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Speaker 1: This interview was recorded pre COVID nineteen at a fundraiser

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Speaker 1: for the Innocence Project in front of a live studio audience.

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Speaker 2: It was July nineteen ninety six. While on leave from

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Speaker 2: his job as a river barge deckhand, twenty two year

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Speaker 2: old Damon Thibodeau visited his relatives, the Champagnes. Around noon

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Speaker 2: on July nineteenth. Their fourteen year old daughter, Damon's step cousin, Crystal,

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Speaker 2: walked to a nearby grocery store and never came back.

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Speaker 2: Damon joined what eventually became the entire neighborhood on a

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Speaker 2: frenzied search for Crystal that lasted through the night and

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Speaker 2: into the next day. When he returned home for some

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Speaker 2: much needed sleep, the sheriff came knocking at the door. Inexplicably,

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Speaker 2: Damon had become a suspect in what would turn into

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Speaker 2: a rape and homicide investigation when they found Crystal's partially

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Speaker 2: nude body strangled to death with a red extension cord.

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Speaker 2: Damon maintained his innocence, agreeing to a polygraph, which interrogators

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Speaker 2: would tell him he had failed. Now, if you've listened

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Speaker 2: to our series about false confessions with Laura and I

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Speaker 2: writer and Steve Drissen. A lot of the elements of

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Speaker 2: Damon's story will sound familiar. The polygraph ploy, the false

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Speaker 2: fed facts followed by a false confession, in this case,

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Speaker 2: to the rape and murder of an underage family member,

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Speaker 2: even with no physical evidence connecting him to the crime,

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Speaker 2: the wild disparity between his confession to her rape and

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Speaker 2: the fact that she hadn't been raped at all, among

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Speaker 2: a host of other inconsistencies, Damon Thibodeau was nevertheless convicted

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Speaker 2: and sentenced to death. With the help of the Innisis Project,

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Speaker 2: DNA testing, and a surprisingly cooperative district attorney, Damon was

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Speaker 2: exonerated on September twenty eighth, twenty twelve. This is Wrongful

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Speaker 2: Conviction with Jason Flamm Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Today's

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Speaker 2: episode is an very interesting when we're recording in front

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Speaker 2: of a live audience. But today's particularly special because I

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Speaker 2: have Vanessa Popkin, who was the first staff attorney at

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Speaker 2: the Endst's Project and is a senior staff attorney now

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Speaker 2: and has been on the show before.

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Speaker 3: So Vanessa, welcome back.

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Speaker 1: It's great to be back.

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Speaker 2: And with Vanessa is Damon Thibodeaux, who was sentenced to

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Speaker 2: death for a brutal crime that we now know he

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Speaker 2: didn't commit. So damon, as I always say, I'm glad

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Speaker 2: you're here, but i'm.

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Speaker 3: Sorry you're here.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for inviting me, Jason.

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Speaker 2: Let's go back to the time that all this stuff happened.

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Speaker 2: You were twenty two years old, and what was your

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Speaker 2: life like?

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Speaker 4: You were from Louisiana, right, I'm from Louisiana, spent most

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Speaker 4: of my time in Texas. I'd moved back to Louisiana

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Speaker 4: and I'd got a job as a deckhand working off shore.

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Speaker 4: Just got my job, you know. It was three weeks

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Speaker 4: into the job, took some short leave to pay some bills, things.

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Speaker 2: Like that, and your stepcousin disappeared.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I was sitting at the dining room table. Her

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Speaker 4: father was sitting across from me. He left to go

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Speaker 4: do something. I was working on his watch. He couldn't

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Speaker 4: put the band on, so I said, I'll put it

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Speaker 4: on for you, and she asked me to take her

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Speaker 4: to the store. I told her I couldn't do it

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Speaker 4: without your parents' permission, and she said, no, I need

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Speaker 4: you to take me now, and I said no, I

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Speaker 4: can't do it, and she left and that was the

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Speaker 4: last time I saw her.

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Speaker 3: Wow, what time was that more or less.

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Speaker 4: Just afternoon I believe and she.

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Speaker 2: Was fourteen, right, yes, and so that was noon. When

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Speaker 2: did you start to become concerned? And how did the

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Speaker 2: whole thing unfold? And how did you find out that

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Speaker 2: she was missing? And when did the search start? Of me,

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Speaker 2: we want to know everything.

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Speaker 4: Well, her mother was the one who started to panic

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Speaker 4: around what time, maybe to three o'clock. She started making

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Speaker 4: calls to try to find out where she is because

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Speaker 4: she had never done anything like this before. She never

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Speaker 4: disappeared like that, you know. She started calling people to

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Speaker 4: help her look for and offered to help her out,

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Speaker 4: you know, drive them around the neighborhoods and help them

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Speaker 4: look for So.

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Speaker 2: How many people went out, I mean, I'm envisiting like

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Speaker 2: a large group like you see on TV.

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Speaker 4: A whole the whole neighborhood. They had the Coast Guard

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Speaker 4: helicopter there as well by nightfall, flying around the neighborhood

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Speaker 4: with their light trying to help the search teams in

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Speaker 4: the wooded areas. And they had fire trucks out there

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Speaker 4: with all their lights and the police were out there,

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Speaker 4: and there was a wooded area behind the apartment complex

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Speaker 4: where they lived, and everybody in the neighborhood just went

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Speaker 4: walking through it and it was like almost side by side.

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Speaker 4: We had all driven around the neighborhood some of the

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Speaker 4: places that she'd hang out in, some of the friends

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Speaker 4: that she would hang out with, none of them had

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Speaker 4: seen her.

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Speaker 2: After searching all night long and having been up for

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Speaker 2: the previous thirty five hours as well, Damon finally went home,

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Speaker 2: planning to rejoin the search after getting some much needed rest,

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Speaker 2: But just as he was about to lay down, there's

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Speaker 2: a knock at the door.

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Speaker 3: It's the police.

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Speaker 2: Damon wants to help in any way you can, and

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Speaker 2: so he.

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Speaker 3: Agrees to go with them.

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Speaker 2: But while at the police station, everything would change.

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Speaker 4: I was in the interrogation room when they found the.

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Speaker 3: Body, so they had already identified you as a suspect.

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Speaker 4: Yes, why you I still don't know to this day.

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Speaker 3: Do you have any theories on evidence?

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Speaker 1: The state's theory was that his cousin goes missing, she

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Speaker 1: walks out to the store. She's going to the wind Dixie,

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Speaker 1: and when her mother starts to worry about her about

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Speaker 1: an hour later and there's a search party that Damon

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Speaker 1: actually leaves the house and encounters her, and it's at

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Speaker 1: that point that he decides to have sex with her

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Speaker 1: and kill her and then comes back, you know, to

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Speaker 1: be seen and to be part of a search party.

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Speaker 1: So it never really added up, but they did, you know,

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Speaker 1: take him into custody and start interrogating him. And initially

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Speaker 1: they were interrogating him about a missing person, right, and

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Speaker 1: then during that questioning, her body's found, and so it

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Speaker 1: turns into an interrogation about what happened to this girl

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Speaker 1: who's missing too. Now you're a suspect and a homicide.

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Speaker 2: And when she was found, the initial thought was that

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Speaker 2: she had been sexually assaulted.

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Speaker 3: That's correct, because she was.

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Speaker 2: Partially nude and she had been strangled with a chord, right,

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Speaker 2: an electrical chord.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And so they interrogated you for almost half a day

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Speaker 2: on no sleep. And they can, and they did, play

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Speaker 2: all sorts of dirty tricks in the interrogation room. In America,

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Speaker 2: unlike England and many other countries, they can lie to

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Speaker 2: you in an interrogation room as.

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Speaker 3: Much as they want.

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Speaker 4: They are allowed to lie to you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they did. They gave you a fake polygraph test,

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Speaker 2: among other things. There's a thing actually was developed in

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Speaker 2: Chicago about fifty years ago, right, the read technique, which

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Speaker 2: is a psychological protocol that's designed to elicit confessions.

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Speaker 3: Be they false or true.

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Speaker 2: So what happened in the interrogation, Panessa, because you've studied

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Speaker 2: this obviously you worked on the case and you got

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Speaker 2: him out. I mean, fifteen years in death row, but

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Speaker 2: he's here, he's not dead, which is great, right.

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Speaker 1: In essence, project worked on the case. You know, it

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Speaker 1: was a huge monumental effort to get to the point

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Speaker 1: where Damon was released. When we looked at the confession evidence.

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Speaker 1: You know, Damon was brought in and he is you know,

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Speaker 1: interrogated under as you pointed out, less than ideal circumstances.

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Speaker 1: You know, the night before she went missing, he had

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Speaker 1: been out hanging out with friends and so he didn't

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Speaker 1: get a lot of sleep. And then of course she

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Speaker 1: goes missing and there's a search party, and so he's

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Speaker 1: not getting sleep that night either, and then the following

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Speaker 1: day he's you know, after about thirty five hours of

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Speaker 1: being up, he's brought in and interrogated, and for the

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Speaker 1: first five hours Damon is adamant about his innocence. Right,

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Speaker 1: you brought up the read technique, and you know, in

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Speaker 1: the US we went from a time where it was

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Speaker 1: permissible to beat confessions out of people, and then we

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Speaker 1: became more enlightened and said, no, you can't physically coerce

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Speaker 1: the confession. But that coercion turned to mental coercion, and

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Speaker 1: so the read technique really is about using different coercive

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Speaker 1: techniques to elicit a confession, and many times it is

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Speaker 1: an accurate confession, and a lot of times it also

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Speaker 1: works so well that it will get people who are

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Speaker 1: completely innocent to confess. So for the first five hours,

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Speaker 1: Damon is saying, I'm innocent, I had nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with this. But part of the red technique is to

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Speaker 1: not accept the denial. So when you know the suspect

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Speaker 1: denies that they were involved, they keep saying, we know

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Speaker 1: you're lying, and they will not accept innocence as an answer.

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Speaker 1: So they did that to Damon and that ultimately they

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Speaker 1: told him the only way you can prove your innocence

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Speaker 1: is for you to take a polygraph. So he agrees, right,

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Speaker 1: But the polygraph, as you pointed out, Jason, was a

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Speaker 1: sham and it was really employed just to advance the interrogation,

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Speaker 1: and so he takes what he believes to be a

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Speaker 1: polygraph and they come back and they say, you failed,

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Speaker 1: and we now know you're lying because you failed. So

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Speaker 1: hearing that you know you failed, and if you have

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Speaker 1: any belief in a polygraph test and you're twenty two,

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Speaker 1: you know, they keep questioning him, how could this happen,

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Speaker 1: and ultimately, you know, get him to say, well, I

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Speaker 1: had a dream and in a dream, you know, I

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Speaker 1: saw my cousin who was killed or girl who was killed.

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Speaker 1: And then ultimately, you know, they keep questioning him. And

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Speaker 1: you know, what we've seen in so many false confession

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Speaker 1: cases is that through questioning, with leading questions, details of

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Speaker 1: the crime are conveyed. That then, under pressure, when you know,

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Speaker 1: somebody like Damon nine ten hours into the interrogation just

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Speaker 1: has had enough and feels their only way out is

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Speaker 1: to give the police what they want, they incorporate those

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Speaker 1: details that now have been you know, either consciously or

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Speaker 1: unconsciously conveyed to them by the detectives who are asking

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Speaker 1: the questions. And so ultimately he gives a statement. But

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Speaker 1: as we you know, would would come to learn looking

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Speaker 1: at the statement. Many of the details that he gave

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Speaker 1: about the crime matched what the police believed to be

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Speaker 1: true at the time they were doing the interrogation, but

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Speaker 1: later turned out to be details that were inconsistent with

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Speaker 1: the known facts of the crime.

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Speaker 2: Right, they're feeding him information, but it's not even the

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Speaker 2: right information. All he's doing is repeating what they're saying

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Speaker 2: to him. And if we know that a false confession

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Speaker 2: is the worst possible thing in the eyes.

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Speaker 3: Of a jury, they don't know it's false obviously.

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Speaker 2: And what I've seen is that false confessions typically happen

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Speaker 2: after long, long interrogations like yours, because someone who's guilty

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Speaker 2: would prefer not to sit in there in that airless

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Speaker 2: room that we've all seen on TV for hours and

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Speaker 2: hours on end, in a very hostile environment with no

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Speaker 2: food and no drink and no nothing, so they might

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Speaker 2: as well just spit it out.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just incredible. Innocence is actually a risk

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Speaker 1: factor for making a false confession, because an innocent person

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Speaker 1: under that pressure feels like, let me just give them

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Speaker 1: what they want to hear. And once I get out

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Speaker 1: of here, the system is going to work and it's

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Speaker 1: going to sort itself. Out, and people are going to

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Speaker 1: realize that, you know, as they further investigate, as they

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Speaker 1: do their police work that they should do, they're going

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Speaker 1: to see that they got the wrong person. And here

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Speaker 1: in addition to you know, telling Damon that he failed

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Speaker 1: a polygraph, they also threatened him and said, look, if

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Speaker 1: you don't admit this, you know, there's going to be

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Speaker 1: a media circus and you're going to be granted, you know,

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Speaker 1: a pedophile, and you're going to die by lethal injection.

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Speaker 1: Of course, by confessing, you know, he didn't save himself

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Speaker 1: from the death penalty because that's exactly what he got.

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Speaker 2: And we know also that they interrogated you, Dana for

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Speaker 2: nine hours, but they only recorded fifty four minutes of it, right,

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Speaker 2: so we know how that works too, right, they left

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Speaker 2: all the nefarious stuff out.

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Speaker 4: Well, the polygraph came out missing as well. They can't

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Speaker 4: find it, they don't know where, knows where it's at.

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Speaker 4: But this was the premise for them to keep going

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Speaker 4: with their investigations.

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Speaker 2: The police used the polygraph as a ploy to coerce

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Speaker 2: Damon's false confession to having raped, beaten, and strangled Crystal

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Speaker 2: with a white or gray speaker wire from his car.

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Speaker 3: However, the victim.

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Speaker 2: Was strangled with a red extension cord. He also said

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Speaker 2: that he ejaculated both in and on the victim, but

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Speaker 2: the medical examiner found no semen whatsoever, and that she

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Speaker 2: hadn't even been raped. Given these inconsistencies, prosecutors got very

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Speaker 2: creative to.

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Speaker 3: Salvage their case.

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Speaker 1: So basically in the confession statement, they had Damon saying

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Speaker 1: that he, you know, had sex with the victim and

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Speaker 1: ejaculated on her stomach and inside of her. But as

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Speaker 1: Jason said, there was no seaman evidence recovered. And so,

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Speaker 1: you know, as wrongful convictions go, you know, a detective

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Speaker 1: takes the stand and has asked, how can you explain,

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Speaker 1: how can you account for this? And he says, well,

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Speaker 1: there were maggots on the body, and so the maggots

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Speaker 1: ate the sperm, and the jury bought it.

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Speaker 4: The coroner's report says she hadn't even been raped, right,

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Speaker 4: So it's just how they found her, and they just

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Speaker 4: went off to that conclusion while she was raped, and

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Speaker 4: the case there is no case.

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Speaker 3: I was.

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Speaker 4: I was getting copies of whatever my lawyer at the

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Speaker 4: time was getting from the crime labs. You know, I

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Speaker 4: had copies of the same thing, and I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 4: there's no way they're going to convict me, you know,

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Speaker 4: but it just didn't turn out that way.

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Speaker 3: So you went to trial, and can you explain to

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Speaker 3: us what that was like?

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Speaker 4: I mean, you sit there and you watch as your

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Speaker 4: life falls apart and there's nothing you can do about it.

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Speaker 4: You're a spectator on the sideline. You're now in someone

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Speaker 4: else's life. I mean, whoever did this was supposed to

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Speaker 4: be sitting in that seat, not me. Now I'm sitting

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Speaker 4: in that seat. So now I'm in this individual's life.

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Speaker 4: I have no idea who it is. And it's just

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Speaker 4: you're speechless.

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Speaker 2: And when the jury went out, did you think for

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Speaker 2: a minute that they would convict you.

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Speaker 4: No, I didn't. I'm like, okay, they see the evidence

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Speaker 4: put in front of them, you know, they're going to

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Speaker 4: look at this and say, okay, there's no way he

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Speaker 4: did this. But it's like they didn't even pay attention

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Speaker 4: to what was being presented. And most juries don't. They

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Speaker 4: don't pay attention to the evidence that's in front of them.

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Speaker 4: Like you said, they hear a false confession and they think, oh,

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Speaker 4: that's it. Okay, I'm not going to cont is something

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Speaker 4: I didn't do, so obviously he did it, and that's

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Speaker 4: just not.

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Speaker 3: True, right.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we know that in the first what was

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Speaker 2: the first one hundred and fifty DNA exenerations, almost a

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Speaker 2: quarter of them involve false confessions.

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Speaker 3: Right, that's how common it is, right.

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Speaker 1: And the numbers just growing. So now we have three

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Speaker 1: hundred and sixty five DNA xonerations and we're up to

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Speaker 1: twenty eight percent have involved false confessions. It is one

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Speaker 1: of the leading causes of wrongful convictions. And yet it's

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Speaker 1: very hard for the public and judges and lawyers even

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Speaker 1: to understand how you would confess to a rap or

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Speaker 1: murder that you didn't commit. With a false confession, you're

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Speaker 1: almost certain to be convicted, and more often people than

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Speaker 1: will take a guilty plea because the chance of a

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Speaker 1: conviction despite innocence is almost certain.

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Speaker 2: So the jury comes back and they declare you guilty

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Speaker 2: on all counts.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I can't imagine.

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean, there's not a whole lot you can do. Now.

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Speaker 4: Your life is not yours anymore. You now belong to

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Speaker 4: the state. You are the property of the state. That's

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Speaker 4: why they give you a number. You know, they took

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Speaker 4: me to Angola, took all of my identification and destroyed

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Speaker 4: it everything, gave me a little prison id with a

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Speaker 4: prison number on it, and that's it. Put me in

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Speaker 4: a cell.

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Speaker 2: And Angola, just to paint a picture, is formerly a

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Speaker 2: slave plantation. The reason it's called Angola is because the

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Speaker 2: slaves were brought over from.

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Speaker 4: Angola and it was once the bloodiest prison in the country.

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Speaker 2: And there you were, Yeah, how did you deal with it?

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Speaker 2: And how did you even find the strength to survive

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Speaker 2: and ultimately reach out and get a hold of the

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Speaker 2: Innocence Project?

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Speaker 3: And you know, how are you even here? It's amazing.

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Speaker 4: Well, for the first three years, I contemplated whether or

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Speaker 4: not I wanted to be part of the monkey show?

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Speaker 3: What's the monkey show?

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Speaker 4: The execute? I actually thought about dropping my appeals and

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Speaker 4: having them carry out the execution and just be done

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Speaker 4: with it. They make a spectacle when they execute someone,

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Speaker 4: as everyone knows. You know, it's all on the media.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's the taking of a life, and they've

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Speaker 4: turned it into some kind of sport. You know, everybody's like, oh,

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Speaker 4: I can't wait to kill this guy. And I did

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Speaker 4: not want to be part of that. Things are a

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Speaker 4: little different now because now they're looking at things, well,

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Speaker 4: they're trying to look at it more humanly. But it

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Speaker 4: doesn't matter how you kill someone. It's still an inhumane act.

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Speaker 4: And with all the exonerations in the country today, I

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Speaker 4: have to ask the question, how many more is it.

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Speaker 3: Going to take before we abolish it?

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Speaker 4: Before we bolish it? How many more you already know

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Speaker 4: you've killed innocent people? How many more? Twenty three hours

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Speaker 4: a day, no contact with anyone.

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Speaker 2: Twenty three hours a day in the cell, with no

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Speaker 2: human contact, no, how do you deal with it?

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Speaker 3: How did you deal with it? Like? How did you

345
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Speaker 3: not lose your mind?

346
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Speaker 4: You find things to do, like what whatever? You can

347
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Speaker 4: play cards, exercise, clean the cell. I actually scrubbed myself

348
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Speaker 4: with a toothbrush.

349
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Speaker 3: Just to stay busy, just to stay busy.

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Speaker 2: So ultimately you ended up somehow or other finding out

351
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Speaker 2: about the Ennos's project and reaching out.

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Speaker 4: Well, Denise lebuff had come to see me one day.

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Speaker 4: This was, you know, long before I had written the

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Speaker 4: Nnocence Project. We'll get to that in a minute. And

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Speaker 4: this is the first time I had met Denise. Everyone

356
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Speaker 4: calls her Denny. I call her Denise it's a respect thing.

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Speaker 4: I don't know, but she's sitting down in front of

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Speaker 4: me and she's like, Okay, look, you didn't do this.

359
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Speaker 4: I know your first lawyer wasn't all that good, but

360
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Speaker 4: give me a chance. And from that point on, I

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Speaker 4: made it a point to at least attempt in existence,

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Speaker 4: I suppose, instead of just giving up on it. And

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Speaker 4: you know, I had heard about the Innocence Project and

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Speaker 4: I actually wrote them a letter. I gave them my

365
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Speaker 4: lawyer's information, my information and the case number, and I

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Speaker 4: sent it to him and I got a response back saying, Okay,

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Speaker 4: this is the only correspondence we're going to have because

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Speaker 4: until they actually pick up a case. That's how it works,

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Speaker 4: because you know, obviously there are guilty guys out there

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Speaker 4: who are writing the Innocence Project trying to find a loophole.

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Speaker 4: And that's the type of letter that I got. Next thing,

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Speaker 4: I know, you know, there's this law firm in Minnesota

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Speaker 4: who's down there taking my case. There's the Innocence Project.

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Speaker 4: Barry and Vanessa show up one day and I'm like, okay.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, what is that? Like It's like the Avengers ride

376
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Speaker 3: again or something.

377
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Speaker 4: Right now, you look at it. Yeah, it comes through

378
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,200
Speaker 4: with the hammer, you know. But still here I am,

379
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Speaker 4: what six seven years into this death sentence, and it

380
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,320
Speaker 4: takes another three or four years before they're ready to

381
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Speaker 4: go talk to the district attorney. You know. Steve calls

382
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Speaker 4: me Steve Kaplan, he's one of the lawyers from Frederickson

383
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Speaker 4: and Byron who handled my case, and he's like, Okay,

384
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Speaker 4: how do you want to do this? You want to

385
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Speaker 4: just go to courtA, you want to talk to the

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Speaker 4: district attorney. I said, talk to the district attorney first,

387
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Speaker 4: and everyone was against the idea. It's not going to work.

388
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Speaker 4: You know who he is. He's a product of Paul

389
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Speaker 4: Connick and they just want to kill people. And I said, well,

390
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Speaker 4: what do I have to lose? You know, it's either

391
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Speaker 4: another ten twenty year fight or maybe just by luck,

392
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Speaker 4: he'll talk to you. So they set up a meeting

393
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Speaker 4: and he agreed to reinvestigate my case.

394
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Speaker 3: And are you in that meeting? Yeah?

395
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Speaker 1: So this was you know, now there's a lot of

396
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Speaker 1: talk about conviction review units, you know, being established throughout

397
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Speaker 1: the country, but this was several years ag go. And

398
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Speaker 1: so you know, we arranged a meeting to go talk

399
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Speaker 1: to the DA Paul Konnick and who's the cousin of

400
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Speaker 1: Harry Connick. So he's the good cousin and he is

401
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,320
Speaker 1: the DA in Jefferson Parish, and you know, big team there.

402
00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,600
Speaker 1: They had an investigator, Vince Lamia in the room and

403
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Speaker 1: Steve Wimberley the first assistant. So they assembled the big

404
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,359
Speaker 1: team and we basically went through a presentation of the

405
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Speaker 1: confession of the timeline which just virtually made it impossible

406
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Speaker 1: for Damon to have been involved. So when we walked

407
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Speaker 1: through and we did a presentation, they did acknowledge that

408
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Speaker 1: there were enough problems in the case that they should

409
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Speaker 1: undertake an investigation. And it was quite a massive undertaking.

410
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,320
Speaker 1: Every piece of evidence that existed was sent out for

411
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Speaker 1: DNA testing, and because he had been arrested that night,

412
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Speaker 1: they had taken a male rape kit from him. I mean,

413
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Speaker 1: there was not one piece of physical evidence to suggest

414
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,399
Speaker 1: that he had anything to do with the crime. And

415
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Speaker 1: in fact, the victim had been strangled with a piece

416
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Speaker 1: of wire and it had been burned off of a

417
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,399
Speaker 1: wire that was hanging in a tree. So the perpetrator

418
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Speaker 1: burned it off and then took it to strangle the victim.

419
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Speaker 1: And we were able to get some bloods and DNA

420
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Speaker 1: on that wire at the scene that excluded Damon. So

421
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,159
Speaker 1: you know, there was years of a joint reinvestigation with

422
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Speaker 1: the district attorney's office to get to the point where

423
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Speaker 1: they acknowledged that Damon was innocent and they had convicted

424
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Speaker 1: and sent an innocent man to death row.

425
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Speaker 4: How often is it that a district attorney that's prosecuted

426
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Speaker 4: a case is the same district attorney that comes back

427
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 4: and releases that individual.

428
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Speaker 3: Rare?

429
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Speaker 4: It's rare. So Connick did something in Louisiana that was

430
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Speaker 4: pretty much unheard of and it could have hurt him.

431
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Speaker 4: You know, he took that chance to step out there

432
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Speaker 4: and say, okay, wait, we got a problem. I'm I'm

433
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Speaker 4: glad he got out of his comfort zone and decided

434
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Speaker 4: to take a step in a new direction.

435
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Speaker 2: So now it comes to the good part of the story, right,

436
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,239
Speaker 2: the moment right when you found out that you were

437
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:11,200
Speaker 2: actually going to go home?

438
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 3: How did you find out? What was it like?

439
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,480
Speaker 4: It was a phone call on a Wednesday, I think

440
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 4: it was. Everything was agreed to. They had set something

441
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 4: up to have the judge and the district attorney sign everything,

442
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 4: but the thing. They were trying to get everything done

443
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 4: before Friday because that's when the prison office is closed.

444
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 4: So this was all done on a Friday, and they

445
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 4: had everything faxed over to the prison and the sergeant

446
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,080
Speaker 4: comes down to the cell. He says, pack your stuff.

447
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,199
Speaker 4: You're going home, but first we have to take you

448
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:45,919
Speaker 4: over to the hospital to have you checked out. So

449
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,359
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm in a full jumpsuit and chains, and

450
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 4: I go to the hospital and the ranking officers there

451
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,880
Speaker 4: is like, buyse in a jumpsuit and chains, where's his property? Well,

452
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 4: it's everything's back to the cell where he's going home.

453
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,119
Speaker 4: He's not supposed to be going back, so they have

454
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 4: to take me back to death row, take me out

455
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 4: of the jumpsuit, and I gotta put my clothes on

456
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,399
Speaker 4: and grab my stuff. So you know, it's kind of

457
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:11,880
Speaker 4: it's not real until you walk out the gate.

458
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 2: And after you worked on this case for all those years,

459
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:16,160
Speaker 2: what was it like for you?

460
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 1: Well, it was amazing. I personally wasn't there because I

461
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 1: was basically nine months pregnant and I couldn't get on

462
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,360
Speaker 1: a plane, so I missed that moment of seeing Damon.

463
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: But it was you know, Barry Shek was there, Steve

464
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 1: Kaplan from the law firm, Denny Lebuffe from the Capitol

465
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 1: Resource Center in Louisiana, and it just, you know, I

466
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,360
Speaker 1: don't even know what the estimate is of Steve's hours.

467
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 4: Steve, I mean, he was so instrumental in helping me

468
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,120
Speaker 4: out while I was there, and post release, he helped

469
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,919
Speaker 4: me out in ways that you know, you just can't repay.

470
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 4: You know, this man, he flew down here and drove

471
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 4: me back to Minnesota because I had decided to move

472
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 4: to Minnesota after I was released to start things over,

473
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 4: and I lived with him until November of that year,

474
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 4: got my own place, and he actually the Innocence Project

475
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 4: helped me get a car, helped me with my rent,

476
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:18,959
Speaker 4: and Steve helped me out with that as well. And

477
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 4: you know, I can't repay him for what he's done.

478
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 2: So damon, I have to ask you. And it's beautiful

479
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 2: to hear you say that. Have you been compensated? No,

480
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 2: so you've gotten nothing.

481
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 4: I've gotten nothing. There is current litigation, right.

482
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 3: But you know you're tiving to make ends to me

483
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 3: on your own.

484
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, if I don't do nothing, I'm gonna

485
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 4: lose my mind. You know, there are things I want

486
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,239
Speaker 4: to do, places I want to go. You know, I

487
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 4: like that juicy steak, you know, but.

488
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 3: You gotta pay for it, right, So you're out there.

489
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 4: So you know, I'm out there doing my job, and

490
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 4: you know, if it comes through, then hey, I'm all

491
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 4: for it. But if not, then you know I've got

492
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 4: a job to do.

493
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 2: So look, I think, Damon, it's a it's a terrible story.

494
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 2: It's a remarkable story. You're a remarkable guy. You're out

495
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 2: there now driving a truck and living life and seeing

496
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 2: the country and experiencing freedom, and that's awesome and we're

497
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 2: really proud of you. And now we get to my

498
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 2: favorite part of the show, which is that I actually

499
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 2: get to stop talking and just listen. And so before

500
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 2: I do that, I want to thank you both again

501
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 2: for coming and being on the show. Vanessa Popkin, senior

502
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 2: staff attorney at The Innocence Project, badass lawyer and human being.

503
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 2: And Damon Thibodeau death row xannery and inspirational character. So

504
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 2: I think we're gonna save the best for last, and

505
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 2: that's you, Damon. So with all due respect that we're

506
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 2: going to turn it over to you Vanessa for your

507
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 2: closing thoughts.

508
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: Well, we've talked about, you know, the number of people

509
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: in prison and the US leading in terms of our

510
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: prison population, leading the world, and you know, when it

511
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 1: comes to and what the error rates are and how

512
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: many people that means are innocent in prison today, and

513
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 1: when you take a look just at death row in itself,

514
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: we have about twenty seven hundred people on death row.

515
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 1: There have been conservative estimates that four four point one

516
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: percent of people on death row are actually innocent, and

517
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 1: so that would mean there are one hundred and nine

518
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: people incarcerated today on death row facing execution for crimes

519
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 1: that they didn't commit.

520
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 4: David, Well, you know, being where I am now as

521
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 4: opposed to where I was six years ago. You know,

522
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 4: a lot of guys in my position they don't have

523
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 4: anything when they walk out, and it's sometimes years before

524
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 4: they get compensation. I had a lot of help getting

525
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 4: where I am. You know, the reason why I'm driving

526
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 4: a truck is because I'm at a guy at the

527
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 4: Minneapolis Auto Show, a guy named Bill Collins, friends of

528
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 4: truck driving school. He was, you know, at the auto show.

529
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 4: He drives you know, stock cart as well as a

530
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 4: hobby and he asked me one day, he said, what

531
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 4: do you think about driving truck? And I said it's okay.

532
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 4: He said, well, I want to pay for you to

533
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 4: go through my school and get your CDL. I'm sitting

534
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 4: here thinking, okay, I have the Innocence Project doing this,

535
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 4: I have Steve doing this. Now here's this guy here.

536
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 4: He's offering to pay for me to go to schools

537
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 4: to get this license. You know, here I am today,

538
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 4: I'm pretty much paid to see the country. You know,

539
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 4: But it takes a lot to give someone their life back.

540
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,360
Speaker 4: And I don't mean life as breathing. I mean we

541
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 4: walk out. We have no job, we have no social security,

542
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 4: we have no retirement, we don't have a license, we

543
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 4: don't have an ID. I had to fight to get

544
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 4: my birth certificate with my name on it. And if

545
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 4: not for the Innocence Project and other lawyers involved, then

546
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 4: I don't know where I'd be right now. More programs

547
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 4: need to be put in place for exona reeves, because

548
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 4: someone who actually gets out on parole has more resources

549
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 4: at their disposal than someone like myself. And you know

550
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 4: that should not be the case. You know, Being where

551
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 4: I am now is it's a blessing you know, and

552
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 4: coming from where I've been, will but Reduce said it best.

553
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 4: My worst day out here is better than my best

554
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 4: day in prison. So I think I thank everybody for

555
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 4: helping me out every day. I try every day to

556
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 4: do it right, So.

557
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 3: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you

558
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 3: get your podcasts, it really helps.

559
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 2: And I'm a proud donor to the Ennisis Project, and

560
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 2: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

561
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 2: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

562
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 2: to anisonsproject dot org to learn how to donate and

563
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 2: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

564
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 2: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is

565
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 2: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

566
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 3: Be sure to follow us on.

567
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 2: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook.

568
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 3: At Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

569
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Vlahm is a production of Lava

570
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 2: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one