1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 2: Man, Welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you. 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 2: Our special guest, Stephen Parsons is a ghost hunter and 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 2: a ghost researcher. He has more than fifty years of 5 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 2: experience and as an investigator who blends scientific skepticism with 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 2: an open minded approach to the unexplained, and unlike many 7 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 2: who chase sensationalism, Steve focuses on understanding the human experiences 8 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 2: behind these reported hauntings. Is this book is called Ghostology, 9 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 2: The Art of the Ghost Hunter. Steven, welcome back to 10 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 2: the show. You're with my colleague Dave Schrader ten years ago. 11 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 2: It's been a long time. 12 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 3: Heck of a long time. And good morning, California, because 13 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 3: the sun's up here and it's going to be a 14 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 3: nice day. 15 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 2: What got you into ghost hunting? 16 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 3: I know it's fashionable these days to claim, you know, 17 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 3: some sort of childhood experiencelliance or birth. You know, I'm 18 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 3: a natural born this, that and the other. Actually, I 19 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 3: just wanted to see a ghost. I'd read some ghost 20 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 3: books and it sounded like a really cool thing. I 21 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:15,639 Speaker 3: want to go and see this, see what a ghost 22 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 3: is for myself, and so that's what led me into it, 23 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 3: Just a simple, plain desire to see and experience a ghost. 24 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 2: What was that first experience for you that really kicked it? 25 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 3: Ah, well, there wasn't one. I think that was a 26 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 3: big problem. There wasn't one for a lot of years, 27 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 3: lots of nights sort of sitting in dark, spooky buildings, hoping, 28 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 3: waiting and thick and the slow realization that hey, this 29 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 3: isn't like it is in the books. But eventually I 30 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 3: was fortunate to have a perplexing experience. It was when 31 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 3: I was on duty as a night supervising registered nurse 32 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 3: in an elder home, and I mean it, I'll spay 33 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 3: you the long details, but as part of that, i'd 34 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 3: been off for a couple of days, and as part 35 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 3: of the normal routine, I did a walk around to 36 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 3: make sure everybody was where they should be and look 37 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 3: at the building to see what needed to be done 38 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 3: for the night. And one of the residents was walking 39 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 3: down a corridor. Nothing unusual about that, something that they 40 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 3: regularly would do, and we exchanged a few words, and 41 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 3: I went down to talk to the rest of the 42 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 3: staff to give them the sort of briefing, only to 43 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 3: discover we each thought that the other was playing a 44 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 3: practical joke, because they said, are you being serious, and 45 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 3: I said, no, he's walking. The gentleman is walking along 46 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 3: the corridor upstairs, and we need to take care. And 47 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 3: then they informed me that he died two days prior 48 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 3: during my days off. 49 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 2: Wow. 50 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, wow, So so the night was on. It's now 51 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 3: you know, we start at eight pm and it's now 52 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 3: getting close to midnight, and we used to have to 53 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 3: do every hour a walk around to check on people 54 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,959 Speaker 3: and make sure everybody was okay. Well at the mid 55 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 3: just during the twelve o'clock midnight witching our walkaround, I 56 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 3: was on a different floor and one of the other 57 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 3: staff came running down the stairs making for the making 58 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 3: for the entrance door, and I'm out of here, what's 59 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 3: the matter, and thinking we've got a problem here. I've 60 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 3: just seen walking down the corridor. And that was the 61 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 3: point when I realized that because there had been nothing 62 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 3: untoward about the experience of seeing the gentleman, he had 63 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 3: been perfectly solid, perfectly normal. We interacted in a normal way, 64 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 3: but he was he'd gone. He wasn't there with us 65 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 3: anymore physically or figuratively. 66 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 2: Were you a believer prior to that episode? 67 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 3: I think I was a believer as a child. I 68 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 3: think that's what drove my desire to see a ghost 69 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 3: and to experience a ghost. I think intrinsically, like a 70 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 3: lot of children, we believe in fairy stories, Santa Claus, 71 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 3: the Two Fairy and so. 72 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. 73 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 3: I believed in ghosts as a child, but as the 74 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 3: year's war on, I became more intrigued by white people 75 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 3: see ghosts rather than so my position has changed down 76 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 3: the years. 77 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 2: What would you say at this point a ghost is, Stephen? 78 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 3: Well, that is the million dollar question and one of 79 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 3: the things that I raise several times within other conversations, 80 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 3: because it is we don't actually have a an accurate 81 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 3: definition for what a ghost is. The Oxford English Dictionary 82 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 3: talks about it as being someone or that there's really 83 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 3: a person who has recently died or has passed away 84 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 3: and they appear back to the living as an apparition. 85 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 3: But we've got ghostly buses and ghostly smells, and ghostly 86 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 3: aircraft and indeed ghostly buildings, so that doesn't really fit. 87 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 3: And I think we struggle to define a ghost we 88 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 3: can define what an apparition is, the appearance of something, 89 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 3: the unexpected sometimes appearance, but I don't think we can 90 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 3: accurately define what a ghost is. And I think that's 91 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 3: actually a problem for psychical research. 92 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 2: No, I think you're right without a question. And do 93 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 2: you think the ghostly realm came first or the physical realm? 94 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 3: I again, it's one of the questions that perplexes us. 95 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 3: I think, you know, I would like to imagine. And 96 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 3: we can certainly look in the literature and discern that 97 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 3: ghosts have been reported for as long as man has 98 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 3: been documenting. So we have ghosts in ancient Samaria, we 99 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 3: have them in the Bible. The Chinese refer to ghosts, 100 00:06:55,240 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 3: so do the Romans. And I can't help but believe 101 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 3: that one of our ancient cave living ancestors saw something 102 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 3: unusual at the back of the cave and went to 103 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 3: have a look and was intrigued by what it represented. 104 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 3: And I think, you know, as long as man has 105 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 3: been alive, we've had ghosts. And I think as long 106 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 3: as we've had ghosts, we've had the ghost hunter. 107 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 2: Have you ever come across anything demonic? 108 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:33,119 Speaker 3: In all honesty, though, unless you refer to media presentations 109 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 3: of the paranormal. I've been involved in exorcisms were the 110 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 3: person considered that or believe that they were possessed by 111 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 3: a demon. But I've never encountered a one of these 112 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 3: portrayed evil visitations. 113 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: Have you ever been scared, Steve on any of your 114 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 2: ghosts hunting tours? 115 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 3: No, because it would be kind of like a fisherman 116 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 3: running away from a fish. You know, you stand on 117 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 3: the end of the pier, dangling your worm into the 118 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 3: water and hoping for a bite. Well that's what a 119 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 3: ghost hunter does effectively, albeit these days armed with a 120 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 3: degree of technology. But yeah, I can't imagine the fisherman 121 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 3: running away, And I can't imagine why you would be 122 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 3: frightened by something. I mean, if it's as ethereal as 123 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 3: many descriptions are portrayed, so the it can walk through, 124 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 3: you know, it floats silently down corridors, the ghost walks 125 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 3: through walls, it appears suddenly. I don't perceive it to 126 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 3: be much of a threat, So I kind of like, No. 127 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 3: I've been in situations where I've been fearful, but they've 128 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 3: been due to physical phenomena. The building itself is a 129 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 3: little layery. The weather conditions are not or have blown 130 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 3: up during the time there. I've genuinely felt fear from 131 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 3: the living, including your investigations. I remember one we did 132 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 3: an old public house with a very good reputation, and 133 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 3: we've gone through all the processes of gaining permission from 134 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 3: the landlord, and we duly arrived and we established, we 135 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 3: set up the cameras and all of you can imagine, 136 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 3: I mean this was twenty five years here. You can 137 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 3: imagine the amount of cabling and wire that we'd shot. 138 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 3: And the landlady came back from a night out with 139 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 3: her girlfriends and she was somewhat the worse for wear 140 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 3: and took a great exception to us being there. And 141 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 3: she got quite violent and quite vocal about us being 142 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 3: there and started throwing things around, including you know, ash 143 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 3: trays and glasses, and that was a fearful experience. But 144 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 3: she was very much you know, with us. 145 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 2: Got what got her so upset, Steve. 146 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 3: I genuinely don't know. I think we walked into an 147 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 3: argument between her and a husband, the landlord and landlady, 148 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 3: and I think we were just in the wrong place 149 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 3: at the right at the wrong time, and that she 150 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 3: just took exception to us being there, and she wasn't 151 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 3: you know, she wasn't holding back. 152 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 2: When people report ghostly or hauntings to you, do you 153 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 2: generally accept that as all right, that's possible, that's real, 154 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 2: or are you're a little more skeptical? 155 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 3: I think as an investigator, I think it's important that 156 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 3: you do take initially what the witness says at face value, 157 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 3: because they that is the only at that point in time, 158 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 3: the only information that you have to work form. So 159 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 3: whilst it's important that you do take it at face 160 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 3: value and I guess believe what they're saying, that then 161 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 3: becomes that's the starting that's the foundation, that's the starting 162 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 3: block for a process of trying to discern whether that 163 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 3: experience that they are telling you is plausible and then 164 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 3: trying to test the veracity of what they're saying to you. 165 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 3: So yeah, initially, you absolutely, if you are competent investigator, 166 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 3: you should as a baseline, take what the witness says 167 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 3: in total and try not to make a prejudgment on it, 168 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 3: because if you pre judge something, if you go, well, 169 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 3: that sounds really incredible to me, that sounds implausible, that 170 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 3: sounds fantastic, there is the danger that you start to 171 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 3: color your your own perception and judgments and the way 172 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 3: that in which you begin to approach the process of investigation. 173 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 3: So I think you have to be very open minded 174 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 3: and accept what you're being told. 175 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: What would you say your particular expertise is in this field? 176 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 3: Well, I would say, uh, in fact I would. I 177 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 3: would my particular expertise has become the looking at the 178 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 3: environmental impacts and the environmental causes. So what is it 179 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 3: within the location? Because I don't have the skill set, 180 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 3: and I work with people who are much more competent 181 00:12:54,520 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 3: psychologists than myself, So I leave the people to the 182 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 3: psychologists and I focus on the environment. So I measure 183 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 3: things that need to be measured, but would include the temperature, 184 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 3: the ambient sound, the ambient weather, the micro climate inside 185 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 3: of the building, the appearance of the building. So what 186 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 3: are there any cubes and triggers within the location itself 187 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 3: visually or that could stimulate the other senses into fooling 188 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 3: somebody or making them believe that the experience they're having 189 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 3: is in some way paranormal. 190 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,479 Speaker 2: Have you ever had any experiences, Steve with haunted objects 191 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 2: like dolls. 192 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,559 Speaker 3: I've got a ram surrounded by them as I sit 193 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 3: here now, there must be seven or eight haunted objects 194 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 3: that people have given me down the years. You know, 195 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 3: I don't want this in my house anymore. 196 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 2: Take it away. I don't get rid of them. 197 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 3: And do you know what, They've all sat here, very 198 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 3: well behaved. I have a haunted doll from Salem, New England. 199 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 3: I've got a haunted Irish dagger that's supposed to be cursed, 200 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 3: a cursed and haunted wija board, and they're all terribly 201 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 3: well behaved. 202 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 2: What do you think of wija boards, I've got mixed feelings. 203 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 3: Well, i'll tell you. Perhaps I can sum it up 204 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 3: with a with a little I used to help a 205 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 3: friend who had a new age store and we had 206 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 3: readers would come in and they would give paid readings 207 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 3: to members of the public. And there was a lady 208 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 3: with the store started to sell fairly standard Wieda boards, 209 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 3: and one of the readers came in one day and 210 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 3: she saw the wija boards stacked up on the shelf 211 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 3: and she immediately turned around and said, if they're not gone, 212 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 3: I'm not coming. 213 00:14:58,040 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: I'm mighty here. 214 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm out of here. 215 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 3: And she made a big song announced about. I can 216 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 3: sense that they're evil. They are portal too so, being 217 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 3: of an inquisitive but playful nature, we removed them all 218 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 3: from from the display, put them in the back room 219 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 3: except for one which was taped to the underside of 220 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 3: the reading table. And the lady Julie came back the 221 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 3: following day and had a session with her clients. And 222 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 3: at the end of the session, I said to her, 223 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 3: how did today go? Said? It went fantastically, it was 224 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 3: really positive. And the lady took what I was saying 225 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 3: and all right, and the Wigia board don't speak to 226 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 3: me about them. I can sense how evil there are 227 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 3: they are. At that point I lifted up the table 228 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 3: and showed her the Wigia board that was beneath it. 229 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 3: Wasn't very happy, but it it's a piece of cardboard, 230 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 3: isn't it. And what we see with the Weiji board 231 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 3: is primarily people's fears that they pick up from Hollywood 232 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 3: movies perhaps, or from friends. 233 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 2: Books. You don't see it, Stephen, as a portal to 234 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 2: the dark side. 235 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 3: Not really. It's it's you know, it's it's a piece 236 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 3: of cardboard and a piece of wood, or a piece 237 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 3: of wood and a piece of wood. If you get 238 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 3: the more luxurious versions, they're fascinating because they do give 239 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 3: you an insight into the way that people want to 240 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 3: believe in things, and that they develop this this fear 241 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 3: all of their own. The board just sits there doing 242 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 3: nothing very much at all, but people create this this 243 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 3: aura around the board. And we've all played. We all 244 00:16:57,880 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 3: played with them as kids, didn't we And if we 245 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 3: didn't for the Wigi board, we made one out of 246 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 3: bits of paper and an upside down glass or cup. 247 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 3: And do you know what they always used to say, 248 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 3: the same thing, you will die. 249 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 2: That's right, I'm coming to get you. We've got a guest. 250 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 2: We've got a guest named Karen Dolman who loves the 251 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 2: Wiji board, and she would agree with you that they 252 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,880 Speaker 2: do not permeate evil at all. It's the individual. 253 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 3: They're a fantastic piece of cultural history and social history, 254 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 3: you know, even art. I know people that have them 255 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 3: mounted on the walls in frames all and it's fascinating 256 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 3: to watch the interaction when we When I attend an 257 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 3: investigation as a as a as a guest, it's one 258 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 3: of the highlights for me is to watch the interaction 259 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 3: with not just wigia boards, but other divination objects where 260 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 3: people gather around and they they gain they believe that 261 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 3: they're gaining messages, and sometimes you know, the messages are 262 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 3: as implausible as the scenario that people find themselves in 263 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 3: one of the best of putting wagible just to one 264 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 3: side for a moment, I was, I was, I can't remember. 265 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 3: I think it was Bolsover Castle all many years ago now, 266 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 3: and I was called over to You've got to come 267 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 3: and see this. You've got this is amazing. You know, 268 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 3: we're getting some really good messages here. So I headed 269 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 3: over and into a darkened room, I was confronted for 270 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 3: the first time with ashtray divination. Now you imagine that, 271 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 3: you know, perhaps the figure is drawing the spirit figure 272 00:18:54,320 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 3: is drawing or making symbols into the cigarette discarded cigarette ash. Now, 273 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 3: this was a large glass ashtray on a stand, so 274 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 3: it was like a floor mounted thing and they were 275 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 3: tipping it back and forwards. 276 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 2: Wow, it was moving. 277 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 3: It was Indeed, it's the first time I've ever encountered 278 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 3: ashtray divination. Hopefully the last. 279 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast am every weeknight at 280 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 1: one am Eastern and go to Coast to coastam dot 281 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: com for more