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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, Welcome back to another week of Wide Open.

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Speaker 2: Today.

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Speaker 1: I am so excited to talk to the brilliant, incredible

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Speaker 1: human who I am lucky to know and who I

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Speaker 1: have met along my journey as a professional athlete, Adam Grant.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Wide Open. How are you?

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Speaker 3: Thanks, Ashlan. It's a lot of pressure. They're we'll see

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Speaker 3: how this goes.

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Speaker 1: You're, you know, professor, and you're a family man and

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Speaker 1: a father. You're just ticking so many boxes. I don't

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Speaker 1: know how you do it, so please tell.

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Speaker 2: Me your secrets.

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Speaker 4: Well, you're too kind, Ashland. I think. I mean.

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Speaker 3: The short answer is, when you get cut from the

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Speaker 3: ninth grade soccer team, you have to find something else

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Speaker 3: to try to excel at. So I've played ten years

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Speaker 3: of soccer. I think I was barely good enough to

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Speaker 3: be a travel team in middle school, but not good

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Speaker 3: enough to make my high school team. And when that

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Speaker 3: door closed, I sort of started barging through others and

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Speaker 3: have been doing that ever since.

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Speaker 2: I love it.

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Speaker 1: I love it, and I know this is so interesting

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Speaker 1: because you know, I have kept up with you for

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Speaker 1: so many years. I really have enjoyed our time together

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Speaker 1: when I was a player and your work that you know,

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Speaker 1: we're all so lucky you choose to show up and

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Speaker 1: share with everyone. But I want to know more about you.

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Speaker 1: I want to know more about the young Adam growing

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Speaker 1: up in the suburbs of Detroit. I'm interested to know who.

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Speaker 2: Adam was as a little boy.

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Speaker 1: Who was you know, a swimmer, a basketball player, you know,

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Speaker 1: a creative thought provoker who asked a bunch of questions,

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Speaker 1: who lived life through I mean, you're a data nerd,

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Speaker 1: which I love about you because I like, for me,

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Speaker 1: if I don't see the numbers and I don't have

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Speaker 1: the fact, it's hard for me to buy in.

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Speaker 2: I gotta be honest.

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Speaker 1: So I love the way you think, but I want

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Speaker 1: to know why you are who you are and what

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Speaker 1: was the process like?

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Speaker 3: All right, So I think I think the place to

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Speaker 3: start was, Yeah, I was definitely obsessed with sports as

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Speaker 3: a kid. I loved soccer and basketball especially, and as

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Speaker 3: I guess, at some point in middle school, my friends

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Speaker 3: and I started a fantasy basketball and football league, and

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Speaker 3: I thought it was going to be a fun opportunity

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Speaker 3: to talk more about sports, and instead they just made

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Speaker 3: fun of me the whole time, calling me mister facts.

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Speaker 4: It's brutal.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this happened when we were trading sports cards too, Like,

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Speaker 3: you know, I'd start to argue about what were fair

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Speaker 3: terms for a deal and they would say, shut up,

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Speaker 3: mister facts. So I was a pretty nerdy kid, and

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Speaker 3: I definitely loved I loved data, and I loved challenging myself.

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Speaker 3: And I think two things happened that piqued my interest

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Speaker 3: early in psychology. One was I started coaching my younger

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Speaker 3: sister's soccer team, and I had to try to figure

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Speaker 3: out how to motivate her teammates and get kids who

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Speaker 3: were you know, all swarming toward the ball at the

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Speaker 3: same time, to try to coordinate and think about playing

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Speaker 3: a position. And that was fun and it was a

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Speaker 3: really interesting challenge. And then I when I got cut

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Speaker 3: from the soccer team to start high school, I went

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Speaker 3: all in on springboard diving, and diving was a sport

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Speaker 3: that just it forced me to get deeper into psychology

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Speaker 3: because I had to figure out, how do I overcome

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Speaker 3: my fear of heights, how do I motivate myself to

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Speaker 3: to try dives that I think are outside of my

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Speaker 3: ability level and I'm probably going to end up doing

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Speaker 3: a belly flop or a backsmack. And then I started

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Speaker 3: coaching diving too and had to motivate other divers, you know,

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Speaker 3: in similar situations. And so I think those experiences of

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Speaker 3: you know, of both diving and then coaching diving in soccer,

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Speaker 3: just they made me fascinated by psychology and I wanted

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Speaker 3: to understand what makes us take better and how I

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Speaker 3: can help other people bring out the best in themselves.

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Speaker 3: And that I think planet enough seeds for the career

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Speaker 3: that I have today that I really couldn't think of

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Speaker 3: doing anything else.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Wow, it's you know, it makes me think because I

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Speaker 1: fall on your every word, which I love because it's

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Speaker 1: so so digestible, but also because I relate, I understand.

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Speaker 1: I think as kids, you learn so much in the

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Speaker 1: process of understanding why you asked the questions you did.

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Speaker 1: But did it come from your parents? Did a part

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Speaker 1: of that upbringing like that secret sauce people talk about,

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Speaker 1: did you inherit that from learning things about your parents?

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Speaker 4: For sure?

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Speaker 3: I found out actually after I declared psychology as a

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Speaker 3: major in college, that both of my parents had studied

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Speaker 3: psychology in college.

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Speaker 4: And I didn't know.

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Speaker 3: Wow, I should have known because terms like self feeling prophecy,

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Speaker 3: we're turned around in my household like that was that

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Speaker 3: was normal dialogue. But I didn't realize that was you know,

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Speaker 3: that was a term that came out of social science,

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Speaker 3: and I think they were because they were a lawyer

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Speaker 3: and a teacher. It never really came up, and I

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Speaker 3: think that you know that definitely. I think sparked some

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Speaker 3: kind of both curiosity and also like a sense of familiarity.

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Speaker 4: When I started studying these topics, I was.

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Speaker 3: Like, wait that, I know that I've already heard about that,

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Speaker 3: But enough about me. I want to talk more about you,

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Speaker 3: because I think when we first met, I was struck

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Speaker 3: by this strange duality I guess, and maybe the strange

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Speaker 3: is the wrong word for it, but it was. It

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Speaker 3: was an unusual attention for me. Between you came across

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Speaker 3: as both very chill and also extremely intense.

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Speaker 4: I get that a lot, do you, because normally I.

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Speaker 3: Think about these two things as opposite, and you managed

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Speaker 3: to exude both of them, and I wanted to know

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Speaker 3: where that came from.

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Speaker 1: Wow, you're the first person that's really asked me that

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Speaker 1: I and I can't wait to unpack this with you

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Speaker 1: and like I'm int a really weird process in my

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Speaker 1: life where I'm unpacking who I was as a professional

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Speaker 1: athlete and how I've closed that door, and how it

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Speaker 1: serves me as a partner, as a mom, as a

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Speaker 1: leader outside of sport, and also rethinking the way sport

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Speaker 1: made me such a great athlete but maybe not such

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Speaker 1: a great mom and partner. I was on this pursuit

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Speaker 1: of greatness, and it was weird for me because I

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Speaker 1: wanted to be great at everything I did, and it

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Speaker 1: wasn't something I could just drop when I walked into

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Speaker 1: my house.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to be the best at.

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Speaker 1: Everything, and it really left me disappointed a lot, and

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Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily serve me as a mom. The intensity

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Speaker 1: part you talk about, this overwhelming passion to be the

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Speaker 1: best at everything I do doesn't always serve me well

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Speaker 1: in my personal life, and I'm really trying to unpack

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Speaker 1: what being an athlete has taught me, the pain, the toughness,

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Speaker 1: the discipline.

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Speaker 2: But in the.

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Speaker 1: Business world, in motherhood, I'm learning vulnerability, flexibility, adapting to

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Speaker 1: all circumstances. So I really took pride in giving my

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Speaker 1: energy and lending it to the people around me to

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Speaker 1: serve them. But I was fucking intense because I at

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Speaker 1: the end of the day, I wanted to win, and

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Speaker 1: I wanted to win at all costs, and most people

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Speaker 1: don't tick like that in the real world, and I'm

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Speaker 1: learning in real time.

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Speaker 3: I think this is one of the hardest things about

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Speaker 3: transitioning from elite sports to other careers and also frankly

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Speaker 3: to home life.

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Speaker 4: You know, as a partner and a.

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Speaker 3: Parent, because in sports, the goal is so clear and

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Speaker 3: you know at the end of the day, no one

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Speaker 3: has to tell you whether you succeeded or failed, right,

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Speaker 3: you get immediate feedback just from playing. The result is

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Speaker 3: like it's immediately visible. And then in your job you

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Speaker 3: don't really know if you're doing great. And it's even

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Speaker 3: more ambiguous at home. And I think, like when you

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Speaker 3: talk about wanting to be the best, there's no such

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Speaker 3: thing as a best parent or a best partner or

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Speaker 3: a best boss. You might know if you're if you're

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Speaker 3: horrible at those things, But am I doing great or good?

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Speaker 3: Am I better today than I was yesterday? It's so unclear.

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Speaker 3: And as a much less elite athlete than you, I

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Speaker 3: found that transition frustrating and reminds me a little bit

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Speaker 3: of some research that Barry Schwartz and she and Jenger

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Speaker 3: did where uh, they looked at the differences between people

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Speaker 3: who are maximizers and satisficers.

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Speaker 4: You come across this work before, yes, yes.

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Speaker 3: So for but for anyone who doesn't know. Basically, a

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Speaker 3: maximizer is somebody who's always aiming for the best. You

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Speaker 3: want the best score on a test. You want the

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Speaker 3: best job. You want to find the best apartment to

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Speaker 3: live in, you want to choose the best city. You

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Speaker 3: want to marry the best person. And satisficers are not

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Speaker 3: looking for the best, They're looking for the best fit.

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Speaker 3: So that often means like the job that's good enough

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Speaker 3: for me, the partner that's the right match for me.

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Speaker 3: And when I was listening to you, Ashley, and I

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Speaker 3: was hearing like, maximizer, maximizer, I want to win, I

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Speaker 3: want to be the best. And the reality is that

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Speaker 3: in the data, maximizers.

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Speaker 4: Do better, but they tend to feel worse. Yep, and

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Speaker 4: you probably live that.

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Speaker 3: There's this Okay, I aim extremely high and I get

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Speaker 3: better results, but at the end of the day, I'm

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Speaker 3: always comparing what I got to what I wanted, and

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Speaker 3: oftentimes there's a gap there and if my performance fell

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Speaker 3: short of my potential or my objective, then I'm going

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Speaker 3: to be disappointed. And I wonder how much of that

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Speaker 3: you experience.

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Speaker 2: Now, Yeah, I think I do.

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Speaker 1: I really think comparison is the death of creativity, and

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Speaker 1: I really and confidence And it's so easy in this landscape,

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Speaker 1: in the way I've been brought up in sports, in

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Speaker 1: this pursuit of perfection, I'm never happy with myself. But

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Speaker 1: even when I win, I can't sit in it for

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Speaker 1: very long because my mindset is always what's next, what's next,

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Speaker 1: What's next. And Adam, I got to be really honest,

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Speaker 1: like I feel more at ease and suffering because of this,

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Speaker 1: because of this pursuit of excellence, And at some point

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Speaker 1: you kind of just have to like drop the bucket

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Speaker 1: and realize every day I'm trying to be the best

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Speaker 1: version of me, and no one's harder on me than

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Speaker 1: me as an athlete, as a mom, well.

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Speaker 3: As I hear you talk about what's next, what's next,

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Speaker 3: what's next. This is also in some way as a

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Speaker 3: curse of American culture. We're one of the most future

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Speaker 3: focused countries on Earth, and there are other cultures that

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Speaker 3: are more present or past focused. So I was I

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Speaker 3: was thinking about the Nike just do it slogan, and

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Speaker 3: if Nike had been founded in a more past focused

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Speaker 3: culture like Germany, I think their slogan would have been.

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Speaker 4: Just did it.

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Speaker 3: Oh, because there's actually research on this that if you

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Speaker 3: look at Americans happiness, your happiness depends more on how

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Speaker 3: you think you're going to do tomorrow than how.

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Speaker 4: You did yesterday.

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Speaker 3: In Germany, that flips, your happiness is less dependent on

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Speaker 3: how you think you're going to do tomorrow than whether

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Speaker 3: you're satisfied with how things went yesterday. And I think

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Speaker 3: the being future focused is great for raising the bar

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Speaker 3: and you know, and hitting goals and achieving success, it's

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Speaker 3: not so great for day to day happiness. And so

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Speaker 3: I think that ability to savor the things that went

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Speaker 3: well for you last year or last week is pretty important.

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Speaker 3: And it's not a skill that you get taught in

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Speaker 3: sports at all.

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Speaker 2: Stay tuned, we'll be right back after this. How do

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Speaker 2: you you know?

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Speaker 1: Because you show up so much and give so much

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Speaker 1: perspective with teams, with you know, different clients who are

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Speaker 1: what I consider the most successful high achievers out there.

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Speaker 1: How how do you function in your own space? Like,

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Speaker 1: do you ever feel like you're failing? Do you ever

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Speaker 1: feel like you're not living up to what you're preaching

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Speaker 1: to everyone? Like, like, that's stressful. It's stressful for me

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Speaker 1: for you.

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Speaker 3: Well, thank you, thank you for stressing out of my behalf.

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Speaker 3: I accept your vicarious stress, and if only I could

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Speaker 3: offload mine onto you, it would be all good. No. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I think I think I've gotten better at this over time,

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Speaker 3: in part because in teaching about it and writing about

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Speaker 3: it and podcasting about it, I've started to sort of

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Speaker 3: force myself to internalize the message that I would deliver

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Speaker 3: to others.

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Speaker 4: I think it was.

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Speaker 3: A real struggle for me when I started down this

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Speaker 3: path of I don't even know what to call it

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Speaker 3: thought leadership. A dozen years ago, I remember there were

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Speaker 3: a couple of moments where I felt like I had

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Speaker 3: utterly failed. The first one was I published my first

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Speaker 3: book and it hit number two on the New York

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Speaker 3: Times bestseller list. I should have been celebrating. Yeah, who

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Speaker 3: expects to have a New York Times bestseller? When I

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Speaker 3: started writing Give and Take, I didn't even know if

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Speaker 3: anyone other than my mom would read it. And yet, like,

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Speaker 3: once my publisher said, hey, we want to buy this book,

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Speaker 3: and you know, we think that it could make a

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Speaker 3: real impact in the world. And once I got some

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Speaker 3: early feedback that some of the concepts resonated, my expectations

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Speaker 3: started to climb and climb and climb, and so then

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Speaker 3: it was a disappointment to fall short. And then I

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Speaker 3: knew that one of the most important things I could

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Speaker 3: do to get the word out about the book was

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Speaker 3: to give a TED talk, and I got rejected by Ted.

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Speaker 3: I felt like I failed again and again I should

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Speaker 3: I should have appreciated the fact that there were incredible

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Speaker 3: people that wanted me to be on any stage and

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Speaker 3: that I had a platform to share my ideas.

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Speaker 4: But I felt like a total failure.

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Speaker 3: And it really, actually really took me, taking me about

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Speaker 3: three years to move past that. So twenty thirteen I

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Speaker 3: felt like, you know, I fell short on the book.

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Speaker 3: I failed on not getting the Ted talk. And then

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Speaker 3: in twenty sixteen, I launched my second book and a

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Speaker 3: friend called me and said, congratulations, what are you doing

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Speaker 3: to celebrate And I said nothing, like, like, I'm a writer,

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Speaker 3: what do you do? You write books? Like? This is

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Speaker 3: not a big deal, and she said, how many books

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Speaker 3: do you think you're going to write in a typical decade? Like,

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Speaker 3: of course, this is a huge milestone. You poured multiple

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Speaker 3: years of your work.

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Speaker 4: Life into this. Yeah, you have to celebrate.

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Speaker 3: And in that conversation it hit me that I was

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Speaker 3: making a mistake that I had warned my students about

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Speaker 3: over and over again at Wharton, which was like, don't

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Speaker 3: let your expectations rise with your achievements. I mean, I'd

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Speaker 3: said this so many times. I'd watched my students go

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Speaker 3: through this process where they accomplished something and then their

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Speaker 3: expectations rise and they start to take for granted what

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Speaker 3: yesterday was an extraordinary achievement. And here I was like,

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Speaker 3: I had gone from thinking, Wow, it's incredible to have

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Speaker 3: the opportunity to write a book, to Eh, I write

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Speaker 3: a book, big deal, That's what I do. And so

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Speaker 3: I realized that the best way to manage that was

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Speaker 3: to get better at rewinding the clock a little bit.

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Speaker 3: And if I was going to let my expectations rise

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Speaker 3: with my achievements, then I had to get in touch

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Speaker 3: with a former version of myself that had lower expectations.

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Speaker 3: And so I started thinking about how proud would my

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Speaker 3: younger self be of what I've achieved now? Like, let's

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Speaker 3: think back to twenty year old me that was just

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Speaker 3: excited to become a psychologist and had no idea that

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Speaker 3: I would ever have a chance to write one book,

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Speaker 3: let alone multiple books, Like, what would that version of

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Speaker 3: me think of where I am now? I would be

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Speaker 3: so proud, And so I have a responsibility to be

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Speaker 3: that proud now. And so I do this every time

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Speaker 3: I set a goal, Ashlyn, I think about, if I

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Speaker 3: achieve that goal, how proud would my younger self be?

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Speaker 3: And then that's the version of myself that I compare

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Speaker 3: my current achievement to, not what I did yesterday or

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Speaker 3: what I expected to be able to pull off tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, that is That's there's a lot of power

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Speaker 1: in that.

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Speaker 2: This is what I love about you.

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Speaker 1: Every time I'm around you or hear you talk, you

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Speaker 1: always make me think. But you also make me think

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Speaker 1: on how to better myself and how I can be

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Speaker 1: better to show up around the people I love the most,

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Speaker 1: which was you know, back when I was preparing for

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Speaker 1: the World Cup, I used to always talk about this.

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Speaker 1: It was the different types of people in the world

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Speaker 1: and how we function in groups. You know, you have

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Speaker 1: your givers, your takers, and your matchers. Why was that

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Speaker 1: the first like, why was that the first big break

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Speaker 1: in the code here where a lot of people were like,

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Speaker 1: holy smokes.

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Speaker 2: It makes you think a lot about how.

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Speaker 1: Teams click, how organizations click, how are you getting the

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Speaker 1: best out of the people around you.

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Speaker 3: Well, I had no idea when I was doing my

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Speaker 3: research on givers, takers and matches that you were going

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Speaker 3: to be thinking about these concepts after the World Cup.

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Speaker 3: And frankly, I'm worried that it might have it might

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Speaker 3: have distracted you a little bit. I'm like, I don't

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Speaker 3: know if a goalie needs to be focused on on

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Speaker 3: interaction styles in you know, in a critical moment when

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Speaker 3: when you need to be making a save. But I

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Speaker 3: think the thing that first got me interested in this

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Speaker 3: topic was I I kept I kept having experiences where

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Speaker 3: I felt like, well, actually, I mean it was it was.

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Speaker 3: It was a diving moment where I I basically all

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Speaker 3: of high school, my diving goal was to be a

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Speaker 3: state finalist, and then that was that was top twelve.

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Speaker 3: And in particular, my coach had set a goal freshman

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Speaker 3: year that I was going to be all stayed and

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Speaker 3: that would have been top six. So junior year, like,

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Speaker 3: I surprised myself and maybe him too by by making

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Speaker 3: the state finals and I finished eighth in the state

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Speaker 3: and that was That was basically two years after I'd

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Speaker 3: been the worst diver on my team, and my teammates

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Speaker 3: made fun of me, calling me Frankenstein because I was

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Speaker 3: so stiff when I walked.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I was.

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Speaker 3: I was not cut out in a lot of ways

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Speaker 3: to be a diver, but I had an amazing coach,

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Speaker 3: and I put in a lot of work and I

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Speaker 3: made more progress than I expected, certainly, And so then

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Speaker 3: I had really high hopes for senior year because I

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Speaker 3: knew more than two people were graduating, and I knew

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Speaker 3: that I was. I was going to pour every ounce

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Speaker 3: of energy I had into getting better as a diver.

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Speaker 3: And then senior year came around and I finished ninth,

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Speaker 3: like despite getting getting better, like, I performed worse. And

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Speaker 3: one of the most brutal parts of that, what for

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Speaker 3: me felt like a failure or something I'd worked for

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Speaker 3: for four years, was one of the guys who beat

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Speaker 3: me had not been a state finalist the previous year

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Speaker 3: and at diving camp, I had coached him and taught

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Speaker 3: him how to enter the water without a splash. The

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Speaker 3: one thing that I excelled at as a diver was

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Speaker 3: the rip entry, where you just disappear into the water,

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Speaker 3: and I spent just thousands of hours perfecting that entry,

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Speaker 3: and his entries were really splashy. As a gymnast, like

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Speaker 3: in gymnastics, the last thing you ever want to do

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Speaker 3: is land on your head, so he was never quite

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Speaker 3: comfortable going head first. And we were at diving camp

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Speaker 3: together and I remember, you know, saying, hey, Ryan, like,

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Speaker 3: let me show you a couple of tricks for how

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Speaker 3: to make your entries cleaner. And he beat me by

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Speaker 3: a few points and the rip entry could have made

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Speaker 3: the difference.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And I remember thinking, like, it's so frustrating that sports

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Speaker 3: is sometimes zero sump, that if I want to win,

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Speaker 3: someone else has to lose. And in that case, trying

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Speaker 3: to help Ryan get closer to winning actually cost me

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Speaker 3: a place probably, And I wondered, does it have to

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Speaker 3: be that way? Yeah, if I'd been if I'd been

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Speaker 3: in more of a pure team sport, I think it

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Speaker 3: would have been easier to help my teammates. And that

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Speaker 3: wouldn't have hurt me, but I wondered, you know, as

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Speaker 3: we move into all kinds of collaborative settings, like what

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Speaker 3: happens to people who are givers who are motivated to

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Speaker 3: I mean, my definition of a giver is pretty simple.

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Speaker 3: It's it's constantly asking what can I do for you?

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Speaker 3: When you meet other people. And I saw plenty of

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Speaker 3: people who would not have helped write and who are

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Speaker 3: takers and who wanted to know, well, what can you

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Speaker 3: do for me? And as I started studying this, I

400
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Speaker 3: realized that a lot of people will tell me, Hey,

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Speaker 3: my grandma told me there are givers in the world,

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Speaker 3: and there are takers in the world, and the giver,

403
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Speaker 3: you know, the takers might eat better, but the givers

404
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Speaker 3: sleep better. But what Grandma didn't mention is that most

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Speaker 3: people are not pure givers are takers. Most of us

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Speaker 3: we don't want to be too selfish or too generous,

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Speaker 3: and so we become matchers, which is to say, I'll

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Speaker 3: do something for you if you do something for me,

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Speaker 3: And that way, you know, I'm going to protect myself

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Speaker 3: against the takers, but I'm not going to overextend myself

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Speaker 3: like givers sometimes do. And I just thought that these

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Speaker 3: were fascinating dynamics, and I wanted to know, how can

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Speaker 3: we how can we build a world with more givers,

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Speaker 3: and how do we also build a world where givers

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Speaker 3: get to become the rising tide that lifts all boats

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Speaker 3: as opposed to you.

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Speaker 4: Know, sinking at the hands of takers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 3: So with that framework, how how did this play out

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Speaker 3: in your life as a soccer player?

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Speaker 2: I will say this and I haven't.

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Speaker 1: This is the first time because as you're talking, I'm

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Speaker 1: like unpacking this something emotional that's bumping up against a

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Speaker 1: few scars, and I think it's important to talk about

426
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Speaker 1: because it's very similar. When I got to the US team,

427
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Speaker 1: I was behind Hope solo for ten years, and then

428
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Speaker 1: when I had my moment, I to be a number one,

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Speaker 1: and I was competing and fighting for the starting position

430
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Speaker 1: with a listenaire. I didn't get it, and I had

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Speaker 1: a choice to be the best teammate to her and

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Speaker 1: the best leader I could be. From a position of

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Speaker 1: showing up and giving everything I had and knowing I

434
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Speaker 1: would never see the field. I guess what I'm trying

435
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Speaker 1: to say is what's been the hardest thing for me

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Speaker 1: as now I'm a retired athlete, and so much of

437
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Speaker 1: my worth is how I serve my community. The hardest

438
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Speaker 1: thing for me is to hear the critics say things,

439
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Speaker 1: or people say, well, you never did anything.

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Speaker 2: You never played in a World Cup.

441
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 1: I went to two, and I trained every day, didn't

442
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 1: have a day off for thirty something days to prepare

443
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 1: my team for success.

444
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 2: For Battle, I put my ego aside.

445
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: I played my role, and the days I barely thought

446
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 1: I could move, I threw myself in goal after practice,

447
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 1: and I had Kristin Press shoot on me one hundred

448
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 1: and fifty t times when my body was barely like

449
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 1: you know, it was thrashed. And I do feel that

450
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 1: so much of my worth and my accomplishments were Oh

451
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: but you never You never were a starter for the

452
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: national team. You only have twenty five thirty caps or something.

453
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because you.

454
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 2: It makes you feel so small.

455
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 1: I spent my whole career insanely successful. There was a

456
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 1: reason why I was on those teams. There's a reason

457
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 1: why those teams did so well. But yet I always

458
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 1: feel that I minimize my accomplishments and my worth because

459
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 1: I wasn't what people view as the starter or the star.

460
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 2: But my work was harder behind the scenes.

461
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 1: My work and the pressure of showing up and serving

462
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 1: other people. When I knew I wouldn't get the pat

463
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 1: on the back or the we see you, we appreciate you,

464
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 1: I just did it because that was my job to

465
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 1: show up in that role and be the best version

466
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: I could be so everyone else could be great the

467
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 1: day of the game. And sometimes I put in a

468
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 1: ball what these people say, and it holds so much

469
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 1: worth in my mind that really undermines how much and

470
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: how hard I worked to serve these teams to be successful.

471
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 3: I think that's such a travesty, and I'm glad you're

472
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 3: recognizing it now. Actually, because in psychology there's a there's

473
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 3: a term name it to tame it that I think.

474
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 3: I think that that phrase is helpful for a lot

475
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 3: of people. Right Once you can describe the trap you're

476
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 3: falling in it, it's a little bit easier to catch

477
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 3: yourself and then and then get out of it. And

478
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 3: I think in this case, one of the things that's

479
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 3: so unfortunate you aside for the fact that no one

480
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 3: ever wants to be standing in front of a Kristen

481
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 3: Press kid so let's be clear, I would not wish

482
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 3: that I were sending me but but that aside, I

483
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 3: think we at the end of the day, we're really

484
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:18,120
Speaker 3: good at measuring team success, and we're really good at

485
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 3: measuring individual metrics that that capture your own accomplishment. What

486
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 3: we fail to do is measure your contribution.

487
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 4: To the team.

488
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 3: I'm thinking like in basketball, Shane Battier was known as

489
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 3: the no stats All Star.

490
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 4: And despite the fact.

491
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 3: That they're like there weren't a lot of stats, like

492
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 3: you could if you wanted to, you could watch the

493
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,360
Speaker 3: game and count the number of times that he dove

494
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 3: for a loose ball. You could, you know, you could

495
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 3: start recording the number of hours that he was watching

496
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 3: game film to figure out, like where on the court

497
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 3: do I need to try to force Kobe Bryant to

498
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 3: go where his shooting percentage is lower? Or you know,

499
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 3: in chance case, not even watching the game film but

500
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 3: studying the stats to find you know, those those windows

501
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 3: of opportunity.

502
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: This is wide open, and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris.

503
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 2: We'll be right back.

504
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 3: I'm curious about looking back, like, how would you measure

505
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 3: whether somebody is an effective giver on the.

506
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 2: Pitch, an effective giver.

507
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, how do you know if somebody is making their

508
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 3: team better other than the obvious like okay, scores, saves, assists.

509
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think what made leaders? And you talk about

510
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: this often, so I don't want to really get this wrong,

511
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 1: but I really feel this in my heart when I

512
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 1: because I was a captain of my club team for

513
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 1: seven ten plus years, Like, I know.

514
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:58,199
Speaker 2: What it's like to be a leader.

515
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: However, in sports, I feel like we give leadership roles

516
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 1: to the people who take up the most space, the

517
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 1: loudest one. Oh yeah, the biggest stars, the loudest, which

518
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 1: gives them this type of credibility that they are the best.

519
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: What I learned from a Becky Souerbrun, what I've learned

520
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: from a listenai. What I've learned from these very very

521
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: intelligent people who don't scream and don't take up this

522
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: crazy amount of space that makes them feel that.

523
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 2: They're better or smarter than the group.

524
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: It was their ability to get the best out of

525
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: everyone around them which drove.

526
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 2: The success of the team.

527
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: It wasn't necessarily this arrogance that I'm the smartest, i

528
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 1: am the best, I'm the most SUCCESSU I'm the star.

529
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: I'm learning in real time that now I'm as I'm

530
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: sitting in work spaces with high level executives, I really

531
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: am looking around the table trying to see who's trying

532
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: to take up the most space, which to me are

533
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: usually the people who are the most unprepared, who are

534
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: the most anxious about how they view them theirself like

535
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: to even be in the role. So it's just this

536
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: really weird learning process for me. And I'm trying to

537
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: learn now in leadership roles in business to sit back

538
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: and let other people take over the room so the

539
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 1: production like everyone's productive and the creativity goes up, and

540
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 1: I don't steal the light or I don't steal the joy,

541
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: I don't steal the moment. I think now we're in now,

542
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: we're in a time where the loudest people aren't the

543
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: leaders in haptens anymore. It's who's getting the best out

544
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: of the entire unit.

545
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 3: So interesting, Yeah, I mean that if it makes me

546
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 3: think there's I mean, there's such a clear parallel between

547
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 3: sports and business in that way where I think in

548
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 3: we see the exact same dynamic in like I think

549
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 3: about Alan Benson's research that he's led on salespeople for example,

550
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 3: where like the salesperson who brings in the most revenue

551
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 3: is the most likely to get promoted to manager, that

552
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 3: that salesperson is not actually the best manager. That person's

553
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 3: good at at, you know, getting deals closed with customers

554
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 3: and clients, not necessarily at making a team of salespeople

555
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 3: more successful and empirically, if you wanted to promote the

556
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 3: best leader, it's not the person who sells the most.

557
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 3: It's the person who gives the most referrals to other

558
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 3: salespeople looking for ways to lift their teammates up as

559
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 3: a leading indicator that they're going to be great leaders.

560
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 3: And it sounds like you you saw that dynamic in

561
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 3: soccer really clearly.

562
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 4: I think I get why.

563
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 3: You know, oftentimes the captain is the star player because

564
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 3: everybody respects that person and like nobody's going to question

565
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 3: their authority when when they're the one who you know,

566
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 3: who has either the most recognition or you know, the

567
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 3: most rare and irreplaceable skills. At the same time, though,

568
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 3: that person is not always motivated and qualified to lead,

569
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 3: and the worst thing you can do is promote a

570
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 3: toxic superstar into a captain role. Or into a leadership role,

571
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 3: because then they're actually their voice is amplified and they're

572
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 3: modeling the wrong behavior. So I have to ask you, Ashlynd,

573
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 3: you you played for in college? You played for the

574
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 3: winning this coach soccer history, Anton Doorance.

575
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 2: Go heels, go heels.

576
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 3: I think a lot of people would would look at

577
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 3: that record and say, well, you could pull that off

578
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 3: just by you know, being a great recruiter, and then

579
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 3: you end up attracting a bunch of stars, and then

580
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 3: year after year everybody wants to play for the greatest

581
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 3: coach and the greatest team. I know it was more

582
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 3: than that. What did you learn from Anson about culture

583
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 3: building and about creating a team that was more than

584
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 3: the sum of its parts.

585
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 2: It was very humbling to learn from him. It was.

586
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: He had a unique gift to see people.

587
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 2: In terms of potential, and.

588
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 1: He would always say potential means shit if you're not

589
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: willing to do the work to get yourself where you imagine,

590
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: which I don't know how many people know this, but

591
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: we were ranked every single day in practice. We had

592
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: twenty three day every single day. Everything was about stats.

593
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: Everything was about numbers, and you would walk up to

594
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: training and there was a bulletin and you were ranked

595
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 1: in everything passing and moving, shooting, how many goals you

596
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: gave up, how many turnovers I mean everything, speed, how

597
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: many high level sprints you can hit, what's your mock speed?

598
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 2: I mean, from top to bottom.

599
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: But you were also ranked on how you show up,

600
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: what your character looks like, where you give her, where

601
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: you were, where you a taker.

602
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 2: So there was core values he made us.

603
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: Every class had meetings every week, and he would make

604
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: you read books and you would talk about how you

605
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: were going to be a person who shows up, which

606
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: is just as important as the player. So we had

607
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: these core values and we read books like Man Searches

608
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 1: for Meaning and all of these great things that gave

609
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: us perspective about just being a good athlete wasn't enough.

610
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: We wouldn't contribute to our society, to our small groups

611
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,919
Speaker 1: if we were assholes. That's what he used to always say,

612
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: I mean, and he really it's humbling, Adam, to sit

613
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: on a paper, to get a paper and say this

614
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 1: is what people think of you outside.

615
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 4: Of sport, and its powerful.

616
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 1: It's so powerful, and everyone's so scared to do it

617
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 1: because how they will internalize it. For me, I wanted

618
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: people don't care how much you know until they know

619
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 1: how much you care.

620
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:44,760
Speaker 2: These things were.

621
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 1: Burned in my memory of the core values we would

622
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: have to live by, and when we would warm up,

623
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: we would have to recite them, and we were graded

624
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 1: on it virtually, and it changed my whole dynamic of

625
00:34:58,280 --> 00:34:58,800
Speaker 1: my life.

626
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 3: What I think is brilliant about that is, first of all,

627
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 3: the idea that you're going to be evaluated not only

628
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,720
Speaker 3: on your confidence but also on your character. That's huge

629
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 3: because then you have to think about how do I

630
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 3: show up, how do I treat other people?

631
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 4: What's my value added here?

632
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 3: Secondly, I think what's also really powerful is I work

633
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,240
Speaker 3: with so many leaders who are afraid to give feedback

634
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 3: that often because they think they're going to stress everyone out.

635
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 3: I found the exact opposite that if you know you're

636
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,800
Speaker 3: going to be assessed every day, it starts to become

637
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 3: just a daily routine as opposed to the quarterly performance

638
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 3: review that is a tremendous amount of pressure. And so

639
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 3: the idea that we're going to do this daily means

640
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 3: that my behavior every day matters, and I have an

641
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 3: opportunity to earn a better reputation and to demonstrate my

642
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 3: character differently tomorrow than I did today. That is, I

643
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 3: means such a clear way of motivating people to think

644
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 3: about their growth on a day to day basis. If

645
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 3: it were up to me, I would rate, not rank.

646
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,280
Speaker 3: There's there's a lot of evidence that forced ranking rankings

647
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 3: can can lead people to compete with the very people

648
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 3: they're supposed to collaborate with. And so to say, hey,

649
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 3: we're a team, but I'm gonna pit you against each other.

650
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 4: I don't love that.

651
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is I think where it goes full circle. Adam, Like,

652
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: I really think that when I talk about the unlearning

653
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: or the rethinking, I carry competition into everything and it's

654
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: toxic and I have to not lose my identity that

655
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 1: makes me great. But also not this competitive fire that

656
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 1: when I walk into the room, everyone's like, this is

657
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,439
Speaker 1: this is she takes too much? She put it makes

658
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 1: me uncomfortable, this winning competitive fire mentality. It's it's not

659
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 1: good for me, and that as a leader, if I'm

660
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 1: not getting the best out of everyone, I'm failing. So

661
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: that part of competition and that part of ranking I

662
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: have to leave at the door.

663
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 3: I think that makes a ton of sense. You're making

664
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 3: me rethink something actually, which is maybe you don't have

665
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 3: to bring the best out in everyone. Maybe maybe the

666
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 3: goal is a little bit more modest, which is to

667
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 3: say I want to make everyone better.

668
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:29,919
Speaker 1: That part it's powerful, right, And this is what There's

669
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: something that you said and I wrote this down because

670
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 1: it's so true, and I swear I'm going to bring

671
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: this in every meeting. It said, the easiest way to

672
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: get people to tell you the truth is to prove

673
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 1: to them that you can handle the truth. That is

674
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 1: so powerful, because I do think in sports we have

675
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 1: massive egos, we have the ability to deflect, We are

676
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 1: coachable when we want to be. But it's this we

677
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,399
Speaker 1: can shell out all the oh you got to be better,

678
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: you got to do this, you got to do that,

679
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: But can you handle someone coming after you that way?

680
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 2: It's really interesting.

681
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 3: It's I can't stress enough how important it is. Constantinos

682
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 3: KOUTI first and I were studying this around when you

683
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,720
Speaker 3: and I met, and we found that so many leaders

684
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 3: asked for feedback, but people didn't know whether they were

685
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 3: genuine about wanting it, and they often found like you

686
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 3: didn't really mean it.

687
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 4: You said you wanted.

688
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,720
Speaker 3: To hear it, but then you completely shut down my idea,

689
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 3: or you know, you just ignored it because you were

690
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 3: either threatened by it or you were too busy to

691
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 3: pay attention. And we found that it's often helpful instead

692
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 3: of actually just asking for feedback, to give yourself feedback

693
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 3: out loud, and that way you're not just claiming you're open,

694
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 3: you're actually proving that you can handle the truth. Yeah,

695
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:57,439
Speaker 3: by saying like, here are the notes I've been given

696
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 3: last week, Here's the three sixty review that I got

697
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 3: about what I need to improve at. Here's what my

698
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 3: team has told me I should be working on. Here

699
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 3: are my own weaknesses and development goals. And guess what,

700
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 3: When you do that, people are much more aware of

701
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 3: your sincere commitment to listening and trying to put their

702
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 3: suggestions into action.

703
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 4: And I think that.

704
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 3: Sometimes I hear leaders when I talk about this. Leaders

705
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 3: will come back and say, but I don't want everyone

706
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 3: to know what I'm bad at, And I'm like.

707
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 4: They already know. Yeah, you can't hide it from them.

708
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 3: The people on your team, they already know what you

709
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 3: stuck at, And so you might as well get credit

710
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 3: for having the self awareness to recognize and the humility

711
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 3: and integrity to admit it and start working on it.

712
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 3: And I think that is the best way to keep

713
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 3: getting better.

714
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: Tell me when you've when you will the last time

715
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: you got it wrong.

716
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 2: I just want to know.

717
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: I want to I want to know the last time

718
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: you really got it wrong? And how how do you

719
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: show up? Like how do you acknowledge it?

720
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 3: This this actually happened over the weekend. I was I

721
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 3: was getting I was getting feedback from a co author

722
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 3: on a project who who said to me, you know,

723
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 3: I think that you're the details are probably boring, but

724
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,760
Speaker 3: who basically said, I think you're you're approaching this argument

725
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 3: wrong and it would be much clearer if we restructured

726
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 3: it this way. And I started fighting back and I

727
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 3: said no, no, no, no, Like, here's the reason I did

728
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 3: it the way I did it. And my my co

729
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,280
Speaker 3: author said to me, it's nice to meet your logic

730
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 3: fully again, and I was like, oh, guilty is charge?

731
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 3: Here we go, like I'm a big believer in Carl

732
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 3: Wike's mantra argue like you're right, listen like you're wrong.

733
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:00,280
Speaker 1: Oh.

734
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 3: But the danger for me is I can get so

735
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 3: passionate about an argument that when people hear me argue

736
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 3: like I'm right, they don't realize that I'm willing to

737
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 3: listen like I'm wrong. And so when I got the

738
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 3: logical Lae feedback again, I had to say, Okay, wait

739
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 3: a minute, let's shift gears here, tell me again what

740
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 3: I'm missing, and I'm going to repeat the point back

741
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 3: to you, and then we're going to try it your way.

742
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 4: And we did and it was better.

743
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 3: And then I did what I often do when I

744
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 3: get something wrong, is I go into happy Gilmore mode,

745
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 3: and I was like, you were right, I was wrong.

746
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 3: You're smart, I'm stupid, You're good looking, I'm not attractive.

747
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 3: And that's my maha kopa, Oh my goodness. It's like

748
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 3: it's good to hear you're human too.

749
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 1: I think that validates a lot of the struggle for me.

750
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: But I do I say this because I asked this

751
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 1: question and so much about this podcast of you know,

752
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 1: the reason why it's name Wide Open is because we

753
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 1: are so much more than what we do. So I

754
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 1: have this question for you, and I ask everyone on

755
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: this show, what moment in your life really split you

756
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:23,320
Speaker 1: wide open, that really changed the landscape of everything your life?

757
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 1: How you show up. It can be with work, it

758
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: can be outside of work. But like, what is that

759
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: moment most people don't know about you that really shook

760
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 1: you to your core, that made you really change and

761
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 1: think about vulnerability and how you show up and.

762
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 2: Just like who Adam is.

763
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 3: I will never forget being in middle school and being

764
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 3: on the phone with my best friend Con and we

765
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 3: got into a stupid argument about a movie quote. I

766
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 3: think it was from robinhood Men Into but I'm not

767
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 3: one hundred percent sure. And we both seen the movie

768
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 3: multiple times. We were both sure we were right, and

769
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 3: we must have argued for ten or twelve or fifteen

770
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 3: minutes and then hung up to go and check to

771
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 3: check the movie. And we got back on the phone

772
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:26,879
Speaker 3: and I wouldn't admit I was wrong, and I tried

773
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 3: to twist the argument to say no, it was actually

774
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 3: like I was paraphrasing, and here's.

775
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 4: Like, you know, here's what I was trying to convey.

776
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 3: And Con said to me, shut up at him, you

777
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 3: know what, this is ridiculous. I won't talk to you

778
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 3: until you admit you were wrong, and he hung up

779
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 3: the phone. And we lived in the same neighborhood. We

780
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 3: rode the bus to school together. We would ride our

781
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,280
Speaker 3: bikes to each other's houses, like on the weekends. We

782
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 3: like we talked every day, and we went several days

783
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 3: without speaking because I couldn't bring myself to admit I

784
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 3: was wrong and talk about splitting me wide open. I

785
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 3: woke up one morning, I was like, what is wrong

786
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 3: with me? Why is it so hard for me to

787
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 3: admit that I was wrong? And I realized that my

788
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 3: identity was all wrapped up in being smart, and being

789
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 3: smart was all about getting the right answer, but it

790
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 3: was coming at the expense of my most important relationship

791
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 3: at the time. And I realized it was more important

792
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 3: to me to get it right than to be right,

793
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 3: and that I never wanted my desire to feel like

794
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 3: I was right. I never wanted that to stand in

795
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 3: the way of maintaining a meaningful relationship. And that was

796
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 3: that was transformative for me.

797
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: Wow, that's powerful, Adam. You You are incredible. You're incredible human,

798
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: and you're so humble and you're so kind, and we're

799
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: all so lucky to know you. To be able to

800
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: read your work, to be able to hear your podcasts,

801
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: to really experience and unpack the questions you have us

802
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 1: ask ourselves, and I'm grateful for it. So thank you

803
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 1: for taking the time today to come on to Wide Open.

804
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 1: Thank you for being vulnerable and helping me unpack my

805
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:31,839
Speaker 1: transition and identity.

806
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 2: I really appreciate it.

807
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 4: Well.

808
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 3: I appreciate your appreciation, and I've you know, for a

809
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 3: long time now. I've admired your both your intensity and

810
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 3: your equanimity as an athlete. And I'm so glad that

811
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:51,240
Speaker 3: Wide Opened is giving people outside of soccer a chance

812
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 3: to learn from you and also to hear you grappling

813
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 3: with the things we all struggle with in real time.

814
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:00,080
Speaker 4: I think that's a gift. So thank you for having.

815
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,479
Speaker 1: I appreciate it, and we will hopefully see you soon.

816
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: Wide Open with Ashlin Harris is an iHeart women's sports production.

817
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 2: You can find us on the.

818
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

819
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 1: Our producers are Carmen Borca Correo, Emily Maronov, and Lucy Jones.

820
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 1: Production assistants from Malia Aguidello. Our executive producers are Jesse Katz,

821
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 1: Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Jenny Kaplan

822
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: and Emily Rudder and I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris,