3: But they don't know that. Yeah, but that just like

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Speaker 3: that that palpable energy and expectation that we I think

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Speaker 3: as kind of calloused members of this community forget about.

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Speaker 3: That's a I mean that that that's a strong be

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Speaker 3: maybe even higher, Like that's a big reason to believe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's a great it's a great point.

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Speaker 4: One of the big.

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Speaker 2: Overarching kind of umbrellas or clouds that I think rests

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Speaker 2: over top of any conversation around the culture of hunting

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Speaker 2: is something that we spend a lot of time talking

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Speaker 2: about with Dan and Tony the other day, That being

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Speaker 2: this idea of balancing this sense of like, hey, we

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00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:06,000
Speaker 2: need to self. I don't know if police is the

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Speaker 2: right word, but we need to self kind of regulate

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Speaker 2: our community and our culture versus any kind of self

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Speaker 2: policing or regulating is tearing us apart, right When you

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Speaker 2: have a culture like ours, which is so diverse and

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Speaker 2: so passionate, and we all kind of come to hunting

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Speaker 2: from a different place, with different goals, from different regions,

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Speaker 2: different perspectives, etc. And then there's so many different aspects

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Speaker 2: of what might fall into the bucket considered culture. We've

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Speaker 2: got things like the technology and gear we use. We've

347
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Speaker 2: got things like the practices and the ways we hunt.

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Speaker 2: We've got things like how we talk about hunting, how

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Speaker 2: we share our hunts, how we develop content around it.

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Speaker 2: We've got things like what policies we support, the ideologies, etc.

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Speaker 2: There's all these different aspects of this soup that we

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Speaker 2: consider the culture of hunting. With all of that being

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Speaker 2: the case, it's it's very easy for any assessment or

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Speaker 2: exploration of the culture to become divisive. How do we

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Speaker 2: in any kind of way do that? How do we

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Speaker 2: in any kind of way affect the culture of hunting

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Speaker 2: in a positive way moving forward without it becoming a

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Speaker 2: you know, negative, tearing each other down kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: How do you balance that out well?

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Speaker 3: Way to start with the easy questions. You know, in

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Speaker 3: some ways, I think you're the thesis is kind of wrong.

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Speaker 3: I don't know that we and I don't know that

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Speaker 3: we have a culture, a single culture of hunting. And

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Speaker 3: I think that's actually one of the problems that we're

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Speaker 3: seeing is we've got one of my concerns with the

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Speaker 3: larger the way we communicate within the larger community. I

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Speaker 3: would call it, not just even the political community, the

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Speaker 3: I mean every community you name. It is that we

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Speaker 3: we talk to each other all the time, at the

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Speaker 3: at the at the risk and and and we don't

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Speaker 3: talk to people who either don't agree with us or

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Speaker 3: are not even in the room. And so the problem

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Speaker 3: with that, I one of the big problems I see

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Speaker 3: with the kind of Balkanization of hunting now is that

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Speaker 3: we are in smaller and smaller self described communities and

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Speaker 3: in each with its own culture too, right, and social

377
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Speaker 3: media does nothing but just amplify those silos. And so

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Speaker 3: I think, actually you mentioned public policy, which is maybe

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Speaker 3: the best, the best sort of arena or the best

380
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Speaker 3: venue to talk about a cultural expression of what we

381
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Speaker 3: do and air values, because that's something that transcends these

382
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Speaker 3: small little like colonies that we've developed. You know, are

383
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Speaker 3: you an upland bird hunter? Are you a side by

384
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Speaker 3: side pointing dog upland bird hunter? You know, like we

385
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Speaker 3: we have the and an amazing ability to like refine

386
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Speaker 3: ourselves into smaller and less relevant subsets all the time.

387
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Speaker 3: And so I do think that's a problem, that is

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Speaker 3: a problem. We've got to be able to talk across

389
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Speaker 3: these divisions, these sort of self imposed divisions, But I

390
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Speaker 3: don't see us doing it very easily or very often.

391
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Speaker 3: You know, I think it's one of the great values

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Speaker 3: of some of the groups like BHA, who are not

393
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Speaker 3: necessarily specific species specific, but even within BHA, you know,

394
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Speaker 3: there's almost there's some some purity tests of sort of

395
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Speaker 3: inclusion that they are the members throw up unbeknownst to

396
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Speaker 3: the to them to themselves. But we can recognize it

397
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Speaker 3: if we're on the outside of it. Oh it's a

398
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Speaker 3: cool kids club. We don't really belong with that. So

399
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 3: that in itself, that sort of health check, if you

400
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Speaker 3: want to use to continue to use that sort of

401
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 3: barometer aspect of things, I think is a really important one.

402
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Speaker 3: We got to we got to quit just judging ourselves

403
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Speaker 3: on the expectations of our little communities and judge judge

404
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 3: ourselves on these sort of ever bigger communities, which you know,

405
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 3: the political community is probably the best way to judge it,

406
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Speaker 3: because there's a score that's being kept every time there's

407
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 3: a vote. That's a really circular way of answering your question.

408
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Speaker 2: You make an interesting point, and I agree with you.

409
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Speaker 2: But what do you say to the person who challenges

410
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Speaker 2: any type of direct critique or not even critique. But

411
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Speaker 2: I guess this is what I'm getting at. If I

412
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Speaker 2: care about the culture of hunting, if I care about

413
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Speaker 2: the future of hunting, I might say, like, hey, if

414
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 2: I see someone poking holes in the boat, you should

415
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 2: say something. I should talk to this person, or we

416
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Speaker 2: should address an issue that I think is going to

417
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Speaker 2: negatively influen It's the future of hunting, right, So let's

418
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Speaker 2: just take an example. Let's say there's I don't know,

419
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Speaker 2: we'll use a micro example. If I see an individual

420
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Speaker 2: that I know in real life who is doing something

421
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,640
Speaker 2: and posting about on Facebook that I think really negative

422
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 2: shines negatively on hunting, I might think to myself, well,

423
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Speaker 2: I think that's bad for the future of hunting. I

424
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 2: think that's bad for everything that's going on right now.

425
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Speaker 2: So I would like to talk to this person and say, hey,

426
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Speaker 2: this thing you're doing and the way you're showing it

427
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 2: on there is maybe not such a good idea. So like,

428
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Speaker 2: that's an individual example of a way of trying to

429
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Speaker 2: address like something that I think might negatively influence the future. Now,

430
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 2: if you were to scale that out and say, like, oh,

431
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Speaker 2: I see this thing in the larger hunting culture, I'm

432
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Speaker 2: worried about how that might impact the future of hunting.

433
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 2: If I were to publicly say that, you would get

434
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,199
Speaker 2: lots of lots of folks saying, hey, you are not

435
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 2: allowed to challenge any that anyone does something or challenge

436
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 2: this kind of thing because you are tearing down other

437
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 2: hunters or you are in some kind of way dividing hunters,

438
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 2: creating divisions. We need to stand together, we need to

439
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 2: all band together because there's so many outside pressures coming

440
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: for hunters. And there's truth to that. I'm not saying

441
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 2: there isn't. So I guess what I'm getting is how

442
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 2: do we in any kind of way And maybe your

443
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 2: answer was this, just have the conversations, But but what

444
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 2: do you say to this basic premise which is like,

445
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 2: you can't critique, criticize, or at least raise questions about

446
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,959
Speaker 2: certain things within the hunting world because that's you know,

447
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 2: damaging us from the inside or creating false divisions when

448
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 2: sometimes there are things maybe we need to be talking

449
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,199
Speaker 2: about inside, Like yeah, I'm gonna stop rambling. I'll let

450
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 2: you address that.

451
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 3: Good now, I'm happy you sharpened that a little bit,

452
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,400
Speaker 3: because I think I think there are some huge problems

453
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 3: that we are not addressing because it's this sort of

454
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 3: u purity test is actually not a bad way to

455
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 3: look at it. There's a purity test of inclusion in

456
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 3: our community.

457
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 4: That is.

458
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 3: I'll use two like hyper relevant and frightening examples. One

459
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 3: is trapping. What I see in the trapping community, and

460
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 3: I am a not a life on trapper. I trapped

461
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 3: as a kid. I still trap here. I can take

462
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 3: or leave trapping kind of as I have time for it.

463
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 3: It's not the sort of thing like that this is

464
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 3: like central to my identity, but I definitely get it.

465
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 3: I do it. What I see with trapping is it

466
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 3: the conversation is being led by the most strident members

467
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 3: of the trapping community. I don't think that's the right

468
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 3: messager for the message, because what it does is that

469
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 3: we've already entered a world that is really problematic for

470
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 3: a lot of people when it comes to trapping, for

471
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 3: you name it, because of the consumption aspect of it,

472
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 3: because of the quazi commercial ass of it, because of

473
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 3: lots of reasons. I don't agree with the statement that

474
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 3: you've got to toe the line on raising the flag

475
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 3: for trapping because as trapping goes, soda goes everything else.

476
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 3: That may well be the case, but I think the

477
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 3: people who should carry that message are actually the people

478
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 3: who are less eager to talk about it because they

479
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 3: have a level of authenticity and sort of personal resonance

480
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,120
Speaker 3: about the issue that's not it's not political, and it's

481
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,959
Speaker 3: not they're not trying to change anybody's mind. The second

482
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 3: issue I think we need to talk all about a

483
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 3: lot more in our community as guns is the social

484
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 3: the powerful sort of toxic presence of guns in our

485
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 3: society at large, and how that affects hunting. Like right,

486
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 3: the party line is you can't say one negative thing

487
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 3: about guns because if you know, if the anti is

488
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 3: get one foothold into this.

489
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: Wall, yeah, you've got a whole want.

490
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 3: Right, exactly. And I am a great believer in guns

491
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 3: and gun rights and all that stuff, but I think

492
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 3: it's we we shouldn't not talk about it. I don't

493
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 3: right agree, Probably very very few opinions are going to

494
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 3: change within our world. But the very fact that we

495
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 3: are open to talking about it, I think shows to

496
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 3: people who are on the other side that this isn't

497
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 3: a monoculture. This isn't just a whole bunch of people

498
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 3: who have closed their ranks around something that they're afraid

499
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 3: to talk about. I think we should welcome that kind

500
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,959
Speaker 3: of and and part of that welcoming is we need

501
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 3: to welcome dissent. We don't have to agree with it.

502
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 3: We can call it out when we see it, but

503
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 3: we shouldn't censor it. And I think there's a lot

504
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 3: of self censorship within our community.

505
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, so, so okay, I really like where you're

506
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 2: going with Andrew. For anyone, I guess, what are your

507
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 2: thoughts or what have you learned over the years about

508
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 2: having productive conversations along these types of lines. How can

509
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 2: we as people within this community more productively discuss or

510
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 2: debate or consider the things that we do as hunters,

511
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 2: the ways that we do things as hunters, that the

512
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 2: choices that we are making when it comes to all

513
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 2: these different aspects that you could throw into the bucket

514
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 2: called the culture of hunting, how do we do that

515
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 2: in a better way as opposed to the way that

516
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 2: I see happening on social media a lot, or you

517
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 2: know that we imagine people throwing knives at each other metaphorically.

518
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,239
Speaker 3: Imagine is a good word, because I think what we

519
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 3: do when we call out something that we don't like

520
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 3: on social media or in the public arena is all

521
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 3: we've done is declaring our own position on it. It's

522
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 3: not a constructive way to change anybody else's mind because

523
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 3: right all of a sudden, you've seen how this works.

524
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 3: You've got a dogfight where people are eager to participate

525
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 3: and align themselves with one side the other. But there's

526
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 3: no in no way, shape or form, is that advancing

527
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 3: the discussion at all? Is just flag flying. And so

528
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 3: I think the worst thing to do is actually is

529
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 3: to critique or call out somebody in a public forum.

530
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 3: I think the way to do it is to call

531
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 3: them or email them or I don't, but to do

532
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 3: it on a personal basis. I think that does a

533
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 3: couple of very meaningful things.

534
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 4: One.

535
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 3: I think it's a lot more resonant to somebody who

536
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 3: is on the receiving end of that to say, you know,

537
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,959
Speaker 3: holy crap, I didn't. I wasn't not aware of that

538
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 3: line that I crossed. But because of this person whose

539
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 3: opinion I respect and who's articulated that in a good way,

540
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 3: I might not change my mind, but I'm aware that

541
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 3: I have like crossed the line. The alternative to that

542
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 3: is you just dig in. I mean, that's all, you know.

543
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 3: I love social media for so many windows into the world,

544
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 3: but it is not a medium for any kind of

545
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 3: discourse and it shouldn't be looked at that way at all.

546
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, unfortunately a lot of folks turned to it in

547
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 2: that capacity. But but I agree. How about we take

548
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 2: a how would we look at this through the lens

549
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 2: of a specific example, another specific example, and that being

550
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 2: technology in hunting. I think that is one of these issues,

551
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 2: not issues, but a category within this world of our

552
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 2: culture that has forever probably caused some level of consternation

553
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 2: throughout the hunting community every decade in some different form

554
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 2: or fashion, And it seems like that's even more so

555
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 2: the case now and likely will continue to be as

556
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 2: technology within our world continues to accelerate. I thought you

557
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 2: wrote a terrific piece about the use of thermal technology

558
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 2: recently over at the over an Outdoor Life, where you

559
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 2: explored this very thing. You talked about the the ramp

560
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 2: an increase in the use of thermal technology, where things

561
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 2: are headed, what that might mean for us, A variety

562
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 2: of different people's perspectives on it, And I thought you

563
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 2: did a very good job of kind of tackling something

564
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: like this without stamping your flag on the ground and

565
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 2: screaming like my way or the highway. But you also

566
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 2: wrote rose some I thought important questions that I certainly

567
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 2: that certainly resonated with me that I'll set when it

568
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,959
Speaker 2: comes to something like the use of thermal technology and

569
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 2: how that might impact what hunting is in the future.

570
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 2: What's what is your take on it? If you could

571
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 2: share it for folks that didn't read the article. What

572
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 2: are you what are your thoughts on this technology? What

573
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 2: are your thoughts on what that means for the future?

574
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 2: And is there anything we need to be doing or

575
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 2: thinking about or or wrestling with as a community if

576
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 2: this is where things are headed?

577
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,080
Speaker 3: Yeah? Oh man, how much time do we have and

578
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 3: probably a Thermals are such a fascinating category for me

579
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 3: for a couple of reasons. One is I backed into

580
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 3: learning about thermals as an extension of my work with

581
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 3: optics because they are they're you know, right there, they're adjacent.

582
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 3: They're a way of interacting with the world through a

583
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 3: visual medium. And at first they were in my experience

584
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 3: with them, they were they were a little bit like toys,

585
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 3: you know, they were kind of they were a little

586
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,240
Speaker 3: irrelevant because they were limited by their own lack of sophistication,

587
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 3: you know, these smudgy sort of blobs that were, you know,

588
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 3: vague suggestions of a distant animal. So at first was

589
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 3: pretty easy to dismiss them a little bit as like irrelevant.

590
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 3: That has changed in the last couple of years, and

591
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 3: I'm guessing you've experienced something similar, which is there is

592
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 3: a demographic in our world right now? Who about so

593
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 3: my kids are my twin is there twenty three their buddies? Actually,

594
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 3: after I wrote that piece, I must have gotten six

595
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,879
Speaker 3: or seven messages from them saying, hey, can you hook

596
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 3: me up with thermals? Like the reason I mentioned that is,

597
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 3: I think if if you are and I don't even

598
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 3: I want to scribe, you know, sort of familiarity with it,

599
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 3: but it really is, at least in my experience, a

600
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 3: younger demographic who is very interested in in viewing the

601
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,399
Speaker 3: world and maybe participating in seasons and opportunities that are

602
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 3: have really been off limit. I'm talking kind of night

603
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 3: time hunting. If you kind of think about you know,

604
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 3: I hope we get into this too, Like we have

605
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 3: made our world so small in terms of exploiting available

606
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 3: opportunity as hunters. Right the minute there's a season that

607
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 3: we can like overloit, we are We're tending to do this,

608
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 3: whether it's a an access opportunity right now, we're very

609
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:19,439
Speaker 3: like as a community, I feel like we are. Yeah,

610
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 3: we're kind of an exploiting mode again, kind of selfishly

611
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 3: like we want to We kind of see that there's

612
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 3: competition and we've got the means and the abilities to

613
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 3: sort of win that competition or at least we're going to

614
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 3: give it a damn good try. So anyway, if you

615
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 3: think about like the crowding issue, the one sort of

616
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,839
Speaker 3: place that we don't have crowding is it night that's

617
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 3: kind of the new frontier of opportunity. And I think

618
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 3: a lot of these kids are sort of seeing that,

619
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 3: like man public land and in terms of the deer

620
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 3: season and bird season is not that much fun. There's

621
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 3: a lot of people out there. But if I get

622
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 3: this magic tube and I put it on my gun,

623
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 3: I can go hunt coyotes at night. I got the

624
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 3: place to myself. And I think that's I think that's

625
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 3: really important thing to recognize is it's a little bit

626
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 3: of a vacuum that's being filled with this. The second

627
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 3: thing is technology being what it is and doing what

628
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 3: it does. It is getting way more sophisticated, way faster,

629
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 3: as prices are coming down, as technology, as like the

630
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 3: digital technology is getting better, and as like employing it

631
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 3: within these sort of mobile devices is getting better. I

632
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 3: mention that because it's no longer these sort of vague

633
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 3: blobs out there, Like, you know, some of the best

634
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 3: thermals that I tested this year have got high definition

635
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 3: sensors paired with high definition screens. It's unbelievable the viewing

636
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 3: capability of these things. You pair that with you know,

637
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 3: real time video and image recording and the ability to

638
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 3: share that out, and now you've got like a pretty

639
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 3: disruptive technology that's out there, And what my piece was

640
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 3: talking about a little bit is like, hey, buckle up,

641
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 3: because I don't think we I think we're just in

642
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 3: the dawn of seeing the leading edge of this sophistication

643
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 3: of this category. We actually have an analog in the

644
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 3: fishing world with this forward facing sonar that has really disrupted,

645
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 3: especially the tournament fishing. These are expensive units and so

646
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,439
Speaker 3: it's not everybody who can afford it. But what I'm

647
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 3: seeing in that world a whileye on bass fishermen, but

648
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 3: also you know, saltwater tournament fishermen who got a lot

649
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 3: of money on the line, is there's a real have

650
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 3: and have not division that's being starkly kind of separated

651
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 3: right now, where if you've got this technology, you're competing

652
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,879
Speaker 3: on an entirely different level than people who don't. What

653
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 3: worries me a little bit when I extrapolate that experience

654
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 3: on hunting is we already have these crowding issues I

655
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 3: alluded to. We already have sort of this competition that

656
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 3: is kind of breaking my heart when it's coming to

657
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 3: its influence on hunting. And now you've got this technology

658
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 3: that really does allow you to have an edge, a

659
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 3: competitive edge on somebody else. If you don't have it,

660
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,879
Speaker 3: you are going to be sort of relegated to using

661
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 3: your traditional field skills. Now how boring is that?

662
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 2: Right?

663
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 3: And so I just thought it was instead of like,

664
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 3: and again, I didn't think it was my place to

665
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 3: say this is right or wrong and apply that kind

666
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 3: of value judgment to the category. I felt like it

667
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 3: was my role in my job and this may define

668
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 3: kind of my role in the community is to like

669
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 3: raise awareness. And maybe that's kind of a limpristed, sort

670
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 3: of half past way of interacting with the community. But

671
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 3: I think there'll always been members of communities who have

672
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 3: done that, and I guess I look at that in

673
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 3: my role. Sometimes I have strong feelings about it, but

674
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 3: I think if I voiced them in the context of

675
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 3: that piece, all of a sudden, what I'm trying to

676
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,320
Speaker 3: do is marginalized because oh, McKean's all for thermals or

677
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 3: McKean is all against thermals. But instead, what I hope

678
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 3: it does is is just a thought starter. It's like, hey,

679
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:09,760
Speaker 3: let's think about how this is going to be used.

680
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 3: And actually, just today I had a meeting of the

681
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 3: Boone and Crockett Club's ethics committee where we talked about this.

682
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 3: It's like, is it important for the club to impose

683
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,800
Speaker 3: it sort of you know, influence on the public policy

684
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 3: of this, should these be regulated or is it enough

685
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 3: to say, actually, the fair chase doctrine of the club

686
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 3: already kind of talks about this. So anyway, that was

687
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 3: a great example I think of a really disruptive and

688
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:44,959
Speaker 3: potentially divisive category of technology that if we're not thinking

689
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 3: about it, we should be.

690
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 2: So you had to be a little bit understated with

691
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 2: your own perspective in that article, but you don't need

692
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 2: to be understated with it on this podcast. If you

693
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 2: were to have your druthers, or if you were to

694
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 2: have some level of influence, or if you could in

695
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 2: some kind of way guide us towards how to deal

696
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 2: with something like this, this kind of disruptive technology that

697
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 2: could dramatically change what the future of how we engage

698
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,479
Speaker 2: with wildlife is. I mean, there are many risks tied

699
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 2: to it, not just in you know, what hunting is,

700
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 2: but also if this kind of technology continues, will it

701
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 2: just lead to reduced opportunity for hunters because they have

702
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 2: to shut down seasons or change things, et cetera. Like

703
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 2: there's a lot of downstream effects from this kind of technology.

704
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 2: What do we how do we address that? I mean,

705
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 2: I agree that increasing awareness about getting the conversation going,

706
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 2: that's in a very important first step and I think

707
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 2: that's what we're doing here today too. But also like

708
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 2: now what, Yeah, that's.

709
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 3: A great question. So I don't think that the category

710
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 3: should be banned. I think it should be limited. I

711
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 3: think it should be we should have a better idea

712
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:24,879
Speaker 3: of those downstream effects. But I think in terms of

713
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 3: a technology, a rising technology, none of us should be

714
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 3: surprised by this. One of the things that I've noticed

715
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 3: just in terms of if you look at it, like

716
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 3: I mentioned, I presented it as an adjacency to optics.

717
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 3: The integration of electronics and optics has been a trend

718
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 3: that we've really seen sharpening over the last four or

719
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 3: five years, maybe a little bit longer. But in terms

720
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:54,399
Speaker 3: of like really getting is capable technology. So I think

721
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 3: the fact that we're seeing like a digital rendering of

722
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 3: our world through these devices shouldn't scarce them much. We've

723
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 3: been seeing that in all kinds of other ways. I

724
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 3: think where we should be concerned about it, though, is

725
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 3: do we have an ability through the thermal part of that,

726
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 3: or maybe it's night vision, or maybe it's I don't know,

727
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,399
Speaker 3: plasma of recognition stuff that we haven't even seen come

728
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 3: down the line yet. Maybe it's, you know, a DNA identifier.

729
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:30,800
Speaker 3: Should we be worried about that affecting I would say

730
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 3: what I would describe as sort of the democracy of

731
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 3: the experience of hunting, and I would say, oh, heavens, yes,

732
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 3: that's it's at that level. I think that we should

733
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 3: be involved either regulating it, either highly regulating it, or

734
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 3: creating a set of expectations where it can be used.

735
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 3: I actually don't mind the Boone and Crockett Club's way

736
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 3: of looking at it, almost like on a private sector thing,

737
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 3: like we're not going to tell you can't use it.

738
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:58,439
Speaker 3: We are going to tell you that if you want

739
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 3: to enter this animal and our record book, you can't

740
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 3: use it. And I think that's maybe a soft boiled

741
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 3: way to get into it. That's not a bad way

742
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 3: to sort of test out some of these things. Let

743
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 3: me give you another example of the downstream effect that

744
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 3: you're talking about, and that's crossbows. I think there's a

745
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 3: real sort of analog to the admin of crossbows and

746
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 3: then the corporation of them in archery seasons. And you know,

747
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 3: one of the things that has been shown in Ohio,

748
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 3: which was an early adopter of crossbows, is yes, it

749
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 3: increased participation. That's a good thing, but it also started to,

750
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 3: you know, to change the composition of the mature buck harvest.

751
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 3: More big bucks were being killed with crossbows than traditional bows.

752
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that's good or bad, but we should

753
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 3: be aware of that. That should be a measurable thing

754
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 3: and we should have mechanisms in place to address it.

755
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 3: You know, whether it's shortening seasons, limiting opportunities having their

756
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 3: own season with restrictions. I don't quite know what that,

757
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 3: like prescription is, but those are all things I don't

758
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 3: think we know at this point. How are thermalst being used.

759
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 3: You know, it's easy to say, oh, it's the tool

760
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 3: of poachers. I don't actually believe that personally. I think

761
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 3: if somebody's going to poach, they're gonna poach no matter what.

762
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:17,439
Speaker 3: But is it helping hunters select for a different kind

763
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 3: of animal or for a different experience, or is it

764
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 3: allowing hunters to detect animals in places they wouldn't ordinarily

765
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 3: have gone. I'll be honest with one of the things

766
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 3: I would love to measure, because this is just rank

767
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 3: speculation at this point, is I firmly believe that nighttime

768
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:40,359
Speaker 3: is an important reset time for wild animals, like there's

769
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 3: there's we owe them the mercy of like not messing

770
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,359
Speaker 3: with them at night if we want them to stay

771
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 3: in the countryside, and I think we do. I worry

772
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 3: that if we start pounding animals at night, and not

773
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 3: just shooting coyotes or non game species, but our presence

774
00:45:55,719 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 3: in secure habitat that is nighttime for the animals that

775
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 3: maybe we want to hunt regulated game animals, We're going

776
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 3: to change their behavior and their distribution. That is not

777
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 3: I don't think it's a good thing, but we ought

778
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 3: to be aware of that before we start to say,

779
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 3: here's what we need to do with this technology.

780
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,359
Speaker 4: Yeah.

781
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 2: So there are so many other examples of technology like

782
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 2: this that are impacting hunting in one way or another,

783
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 2: and we'll continue to do so. Right, we could talk

784
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 2: about long range rifles, we could talk about sell cameras

785
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 2: and live streaming cameras. Now, we could talk about who

786
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 2: knows what the GPS mapping technology and all that, right,

787
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 2: there's all these different forms of technology change over the

788
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 2: recent years that are really changing the activity the pursuit,

789
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 2: impacting success levels, possibly impacting you know, population levels at

790
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 2: some point, like you mentioned, like we've seen examples of

791
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 2: that in the past. In that article you wrote, our

792
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 2: mutual friend Joe was quoted kind of saying like when

793
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,399
Speaker 2: it came to the forward facing sonar, like you can't

794
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,879
Speaker 2: put the genie back in the bottle, Like these technologies

795
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 2: are coming or they're here, and you can't slow that

796
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 2: locomotive down. Right, So there's one perspective on all this

797
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 2: that says, like, you know, it's a lost cause bemoaning

798
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 2: any of this, because like technology will do what technology

799
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 2: will do, and capitalism and the market is going to

800
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 2: determine where things are headed and you can either hop

801
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 2: on board or you can put your head in the sand. So,

802
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 2: just as a kind of a final bow on this

803
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 2: whole technology thing, like like technology is such a huge

804
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 2: influencer on what hunting is and what our culture is,

805
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 2: and it is going to continue to be the case

806
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 2: moving forward. And if it seems like this is something

807
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 2: that's going to continue to change what this thing is,

808
00:47:55,760 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 2: how do we or what levers of influence do we

809
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 2: have honestly, other than like, let's talk about it, like

810
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 2: we can. We can talk about these things. We can

811
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 2: worry ourselves about these things. But if this stuff is

812
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 2: concerning in kind of way, what can the average person do?

813
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 2: If we think that is the case?

814
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 3: Oh, I think we I actually disagree with Joe. This

815
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 3: is Joe Cermelli that Mark was just talking about. Who

816
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 3: was talking about the sort of inexorable advance of technology

817
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 3: when it came to phishing, and that we need to

818
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 3: just embrace it and accept it. I actually don't believe that.

819
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 3: I actually I think we have an obligation to not

820
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 3: only our community that you've mentioned before, but also people

821
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 3: we've never met yet, people future members of our community,

822
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 3: to retain the sense of self restraint and sort of

823
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 3: this is a really weird word, but it's what popped

824
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 3: into my mind, sort of decorum when it comes to hunting.

825
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know if it was Tony who

826
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 3: was talking about the idea of restraint, and like the reward,

827
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:14,279
Speaker 3: the intrinsic rewards you get by limiting your ability are

828
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 3: so much higher than sort of the external rewards of

829
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 3: the trophy that you're actually after. And I think I

830
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 3: think that's a super important perspective to share in the

831
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,879
Speaker 3: context of this, But I think we owe it to

832
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 3: our community to it's called bullshit when it happens, and this,

833
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 3: I think is bullshit in a lot of ways. We

834
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 3: actually have an example. Do you remember, this is the

835
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 3: Elder Statesman in me coming out. Do you remember, Sonny

836
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 3: a thing called Tracking Point. This would have been you

837
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 3: were just coming on the scene. This probably would have

838
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,320
Speaker 3: been ten or twelve years ago. And what it was

839
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 3: was a rifle scope software combination that a lot with

840
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 3: a laser range finder that basically allowed you to aim

841
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:10,320
Speaker 3: a gun with your like tablet and it and you know,

842
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 3: it was a coordinated sort of set of all of

843
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 3: this gear and it was inherited from the military. But

844
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 3: it also it was so disruptive for that, I would

845
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 3: say that time, but for any time that our community

846
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:26,919
Speaker 3: said no, that's a bridge too far and that there's

847
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 3: no place for that, and somewhat that that opposition was

848
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 3: somewhat couched in the sense of like critics immediately went

849
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 3: to like remote hunting, like this could be something that

850
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:40,800
Speaker 3: you could use in the hunter wouldn't even have to

851
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 3: be on the landscape. Right when we think about the

852
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,840
Speaker 3: advance of technology, that's not that far fetched. Our ability

853
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:52,320
Speaker 3: with remote cameras and remote sensing stuff like that's probably

854
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 3: in the near term, like to popularize that kind of technology.

855
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 3: What would we say, as a community, do you actually

856
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,439
Speaker 3: have to be present to take the animal? I would say,

857
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 3: that's a pretty damn bright line. And that's what that

858
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 3: tracking point sort of example sort of revealed. And the

859
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 3: community came actually pretty unified and said no. And so

860
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 3: I'm not scared of kind of the result. What I'm

861
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 3: scared about in all this is not having the conversation.

862
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so let's let's pivot a little bit to

863
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 2: another one of these categories of I guess whatever this

864
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 2: giant cauldron that we're going to consider the related to

865
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 2: the culture of hunting, and that would be another thing

866
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 2: that we talked about last time, which is the rising.

867
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 2: I mean, this is not a new thing at all now,

868
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:47,399
Speaker 2: but when you look at that actual let's let's pivot

869
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 2: to something you wrote about relatively recently, which was the

870
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 2: survey that came out I think earlier in the year

871
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 2: that showed for the first time in a while a

872
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 2: decline in public approval for hunting. We've seen in these

873
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 2: surveys in the past that largely there is support for hunting,

874
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 2: but trophy hunting not so much. That's always been one

875
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 2: of those things that the non hunting public is not

876
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 2: on board with. That continues to become more and more

877
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 2: the case, and now we're seeing even just the general

878
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 2: idea of hunting is losing support within the within the

879
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:24,959
Speaker 2: larger world. Zoom back into what the culture of hunting

880
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 2: in these days, and in many ways you might say

881
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 2: that the culture of hunting is increasingly becoming more one

882
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 2: of trophy hunting, the glamorization, the idolization of big trophy everything.

883
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 2: It's hard to avoid it. I am as guilty of

884
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 2: it as anyone. I love a big buck as much

885
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 2: as the next guy a girl. But we spent a

886
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 2: lot of time talking about this last time, and we

887
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 2: all know that there are risks and downsides and concerns

888
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 2: when we reduce this pursuit in lifestyle and activity and

889
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 2: thing that we do. When it's reduced to simply that thing,

890
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:13,240
Speaker 2: the antlers or the animal, the trophy, the size, the whatever.

891
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 2: What's your take on where things stand when it comes

892
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 2: to trophy hunting today and is that something you're concerned

893
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 2: about at all? Is it overblown? Is it something that's

894
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 2: just fine as it stands? Or if not, whoa where

895
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 2: do we need to take things?

896
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:38,359
Speaker 3: This answer might surprise you. I actually am not as

897
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 3: worried about it now as I was maybe five years ago.

898
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 3: And I was not as worried about it five years

899
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 3: ago as I was ten years ago. So I don't

900
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 3: think this is actually anything new. In fact, I think

901
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 3: I'm still worried about it. Don't get me wrong. I

902
00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 3: think this is an essential part of our conversation and

903
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 3: we need need to talk about it. But in terms

904
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 3: of it like singularly defining our community, either internally or externally,

905
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:12,280
Speaker 3: I'm not as worried about it. And if I follow

906
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 3: sort of that continuum along, I think we're getting better

907
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:21,359
Speaker 3: at describing a trophy that's not just a visual representation

908
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 3: of an animal and our visual representation of us with

909
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:29,600
Speaker 3: that animal. You know, maybe it's a little Pollyanna ish.

910
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:32,839
Speaker 3: I still see it. I still like it's still I

911
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 3: still love to see big Bucks. I still have to

912
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 3: see big antlers still. And as you know, that content

913
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:42,279
Speaker 3: resonates like it does better. And so from all of

914
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:45,720
Speaker 3: sort of the external metrics of reward, like we should

915
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:48,440
Speaker 3: do more of it because like Havelov's dog, it gets

916
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 3: u you know, it's a feedback loop. But I do

917
00:54:53,719 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 3: think there's that we're becoming better at redefining a trophy

918
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 3: that's not just inches of antler. It's a trophy experience.

919
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 3: It's a trophy day in the field. And I know

920
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:07,839
Speaker 3: those are all like soft boiled things, and they then

921
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 3: they don't do as well, they take a little bit

922
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:14,799
Speaker 3: more time. I do think it's one place in our

923
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:22,479
Speaker 3: community where we can collectively clock our tongues at people

924
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:26,840
Speaker 3: who are such over egoists when it comes to a trophy,

925
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 3: to say this is this is hurting everybody and have

926
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 3: and and I think that's a great discussion to have,

927
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:38,800
Speaker 3: you know, like hopefully if you're sort of the offender

928
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:40,800
Speaker 3: of it, you defend yourself and say, well, you missed

929
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,319
Speaker 3: the point. Well, because social media often misses the point.

930
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 3: So we need to do a better job of like

931
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 3: putting that nuance in thing. What was the point if

932
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 3: it wasn't just that. I do think the idea of

933
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 3: pronouns in our world, the I and the and the

934
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 3: me part is a huge part of what's gotten us

935
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 3: in trouble with the lar larger world. If you look

936
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 3: at that survey, going back to that, there's there's problems

937
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 3: with trophy hunting, as there's always been in there deepening,

938
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 3: but there's also problems with people who responded to that survey,

939
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 3: with hunting that seems to be individual, individually rewarding. In

940
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 3: other words, a hunter who says I only hunt to

941
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 3: feed my family. The survey for the first time actually

942
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 3: took a dim view of that, or a dimmer view

943
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:33,760
Speaker 3: than that. When hunters talked about like the larger public

944
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:38,280
Speaker 3: value of hunting, I hunt because you know, it prevents

945
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 3: wildlife damage from my neighbor or for wildlife management reasons,

946
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 3: those actually had relatively high approval ratings. So I think

947
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 3: that sort of like that. Yeah, the I and the

948
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:52,319
Speaker 3: me part of hunting is a is something that we

949
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 3: really need to be watching, whether it's a trophy animal

950
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:58,799
Speaker 3: that expresses that, or if it's something that says that,

951
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:00,839
Speaker 3: you know, this is so to me that you'd never

952
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 3: understand it. You're doing a very bad job of communicating

953
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:05,240
Speaker 3: why that's socially important.

954
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:09,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, So is there anything and you guys have done

955
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,279
Speaker 2: a great job outdoor life and field and stream has

956
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 2: done a good job of this, and we try to

957
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 2: do it a mediator, that being showcasing by example, ways

958
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 2: to talk about these things, ways to illustrate these things,

959
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 2: ways to demonstrate hunting is more than just killing a trophy. Right,

960
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 2: But is there anything that you have learned more recently

961
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:35,600
Speaker 2: or kind of fine tuned your thoughts around how we

962
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 2: can do these things that you're talking about, how we

963
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 2: can showcase, whether it be on social media or when

964
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:43,479
Speaker 2: talking to our non hunting friends, just to make sure

965
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 2: that we are accurately portraying what hunting is in a

966
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 2: way that is positively resonant with the outside world. That's

967
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:54,160
Speaker 2: more and more important.

968
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 3: So I think part of the problem with it is

969
00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 3: like the immediacy of social media, Right, we cannot wait

970
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 3: to post this experience that we're still like trembling over.

971
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 3: And I think the immediacy of social media is actually

972
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 3: part of the problem with it. Like I'll use an example,

973
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 3: and this is definitely still like a it's a study

974
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 3: in progress. I shot the best white tail with my

975
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 3: bow that I've ever shot this past fall. I haven't

976
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 3: posted one thing about it I was so, I mean

977
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 3: it was like, so I hunt just from the ground,

978
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 3: like it's part of it's like my ADHD. Part of

979
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:34,720
Speaker 3: it is like my fear of heights. Part of it.

980
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 3: I don't know, there's a whole bunch of stuff that

981
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 3: goes into it. But I am wildly unsuccessful hunting white

982
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 3: tails from the ground. But I know that going into

983
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 3: it too. Like also I coach in the fall, so

984
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 3: like my time like in the field is a little

985
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 3: bit limited, and like all that is like by way

986
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:55,919
Speaker 3: of context. So like when I go hunting, I have

987
00:58:56,360 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 3: the expectation it's going to fail miserably, but I still

988
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 3: like try to like put the odds in my favor

989
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:06,440
Speaker 3: and work the wind and try to go out. Like

990
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:08,919
Speaker 3: I skipped cross country on this particular day, skip cross

991
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 3: country practice because the wind was out of the southeast,

992
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 3: which it never is, which meant I could approach this

993
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 3: field from a different way. I used to think I

994
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:25,080
Speaker 3: was super invincible because for probably it was. I usually

995
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 3: hunt just doze from the ground because I've all already

996
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:30,240
Speaker 3: given up on kind of the buck segment of the populash.

997
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:33,479
Speaker 3: No it's talking, but for probably five or six six

998
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 3: straight successful kills. The deer did not jump my strength

999
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:40,800
Speaker 3: and I was like, well, I've got this figured out.

1000
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 2: And the.

1001
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 3: Next six like you know, things didn't go very well.

1002
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:50,520
Speaker 3: What I'm getting at though, is like this time it

1003
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 3: all worked out, and like if there was ever, like

1004
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 3: ever an achievement to crow about from the top of

1005
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 3: the tallest cotton would this was it. It was really funny,

1006
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 3: Like I part of it's my age, and part of

1007
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 3: it is the context. Like I need, I need to

1008
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:10,280
Speaker 3: think about this. I cannot wait to tell this story.

1009
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:15,480
Speaker 3: It worked out like unbelievably well, and most of it

1010
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:17,760
Speaker 3: was my great abilities, but some of them was just

1011
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 3: rank luck. But to me, what I hope that what

1012
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:24,680
Speaker 3: I'm trying to say is the quick hit that I

1013
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:29,200
Speaker 3: would have gotten from like celebrating that success immediately. I

1014
01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 3: feel yet to be proven that it's actually a much

1015
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 3: richer and deeper experience when I finally tell this story

1016
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:38,840
Speaker 3: and all of the context around it, that to me

1017
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 3: makes it a story worth telling.

1018
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I bet there is.

1019
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:03,240
Speaker 2: Something similar true for folks that even aren't creating content

1020
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 2: to the degree that you are right, I'm guilty of

1021
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 2: the quick hit. Like I'm so excited to share with

1022
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 2: the world what's going on too. But I have found,

1023
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 2: like in a smaller scale, when I've held back a

1024
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:22,760
Speaker 2: few days and just enjoyed it for myself before I

1025
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:25,480
Speaker 2: let the world in on it, and then all the

1026
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:28,680
Speaker 2: corresponding noise that comes with that that I'll sometimes let

1027
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:32,360
Speaker 2: myself be affected by, I'm always happier just to enjoy

1028
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:35,000
Speaker 2: it myself. Like the outside noise is never actually a

1029
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 2: good thing, even though our like dopamine craving inner lizard

1030
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 2: wants you to do that. And so I think you

1031
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:46,600
Speaker 2: bring up a really really good point, and we would

1032
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 2: probably all be a lot healthier and happier if we

1033
01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:51,600
Speaker 2: could resist that urge more often.

1034
01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 3: So I again, this is you've You've done something, probably

1035
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:02,080
Speaker 3: really dangerous. So I'm kind of just thinking as the

1036
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 3: thoughts or saying as the thoughts come to me. But

1037
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 3: I think one of the things, I again, this is

1038
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 3: going to be a little trial balloon. If we have

1039
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:14,520
Speaker 3: to delete the entire thing, that's great. But I think

1040
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:17,280
Speaker 3: the problem I have with social media is actually it's

1041
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 3: a supercharger of this idea that we have as a community.

1042
01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:26,120
Speaker 3: Wait till you hear the word too, you're going to

1043
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 3: be like, yeah, this word actually came up in the

1044
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:33,800
Speaker 3: context of state agencies when they were like looking ahead

1045
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:38,120
Speaker 3: to the future of like are we losing hunters? Are

1046
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:40,480
Speaker 3: we going to have less engagement of hunters? And the

1047
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 3: word that they use was relevance. And I think social

1048
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 3: media is like, this is this supercharger of relevance, and

1049
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:52,919
Speaker 3: we feel more relevant in the moment when we post.

1050
01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 3: So that's that quick hit you're talking about, Like that

1051
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 3: that dopamine, that like that feedback loop. That's like a

1052
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:07,040
Speaker 3: self congratulatory or it like it it confirms our relevance

1053
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:10,960
Speaker 3: in the world. And I think that idea of relevance

1054
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 3: is super super dangerous because I think what it does

1055
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:18,200
Speaker 3: is it's given us a ready excuse to say, well,

1056
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:21,040
Speaker 3: like we just talked about reach and engagement and audience

1057
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:23,280
Speaker 3: size and like all of the things that in our

1058
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:29,160
Speaker 3: digital world are proxies for relevance are pretty easy to

1059
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:33,200
Speaker 3: gain in a lot of ways. I just don't I

1060
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:38,080
Speaker 3: think they're I think they're really perishable. Yeah, And I

1061
01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:42,240
Speaker 3: think sort of the larger sort of like idea of

1062
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 3: relevance and longer term relevance is something that that is

1063
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:52,520
Speaker 3: not that's earned. I guess I'll just say that.

1064
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, so.

1065
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:01,280
Speaker 2: Adjacent to this side of the equation and but very

1066
01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 2: very related to this whole social media influence over our culture.

1067
01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:14,479
Speaker 2: We have the specter of anti hunters and all sorts

1068
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 2: of things in the you know, for many, many years,

1069
01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 2: but in the last years so there's been a lot

1070
01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:23,000
Speaker 2: around predators. Right There's there's a lot of buzz these

1071
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 2: days about ballot box biology and the initiative in Colorado

1072
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 2: right now, and things have happened in Washington and elsewhere where.

1073
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 2: There are folks coming at predator hunting or trapping, as

1074
01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 2: you mentioned earlier, real threats to opportunities for hunters. At

1075
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:51,760
Speaker 2: the same time, there has forever but continuing now, been

1076
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 2: plenty of anti predator vitriol coming from within our community.

1077
01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:04,240
Speaker 2: So you've got you've got worries about anti hunters trying

1078
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 2: to take away opportunities to hunt for predators or to trap.

1079
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:13,680
Speaker 2: And then you've got hunters within our community who seem

1080
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:17,080
Speaker 2: to hate predators sometimes too. I just had a friend

1081
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:21,720
Speaker 2: send me a picture that is not too terribly unique,

1082
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:25,520
Speaker 2: sent me a picture of this post on Facebook of

1083
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:29,160
Speaker 2: eight guys in Michigan up in the up. As I

1084
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:34,200
Speaker 2: understand it with white hoods over their heads while holding

1085
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 2: a dead wolf and rifles pointed at it. And that

1086
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:43,200
Speaker 2: was shared on Facebook relatively recently. So there's this kind

1087
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:46,400
Speaker 2: of imagery out there, right. We all seen the shoot

1088
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:49,000
Speaker 2: shovel and shut up stickers, and you hear about everyone

1089
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 2: smoke a packa day. You're in Montana, you see it

1090
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:55,120
Speaker 2: all the time. I'm sure there's a tremendous amount of

1091
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:01,880
Speaker 2: I don't know what's called oedan like hate sometimes around

1092
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 2: carnivores within our community too. So you've got these these

1093
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:07,800
Speaker 2: two different things kind of going on where we've got

1094
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:10,960
Speaker 2: folks worried about taking away the opportunity to manage predators.

1095
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:14,440
Speaker 2: You also have this we hate predators kind of thing

1096
01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:19,400
Speaker 2: within the community, and it creates this feedback loop of

1097
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:24,160
Speaker 2: sorts where I find it's becoming self defeating within our community.

1098
01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:26,960
Speaker 2: This is I'm guilty of this, Andrew, where I start

1099
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:29,680
Speaker 2: talking and I ramble on about a thing without getting

1100
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:32,400
Speaker 2: too a question, but I'm getting I'm going somewhere with this.

1101
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:38,160
Speaker 2: All of this has me worried about our culture within

1102
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:41,200
Speaker 2: hunting when it comes to both the our ability to

1103
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:45,360
Speaker 2: manage predators in the productive way. Also all of this

1104
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:48,000
Speaker 2: stuff impacting the pr of hunting and the image of

1105
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:50,640
Speaker 2: hunting and stuff. So we've got is like very real

1106
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:57,080
Speaker 2: concerns about non hunters influencing a hunting opportunities. But then

1107
01:06:57,120 --> 01:06:59,760
Speaker 2: we also have groups within our hunting community who are

1108
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:05,560
Speaker 2: presenting ourselves, I believe, so poorly in showcasing what looks

1109
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:09,360
Speaker 2: like we cannot be trusted to responsibly manage predators because

1110
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:12,959
Speaker 2: we just want to wipe them out. What's your take

1111
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 2: on this? How do we approach the whole predator conundrum

1112
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 2: as a hunting community and culture. When it seems like

1113
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:30,080
Speaker 2: they are they're are a suite of species that deserve

1114
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:31,880
Speaker 2: to be in the landscape and are a part of

1115
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:37,600
Speaker 2: the natural world and operate important functions within an ecosystem.

1116
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:41,040
Speaker 2: We should be able to manage them and have them

1117
01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:42,760
Speaker 2: be a part of the hunting way of things. But

1118
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:45,520
Speaker 2: it seems like there's no easy middle ground that everyone

1119
01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:47,480
Speaker 2: can agree on. It seems like you hate them or

1120
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:53,240
Speaker 2: you love them, you're a crazy liberal or a hard

1121
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:56,720
Speaker 2: line far writer who wants them all gone. It's just

1122
01:07:56,800 --> 01:08:00,480
Speaker 2: this incredibly polarizing topic, and I think it's one of

1123
01:08:00,520 --> 01:08:02,840
Speaker 2: these things that's going to have an outsized impact on

1124
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:07,560
Speaker 2: the future of hunting anything. I'm going to stop talking

1125
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:09,520
Speaker 2: and just lets you address any one of the many

1126
01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:10,720
Speaker 2: things I just threw in the air there.

1127
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:16,559
Speaker 3: If you're guilty of rambling without asking a question, I

1128
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:22,280
Speaker 3: am guilty of rambling without answering the question. Boy, you

1129
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:25,519
Speaker 3: nailed it. In fact, I think predators are such an

1130
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:29,719
Speaker 3: interesting category because they do they have the outsize influence

1131
01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:34,760
Speaker 3: on both sides of the equation for sure. I'm going

1132
01:08:34,840 --> 01:08:38,160
Speaker 3: to use just one tiny, like very personal example to

1133
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:41,680
Speaker 3: what that I hope is kind of illustrative, and that is,

1134
01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:46,720
Speaker 3: in my county, we have a government trapper who, like

1135
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:49,360
Speaker 3: a lot of Western counties, he's hired by USDA's Animals

1136
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:55,240
Speaker 3: Services or Wildlife Services, and I think last year he

1137
01:08:55,280 --> 01:08:58,360
Speaker 3: shot like twenty five hundred coyotes, mostly from the air.

1138
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:04,120
Speaker 3: And I don't think I've seen more coyotes than I

1139
01:09:04,160 --> 01:09:08,160
Speaker 3: have seen this winter. The main point being, like our

1140
01:09:09,320 --> 01:09:12,439
Speaker 3: sort of cultural fixation, and certainly within our communities you've

1141
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:15,719
Speaker 3: described it of like predators are bad, predators are actually

1142
01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:20,400
Speaker 3: taking opportunity away from us has been like baked into

1143
01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:25,320
Speaker 3: so much of our mindset. I honestly do not believe

1144
01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:29,080
Speaker 3: it In fact, in my personal experience, what I have

1145
01:09:29,200 --> 01:09:32,360
Speaker 3: noticed is, you know, the better habitat you've got, the

1146
01:09:32,360 --> 01:09:36,000
Speaker 3: better prey base you've got, the better more predators you're

1147
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:38,200
Speaker 3: going to have. And I think I think that's something

1148
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:40,599
Speaker 3: that we need to start to just recognize it when

1149
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:43,920
Speaker 3: we see it. Is we've got great hunting. We also

1150
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:46,400
Speaker 3: have a lot of raccoons around, you know. Yeah, I

1151
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:49,160
Speaker 3: would say there's a obviously there's a tipping point, and

1152
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:50,800
Speaker 3: I think we're seeing it with you know, quail and

1153
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:54,479
Speaker 3: some upland bird species for sure. But my main point being,

1154
01:09:54,920 --> 01:09:58,360
Speaker 3: I think we have allowed ourselves a blind spot when

1155
01:09:58,360 --> 01:10:01,200
Speaker 3: it comes to predators, whether you to you know, the

1156
01:10:01,439 --> 01:10:08,479
Speaker 3: cultural part of predators or whatever, But I firmly believe

1157
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:11,519
Speaker 3: that predators make our world a richer place. Like they're

1158
01:10:11,600 --> 01:10:14,240
Speaker 3: just it's a more interesting place. I mean, I live

1159
01:10:14,360 --> 01:10:17,080
Speaker 3: and hunt in a in places with grizzly bears, you know,

1160
01:10:17,120 --> 01:10:18,760
Speaker 3: and grizzly bears are working into the sort of my

1161
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:22,320
Speaker 3: homeland of the Missouri River breaks. I fully expect it's

1162
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:24,160
Speaker 3: going to change the way I l hunt within my

1163
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:27,879
Speaker 3: probably near near term. It's going to save my lifetime,

1164
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:29,800
Speaker 3: but it's going to be way quicker than what you know.

1165
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:33,760
Speaker 3: I hope my lifetime extends to I used to say

1166
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 3: ten years now like they're they are in the breaks.

1167
01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:38,680
Speaker 2: They're in the APR now, huh.

1168
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:42,040
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I'm concerned about how it's going to affect things,

1169
01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:43,719
Speaker 3: but I can't In some ways, I can't wait because

1170
01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:46,679
Speaker 3: I think it's going to make for a much different, yeah,

1171
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:50,639
Speaker 3: but richer experience of dealing with them.

1172
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:51,000
Speaker 2: And so.

1173
01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:55,000
Speaker 3: I think if we I think this is actually one

1174
01:10:55,040 --> 01:10:58,479
Speaker 3: of the elements where we have the ability as a

1175
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:02,519
Speaker 3: hunting community to make positive in roads with the non

1176
01:11:02,600 --> 01:11:06,240
Speaker 3: hunting community by saying, actually, we are at we want

1177
01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:09,200
Speaker 3: the same things here. It may be a question degrees

1178
01:11:09,240 --> 01:11:12,400
Speaker 3: and sort of numeric tolerance, like I don't want I

1179
01:11:13,240 --> 01:11:15,160
Speaker 3: want to see grizzly bears managed. I want to see

1180
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:17,840
Speaker 3: wolves managed. I think the greatest gift we can give

1181
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:21,839
Speaker 3: to a wildlife species is actually managing them through hunting

1182
01:11:22,920 --> 01:11:29,160
Speaker 3: to welcome their place on the landscape and actually build

1183
01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:33,280
Speaker 3: advocates for their presence there. And I think that message

1184
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:35,880
Speaker 3: is one that if we can actually have a conversation,

1185
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:38,960
Speaker 3: then take the shrillness out of it. I think there's

1186
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:41,280
Speaker 3: a lot of shared values with people who want to

1187
01:11:41,320 --> 01:11:44,639
Speaker 3: see many more predators, but also recognized and when they

1188
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:50,840
Speaker 3: really are introspective about it, they recognize human presence in

1189
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:53,520
Speaker 3: these places is not going to allow for unmanaged predators

1190
01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:56,439
Speaker 3: numbers that there's going to have to be management, and

1191
01:11:56,479 --> 01:11:58,080
Speaker 3: that's where we meet in the middle and figure it out.

1192
01:11:58,880 --> 01:12:00,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1193
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:06,880
Speaker 2: So the larger issue, though not larger issue, but the

1194
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:15,280
Speaker 2: parallel issue to this tolerance of predators on the landscape

1195
01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:20,920
Speaker 2: by hunters as you're discussing and management of them. The

1196
01:12:21,280 --> 01:12:24,519
Speaker 2: flip of that is what we're seeing in places where

1197
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:27,519
Speaker 2: there is the ability to manage these critters. Now there's

1198
01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:29,880
Speaker 2: this risk that we might be losing that opportunity in

1199
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:35,240
Speaker 2: places like Colorado. I know you've been following, You've seen

1200
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:37,120
Speaker 2: what's been going on there, You've seen what's going on

1201
01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:41,600
Speaker 2: in other states. How do you see us as a

1202
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:45,040
Speaker 2: hunting community best addressing those kinds of things moving forward?

1203
01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:46,479
Speaker 2: Because this isn't going to be the end of it.

1204
01:12:47,040 --> 01:12:49,519
Speaker 2: This is going to be something will continue to have

1205
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:53,599
Speaker 2: to address for many years. I'm sure I personally believe

1206
01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:56,800
Speaker 2: that Step one is doing what you just said. When

1207
01:12:56,800 --> 01:12:59,479
Speaker 2: it comes to predators, we need to demonstrate to the

1208
01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:02,200
Speaker 2: non hunting public that we can be a part of

1209
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:05,240
Speaker 2: the solution that managing predators. Hunting predators is not a

1210
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:08,240
Speaker 2: death sentence to them as a population. It is a

1211
01:13:09,160 --> 01:13:12,000
Speaker 2: boon to them, actually, because if hunters are advocates for

1212
01:13:12,080 --> 01:13:14,919
Speaker 2: these species, it leads to better things for the species

1213
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:17,639
Speaker 2: long term. Right. We've seen that with so many other animals.

1214
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:20,400
Speaker 2: Why couldn't that be true for wolves or grizzly bears,

1215
01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:26,040
Speaker 2: et cetera. And when we have these things like the

1216
01:13:26,080 --> 01:13:28,479
Speaker 2: Facebook picture I told you about, I think that's the

1217
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:31,960
Speaker 2: kind of thing that leads to ballad initiatives getting support.

1218
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:35,719
Speaker 2: So all that said, what else can we be thinking

1219
01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:38,839
Speaker 2: about or doing differently or talking about differently to ensure

1220
01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:42,080
Speaker 2: that we don't have more of these Colorado ballad initiatives

1221
01:13:42,120 --> 01:13:43,960
Speaker 2: down the road, or that we can defeat them when

1222
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:45,800
Speaker 2: they do pop up when they do.

1223
01:13:47,479 --> 01:13:50,439
Speaker 3: I actually comment on the Colorado issue that I think

1224
01:13:50,479 --> 01:13:53,439
Speaker 3: has been I haven't heard it articulated, and it's you know,

1225
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:56,160
Speaker 3: it's an itchy thing to say, but I think it's

1226
01:13:56,280 --> 01:14:00,759
Speaker 3: influencing this discussion. And that is we as a hunting

1227
01:14:00,760 --> 01:14:05,639
Speaker 3: community have allowed mountain lion hunting as a specific, very

1228
01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:10,360
Speaker 3: narrow subset to be dominated by a very specially specialized

1229
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:15,280
Speaker 3: and special interest group of often commercial outfitters. Yeah, there's

1230
01:14:15,320 --> 01:14:18,320
Speaker 3: tons of guys who are running dogs who are not outfitters,

1231
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:23,240
Speaker 3: but a it's a pretty specialized thing. The reason I

1232
01:14:23,320 --> 01:14:29,519
Speaker 3: mention it is I think the mountain lion hunting community

1233
01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:32,599
Speaker 3: in Colorado, but anywhere else that it's done, and it's

1234
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:35,599
Speaker 3: done appropriately and managed, and I'm a big fan of it.

1235
01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:40,720
Speaker 3: But the takeaway is it's a guy who usually a

1236
01:14:40,760 --> 01:14:44,280
Speaker 3: guy who just showed up to shoot a mountain lion

1237
01:14:44,320 --> 01:14:47,400
Speaker 3: out of a tree. There is very little experience that

1238
01:14:47,439 --> 01:14:51,479
Speaker 3: they've had with the resource with the experience, and I

1239
01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:54,800
Speaker 3: think that's the client. I think that's an achilles heel

1240
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:56,720
Speaker 3: of this whole argument, and it's an easy one for

1241
01:14:56,760 --> 01:14:59,600
Speaker 3: the antis to exploit. So I think we need to

1242
01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:02,479
Speaker 3: do a better job of marginalizing that part, maybe sort

1243
01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:07,639
Speaker 3: of like I wouldn't say canceling it by any means,

1244
01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:11,320
Speaker 3: but making it less visible and amplifying the part of

1245
01:15:11,520 --> 01:15:18,320
Speaker 3: that of these amazing dogs that are doing remarkable athletic

1246
01:15:18,439 --> 01:15:22,080
Speaker 3: and instinctive things that they are not unlike your dog

1247
01:15:22,120 --> 01:15:24,439
Speaker 3: at home that also has these tendencies that we have

1248
01:15:24,520 --> 01:15:26,280
Speaker 3: sort of bred out of them. But here's a dog

1249
01:15:26,320 --> 01:15:30,400
Speaker 3: that's living its best life and managing a public resource

1250
01:15:30,439 --> 01:15:33,479
Speaker 3: that without management would be problematic. I think we could

1251
01:15:33,479 --> 01:15:36,160
Speaker 3: bring in all of the secondary things of it, But

1252
01:15:36,439 --> 01:15:38,920
Speaker 3: what I really worry about is we've given ammunition to

1253
01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:41,120
Speaker 3: the anti is to say, I mean, look at this.

1254
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:48,479
Speaker 3: This is just you're commercializing a resource and exploiting a

1255
01:15:48,560 --> 01:15:51,360
Speaker 3: resource for people who you know, have no business being

1256
01:15:51,360 --> 01:15:53,280
Speaker 3: in the woods. I believe everybody has a business being

1257
01:15:53,280 --> 01:15:56,839
Speaker 3: in the woods. But the filter that we have allowed

1258
01:15:56,880 --> 01:15:58,920
Speaker 3: to be sort of like draped over this, I don't

1259
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:02,560
Speaker 3: think is healthy for continuation of that activity.

1260
01:16:03,280 --> 01:16:05,920
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1261
01:16:06,360 --> 01:16:11,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's you mentioned something that the word ammunition, like

1262
01:16:12,560 --> 01:16:17,679
Speaker 2: giving ammunition to the and to hunting world is something

1263
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:21,960
Speaker 2: that so much of this discussion on culture is actually

1264
01:16:21,960 --> 01:16:25,759
Speaker 2: related to right. So much of the future of hunting,

1265
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:28,920
Speaker 2: whether we want to admit it or not, is dependent

1266
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:33,400
Speaker 2: on whether or not we continue to be accepted by

1267
01:16:33,400 --> 01:16:36,880
Speaker 2: the general public. Right, this is a privilege that we

1268
01:16:36,920 --> 01:16:38,519
Speaker 2: have to hunt. I know we like to think it's

1269
01:16:38,520 --> 01:16:41,719
Speaker 2: a right, but it's not a right. It's a privilege currently,

1270
01:16:42,360 --> 01:16:45,880
Speaker 2: and that means that we need to conduct ourselves in

1271
01:16:45,920 --> 01:16:49,240
Speaker 2: such a way that we continue to earn that privilege

1272
01:16:49,320 --> 01:16:55,360
Speaker 2: and demonstrate our role here in America to be able

1273
01:16:55,400 --> 01:17:00,839
Speaker 2: to hunt, and that can easily disappear with bad apples

1274
01:17:00,840 --> 01:17:04,920
Speaker 2: continuing to be the only thing sometimes that these folks see.

1275
01:17:05,240 --> 01:17:07,680
Speaker 2: So we need to be very, very careful. And I

1276
01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:11,000
Speaker 2: think that's why there's this need to have conversations on

1277
01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:13,080
Speaker 2: these types of topics where we are willing as a

1278
01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:16,919
Speaker 2: community to gather around and like I had this analogy

1279
01:17:17,120 --> 01:17:19,960
Speaker 2: last time with Dan and Tony. You know, I would

1280
01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:23,439
Speaker 2: much rather deal with our dirty laundry as a family

1281
01:17:23,479 --> 01:17:27,160
Speaker 2: around the table versus like this being out in the

1282
01:17:27,160 --> 01:17:30,720
Speaker 2: public square. Like, let's all get around the table. It's Thanksgiving,

1283
01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:33,040
Speaker 2: let's hash it out together. And yeah, we're going to

1284
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:35,080
Speaker 2: disagree in some things, and we're gonna approach things from

1285
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:37,880
Speaker 2: different perspectives, and yeah, you might throw some turkey at

1286
01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:41,400
Speaker 2: me one time, but like, let's let's handle it as

1287
01:17:41,400 --> 01:17:45,599
Speaker 2: a family, though not as enemies, not as two different

1288
01:17:45,680 --> 01:17:48,880
Speaker 2: political parties. No, like, we're going to figure this out

1289
01:17:49,080 --> 01:17:51,680
Speaker 2: together and make sure that this family can continue to

1290
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:55,559
Speaker 2: function as a family moving forward and keep this thing together.

1291
01:17:56,120 --> 01:17:58,840
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean though it's gonna be kumbaya every second, right,

1292
01:18:00,280 --> 01:18:02,519
Speaker 2: But I much rather do that than have some outside

1293
01:18:02,640 --> 01:18:05,680
Speaker 2: arbitr arbiter coming in and making decisions for us. I

1294
01:18:05,680 --> 01:18:09,080
Speaker 2: guess is what I'm getting at, and and I hope

1295
01:18:09,120 --> 01:18:12,639
Speaker 2: that this all leads to something positive like that down

1296
01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:13,040
Speaker 2: the road.

1297
01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:15,559
Speaker 3: Is this a setup for an intervention?

1298
01:18:15,800 --> 01:18:15,880
Speaker 4: Like?

1299
01:18:16,040 --> 01:18:17,240
Speaker 3: Is there something you want to tell me?

1300
01:18:18,040 --> 01:18:21,479
Speaker 2: No? No, But but it is a setup, Andrew for

1301
01:18:22,160 --> 01:18:25,680
Speaker 2: you to escape this because I know you've got a

1302
01:18:25,680 --> 01:18:27,960
Speaker 2: hard stop coming up relatively soon, and I want to

1303
01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:30,200
Speaker 2: be respectful that No.

1304
01:18:30,640 --> 01:18:33,840
Speaker 3: I appreciate that, but I can't let this go without like,

1305
01:18:34,400 --> 01:18:37,000
Speaker 3: I think that's I I could not agree with you more.

1306
01:18:37,040 --> 01:18:38,439
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's one of the things that

1307
01:18:38,479 --> 01:18:42,880
Speaker 3: we've like recognized in each other. The critique I would

1308
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:48,599
Speaker 3: have of that, though, is in that example, like we

1309
01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:52,400
Speaker 3: want to have a more sustainable I can't remember the

1310
01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:56,559
Speaker 3: words you use, but you know, a productive family. I

1311
01:18:56,600 --> 01:19:02,599
Speaker 3: think that implies that we share a common view of

1312
01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:06,000
Speaker 3: what our goal is, like what we should be trying

1313
01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:09,280
Speaker 3: to aspire to. I think the problem that we're in

1314
01:19:09,360 --> 01:19:11,799
Speaker 3: right now, and the reason that this discussion so vital

1315
01:19:12,040 --> 01:19:15,160
Speaker 3: is I don't think we have that. I don't think

1316
01:19:15,160 --> 01:19:23,960
Speaker 3: we know exactly what we're aspiring to is it sustainability,

1317
01:19:24,200 --> 01:19:28,200
Speaker 3: is it continuing these traditions to the next generation? Like

1318
01:19:28,920 --> 01:19:35,040
Speaker 3: what actually is it? Is it opportunity for all? And

1319
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:37,760
Speaker 3: I think we kind of founder when it comes to that, right,

1320
01:19:37,800 --> 01:19:43,439
Speaker 3: and that's that's well, I want the opportunity to hunt

1321
01:19:43,479 --> 01:19:46,000
Speaker 3: trophy bucks, you know, and however I can manage them,

1322
01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:49,559
Speaker 3: and that should be my sort of right, you know,

1323
01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:54,280
Speaker 3: or opportunity or ability. I guess now I'm kind of

1324
01:19:54,320 --> 01:19:57,160
Speaker 3: tripping all over my tongue. But I do think that's

1325
01:19:57,200 --> 01:20:02,200
Speaker 3: a problem that we don't have a singular view of

1326
01:20:02,240 --> 01:20:06,160
Speaker 3: what we're aspiring to. And I would just say one

1327
01:20:06,160 --> 01:20:09,559
Speaker 3: more thing. One of the things in just human history

1328
01:20:12,520 --> 01:20:16,320
Speaker 3: that has brought people together is a shared enemy and

1329
01:20:16,800 --> 01:20:22,520
Speaker 3: this conflict and is shared purpose around a conflict. And

1330
01:20:20,840 --> 01:20:24,640
Speaker 3: I think we have plenty of shared enemies, but I

1331
01:20:24,640 --> 01:20:28,320
Speaker 3: don't think we recognize them collectively. And I'm not saying

1332
01:20:28,360 --> 01:20:29,680
Speaker 3: we need to go out and invent one, but I

1333
01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:34,200
Speaker 3: do think that when we as a community see a

1334
01:20:34,320 --> 01:20:38,680
Speaker 3: threat from outside, we tend to gather around our community

1335
01:20:39,200 --> 01:20:42,040
Speaker 3: and maybe excuse some of the foibles from some of

1336
01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:45,120
Speaker 3: our members because there's this bigger thing that we're fighting.

1337
01:20:45,160 --> 01:20:46,960
Speaker 3: And I don't think that's all wrong. I don't think

1338
01:20:47,000 --> 01:20:47,639
Speaker 3: that's a bad thing.

1339
01:20:50,479 --> 01:20:56,880
Speaker 2: Okay, to your previous assertion, which is true, which is

1340
01:20:56,920 --> 01:21:00,920
Speaker 2: that we do not necessarily all know what we're trying

1341
01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:07,200
Speaker 2: to aspire towards. What should we be aspiring towards If

1342
01:21:07,240 --> 01:21:11,439
Speaker 2: you were to, you know, being one of our whether

1343
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:13,080
Speaker 2: or not you want to admit it or not, you

1344
01:21:13,160 --> 01:21:17,840
Speaker 2: are a leader in this community and a lot of

1345
01:21:17,840 --> 01:21:24,720
Speaker 2: folks look to you, what would be productive future and

1346
01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:28,240
Speaker 2: state be that we should be aspiring towards working towards

1347
01:21:28,680 --> 01:21:31,720
Speaker 2: that way as a culture could be moving in the direction.

1348
01:21:31,479 --> 01:21:36,360
Speaker 3: Of such a good question. I mean, we have got

1349
01:21:36,400 --> 01:21:43,559
Speaker 3: to be able to sustain our kind of everything, our

1350
01:21:44,280 --> 01:21:46,559
Speaker 3: ability to manage wildlife. Iink we need to be able

1351
01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:49,280
Speaker 3: to sustain our traditions that we inherited from people who

1352
01:21:49,280 --> 01:21:52,280
Speaker 3: came before us. I think we need to be and

1353
01:21:52,400 --> 01:21:55,200
Speaker 3: sustain is I think the right word. We may not

1354
01:21:55,400 --> 01:21:58,559
Speaker 3: grow it, we may not lose it, but I think

1355
01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:05,200
Speaker 3: we need to sustain and what we have in perpetuity,

1356
01:22:05,280 --> 01:22:07,200
Speaker 3: Like we need to be thinking about the things that

1357
01:22:07,240 --> 01:22:12,200
Speaker 3: we do that like that have quantit viable damage to

1358
01:22:12,280 --> 01:22:14,479
Speaker 3: our ability to keep doing this. And so when you

1359
01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:17,360
Speaker 3: talk about you know, our obligation to the community to

1360
01:22:17,439 --> 01:22:25,240
Speaker 3: call out somebody who's who's jeopardizing that or lessening that sustainability.

1361
01:22:25,240 --> 01:22:27,200
Speaker 3: I think that I think that's what we do need

1362
01:22:27,240 --> 01:22:31,400
Speaker 3: to do. I think I think we can see it.

1363
01:22:32,160 --> 01:22:34,280
Speaker 3: I'll go back to that hundred education class that I

1364
01:22:34,320 --> 01:22:37,759
Speaker 3: started this with. It's like, you know, in some ways,

1365
01:22:38,960 --> 01:22:47,000
Speaker 3: we as leaders in this community know the threats, and

1366
01:22:47,040 --> 01:22:51,599
Speaker 3: we know all the many ways that we can lose

1367
01:22:51,640 --> 01:22:54,320
Speaker 3: what we have. Those kids sitting the hundred education class

1368
01:22:54,360 --> 01:22:58,240
Speaker 3: have absolutely no idea kind of what's ahead of a good, bad,

1369
01:22:58,280 --> 01:23:01,000
Speaker 3: and indifferent, and I do think to us it's our

1370
01:23:01,120 --> 01:23:06,240
Speaker 3: job is sort of like far sears to like to

1371
01:23:06,320 --> 01:23:09,599
Speaker 3: point out that we've got problems coming up, or we've

1372
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:12,120
Speaker 3: got problems here that we've got that there are problems

1373
01:23:12,160 --> 01:23:16,160
Speaker 3: in our world. So that's kind of a clumsy way

1374
01:23:16,200 --> 01:23:20,360
Speaker 3: of saying, but I think the the ability to sustain

1375
01:23:20,600 --> 01:23:23,080
Speaker 3: our traditions is probably the better, the best way to

1376
01:23:23,080 --> 01:23:28,280
Speaker 3: put it, because I do think they are uniquely ours.

1377
01:23:29,680 --> 01:23:33,120
Speaker 3: Think every generation has had this obligation, but ours just

1378
01:23:33,160 --> 01:23:35,080
Speaker 3: feel a little bit more on the surface and a

1379
01:23:35,080 --> 01:23:37,719
Speaker 3: little bit more the threats are a little bit nearer

1380
01:23:37,800 --> 01:23:38,240
Speaker 3: at hand.

1381
01:23:38,880 --> 01:23:43,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, So if there was one final.

1382
01:23:44,840 --> 01:23:47,880
Speaker 2: Thought you want to leave folks with when it comes

1383
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:50,400
Speaker 2: to this overarching discussion of where we are as a

1384
01:23:50,479 --> 01:23:53,160
Speaker 2: hunting culture. Is there anything we haven't touched on, or

1385
01:23:53,240 --> 01:23:56,040
Speaker 2: anything that you would like to just circle back to

1386
01:23:56,080 --> 01:23:59,439
Speaker 2: and put a pin on for folks as we leave today,

1387
01:23:59,200 --> 01:24:02,200
Speaker 2: any thing you want to make sure that we keep

1388
01:24:02,240 --> 01:24:03,160
Speaker 2: in mind moving forward.

1389
01:24:04,320 --> 01:24:07,040
Speaker 3: I think it really does come back to that, like

1390
01:24:09,439 --> 01:24:14,800
Speaker 3: talk to people, like be a member of a community,

1391
01:24:17,000 --> 01:24:20,280
Speaker 3: whether that's getting to know what your neighbor's needs are

1392
01:24:20,600 --> 01:24:29,439
Speaker 3: or the values of your church or I think that's

1393
01:24:29,479 --> 01:24:31,360
Speaker 3: what we've lost in so many ways, and that's what

1394
01:24:31,400 --> 01:24:34,800
Speaker 3: social media is attempting to sort of fill, is this

1395
01:24:35,000 --> 01:24:39,000
Speaker 3: like ability to communicate with each other, and it's doing

1396
01:24:39,040 --> 01:24:44,000
Speaker 3: it so ineffectively, but just the yeah, the ability to

1397
01:24:44,120 --> 01:24:48,880
Speaker 3: like talk to people is like a lost art these days,

1398
01:24:48,960 --> 01:24:51,080
Speaker 3: and it's I see it in myself. It's so much

1399
01:24:51,120 --> 01:24:54,240
Speaker 3: easier just to hide behind a screen and like email somebody.

1400
01:24:54,280 --> 01:24:57,599
Speaker 3: But I don't think you really get at those sort

1401
01:24:57,600 --> 01:25:01,439
Speaker 3: of intersections of shared values. And even in a small

1402
01:25:01,439 --> 01:25:05,960
Speaker 3: town in rural Montana, I see we we talk beyond

1403
01:25:06,000 --> 01:25:09,400
Speaker 3: each other kind of constantly. But I think there's so

1404
01:25:09,520 --> 01:25:11,680
Speaker 3: much at stake there, whether it's hunting access that you

1405
01:25:11,720 --> 01:25:14,840
Speaker 3: are granted by your neighbor, whether it's understanding you know

1406
01:25:17,680 --> 01:25:20,760
Speaker 3: that their appreciation for you in the community. It's that

1407
01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:24,440
Speaker 3: feedback loop that we are getting. And we're now accustomed

1408
01:25:24,439 --> 01:25:26,960
Speaker 3: to getting those sort of quick, caffeinated hits from social media,

1409
01:25:27,000 --> 01:25:29,760
Speaker 3: but boy, the satisfying ones are what you're you and

1410
01:25:29,800 --> 01:25:32,840
Speaker 3: I are talking about. It is like pushing pause, taking

1411
01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:35,360
Speaker 3: time to put things in context and then communicating them.

1412
01:25:35,680 --> 01:25:35,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1413
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:39,920
Speaker 3: Wow, that's a really should be pithy, right, should be

1414
01:25:39,960 --> 01:25:41,600
Speaker 3: like right on point. That one was a little bit

1415
01:25:41,640 --> 01:25:42,600
Speaker 3: of like a tombstone.

1416
01:25:43,320 --> 01:25:47,240
Speaker 2: No, but it rings. It rings very true. There's there's

1417
01:25:47,280 --> 01:25:50,280
Speaker 2: a lot, a lot of truth to that. And uh man,

1418
01:25:50,320 --> 01:25:51,599
Speaker 2: that's the kind of thing we need more than ever

1419
01:25:51,680 --> 01:25:56,680
Speaker 2: these days. Andrew, thank you so much for doing this,

1420
01:25:56,760 --> 01:25:58,760
Speaker 2: for for sharing your thoughts on all this, for just

1421
01:25:58,840 --> 01:26:01,960
Speaker 2: catching up a little bit. I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed this.

1422
01:26:04,080 --> 01:26:07,599
Speaker 2: Outdoor life dot com is that the best place folks

1423
01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:09,960
Speaker 2: should be heading to find any of your work? Is

1424
01:26:10,000 --> 01:26:12,599
Speaker 2: there anything in particular you want folks to be keeping

1425
01:26:12,600 --> 01:26:14,479
Speaker 2: an eye out an article or a piece of work

1426
01:26:14,479 --> 01:26:17,720
Speaker 2: that you're particularly excited about.

1427
01:26:18,080 --> 01:26:21,720
Speaker 3: That's a great question. No, just go you know, I'm

1428
01:26:21,800 --> 01:26:24,639
Speaker 3: all over the place, so yeah, if not there elsewhere.

1429
01:26:24,640 --> 01:26:26,519
Speaker 3: But outdoor Life is kind of my homeland and it's

1430
01:26:26,560 --> 01:26:29,120
Speaker 3: a it has been for a long time, and it's

1431
01:26:29,160 --> 01:26:32,600
Speaker 3: it's a great venue for actually to have extensions of

1432
01:26:32,680 --> 01:26:33,800
Speaker 3: just what you and I have talked about.

1433
01:26:33,840 --> 01:26:38,599
Speaker 2: So yeah, thanks, Well, like I said earlier, your your

1434
01:26:38,720 --> 01:26:43,360
Speaker 2: your archive with outdoor Life is uh, it stands stands

1435
01:26:43,360 --> 01:26:44,960
Speaker 2: at the very top of the top of the top.

1436
01:26:45,040 --> 01:26:47,040
Speaker 2: There's a lot, a lot of great work there that

1437
01:26:47,080 --> 01:26:50,240
Speaker 2: I've thoroughly enjoyed. And if you guys have any extra

1438
01:26:50,280 --> 01:26:52,040
Speaker 2: time in your hands after this, just go to outdoor

1439
01:26:52,080 --> 01:26:55,559
Speaker 2: life dot com click on Andrew's author name and you'll

1440
01:26:55,600 --> 01:26:58,800
Speaker 2: see pages and pages of articles and there's a lot

1441
01:26:58,840 --> 01:27:00,160
Speaker 2: of really.

1442
01:27:00,160 --> 01:27:01,559
Speaker 4: Good ones, so check them out.

1443
01:27:02,280 --> 01:27:04,840
Speaker 3: Thanks Mark, all.

1444
01:27:04,800 --> 01:27:07,559
Speaker 2: Right, and that's a wrap today. Thank you for being here,

1445
01:27:07,640 --> 01:27:11,519
Speaker 2: Thanks for engaging on this set of topics. Like I

1446
01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:16,000
Speaker 2: mentioned at the top, let's not stop here. Let's take

1447
01:27:16,040 --> 01:27:20,240
Speaker 2: these conversations and continue them yourself in your own life,

1448
01:27:20,320 --> 01:27:24,000
Speaker 2: chatting with your buddies, chatting with your family, chatting with friends,

1449
01:27:24,360 --> 01:27:27,439
Speaker 2: discussing these things that the idea here is not that

1450
01:27:28,400 --> 01:27:30,439
Speaker 2: me and Andrew, or me and Tony and Danner or

1451
01:27:30,439 --> 01:27:33,800
Speaker 2: anybody else are going to solve this all ourselves. We're

1452
01:27:33,880 --> 01:27:38,320
Speaker 2: just hoping to catalyze further conversations in the community. This

1453
01:27:38,400 --> 01:27:42,519
Speaker 2: is a jumping off point. You are the one. You

1454
01:27:42,600 --> 01:27:45,080
Speaker 2: and your friends and family and your community are the

1455
01:27:45,120 --> 01:27:48,400
Speaker 2: ones who will actually help determine what the future of

1456
01:27:48,400 --> 01:27:52,080
Speaker 2: our hunting community and culture looks like. So have those conversations,

1457
01:27:52,120 --> 01:27:55,160
Speaker 2: hash these things out, think about this yourself. All of

1458
01:27:55,160 --> 01:27:58,759
Speaker 2: that's going to help point us towards a more positive future.

1459
01:27:59,200 --> 01:27:59,920
Speaker 4: I appreciate you.

1460
01:28:00,040 --> 01:28:03,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm very proud to have you part of this

1461
01:28:03,080 --> 01:28:07,120
Speaker 2: community and thankful for uh for it And until next time,

1462
01:28:07,760 --> 01:28:10,320
Speaker 2: stay Wired to hunt.

1463
01:28:12,520 --> 01:28:13,400
Speaker 4: M m HM