1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:01,800 Speaker 1: The Michael Berry Show. 2 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 2: I have been looking forward to this day for quite 3 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 2: some time. It's one of the few occasions where I 4 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 2: am interviewing the author of a book and I've actually 5 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 2: read the entire book word for word. I posted on 6 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 2: Facebook page last night with I suspect an air of 7 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 2: desperation that if you were going to listen to one 8 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 2: day of our show this year, that this would be 9 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 2: the show that you should listen to. And the reason 10 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 2: is because this story is so compelling, and I'm realistic 11 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 2: enough to know that no matter how hard I push 12 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 2: this book and the story that it tells, some people 13 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 2: are not going to read it. They may buy it, 14 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 2: but they're not going to read it for whatever reason. 15 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 2: And what is on these pages and the story that 16 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,520 Speaker 2: it tells, I think needs to be heard by every 17 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: single American. We're going to talk to Cheryl Atkinson, formerly 18 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 2: of CBS, CNN, all sorts of other places, and she's 19 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 2: want to tell us her story. We're going to talk 20 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 2: about what's in this book. Welcome Cheryl. 21 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 3: Thank you. 22 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 2: It's odd being across from a broadcast professional. I feel 23 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 2: like it might be, especially because you're a TV person. 24 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 2: You're even perked up you went into anchor mode. You're 25 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 2: even sitting around. We're going to talk about Fast and Furious, 26 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 2: a story that she led on. We're going to talk 27 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 2: about Benghazi. We're going to talk about spying on US 28 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 2: citizens because she was the victim of that, and a 29 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 2: very high profile one. Before we knew the name Edward Snowden, 30 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 2: we knew that Cheryl Atkinson was being spied on. And 31 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 2: the last of the four subjects we will talk about 32 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 2: is green energy in the stories she has written there, 33 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 2: let's start with Fast and Furious, and let's start with 34 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 2: a fellow named Dodson. You were contacted by an informant 35 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 2: and it turned out he was a high ranking official 36 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 2: with the Border Patrol, and that story ended up breaking 37 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 2: what we now know as Fast and Furious. Talk us 38 00:01:59,440 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: through that. 39 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 3: It was sort of a long road. Initially, my producer 40 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 3: and I found out this story was going on because 41 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 3: someone anonymously sent us a letter that Senator Grassley had 42 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 3: written to atf alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, asking questions in 43 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 3: a way that let me know, because I'm somewhat familiar 44 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 3: with how his office works, that he had whistleblowers inside 45 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 3: the government telling him this amazing tale that federal agents 46 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 3: were actually facilitating the delivery of thousands of assault rifles 47 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 3: and other weapons into the hands of drug cartels in Mexico, 48 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 3: which sounded so far fetched, but again, knowing how whistleblowers 49 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 3: go to Senator Grassley's office and how he operates, I 50 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 3: realized he probably had internal sources telling him this and 51 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 3: that there was something to it. So from there, my 52 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 3: producer and I tried very hard to find some of 53 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 3: the whistleblowers. Grassley's office wasn't returning our calls back then, 54 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 3: and we turned to bloggers and online people that were 55 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 3: in touch with some of these federal agents, and ultimately 56 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 3: it led us to John Dodson, who worked for Alcohol 57 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 3: works still for ATF Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms as a 58 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 3: special agent, who objected to this so called gun walking 59 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,959 Speaker 3: that was being done because he told his bosses he 60 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 3: couldn't believe they were letting guns go unchecked to Mexico 61 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 3: to be used in crimes, and he would say to 62 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 3: his bosses, you know what's going to happen if one 63 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 3: of these guns kills a federal agent, that one of 64 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 3: these cartel members uses it against us or other innocent people, 65 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 3: and that's indeed what happened with Fast and Furious. Ultimately, 66 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 3: a Border Patrol agent, Brian Terry, was shot and killed 67 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 3: in December of twenty ten by illegal immigrants who were 68 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 3: armed with some of these guns that federal agents had 69 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 3: let walk. That was basically how this big story got started. 70 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 2: You right that your sources told you that quote ATFS 71 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 2: secretly enlisted the help of licensed gun dealers in Arizona 72 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,839 Speaker 2: and encouraged them to do the unthinkable. So AK forty 73 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 2: six seven types semi automatic assault rifles, fifty caliber guns 74 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 2: capable of taking down an element, an elephant, and other 75 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 2: firearms to suspected traffickers for the cartels. How did the 76 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 2: actual exchange occur? Gun dealer in Arizona has possession of 77 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 2: an AK forty seven type. I don't know what what 78 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 2: they were carrying across. How does the transfer occur? How 79 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 2: does the walk occur? 80 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 3: There are different ways. And by the way, some documents 81 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 3: now being released which I haven't fully gone through three 82 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 3: years later, indicate Dallas. Since I'm here in Texas, I'll 83 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 3: mention that Dallas was very much involved in some of 84 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 3: these gunwalking cases, as were other cities and other states. 85 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 3: But for an example would be a gun shop that 86 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 3: ATF was familiar with because ATF regulates gun shops would 87 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 3: be selling to suspicious characters that would come in with 88 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 3: a bag of cash and buy, you know, want to 89 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 3: buy twenty AK forty seven's. They call them weapons of 90 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 3: choice of the drug cartels and the gun agents. The 91 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 3: gun shops would report this to ATF as good gun 92 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 3: shop owners would do, and just give them an alert, 93 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 3: sort of a heads up, and ATF instead of saying, well, 94 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 3: let's see what we can do, it looks like these 95 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 3: are straw purchasers. Maybe sometimes they lied on their forms. 96 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,359 Speaker 3: They could have been arrested. At that point, ATF would say, 97 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 3: you know, just sell them the guns. And the gun 98 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 3: shops some of them would actually say, are you sure? 99 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 3: You know we really they even some of them made 100 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 3: objections in writing or made their concerns and writing to 101 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 3: ATF as this drew on and they worried that these 102 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 3: guns the gun shop owners were being let go or 103 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 3: let walk, and some of them worried in writing that 104 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 3: the guns, like agent John Dotson had said, would be 105 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 3: used against a federal agent. But ATF said, nope, go ahead, 106 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 3: do it instead of watching the suspects from every moment 107 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 3: that they had the gun on so that the gun 108 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 3: wouldn't go into the population. They would just let the 109 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 3: gun go, and time and time again, when these same 110 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 3: suspects would come back after they had transferred guns to 111 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 3: drug cartels, they would be allowed to buy more guns. 112 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 3: So some suspects bought hundreds and hundreds of guns over 113 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 3: the course of a year and were allowed to continue 114 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 3: to operate. 115 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 2: You say that it may be unprecedented an on camera 116 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 2: interview with a sitting federal agent criticizing a major government 117 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 2: law enforcement initiative. You got Dotson on the record. I 118 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 2: got one minute left in this segment. Tell us how 119 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 2: that first interview went. 120 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 3: It was great. I mean, he came across as very 121 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 3: honest and forthright, nervous. He came forward because in the 122 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 3: first story that I aired that had no on camera sources, 123 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 3: the federal government had said that was all lies, none 124 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 3: of it was true, and he was really in your 125 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 3: face when he did the interview. He basically looked at 126 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 3: me and looked in the camera and said, tell me, 127 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 3: now this is a lie. Now you have my name, 128 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 3: now you have my face. Tell me I didn't do 129 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 3: the things that you told me to do for the 130 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 3: past year. 131 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 2: It's fair to say we may not recognize the term 132 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 2: Fast and Furious outside the media industry, outside the Beltway, 133 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 2: if it had not been for John Dobson. 134 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 3: I think that's true. 135 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 2: More with Cheryl Atkinson coming up more about the gun 136 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 2: running the second interview, which was the groundbreaking interview that 137 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 2: made Fast and Furious a huge national issue. We'll talk 138 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 2: about that coming up. There was a NBC investigative reporter 139 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 2: who was also on the trail for Fast and Furious. 140 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: According to Cheryl Atkinson's book, she is our guest live 141 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 2: in studio. And you mentioned that that source, the sources 142 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 2: were not handled very delicately, and they, as you say, 143 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 2: pissed off the sources, and you swooped in and you 144 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 2: got James Dodson, John Dodson, And here is the exchange 145 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 2: during the second interview March fourth, twenty eleven. Cheryl Atkinson 146 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 2: says you he worked for the federal government. You were 147 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 2: intentionally letting guns go to Mexico. And he responds, yes, ma'am. 148 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 2: The agency was. I'm boots on the ground in Phoenix 149 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 2: telling you We've been doing it every day since I've 150 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 2: been here. Here I am. Tell me I did not 151 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 2: do the things that I did. Tell me, you didn't 152 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 2: order me to do the things I did. Tell me, 153 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 2: it didn't happen. Now you have a name on it, 154 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 2: you have a face to put with it. Here, I 155 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 2: am someone now tell me it didn't happen, and you 156 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 2: write fast and furious. Has just become an undeniable reality. 157 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 2: If ever there's a story that transcends politics, I think 158 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 2: surely this is the one. But on this point I'm 159 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 2: incredibly mistaken. At that moment the Obama administration begins to 160 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 2: shut you down. 161 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 3: There was, I think it's fair to say, outright panic 162 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,559 Speaker 3: inside the administration when John Dodson came forward, because they 163 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 3: were portraying all of this as false, with no names 164 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 3: behind it and lies and telling other reporters none of 165 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 3: it ever happened. And internal emails now show they were 166 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 3: delighted nobody else was picking up the story other than 167 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 3: what I was doing. By and large, at the point, 168 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 3: I think Fox probably did some. The Washington Post had, 169 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 3: I think at one time early on, done a very 170 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 3: very short couple of paragraphs, but by and large they 171 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 3: were delighted that the press was not making as big 172 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,839 Speaker 3: a deal of this story as it deserved. And when 173 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 3: John Dodson spoke on the CBS Evening News like that, 174 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 3: it just set off panic. They hardly knew what to do. 175 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 2: Tell us where those guns ended up. There's more than 176 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 2: the Brian Terry case. 177 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 3: There were thousands of guns in Fast and Furious, and 178 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 3: as I write, even though a lot of the focus 179 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 3: was on that case, understandably so, there were many other 180 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 3: cases going on in which guns were let go too, 181 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 3: So I'd say thousands and thousand, and the government has 182 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 3: tried very hard to find out. The Congress has where 183 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 3: the guns have ended up, because through tracings, the Bureau 184 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 3: of Alcohol to back when fire and gets notified if 185 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 3: a gun is recovered at a criminal event or a murder. 186 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 3: But to this day, three years later, the government will 187 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 3: not disclose to Congress where these guns are showing up. 188 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 3: I think they have no valid reason not to, but 189 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 3: they're just not doing it, kind of thumbing their nose. Still, 190 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:29,719 Speaker 3: through public reports, we are able to find out where 191 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 3: some of the guns have ended up. Guns that were 192 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 3: walked by suspects in a related case, were used in 193 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 3: the murder of an ICE agent and Immigrations and Customs 194 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 3: agent from the US who is down in Mexico. Fast 195 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 3: and furious guns were used in the torture murder of 196 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 3: the brother of the equivalent of an attorney general in Mexico. 197 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 3: Fast and furious guns were used to shoot at military 198 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 3: helicopters in Mexico. They've been used in crimes in the 199 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 3: United States. There's a pretty long list of what we 200 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 3: do know, which I've put on my website under the 201 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 3: Fast and Furious bar at Cheryl Akison dot com. 202 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 2: Which nobody can spell. 203 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 3: By the way, That's okay, it'll show up in a 204 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 3: Google search. But I think the irony is they know 205 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 3: where the guns are showing up and they won't tell us. 206 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 3: But John Dotson said in his initial interview that these guns, 207 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 3: because they can be used over and over again, will 208 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 3: be committed used to commit crimes for decades to come. 209 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 3: You know, they can murder more than one person. 210 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 2: And let me interrupt you. This sounds like something a 211 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 2: conservative talk host would say. This sounds like it's coming 212 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 2: from Rush Limbaugh, connecting the dots as not just to 213 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 2: what happened, but why. But these are the words of 214 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:49,079 Speaker 2: Cheryl Akison. A simple three step, gun control advocates could 215 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 2: have their checkmate, but how to make that happen? A 216 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: simple three step strategy could do the trick. ATF could 217 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 2: work with licensed gun dealers in a scheme to encourage 218 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 2: and monitor sales to suspicious characters and known traffickers, entering 219 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 2: the serial numbers into ATF's suspect gun database on the 220 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 2: front end, so that tracings later are easy because at 221 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 2: that point they believed they wanted them. Number two, let 222 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 2: the guns sold to these suspicious characters and known traffickers walk. 223 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 2: Number three wait sometimes an incredibly short time to crime, 224 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 2: as the weapons are recovered at crime scenes in Mexico 225 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 2: and their serial numbers easily traced back to the American origins. 226 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 2: The paradox here being that a gun control administration was 227 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 2: actually creating these crimes, if not encouraging or at least 228 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 2: permitting these crimes, so that as you say, it was 229 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 2: all a setup. 230 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 3: That is one theory, and the theory has some basis 231 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 3: in fact, because we have emails that show if this 232 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 3: is not why they conceived of Fast and Furious, it's 233 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 3: certainly something they thought of that the federal agents were using. 234 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 3: The guns being recovered in Mexico to make the case 235 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,719 Speaker 3: for greater gun control laws that they were trying to push. 236 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 3: And they weren't planning at the time to tell anybody 237 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 3: that they were sending the guns to Mexico. They were 238 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 3: just going to argue, look at all the US guns 239 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 3: sold by the bad gun shops to Mexican drug cartels 240 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 3: and traffickers, without acknowledging their own role in making those 241 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 3: guns go there. But there is traffic from emails that 242 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 3: show they wanted to use this to support something called 243 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 3: Demand Letter three, which was a push for greater gun 244 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 3: control regulations. 245 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 2: Cheryl Atkinson is our guest. The book is stonewalled you 246 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 2: right during Fast and Furious. The Obama administration has improperly 247 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 2: used its powers to ban me from the Justice Department building, 248 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 2: where it was presumed I would ask uncomfortable questions. So 249 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 2: the Justice Department spokeswoman Tracy Schmeler tells you, when you're 250 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 2: on your way over to a meeting, don't bother to come. 251 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 2: Only the regular Justice Department reporters are allowed. She tells 252 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 2: me she will not clear me through secut ready to 253 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 2: come into the building, and you point out I've been 254 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 2: on planes with presidents and their families. I have every 255 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 2: clearance there is, so they shut you out so that 256 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 2: you couldn't write about this story. 257 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 3: I think this is one of the biggest outrages that 258 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 3: we the media have allowed under this administration. They get 259 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 3: to pick and choose which they shouldn't be allowed to do, 260 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 3: what reporters cover their stories. They get to bar reporters 261 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 3: from public federal buildings if they don't want them in 262 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 3: their reporting on their story. And when that happened, I 263 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 3: went to my bureau chief at CBS and said, we 264 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 3: need to push back against this. They don't have a 265 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 3: right to keep me out of the building so that 266 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 3: they can only have friendly reporters cover their story. And 267 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 3: I just was very disappointed at the media's lack of 268 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 3: willingness to get together and do something about our rights 269 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 3: being infringed upon in this way. The bureau chief agreed 270 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 3: that that was a bad thing, but sort of shrugged 271 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 3: his shoulders and said, well, the press conference has already 272 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 3: started now, so what are we going to do? But 273 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 3: I thought that was a really outrageous. 274 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 2: We're going to get later in our conversation to the 275 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 2: spying on you individually, but I want to talk about 276 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 2: you as sort of a whistleblower on the industry or 277 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 2: someone who, as you say, says the media has lost 278 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 2: its mojo. Did you ever see yourself? I mean, you 279 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 2: were an insider, you were a star, you were on 280 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 2: CBS News. I mean, you've been a CNN. Your name 281 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 2: is household and in the industry so well respected. You 282 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 2: worked hard to gain that, And here you are today, 283 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 2: sitting here and saying that industry I loved is failing 284 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 2: the American people by selling out. It has to surprise 285 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 2: you to end up here. 286 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, I never thought that would happen. 287 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 2: He's good, But I mean at this point. 288 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 3: Well, I always fought my battles, as some reporters do 289 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 3: inside my company, for the good of what I saw 290 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 3: as my company, and for the good of journalism and 291 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 3: for the good of CBS work. I absolutely did so. 292 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 3: Anything I did and pushing back against something I saw 293 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 3: that I thought wasn't right, I did in my mind 294 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 3: for the good of CBS, for the good of journalists, 295 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 3: for the good of the public. I never thought, I guess, 296 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 3: like many whistleblowers in government and in corporations, that I 297 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 3: would end up having to go outside of CBS or 298 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 3: going outside of CBS to kind of blow the whistle 299 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 3: when my efforts seemed to just fall short inside the company, 300 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 3: and I guess in the end that's kind of what happened. 301 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 3: I do see similarities between myself and my experience and 302 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 3: the many whistleblowers that I've dealt with who are marginalized 303 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 3: inside their agency when they try to tell the truth 304 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 3: and try to change things from within and are sort 305 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 3: of punished or at least feel punished and retaliated against 306 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 3: for that, so they end up going public. 307 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: Cheryl Agison is our guest, formerly of CBS, but more 308 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 2: importantly Cheryl Atkinson dot com. Let's talk about what the 309 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 2: Obama administration started doing to you when you reported some 310 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 2: pretty serious stuff on Fast and Furious, not the least 311 00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 2: of which was keeping you out of press conferences. But 312 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 2: as you write through the course of and we'll get 313 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 2: to being Ghazi and the personal spying in a bit, 314 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,199 Speaker 2: but as you write, your own network seemed to be 315 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 2: letting you down. CBS seemed to be saying there's one 316 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 2: part I can't remember if it was this or being Gazi, 317 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 2: that one of the senior producers says, Oh, you're so 318 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 2: far out ahead of everybody else, just enough has been said, 319 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 2: leave it alone. 320 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, that was Fast and Furious. And there's a pattern 321 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 3: that I described the last couple of years in CBS, 322 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 3: which did not take place the previous twenty or so, 323 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 3: but there were some new managers in charge of broadcasts, 324 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 3: and they would assign me to stories or accept a 325 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 3: good story like Fast and Furious, and be very enthusiastic 326 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 3: at first, you know, we want more of that. That's fantastic. 327 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 3: And then when these pushback campaigns would start by the 328 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 3: administration or whatever corporation was involved, whoever it may be, 329 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 3: pushback campaigns that are increasingly sophisticated and powerful and well 330 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 3: funded and surreptitious. In many cases, it seemed as though 331 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 3: to me the managers would would succumb to those because suddenly, 332 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 3: as I described, the light switch would go off on 333 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 3: a story they liked yesterday. Suddenly they acted like I 334 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 3: was a troublemaker. My producer and I for continuing to 335 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 3: cover the story as it developed and got more and 336 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 3: more important. 337 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 2: You tell the story. I think it's later on Benghazi, 338 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 2: but it seems to be true as a pattern of 339 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:23,439 Speaker 2: j Krney calling your bosses, the news directors and the 340 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 2: bureau chiefs, and it's sort of they're working these parallel 341 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 2: tracks using the exact same language, so it was clearly coordinated. 342 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 2: And I guess that's their job to spend. So I'm 343 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 2: not mad at them for trying to spend every boss 344 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 2: of yours that you're off track and going after them 345 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 2: and not being fair, but that CBS or any network 346 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 2: would allow that had to disappoint you, and it infuriates me. 347 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 3: I think CBS could have done a better job at 348 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 3: You do have to listen to people who complain about stories, 349 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 3: but I feel like by being overly receptive to this 350 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 3: sort of ridiculous pushback that sometimes had no merit at all, 351 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 3: it encouraged more of it to occur. And I can't 352 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,400 Speaker 3: say CBS is the only place where that was happening, 353 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 3: because I've spoken to my colleagues there was relentless phone calling, 354 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 3: emails pressure from this White House. They have been more aggressive, 355 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 3: I think, at least in the experience of the journals 356 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 3: I've spoken to, than other administrations in this sort of pushback, 357 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 3: because I think they know it leads to or hope 358 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 3: it leads to a sort of self censorship because they 359 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 3: provide so much headache and pushback to any story that 360 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 3: they perceive as negative that maybe they figure you won't 361 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 3: do the next one. 362 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 2: There's no headache unless you care about their opinion. And 363 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 2: I'm hearing you tell a story of CBS executives wanting 364 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 2: the approval of Jay Carney and the President. 365 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 3: I think to some degree, yes, they would much rather 366 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 3: be padded on the back. It's a more pleasant experience 367 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,120 Speaker 3: to be told you did a great story and you're 368 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 3: going to get that next big interview from the administration, 369 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 3: rather than kind of yelled at and argued at all 370 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 3: the time. 371 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 2: Let's talk about media matters. Chryl atkis and is our guest. 372 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 2: The book is stonewalled, you say, but it's not journalism, 373 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 2: and it's not how I operate. It's not that I 374 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 2: mind getting the idea, and you tell about these ideas 375 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 2: that are handed to you. And then, all of a sudden, 376 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 2: when you won't do what Media Matters wants, you write. 377 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 2: When I prove to be non compliant and continue covering 378 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 2: stories considered potentially damaging to the Obama administration, media Matters 379 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 2: will strike me from their list of valuable media contacts 380 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 2: and make me a target of their aggressive campaign to 381 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 2: smear and controversialize with false information. If one were to 382 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,360 Speaker 2: believe the Liberal blog. In an overnight transformation, I went 383 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 2: from being a trusted journalist whom they wanted on their 384 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 2: side to a shoddy reporter. Fortunately few are swayed by 385 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 2: their narrative, well as we know some are. Were you 386 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 2: surprised by these attacks? You were, all of a sudden 387 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 2: a bad person. You were Sheryl Akison, consummate insider, and 388 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 2: now you were some sort of a spy for Fox. 389 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 3: I wasn't surprised because this is how as I described 390 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 3: in the book, these are these propaganda operations that are 391 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 3: now employed by Media Matters works on behalf of the 392 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 3: Obama administration in Hillary Clinton, So it kind of made 393 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 3: sense they would do that. I think what surprised me 394 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 3: is even though CBS was pretty good on its face 395 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 3: at not succumbing to that or acting like it mattered. 396 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 3: I think it did matter a little bit. Again, they 397 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 3: just don't like the social media campaigns that come forward 398 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,199 Speaker 3: after Media Matters puts forth it's propaganda. Then there are 399 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 3: quasi news media that pick up Media Matters propaganda, and 400 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 3: pretty soon, if you really can't turn a ten ear 401 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 3: to that sort of thing. It would bother you, and 402 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 3: I think it did bother some people at CBS. 403 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 2: There was a data dump on election day of Fast 404 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 2: and Furious documents. There have been many who theorize that 405 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 2: Eric Holder is leaving the AG's office so that they 406 00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 2: can ensure that someone comes in afterwards to clean up. 407 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 2: Do you think he was involved with Fast and Furious? 408 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 3: I think, whatever the truth is, he should have been. 409 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,400 Speaker 3: Let's let's take him at face value when he says 410 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 3: he didn't read his briefings, which in of itself I 411 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 3: think is its own scandal that the news media didn't 412 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 3: seem to care about. But let's take him at face 413 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 3: value that he didn't know. He certainly should have known 414 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 3: that agents under the Department of Justice were involved in 415 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 3: an international cross border operation to arm Mexican drug cartels 416 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 3: over a course of more than a year, in many 417 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 3: operations involving not just ATF but the IRS was involved, 418 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 3: the DEA was involved. 419 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 2: As an individual. Do you believe that he knew? 420 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 3: I would say right now, I think he did not know, 421 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 3: did not have a firm grip on the details of 422 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 3: it until late in the game. 423 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 2: Then why not step forward and prove that. 424 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 3: I would say he he would say he has. He's 425 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 3: testified he didn't read his briefings. He testified that even 426 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 3: if he had read his briefings, the briefings didn't contain 427 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 3: that kind of detail. The whole that exists in his defense, however, 428 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 3: is the fact that we don't have all the documents 429 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 3: and testimony because the President of the United States stepped 430 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 3: in to withhold it from us. So we don't know 431 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 3: for sure a lot of the answers because they've stepped 432 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 3: in to keep us from getting them, and we can 433 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 3: only wonder what's in those documents that they haven't turned over. 434 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 2: We're going to move to bing Ghazi. But it was 435 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 2: on fast and furious. Let me read this. Let me 436 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 2: read your line back to you. Perhaps the Justice Department's 437 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 2: biggest blunder was its February fourth, twenty eleven letter to Congress, 438 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 2: which falsely stated that ATF does not let guns walk, specifically, 439 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 2: Holder's assistant attorney general, his assistant Attorney general. Oh my goodness, 440 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 2: I've misspaid wrong page. Here we go, next page. As 441 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 2: I continue to push for CBS to cover ongoing developments, 442 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 2: one broadcast producer tells me, quote The thing is, you've 443 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 2: done such a great job covering the story. You were 444 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 2: so far ahead of everyone else. You've reported everything. There's 445 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 2: really nothing left to say. And you add, in fact, 446 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 2: we've barely begun to peek through the door. Did you 447 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 2: get the sense that they were quashing your story or 448 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 2: they just were unaccustomed to breaking this kind of negative news. 449 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 3: No, they were accustomed to the stories I'd been doing 450 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 3: for twenty years, whether it was perceived a target a 451 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 3: corporation or a charity or the Bush administration. Well, I 452 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 3: had done some Obama related stories, and they were again 453 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 3: receptive initially to a lot of these stories. But then 454 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 3: you know, the lights which would go off. That's all 455 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 3: I can say. And I could tell when it happened. 456 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 3: My producer and I would look at each other and think, 457 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 3: oh my gosh, because Fast and Furious had only just begun. 458 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,640 Speaker 3: And how can a manager declare a story over without 459 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 3: even asking me what's left to report? They didn't even 460 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 3: ask brief me on what. You don't report everything you 461 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:03,879 Speaker 3: know the second you know it. There's a lot of 462 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 3: developing information, and just they simply declared the story over 463 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,959 Speaker 3: when we were getting that incredible pushback and we got 464 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 3: the pushback as the story. We kind of thought initially 465 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 3: it was a local Phoenix atf story, had no idea 466 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 3: it was going to lead to the Department of Justice 467 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 3: and White House executive privilege. But as it started to 468 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 3: go in that direction, that's when they lost interest, and 469 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 3: we were familiar with that pattern by then. 470 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 2: Let's talk about being Ghazi, how you got involved in 471 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 2: that case in that story. 472 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 3: I wasn't interested in Benghazi initially because if a story's 473 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 3: being well covered by everybody else, I'm trying to do 474 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 3: to uncover facts other people aren't covering, or cover stories 475 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 3: other people aren't covering. So I wasn't really paying a 476 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 3: lot of attention to it. But about three weeks and 477 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 3: CBS asked me to see what I could find out 478 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 3: because there was a perception that there was more to 479 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 3: it than perhaps was being covered by a lot of 480 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,120 Speaker 3: the media. So I dove in about three weeks into 481 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 3: it and immediately saw a lot of inconsistencies and warning signs, 482 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 3: the kind of signals you get when simple questions won't 483 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 3: aren't answered by authorities that they should answer, when public 484 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 3: information is being withheld, when there are contradictory statements so 485 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 3: I dived in. 486 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 2: Let's talk about an exchange. This is the opening of 487 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 2: chapter four of the book Stonewalled. You write under the 488 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 2: heading Benghazi The Unanswered Questions. It's July twenty nine, twenty thirteen. 489 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 2: I'm out somewhere in northern Virginia leading my private life 490 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 2: when a US Special Forces officer approaches me unsolicited. We 491 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 2: were ready, he tells me quietly, with no preface, no 492 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 2: drama in his voice. He assumes I know what he's 493 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 2: referring to, and I do. I've been approached the same 494 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 2: way on a regular basis since I began covering the 495 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:53,959 Speaker 2: September eleventh, twenty twelve, terrorist attacks on Americans in Benghazi, Libya, Libya, 496 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 2: approached by men affiliated with the secretive world of military 497 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 2: special ops, men who know firsthand the ability and capabilities 498 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 2: of our elite teams and in extremist forces, so called 499 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 2: Tier one assets. They speak to me about the lack 500 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 2: of an outside military rescue attempt, as several dozen Americans 501 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,640 Speaker 2: were trapped under attack at a CIA NX. So when 502 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 2: he says, we were ready, what's the story there? 503 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 3: The story is, according to insiders, and that I really 504 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 3: can't name, and that can't speak publicly that there were 505 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 3: assets in the area, there were things that could have 506 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 3: been done, there were forces who were stopped from going, 507 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,360 Speaker 3: even if the words stand down weren't necessarily used, and 508 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 3: that they're universally appalled that the night that was uniquely 509 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 3: I guess designed in some ways as the type of 510 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 3: thing our special forces are trained to respond to. That 511 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 3: they were kept away and they're bitter over that to 512 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 3: this day because they feel as though, you know, when 513 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 3: it was said the fog of war was too dangerous 514 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 3: to send our guys in, we didn't really know what 515 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 3: was going on. The guys say, that's exactly what we're 516 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 3: trained for. You never know exactly what's going on. There's 517 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,719 Speaker 3: always a fog of war. So they feel very strongly 518 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 3: about that. 519 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 2: But these sources are unnamed, unseen, we're left to trust you. 520 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 3: Well, I didn't report based on those sources. That's just 521 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 3: what led me to know there was more to the story. 522 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 3: So that's what kept me digging for the facts. I 523 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 3: can't take a lot of unnamed information and do a 524 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 3: news story in the CBS News based on that, especially 525 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 3: if people can't go on camera. But that's the type 526 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 3: of thing you find out behind the scenes that tells 527 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 3: you there is a story here. So with that information, 528 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 3: I was able to move forward and prove some of 529 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 3: what they were saying was true. And I did report 530 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 3: that early on about the idea of what rescue attempts 531 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 3: could have been made. Some of that, although the government 532 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 3: denied it has now been admitted and acknowledged in closed 533 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 3: hearings by military officials. It was set at one point, oh, 534 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 3: there were no assets in the area. Of course, there 535 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 3: were assets in the area, and they've now acknowledged we, yes, 536 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 3: we had some things we could have done, we decided 537 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 3: not to do. And you know, they admitted there were 538 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 3: They said there were reasons they decided not to use 539 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 3: certain assets, but they've acknowledged there were some assets. 540 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 2: We're going to talk about Benghazi, what Cheryl Atkinson learned, 541 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 2: where we are today, recent developments with a House committee 542 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 2: making a statement on that issue, who was involved, what 543 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 2: she thinks happened, and more coming up. 544 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: If you liked the Michael Berry Show and podcast, please 545 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: tell one friend, and if you're so inclined, write a 546 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: nice review of our podcast, Comments, suggestions, questions, and interest 547 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: in being a corporate sponsor and partner can be communicated 548 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: directly to the show at our email address, Michael at 549 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: Michael Berryshow dot com, or simply by clicking on our website, 550 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: Michael Berryshow dot com. The Michael Berry Show and Podcast 551 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: is produced by Ramon Roeblis, The King of Ding. Executive 552 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: producer is Chad Knakanishi. Jim Mudd is the creative director. 553 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: Voices Jingles, Tomfoolery and Shenanigans are provided by Chance McLean. 554 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: Director of Research is Sandy Peterson. Emily Bull is our 555 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: assistant listener and superfan. Contributions are appreciated and often incorporated 556 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: into our production. Where possible, we give credit, where not, 557 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: we take all the credit for ourselves. God bless the 558 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: memory of Rush Limbaugh. Long live Elvis, be a simple 559 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: man like Leonard Skinnard told you, and God bless America. Finally, 560 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: a veteran suffering from PTSD call Camp Hope at eight 561 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: seven seven seven one seven PTSD and a combat veteran 562 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: will answer the phone to provide free counseling.