WEBVTT - #134 Jason Flom with Damon Thibodeaux 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.960 This interview was recorded pre COVID nineteen at a fundraiser 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:05.760 for the Innocence Project in front of a live studio audience. 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:11.160 It was July nineteen ninety six. While on leave from 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:13.760 his job as a river barge deckhand, twenty two year 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:18.400 old Damon Thibodeau visited his relatives, the Champagnes. Around noon 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:23.320 on July nineteenth. Their fourteen year old daughter, Damon's step cousin, Crystal, 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.800 walked to a nearby grocery store and never came back. 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:30.720 Damon joined what eventually became the entire neighborhood on a 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:33.760 frenzied search for Crystal that lasted through the night and 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:36.519 into the next day. When he returned home for some 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:41.640 much needed sleep, the sheriff came knocking at the door. Inexplicably, 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:44.120 Damon had become a suspect in what would turn into 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:48.040 a rape and homicide investigation when they found Crystal's partially 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:51.720 nude body strangled to death with a red extension cord. 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:56.280 Damon maintained his innocence, agreeing to a polygraph, which interrogators 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:59.400 would tell him he had failed. Now, if you've listened 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:01.640 to our series about false confessions with Laura and I 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:03.960 writer and Steve Drissen. A lot of the elements of 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:08.560 Damon's story will sound familiar. The polygraph ploy, the false 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:12.440 fed facts followed by a false confession, in this case, 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.959 to the rape and murder of an underage family member, 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:19.399 even with no physical evidence connecting him to the crime, 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.960 the wild disparity between his confession to her rape and 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:25.720 the fact that she hadn't been raped at all, among 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:30.720 a host of other inconsistencies, Damon Thibodeau was nevertheless convicted 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:34.480 and sentenced to death. With the help of the Innisis Project, 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:38.800 DNA testing, and a surprisingly cooperative district attorney, Damon was 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:44.480 exonerated on September twenty eighth, twenty twelve. This is Wrongful 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:58.440 Conviction with Jason Flamm Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Today's 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:01.560 episode is an very interesting when we're recording in front 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:05.760 of a live audience. But today's particularly special because I 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:09.440 have Vanessa Popkin, who was the first staff attorney at 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:11.920 the Endst's Project and is a senior staff attorney now 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:13.960 and has been on the show before. 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:15.240 So Vanessa, welcome back. 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:16.519 It's great to be back. 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:20.880 And with Vanessa is Damon Thibodeaux, who was sentenced to 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:24.040 death for a brutal crime that we now know he 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:27.040 didn't commit. So damon, as I always say, I'm glad 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:27.720 you're here, but i'm. 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:28.239 Sorry you're here. 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:29.880 Thanks for inviting me, Jason. 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:35.440 Let's go back to the time that all this stuff happened. 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:39.120 You were twenty two years old, and what was your 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:39.600 life like? 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:43.160 You were from Louisiana, right, I'm from Louisiana, spent most 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:46.519 of my time in Texas. I'd moved back to Louisiana 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:49.239 and I'd got a job as a deckhand working off shore. 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:52.280 Just got my job, you know. It was three weeks 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:55.040 into the job, took some short leave to pay some bills, things. 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:58.760 Like that, and your stepcousin disappeared. 0:02:58.880 --> 0:02:59.079 Right. 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:03.840 Yes, I was sitting at the dining room table. Her 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:05.960 father was sitting across from me. He left to go 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:09.000 do something. I was working on his watch. He couldn't 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:11.000 put the band on, so I said, I'll put it 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:15.000 on for you, and she asked me to take her 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:17.800 to the store. I told her I couldn't do it 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:21.440 without your parents' permission, and she said, no, I need 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:22.959 you to take me now, and I said no, I 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:26.000 can't do it, and she left and that was the 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:27.000 last time I saw her. 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:30.640 Wow, what time was that more or less. 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:33.120 Just afternoon I believe and she. 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:37.160 Was fourteen, right, yes, and so that was noon. When 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:39.360 did you start to become concerned? And how did the 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:40.920 whole thing unfold? And how did you find out that 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:42.360 she was missing? And when did the search start? Of me, 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:43.440 we want to know everything. 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:46.800 Well, her mother was the one who started to panic 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:53.440 around what time, maybe to three o'clock. She started making 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:55.280 calls to try to find out where she is because 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:57.520 she had never done anything like this before. She never 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:00.400 disappeared like that, you know. She started calling people to 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:03.360 help her look for and offered to help her out, 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:06.320 you know, drive them around the neighborhoods and help them 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:07.080 look for So. 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:09.000 How many people went out, I mean, I'm envisiting like 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:10.400 a large group like you see on TV. 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:13.240 A whole the whole neighborhood. They had the Coast Guard 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:16.320 helicopter there as well by nightfall, flying around the neighborhood 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:18.520 with their light trying to help the search teams in 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:21.120 the wooded areas. And they had fire trucks out there 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:22.920 with all their lights and the police were out there, 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:25.520 and there was a wooded area behind the apartment complex 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:27.760 where they lived, and everybody in the neighborhood just went 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:31.800 walking through it and it was like almost side by side. 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:34.240 We had all driven around the neighborhood some of the 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:36.760 places that she'd hang out in, some of the friends 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:39.160 that she would hang out with, none of them had 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:39.720 seen her. 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:44.560 After searching all night long and having been up for 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:48.400 the previous thirty five hours as well, Damon finally went home, 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:52.000 planning to rejoin the search after getting some much needed rest, 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:54.760 But just as he was about to lay down, there's 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:55.919 a knock at the door. 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:57.480 It's the police. 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:00.080 Damon wants to help in any way you can, and 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:00.760 so he. 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:02.080 Agrees to go with them. 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:05.599 But while at the police station, everything would change. 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:08.800 I was in the interrogation room when they found the. 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:11.839 Body, so they had already identified you as a suspect. 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:14.800 Yes, why you I still don't know to this day. 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:16.240 Do you have any theories on evidence? 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:20.080 The state's theory was that his cousin goes missing, she 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:22.320 walks out to the store. She's going to the wind Dixie, 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:25.240 and when her mother starts to worry about her about 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:28.279 an hour later and there's a search party that Damon 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:31.640 actually leaves the house and encounters her, and it's at 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:34.440 that point that he decides to have sex with her 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:36.680 and kill her and then comes back, you know, to 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:38.640 be seen and to be part of a search party. 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:42.720 So it never really added up, but they did, you know, 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:47.040 take him into custody and start interrogating him. And initially 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.200 they were interrogating him about a missing person, right, and 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:52.919 then during that questioning, her body's found, and so it 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:55.719 turns into an interrogation about what happened to this girl 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:58.680 who's missing too. Now you're a suspect and a homicide. 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:03.200 And when she was found, the initial thought was that 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:04.960 she had been sexually assaulted. 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:06.800 That's correct, because she was. 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:11.240 Partially nude and she had been strangled with a chord, right, 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:12.279 an electrical chord. 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:12.839 Yeah. 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:16.719 And so they interrogated you for almost half a day 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.200 on no sleep. And they can, and they did, play 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:24.640 all sorts of dirty tricks in the interrogation room. In America, 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:27.359 unlike England and many other countries, they can lie to 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:28.680 you in an interrogation room as. 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:29.240 Much as they want. 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:30.800 They are allowed to lie to you. 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:34.200 Yeah, and they did. They gave you a fake polygraph test, 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:37.280 among other things. There's a thing actually was developed in 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.360 Chicago about fifty years ago, right, the read technique, which 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:44.279 is a psychological protocol that's designed to elicit confessions. 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:45.479 Be they false or true. 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:48.920 So what happened in the interrogation, Panessa, because you've studied 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:50.440 this obviously you worked on the case and you got 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:52.640 him out. I mean, fifteen years in death row, but 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:55.560 he's here, he's not dead, which is great, right. 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:58.360 In essence, project worked on the case. You know, it 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:01.800 was a huge monumental effort to get to the point 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:05.520 where Damon was released. When we looked at the confession evidence. 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:09.159 You know, Damon was brought in and he is you know, 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:13.040 interrogated under as you pointed out, less than ideal circumstances. 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:15.240 You know, the night before she went missing, he had 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:18.160 been out hanging out with friends and so he didn't 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:20.000 get a lot of sleep. And then of course she 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:22.240 goes missing and there's a search party, and so he's 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:24.920 not getting sleep that night either, and then the following 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.360 day he's you know, after about thirty five hours of 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.800 being up, he's brought in and interrogated, and for the 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:35.000 first five hours Damon is adamant about his innocence. Right, 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:37.880 you brought up the read technique, and you know, in 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:40.080 the US we went from a time where it was 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:43.160 permissible to beat confessions out of people, and then we 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:46.480 became more enlightened and said, no, you can't physically coerce 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:49.720 the confession. But that coercion turned to mental coercion, and 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:54.200 so the read technique really is about using different coercive 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:57.560 techniques to elicit a confession, and many times it is 0:07:57.600 --> 0:07:59.840 an accurate confession, and a lot of times it also 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:01.800 works so well that it will get people who are 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:04.960 completely innocent to confess. So for the first five hours, 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:07.160 Damon is saying, I'm innocent, I had nothing to do 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:09.120 with this. But part of the red technique is to 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:12.680 not accept the denial. So when you know the suspect 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:15.520 denies that they were involved, they keep saying, we know 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:19.000 you're lying, and they will not accept innocence as an answer. 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:21.400 So they did that to Damon and that ultimately they 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:24.400 told him the only way you can prove your innocence 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:27.480 is for you to take a polygraph. So he agrees, right, 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:29.560 But the polygraph, as you pointed out, Jason, was a 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:33.199 sham and it was really employed just to advance the interrogation, 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:36.160 and so he takes what he believes to be a 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:39.959 polygraph and they come back and they say, you failed, 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:43.440 and we now know you're lying because you failed. So 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:46.160 hearing that you know you failed, and if you have 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:49.320 any belief in a polygraph test and you're twenty two, 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:52.240 you know, they keep questioning him, how could this happen, 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:54.960 and ultimately, you know, get him to say, well, I 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:57.559 had a dream and in a dream, you know, I 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:01.120 saw my cousin who was killed or girl who was killed. 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:03.920 And then ultimately, you know, they keep questioning him. And 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:06.240 you know, what we've seen in so many false confession 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:11.160 cases is that through questioning, with leading questions, details of 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:15.320 the crime are conveyed. That then, under pressure, when you know, 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:18.520 somebody like Damon nine ten hours into the interrogation just 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:20.800 has had enough and feels their only way out is 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:23.720 to give the police what they want, they incorporate those 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:26.360 details that now have been you know, either consciously or 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:30.440 unconsciously conveyed to them by the detectives who are asking 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:33.320 the questions. And so ultimately he gives a statement. But 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:36.400 as we you know, would would come to learn looking 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:38.640 at the statement. Many of the details that he gave 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:42.240 about the crime matched what the police believed to be 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:44.800 true at the time they were doing the interrogation, but 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:47.800 later turned out to be details that were inconsistent with 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:49.040 the known facts of the crime. 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:51.160 Right, they're feeding him information, but it's not even the 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:53.559 right information. All he's doing is repeating what they're saying 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:56.559 to him. And if we know that a false confession 0:09:56.880 --> 0:10:00.200 is the worst possible thing in the eyes. 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:02.480 Of a jury, they don't know it's false obviously. 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:06.280 And what I've seen is that false confessions typically happen 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:10.680 after long, long interrogations like yours, because someone who's guilty 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:13.320 would prefer not to sit in there in that airless 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:16.200 room that we've all seen on TV for hours and 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:18.720 hours on end, in a very hostile environment with no 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:21.040 food and no drink and no nothing, so they might 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:22.080 as well just spit it out. 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:26.520 I mean, it's just incredible. Innocence is actually a risk 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:29.720 factor for making a false confession, because an innocent person 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.320 under that pressure feels like, let me just give them 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:34.719 what they want to hear. And once I get out 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:36.800 of here, the system is going to work and it's 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:38.439 going to sort itself. Out, and people are going to 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:41.400 realize that, you know, as they further investigate, as they 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:43.640 do their police work that they should do, they're going 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:46.720 to see that they got the wrong person. And here 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:51.080 in addition to you know, telling Damon that he failed 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:55.679 a polygraph, they also threatened him and said, look, if 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:58.400 you don't admit this, you know, there's going to be 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.040 a media circus and you're going to be granted, you know, 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.960 a pedophile, and you're going to die by lethal injection. 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:08.200 Of course, by confessing, you know, he didn't save himself 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:10.280 from the death penalty because that's exactly what he got. 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:12.920 And we know also that they interrogated you, Dana for 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:15.679 nine hours, but they only recorded fifty four minutes of it, right, 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:18.400 so we know how that works too, right, they left 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:20.280 all the nefarious stuff out. 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:24.000 Well, the polygraph came out missing as well. They can't 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:25.559 find it, they don't know where, knows where it's at. 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:27.800 But this was the premise for them to keep going 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:28.800 with their investigations. 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:34.400 The police used the polygraph as a ploy to coerce 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:38.840 Damon's false confession to having raped, beaten, and strangled Crystal 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:41.560 with a white or gray speaker wire from his car. 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:43.440 However, the victim. 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:46.800 Was strangled with a red extension cord. He also said 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:49.640 that he ejaculated both in and on the victim, but 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:53.440 the medical examiner found no semen whatsoever, and that she 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:59.160 hadn't even been raped. Given these inconsistencies, prosecutors got very 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:00.040 creative to. 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:01.040 Salvage their case. 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:05.880 So basically in the confession statement, they had Damon saying 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:08.679 that he, you know, had sex with the victim and 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:12.200 ejaculated on her stomach and inside of her. But as 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:15.240 Jason said, there was no seaman evidence recovered. And so, 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:19.880 you know, as wrongful convictions go, you know, a detective 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:22.480 takes the stand and has asked, how can you explain, 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:25.000 how can you account for this? And he says, well, 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:27.240 there were maggots on the body, and so the maggots 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.640 ate the sperm, and the jury bought it. 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:33.680 The coroner's report says she hadn't even been raped, right, 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:37.560 So it's just how they found her, and they just 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:41.160 went off to that conclusion while she was raped, and 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:43.400 the case there is no case. 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:44.560 I was. 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.600 I was getting copies of whatever my lawyer at the 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:50.960 time was getting from the crime labs. You know, I 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:52.800 had copies of the same thing, and I'm like, okay, 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:54.920 there's no way they're going to convict me, you know, 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:57.240 but it just didn't turn out that way. 0:12:57.440 --> 0:12:59.320 So you went to trial, and can you explain to 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:00.200 us what that was like? 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:03.400 I mean, you sit there and you watch as your 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:06.480 life falls apart and there's nothing you can do about it. 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:11.240 You're a spectator on the sideline. You're now in someone 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:15.280 else's life. I mean, whoever did this was supposed to 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:19.280 be sitting in that seat, not me. Now I'm sitting 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:22.400 in that seat. So now I'm in this individual's life. 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.600 I have no idea who it is. And it's just 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:29.000 you're speechless. 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.800 And when the jury went out, did you think for 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:34.840 a minute that they would convict you. 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:38.240 No, I didn't. I'm like, okay, they see the evidence 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:40.319 put in front of them, you know, they're going to 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:42.200 look at this and say, okay, there's no way he 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:46.160 did this. But it's like they didn't even pay attention 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:50.720 to what was being presented. And most juries don't. They 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:53.400 don't pay attention to the evidence that's in front of them. 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:57.640 Like you said, they hear a false confession and they think, oh, 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:00.600 that's it. Okay, I'm not going to cont is something 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.960 I didn't do, so obviously he did it, and that's 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:04.720 just not. 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:05.920 True, right. 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:08.160 I mean, we know that in the first what was 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:11.559 the first one hundred and fifty DNA exenerations, almost a 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:13.200 quarter of them involve false confessions. 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:14.959 Right, that's how common it is, right. 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:17.520 And the numbers just growing. So now we have three 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:20.800 hundred and sixty five DNA xonerations and we're up to 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:25.680 twenty eight percent have involved false confessions. It is one 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:29.920 of the leading causes of wrongful convictions. And yet it's 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:33.680 very hard for the public and judges and lawyers even 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:37.720 to understand how you would confess to a rap or 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:41.400 murder that you didn't commit. With a false confession, you're 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:45.880 almost certain to be convicted, and more often people than 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:49.440 will take a guilty plea because the chance of a 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:51.600 conviction despite innocence is almost certain. 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.400 So the jury comes back and they declare you guilty 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:56.720 on all counts. 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:00.360 I mean, I can't imagine. 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:05.920 Well, I mean, there's not a whole lot you can do. Now. 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:08.800 Your life is not yours anymore. You now belong to 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:12.120 the state. You are the property of the state. That's 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:14.680 why they give you a number. You know, they took 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:19.200 me to Angola, took all of my identification and destroyed 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:22.480 it everything, gave me a little prison id with a 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:24.600 prison number on it, and that's it. Put me in 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:24.960 a cell. 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:28.240 And Angola, just to paint a picture, is formerly a 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:30.200 slave plantation. The reason it's called Angola is because the 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:31.280 slaves were brought over from. 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:33.920 Angola and it was once the bloodiest prison in the country. 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:38.720 And there you were, Yeah, how did you deal with it? 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:41.480 And how did you even find the strength to survive 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:43.640 and ultimately reach out and get a hold of the 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:44.480 Innocence Project? 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:47.800 And you know, how are you even here? It's amazing. 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:52.800 Well, for the first three years, I contemplated whether or 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:56.560 not I wanted to be part of the monkey show? 0:15:57.680 --> 0:15:58.640 What's the monkey show? 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:05.440 The execute? I actually thought about dropping my appeals and 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:08.640 having them carry out the execution and just be done 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:12.400 with it. They make a spectacle when they execute someone, 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:16.120 as everyone knows. You know, it's all on the media. 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:18.080 You know, it's the taking of a life, and they've 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:21.960 turned it into some kind of sport. You know, everybody's like, oh, 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:25.000 I can't wait to kill this guy. And I did 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.040 not want to be part of that. Things are a 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:30.280 little different now because now they're looking at things, well, 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:35.520 they're trying to look at it more humanly. But it 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.480 doesn't matter how you kill someone. It's still an inhumane act. 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:45.480 And with all the exonerations in the country today, I 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:47.560 have to ask the question, how many more is it. 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:49.560 Going to take before we abolish it? 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.640 Before we bolish it? How many more you already know 0:16:52.680 --> 0:17:05.720 you've killed innocent people? How many more? Twenty three hours 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:08.119 a day, no contact with anyone. 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:10.359 Twenty three hours a day in the cell, with no 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:13.480 human contact, no, how do you deal with it? 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:14.639 How did you deal with it? Like? How did you 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:15.520 not lose your mind? 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:19.880 You find things to do, like what whatever? You can 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:24.119 play cards, exercise, clean the cell. I actually scrubbed myself 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:25.320 with a toothbrush. 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:26.399 Just to stay busy, just to stay busy. 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:31.640 So ultimately you ended up somehow or other finding out 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:33.600 about the Ennos's project and reaching out. 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:38.240 Well, Denise lebuff had come to see me one day. 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:40.720 This was, you know, long before I had written the 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:43.360 Nnocence Project. We'll get to that in a minute. And 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:47.280 this is the first time I had met Denise. Everyone 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:49.600 calls her Denny. I call her Denise it's a respect thing. 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:52.280 I don't know, but she's sitting down in front of 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:54.720 me and she's like, Okay, look, you didn't do this. 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:57.600 I know your first lawyer wasn't all that good, but 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:00.879 give me a chance. And from that point on, I 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:04.600 made it a point to at least attempt in existence, 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.680 I suppose, instead of just giving up on it. And 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:10.520 you know, I had heard about the Innocence Project and 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:13.679 I actually wrote them a letter. I gave them my 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:18.439 lawyer's information, my information and the case number, and I 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:21.040 sent it to him and I got a response back saying, Okay, 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:24.080 this is the only correspondence we're going to have because 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:27.040 until they actually pick up a case. That's how it works, 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:30.680 because you know, obviously there are guilty guys out there 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:34.760 who are writing the Innocence Project trying to find a loophole. 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:39.160 And that's the type of letter that I got. Next thing, 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:41.720 I know, you know, there's this law firm in Minnesota 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:44.640 who's down there taking my case. There's the Innocence Project. 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:47.720 Barry and Vanessa show up one day and I'm like, okay. 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:49.360 Yeah, what is that? Like It's like the Avengers ride 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:50.000 again or something. 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:53.800 Right now, you look at it. Yeah, it comes through 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:57.200 with the hammer, you know. But still here I am, 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:01.720 what six seven years into this death sentence, and it 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:05.320 takes another three or four years before they're ready to 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:09.600 go talk to the district attorney. You know. Steve calls 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:12.680 me Steve Kaplan, he's one of the lawyers from Frederickson 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:16.600 and Byron who handled my case, and he's like, Okay, 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:18.399 how do you want to do this? You want to 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:20.480 just go to courtA, you want to talk to the 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:23.440 district attorney. I said, talk to the district attorney first, 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:27.600 and everyone was against the idea. It's not going to work. 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:30.400 You know who he is. He's a product of Paul 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:35.520 Connick and they just want to kill people. And I said, well, 0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:38.600 what do I have to lose? You know, it's either 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:44.040 another ten twenty year fight or maybe just by luck, 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:46.879 he'll talk to you. So they set up a meeting 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:49.560 and he agreed to reinvestigate my case. 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:52.280 And are you in that meeting? Yeah? 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:54.800 So this was you know, now there's a lot of 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:58.119 talk about conviction review units, you know, being established throughout 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:00.600 the country, but this was several years ag go. And 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:02.840 so you know, we arranged a meeting to go talk 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:06.080 to the DA Paul Konnick and who's the cousin of 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:10.119 Harry Connick. So he's the good cousin and he is 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:13.320